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Razaiim
8th Jun 2014, 14:15
So after the events of blood omen 2 (which are the repercussions of Defiance if I understand it correctly), we have a minor change in the progression from Blood Omen era to Soul Reaver Era. Kain is no longer the sole vampire of Nosgoth. Vorador and his Cabal are still alive. What do you guys think happened to these vampires?

Lord_Aevum
8th Jun 2014, 14:46
I think the following (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2139#p2139):


We always felt Vorador was NOT alive at the time of SR. We didn't spell it out but the underlying architecture of their.. differing opinions, led me to want to push it in that direction. I know Amy and I didn't really want to tackle it until we had to. (lol sort of how we felt about BO2 non-continuity issues in general)

Razaiim
8th Jun 2014, 15:03
It was understood that he was not alive. I was looking for what people thought about how he and his clan were wiped out. I personally like to think kain himself did the deed after he learned how to raise his own, knowing the Cabal would never submit to his rule.

Lord_Aevum
8th Jun 2014, 16:06
OK, just in case.

My own preference is the opposite: I would rather have the Cabal and Vorador destroyed/eliminated/removed by some force other than Kain himself. There's a few reasons behind this, but it comes down to what I see as a total cheapening or misinterpretation of those characters if they fight and kill one another for yuks. I just don't personally see that there's any nuance or depth in it.

Thinking back to their paternal, mentor/student relationship in the first game, and the poignancy and impact of Vorador's execution, with Elder Kain going on to wear the signet ring in reverential tribute, there's no way in my mind that Kain would bring himself to slaughter his father figure, or vice versa. I'm not concerned about paradox changes or the like – their mutual understanding in that story is still sacred to me. I'd much sooner ignore or brush away their silly tussle at the end of BO2 as empty posturing than throw one of the major narrative threads of BO1 under the bus in its wake.

Even looking at BO2 in a vacuum, it would be a non sequitur. Kain won't tolerate traitors, etc, for sure. But after Umah predicted Kain would hunt down and kill the Cabal, the story endeavoured to make clear how considerable an error in judgement this was, that he'd never resort to such measures without good reason. "How would my rule differ from that of the Sarafan Lord? If you had lived Umah, you would have learned the difference." Notice how in the ending he declares how eager he is to finish off the Sarafan, but takes great care not to boast about slaughtering the Cabal en masse unless they bend to his will.

History abhors a paradox, so the Cabal shouldn't live on to interfere with the empire era and start interacting with the Lieutenants, which would muck up chunks of the series' plot in all kinds of ways. But while I'm sure Umah's murder would have some kind of repercussion, for it to leverage the idea of Kain slaying the rest of those vampires feels wrong to me. He'd simply be contradicting his younger self from BO1 and proving Umah's suspicions right in the process.

Khalith
8th Jun 2014, 16:25
My own preference is the opposite: I would rather have the Cabal and Vorador destroyed/eliminated/removed by some force other than Kain himself. There's a few reasons behind this, but it comes down to what I see as a total cheapening or misinterpretation of those characters if they fight and kill one another for yuks. I just don't personally see that there's any nuance or depth in it.

Thinking back to their paternal, mentor/student relationship in the first game, and the poignancy and impact of Vorador's execution, with Elder Kain going on to wear the signet ring in reverential tribute, there's no way in my mind that Kain would bring himself to slaughter his father figure, or vice versa. I'm not concerned about paradox changes or the like – their mutual understanding in that story is still sacred to me. I'd much sooner ignore or brush away their silly tussle at the end of BO2 as empty posturing than throw one of the major narrative threads of BO1 under the bus in its wake.

I look at in pretty much the same way. I don't know what happened to all of vorador's vampires though, maybe they just all went on vacation and decided to never come back?

Vampmaster
8th Jun 2014, 18:32
OK, just in case.

