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joebarnin
7th Jul 2013, 21:17
I recently finished my third playthrough of DX:HR. It's been more than a year since my last playthrough, so I was seeing the game through somewhat fresh eyes. This is a fantastic game. You know how when you finish a good book or movie and you're kind of down for a couple of days because you miss being in that world? That's how I felt when I finished the game. Good gameplay, but more important (for me), excellent story and writing, and a believable and nuanced world.

Some of the little things I appreciated this time around:

* The music. The themes and ambient music for the various areas really work. I'm glad to hear they're using the same music guy for the new stuff.
* The minor characters. They are better than they had to be. Example: Arie van Bruggen (the dude in the Alice Garden Pods). Great character, nicely voiced. It's a minor role, but they did it well.
* The scripted side conversations (not involving Adam Jensen), especially in the hubs. They provide a good flavor of the world, if you stop and have a listen.
* Lazarus (the talk radio guy). Provides backstory and commentary in a natural and unobtrusive way. Pretty funny too!

Sure it has its flaws, but even the boss fights didn't piss me off this time around. And I enjoyed Panchaea (previously my least favorite level).

I don't know what the future will bring, but DX:HR is great on its own and a worthy successor to the original (greatest game ever IMHO).

Jeff

Berr
13th Jul 2013, 12:17
Yep I hear ya, totally agree. The side characters, discussions and even just the outfit and furniture design all came together to really make an interesting world to explore. And the music ... I've listened to it a bit more than is probably sensible, it's just great.

I can fill you in a bit on the future too :)
-iPad game 'Deus Ex: The Fall' just came out and although its not quite as good as DXHR, it works nicely if you think of it as a DLC extra content to tide us over for a while. If you have or can get to an iPad, I'd recommend it.
-A director's cut of DXHR is coming to PC and Xbox 360/PS3 later this year, with improved boss fights among other things. (I'm hanging out for that before I do my next playthrough).
-Eidos Montreal have unofficially wink-nudge let us know they are working on another full sized Deus Ex game as well. Something to really look forward to!

Pldgmygrievance
15th Aug 2013, 05:56
-Eidos Montreal have unofficially wink-nudge let us know they are working on another full sized Deus Ex game as well. Something to really look forward to!

When? Where? How? Boo.

JCpies
15th Aug 2013, 07:00
Duh, they do it through Jerion.

He is their agent they use to incite hype.

chabbles
15th Aug 2013, 17:52
Completely agree with the op. The world felt like a living breathing place, great atmosphere and the audio was amazing. Everything fit perfectly to create a fully realized and believable world.
I played every big hitter this gen, and no other game done such a good job of drawing me into the game world from start to finish, i couldnt put it down.. and was the only game this gen that after the credits stopped rolling, i started a new game instantly, i didnt want the experience to end.
I hope deus ex 4 is more of the same, but with bigger and more interactive hubs... its all about the small details.

Itkovian
15th Aug 2013, 18:32
Amen, and well said!

I can't wait for Director's Cut, so I can start a new playthrough! :)

Shralla
15th Aug 2013, 19:05
The number of people who actually like the polished turd that was the Human Revolution soundtrack is utterly disturbing, and if people keep saying they like it then we're going to get just as crappy a score for the next game. The soundtrack consisted entirely of the most generic same-sounding ambient "tones" for the duration of the game. Every track sounded like every other track, and literally nothing about any of them stood out for any reason. Every single piece of music in the game was completely forgettable, and all failed to do a good job of identifying the moment or location in the game that they represent. Unless you've spent a great deal of time listening to the soundtrack on its own, you wouldn't be able to recognize any of the songs as being from a particular part of the game when listening to them independently. Even the main theme sounds the same as all the rest of the music in the game, and is a pretty sad excuse for a main theme. With the exception of the tension building notes at the beginning, there's nothing identifiable about about it at all. If it hadn't been in all the trailers, nobody would recognize it whatsoever.

Far cry from an unforgettable theme like this. I heard Icarus almost as much as I heard this song, and there is no competition.

