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JCpies
31st Jul 2013, 15:54
I won't move from this spot until you announce the game.

I won't eat any food either.

Ashpolt
31st Jul 2013, 16:16
Didn't you hear? The Fall is Deus Ex 4! It's a bold new direction for the franchise.

Don't hit me.

68_pie
31st Jul 2013, 16:39
I won't move from this spot until you announce the game.

I won't eat any food either.

YES! DX4 not DXHR2!


Don't hit me.

Don't make me ;)

JCpies
31st Jul 2013, 17:32
I ate some food, but I swear I'll hunger strike tomorrow.

Shralla
31st Jul 2013, 21:13
Pretty much this. In less than a month, Human Revolution will have been out for two years. I'm not looking for yearly iterations or anything, but if you're going to call this a franchise, it's about time to announce a real sequel. I don't even expect it to be done for another year or two at least, but come on. Show us the lessons you learned from Human Revolution, and the other games that have come out since then.

CyberP
31st Jul 2013, 21:27
"Be patient"

Edit: Besides, GMDX should be more than enough to satisfy you all till DX4 ;)

Ha ha, OK, I'll stop. Seriously though go play it, I demand detailed feedback, "Amazing mod" etc isn't good enough, especially from the hardcore fans which this product primarily targets.

68_pie
31st Jul 2013, 22:21
"Be patient"

Edit: Besides, GMDX should be more than enough to satisfy you all till DX4 ;)

Ha ha, OK, I'll stop. Seriously though go play it, I demand detailed feedback, "Amazing mod" etc isn't good enough, especially from the hardcore fans which this product primarily targets.

You wanna keep your self-promotion to one thread?

Spyhopping
31st Jul 2013, 22:33
Yes yes I shall play GMDX Mr. CyberP. I need to grab a new copy of DX though because mine has gone missing. I am going to play Revision soon too.

As for DX4 I can't wait to see what they may or may not have brewing over there. The first things that come to mind for improvement would be the general NPC chatter, and there being more non-augmentation geared items to read and interact with the world. I want to walk around the city and hear more people talking about what they had for their lunch (riviting, I know.)

Jerion
31st Jul 2013, 22:39
You wanna keep your self-promotion to one thread?

Not a commercial project, promoting it a bit is fine.

CyberP
31st Jul 2013, 22:53
Not a commercial project, promoting it a bit is fine.

Thanks. Good luck with Revision btw. I will be sure to play.


Yes yes I shall play GMDX Mr. CyberP. I need to grab a new copy of DX though because mine has gone missing. I am going to play Revision soon too.

As for DX4 I can't wait to see what they may or may not have brewing over there. The first things that come to mind for improvment would be the general NPC chatter, and there being more non-augmentation geared items to read and interact with the world. I want to walk around the city and hear more people talking about what they had for their lunch (riviting, I know.)

Enjoy. Choose hardcore mode, I know you have what it takes going off of your posts (refusing to use the lock-on targeting in The Fall for example :thumb:). "Hardcore" mode may be a little misleading as it's not really all that hard, but "GMDX" mode would have been misleading too as some may think that that difficulty is mandatory for all of the mods features, when in fact it's optional (but highly recommended!).

Agreed on your wants for DX4 too, though I'd add more points or those I already have posted in previous rants of mine.


You wanna keep your self-promotion to one thread?

Hey, I cannot afford marketing of any form except my own feeble efforts, and relying on word of mouth and amazing folk like B1skit :). Since the mod is for veterans only, that slims down chances of recognition further.
I will continue these shameless self promotional posts for a while yet, but the frequency of them will drop now as the quality of the mod should speak for itself and people will talk.
As for you, I condemn you for denying yourself "Deus Ex on a whole new level" -Snake04

:p

WildcatPhoenix
1st Aug 2013, 00:10
YES! DX4 not DXHR2!


It will be interesting to see which direction EM/Square decide to go with the next Deus game. With the success of Human Revolution, both critically and commercially, you'd have to assume there's a lot of pressure to replicate the same formula in any future sequels/spinoffs (i.e.: a more "streamlined" approach to the DX formula, continuation of mainstream mechanics like health regen, 3rd person cover, radar, etc).

Or maybe, just maybe, they might decide the brand has been sufficiently reestablished to where they can take a riskier, more complex approach to DX4. Call me a cynic, but I wouldn't bet on it.

merrick97
1st Aug 2013, 00:50
The geniuses up SE will probably force Eidos Montreal to add in multiplayer like they did with Tomb Raider.

FrankCSIS
1st Aug 2013, 05:00
It will be interesting to see which direction EM/Square decide to go with the next Deus game. With the success of Human Revolution, both critically and commercially, you'd have to assume there's a lot of pressure to replicate the same formula in any future sequels/spinoffs (i.e.: a more "streamlined" approach to the DX formula, continuation of mainstream mechanics like health regen, 3rd person cover, radar, etc).

Or maybe, just maybe, they might decide the brand has been sufficiently reestablished to where they can take a riskier, more complex approach to DX4. Call me a cynic, but I wouldn't bet on it.

It's funny because it really could go both ways. Some franchises have made sure to add more granularity in their second games, making them more developed, and pushing its logic to new extremes, while others have notoriously cut on it to bank on rewarding mechanics only.

The new game, if there ever is one (and to be frank I'm surprised nothing is even hinted at so far), will be very telling on how honest the studio was about delivering a DX game.

AlexOfSpades
1st Aug 2013, 05:02
Or maybe, just maybe, they might decide the brand has been sufficiently reestablished to where they can take a riskier, more complex approach to DX4. Call me a cynic, but I wouldn't bet on it.

*Looks to Thi4f*
*Looks back*

Haha, nope

Edit: If DX4 is announced, will we migrate to DX4 forums or will we stay here?

Ilves
1st Aug 2013, 08:18
The new game, if there ever is one (and to be frank I'm surprised nothing is even hinted at so far)[...]

I recall some tidbit on either JJB's Tumblr or Twitter about a year or so ago that the team had started working on a new project, post HR.

Could have been The Fall, of course.


