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View Full Version : Features from DX The Fall I'd love to see in DXHR Director's Cut



Berr
13th Jul 2013, 13:18
Hey so I've played through DX The Fall normally and again with New Game Plus now, I had a good time and there is a few things from it that I wish were in DXHR. I'm listing them as follows, I hope they can be ported back to DXHR in the upcoming Director's Cut:

- Security consoles for doors remain active and hackable even if the door gets opened from the other side or via knowing the code. This is cool because it means you don't get denied XP just because you found a secret corridor around to behind the locked door, or needed to use the code the first time to avoid a guard spotting you.

- Punching weakened walls seems to generally cause less of a ruckus, both in terms of civilian reaction and amount of alarm raised from nearby guards. I really appreciated this as it let me actually use wall punch sometimes while trying to play stealthily.

- The augmentation that lets you have a second energy bar refill automatically. This made such a huge difference to my enjoyment of stealth mechanics. It makes a short stealth run into a takedown possible without using an energy bar, which meant I went from doing it almost never in DXHR to doing it quite a bit in DXTF. Also, two energy bars with stealth lvl2 or 3 gives me enough time to do a quick stealth recon run of a new area I've entered to get my bearings, which was really handy. (I know the Director's Cut already has a 'rebalanced energy system' so maybe you've already done something like this?)

I also really enjoyed New Game Plus, the concept works great for DX since there is a lot of fun to be had when fully augmented. I know this is already included in the Director's Cut and I'm looking forward to it.

So, everyone else who has played DXTF, is there anything you saw in it that you felt was a welcome refinement from DXHR?

Shralla
13th Jul 2013, 18:23
- Security consoles for doors remain active and hackable even if the door gets opened from the other side or via knowing the code. This is cool because it means you don't get denied XP just because you found a secret corridor around to behind the locked door, or needed to use the code the first time to avoid a guard spotting you.

And that makes the XP system even more broken and unbalanced, and encourages mindless repetitive hacking of already-bypassed consoles just to farm XP. It was bad enough in HR without it giving you the ability to hack things that you've already gone through. There's nothing "Deus Ex" about that. It was a terrible system and if they want me to consider buying a sequel or the Director's Cut, any change had better not be the one you're describing.


Punching weakened walls seems to generally cause less of a ruckus, both in terms of civilian reaction and amount of alarm raised from nearby guards. I really appreciated this as it let me actually use wall punch sometimes while trying to play stealthily.

Why should you be able to loudly punch through walls while playing stealthily? And why wouldn't civilians be freaking out that a huge cyborg just broke through a nearby wall? That sounds like trying to balance a crappy gameplay mechanic (punching through walls) by making it easier to get away with.


The augmentation that lets you have a second energy bar refill automatically. This made such a huge difference to my enjoyment of stealth mechanics. It makes a short stealth run into a takedown possible without using an energy bar, which meant I went from doing it almost never in DXHR to doing it quite a bit in DXTF. Also, two energy bars with stealth lvl2 or 3 gives me enough time to do a quick stealth recon run of a new area I've entered to get my bearings, which was really handy.

I don't understand what part of a "stealth run" involves using energy at all. You have a third-person cover system. You can already see around walls, and through them by use of the default radar augmentation. Why would you need to use energy? And moreover, where are all your cyberboost bars? Why do you need a second bar to regenerate, making the game even more ridiculously easier (as it stands you can literally use takedowns on everybody in the level for one-shot kills or knockouts without using a single cyberboost)?


I also really enjoyed New Game Plus, the concept works great for DX since there is a lot of fun to be had when fully augmented. I know this is already included in the Director's Cut and I'm looking forward to it.

Yeah, implementing New Game+ to the complete detriment of everything that Deus Ex stands for in a game that already allowed you to unlock almost every single augmentation regardless of how much the dev team stated otherwise is a totally great idea.

Almost all of this amounts to "please make my game easier and more repetitive." I just can't get behind any of it.

El_Bel
13th Jul 2013, 20:51
The forums should add a "like" future, so i dont have to make a post just to say "What Shralla said."

68_pie
13th Jul 2013, 23:56
What El_Bel said.

Doom972
14th Jul 2013, 00:42
^That one.

What the OP is asking for is not Deus Ex. I can think of other games where it might fit, but definitely not here. This is not an arcade-style game.

Berr
14th Jul 2013, 00:47
And that makes the XP system even more broken and unbalanced, and encourages mindless repetitive hacking of already-bypassed consoles just to farm XP. It was bad enough in HR without it giving you the ability to hack things that you've already gone through.
Hey, you don't have to do it. At least it would be consistent. At the moment, hack the console, then go back via secret corridor gives you both XP, but get in via secret corridor, then go back and (want to) hack the console you only get half the XP. Also, did it ever occur to you that maybe some people like hacking?



Why should you be able to loudly punch through walls while playing stealthily? And why wouldn't civilians be freaking out that a huge cyborg just broke through a nearby wall? That sounds like trying to balance a crappy gameplay mechanic (punching through walls) by making it easier to get away with.
You haven't played DXTF have you? People still freak out, and nearby NPCs are still alarmed and come investigate, just it doesn't trigger hostile on NPCs if they don't see you. I always felt like it was a weird mechanic in DXHR because it feels like part of the skillset that let you get in via alternate routes (along with move heavy objects, jump high), but it was so noisy that it didn't seem usable unless you were going to gun everyone down in combat, and then why care about alternate routes? It's a question of balancing realism with fun.



I don't understand what part of a "stealth run" involves using energy at all. You have a third-person cover system. You can already see around walls, and through them by use of the default radar augmentation. Why would you need to use energy? And moreover, where are all your cyberboost bars? Why do you need a second bar to regenerate, making the game even more ridiculously easier (as it stands you can literally use takedowns on everybody in the level for one-shot kills or knockouts without using a single cyberboost)?
I mean "stealth run" as running somewhere while cloaked. Once again, it is clear that you have not played DXTF, otherwise you would know the augmentation to have a second bar refill is only available at the very end of the energy system upgrades, after getting up to 5 bars, so it doesn't come cheap or early in the game.



Yeah, implementing New Game+ to the complete detriment of everything that Deus Ex stands for in a game that already allowed you to unlock almost every single augmentation regardless of how much the dev team stated otherwise is a totally great idea.
To me, New Game+ is a playground mode that you get as a reward for finishing the game. It's a lot of fun, it's super-easy for them to implement (probably done in a couple of days by one guy). Also, you don't have play it so why do you care if they add it?


Overall, your entire post reeks of 'I haven't played DXTF', along with a side of 'bitter forum warrior who hates DXHR, DXTF, Eidos, and everyone who likes anything they do'. I may not post here that often but I've been a lurker since DXHR came out, and sometimes it seems like the only non-trolls here are HERESY and the mods. Why exactly are you here, hating on a constructive post that is written from reference to a game you haven't even played?

CyberP
14th Jul 2013, 01:39
Joining the bandwagon; +1 to the crowd.
I would explain why you are wrong, Berr, but I vowed I wouldn't crash the autumn-came-early party and shralla did a pretty good job already.

I also haven't played autumn so my opinion would lack some credibility....but would it really? We all know what it is, and even the mainstream gaming press clowns are giving it passable reviews so it must really be not what we want.

All your opinions just come across as those of someone who doesn't understand game design too well/hasn't been gaming long/Is a one of a kind like the house HERESY.

Oh, and welcome to the forums. Have your say, I think we should leave this topic alone until someone with understanding of good game design decides they are going to slug through the Fall, then arguments or friendly debates can commence.
That won't happen though, because we know what Deus Ex should be, that being the definitive superior electronic home entertainment experience (or even portable, it's possible), and this isn't it. Far from it.