XxMf4BdVq_g

JCpies
15th Aug 2013, 19:31
Unless you've spent a great deal of time listening to the soundtrack on its own, you wouldn't be able to recognize any of the songs as being from a particular part of the game when listening to them independently.

Some of the music is very easily distinguishable.

Heng Sha ambient themes, Hung Hua hotel theme, Barrett fight, menu music, Icarus...

A lot of themes do sound similar though and some are unrecognisable, but does that make a bad soundtrack?

68_pie
15th Aug 2013, 19:58
Some of the music is very easily distinguishable.

Heng Sha ambient themes, Hung Hua hotel theme, Barrett fight, menu music, Icarus...

A lot of themes do sound similar though and some are unrecognisable, but does that make a bad soundtrack?

I have no problem with different pieces having a recurring motif but I am struggling to recall/distinguish anything other than the main theme.

JCpies
15th Aug 2013, 20:41
I am struggling to recall/distinguish anything other than the main theme.

Confirmed for senile.

Shralla
15th Aug 2013, 21:07
I did say it was a polished turd. Similar is one thing, unrecognizable is bad. No More Heroes literally used the melody from the theme song in half of the songs in the game yet they still sounded more distinct than anything from Human Revolution.

sadmachine
15th Aug 2013, 21:54
I got such a kick out of Lazarus I started listening to Alex Jones. Turns out a little conspiracy talk goes a long way.

WildcatPhoenix
15th Aug 2013, 22:55
The number of people who actually like the polished turd that was the Human Revolution soundtrack is utterly disturbing, and if people keep saying they like it then we're going to get just as crappy a score for the next game. The soundtrack consisted entirely of the most generic same-sounding ambient "tones" for the duration of the game. Every track sounded like every other track, and literally nothing about any of them stood out for any reason. Every single piece of music in the game was completely forgettable, and all failed to do a good job of identifying the moment or location in the game that they represent. Unless you've spent a great deal of time listening to the soundtrack on its own, you wouldn't be able to recognize any of the songs as being from a particular part of the game when listening to them independently. Even the main theme sounds the same as all the rest of the music in the game, and is a pretty sad excuse for a main theme. With the exception of the tension building notes at the beginning, there's nothing identifiable about about it at all. If it hadn't been in all the trailers, nobody would recognize it whatsoever.

It really is baffling, isn't it?

I mean, I understand if some people really cared about the characters and the world and the plot of DXHR (even if I didn't). You can at least make a reasonable case for each of those. But the music? The music was as bland and forgettable as it could possibly be. I seriously can't remember a single moment on the soundtrack that stuck out, gave me chills, got me pumped up, or evoked the slightest emotion whatsoever.

Contrast this with standout tracks from the first Deus Ex like UNATCO HQ, Wan Chai market, the Templar cathedral, and the DuClare Chateau, and there seriously is no comparison at all.

chabbles
15th Aug 2013, 23:44
Nonsense, the audio fit perfectly with the aesthetics and cyberpunk feel of the game. Personally, i loved it.

HERESY
16th Aug 2013, 03:54
As with all games I turn the music off.

JCpies
16th Aug 2013, 07:28
As with all games I turn the music off.

Isn't that too immersive for you?

vb4
16th Aug 2013, 12:00
I personally consider the first Deus Ex a very flawed game, but the music really stood out and made me go back many times.
HR's music was either unnoticeable or even annoying (the menu music started really getting on my nerves after a while). And that confuses me, because I remember the song that played in the trailers - I thought all the songs would be as noticeable as it.

To be fair, you can reason on the basis on subconscious effects. Horror movies like to do that with deep sounds. But I would prefer if I actually gained something from the game - Like a memory of the music. A good game leaves an impact, after all.

CyberP
16th Aug 2013, 12:56
I personally consider the first Deus Ex a very flawed game, but the music really stood out and made me go back many times.

You there, elaborate! There are flaws of course, but most of it is genius design.

vb4
16th Aug 2013, 16:49
I don't feel like kicking off a ****storm. But here's a careful rundown of major points.

