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P4NCH0theD0G
20th Jun 2013, 01:11
UPDATE: Director's Cut ENERGY MANAGEMENT STILL BROKEN!
Check the Videos further down. Now the TWO leftmost Energy Bars recharge, instead of only one, with everything else being the same - which completely missed the point.

Energy Management was one of the most talked and complained about features of DX:HR.

In essence, the existing mechanic - with only the left-most energy-bar recharging from "nothing", and "common actions" like a single takedown or a wall-punch costing you one full energy bar - this mechanic encouraged people to only ever have one bar charged, and only use power-ups to charge more once you need them. Eating a protein bar because you just spotted three enemies feels stupid and completely breaks immersion, but it was better than always fretting about having wasted a bar for a wall-punch, because you had eaten something when you didn't need to, used a bar that doesn't recharge instead of the one that does.

The mechanic was counter-intuitive, often being compared to running around with only one bullet in your gun, because that bullet automatically recharges, and only ever loading more bullets once you get into a situation where more than one bullet is needed. It might make sense logically, but it goes against the grain of pretty much every gamer I know. You always keep your weapon loaded, and you always keep your energy as charged as possible - except in DX:HR, of course.

With the Director's Cut many had hoped the issue might get a satisfactory resolution. They will be disappointed.

With the release around the corner, I wanted to look into this once more. I couldn't find anything specific, so I went to do a little digging, and sadly found what I was hoping NOT to find.
And I am appalled that Eidos apparently completely missed the point of all the negative feedback about the energy management. At least, that`s what it looks like to me, taken from these two videos:

_UbXvSdJ6vA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UbXvSdJ6vA
Important Sequences: @1:55-2:20; and @4:30-5:15

-35eCQG9pLY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-35eCQG9pLY
Important Sequence: @0:50-1:05

The sequences starting at 1:55, and then at 4:30 in the first vid, and at 0:50 in the second vid, show that nothing really has changed - except that now the leftmost TWO bars recharge instead of just one. NOT the first two bars used. NOT any two bars (@1:55 first vid). ONLY the leftmost two bars, no matter how many bars you have available (@4:30 first vid). And Takedowns STILL cost one full energy bar (@0:50 second vid).

Why do I call that "nothing"? Because it still "punishes" people for having more than the now two recharging energy bars filled. It doesn't solve anything. If you have all five bars charged, you STILL waste one bar for doing a single Takedown or a Wallpunch - waste, because if you only had kept your leftmost two bars filled, those would recharge. Now people will simply run around with TWO bars all the time, instead of one like it used to be - and if you need more energy for something, only then will you eat a protein bar to charge your energy (feeling stupid - "Oh, enemies. Let's eat.").

And even worse, now you can possibly do an unlimited amount of cloaked takedowns without the need to ever use protein bars at all. All you need to do is wait for your leftmost two bars to recharge in between. This might even make additional energy bars completely pointless, especially for sneaky, patient players.

Of all the possible ways they could've changed the energy management, this might not be the worst, but I think it comes pretty close. And I don't understand why.

I was very excited for the DC, but now, just thinking about this, already frustrates the hell out of me. It would have been so, so very simple to make this work out, without a new melee system, or making takedowns energy free, but this just completely misses the point. I would even say it's worse than before.



Why the energy management was/is an issue (Wall o' Text):

Along with many others (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=120318 -- http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=121214 -- http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=118053 -- http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=120318 --etc) I have felt that the Energy Management (only the first bar recharges) seemed off/restrictive/counter-intuitive.