68_pie
14th Jul 2013, 01:48
sometimes it seems like the only non-trolls here are HERESY

I can't even...:lmao:



Why exactly are you here, hating on a constructive post that is written from reference to a game you haven't even played?

Because everything you suggested is a complete betrayal of the design principles on which DX is based?

HERESY
14th Jul 2013, 02:38
Hey, you don't have to do it. At least it would be consistent. At the moment, hack the console, then go back via secret corridor gives you both XP, but get in via secret corridor, then go back and (want to) hack the console you only get half the XP. Also, did it ever occur to you that maybe some people like hacking?



You haven't played DXTF have you? People still freak out, and nearby NPCs are still alarmed and come investigate, just it doesn't trigger hostile on NPCs if they don't see you. I always felt like it was a weird mechanic in DXHR because it feels like part of the skillset that let you get in via alternate routes (along with move heavy objects, jump high), but it was so noisy that it didn't seem usable unless you were going to gun everyone down in combat, and then why care about alternate routes? It's a question of balancing realism with fun.



I mean "stealth run" as running somewhere while cloaked. Once again, it is clear that you have not played DXTF, otherwise you would know the augmentation to have a second bar refill is only available at the very end of the energy system upgrades, after getting up to 5 bars, so it doesn't come cheap or early in the game.



To me, New Game+ is a playground mode that you get as a reward for finishing the game. It's a lot of fun, it's super-easy for them to implement (probably done in a couple of days by one guy). Also, you don't have play it so why do you care if they add it?


Overall, your entire post reeks of 'I haven't played DXTF', along with a side of 'bitter forum warrior who hates DXHR, DXTF, Eidos, and everyone who likes anything they do'. I may not post here that often but I've been a lurker since DXHR came out, and sometimes it seems like the only non-trolls here are HERESY and the mods. Why exactly are you here, hating on a constructive post that is written from reference to a game you haven't even played?

Q4T.

CyberP
14th Jul 2013, 02:42
Q4T.

:rolleyes:

Berr
14th Jul 2013, 02:54
Joining the bandwagon; +1 to the crowd.
I would explain why you are wrong, Berr, but I vowed I wouldn't crash the autumn-came-early party and shralla did a pretty good job already.

I also haven't played autumn so my opinion would lack some credibility....but would it really? We all know what it is, and even the mainstream gaming press clowns are giving it passable reviews so it must really be not what we want.
Really? Are you like a DX gaming hipster or something? 'If its popular I won't/don't like it'. A quick check on Gamespot shows they gave DX1, DX2, and DXHR all 8.X scores, so not sure how you can draw any conclusion on whether you will like a DX game from critical reviews.

Seriously, you should give DXTF a chance. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously as a DX fan when you disregard a DX game without playing it, even after it gets decent reviews??


All your opinions just come across as those of someone who doesn't understand game design too well/hasn't been gaming long/Is a one of a kind like the house HERESY.

Oh, and welcome to the forums. Have your say, I think we should leave this topic alone until someone with understanding of good game design decides they are going to slug through the Fall, then arguments or friendly debates can commence.
I'll have to choose the last option 'One of a kind like Heresy', since he seems like the only one here who actually likes DXHR and Eidos Montreal's work. Also, I'm 30 years old, have been playing games for decades, am a programmer who has dabbled in making games, and am quite well-read in game design. Hate to break it to you, but the little 'DX1 is the one true game' crew here do not hold a monopoly on game design wisdom. Although I'm sure we probably disagree as to what a DX game should be, I'm not just making things up as I go along.

HERESY
14th Jul 2013, 03:07
Really? Are you like a DX gaming hipster or something? 'If its popular I won't/don't like it'. A quick check on Gamespot shows they gave DX1, DX2, and DXHR all 8.X scores, so not sure how you can draw any conclusion on whether you will like a DX game from critical reviews.

Seriously, you should give DXTF a chance. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously as a DX fan when you disregard a DX game without playing it, even after it gets decent reviews??


I'll have to choose the last option 'One of a kind like Heresy', since he seems like the only one here who actually likes DXHR and Eidos Montreal's work. Also, I'm 30 years old, have been playing games for decades, am a programmer who has dabbled in making games, and am quite well-read in game design. Hate to break it to you, but the little 'DX1 is the one true game' crew here do not hold a monopoly on game design wisdom. Although I'm sure we probably disagree as to what a DX game should be, I'm not just making things up as I go along.

@Berr, you've just made a "classic post." :thumb:

You'll also notice the hypocrisy of many of the members here. I actually started to play the original, stopped and said it wasn't for me. The people here went nuts, called me a troll and constantly asked for me to be banned. However, these DX gaming hipsters and 'DX1 is the one true game' crew are bashing the new game without even playing it. I've taken a very unbiased approach when it comes to EM and the direction the franchise is going. When EM does good I say it, when they do bad (like the jailbreak issue) I speak out.

At the end of the day we should all let EM make the game they want to make. At the end of the day we should judge a game based on if it hit the marks the developer set and if it's right for us. But none of us have a monopoly on "DX" and no one should say "That's not DX" or "This si DX" because it's something that is left for the individual to interpret and define for themselves.

CyberP
14th Jul 2013, 03:16
Really? Are you like a DX gaming hipster or something? 'If its popular I won't/don't like it'. A quick check on Gamespot shows they gave DX1, DX2, and DXHR all 8.X scores, so not sure how you can draw any conclusion on whether you will like a DX game from critical reviews.

No, I gave up on the gaming press a while back. All of them really. My standards & ideals>theirs. 8.X? You really think that is suitable for Deus Ex? And what was their scores for Mass Effect, Call of Duty or Halo? I don't even want to know.
Critical reviews, that's a laugh.


Seriously, you should give DXTF a chance. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously as a DX fan when you disregard a DX game without playing it, even after it gets decent reviews??

It's not a Deus Ex game. If it were you'd be coming in here drooling for your mind would have been blown. not "yay! we can farm more XP!" & "New game+, soooo cool".
Sorry, patronizing & unnecessary, I know, but this all just wrong. Gaming has been ruined, made worse by Eidos holding it's "Magnum Opus" over a lit stove.


I'll have to choose the last option 'One of a kind like Heresy', since he seems like the only one here who actually likes DXHR and Eidos Montreal's work. Also, I'm 30 years old, have been playing games for decades, am a programmer who has dabbled in making games, and am quite well-read in game design. Hate to break it to you, but the little 'DX1 is the one true game' crew here do not hold a monopoly on game design wisdom. Although I'm sure we probably disagree as to what a DX game should be, I'm not just making things up as I go along.

DX1 is the one true game? No, it is the greatest game though.

I like DX:HR, though it kinda missed the point, like you.

As for your opinions & counter argument's to shralla's? Thumbs down.

Programmer? Not a credible factor. People programmed E.T, did they not ;)
Ok, it does give you some credibility, but not enough. You either "get it" or you don't.

Berr
14th Jul 2013, 03:48
No, I gave up on the gaming press a while back. All of them really. My standards & ideals>theirs.
Apparently you need reminding that YOU are the one who brought up critical reviews as a reference point for whether DXTF was any good or not. I don't put huge weight into what the critical reviews are for a game are, and never said I did.


"yay! we can farm more XP!" & "New game+, soooo cool".
Very reductionist and inaccurate reading of my contributions. I've already started multiple threads about DXTF on different subjects, including some criticism.


It's not a Deus Ex game. If it were you'd be coming in here drooling for your mind would have been blown.
Sorry, patronizing & unnecessary, I know, but this all just wrong. Gaming has been ruined, made worse by Eidos holding it's "Magnum Opus" over a lit stove.
DX1 is the one true game? No, it is the greatest game though.
I like DX:HR, though it kinda missed the point, like you.
You either "get it" or you don't.