My biggest gripe are the basic game mechanics. One aspect is the huge imbalances in the skill tree/augmentation system, the other in the stealth mechanics. Stealth is based on sound and light/shadow, but there's basically no feedback, especially concerning light exposure.
No, it's not immersive. If I was actually JC, I'd be able to know by myself if I'm making sounds or sitting in the shadow. A feedback system for that would be an abstraction of this natural ability. The HUD is already doing this with health and the quick-select bar, as well as ammo counts.

I also dislike the feel of weaponry and combat in the game. It's very static and clumsy.

So, essentially, I feel that the main mechanics of the game suck in terms of execution, but the advanced stuff (like the open storyline progression and the PnP-like feel) is actually good. The end result is that I like the game on an intelectual level but don't actually like playing it.

CyberP
16th Aug 2013, 17:28
My biggest gripe are the basic game mechanics. One aspect is the huge imbalances in the skill tree/augmentation system

Granted.


the other in the stealth mechanics. Stealth is based on sound and light/shadow, but there's basically no feedback, especially concerning light exposure.

What, you mean like a light gem? An unneccesary feature. If in shadows then lower chance to be spotted, it's simple. Besides, vanilla stealth is easy, they are insultingly blind.


If I was actually JC, I'd be able to know by myself if I'm making sounds or sitting in the shadow.

Huh? If you make a sound you'll know about it, such as footsteps. JC doesn't sit there whistling unbeknownst to the player. Why do you need handholders in the form of on screen indicators?


I also dislike the feel of weaponry and combat in the game. It's very static and clumsy.

No, it's just old. It's not really about the stealth or combat on thier own, it's the experience as a whole. Of course us modders have tried to refine the now dated or unbalanced aspects of the game but it's still good ol' DX :)


The end result is that I like the game on an intelectual level but don't actually like playing it.

I love it on all levels. :)

Darknoon
16th Aug 2013, 17:29
Hi everyone. I lurk here occasionally to see if there's any news on DX4/The fall. I like both DX1 and HR (never finished IW), but I get a bit fed up of seeing some of the aggressively negative comments posted. I had to address this one, sorry if it is not a very harmonius first post.


The number of people who actually like the polished turd that was the Human Revolution soundtrack is utterly disturbing, and if people keep saying they like it then we're going to get just as crappy a score for the next game. The soundtrack consisted entirely of the most generic same-sounding ambient "tones" for the duration of the game. Every track sounded like every other track, and literally nothing about any of them stood out for any reason. Every single piece of music in the game was completely forgettable, and all failed to do a good job of identifying the moment or location in the game that they represent. Unless you've spent a great deal of time listening to the soundtrack on its own, you wouldn't be able to recognize any of the songs as being from a particular part of the game when listening to them independently. Even the main theme sounds the same as all the rest of the music in the game, and is a pretty sad excuse for a main theme. With the exception of the tension building notes at the beginning, there's nothing identifiable about about it at all. If it hadn't been in all the trailers, nobody would recognize it whatsoever.

Far cry from an unforgettable theme like this. I heard Icarus almost as much as I heard this song, and there is no competition.

XxMf4BdVq_g
Sorry, but this comment has driven me to delurk. I enjoyed the soundtrack to the original Deus Ex, but the main theme is nowhere near as good (imo) as Icarus. The Deus Ex main theme is incredibly cheesy and OTT, lacking any kind of restraint or subtelty. It doesn't really stylistically fit with the cyberpunk theme of the game, either. I still enjoy it (particularly Yahtzee's version), but it has nowhere near the elegance, style, and brilliant build-up of Icarus. I personally think Icarus is one of the greatest video game themes of all time, and the HR soundtrack as a whole is not to shabby either.

And the "there is no distinct music" thing is ridiculous. All the Bosses have distinct themes, the menu/Sarif industries theme is pretty recognizable, and ambient music for locations such as the LIMB clinic is pretty recognizable as well. Icarus itself is regularly featured on "best video game themes" lists, unlike the DX main theme. I'd argue that "every track sounding the same" is just your lack of vision. The HR soundtrack is more consistent within itself and the universe then the original Deus Ex soundtrack, imo. That doesn't necessarily mean it's better; I agree that HR could use more distinct themes like the original. I enjoy both soundtracks, and would argue trying to argue which is better is a bit silly if you consider the different approaches they took. The original went for distinct themes, which I found hit and miss, where as HR went for a more ambient approach for most places. Neither approach is inherently worse.

