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jimmyoneshot
19th May 2013, 20:34
I was always a massive fan of Deus Ex back in the day and although we were given freedom to do whatever we want I always wondered whilst playing what was the canon JC Denton supposed to be like as in if he himself was in the game what would he do? I think we get an impression of what he actually is like in Invisible War and from this I gathered that he would likely:-

- Be a complete pacifist only knocking out and never killing except when unavoidable
- Sneak everywhere as opposed to blowing and shooting things up
- Side with nsf, lebedev etc
- Support his brother constantly

I've literally bought HR today and I'm now wondering the same thing about Adam Jensen. I wonder things like:-

- Would he shoot all of those guys in the prologue or just sneak past?
- Would he be a pacifist, sneaking like JC or just wipe out everybody in sight?
- Would he ignore snide comments from the likes of Pritchard and rise about it or argue with everyone?

I know these choices are left to us but I always wonder how did the writers imagine him to be played out?

This may sound a bit sad but it's just how I think when I play RPGs

Jerion
19th May 2013, 22:20
From my personal perspective while trying to reconcile the potential options available to shaping Adam's journey with how he acts in the fixed story moments*, Adam strikes me as a fellow that would prefer to investigate and remain nonlethal/diplomatic/sneaky as a default. He also, however, seemed like a fellow that wouldn't hesitate to use lethal force if he felt it necessary or if he were forced into that sort of confrontation with genuine bad guys.

*It seems nearly impossible to reconcile his behavior in some of those moments with one another IMO.

Pinky_Powers
19th May 2013, 22:46
I do some of that too, though I put much more of myself into it. I try to imagine how I would react if I were living through these events. Would I forgive that person, or what I hold a grudge? Would I accept that order, or find another way? This is complicated quite a bit by my attempt to heed the background of the character as well. But I always play through the lens of my own morality.

MasterTaffer
20th May 2013, 00:37
From my personal perspective while trying to reconcile the potential options available to shaping Adam's journey with how he acts in the fixed story moments*, Adam strikes me as a fellow that would prefer to investigate and remain nonlethal/diplomatic/sneaky as a default. He also, however, seemed like a fellow that wouldn't hesitate to use lethal force if he felt it necessary or if he were forced into that sort of confrontation with genuine bad guys.

*It seems nearly impossible to reconcile his behavior in some of those moments with one another IMO.

He's a former cop, so this assessment is probably pretty accurate. I sincerely doubt he's a pacifist and he is willing to use deadly force when it's justified to do so, while at the same time opting for nonlethal takedowns and nonconfrontational methods when it's not.

FrankCSIS
20th May 2013, 03:39
Like Clint Eastwood. He'd blow your brains out without hesitation, so long as it were the moral thing to do :p

Pinky_Powers
20th May 2013, 14:47
It's true. A cop's psychology is nearly identical to a criminal's. Generally speaking, pacifism isn't in the cards.

CyberP
20th May 2013, 14:54
It's true. A cop's psychology is nearly identical to a criminal's. Generally speaking, pacifism isn't in the cards.

Bull****, and no bull**** study can prove otherwise. Psychologists can ****, you cannot take individuals of one group and label them all the same. If we are talking about the average cop, I'm still calling bull**** without reasoning, much like a psychologist, eh.

Sure, psychologist's have their place, but it's hardly a profession for most, more like guess work & otherwise stating the obvious.

68_pie
20th May 2013, 15:00
S0P8TSP2YJU

MasterTaffer
20th May 2013, 15:28
It's true. A cop's psychology is nearly identical to a criminal's. Generally speaking, pacifism isn't in the cards.

Careful, man. That's the type of thing you better have evidence for.

Also, as a former cop I'm a little miffed by that accusation.


Bull****, and no bull**** study can prove otherwise. Psychologists can ****, you cannot take individuals of one group and label them all the same. If we are talking about the average cop, I'm still calling bull**** without reasoning, much like a psychologist, eh.

Sure, psychologist's have their place, but it's hardly a profession for most, more like guess work & otherwise stating the obvious.

I appreciate the passion, but not the outburst nature of it. Keep it clean in the future.