Seriously just read back what you wrote. Clearly you have built DX1 up in your mind to an insane level of reverence. Your mind is closed off to the possibility that any other game could ever come close to DX1 for you. So no, I guess I don't 'get it', and for that I am extremely happy as that means I can still enjoy other things in life. I like both DX1 and DXHR a great deal, recognising and even being happy that they are different from each other in many respects.

Berr
14th Jul 2013, 03:52
Q4T.

Thanks :)

I really don't know how you get by here with so many DXHR haters / DX1 worshippers opposing you all the time.

CyberP
14th Jul 2013, 04:02
Apparently you need reminding that YOU are the one who brought up critical reviews as a reference point for whether DXTF was any good or not.

Yes, and? My standards and ideals> Theirs. Therefore if they are giving "decent" reviews of it it is most likely a poor experience by my standards.


Very reductionist and inaccurate reading of my contributions. I've already started multiple threads about DXTF on different subjects, including some criticism.

Fair enough. I won't argue with you over the exact details of autumn as I have not and will not play it.


Your mind is closed off to the possibility that any other game could ever come close to DX1 for you.

That's news to me. Nowhere have I claimed this. I sometimes struggle with deciding if certain select games have surpassed DX already, but DX always wins...for now.


So no, I guess I don't 'get it', and for that I am extremely happy as that means I can still enjoy other things in life. I like both DX1 and DXHR a great deal, recognising and even being happy that they are different from each other in many respects.

I'm happy for you, really. I enjoy DX:HR too, but it's such a shame it is not what it should have been, but I accept it and plan to hang on to it and enjoy it between moments of frustration at the game in the many areas it fails.
Directors Cut? The Fall? I never asked for this and Deus Ex deserves better. No mobile gamer could convince me otherwise :)

Berr
14th Jul 2013, 04:12
Yes, and? My standards and ideals> Theirs. Therefore if they are giving "decent" reviews of it it is most likely a poor experience by my standards.
But they gave DX1 decent reviews too so therefore apparently you won't like it? No matter which way you slice it, their reviews should either mean nothing to you, so a good or bad review is no indicator of whether you will like it, or if you can take some measure of a game from their reviews, they gave DX1 and DXTF almost the same score so if you like DX1 you must be going to like DXTF. Clearly the latter is nonsense, so it must be the former and you need to not use DXTF's review scores as a factor in judging the game.


Fair enough. I won't argue with you over the exact details of autumn as I have not and will not play it.
The fact that you refuse to even call the game by its real name 'The Fall', and instead insist on referring to it by the derogatory nickname 'autumn' reveals the depth of your irrationality on the subject.


Directors Cut? I never asked for this.
So, you think DXHR could have been better, but reject a re-release that adds polish? :scratch:


The Fall? I never asked for this. No mobile gamer could convince me otherwise
Nice try with 'mobile gamer'. I'm a PC gamer 1st, I would have preferred to play The Fall on my PC. I don't think DX works as well on a touch screen as with KB+mouse, but they made DXTF playable and its more DX so I can't pass it up!

CyberP
14th Jul 2013, 04:21
But they gave DX1 decent reviews too so therefore apparently you won't like it? No matter which way you slice it, their reviews should either mean nothing to you, so a good or bad review is no indicator of whether you will like it, or if you can take some measure of a game from their reviews, they gave DX1 and DXTF almost the same score so if you like DX1 you must be going to like DXTF. Clearly the latter is nonsense, so it must be the former and you need to not use DXTF's review scores as a factor in judging the game

No, it just shows that clearly their reviews are commonly nonsense therefore I allow them little influence. My mind was made up regarding Autumn on reveal anyway.



The fact that you refuse to even call the game by its real name 'The Fall', and instead insist on referring to it by the derogatory nickname 'autumn' reveals the depth of your irrationality on the subject.

Maybe.


So, you think DXHR could have been better, but reject a re-release that adds polish? :scratch:

It doesn't add anything by my standards and Ideals. Where are the lean keys? Re-balanced RPG elements? Improved narrative as a whole? Re-worked final level? Much more.

Instead we get improved graphics and new game+. Not interested.


Nice try with 'mobile gamer'. I'm a PC gamer 1st, I would have preferred to play The Fall on my PC. I don't think DX works as well on a touch screen as with KB+mouse, but they made DXTF playable and its more DX so I can't pass it up!

Meh. Console gamer first, PC second for me ;) I don't want streamlined DX, I'm sick of all the streamlining. There are few favorite classics of mine the industry has left to destroy. They have gone through nearly all.

Berr
14th Jul 2013, 04:28
Meh. Console gamer first, PC second for me ;)

Now I understand the real reason for our different perspectives...
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/008/2/2/_wallpaper__glorious_pc_gaming_master_race_by_admiralserenity-d5qvxos.png

Just kidding ;)

But seriously I am surprised, with your obvious love of DX1, quite possibly the most PC-gamish game ever made, how can you identify as a console gamer first??!

CyberP
14th Jul 2013, 04:43
Now I understand the real reason for our different perspectives...
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/008/2/2/_wallpaper__glorious_pc_gaming_master_race_by_admiralserenity-d5qvxos.png

Just kidding ;)

But seriously I am surprised, with your obvious love of DX1, quite possibly the most PC-gamish game ever made, how can you identify as a console gamer first??!

Because console gaming is not what many dedicated PC gamers are led to believe it is, or was. There are plenty of games with depth and hardcore challenge to be found on consoles if you look to the 90's and early 00's. I only need to mention the console-born Dark Souls and note how there are many similar games to this in the consoles histories.
Plently RPG elements and hardcore challenge, and occasionally a great story. Pretty much every PC classic was ported to consoles almost flawlessly anyway. the only one that had a terrible port was Deus Ex surprisingly. Unnecessarily dumbed down, it could have been a flawless port but I guess Ion Storm assumed console gamers were retarded 'cause hey, look at Invisible War also.
System Shock 2, VTM:B and mods is what I PC game for primarily, though if both Looking Glass and Troika didn't undeservedly go bust not long after release of the respective games they would have probably got ported to consoles anyway. Shock 2 was planned to be ported to the DreamCast.

Also, I am the master race: console gamer, PC gamer and modder ;) I am primarily a PC gamer these days really though because consoles rarely have anything to offer me anymore. Assassins Creed? pass. Gears of War? pass. And so on. it's all trash now, but I don't really see much coming out for PC either that interests me. Both markets have been destroyed by the gold rush generation.

Berr
14th Jul 2013, 05:13
@Berr, you've just made a "classic post." :thumb:

Thanks :)


I've taken a very unbiased approach when it comes to EM and the direction the franchise is going. When EM does good I say it, when they do bad (like the jailbreak issue) I speak out.
Yeah, I've noticed your unbiased approach in my lurking. You like Eidos and DXHR, but you'll still call them on a genuine mistake.


At the end of the day we should all let EM make the game they want to make. At the end of the day we should judge a game based on if it hit the marks the developer set and if it's right for us. But none of us have a monopoly on "DX" and no one should say "That's not DX" or "This si DX" because it's something that is left for the individual to interpret and define for themselves.
Agreed :)

Casshern
14th Jul 2013, 09:49
Actually the new soundtrack parts would have fitted nicely in the DC edition :)

Berr
14th Jul 2013, 12:41
I'm ashamed to admit, but I didn't spot the new soundtrack additions. And that's despite being a massive fan of the DXHR soundtrack and having listened to it 50+ times out of game :(

Where were they in the game?

Also, anyone from Eidos or the mod team able to get some MP3s for us to supplement our DXHR OST?

Casshern
14th Jul 2013, 12:59
when you roam the boardwalk (that theme isn't in HR) and another one I think the Xng offices

Berr
17th Jul 2013, 05:18
@CyberP: Well our little back and forth was an interesting discussion, and I think worthwhile because I think we both understand a lot more about each others perspective on DX and games in general now.