The reasons were varied:

"Food is too rare"
"Why does a Takedown consume energy at all?"
"No cool combo moves without Food :("
"The only good way to manage energy is to only have the recharging bar charged (for exploration, wall punches and single takedowns), but it still feels silly to have to take a Snickers Break before engaging multiple enemies"
"The game feels like it penalizes you for having all your bars (if you have more than one) charged: if you have two bars charged and do two take-downs, it will cost you one bar and some time for the first to recharge; if you have three bars charged and do two take downs, it will cost you two bars; if you have five bars charged and punch through a wall simply to find out what's behind it, it costs you one bar; if you have only the first bar (that's always) charged and punch through a wall it costs you nothing but a little time"
"The current system feels like only putting bullets in your gun once you see an enemy, instead of always trying to have a full clip"

You can read all the discussions in the first linked poll-thread, but this is pretty much what the "problems with the system" boiled down to. What came out of it, was the prevalent play style of NEVER charging any extra bars until you really need them (use the recharging one for exploration, single takedowns etc, and when you need more than one bar, take a break and eat something).

On the other hand, many people have defended the system as it is/was, as everything else (suggested) would have made the game too easy. THE GAME SHOULD NOT BE MADE EASIER, and I agree. But that doesn't mean the existing system wasn't frustrating.

Personally, I always felt it was weird to have five energy bars, only ever have the first one charged unless more energy is necessary, like "Oh, Several Enemies. I need more Energy for Cool Moves, so.... STOP! Snickers Time!".

I also strongly felt penalized for charging up all 5 bars because I found some food, only to turn a corner, see a Wall I could punch, "forcing" me to waste 1 energy bar for a Wall Punch that I wouldn't have had to waste anything for, if I hadn't charged all 5 up and just remained on one bar.

The first is an immersion breaker for me, while the second is purely psychological. For me, NOT having everything full if I CAN have everything full just feels wrong.

The System really is/was like you only load your gun with bullets when you see an enemy instead of always trying to have a full clip - and to whom does that NOT feel strange?

nomotog
20th Jun 2013, 02:23
My solution is that take downs on un-alert enemies takes no bars. I found that almost all my bars went to hidden take downs and that if I didn't do them then energy was much more useable. Maybe even remove that one regenerating bar because you won't need it anymore sense you can takedown enemies without it.

CyberP
20th Jun 2013, 02:47
No need for the huge wall o' text, the best solution without a complete redesign is in your sig:


Only one Energy Bar should recharge, but should always be used first -- Or Takedowns and Wallpunches should only use 99% of one Energy Bar

P4NCH0theD0G
20th Jun 2013, 03:41
First, I'd like to know if there even still IS a problem. Because if ANY TWO BARS RECHARGE (which would be CAPITAL), I'd be perfectly happy. Which is why I want more info on what exactly "Two bars recharge" means.

Second, there may be some people that are only now getting into DXHR... like the Wii-U people. Or many people on the other platforms. And they might come here for some info, so I wanted to explain why there were concerns before.

But again, before we talk about solutions, let's hope we get some more info to determine if there even IS a problem.

CodenameD
20th Jun 2013, 05:49
First, I'd like to know if there even still IS a problem. Because if ANY TWO BARS RECHARGE (which would be CAPITAL), I'd be perfectly happy. Which is why I want more info on what exactly "Two bars recharge" means.

Second, there may be some people that are only now getting into DXHR... like the Wii-U people. Or many people on the other platforms. And they might come here for some info, so I wanted to explain why there were concerns before.

But again, before we talk about solutions, let's hope we get some more info to determine if there even IS a problem.

I don't think takedowns should require charges at all(what, your forelimbs don't work without batteries? How the hell you aimin'?) They don't give us free melee options and then they make takedowns limited by a resource pool shared with other augs??

Either that or allow takedowns to consume very little charge (like that move silent aug). If the game is too easy, then it's their fault the AI is stupid. Or the enemy placement is bad.

By almost forcing us to seek out candy bars they are contradicting their own reasoning as to why regen health must exist: they don't want us to scourge for medkits but they are completely happy lettings us scourge for energy bars!

CyberP
20th Jun 2013, 09:34
Only one Energy Bar should recharge, but should always be used first -- Or Takedowns and Wallpunches should only use 99% of one Energy Bar:

Imo this or nothing.