Also, I hope that wasn't too harsh, but I take offense to you calling the score a "turd." Express yourself politely or not at all. That is somebody's artistic creation. Michael McCann will have put a lot of time and effort into the soundtrack, so you can at least put your view forth civily. Your comment is also insulting to the many who like the score, by suggesting they lack musical taste. Who are you to judge somebody's musical tastes? The only thing disturbing is that your vitirol pushed me to delurking...

CyberP
16th Aug 2013, 17:40
As much as I love DX1 I never really was a fan of the title music, and the Yahtzee version makes me cringe (lol). I thought the IW remix was much, much better:

73UEkea6rIs

But yes, my biggest issue was HR's soundtrack was overly subtle and the combat music was generic, but as a whole it's still a worthy addition to the game, at least when compared to other modern game's STs.

I much prefer DX1's soundtrack as a whole, but it's very subjective with music tastes.

Edit: Oh, and welcome.

Darknoon
16th Aug 2013, 18:08
Thanks for the welcome. :)

My favourite part of IW is the main theme. Quite nice.

My issue with the DX1 main theme is the world of Deus Ex is a complex and layered one, where shadowy figures pull strings behind the scenes. This is not reflected in the main theme, which is just a classic, massive main theme. The main theme for HR is much more fitting to the universe. A subtle build-up more befitting of the complexities of the game, with a big ending suiting to the world-changing climax of each game (I watched the endings for IW on youtube).

I agree the HR soundtrack needs better combat music, but I do like the street fight music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaRsuJvCDho) in detroit. The boss fight music was also pretty good IMO. Barrett's one always gets me pumped. Namir's theme is great, but not as fight music.

Jerion
16th Aug 2013, 18:13
I agree the HR soundtrack needs better combat music, but I do like the street fight music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaRsuJvCDho) in detroit. The boss fight music was also pretty good IMO. Barrett's one always gets me pumped. Namir's theme is great, but not as fight music.

The 'Home' music and Namir theme are some of the best tunes in the soundtrack, IMO. The Home track (together with the apartment itself) does a wonderful job of characterizing Adam. The Namir track is just an excellent climax reflecting Adam's personal vendetta against Jaron. It's those tracks in particular that do an excellent job of not just reflecting atmosphere, but of reflecting the plot as well.

Darknoon
16th Aug 2013, 18:26
The 'Home' music and Namir theme are some of the best tunes in the soundtrack, IMO. The Home track (together with the apartment itself) does a wonderful job of characterizing Adam. The Namir track is just an excellent climax reflecting Adam's personal vendetta against Jaron. It's those tracks in particular that do an excellent job of not just reflecting atmosphere, but of reflecting the plot as well.

I agree Home is nice, and adds to the intrigue of exploring Adam's apartment (and his character through it). Namir I do like, but I think it works better reflecting the plot side that you mentioned then it does as battle music. Just my opinion, though.

And Away We Go is another notable track, fitting for the moment it plays. I don't see how anybody could believe that sounds the same as, say, the LIMB clinic music. :scratch:

CyberP
16th Aug 2013, 20:08
street fight music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaRsuJvCDho)

Yeah that's a good one. Memorable and suitable to the location.

Lucifer
16th Aug 2013, 20:40
Look at this one .I would love to hear full version.Deus Ex 3 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBsHm4Ccz5c

HERESY
16th Aug 2013, 20:49
Isn't that too immersive for you?

No. Unless a game strives for the cinematic feel I turn the music off. Halo 4 was the exception because there is no way to turn the music off, but for all other games I kill it.

CyberP
16th Aug 2013, 21:10
No. Unless a game strives for the cinematic feel I turn the music off. Halo 4 was the exception because there is no way to turn the music off, but for all other games I kill it.