For example, I think that complex game mechanics and challenging gameplay are some of the most important features of DX1 for you. Meanwhile, the main draw for me in all the DX games is exploring the cyberpunk world that has been created, then the characters & story, then the stealth gameplay.

CyberP
17th Jul 2013, 11:59
@CyberP: Well our little back and forth was an interesting discussion, and I think worthwhile because I think we both understand a lot more about each others perspective on DX and games in general now.

For example, I think that complex game mechanics and challenging gameplay are some of the most important features of DX1 for you. Meanwhile, the main draw for me in all the DX games is exploring the cyberpunk world that has been created, then the characters & story, then the stealth gameplay.

Complex game mechanics and challenge is important to me...but really the whole experience is: gameplay story, level design/exploration, music etc, all the art forms coming together to form something no other mediums are capable of.
But you're right, gameplay and challenge is what I expect first and foremost.

Nice talking to you too, mobile gamer :rasp:
I suppose the Fall provides what you look for in a game then, exploration, story & to some extent, stealth.

Berr
17th Jul 2013, 13:52
mobile gamer :rasp:
haha stop that! ;)

I suppose the Fall provides what you look for in a game then, exploration, story & to some extent, stealth.
Indeed it does! I tried some combat yesterday and quickly realized the iPad controls are noticeably weaker for this play style (than for stealth), so it seems DXTF strengths align exactly to what I wanted from it.

TheYouthCounselor
29th Jul 2013, 10:08
Hey so I've played through DX The Fall normally and again with New Game Plus now, I had a good time and there is a few things from it that I wish were in DXHR. I'm listing them as follows, I hope they can be ported back to DXHR in the upcoming Director's Cut:

- Security consoles for doors remain active and hackable even if the door gets opened from the other side or via knowing the code. This is cool because it means you don't get denied XP just because you found a secret corridor around to behind the locked door, or needed to use the code the first time to avoid a guard spotting you.

- Punching weakened walls seems to generally cause less of a ruckus, both in terms of civilian reaction and amount of alarm raised from nearby guards. I really appreciated this as it let me actually use wall punch sometimes while trying to play stealthily.

- The augmentation that lets you have a second energy bar refill automatically. This made such a huge difference to my enjoyment of stealth mechanics. It makes a short stealth run into a takedown possible without using an energy bar, which meant I went from doing it almost never in DXHR to doing it quite a bit in DXTF. Also, two energy bars with stealth lvl2 or 3 gives me enough time to do a quick stealth recon run of a new area I've entered to get my bearings, which was really handy. (I know the Director's Cut already has a 'rebalanced energy system' so maybe you've already done something like this?)

I also really enjoyed New Game Plus, the concept works great for DX since there is a lot of fun to be had when fully augmented. I know this is already included in the Director's Cut and I'm looking forward to it.

So, everyone else who has played DXTF, is there anything you saw in it that you felt was a welcome refinement from DXHR?

With the exception of how The Fall handles the punching through wall mechanic, I like your suggestions.

I think we old timers are so fixated on what Deus Ex is in our idealized image that we forget what makes the series special: choice.

I don't like to game systems because it breaks immersion. (Ironically though most of my favorite games have XP systems, I don't like XP systems because they take me out of the story.) I'd be lying if I said I don't powergame initial playthroughs and exploit every mechanic to amass maximum experience points. (In the first Deus Ex, I recall finding a keypad that gave skill points every time you right clicked to turn activate it. I maxed my character out with that keypad and didn't feel ashamed one bit because I saw it as just another way to play the game. I mean why would a 50 Billion Dollar supersoldier be unable to hit a trash can sized target at point blank range or hold his breath longer for 30 seconds?) The door suggestion is perfectly logical in the real world. Why shouldn't we allow doors to close and lock again so that we can hack it?

I may prefer to play the game stealthily and non lethally and immerse myself in the story but I also appreciate the option to play it recklessly and murderously. I don't like creating systems to behard for the sake of being hard. Why does punching somebody consume an entire energy bar? It makes no sense.

As for a Game Plus Mode, Gibbed's Debug Mod already does that for the PC, but why shouldn't it be a native feature cross platform? One of the greatest joys in second playthroughs or returning to starting locations in RPGs is screwing around through a power trip by effortlessly massacring all the enemies that made the life hell from the beginning with cheat codes or a leveled up character. I'm all for this.

So instead of beating up on newbies and casuals for ruining the series by adding features why can't accept them as extra options we don't have to touch if it doesn't take away from the core game?

CyberP
29th Jul 2013, 12:50
I think we old timers are so fixated on what Deus Ex is in our idealized image that we forget what makes the series special: choice.

No, the experience as a whole makes Deus Ex special....but choice is a primary factor.

And I'm not old :p


I don't like to game systems because it breaks immersion.

I suggest you walk out your front door then. Get immersed in the world.
Immersive simulation design should enhance game systems, make them believable, but never overshadow them.


I maxed my character out with that keypad and didn't feel ashamed one bit because I saw it as just another way to play the game.

You cheated yourself out of the challenges designed for you and choices had less importance.


I mean why would a 50 Billion Dollar supersoldier be unable to hit a trash can sized target at point blank range or hold his breath longer for 30 seconds?)

Gameplay, that's why.


The door suggestion is perfectly logical in the real world. Why shouldn't we allow doors to close and lock again so that we can hack it?

Perfectly logical, but not when you do it just for the XP rewards for hacking. But as has been said time and time again, there should have been no XP rewards for hacking.


I don't like creating systems to behard for the sake of being hard. Why does punching somebody consume an entire energy bar? It makes no sense.

I suggest you go immerse yourself in some books, games do not seem to be the entertainment medium for you.
Or again, walk out your front door.

Yes, it doesn't make sense and should have been better thought-out, but the takedowns taking one bar battery is a neccesary restriction imposed on the player to enforce a challenge.
Don't single out the robo-punch, it's the battery system as a whole, but as it is it provides balance which is more important than immersion. If the system were designed better we could have had balance and immersion but it is what it is.


So instead of beating up on newbies and casuals for ruining the series by adding features why can't accept them as extra options we don't have to touch if it doesn't take away from the core game?

"Why shouldn't there be new game+?"

NG+ ruins challenge and the importance of choices. It's basically god mode.
It also actually hurts replayability with some games. DX1 for example, you can build a new character every game but cannot have everthing, so challenge and worthwhile choices remain for many a playthrough.
NG+ allows you everything, it's not suitable for DX. Some games NG+ works well only if it adds tougher enemies etc, but few games actually do that.

"Why shouldn't the option be there, no harm to those who don't want it as it's optional, right?"

It's misrepresentation and the wrong way to make DX replayable. DX shouldn't need some tacked on NG+ to remain appealing to players for years. I was happy with vanilla DX1 for 7 or so years, played it at least 10 times in those 7 years. Furthermore as far as I am concerned it is a waste of dev time and resources that could be spent elsewhere.

Anyway, it's time for me to activate cloak. EM/Biskit have done a really nice thing for me (though I am aware it wasn't out of pure selflessness, but rather a nice start/next step to building relations with the community) and I want to honour that move by cloaking/staying away from game design discussions related to HR/TF. I have ranted enough anyway, maybe. :lol:

CyberP
29th Jul 2013, 22:50
*De-cloaks*

Made some edits to previous. :/

*Scofs 5 immersion-breaking candy bars (immersion breaking if you are not convinced by their inventory description anyway) & activates cloak again*

Pinky_Powers
30th Jul 2013, 01:19
Berr, you forget in your opening post how badly HR needs driving portions of the game, maybe a level where you pilot a huge Mech. And certainly Invincibility power-ups!

Anything that makes it quicker, more shiny and far less thoughtful.