The vanilla system is ridiculous, but it's likely here to stay.
An extra recharging slot opens up the opportunity for takedown and cloak abuse, unless they increase the drain of those two actions.

lolwot
20th Jun 2013, 12:42
If it was up to me, none of the bars would recharge automatically. In my opinion, the problem isn't with a lack of recharging energy bars, but with the takedown mechanic itself. It seems that they chose to balance an overpowered attack by limiting its usage. I would've preferred if melee attacks were simply more interactive and challenging than pressing a button to watch a cutscene.

El_Bel
20th Jun 2013, 12:53
Also if it didn't make you immortal for the duration of the attack!

CyberP
20th Jun 2013, 13:00
In my opinion, the problem isn't with a lack of recharging energy bars, but with the takedown mechanic itself

Not opinion but fact ;)

P4NCH0theD0G
20th Jun 2013, 16:51
Takedowns was one issue, Wall Punches another. For me, Wall Punches was actually worse, because it falls under my perception of exploration.

By the middle of both my playthroughs (I'm a hoarder and a miser), I usually would have to leave protein bars and packs behind because I had no more inventory space, and just using it would've felt like a waste, especially if I knew there would be a wall to punch coming up.

But again, it seems like the energy management has been changed, so before the whole "what would be the best solution/change/version"-discussion breaks out, I would want to know exactly how the new, improved system works.

So, mods, devs, anyone at Eidos, could you ask and let us know, please?

Thank You.

Shralla
20th Jun 2013, 19:01
If it was up to me, none of the bars would recharge automatically. In my opinion, the problem isn't with a lack of recharging energy bars, but with the takedown mechanic itself. It seems that they chose to balance an overpowered attack by limiting its usage.

Seriously. They created an inherently broken mechanic and then went "oh crap how do we balance this," and even with their balancing, it's STILL overpowered because you can still just spam candy bars while you're doing takedowns.

PLEASE EM put a real melee system in the next Deus Ex. Melee combat was every bit as much of a "pillar" of the original Deus Ex as ranged combat, and it could never be reduced to a one-button canned-animation takedown. Actual melee combat would make for more interesting gameplay and would be easier to balance!

besyuziki
24th Jun 2013, 20:27
It's kind of sad when overall energy pool mechanic is such a mess for the sake of hocus pocus takedowns (which magically teleport you or make you invincible, no less).

The solution to the energy-takedown problem was as easy as implementing a manual melee combat system, with the armblades, fists, or traditional melee weapons. If energy had to be an aspect of melee, slowly drain our energy when the armblades are drawn, or add an aug like "electrostatic discharge" in Invisible War, let it drain some energy and deal extra EMP damage. I don't know, anything but the current system. :(

hybridex
27th Jun 2013, 16:59
Wishing thinking, but would be nice if there were other ways to get energy recharge aside from just taking the energy pack.. maybe being able to fight and hack a port to gain the recharge or a portable recharging device. Takes so much room to carry all those energy pack and big bottles around. Also, definitely slow down the depletion a bit.

P4NCH0theD0G
22nd Oct 2013, 00:35
I posted this in the other thread, too, but I feel this deserves more attention - specifically regarding the thread title.

Energy Management was one of the most talked and complained about features of DX:HR.

In essence, the existing mechanic - with only the left-most energy-bar recharging from "nothing", and "common actions" like a single takedown or a wall-punch costing you one full energy bar - this mechanic encouraged people to only ever have one bar charged, and only use power-ups to charge more once you need them. Eating a protein bar because you just spotted three enemies feels stupid and completely breaks immersion, but it was better than always fretting about having wasted a bar for a wall-punch, because you had eaten something when you didn't need to, used a bar that doesn't recharge instead of the one that does.

The mechanic was counter-intuitive, often being compared to running around with only one bullet in your gun, because that bullet automatically recharges, and only ever loading more bullets once you get into a situation where more than one bullet is needed. It might make sense logically, but it goes against the grain of pretty much every gamer I know. You always keep your weapon loaded, and you always keep your energy as charged as possible - except in DX:HR, of course.