And JCPie, I support you, man, but stay hydrated!!! :]

Spyhopping
1st Aug 2013, 09:34
*Looks to Thi4f*
*Looks back*

Haha, nope

Edit: If DX4 is announced, will we migrate to DX4 forums or will we stay here?

I'd be tempted to migrate because I'm a sucker for novelty.


I recall some tidbit on either JJB's Tumblr or Twitter about a year or so ago that the team had started working on a new project, post HR.


:whistle:

Ilves
1st Aug 2013, 09:50
:whistle:

Bah, you mods and your omniscience. :<

Ashpolt
1st Aug 2013, 10:01
I recall some tidbit on either JJB's Tumblr or Twitter about a year or so ago that the team had started working on a new project, post HR.


:whistle:

:whistle::D

Spyhopping
1st Aug 2013, 10:08
You see, what you've done there is combine two smiles so that it looks like the yellow smiley is nonchalantly dragging a hook down the face of the green smiley who is really quite enjoying it. But yes.

:naughty:

Shall we all have a grand time telling each other what we'd like to see improved on/retained in a DX4? Let's hear three of each.

Ilves
1st Aug 2013, 10:09
:whistle: :D

Aaaaaargh! Et tu, Ashpolt?

So what's the penalty for breaking that NDA? Nothing too serious, right? You guys like cookies? I have lots of cookies.

Darthassin
1st Aug 2013, 11:44
Where is the damn Director's Cut!?

WildcatPhoenix
1st Aug 2013, 13:10
You see, what you've done there is combine two smiles so that it looks like the yellow smiley is nonchalantly dragging a hook down the face of the green smiley who is really quite enjoying it. But yes.

:naughty:

Shall we all have a grand time telling each other what we'd like to see improved on/retained in a DX4? Let's hear three of each.

I'm game.

Retained:
-Hacking minigame (with more depth and variance, but not used to open mechanical doors).
-Conversation battles in 1st person
-Inventory tetris

Improved:
-Melee
-Radar, regen health, etc as augmentations
-Better xp balance

Ashpolt
1st Aug 2013, 14:54
Aaaaaargh! Et tu, Ashpolt?

So what's the penalty for breaking that NDA? Nothing too serious, right? You guys like cookies? I have lots of cookies.

I am not under any kind of NDA. I am, however, a teasing bastid. :D

68_pie
1st Aug 2013, 15:54
Shall we all have a grand time telling each other what we'd like to see improved on/retained in a DX4? Let's hear three of each.

Retain:

- Michael McCann
- ????
- ????

Improve on:

- New dev team
- New engine
- New policy on fan interaction


I am not under any kind of NDA. I am, however, a teasing bastid. :D

But do you actually know something?

Jerion
1st Aug 2013, 16:44
*Looks to Thi4f*
*Looks back*

Haha, nope

Edit: If DX4 is announced, will we migrate to DX4 forums or will we stay here?

Plans have already been drawn up for this eventuality.


I recall some tidbit on either JJB's Tumblr or Twitter about a year or so ago that the team had started working on a new project, post HR.

Could have been The Fall, of course.

Could have been.


I am not under any kind of NDA. I am, however, a teasing bastid. :D

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t191/Zeoman1001/ScreenShot2013-04-01at120902PM.png

AlexOfSpades
1st Aug 2013, 17:23
Alex Jacobson's nose is huge.

Ashpolt
1st Aug 2013, 23:50
But do you actually know something?

I know many things. Are any of them about the future of the Deus Ex franchise? All I know is my gut says maybe.

WildcatPhoenix
2nd Aug 2013, 00:41
In news that should surprise absolutely no one, I have a lot more things I hope to see improved in DX4. But we were asked to give three. :cool:

xzx
2nd Aug 2013, 06:15
Ha ha. I beat you all to the punch. I purposely avoided playing the end of Dues EX Invisible War, so I could be entertained while waiting for newer ones. Bwhaha!

JCpies
2nd Aug 2013, 17:30
And JCPie, I support you, man, but stay hydrated!!! :]

Thanks man, it means a lot. There is a New York cheesecake in the fridge and it's really taunting me.


Retain:

- Michael McCann
- ????
- ????

Improve on:

- New dev team
- New engine
- New policy on fan interaction

Buuuuurn.

Ilves
2nd Aug 2013, 17:44
Dude, if 24 hours of fasting brought down the head honcho (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=138778), then imagine what resisting the cheescake will accomplish! 0.o

JCpies
2nd Aug 2013, 17:57
Deus Ex remake and Deus Ex 6?

Jerion
2nd Aug 2013, 19:11
Ha ha. I beat you all to the punch. I purposely avoided playing the end of Dues EX Invisible War, so I could be entertained while waiting for newer ones. Bwhaha!

A clever strategy, but at what cost? :(

xzx
3rd Aug 2013, 10:26
A clever strategy, but at what cost? :(

I thought it'd be more of a cost if I finished it because I never played the original and it was driving me in circles.
It was too good of a game to know the ending with such amateur playing by myself. :worship: LOL I don't really live in a high traffic video game-zone. :naughty:

besyuziki
6th Aug 2013, 11:36
Shall we all have a grand time telling each other what we'd like to see improved on/retained in a DX4? Let's hear three of each.

Improved on:
1. Melee. Obviously melee combat should be more than automatic takedowns which cost energy. The next game needs melee weapons, including a riot prod. Giving Adam deadly armblades did not really go hand in hand (hehe) with the idea of optional augs.
2. Health system. You know, an optional aug which costs energy for health regeneration, limb damage, gore, dismemberment and everything.
3. Boss fights. We shouldn't have to kill a bullet sponge boss in a Quake or Unreal arena to progress in a Deus Ex game.
3. The experience system should be rebalanced. The system in HR grants maximum points per enemy for non-lethal headshots (which do make a difference in the long run). Also, you still get points for exploration after completing the objective in an area. The best thing is to is to give points for objective progress IMO.
3. Pre-rendered cutscenes.
3. Dark, muddy, 120p pre-rendered cutscenes.
3. The illuminati stuff in the plot could be more subtle.
3. The engine.