Seriously, Human Revolution needed to give us LESS XP. In per-release interviews, the developers spoke on how the game was going to be balanced so that you could not acquire all the Augs in one play-through... that you'd have to make tough choices about the character you were going to be. This was Deus Ex. But in the end, we got XP for everything, too much of it, and in any one playthrough you'll have absolutely every auge that interests you by the time you hit China for the second time.

The reason this is not good, even as a choice for gamers like you, is that it is like bad parenting; giving the child instant gratification while simultaneously denying them the deeper and far better experience. This is a problem faced in all forms of entertainment, not just video games. One must decide early on what type of experience they are toiling to make, and stick to their principles, even when the children whine a bit.

FrankCSIS
30th Jul 2013, 01:48
The reason this is not good, even as a choice for gamers like you, is that it is like bad parenting; giving the child instant gratification while simultaneously denying them the deeper and far better experience. This is a problem faced in all forms of entertainment, not just video games. One must decide early on what type of experience they are toiling to make, and stick to their principles, even when the children whine a bit.

It's unfortunate they did not stick to their guns on this one issue where they should have, because it completely diminishes the entire concept of "choice and consequences" which they expressed as being paramount. I don't personally think choice and consequences defines Deus Ex, but that's another topic entirely.

At the end of the day, if you go out into the wilderness and don't come prepared for rain, at one point or another you are going to be wet. Very wet. What matters, at this point, is where you go from there, and how you recoup.

A well balanced game should definitely punish a player for making poor choices. It should not, however, punish him forever. The point of not having every augs, is ultimately to put you in some rough spots at some point, and give you an advantage in others. All of this is rendered useless by offering "3 paths to every problem", and by allowing the player to have whatever he wants. It's the double-flaw of HR, and is inherently more problematic than other things we have complained about. Not because games should necessarily offer this type of consequential gameplay, but because this particular game claimed to do precisely that, and ultimately did not.

I'm a little appalled this was never really picked up by "professional" reviewers. Then again, they never highlighted this exact same major flaw with Fallout 3, which failed even more than HR in this department. Their first preview video, discussing the fate of Megaton, was a flat out lie.

-Neon-
30th Jul 2013, 01:52
Honestly not seeing why there's so much hate on New Game+ (starting with augs you've unlocked, not all of them, unless you've New Game+'d multiple times already) as an option. That's like saying Burger King should strictly sell burgers or something, with no options for people who might not want a burger then and there. They're not forcing it on you.

I would like to see lessened XP rewards to kind of balance it out, though.

Pinky_Powers
30th Jul 2013, 15:09
I actually don't have a problem with New Game+. You can only use it if you've already had the "proper experience" once. It's like cheatcodes which are only unlocked after you beat the game. And I think we've all enjoyed using cheatcodes from time to time. :)

CyberP
30th Jul 2013, 15:42
*Gets EMP'd by Pinky's felonious post, cloak malfunctions temporarily.*

Pinky, consider this the theme of 1000 cyborgs fresh from construction/conversion and marching in your direction right now, hunter killer mode ON:

doLFSouZUgc

Shralla
30th Jul 2013, 20:17
Honestly not seeing why there's so much hate on New Game+

Because you can already get almost all the augmentations in one run, contrary to what they said prior to release. So unless the XP system is totally overhauled, NG+ is literally just redundant. You'll have maxed out augs before you even leave Detroit for the first time. And then what? Spend the rest of the game NOT leveling up? That sure sounds like fun for an RPG.

-Neon-
31st Jul 2013, 07:45
So, if they lessened the xp rewards, you'd have no problem with new game plus being an option?

Shralla
31st Jul 2013, 08:28
Pretty much, yeah. If it encourages them to build a more balanced XP/augmentation system for the next game, I'm all for it.

CyberP
31st Jul 2013, 10:13
I'd still be against it.



The reason this is not good, even as a choice for gamers like you, is that it is like bad parenting; giving the child instant gratification while simultaneously denying them the deeper and far better experience. This is a problem faced in all forms of entertainment, not just video games. One must decide early on what type of experience they are toiling to make, and stick to their principles, even when the children whine a bit.

How would the children know of this deeper experience? NG+ would be the next step as far as they are concerned.
Also it's just a waste. There are cheat mods about already anyway. More difficulty modes instead would be the better option.

merrick97
2nd Aug 2013, 22:13
Because you can already get almost all the augmentations in one run, contrary to what they said prior to release. So unless the XP system is totally overhauled, NG+ is literally just redundant. You'll have maxed out augs before you even leave Detroit for the first time. And then what? Spend the rest of the game NOT leveling up? That sure sounds like fun for an RPG.

Except Deus Ex HR is NOT an RPG!! It is a stealth FPS with RPG elements.

I like to play the legit the first time and doing all the leveling up the hard way, but what is wrong with wanting to do a second playthrough as the ultimate badass and having all augmentations.

If you don't like New Game+ then dont FREAKIN play New Game+

Its not freakin hard.

merrick97
2nd Aug 2013, 22:16
Seriously, Human Revolution needed to give us LESS XP. In per-release interviews, the developers spoke on how the game was going to be balanced so that you could not acquire all the Augs in one play-through... that you'd have to make tough choices about the character you were going to be. This was Deus Ex. But in the end, we got XP for everything, too much of it, and in any one playthrough you'll have absolutely every auge that interests you by the time you hit China for the second time.

This is absolute bullcrap. I played through the game 5 TIMES doing every little thing from hacking every terminal even when I had the key and I did not maximize all of my augmentations. It cannot be done in one playthrough.

You can certainly get all of the augmentations that cater to your play style, but you cant get all of them without cheating.

Pinky_Powers
2nd Aug 2013, 22:57
How would the children know of this deeper experience? NG+ would be the next step as far as they are concerned.
Also it's just a waste. There are cheat mods about already anyway. More difficulty modes instead would be the better option.

They would know of the better experience through their first play. The challenge, the slower growth, the tough decisions would all be there. Also, knowing that G+ is waiting at the end could divert some players away from using cheat codes the first time around.

Oh, and merrick97, I didn't say you could max out all augs. The balance isn't that horrid. But I know I had every aug that suited my play-style at a frightfully early stage, and ended up buying all sorts of other things just because I had Praxis Points to burn. You would NEVER see that in the original Deus Ex. That game made you sweat blood for your upgrades, and made you anxious over your choices.

Choices should not be cheap things.

CyberP
2nd Aug 2013, 23:48
They would know of the better experience through their first play. The challenge, the slower growth, the tough decisions would all be there. Also, knowing that G+ is waiting at the end could divert some players away from using cheat codes the first time around.


Most would not. Most need the design forced on them to understand. Most people just play a game but don't actually understand the design all too well, then they see the NG+ option and think they are in for something special when this is rarely the case.

Also, I'm pretty sure it was comfirmed that you CAN unlock all augs in one playthrough legitimately. Did I read that here?

68_pie
3rd Aug 2013, 00:17
This is absolute bullcrap. I played through the game 5 TIMES doing every little thing from hacking every terminal even when I had the key and I did not maximize all of my augmentations. It cannot be done in one playthrough.

You can certainly get all of the augmentations that cater to your play style, but you cant get all of them without cheating.

You know that icon that says "Multiquote"... Yeah...


Oh, and merrick97, I didn't say you could max out all augs. The balance isn't that horrid.

It is.


Also, I'm pretty sure it was comfirmed that you CAN unlock all augs in one playthrough legitimately. Did I read that here?

Multiple people on this forum have confirmed that you can unlock all the augs in one playthrough (this is what happens when augs are not mutually exclusive). It requires a lot of skill, especially due to the number of dual-takedowns required.

HERESY
3rd Aug 2013, 00:58
I finished the game, on the hardest difficulty, with like 12 -14 unused praxis kits.