With the Director's Cut many had hoped the issue might get a satisfactory resolution. They will be disappointed.

With the release around the corner, I wanted to look into this once more. I couldn't find anything specific, so I went to do a little digging, and sadly found what I was hoping NOT to find.
And I am appalled that Eidos apparently completely missed the point of all the negative feedback about the energy management. At least, that`s what it looks like to me, taken from these two videos:

_UbXvSdJ6vA
Important Sequences: @1:55-2:20; and @4:30-5:15

-35eCQG9pLY
Important Sequence: @0:50-1:05

The sequences starting at 1:55, and then at 4:30 in the first vid, and at 0:50 in the second vid, show that nothing really has changed - except that now the leftmost TWO bars recharge instead of just one. NOT the first two bars used. NOT any two bars (@1:55 first vid). ONLY the leftmost two bars, no matter how many bars you have available (@4:30 first vid). And Takedowns STILL cost one full energy bar (@0:50 second vid).

Why do I call that "nothing"? Because it still "punishes" people for having more than the now two recharging energy bars filled. It doesn't solve anything. If you have all five bars charged, you STILL waste one bar for doing a single Takedown or a Wallpunch - waste, because if you only had kept your leftmost two bars filled, those would recharge. Now people will simply run around with TWO bars all the time, instead of one like it used to be - and if you need more energy for something, only then will you eat a protein bar to charge your energy (feeling stupid - "Oh, enemies. Let's eat.").

And even worse, now you can possibly do an unlimited amount of cloaked takedowns without the need to ever use protein bars at all. All you need to do is wait for your leftmost two bars to recharge in between. This might even make additional energy bars completely pointless, especially for sneaky, patient players.

Of all the possible ways they could've changed the energy management, this might not be the worst, but I think it comes pretty close. And I don't understand why.

I was very excited for the DC, but now, just thinking about this, already frustrates the hell out of me. It would have been so, so very simple to make this work out, without a new melee system, or making takedowns energy free, but this just completely misses the point. I would even say it's worse than before.

Shralla
22nd Oct 2013, 01:47
This did not really need a new thread after you already bumped the thread that you made on the subject.

CyberP
22nd Oct 2013, 03:15
Hey OP, your suggestions (wall punch/takedowns drain 99% mostly) were great patch-ups to the system, shame they were ignored, but that should come as no surprise I guess.

Don't worry about the two bar recharge addition being OP (which it certainly will be), it's exclusive to easy & normal; only 1 bar charge on hard. This is somewhat good, only I like to play on normal sometimes, now I'll be forced to hard, but I suppose I could do with the extra incentive anyway, especially if they have done more things that are only true/false on hard, fingers crossed.

P4NCH0theD0G
22nd Oct 2013, 13:04
This did not really need a new thread after you already bumped the thread that you made on the subject.

First, I did not "bump" the thread. I brought new information to address the question posed in this thread, which is pretty much the opposite of bumping.

Second, yes, it did deserve a new thread to unequivocally tell the people that had hoped for better Energy Management in the DC, that they will NOT get it.

Anyway, I updated the first post in this, and hopefully the people that care about it will see it, preferably before they buy the DC and are let down.

Galnospoke
22nd Oct 2013, 14:26
And I am appalled that Eidos apparently completely missed the point of all the negative feedback about the energy management. At least, that`s what it looks like to me, taken from these two videos:


Eidos? Fixes? Be serious. This is twice selling the same product. Eidos fu@k their loyal customers - sorry for words, but this is sumple true.

P4NCH0theD0G
22nd Oct 2013, 15:51
i just don't get it. Why make any "changes" at all to the Energy Management, when in effect it does not address any issues, problems or feedback?

I'm glad they changed the boss-fights and everything, but when I think about what annoyed me the most playing the original game, it was
A) "Ok. Now to use my last Protein to fill up my Energy to prepare for the boss fight where I will need full 5 bars. Wait. Is that a punchable Wall? NOOOOOOOOOOO!"
B) "Ah. Enemies. That calls for a Snickers Break".