Spyhopping
20th May 2013, 15:37
^ My Dad's an ex-cop, but I'm not taking it personally because it's a wide statement, and I don't think Pinky meant it in that light. Anyway, in the UK at least, these days the police have difficulty moving an inch before they are buried with paper work. I don't think they are effective enough, and the approach is sometimes far too cautious.


Bull****, and no bull**** study can prove otherwise. Psychologists can ****, you cannot take individuals of one group and label them all the same. If we are talking about the average cop, I'm still calling bull**** without reasoning, much like a psychologist, eh.

Sure, psychologist's have their place, but it's hardly a profession for most, more like guess work & otherwise stating the obvious.

You have a perfectly valid point about not blindly labelling a group of individuals, but your point is almost unreadable because of all the expletives. Keep it clean please.

I have a psych degree, and I'm doubtful about it's validity as a profession. However, it is certainly not in the league of guess work and stating the obvious. Professional psychologists like their labels, but it's not as crude as you're suggesting.

ANYWAY, back on track. Nice thread idea. My idea of AJ was that he's a pacifist on the edge. Non lethal and merciful, but when things got really tough, he'd keep it discreet and wouldn't be averse to lethal force.

CyberP
20th May 2013, 15:50
I have a psych degree, and I'm doubtful about it's validity as a profession. However, it is certainly not in the league of guess work and stating the obvious. Professional psychologists like their labels, but it's not as crude as you're suggesting.

Sorry lady, I meant no offence, much like Pinky. Now use your Psych degree to figure out why I had an outburst like that, if you can :rasp:

I'm just teasing :lol:



ANYWAY, back on track. Nice thread idea. My idea of AJ was that he's a pacifist on the edge. Non lethal and merciful, but when things got really tough, he'd keep it discreet and wouldn't be averse to lethal force.

As I mentioned before JC and Jensen are schizophrenic for the majority of players. Just pointing out the obvious :)
They talk of virtue, and justice, and what is good for humanity, yet they steal everything in sight, kill whomever they deem appropriate, and all other kinds of corrupt behaviour. Of course not every player kills but nearly ALL steal everything in sight and break into homes, yet their characters written do not reflect this behavior.

AJ is a futuristic robo Robin Hood who fakes being morally correct in front of others, or just plain ******* all round, depending on the player. Or a heavy mental defect displaying completely random behavior. I'm just guessing and labeling him :0

MasterTaffer
20th May 2013, 15:53
^ My Dad's an ex-cop, but I'm not taking it personally because it's a wide statement, and I don't think Pinky meant it in that light. Anyway, in the UK at least, these days the police have difficulty moving an inch before they are buried with paper work. I don't think they are effective enough, and the approach is sometimes far too cautious.

Such is the danger of wide statements. When they're too broad you end up grouping in people who shouldn't be in it.

And police should be restrained by procedure and paperwork. It's very easy to abuse authority while at the same time it's very difficult being the proper good guys. Police overkill and prosecutorial misconduct are becoming/already an issue because the checks on their authority are more lax.

It's a tricky balance at the end of the day.

Spyhopping
20th May 2013, 15:57
Such is the danger of wide statements. When they're too broad you end up grouping in people who shouldn't be in it.

And police should be restrained by procedure and paperwork. It's very easy to abuse authority while at the same time it's very difficult being the proper good guys. Police overkill and prosecutorial misconduct are becoming/already an issue because the checks on their authority are more lax.

It's a tricky balance at the end of the day.

True, but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt if I know them to be reasonable, and assume that the wide statement is just applied lightly with a peppering of assumption. 'Cause otherwise it's just assuming narrow mindedness.

As for the police bit- they should be restrained by paperwork to an extent, but not to a stage where they are redundant and can't move. In my Dad's day things were less restrained (which is a bit dodgy in itself) but they locked up some seriously dangerous people. They did a good job.



Sorry lady, I meant no offence, much like Pinky. Now use your Psych degree to figure out why I had an outburst like that, if you can :rasp:

I'm just teasing :lol:

Haha thanks but don't worry, no offence taken- I'm a defector ;). All I picked up was a feeling for the fallacy of the subject as a science, but it's excellent fun where it strays into biology. Neuroscience is very useful and interesting.