Retained:
1. Grid inventory instead of what we had in Invisible War.
2. Voice acting.
3. Music.
3. The hacking minigame.
3. The "dialogue minigame", if you will.
3. Weapon variety (except melee) and customization options.

Karpaw
6th Aug 2013, 16:10
Square Enix is stumbling around with no clear sense of where to go, The Thief reboot looks like a cluster**** in the making and much like Bioware expecting Dragon Age 2 to attract "the Call of Duty audience", EM thinks chasing the Angry Birds crowd with low-effort cash-ins will gain them a goose laying golden eggs. Judging by the state of things, we'll be lucky to get DX4 before the series goes back into hibernation for another decade.

Psychomorph
7th Aug 2013, 01:36
DX4 is probably my most awaited game right now.

JCpies
7th Aug 2013, 08:09
DX4 is probably my most awaited game right now.

But what about CoD Ghosts?????

Pldgmygrievance
15th Aug 2013, 05:51
Can someone explain to me what people mean when they say that human revolution "streamlined "the Deus ex experience? I understand the health thing, I didn't mind the regenerating health but if I had to choose I would pick the original health system.

But other than that I am confused about the streamline comments.

Also I don't understand the opposition to the cover system that was used. I know that this cover system has become popular in a lot of current games but what are the other options you guys would rather see in a Deus Ex game?

Shralla
15th Aug 2013, 07:43
How about first-person only with leaning? You have a third-person cover system, a radar, an augmentation to see through walls, and ANOTHER augmentation to TRACK people through walls. You have augmentations that activate automatically or are just passive, with a whopping four active augmentations to best cater to a console gamepad. You have an automatically sorting inventory. You have soft ceiling jump height caps to ensure nobody reaches areas they aren't "supposed" to. There are no animal NPCs. "Merchant" NPCs have been turned into a regular and expected thing in every location in the game, and you never need to do favors for them to access their goods. Shadow-based stealth (and in fact shadows, period) are out in order to further the art design of the game as well as aforementioned third-person cover system. There are no mechanical locks and therefore lockpicks. No multitools. There's a ridiculous lack of interactive items in the game. In Deus Ex it took thirty seconds to find enough stuff to stack high enough to get to the second floor, regardless of where you were. In HR it takes 3 minutes or more, and that's being generous.

68_pie
15th Aug 2013, 09:45
Basically what Shralla said, plus - no melee combat, invulnerable while using certain augs, all the cutscenes, not just forced regen health but also the lack of bodypart health.

In terms of cover system I'd either have the traditional FP+Lean or something like the FP+cover used in RO2:

8E0tVdEN9nQ

or CoJ:BiB:

b4EQFGd-Wq4

Edit: I remember watching a prerelease dev video for RO2 that was just about the cover system but I can't seem to find it now.

CyberP
15th Aug 2013, 10:38
with a whopping four active augmentations to best cater to a console gamepad.

"Best" is a matter of opinion. I prefer my posted system that would have allowed many active augs on consoles. :)


You have an automatically sorting inventory.

This was entirely optional and had no impact on our experience. The good type of hand-holding. Truly optional.

But yes, DX:HR, whilst great, is not as deep or intelligent in design as DX.

Jerion
15th Aug 2013, 14:55
Can someone explain to me what people mean when they say that human revolution "streamlined "the Deus ex experience? I understand the health thing, I didn't mind the regenerating health but if I had to choose I would pick the original health system.

But other than that I am confused about the streamline comments.

Also I don't understand the opposition to the cover system that was used. I know that this cover system has become popular in a lot of current games but what are the other options you guys would rather see in a Deus Ex game?

Short version is that the augmentation/skills system was simplified into a hybrid "augs-only" system, and while the method they chose for combining the two wasn't inherently flawed, the assortment of augs they opted to use in the game and the lack of mutual exclusivity in that system made the process of character development simpler than what was found in its predecessor. Between that, the takedown system (instead of RealMelee™) and things like the boss fights, the overall game was no less intricately sophisticated, but it was less complicated from a player perspective. As for a cover system: if the "cinematic" ladder-climbing was left behind and the TP cover system replaced with Thief's Peeking (or a variation on it), I think the game would be improved.

If there's one thing the team behind DX:HR has demonstrated though -- and you see some of this with not only the Director's Cut but the Missing Link DLC as well -- it's that they learn from their mistakes and are perfectly willing to improve on what was flawed. In any medium, the thing to learn is that when you start with a simple base, you can take the time to get a lot of things right. When something is simple, elegant, you can carefully start building in complexity without losing that elegance. Human Revolution was really an excellent starting point for that process. So future installments which build on the DX:HR design, that add careful changes and touches to to increase depth and consistency, that's the way to go and I think that's what we're going to see.

CyberP
15th Aug 2013, 15:09
When something is simple, elegant, you can carefully start building in complexity without losing that elegance. Human Revolution was really an excellent starting point for that process. So future installments which build on the DX:HR design, that add careful changes and touches to to increase depth and consistency, that's the way to go and I think that's what we're going to see.

I truly hope this is what EM are planning but after the Fall and Thief I have my doubts.

About the streamlining: There are other things. The sim design is basically streamlined in a sense. Interactivity & reactivity, choice & consequence, replayability, level design, health system....it's all a bit streamlined really minus some great things such as the inventory system.

Jerion
15th Aug 2013, 15:15
I truly hope this is what EM are planning but after the Fall and Thief I have my doubts.

About the streamlining: There are other things. The sim design is basically streamlined in a sense. Interactivity & reactivity, choice & consequence, replayability, level design....it's all a bit streamlined really.

It's certainly the impression I got back in June.

Thief is being made by another team, so different people are behind it. The Fall is targeting another platform type and all of its simplifications were in service to the nature of the platform. It is many things, but the future of the core of the series is not one of them.

CyberP
15th Aug 2013, 15:22
Thief is being made by another team, so different people are behind it. The Fall is targeting another platform type and all of its simplifications were in service to the nature of the platform.

I am aware of this but Square-Enix are the entity which funds the games and ultimately dictates some things.


It is many things, but the future of the core of the series is not one of them.

That's very reassuring.