And people have been saying this over and over since the game released, and somehow they completely ignored it.

I even got into email contact with one of the designers, JF Dugas, who said the reason behind the system was to stop the game from being a "Takedown Festival", and that was not what the game was about.

Well, it will be a Cloaked Takedown Festival, now. And yet, you will still be annoyed to waste protein and energy bars on things you shouldn't have to waste them on.

CyberP
22nd Oct 2013, 15:58
Indeed, a Takedown festival is what it shall now be with two permanently recharging bars, especially when recharge speed is upgraded fully.

That said, the system works as it is vanilla. Not exactly broken, just terribly flawed for the sake of takedowns.

Edit: Whoops, that suggestion I posted earlier is already in the game, silly me.

merrick97
22nd Oct 2013, 16:04
Indeed, a Takedown festival is what it shall now be with two permanently recharging bars, especially when recharge speed is upgraded fully.

That said, the system works as it is. Not exactly broken, just terribly flawed for the sake of takedowns.

I loved being a takedown machine!

CyberP
22nd Oct 2013, 16:49
I loved being a takedown machine!

That's because you don't know better ;)

merrick97
22nd Oct 2013, 16:58
That's because you don't know better ;)

I know that I love doing this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvAe86KyWg

CyberP
22nd Oct 2013, 17:01
Lol. That's one way of handling the situation with 0 casualties I suppose. Good work Adam!

Shralla
22nd Oct 2013, 19:33
First, I did not "bump" the thread. I brought new information to address the question posed in this thread, which is pretty much the opposite of bumping.

When was the last post in that thread before your new one? Four months ago? That's called bumping. And in addition to your necropost in that thread, you also made a new thread right next to it on the message list with exactly the same information.


Second, yes, it did deserve a new thread to unequivocally tell the people that had hoped for better Energy Management in the DC, that they will NOT get it.

Well it sure seems like the mods don't agree with you here, and while I may not agree with them all the time, I certainly do in this situation. The people who frequent the forum pretty much read every new thread, especially if it has to do with the design of the game. You could have just posted a new thread and everybody would have seen it without resurrecting your old one.

I'm not trying to get on your case, but your posts got merged for a reason. Posting the same information in two mostly recent threads is one thing. Resurrecting a thread that hasn't been posted in in four months and then posting a new thread with the same information is different, and definitely frowned upon.

Regarding the actual subject of the thread, this sucks. They made the system worse instead of better. If these are the kind of changes we can expect from the next Deus Ex game, count me out.

Berr
22nd Oct 2013, 22:03
I am disappoint.

I too thought an obvious and good solution would be to make wall punches and takedowns use 90%(ish) of an energy bar.

Cyberhuman
22nd Oct 2013, 22:11
So, two energy cells will automatically recharge instead of just one. Can this be confirmed now? If so, does this apply to the "Give me Deus Ex" difficulty as well? That would be unfortunate..

P4NCH0theD0G
23rd Oct 2013, 15:44
The videos would indicate that the leftmost two cells will automatically recharge. If you use up cells 3, 4 or 5, once they're fully depleted they won't recharge (like after a wall punch).

Someone in this thread said that only normal and easy have two cells, harder modes have only one, but that is unconfirmed.

CyberP
23rd Oct 2013, 15:47
Someone in this thread said that only normal and easy have two cells, harder modes have only one, but that is unconfirmed.

You'll just have to trust me. I know I've read it somewhere more than once, from an official source.

Caradoc
23rd Oct 2013, 23:05
In my opinion: the issue lies with the automatic WIN button aka the takedown key. I love the concept, but the execution is less than perfect. In dx hr all you need to do is get close to an enemy and push the takedown key and its a home run. So to balance this devs had to obviously restrict it's usage some way. Thus their solution was linking melee combat to the bio energy bar which in my honest opinion was the silliest idea. If Adam can jump, run, climb, shoot etc without using bio energy, why would punching an enemy cost energy? It just doesn't make any sense.