-------
Let's stick to discussion about AJ's character and take this over to the GD spot so we don't derail jimmyoneshot's thread.... unless you think this is relevant. In which case I'll be quiet.

Ilves
20th May 2013, 16:10
How much did AJ being a cop* really weigh into the overall HR experience?

DX explored the role of law & order and law enforcement explicitly, leading to such gems as "When due process fails us etc etc". I can't think of anything equally memorable regarding those themes from HR.

*) SWAT specifically, that might be an important distinction when it comes to dealing with threats. :scratch:

CyberP
20th May 2013, 16:10
Neuroscience is very useful and interesting.


:)

Psychology itself certainly has it's place, every aspect....I was just ranting.

I am not qualified to criticize the field proper, and in doing so makes me a douchebag.

You however mostly agree, so...... :)

Spyhopping
20th May 2013, 16:18
How much did AJ being a cop* really weigh into the overall HR experience?

DX explored the role of law & order and law enforcement explicitly, leading to such gems as "When due process fails us etc etc". I can't think of anything equally memorable regarding those themes from HR.

*) SWAT specifically, that might be an important distinction when it comes to dealing with threats. :scratch:

I'd like to think it developed AJ's sense of duty and desire to take the helm to do something practical about a situation. He probably feels that he's still not a civilian, and that he still needs to care for them.


:)

Psychology itself certainly has it's place, every aspect....I was just ranting.

Feel free to continue. I'll probably join in.

Ilves
20th May 2013, 16:43
I'd like to think it developed AJ's sense of duty and desire to take the helm to do something practical about a situation. He probably feels that he's still not a civilian, and that he still needs to care for them.



That's a dude thing, not a cop thing. AJ's main quest was never framed as serving the public interest; it was very, very personal, i.e. girlfriend, revenge.

But I suppose AJ being a cop was sort of fleshed out in the Cloak and Daggers sidequest, though. Dirty cops, taking justice into ones own hand vs rendering the crook to the authorities were issues there.

And the game touched on the repercussions of following orders with the ex colleague at the Police station. Okay, I concede. :D

Spyhopping
20th May 2013, 17:13
You're right, he got out there on his personal motivations, but then he gets deeper into it all and just keeps on going. Toward the end, Megan didn't seem to be a consideration any more. Just because the OP has only just bought the game I'll spoiler tag the following... My interpretation of AJ's choice to go to Panchea alone was that is was very selfless and totally in the public interest. Had he got this from the police? Probably not. It seemed like a good part of the character arc we saw during the events of the game.

MasterTaffer
20th May 2013, 17:22
You're right, he got out there on his personal motivations, but then he gets deeper into it all and just keeps on going. Toward the end, Megan didn't seem to be a consideration any more. Just because the OP has only just bought the game I'll spoiler tag the following... My interpretation of AJ's choice to go to Panchea alone was that is was very selfless and totally in the public interest. Had he got this from the police? Probably not. It seemed like a good part of the character arc we saw during the events of the game.

One could argue his joining the police force in the first place is the result of his drive to do the right thing, rather than said drive coming from his time as a police officer.

Pinky_Powers
20th May 2013, 17:25
Well, I've successfully riled some folk up. :D Though, that was not my intention.

Neither was it my intention to decry the mentality of police. I was merely regurgitating what I had heard, so I have no first-hand knowledge or easy access to said studies. But it makes sense to me. Both sides of the war on crime operate in a realm of violence or potential violence, so it would indeed require a certain type of person to be drawn into it. And to be a good cop you must be absolutely willing to fire without a second's hesitation. That is not a pacifist, no matter how you examine it.

I don't say cops and criminals are psychologically identical in every way. Far from it, actually. But they must surely share a number of prime traits.

There's no reason to be indignant of that, whether it's true or not. As Dumbledore would say, "It's not our abilities that tell us who we are. It is our choices." To become an officer of the law you must make a vastly different choice than those who become crooks. And therefore you are indelibly separate.

MasterTaffer
20th May 2013, 17:28
Well, I've successfully riled some folk up. :D Though, that was not my intention.