Concerning New Game+, most companies who use it provide it as an OPTION. So if someone wants to play a game, in a state that will make them "god" or allow them to beat it in a couple of hours, who are you to tell them that they shouldn't have it? You aren't the developer, grow the hell up and let people play how they wish. It won't harm you in any way. Why? Because it's an OPTION.

CyberP
3rd Aug 2013, 01:21
But I thought choices were a lie, HERESY? :lol:

Sure, options are great, but this one is a waste of time and misrepresentation. I wouldn't add NG+ to DX. Maybe I should have, get more downloads.

Also, as for letting players play their way, grow up and all that jazz,: no. The game consists of design, you play the developers way all along (back to the choices are a lie article). Say I wanted sex with flying pigs QTEs, should I have had this? No I should not. That wouldn't be very DX, or very fun now would it, not to mention a complete waste if time ;)

I'm against NG+ till the end, but I really should cloak on the subject now as originally intended. :/

merrick97
3rd Aug 2013, 21:47
But I thought choices were a lie, HERESY? :lol:

Sure, options are great, but this one is a waste of time and misrepresentation. I wouldn't add NG+ to DX. Maybe I should have, get more downloads.

Also, as for letting players play their way, grow up and all that jazz,: no. The game consists of design, you play the developers way all along (back to the choices are a lie article). Say I wanted sex with flying pigs QTEs, should I have had this? No I should not. That wouldn't be very DX, or very fun now would it, not to mention a complete waste if time ;)

I'm against NG+ till the end, but I really should cloak on the subject now as originally intended. :/

Id love having my 5th playthrough being god like.

SOmetimes I like to play games to ESCAPE reality and have god like power. There is a time to play a game the way it was intended: The first time. After that I can play it however I damn well please.

Its a shame that you can't understand that.

68_pie
3rd Aug 2013, 22:31
SOmetimes I like to play games to ESCAPE reality and have god like power.

Why are you playing Deus Ex then?

merrick97
4th Aug 2013, 03:27
Why are you playing Deus Ex then?

Because I love the game.

That's usually why people play games.....

To remind you of what I said:
There is a time to play a game the way it was intended: The first time. After that I can play it however I damn well please.

CyberP
4th Aug 2013, 10:12
Get the cheat mods available then.

If you had NG+ or mods, you'd be able to play the game however you please (which is god mode), but I wouldn't. Where is my sex with flying pigs QTE's, for one.

Lol.

NG+'s only positive purpose in my opinion is sales, since all the inexperienced gamers want it. Not suitable for DX, however. It doesn't really matter for DX:HR anyway because there is no deeper experience to be had.

AlexOfSpades
4th Aug 2013, 18:18
I say: Implement the goddamn New Game+ already.

You know why? Because people want it. Some fans are asking for it, so do it. But leave it as an option. You're not forced to use it, just let it there for the noobs that dont really understand what Deus Ex is about and just want a shooter with "awsum taekdown moves". Remember guys, the more options the merrier.

Personally i wouldnt use a New Game+. In my opinion, that is pretty much cheating. But whatever

68_pie
4th Aug 2013, 18:58
I wonder what percentage of the "fans" asking for NewGame+ are fans of DXHR as opposed to DX...

Pinky_Powers
4th Aug 2013, 21:56
I wonder what percentage of the "fans" asking for NewGame+ are fans of DXHR as opposed to DX...

Probably none of them. But so what? It might make new fans, which will allow for more games like HR to be made. Which I think everyone here wants.

Even if you don't feel Human Revolution is a good Deus Ex game, it's still a far better title than the average AAA game. We can cry all day about all they've done wrong in Deux Es and Thief, but I'll take these games any day over the alternatives. In fact, there really aren't any alternatives. The closest thing we have is Dishonored, and that's it.

Jerion
4th Aug 2013, 22:13
I wonder what percentage of the "fans" asking for NewGame+ are fans of DXHR as opposed to DX...

That they're fans of the series is what matters. Pitting the fans of different games against each other is pointless- it's a bit like pitting Tom Baker diehards against Jon Pertwee fans. Either way, they're both Whovians, and making that distinction serves no purpose other than to alienate X group for Y amount of difference. It's borderline pedantic, really.

Personally, I'm not interested in NG+ though if implementing it doesn't detract in a substantial way from development and polish on other parts of the game, I don't see any practical reason why it shouldn't be implemented. Following that line of thought, for each project the invested cost versus opportunity cost value of adding NG+ will be different; for a project as massively complicated as a full-scale DX game, I don't think it's worth the investment.

Shralla
4th Aug 2013, 22:17
You're telling me I should treat Invisible War fans the same way as I would treat fans of the original?

I don't get it...

Jerion
4th Aug 2013, 22:54
You're telling me I should treat Invisible War fans the same way as I would treat fans of the original?

I don't get it...

Nope. I'm telling you that you should treat them as fans of the series, and encourage them to explore the other games in it. Inclusion, not exclusion.

68_pie
4th Aug 2013, 23:17
Probably none of them. But so what? It might make new fans, which will allow for more games like HR to be made.

This is the logic that gave us Fallout 3 and and nothing will convince me that fans of Fallout (the series) should be happy about it.


That they're fans of the series is what matters. Pitting the fans of different games against each other is pointless- it's a bit like pitting Tom Baker diehards against Jon Pertwee fans. Either way, they're both Whovians, and making that distinction serves no purpose other than to alienate X group for Y amount of difference. It's borderline pedantic, really.

If the games within the series are divergently different than why wouldn't we differentiate?

Shralla
5th Aug 2013, 00:40
Nope. I'm telling you that you should treat them as fans of the series, and encourage them to explore the other games in it. Inclusion, not exclusion.

It was a joooooke!

merrick97
5th Aug 2013, 02:20
This is the logic that gave us Fallout 3 and and nothing will convince me that fans of Fallout (the series) should be happy about it.



If the games within the series are divergently different than why wouldn't we differentiate?

Fallout 3 is one of my all time favorite games.

SUE ME!!!


I say: Implement the goddamn New Game+ already.

You know why? Because people want it. Some fans are asking for it, so do it. But leave it as an option. You're not forced to use it, just let it there for the noobs that dont really understand what Deus Ex is about and just want a shooter with "awsum taekdown moves". Remember guys, the more options the merrier.

Personally i wouldnt use a New Game+. In my opinion, that is pretty much cheating. But whatever

Oh cut it out with this condescending elitist gamer crap.

I get so sick of people trying to dictate how others should enjoy their games and say scrap like "you don't play it my way you dont understand the experience." Thats BS.

In order to get to New Game+ you have to play the game the way it was intended. You HAVE to. If you want to preserve that experience you start a new save every time. If you want to play the game as the "ultimate badass" you can! Amazing how that works!!!!

New Game + does NOT rob anybody of anything.

AlexOfSpades
5th Aug 2013, 02:55
Oh cut it out with this condescending elitist gamer crap.

I apologize if i came along as elitist. I take it you never played the first game?

Anyways, on the first game choosing your augs was a very hard choice. Unlike DXHR, where there is a XP system, all augs came in pairs - either you picked one, or the other. There were also limited slots, so you could only equip very few - and even upgrade canisters (to upgrade your existing augs) were rare, making you focus in just a few abilities. This ensures replayability and makes sure that an individual's game experience will be different than another's. For example, there is a battle during the first game where many people had difficulty - i had none because of my augs of choice. But i had trouble in other parts where they excelled. When i decided to play it again, do you think i'd pick the same augs? Of course not. I picked totally different new augs this time, and enjoyed it all over again in a different way. That is one of the core things in Deus Ex franchise - every choice is a sacrifice. An example: You can only have one type of stealth: Stealth to organics (guards) or to synthethics (cameras, robots, tripwires). Pick one and you'll excel in some areas but in others you'll have to think to survive. The game isnt going to hand you that ending for free you know? New Game+ would completely ruin this system. It IS against one of the core mechanics of the franchise - the choice. The game IS all about choice. What's the point of choices, now, if you can have all of them? And even worse, have them before you were supposed to? This wont just hurt the very purpose of having to pick a playstyle over another, it will also destroy the challenge that keeps the game entertaining.