I think this kind of automatic takedown system was from the begining with an huge design oversight. In dx hr, taking down an enemy doesn't require any skill at all, other than getting close to such enemy and perhaps dragging said enemy body to cover. I don't understand why dev team thought this kind of automatic win button was a good idea.

I think melee should have been more dynamic. Instead of being automatic like it is in Dx hr, it should have required skill and strategy from the player. Enemies should have also been able to resist melee attacks, atleast the non-stealthy ones.

And why on earth does a time stop while Adam goes for a melee kill? Shouldn't the surrounding enemies be raining him with bullets if they saw one of their buddies being attacked?

P4NCH0theD0G
24th Oct 2013, 01:18
While the melee system might be flawed, it`s too interwoven into the game design to really be changed, even with the director's cut. Whereas an adjustment of the Energy Management System apparently was doable. Sadly, said adjustment is not really improving things.

I don't mind having to "pay" in energy for a takedown. It's a game mechanic I can live with. I do mind however being punished (being forced to waste/sacrifice an energy cell for single takedowns or wall-punches) if I decide to explore with more than the one (or now two) recharging energy cells filled.

Every instinct of my over 25 years of gaming experience tells me to always keep my energy filled as much as I can, whenever I can. DX:HR punishes me for that - and for no reason.

If only Wallpunches and Single Takedowns cost only 99% of an energy cell, you wouldn't be punished for exploration, and yet still couldn't do infinite cloaked takedowns - something you now can do, if only you wait a bit after each one. It wouldn't have made things easier. It wouldn't have changed the need to manage your energy and protein. It wouldn't have changed the game's focus to becoming a takedown festival.

All it would have done is enable you to keep all your cells charged, and do a wall-punch or a single takedown, without having to lose one cell. If I have only one cell charged and do a wall-punch I lose nothing. I have four cells charged I lose one cell. Why does that make sense to anyone?

And it's really frustrating - no, actually it's infuriating - that with all the negative feedback and great suggestions that came out of the vanilla energy management, they chose an option that made it worse. There's a difference between standing up for your decisions because you believe in them and just being contrary and stubborn.

Caradoc
24th Oct 2013, 13:09
While the melee system might be flawed, it`s too interwoven into the game design to really be changed, even with the director's cut. Whereas an adjustment of the Energy Management System apparently was doable. Sadly, said adjustment is not really improving things.

I don't mind having to "pay" in energy for a takedown. It's a game mechanic I can live with. I do mind however being punished (being forced to waste/sacrifice an energy cell for single takedowns or wall-punches) if I decide to explore with more than the one (or now two) recharging energy cells filled.

Every instinct of my over 25 years of gaming experience tells me to always keep my energy filled as much as I can, whenever I can. DX:HR punishes me for that - and for no reason.

If only Wallpunches and Single Takedowns cost only 99% of an energy cell, you wouldn't be punished for exploration, and yet still couldn't do infinite cloaked takedowns - something you now can do, if only you wait a bit after each one. It wouldn't have made things easier. It wouldn't have changed the need to manage your energy and protein. It wouldn't have changed the game's focus to becoming a takedown festival.

All it would have done is enable you to keep all your cells charged, and do a wall-punch or a single takedown, without having to lose one cell. If I have only one cell charged and do a wall-punch I lose nothing. I have four cells charged I lose one cell. Why does that make sense to anyone?

And it's really frustrating - no, actually it's infuriating - that with all the negative feedback and great suggestions that came out of the vanilla energy management, they chose an option that made it worse. There's a difference between standing up for your decisions because you believe in them and just being contrary and stubborn.

Yeah you're right and I wasn't really expecting them to redo entire melee combat, but I'm hoping to see more balanced and player driven melee combat systems in their future titles. We wouldn't have this discussion if the melee combat wasn't so over powered.

I don't disagree with your ideas how to rebelance energy management. I'd certainly welcome such changes as it would mean less grinding and waiting. Sadly Eidos decided just to bandage the issue, instead of really thinking it through, like you suggested.