Neither was it my intention to decry the mentality of police. I was merely regurgitating what I had heard, so I have no first-hand knowledge or easy access to said studies. But it makes sense to me. Both sides of the war on crime operate in a realm of violence or potential violence, so it would indeed require a certain type of person to be drawn into it. And to be a good cop you must be absolutely willing to fire without a second's hesitation. That is not a pacifist, no matter how you examine it.

I don't say cops and criminals are psychologically identical in every way. Far from it, actually. But they must surely possess a number of prime traits.

There's no reason to be indignant of that, whether it's true or not. As Dumbledore would say, "It's not our abilities that tell us who we are. It is our choices." To become an officer of the law you must make a vastly different choice than those who become crooks. And therefore you are indelibly separate.

Far better worded, good sir. :thumb:

jimmyoneshot
20th May 2013, 20:21
Thanks for all the replies. Some good thoughts here. Loving the game so far and I'm only on the second level, just after the prologue.

I agree with some of the assessments here, for example, although I have no idea who the mercs that attack during the prologue are yet, it seems to me that they all deserve a shot in the head based on the fact that they are killing innocent scientists right in front of Jensen and killing them would stop them from rampaging further.

However we are given the impression that the mercs in the second level are just kids from the street who have been convinced into commiting acts of terror by Zeke Sanders. It would therefore be best to knock them all out to avoid swat having to kill any of them later as they don't deserve to die. I used the same reasoning in deus ex when I knocked out every nsf I seen around the statue before finishing the level :)

Pinky_Powers
20th May 2013, 22:28
However we are given the impression that the mercs in the second level are just kids from the street who have been convinced into commiting acts of terror by Zeke Sanders. It would therefore be best to knock them all out to avoid swat having to kill any of them later as they don't deserve to die. I used the same reasoning in deus ex when I knocked out every nsf I seen around the statue before finishing the level :)

Yep. That's how I play it too. There are certain villains I have no compunction over felling, but when I deem my opponents ignorant or deceived, I go gently. I'll even roam the map knocking them all out so there will be no bloodshed after I'm gone.

CyberP
20th May 2013, 23:20
Yep. That's how I play it too. There are certain villains I have no compunction over felling, but when I deem my opponents ignorant or deceived, I go gently. I'll even roam the map knocking them all out so there will be no bloodshed after I'm gone.

Pfft. I'm not restricted by some self-imposed virtual in-game morality ideals. I've only gone non-lethal for the selfish results ;) (Though self-imposed restrictions in the name of challenge I'm game, depending on the kind of restriction, i.e not using something that was ridiculously overpowered such as Typhoon).

I don't really project myself onto JC or AJ, I just try to maximize my idea of fun. If this involves randomly stabbing a bum on the way to the limb clinic then so be it, my battery recharges & there is often no consequence. Options are always available this way without caring about a voice, model, texture and code that gets respawned when I select new game.
Blame the devs for writing semi-uninteresting NPC's, I may have shown mercy otherwise :lol:



You know what would be interesting? There are like 15-20 regulars on this forum, right? What if EM were to base some minor characters in DX4 on us. We're interesting, right? ...Right? :lol:

They'd need my muscular, attractive image and superior presence to do my character any justice, unfortunately.

OR we could just infiltrate EM's ranks, overthrow them and make our own DX game. I'm coming for your job, JFD!
Unfortunately it would be many years before I get there legitimately and the position wouldn't exist anymore.
**** didn't think that through.

FrankCSIS
21st May 2013, 03:16
Well, I've successfully riled some folk up. :D Though, that was not my intention.

Neither was it my intention to decry the mentality of police. I was merely regurgitating what I had heard, so I have no first-hand knowledge or easy access to said studies. But it makes sense to me. Both sides of the war on crime operate in a realm of violence or potential violence, so it would indeed require a certain type of person to be drawn into it. And to be a good cop you must be absolutely willing to fire without a second's hesitation. That is not a pacifist, no matter how you examine it.

I don't say cops and criminals are psychologically identical in every way. Far from it, actually. But they must surely share a number of prime traits.

There's no reason to be indignant of that, whether it's true or not. As Dumbledore would say, "It's not our abilities that tell us who we are. It is our choices." To become an officer of the law you must make a vastly different choice than those who become crooks. And therefore you are indelibly separate.