Build. Expand. Why is it only Call of Duty seems to be expanding in content? Exaggeration of course but not far from the truth. Something is very wrong.

Oh, for clarity I meant build, expand and fine tune on the code and assets already in place, not build on the franchise in unworthy directions (movie, mobile game) :p There are other possible IP's for that.

And I still want to develop that DLC. It wouldn't be a hardcore difficulty DLC, it would just make the game more DX: more immersive, more replayable, better choice & consequence etc. It's a great game that can come close to perfection in just a few months work by two talented individuals :) lol, I should really stop these public pitches and take it up a level ;)

68_pie
15th Aug 2013, 15:57
In any medium, the thing to learn is that when you start with a simple base, you can take the time to get a lot of things right. When something is simple, elegant, you can carefully start building in complexity without losing that elegance. Human Revolution was really an excellent starting point for that process. So future installments which build on the DX:HR design, that add careful changes and touches to to increase depth and consistency, that's the way to go and I think that's what we're going to see.

I know they were made by a different dev but surely the starting point should have been the previous games?

Jerion
15th Aug 2013, 16:32
I know they were made by a different dev but surely the starting point should have been the previous games?

Well...not quite. The first one got the balance of all its elements damn near perfect- that's what a lot of people love about it- but its individual aspects weren't all that well done in the first place. The shooting, the hacking, the stealth, conversations...individually, not very strong (though the reactive conversations are still mostly unchallenged, even today). What the EM team have done is tear it down, focus on the individual aspects and build up from there. They've got combat more or less right, hacking down solid, conversations are definitely on the right track. Stealth will probably evolve; ditto augmentations, level design...you see where I'm going with this? As they get the individual elements polished/expanded and get the overall "balance" better, the games will improve. What they've done with Human Revolution is build a foundation for working towards getting the Deus Ex style of game just right, instead of aiming for perfection the first time, missing and going home.

CyberP
15th Aug 2013, 17:06
Well...not quite. The first one got the balance of all its elements damn near perfect- that's what a lot of people love about it- but it's individual aspects weren't all that well done in the first place. The shooting, the hacking, the stealth, conversations...individually, not very strong (though the reactive conversations are still mostly unchallenged, even today). What the EM team have done is tear it down, focus on the individual aspects and build up from there. They've got combat more or less right, hacking down solid, conversations are definitely on the right track. Stealth will probably evolve; ditto augmentations, level design...you see where I'm going with this? As they get the individual elements polished/expanded and get the overall "balance" better, the games will improve. What they've done with Human Revolution is build a foundation for working towards getting the Deus Ex style of game just right, instead of aiming for perfection the first time, missing and going home.

They did focus on those few things and left behind too much in the process.

Opinions: I prefer the stealth in DX1 by far, shooting equal (I love both styles, though HR's combat AI definitely wins here), hacking systems I prefer DX1 by far, but if we compare HR's excellent mini-game to a bar running down then of course HR's is better, but the related systems make me prefer hacking as a whole in DX1, conversations, well, the content and reactivity was better in DX1, but the voice acting as well as boss battles were very good in HR, and the latter in first person!
For me, DX1 still wins on those core elements alone only just, a close call. With improvements, the "right" type of improvements, then they can win me over.

-Sort the hacking systems: no xp & credit rewards, automatic password/doorcode display a toggleable bool in the options (hardcoded false in GMDX mode), reintroduce lockpick/multitools to substitute half of the overused hackable devices.
-Give us first person leaning and disable the cover system on the hardest difficulty. I love third person games, and whilst the cover system does add an interesting element to gameplay it ruins gameplay balance & is a little immersion breaking. The reason I am happy for it to stay in the game is because it is entirely optional as long as lean is introduced. On hardest difficuly disable cover, enable leaning. Give Me Deus Ex mode.

These are just a few of many changes I visualize for this potential DLC. I have written a lengthy design document concept but it remains classified, for now.

Shralla
15th Aug 2013, 19:10
This was entirely optional and had no impact on our experience. The good type of hand-holding. Truly optional.

This is absolutely one of those things that, if it's there at all, you might as well use it. Especially with the stupid ammo management system. They only gave it to you because they jacked up the inventory system so much in the first place. There is no need for the inventory to be so large. Remove ammo from the inventory, shrink the inventory, and get rid of the automatic sorting completely. Nobody will miss it.

68_pie
15th Aug 2013, 20:06
Well...not quite. The first one got the balance of all its elements damn near perfect- that's what a lot of people love about it- but its individual aspects weren't all that well done in the first place. The shooting, the hacking, the stealth, conversations...individually, not very strong (though the reactive conversations are still mostly unchallenged, even today). What the EM team have done is tear it down, focus on the individual aspects and build up from there. They've got combat more or less right, hacking down solid, conversations are definitely on the right track. Stealth will probably evolve; ditto augmentations, level design...you see where I'm going with this? As they get the individual elements polished/expanded and get the overall "balance" better, the games will improve. What they've done with Human Revolution is build a foundation for working towards getting the Deus Ex style of game just right, instead of aiming for perfection the first time, missing and going home.

I guess I would have preferred a top-down approach. I'd much rather EM had started with the thought: "what mood/feeling are we trying to evoke when someone plays this game" rather than "we have to have this and this and this".

One of my big complaints about HR is that none of the systems/gameplay/level design feel organic. It was very much a "we have to have shooting and stealth and hacking and a bit of talking" rather than "we have this environment and we want the player to have tools within that to do almost anything".


get rid of the automatic sorting completely. Nobody will miss it.

Or just include an auto-sort button (or a menu option) like Arcanum had if people are that fussed.

Jerion
15th Aug 2013, 20:22
I guess I would have preferred a top-down approach. I'd much rather EM had started with the thought: "what mood/feeling are we trying to evoke when someone plays this game" rather than "we have to have this and this and this".

One of my big complaints about HR is that none of the systems/gameplay/level design feel organic. It was very much a "we have to have shooting and stealth and hacking and a bit of talking" rather than "we have this environment and we want the player to have tools within that to do almost anything".