Anyhow I can't wait to play my copy of director's cut tomorrow and experience the game again :)

P4NCH0theD0G
24th Oct 2013, 16:43
I was thinking about that, getting the DC, but I heard about major issues with the Xbox Version (no HDD install?), and with the Energy Management now being something of a personal grudge for me, I don't think I could stand it.

Which is quite sad...

pdx mm
24th Oct 2013, 23:20
So, two energy cells will automatically recharge instead of just one. Can this be confirmed now? If so, does this apply to the "Give me Deus Ex" difficulty as well? That would be unfortunate..

No it doesn't still only have one cell recharge on that setting.

HERESY
25th Oct 2013, 02:59
1. I thought energy consumption was different on the highest level?

2. In a classic post I asked about the wii U controller being on the screen. I was told it wouldn't be on the screen. Now this guy posts vids of the wii U version and it has the wii controller, lol.

SE and EM will be the next THQ. Mark my words.

CyberP
25th Oct 2013, 04:59
1. I thought energy consumption was different on the highest level?

Yeah, I could've sworn I read that somewhere.


SE and EM will be the next THQ. Mark my words.

We'll see, Mr. Classic Post. I'll hold you to that.

With all the milking that has been going on, I doubt it.
They need to up their game though, the quality of their games, that's for sure. I am a huge fan of games under Squaresoft and Eidos...games from before the year 2004.
Since then, the merge with Enix and the acquisition of Eidos, only DX:HR has been worthy as a game, but barely as Deus Ex.

OK OK they have put out some above average games (FFXII for example) but nothing special. More trashy products than good.

CyberP
25th Oct 2013, 20:21
1. I thought energy consumption was different on the highest level?

Whoops, I misread that.

No, in the vanilla game energy consumption was the same across all difficulties.
As far as I can tell, the only variations across the difficulties are:

Health Regeneration Increment Speed
Health Regeneration Activation Delay (time before regeneration activates, after taking no damage for x amount of time)

For the DC, they could have made numerous changes to GMDX mode to make it a better game, all things that do not have to be designed to cater to the casual gamer, but I guess they just don't care, or think the game systems are fine as they are....except that cannot be, as they add some new "cool" things which just make the game worse.

Why!? Sure, you want to appeal to the masses, make it "playable" for all. but what harm is there in making the game much better through GMDX mode?
Design is everything. Design is what separates Deus Ex from Gears of War or any other mindless game out there.
I want to know why things are the way they are. Why you make the decisions you do. I can think of many reasons, but none are justifiable.

At least give me the damn tools so I can do it myself, and from the popularity of my rendition of DX:HR you can see that you do not need to play it safe all the damn time.

Jerion
25th Oct 2013, 20:27
At least give me the damn tools so I can do it myself

Personally speaking, I think mod tools make everything better for the community when it comes to rich single-player games. I'd like to have seen what you might have done with HR. :)

CyberP
25th Oct 2013, 20:52
Personally speaking, I think mod tools make everything better for the community when it comes to rich single-player games. I'd like to have seen what you might have done with HR. :)

Thanks man.

I wrote up a design doc for it a while back, is on another computer, was going to pitch it to them but it would have been futile :(

It's a really great game but in less than a year it can be an exceptional game. I would need a few of my buddies with me though, of course.
I like to talk big but I'm useless without a team, naturally. But all the design ideas are up there, in my head.

HERESY
25th Oct 2013, 21:15
RPS said the energy replenishes two cells except for the hardest difficulty. I haven't started playing my FREE copy so I cannot confirm yet.

CyberP
27th Oct 2013, 02:06
Personally, I wish people would stop complaining about the energy consumption. They FIXED this as far as I'm concerned. It works MUCH better. I always used to buy the recharge-2, recharge-3 mod, and never understood why they didn't charge up more than one cell.

It makes a lot more sense to have two cells charge up freely, without having to eat a snickers, etc. Granted, it would be a bit better if takedowns and other stuff didn't cost energy at all, but who cares? It's still an improvement.