I'm not saying i'm better than you because you play with NewGame+. I'm just saying i'm enjoying it the way Deus Ex - a game about choice - was meant to be enjoyed.



I get so sick of people trying to dictate how others should enjoy their games and say scrap like "you don't play it my way you dont understand the experience." Thats BS.

Calm down friend. Still, its not "my way or you dont understand". Its, "the way the franchise is about."

Imagine going to the GTA forums and complaining you cant have a normal job in the game and drive to it every day and have a salary. People will tell you that GTA isnt a game about that - its about living the life of a criminal. You're not worse than anyone for enjoying it differently, no. But, uh, you cant expect the developers to twist the original concept of the game to fit a minority's different view of the game.

And by the way, merrick, i'm a forum veteran and a die-hard fan of the series and i just went against all veterans here right now to protect YOUR right of having your NewGame+ eventhough i consider it cheating and wont use it. Because i understand its not a major change and, if implemented as an option, it wont hurt anyone. Please dont throw your hate on me, of all people.

CyberP
5th Aug 2013, 03:32
There is no point in debating (well, arguing) about it anyway. It will be in the Director's Cut, I guarantee it.


Still, its not "my way or you dont understand". Its, "the way the franchise is about."

Imagine going to the GTA forums and complaining you cant have a normal job in the game and drive to it every day and have a salary. People will tell you that GTA isnt a game about that - its about living the life of a criminal. You're not worse than anyone for enjoying it differently, no. But, uh, you cant expect the developers to twist the original concept of the game to fit a minority's different view of the game.

Indeed. Still, NG+ is a feature for the majority, hence why I am certain it will feature in the DC when it is released on the original platforms.

68_pie
5th Aug 2013, 16:33
Fallout 3 is one of my all time favorite games.

SUE ME!!!

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8s02leKjx1ql4524o1_500.gif

Are you having a stroke? Do you smell toast?

Pinky_Powers
5th Aug 2013, 17:19
This is the logic that gave us Fallout 3 and and nothing will convince me that fans of Fallout (the series) should be happy about it.

Personally, I prefer New Vegas over Fallout 3, but yes, even this fallows. The gaming landscape is infinitely better with FO3 in it, than not. Bethesda has its faults. Major ones, in my mind. But they push open world and interactivity and emergent gameplay further than anyone else in the industry.

Could their games be better? Yes. Much. But all of gaming is richer for them doing what they're doing.

merrick97
5th Aug 2013, 18:36
I apologize if i came along as elitist. I take it you never played the first game?

Anyways, on the first game choosing your augs was a very hard choice. Unlike DXHR, where there is a XP system, all augs came in pairs - either you picked one, or the other. There were also limited slots, so you could only equip very few - and even upgrade canisters (to upgrade your existing augs) were rare, making you focus in just a few abilities. This ensures replayability and makes sure that an individual's game experience will be different than another's. For example, there is a battle during the first game where many people had difficulty - i had none because of my augs of choice. But i had trouble in other parts where they excelled. When i decided to play it again, do you think i'd pick the same augs? Of course not. I picked totally different new augs this time, and enjoyed it all over again in a different way. That is one of the core things in Deus Ex franchise - every choice is a sacrifice. An example: You can only have one type of stealth: Stealth to organics (guards) or to synthethics (cameras, robots, tripwires). Pick one and you'll excel in some areas but in others you'll have to think to survive. The game isnt going to hand you that ending for free you know? New Game+ would completely ruin this system. It IS against one of the core mechanics of the franchise - the choice. The game IS all about choice. What's the point of choices, now, if you can have all of them? And even worse, have them before you were supposed to? This wont just hurt the very purpose of having to pick a playstyle over another, it will also destroy the challenge that keeps the game entertaining.

I'm not saying i'm better than you because you play with NewGame+. I'm just saying i'm enjoying it the way Deus Ex - a game about choice - was meant to be enjoyed.



Calm down friend. Still, its not "my way or you dont understand". Its, "the way the franchise is about."

Imagine going to the GTA forums and complaining you cant have a normal job in the game and drive to it every day and have a salary. People will tell you that GTA isnt a game about that - its about living the life of a criminal. You're not worse than anyone for enjoying it differently, no. But, uh, you cant expect the developers to twist the original concept of the game to fit a minority's different view of the game.

And by the way, merrick, i'm a forum veteran and a die-hard fan of the series and i just went against all veterans here right now to protect YOUR right of having your NewGame+ eventhough i consider it cheating and wont use it. Because i understand its not a major change and, if implemented as an option, it wont hurt anyone. Please dont throw your hate on me, of all people.

I appreciate this response and thus I must apologize for my hostile tone.


Personally, I prefer New Vegas over Fallout 3, but yes, even this fallows. The gaming landscape is infinitely better with FO3 in it, than not. Bethesda has its faults. Major ones, in my mind. But they push open world and interactivity and emergent gameplay further than anyone else in the industry.

Could their games be better? Yes. Much. But all of gaming is richer for them doing what they're doing.

Agreed. It may not be classic fallout, but I immensely enjoyed Fallout 3 and New Vegas.

68_pie
5th Aug 2013, 20:08
The gaming landscape is infinitely better with FO3 in it, than not.

Screwing up the Fallout canon and making a crappy game improves the gaming landscape?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/d637dc64ee9f489696f86b717eb8d3df/tumblr_mlceb1ea451qi7deco1_500.gif

Shralla
5th Aug 2013, 20:24
It did probably get us more open-world games, but most of those are crap, so....

Darthassin
6th Aug 2013, 09:16
IMO Fallout 3 is a huge game full of crappy things and sh**y gameplay mechanics.

Pinky_Powers
6th Aug 2013, 12:02
Screwing up the Fallout canon and making a crappy game improves the gaming landscape?

When that game is as large, and complex and freeform as a Bethesda game, absolutely yes. Without them, we'd have one less publisher trying for something more than a corridor shooter. That helps everyone.

68_pie
6th Aug 2013, 13:27
When that game is as large, and complex and freeform as a Bethesda game, absolutely yes. Without them, we'd have one less publisher trying for something more than a corridor shooter. That helps everyone.

I don't think we should be praising scale for scale's sake. What is achieved as a function of the size of the worlds that they create?

Bethesda games are more the way they are now than they ever have been. The complexity in terms of development does not seem to translate to complexity in terms of gameplay. The freeform/"emergent" nature amounts to doing the same small amount of things, over and over.

One fewer studio making corridor shooters would be fine if they managed to create more than just an ideal to strive towards. Making a poorly designed game that sells millions isn't helping anyone except shareholders. If they could lay down a real marker (like they almost did with Morrowind) then I would be all for praising them. Until then, I don't see how they are benefiting the gaming landscape.

Edit:


IMO Fallout 3 is a huge game full of crappy things and sh**y gameplay mechanics.

Also this.

Edit 2:

Did the term "corridor shooter" originate in England? I thought Americans said "hallway".

Karpaw
6th Aug 2013, 14:43
Seriously, you should give DXTF a chance. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously as a DX fan when you disregard a DX game without playing it, even after it gets decent reviews??

I, for one, would like to give it a chance. When is it coming out for PC, so I can give it that chance on a proper gaming rig, instead of on a device meant for couch-surfing?

FrankCSIS
7th Aug 2013, 00:07
The thing about F3 is, at the end of the day, a place like Black Mesa proved to be a lot more intriguing, mysterious, and interesting than the entire wastelands combined.