:rolleyes:

HERESY
16th Aug 2013, 21:22
:rolleyes:

So I'm shooting all these monsters, trying to survive but in the background some stupid song is playing? LMAO. No. I understand tension building, how music can be used as a dynamic to enhance a scene, but I don't want to hear music while I'm in the role of a character. I want to hear screams, the acoustics of the room, the gun shots, etc. I want to be in that world for the time being and I can't be in that world if music is playing. And mind you, I don't hear music the same way the majority of people hear it anyway. I hear the technical stuff, the compression, the panning, the delay and reverb, the phasers, the filters, the limiting, etc. I then hear the arrangement and everything else, but I can't enjoy it like you guys so I kill it.

Darknoon
16th Aug 2013, 21:27
So I'm shooting all these monsters, trying to survive but in the background some stupid song is playing? LMAO. No. I understand tension building, how music can be used as a dynamic to enhance a scene, but I don't want to hear music while I'm in the role of a character. I want to hear screams, the acoustics of the room, the gun shots, etc. I want to be in that world for the time being and I can't be in that world if music is playing. And mind you, I don't hear music the same way the majority of people hear it anyway. I hear the technical stuff, the compression, the panning, the delay and reverb, the phasers, the filters, the limiting, etc. I then hear the arrangement and everything else, but I can't enjoy it like you guys so I kill it.
I'm sorry you can't enjoy music. I can't imagine media without music, though I guess I could see the immersion aspec. I do think some games/films can't work without music, though. Imagine a soundtrack-less journey, or 2001 without Also Sprach Zarathusa and the Blue Danube...

68_pie
16th Aug 2013, 21:48
I'm sorry you can't enjoy music.

Completely not what he was saying.


I do think some games/films can't work without music, though.

And equally some are better without a score e.g. The Birds.

Darknoon
16th Aug 2013, 22:20
Completely not what he was saying.



And equally some are better without a score e.g. The Birds.
Er, yes that kind of was what he was saying, at least I think. I can't speak for him anymore then you can, but I understood that he couldn't enjoy the music because it distracted him from the sounds his character would be hearing. Maybe "enjoy" wasn't the right word, but eh.

And I agree sometimes music isn't fitting, or only fitting sparesly. I don't think Halo 4 is a game I'd think is more effective without a score, though.

68_pie
16th Aug 2013, 22:48
Er, yes that kind of was what he was saying, at least I think. I can't speak for him anymore then you can, but I understood that he couldn't enjoy the music because it distracted him from the sounds his character would be hearing. Maybe "enjoy" wasn't the right word, but eh.

You said that he "can't enjoy music" but he is only talking about music wrt playing games.

Jerion
16th Aug 2013, 22:53
Er, yes that kind of was what he was saying, at least I think. I can't speak for him anymore then you can, but I understood that he couldn't enjoy the music because it distracted him from the sounds his character would be hearing. Maybe "enjoy" wasn't the right word, but eh.

And I agree sometimes music isn't fitting, or only fitting sparesly. I don't think Halo 4 is a game I'd think is more effective without a score, though.

Not exactly. More that he doesn't hear it from emotional standpoint first and foremost; he notices the production-related aspects of it first, and in contexts where he wants to be immersed in the presentation that distracts from his enjoyment.

Darknoon
16th Aug 2013, 22:54
You said that he "can't enjoy music" but he is only talking about music wrt playing games.
Oh crap. I meant to say "you can't enjoy THE music," as in only in the context of HR. In that case I apolgize HERESY, I wasn't trying to insinuate you were a robot or something because you liked to turn the soundtracks off.

The harm a missing word can do...


Not exactly. More that he doesn't hear it from emotional standpoint first and foremost; he notices the production-related aspects of it first, and in contexts where he wants to be immersed in the presentation that distracts from his enjoyment.
He only said that after he mentioned wanting to only hear what his character hears. I guess that's part of it, but I'm not quite sure why we're all playing "guess what that poster said" lol. Hopefully HERESEY can come and tell us what he meant, since only he knows.