Not if you have any grasp or caring of the concept of gameplay and difficulty balance. The lead designer (JFD not Emile) said it himself: a "takedown festival".

Tell me, if you were lead designer and made takedowns not consume battery energy, then what would you do with the takedowns in terms of design? Anything?

Riddik116
27th Oct 2013, 02:47
Not if you have any grasp or caring of the concept of gameplay and difficulty balance. The lead designer (JFD not Emile) said it himself: a "takedown festival".

Tell me, if you were lead designer and made takedowns not consume battery energy, then what would you do with the takedowns in terms of design? Anything?

Even with battery consumption it is still a "takedown festival", the only difference the player has to wait more or carry the recharge packs. By design they screwed it from the start with having the takedowns stop time and being essentially a "Win" button. They should have had some kind of takedown similar to dishonored instead, that way its in real time and plus that would mean there would have been a real melee button.

CyberP
27th Oct 2013, 03:17
Even with battery consumption it is still a "takedown festival", the only difference the player has to wait more or carry the recharge packs. By design they screwed it from the start with having the takedowns stop time and being essentially a "Win" button. They should have had some kind of takedown similar to dishonored instead, that way its in real time and plus that would mean there would have been a real melee button.

Of course, that's been said many times in this thread alone, but the point is this battery system change we request is so damn effortless to add to one of the patches, it's a reasonable request, whereas completely changing takedowns to work as in Dishonored (which were much better, yes, as they had to unaware of the player or on their last legs) is not a reasonable request at all. That one is for DX4. Though I'd still prefer it to work a dfferent way. A way that has never been done before, another one of my ideas.

P4NCH0theD0G
27th Oct 2013, 11:46
Takedowns cost no energy? Do you know what happens during a takedown?

Upon initiation of a takedown, Jensen's augments create a temporary, localized, singularity-scale graviton field, allowing Jensen to drag his victims into under-space, slipping between super-strings, and for a few moments they side-step into the blind spot of time.

Stepping outside of time, does that sound like it shouldn't need a little energy?

CyberP
27th Oct 2013, 15:48
I'd also be interested to know, if the DC will become available as "Game on Demand" Download - something that could possibly circumvent these issues altogether. Well, except the Energy Management :P

Don't know why you are obsessing over the energy system so much, we have bigger problems. And no it's not UNATCO.

Still a valid point though, of course. But if you are to take my place as a moaner, you gotta up your game man. :D

Spyhopping
27th Oct 2013, 16:09
Still a valid point though, of course. But if you are to take my place as a moaner, you gotta up your game man. :D

He's being far too agreeable, we even have a cheerful smiley at the end of the post. Replace with this for maximum grumpy effect: :mad2:

P4NCH0theD0G
27th Oct 2013, 18:27
I'm not being obsessive. I just didn't understand why something so small, yet significant, was overlooked or misunderstood on the way to the Director's Cut.

Yes, sure, right now the DC on Xbox has bigger problems, but that shouldn't mean that something small could not be sneaked into a Patch. Specifically because it is something small.
I don't know much about coding for games, but I would imagine that a change from 100% of one Energy Cell to 99% of one Energy Cell can not really be that difficult to do.

And since there is obviously a severe need for a Title Update for the DC to increase and/or enable basic functionality of the game, my hope was to remind people of one other thing they could change. While they're at it.

Berr
28th Oct 2013, 00:00
Takedowns cost no energy? Do you know what happens during a takedown?

Upon initiation of a takedown, Jensen's augments create a temporary, localized, singularity-scale graviton field, allowing Jensen to drag his victims into under-space, slipping between super-strings, and for a few moments they side-step into the blind spot of time.

Stepping outside of time, does that sound like it shouldn't need a little energy?

hahahaha this is great!

It all makes so much sense now!

P4NCH0theD0G
28th Oct 2013, 14:39
hahahaha this is great!

It all makes so much sense now!

I thought everybody knew that. Otherwise, the whole thing makes no sense... ;)