I have my fair share of dealings with both classes through my work. I'd say the main common trait is a proficiency to step out of "normalcy" and civilization, and often, but not always, have a peak at what goes on behind the curtain. It's not much more than a peak, however, because none of those two classes are at, or will ever reach, "policy levels".

The motivations, as you say, are mostly very much different. At least I would guess as much.

This proficiency is also true of a lot of other professions, however, and, indeed, many habits or "hobbies" some would regard as, if anything, a little odd. A lot of people, in the end, could fit in this generalization. At least, a lot of people in terms of actual numbers. The percentage is still probably rather low.

CyberP
21st May 2013, 04:06
I have my fair share of dealings with both classes through my work.
Are you a Psychologist per chance? Damn, the last person I wanted to offend was you, Frank!

...or maybe you are just temporarily taking up the role of a psychologist. Easy isn't it? :D (other than the dealing with crazy people on a regular basis part, but many professions require this awful, awful task).

FrankCSIS
21st May 2013, 04:15
Haha, no, not at all. I have the limited necessary criminology knowledge, and I do enjoy catching up on neurosciences when I have a chance, but I will certainly not claim to be as read as a psychologist on the subject.

It's easy to step into the shoes of a guest psychologist, anyway! Every time I see the director of the order of psychologists giving their opinion on a given subject on CBC, I'm thinking I should try to pass as one and collect the paycheck for such inane and shallow spin on the actuality.

What I said above comes from my own simplistic attempt at sociology. That was my minor, which I found both very interesting, and completely useless. It gives a good insight on the past and the present, and is profoundly inadequate to predict the future. It is, also, unrelated to my work. Well, as unrelated as it can be, considering sociology touches every possible job in the world, one way or another.

Spyhopping
21st May 2013, 09:52
I don't really project myself onto JC or AJ, I just try to maximize my idea of fun. If this involves randomly stabbing a bum on the way to the limb clinic then so be it, my battery recharges & there is often no consequence. Options are always available this way without caring about a voice, model, texture and code that gets respawned when I select new game.
Blame the devs for writing semi-uninteresting NPC's, I may have shown mercy otherwise :lol:


Aghh I'd feel guilty! On the occasions I'm coming toward the end of my short attention span and gunning everyone down on the street before I turn off the game, I never save it. I think I get too attached to the role play aspect in HR, to the extent that the indiscriminate kill of that bum becomes part of the storyline :nut:.



What I said above comes from my own simplistic attempt at sociology. That was my minor, which I found both very interesting, and completely useless.

Precisely my problem with the majority of psychology research out there. Interesting and completely bloody useless in the world outside academia.

CyberP
21st May 2013, 13:52
Aghh I'd feel guilty! On the occasions I'm coming toward the end of my short attention span and gunning everyone down on the street before I turn off the game, I never save it. I think I get too attached to the role play aspect in HR, to the extent that the indiscriminate kill of that bum becomes part of the storyline :nut:.


Well, here is why I do not care about HR's NPCs (everyone except the main characters):

-Quality of the writing in general (above average for vid games but nothing special)

-Lack of character development (A good example of character dev. for a minor NPC in DX1 is Joe Greene. He appears multiple times and it's rather hard NOT to kill him, due to his great, pushy character). There are a couple developed characters in HR besides the main, obvious ones, but they are very, very rare.

-Lack of consequences: Minor NPC x doesn't appear later in the game, or if he or she does he or she is not stand-out among the other NPCs. Other NPCs do not react to killing NPC x besides the general distress and panic, no reactions such as refusing to give you something, let you pass, changing whole attitude towards you, or other ways to push consequence on the player, make the player feel guilty by having another NPC crying by his white chalk outline later on for example.

-A lack of total dialogue output from random NPCs in general. They have roughly 1-3 lines each.

The NPCs (not main characters) in HR are not worthy of weighing in on my gaming experience. They are dolls, faceless mannequins.
There are a couple of NPCs that do do the majority of the above things, but it's a very rare occurrence. Zeke appears later in the game, Woman held hostage by Zeke is valued by her husband and he reacts if she dies. They also appear later in the game (though Detroit 2nd visit they don't say much iirc).

Disappointing. But expecting EM to rival the complexity & quality of DX was foolish.