Not sure that's really a practical approach; DX might just be too big to generally design from a top-down approach. In terms of environment stuff though...A lot of the level design in Human Revolution was built around gameplay function rather than "livable" practicality or sensibility. It's like the difference between a game being "scripted" and being "systems-based".

Kvltism
16th Aug 2013, 08:51
Remove ammo from the inventory, shrink the inventory, and get rid of the automatic sorting completely. Nobody will miss it.

+1

Auto-sorting was really cumbersome, especially after the first Detroit sequence. The feature failed at its most basic function - optimising your inventory space. Redundant.

CyberP
16th Aug 2013, 10:03
+1

Auto-sorting was really cumbersome, especially after the first Detroit sequence. The feature failed at its most basic function - optimising your inventory space. Redundant.

Wait, what? Why are you people even using the auto sort? I never used it once. I was under the impression that the feature is for people who do not like manual inventory sorting.

@Shralla: Why do you want ammo gone from the inventory? It's more immersive and involving. So what is your argument here? Why do you dislike it?



One of my big complaints about HR is that none of the systems/gameplay/level design feel organic. It was very much a "we have to have shooting and stealth and hacking and a bit of talking" rather than "we have this environment and we want the player to have tools within that to do almost anything".


Agreed.

CyberP
16th Aug 2013, 23:38
This is absolutely one of those things that, if it's there at all, you might as well use it. Especially with the stupid ammo management system. They only gave it to you because they jacked up the inventory system so much in the first place. There is no need for the inventory to be so large. Remove ammo from the inventory, shrink the inventory, and get rid of the automatic sorting completely. Nobody will miss it.

Oh, I only just saw this.

What makes ammo management in the inventory "stupid"? Besides from unbalanced stacking values, this is an improvement over DX1 IMHO.

As for the auto sort: meh, I love inventory tetris far too much to use auto sort. I use the auto sort in Arx Fatalis only because attempting to move stacked items demands you move them one by one, which sucks, but every other game with a grid-based inventory I love every minute: System Shock 2, Deus Ex, Resident Evil 4 etc.
I'm not sure what it's like on PC, but in the console versions it's a toggleable bool in the options menu set to false by default iirc. I just left it alone and never had it bother me, which I am thankful for. Truly optional. The system wasn't originally designed only for auto sorting and manual sorting added last minute without much thought, which is something I wish I could say for certain other systems :(

WildcatPhoenix
17th Aug 2013, 01:23
Oh, I only just saw this.

What makes ammo management in the inventory "stupid"? Besides from unbalanced stacking values, this is an improvement over DX1 IMHO.

I actually agree (hey look! I'm saying nice things about DXHR!). I get annoyed in DX1 by being unable to pick up ammo that I already have "too much" of. In DXHR you have the option carry as much of it as you prefer, but at the added cost of having to make a decision about your other inventory items. It's one of the few moments where DXHR is actually more complex than its predecessor, and that's almost always a good thing.

CyberP
17th Aug 2013, 02:26
I actually agree (hey look! I'm saying nice things about DXHR!). I get annoyed in DX1 by being unable to pick up ammo that I already have "too much" of. In DXHR you have the option carry as much of it as you prefer, but at the added cost of having to make a decision about your other inventory items. It's one of the few moments where DXHR is actually more complex than its predecessor, and that's almost always a good thing.

Oh, another positive of HR: Limited ammo to be found. In DX1 there is ammo absolutely everywhere, it took me a while to get lethal weapons ammo found down to a challenging, thought-provoking level in GMDX without having to code every pickup to only give 1 ammo or something, which would be silly.

Fitzchiv
31st Aug 2013, 19:41
This seems the most suitable thread to ask, but has ANYTHING been said about a potential DE:HR sequel or AAA release in the franchise? Be it a nod and a wink from a mod, or a blog post from some software engineer? Anything?

Seems way too long ago now I waited for the new PC Zone edition to be put on the shelf to get the first look at DE:HR, it's time we had that anticipation again!

Obviously this will have been done to death in terms of "why are we waiting" but I've scoured the threads and not found much to suggest there's an announcement even in the distance.

Jerion
31st Aug 2013, 20:22
Yes. I won't get more specific than that, but to help you out a little bit, I will say that if you've been paying attention to what various developers have said both at E3 and since, then you should also pay attention to what they are not saying.

However: In general, EM's track record is to remain silent until there is something worthwhile to be said. This is pretty much standard practice in the AAA space; DX:HR and Thief were announced early for developer recruitment purposes. This is changing a bit; they're certainly becoming more open towards the community. When it comes to announcements, they'll confirm when they've been working on something long enough to back up the claim. Also, right now the big marketing push from EM is on Thief, which will be launching early next year. Once Thief is out the door, they'll probably refocus the spotlight on the DX series.

Psychomorph
2nd Sep 2013, 01:10
DX4 would be awesome. They did good with DX3, but I'd like the fourth to get back closer to the original and improve on the good things it had on it's own.

Unfortunately I believe in the future as a state of further degeneration when it comes to games, so DX4 may become not what we wish for.

Berr
2nd Sep 2013, 07:54
This seems the most suitable thread to ask, but has ANYTHING been said about a potential DE:HR sequel or AAA release in the franchise? Be it a nod and a wink from a mod, or a blog post from some software engineer? Anything?

In an interview (at E3?) when Jean-François Dugas was asked about DX4 he said something like 'To all the fans of DXHR waiting for a sequel, I don't have an announcement today, but I have a message for you: be patient.' Plus he said a bunch of stuff about how the DXHR team are not working on Thief, or much on DXTF, and are busy working on an unannounced project.

It was basically the strongest confirmation of a DX4 sequel that you can get without officially confirming it.

I can say it Jerion, because I have no inside information at all ;)

CyberP
2nd Sep 2013, 11:27
In an interview (at E3?) when Jean-François Dugas was asked about DX4 he said something like 'To all the fans of DXHR waiting for a sequel, I don't have an announcement today, but I have a message for you: be patient.'.


No it wasn't quite like that, however the words "be patient" he did say.

Karpaw
5th Sep 2013, 17:36
After Thief is released and flops, I'm sure EM will hurry to get DX4 out the door. If we're lucky, they might even abstain from making it a F2P multiplayer-only title.