I don't necessarily want to live in a world filled with corridor-shooters, but if we are going to be trading off the wonderful calculated pacing they have to offer, I would at least like to have emergent gameplay in my open-world. What's the point of a big sandbox, if it essentially plays like a corridor-shooter, with a horrible uncontrolled pacing and narrative structure? I've got me some real big piece of real estate, and nothing to do in it!

I applaud the terrific work they must've done to put F3 together. As a gamer though, I did not gain much, if anything at all. I'm not a defender of isometric gameplay, and I could very well spend the rest of my life without them, but F1-2 had so much more to offer, in a smaller packaging. Had the wasteland been this interesting, and this open-ended, with playing techniques and choices that actually matter, I would be cheering for an unquestionable champion.

Pinky_Powers
7th Aug 2013, 19:47
but F1-2 had so much more to offer, in a smaller packaging. Had the wasteland been this interesting, and this open-ended, with playing techniques and choices that actually matter, I would be cheering for an unquestionable champion.

Fallout 1 and 2 being better than Fallout 3 is irrelevant. Hell, even whether or not Fallout 3 is a good game on its own merits is irrelevant... at least in terms of this discussion. My position exists independent of such distinctions.

In an industry where everything is linear and simplified, Bethesda builds complex worlds that run off simulation, allowing for unparallelled, player-driven sandbox fun and emergent gameplay.. If they were not doing this, practically nobody would be, and we would all be poorer for it. Whether or not you like or play their games, their existence is an example that occasionally inspires other developers in small possibly huge ways.

Thank god for them.

CyberP
7th Aug 2013, 19:56
allowing for unparallelled, player-driven sandbox fun and emergent gameplay..


False. Their design is so flawed that an inexperienced team in first person open world design came along and showed them how it's done. Obsidian's Fallout: New Vegas is better than anything Bethesda Game Studios have ever done.
That said, I still value Bethesda's existence as a developer (Morrowind, Fallout 3) and publisher. Yes, I like FO3 even though it is terribly flawed. It's a First Person Role-playing Immersive Sim, why the **** would I not like it? Oh, wait, Skyrim is one of those and I strongly dislike it.

@68Pie: The old Fallouts do have some great positives over the new, but New Vegas has far deeper gameplay which is always a winner for me. FO3 is considerably less amazing but it's still a good game, imo. But yeah, ****ting on lore is never a good thing.

Shralla
7th Aug 2013, 20:16
Bethesda builds complex worlds that run off simulation

Not really. What's simulated? Literally only what's in your immediate area. This is not Mount & Blade we're talking about. Entire kingdoms don't crumble and fall while you're off doing your thing. There is no "simulation" to Elder Scrolls, essentially. There's no tracking of supply caravans or notable characters who happened to be attacked on the other side of the country while you weren't around. There are no NPCs in cities you haven't even discovered negotiating for your assassination in real time because they heard you're up and coming. Literally nothing happens outside of a couple hundred feet from you. That fight you just stumbled in the middle of? It literally started in the middle of it. The fight was not going on before you came into view. They spawned that specifically for you to see.

That's not simulation, that's open-world hand-holding. And where you get the "complex" idea I don't even know. To bring up Mount and Blade again, that game is complex. Every single character in the game has an established relationship with not only you but also every other character in the game, and those relationships are affected by actions being taken by all the characters. That in and of itself is 100x more complex than anything in The Elder Scrolls.

Pinky_Powers
7th Aug 2013, 23:23
Not really. What's simulated?

The AI. The physics. In some games the economics. These simulations interact with each other as the player does things. Named and voiced NPCs can travel from one region to another and die randomly on the road.

Each successive Bethesda game has grown their systems and simulations. Skyrim, love it or hate it, is the most advanced game we've ever seen "in this regard."

Again, I ask you not to whine about its flaws. It has many. We all know that. Nowhere did I say Bethesda makes the best games ever. That does not in the least diminish Bethesda's efforts in a philosophy of game design largely ignored by the industry. They build words run off systems, and those systems all communicate with one another, generating a robust simulation, one that the player can manipulate and be manipulated by. Though this philosophy is still in its infancy, what they're doing is wonderful. I want to see more like it.

WildcatPhoenix
7th Aug 2013, 23:28
My problem with Bethesda's approach to design (Skyrim in particular) is the relatively static nature of the environment and scripted events. When I first started playing Skyrim I was amazed by the scale of the world and the sheer number of areas to explore. But then I slowly began to realize just how meaningless all of these encounters truly were. Around the 20th time I was forced to clear the same bandit camp on the bridge, with the exact same lines of dialogue and the exact same number of enemies, I lost all sense of immersion whatsoever. My character's actions had no permanent effect on the game world.

Or take the Stormcloak/Imperial camps. Once you complete the Civil War questline there are still pockets of enemies camped out in various places around the map. You can kill them, but they'll simply respawn a few days later (and their commanders can never be killed at all). It makes it seem as if nothing you do really matters. Your decisions have no real consequences, and in the end you're just fetching random magic items in various cut-and-pasted dungeons (gawd, those thrice-d@mned Draugr caves! ugh...)

CyberP
8th Aug 2013, 01:11
Yep, didn't take me long to recognise the extent of the terrible design of Skyrim. Say what you want about DX:HR but it deserved those GOTY awards more than Skyrim in most instances.

FrankCSIS
8th Aug 2013, 01:49
Hey don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're trying.

But right now it's not working. It's mostly cardboard and extras doing their thing as you pass by.

I don't know, maybe they should start over, with a smaller environment? Get the pacing problem sorted out. Get the people in the world to have an existence of their own. Work with smaller boxes, in greater numbers, and see if those boxes can coexist and interact, instead of one large box made of carton.

CyberP
8th Aug 2013, 02:03
Indeed. That's exactly what Obsidian did. Smaller world, higher quality of content within. Of course, it also took their design talent to do so too. Bethesda would still probably mess it up.

68_pie
8th Aug 2013, 10:00
@Pinky Please feel free to correct my if I have misinterpreted your points but to summarise your two assertions are:

1 - Bethesda constructed worlds are complex
2 - Bethesda constructed worlds encourage other devs to make open-world/non-corridor shooter games.

:scratch:

Darthassin
8th Aug 2013, 10:30
I personally can't wait for Witcher 3.

It will be bigger than Skyrim and without the quality compromise. I am expecting masterpiece beyond masterpieces. King of kings. Or better than king. God.

Pinky_Powers
8th Aug 2013, 16:58
@Pinky Please feel free to correct my if I have misinterpreted your points

You have shown me time and again that effort is not a thing you can appreciate if the final product falls short of your demands. From this perspective, you will never be able to satisfactorily interpret my points.

I'm sorry, but I have already given you my all, and I'm tired now.

68_pie
8th Aug 2013, 19:53
You have shown me time and again that effort is not a thing you can appreciate if the final product falls short of your demands.

That's a ridiculously spurious claim especially given my love for Obsidian's games.

I have no problem with a game not being as good as it might be as long as it tries to be progressive or it tries to do something interesting or it improves upon a previous game in a series. For instance, games where I absolutely appreciate the effort (even if the final product wasn't great) include:

NWN2
KotOR 2
VtmB
Far Cry 2
Alpha Protocol
The Witcher
STALKER
CoD4 (!)
ToEE

JCpies
9th Aug 2013, 10:30
Appreciating effort in a game as shallow as CoD4.

Not appreciating effort that went into making Human Revolution.

YOU SHOULDN'T DESERVE TO BE A PIE.

68_pie
9th Aug 2013, 11:26
Appreciating effort in a game as shallow as CoD4.

Not appreciating effort that went into making Human Revolution.

YOU SHOULDN'T DESERVE TO BE A PIE.

Oh, hush :rasp:

CoD4 at the time was an interesting, progressive and complete experience and I enjoyed what it was trying to do even if I didn't think it fully succeeded and I didn't like the overly scripted nature. The later games in the series either stagnated or regressed from it.