HERESY
18th Aug 2013, 02:42
Not exactly. More that he doesn't hear it from emotional standpoint first and foremost; he notices the production-related aspects of it first, and in contexts where he wants to be immersed in the presentation that distracts from his enjoyment.

This is very much it. I don't hear it from an emotional standpoint first it's the tech/production related stuff first. It's not my fault, you probably experience this from time to time as well. You're listening to a tune and you hear compression pumping, or maybe too much reverb on something, where something is panned, etc. And these things totally distract me when I'm playing a game. Now the sound fx and foley? They're fine. The acoustics and ambiance? They're fine. Full soundtrack? I can't hack it and it's a shame because I know I'm missing out on good music. :(

CyberP
18th Aug 2013, 03:34
This is very much it. I don't hear it from an emotional standpoint first it's the tech/production related stuff first. It's not my fault, you probably experience this from time to time as well. You're listening to a tune and you hear compression pumping, or maybe too much reverb on something, where something is panned, etc. And these things totally distract me when I'm playing a game. Now the sound fx and foley? They're fine. The acoustics and ambiance? They're fine. Full soundtrack? I can't hack it and it's a shame because I know I'm missing out on good music. :(

Interesting....I take back the rolling of the eyes then. I roll them in the opposite direction. Yes you are missing out and I wouldn't recommend playing DX1 at all then. Music is a must for some games.

So, you mentioned playing Final Fantasy 6, Tenchu 1 and more. Please tell me you didn't kill the music for these? The music fulfills those games, for example:

B4YF_T4MZBI
RDZvkqB5Jhs

Jerion
18th Aug 2013, 04:51
This is very much it. I don't hear it from an emotional standpoint first it's the tech/production related stuff first. It's not my fault, you probably experience this from time to time as well. You're listening to a tune and you hear compression pumping, or maybe too much reverb on something, where something is panned, etc. And these things totally distract me when I'm playing a game. Now the sound fx and foley? They're fine. The acoustics and ambiance? They're fine. Full soundtrack? I can't hack it and it's a shame because I know I'm missing out on good music. :(

When the mix is compressed to the point of monotonous volume, yeah, I notice it, but when production is good and clean I can easily look past it.

vb4
18th Aug 2013, 10:14
When the mix is compressed to the point of monotonous volume, yeah, I notice it, but when production is good and clean I can easily look past it.

Am I the only one who dislikes overblown dynamic ranges?
I prefer to be able to have sound active without constantly needing to slide the volume up and down because of constant differences between volumes.

Jerion
18th Aug 2013, 15:50
Am I the only one who dislikes overblown dynamic ranges?
I prefer to be able to have sound active without constantly needing to slide the volume up and down because of constant differences between volumes.

If the dynamics within a single piece of music- or at least the volume differences between different sequential pieces- are so extreme that you're constantly having to work to adjust the volume, then it has not been mixed, mastered or possibly implemented properly. There's a happy medium. This is especially true in applied mediums like games and film, where the person or people responsible not only have to manage the mix of within the music track, but also the active mix of music, SFX and speech. That said, a surprising amount of "non-applied" music is so compressed that there's little in the way of dynamic range at all, and that simply reduces the quality of the music.

Enough about this though. Back to the topic!

joebarnin
20th Aug 2013, 23:08
I wrote the OP, and let me clarify my statement about the music. I wrote "The themes and ambient music for the various areas really work", and I stand by that. I agree that the music isn't as memorable as the original DX. As standalone, memorable pieces, maybe it's not at that level. But when I'm playing the game, the music works and it fits; it provides each area with an appropriate feel. And to me, that's the important thing.

WildcatPhoenix
21st Aug 2013, 00:00
I wrote the OP, and let me clarify my statement about the music. I wrote "The themes and ambient music for the various areas really work", and I stand by that. I agree that the music isn't as memorable as the original DX. As standalone, memorable pieces, maybe it's not at that level. But when I'm playing the game, the music works and it fits; it provides each area with an appropriate feel. And to me, that's the important thing.

That's fair, I suppose. I wouldn't say the DXHR soundtrack fails at setting an appropriate mood, which is definitely important.