CyberP
5th Sep 2013, 18:04
After Thief is released and flops, I'm sure EM will hurry to get DX4 out the door. If we're lucky, they might even abstain from making it a F2P multiplayer-only title.

It wont flop. They have the almighty power of marketing and the fact it will be an early next gen game. I don't expect it to do too well though, but you never really know. Everybody is eating up PAYDAY 2 right now so any old trash can do well, apparently.

Shralla
5th Sep 2013, 19:22
Just because you don't get it doesn't make it trash. Not to get all stereotypical, but seriously. Payday is a fun game. If being a fun game isn't enough for you, oh well, don't play it. Still doesn't make it trash.

AlexOfSpades
5th Sep 2013, 19:52
It wont flop. They have the almighty power of marketing and the fact it will be an early next gen game. I don't expect it to do too well though, but you never really know. Everybody is eating up PAYDAY 2 right now so any old trash can do well, apparently.

Dunno bout Thief, man. Veterans are hating it because its not true to the classics, and the casuals think its just a Dishonored/AssCreed rip-off. It tried to please two markets and i think it failed there. I believe its going to flop just like DmC did.

Jerion
5th Sep 2013, 20:14
Dunno bout Thief, man. Veterans are hating it because its not true to the classics, and the casuals think its just a Dishonored/AssCreed rip-off. It tried to please two markets and i think it failed there. I believe its going to flop just like DmC did.

Veterans who know it are good with it. Veterans that look on from the sidelines see only what they think is wrong with it. That's just how it goes.

AlexOfSpades
5th Sep 2013, 20:22
Veterans who know it are good with it. Veterans that look on from the sidelines see only what they think is wrong with it. That's just how it goes.

Guess we need a demo then. :naughty:

CyberP
5th Sep 2013, 20:33
Just because you don't get it doesn't make it trash. Not to get all stereotypical, but seriously. Payday is a fun game. If being a fun game isn't enough for you, oh well, don't play it. Still doesn't make it trash.

You mean hypocritical? :p

PAYDAY 2 is standard cookie-cutter....OK, just cookie cutter. Some may enjoy it, those with low standards ;)
In all seriousness, yes, some may consider it be fun and worth their time and that is fine, but what really pisses me off is this:


The news recounts numbers so impressive on the pre-order count that they are actually in the black and posting profits before the game has even launched.

Did this happen to any of the Deus Ex games, or any other game with years of sweat & passion put into it? No. Ok, PD probably had a much lower budget than most games because it's mostly a rehash but where is the justice for any of the better games?
And dont tell me PAYDAY 2 was developed with a fiery passion over 4 years or whatever. It was churned out as a product of business, nothing more. It has only been just over a year and a half since the first Payday game was released.
It is also plagued with bugs, if you need more convincing.

I am happy for games like this to be churned out, if people want to support practices like this then who am I to stop them? but the cookie cutter shouldn't get the support and sales that games made out of blood, sweat and a lot of love deserve instead.

68_pie
5th Sep 2013, 21:16
Veterans who know it are good with it. Veterans that look on from the sidelines see only what they think is wrong with it. That's just how it goes.

Wut

Shralla
5th Sep 2013, 21:26
"Cookie cutter" implies that there are a ton of other games that Payday is copying that offer the same experience, but that's not even remotely true. The reason Payday is fun is because it's a unique game. The "cookie cutter" label here, I don't really know what you're doing with it, but unless it's a cutter shaped like C'thulhu it doesn't really stand up. Also you can say it's a business move all you want, but that doesn't make it true.

And the budget has everything to do with what you're saying. You might as well be complaining about games that make their development funds through kickstarter. Low-budget risks pay off. Deus Ex was a high budget game playing it safe, of course it didn't make all its money back through pre-orders. It didn't even deserve to. Maybe they should have spent less money on it and made a better, more unique game?

Jerion
5th Sep 2013, 21:28
Wut

After what has been going on with Thief and what went on here from 2009-2011? Sure, there are and were flaws, but fans that haven't played the game tend to focus on those at the expense of the larger picture (health regen, highlighting, to name a couple). Probably at this point because they don't really know anything about the larger picture. This pattern repeats itself- and it will happen again, if not here, then on the next DX game forum. :)

Shralla
5th Sep 2013, 21:42
After what has been going on with Thief and what went on here from 2009-2011? Sure, there are and were flaws, but fans that haven't played the game tend to focus on those at the expense of the larger picture (health regen, highlighting, to name a couple)

The larger picture is only made up of individual parts. Fans that haven't played the game? Give me a break. Fans who have played the game complain about the exact same things, because those parts of the game are FLAWED and make the game itself flawed, and less enjoyable because of it.

CyberP
5th Sep 2013, 21:55
"

Huh? What exactly makes Payday unique? GTA:SA and plenty other games have pulled off heists on a grander scale.
I'm not sure how you can defend this game.

Jerion
5th Sep 2013, 21:55
The larger picture is only made up of individual parts. Fans that haven't played the game? Give me a break. Fans who have played the game complain about the exact same things, because those parts of the game are FLAWED and make the game itself flawed, and less enjoyable because of it.

Accurate, but missing the point. If a picture is made up of twenty parts and you've only seen two or three parts, you still have a terrible understanding of the whole picture.

I am/was talking about what happens before the game comes out, that time when only devs, media and a few lucky fans have played it. What happens after release is everybody gets a good understanding of the game, flaws and all. That's not what's happening with Thief, and that's not what was happening with DX:HR at the times I mentioned. Whether or not concern over those flaws is vindicated is not important for this point. The fact that the flaws (or "controversial bits" if you like) are what are known prior to launch- and what are perpetually considered among fans- is the point.

Also- in this particular case- the fans and media who have played Thief are coming away with a rather different opinion of the game than the ones who have not. I personally am in a pretty good position to know this.

Shralla
5th Sep 2013, 23:11
Huh? What exactly makes Payday unique? GTA:SA and plenty other games have pulled off heists on a grander scale.

At which point you're ignoring the fact that it's multiplayer only, and also an FPS. There is literally no comparison to be made between San Andreas and Payday, and the fact that you're making it suggests to me that you don't actually know what Payday is about. Not to make that assumption twice in one day, but I mean really. A third-person, single-player, open world action game having heists, regardless of quality, is not even REMOTELY comparable to Payday in ANY way.


That's not what's happening with Thief, and that's not what was happening with DX:HR at the times I mentioned. Whether or not concern over those flaws is vindicated is not important for this point.

Only it is, because most of the things that were said before release ended up being true. The idea that you can't determine, for the most part, whether a game is going to be good based on the information provided before release is totally bunk. Those things you mentioned detracted fantastically from Deus Ex, and not having jumping is going to detract even more fantastically from Thief. We know a fair bit about the "larger picture" and that picture is Andy Warhol, not Rembrandt.


Also- in this particular case- the fans and media who have played Thief are coming away with a rather different opinion of the game than the ones who have not. I personally am in a pretty good position to know this.

Those are the same people building strawmen to argue for the lack of freejumping instead of looking at it realistically and responding properly, and were also in a generally positive state of mind going into it due to the circumstances surrounding it.

CyberP
5th Sep 2013, 23:25
is not even REMOTELY comparable to Payday in ANY way.


That's a huge exaggeration. You also haven't answered the question of what makes the game unique by the way.

Meh, I give up on this argument. You win, but it's still cookie-cutter :P

Shralla
5th Sep 2013, 23:51
What make it unique is the fact that there's nothing else like it. Do I really have to give you the dictionary definition so you'll understand? There are no other games like Payday. That's the opposite of cookie cutter.

CyberP
6th Sep 2013, 00:30
What make it unique is the fact that there's nothing else like it. Do I really have to give you the dictionary definition so you'll understand? There are no other games like Payday. That's the opposite of cookie cutter.

Lmao. Try all you want but you cannot defend it, and you apparently cannot point out any qualities it has either.

Anyway, Shrally, lets stop. Let's just agree to disagree. You're laying on the ad hominems a bit too frequently too :/

AlexOfSpades
6th Sep 2013, 02:59
"As it stands right now, Payday 2, while it won’t be for everyone, is a lot of fun. Although the stealth mechanics are basic, there’s enough strategic depth and teamwork required so that stealthing missions can be challenging, and extremely satisfying when successful." - NZGamer

"Payday 2 is undoubtedly the biggest surprise of august 2013. [...] Even the price of 30 euros was leaving us skeptical, but Payday 2 hacks your brains with its intense and addictive gameplay. It's simple and it works, outpacing the ad's promises. With an almost unlimited replayability, Payday 2 will challenge your brains with multitasking between a heist to manage, a team to keep alive and hordes of aggressive cops. Simply brilliant!" - JeuxActu

I dont think there's any online CoOp bank-heist tactical-shooter out there in the market. We have shooters, but PayDay2 is exclusively CoOp - like Left 4 Dead - except that apparently every person controls a robber (in a squad of 4) and together they use tactics, stealth and combat to pull a heist and steal millions. Sounds pretty unique to me - i personally cant name a single tactical criminal online co-op shooter out there in the market.

Karpaw
7th Sep 2013, 14:48
It wont flop. They have the almighty power of marketing and the fact it will be an early next gen game. I don't expect it to do too well though, but you never really know. Everybody is eating up PAYDAY 2 right now so any old trash can do well, apparently.
Yeah but Square Enix has gained a reputation for expecting ridiculous sales. They'll probably consider it a flop if it doesn't sell at least 4-5 million (good luck with that). As for marketing, it seems to commit that easy mistake: appealing to nobody by trying to appeal to everybody.
"It's a revitalization of the classic stealth series... but now you get XP for headshotting guards, in case you need to satisfy that itchy trigger finger!"
"It's an immersive sim with huge levels ... but your tools and actions are contextually triggered and there are QTE sequences to serve our amazing story about the metrosexual goth Garrett who is a clinical kleptomaniac!"
"It's a game that rewards patience and planning to pull off heists skillfully... but if you get caught, you can flip out like a ninja and kill everybody because Garrett is just that badass!"

Who knows how much money has been sunk into a game with a development history this troubled (it's hardly an accident that development started in 2008 and we didn't hear anything substantial about it until this year). And for all that time and effort, the end result looks like the safe middlebrow covering-all-bases pablum that characterizes so much of AAA gaming. That's why I think it's going to be EM's The Bureau: XCOM Declassified when Human Revolution was their Enemy Unknown.

Karpaw
8th Sep 2013, 11:30
Also- in this particular case- the fans and media who have played Thief are coming away with a rather different opinion of the game than the ones who have not. I personally am in a pretty good position to know this.

I bet you are. Would you bet that playing the game before everyone else, being babysat by developers and generally getting the special snowflake treatment doesn't influence the impressions those fans and media take away at all?

This is like when game journos are called out for not knowing what "conflict of interest" means and then respond with "geeez guys, just because I hang out with the devs at carefully managed PR events and get free stuff from the publisher doesn't mean I can't be objective about assessing their products. I mean, I'm a journalist... being honest and objective is my job so just trust me, you know! Anyway, 9.5 - clear GOTY contender."

JCpies
8th Sep 2013, 13:42
I bet you are. Would you bet that playing the game before everyone else, being babysat by developers and generally getting the special snowflake treatment doesn't influence the impressions those fans and media take away at all?"

http://oi43.tinypic.com/33ynzhy.jpg

CyberP
8th Sep 2013, 14:54
Lol.

Fitzchiv
13th Sep 2013, 18:11
Jerion & Berr - cheers for the nuggets. I guess I'll have to "be patient" a while longer huh - although Thief should be a nice way to break up the time, absolutely loved those games when I was younger.

Shralla
13th Sep 2013, 19:54
Jerion & Berr - cheers for the nuggets. I guess I'll have to "be patient" a while longer huh - although Thief should be a nice way to break up the time, absolutely loved those games when I was younger.

Stay away from this one then.

Jerion
13th Sep 2013, 21:29
I bet you are. Would you bet that playing the game before everyone else, being babysat by developers and generally getting the special snowflake treatment doesn't influence the impressions those fans and media take away at all?

It makes us even more aware of the precarious nature of our credibility and thus encourages us to be even more impartial and critical, not less. However- and this is true for any medium- once you see behind the curtain and recognize not just the process and difficulties but the people involved, it permanently alters your perspective. I'm more forgiving than some when it comes to critically analyzing games, but that doesn't make me any less perceptive.

Attacking my personal credibility and integrity instead of paying attention to the things my companions and I have to say and coming to your own conclusions is a fast route to having me ignore anything you might have to say. I have no patience for people who assume I am lying without just cause.

See you around. :)


Jerion & Berr - cheers for the nuggets. I guess I'll have to "be patient" a while longer huh - although Thief should be a nice way to break up the time, absolutely loved those games when I was younger.

This one is shaping up to be fairly competent, but it isn't a straight continuation of the old games and won't play quite like them either. Know that going in and you'll have a better time.

Shralla
13th Sep 2013, 23:30
It isn't about your personal credibility at all. It's about the scientifically studied responses to a new experience in a positive environment and the effects it has on people's subconscious perceptions of said experience.

CyberP
14th Sep 2013, 00:57
Don't worry mods, you're golden. Doing a great job. You counter with wit and logic, and all seem like stand-up people. Your attitude has changed a little but that could simply be because you were satisfied with the games you played at E3, contextual jumping an all.

Plus EM always needed/was deserving of some strong white knights :P (unpaid or not, I have no clue and it's not really my business).

So, keep it up. Just don't **** censor a whole post of mine next time, mr/ms X. It was hardly called for, more an edit, clean up.

AlexOfSpades
14th Sep 2013, 03:06
I'm more forgiving than some when it comes to critically analyzing games, but that doesn't make me any less perceptive.


"geeez guys, just because I hang out with the devs at carefully managed PR events and get free stuff from the publisher doesn't mean I can't be objective about assessing their products. I mean, I'm a journalist mod... being honest and objective is my job so just trust me, you know! Anyway, 9.5 - clear GOTY contender."

:lol:

JCpies
14th Sep 2013, 16:36
I don't **** on every bit of info that Eidos Montreal releases.

Am I a white knight?

Reven
15th Sep 2013, 11:09
I don't **** on every bit of info that Eidos Montreal releases.

Am I a white knight?

Nope. Because you don't have an agenda to push. Long term self interest to maintain, a straw man to waylay and mislead, a slippery slope argument to lay out or an ill though out apology to cover any and all failings no matter how prominent they are.

You are one of those unique forum snowflakes that PR rolls off like water off a ducks back. It's a good thing to be. Believe me old boy.

Ashpolt
15th Sep 2013, 16:00
I went to E3 and enjoyed Thief. But I have no real interest in whether or not Thief does well or not: I'm not an employee of SE / EM, not even a mod on here, and it's pretty unlikely I'll get to go to E3 again, so I don't need to be "nice" for any potential future gain. I've also previously been, and continue to be, one of the most staunch critics of what EM did with DXHR. But again: I enjoyed what I played of Thief.

So please go ahead and tell me why my opinion is tainted, biased, or otherwise not valid, because I'm pretty interested to hear it.

FrankCSIS
15th Sep 2013, 16:16
So please go ahead and tell me why my opinion is tainted, biased, or otherwise not valid, because I'm pretty interested to hear it.

You're part of the Secret Brotherhood of the Sony NEX Family, to which D'Astous was a prominent member. You cannot be trusted. NEX-5 first gen, Montreal Chapter. Represent, brother!

JCpies
15th Sep 2013, 17:19
I don't even know whose side I'm on.


Man, I want Deus Ex 4.


Come on.

68_pie
15th Sep 2013, 17:50
I went to E3 and enjoyed Thief. But I have no real interest in whether or not Thief does well or not: I'm not an employee of SE / EM, not even a mod on here, and it's pretty unlikely I'll get to go to E3 again, so I don't need to be "nice" for any potential future gain. I've also previously been, and continue to be, one of the most staunch critics of what EM did with DXHR. But again: I enjoyed what I played of Thief.

So please go ahead and tell me why my opinion is tainted, biased, or otherwise not valid, because I'm pretty interested to hear it.

But the circumstances surrounding your visit probably coloured your impressions, even if only preconciously.

Also, it depends upon your prior investment in the Thief series.

Ashpolt
15th Sep 2013, 18:10
But the circumstances surrounding your visit probably coloured your impressions, even if only preconciously.

Every aspect of every situation anyone ever finds them in "colours their impressions" of that situation, "even if only preconsciously." If you think your own opinion of absolutely anything ever is entirely free of influence from external factors, you're wrong.

So yeah, going to E3 probably did "preconsciously" dispose me to be slightly more open to the idea of enjoying Thief. (And the same could be said for DX:TF, and yet I wasn't exactly fond of that.) The important part is that I've retained my ability to be critical, which if you've read my posts over on the Thief forum, you'll see.

If you go looking for reasons to discredit someone's opinion, you'll find them, regardless of the person. So take a step back, look at the information and not the person giving it, and judge that way.

68_pie
15th Sep 2013, 19:25
The important part is that I've retained my ability to be critical, which if you've read my posts over on the Thief forum, you'll see.

I haven't. I can't be arsed to join in on the Thief forum when it's just going to be a carbon copy of what happened here.


So take a step back, look at the information and not the person giving it, and judge that way.

Sure. That's what I do. And I have my opinion based on the objective information that is available. But I also read people's subjective impressions and I know whose are more likely to line up with my own.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
16th Sep 2013, 07:06
It's a conspiracy! :eek:

JCpies
16th Sep 2013, 12:17
I think this forum has influenced me into having negative views on every video game that is not the original Deus Ex.

I should stop hanging out here just in case.

CyberP
16th Sep 2013, 14:23
I think this forum has influenced me into having negative views on every video game that is not the original Deus Ex.

I should stop hanging out here just in case.

There are loads of great games out there and DX itself isn't perfect.
Even my most beloved games I am critical of.

I'd like to think the above is the same for most members here, and indeed get the impression it is.