My own preference is the opposite: I would rather have the Cabal and Vorador destroyed/eliminated/removed by some force other than Kain himself. There's a few reasons behind this, but it comes down to what I see as a total cheapening or misinterpretation of those characters if they fight and kill one another for yuks. I just don't personally see that there's any nuance or depth in it.

Thinking back to their paternal, mentor/student relationship in the first game, and the poignancy and impact of Vorador's execution, with Elder Kain going on to wear the signet ring in reverential tribute, there's no way in my mind that Kain would bring himself to slaughter his father figure, or vice versa. I'm not concerned about paradox changes or the like – their mutual understanding in that story is still sacred to me. I'd much sooner ignore or brush away their silly tussle at the end of BO2 as empty posturing than throw one of the major narrative threads of BO1 under the bus in its wake.

Even looking at BO2 in a vacuum, it would be a non sequitur. Kain won't tolerate traitors, etc, for sure. But after Umah predicted Kain would hunt down and kill the Cabal, the story endeavoured to make clear how considerable an error in judgement this was, that he'd never resort to such measures without good reason. "How would my rule differ from that of the Sarafan Lord? If you had lived Umah, you would have learned the difference." Notice how in the ending he declares how eager he is to finish off the Sarafan, but takes great care not to boast about slaughtering the Cabal en masse unless they bend to his will.

History abhors a paradox, so the Cabal shouldn't live on to interfere with the empire era and start interacting with the Lieutenants, which would muck up chunks of the series' plot in all kinds of ways. But while I'm sure Umah's murder would have some kind of repercussion, for it to leverage the idea of Kain slaying the rest of those vampires feels wrong to me. He'd simply be contradicting his younger self from BO1 and proving Umah's suspicions right in the process.

I like to think Vorador was revived and killed in all timelines after the first. History only allows the smallest changes and it would seem strange for Kain to wait so long before creating his empire that Raziel's memories would be unaltered at the end of SR2. It seems logical that Kain would have made an attempt to build an army from Vorador's vampires.

The_Hylden
8th Jun 2014, 19:27
While I understand Daniel and their reasoning for wanting either Raziel, or elder Kain, to be the one to help resurrect Vorador, and with Umah there also ... I don't agree really with it. From the standpoint of just having either fetch the head from the statue, but her knowing what to do to make the resurrection happen, none of that really makes much sense. Vorador told her what to do in case of his own head being chopped off? Vorador, or any of those vampires, knowing of how to do a resurrection like that doesn't quite jive for me. I can more understand the reasoning for knowing that Janos can be raised by recovering his heart, given that the heart is reported to still beat and that Janos' body is not decaying. Even without knowledge of how it would work, if I was Vorador I'd expect finding it and putting it back in his chest, it would probably work.

However, a head severed from a body is as final an act as you can get. This also begs the question, if they knew of this method, why did they leave their fellow vampires' heads and bodies on pikes? It starts to get a bit sketchy when only with some vampires we just know we can plot their parts back together and poof, resurrection, but the others, well they just aren't important enough, even though we know of the pain their loss has caused Vorador, specifically.

What makes more sense to me, and they very much left this door wide open in Defiance, is if Janos is the one to do it. Janos leaves Raziel in the Citadel to activate the Spirit Forge. However, there's no reason for Janos to have teleported away, if he's just going to be there again in a few moments when Raziel returns. Why would he have left and where did he go?

Raziel told him that Vorador was also dead, that the vampries were basically all extinct, meaning Vorador's entire line was also murdered. If I was Janos, I'd check that out just to pay my respects, or even just to see it for myself to know it's real. Like Kain, he should have been able to smell vampire blood from the killing fields of Moebius' hunters, and more likely, Janos should be able to sense Vorador's location, like he is shown to be able to in BO2. He would be the likeliest candidate to also understand how, and more importantly, if such a resurrection would be possible. Finding Vorador's head and body there before they're recovered by humans and Vorador's head winds up on Moebius' statue also feels like the most logical time for it to happen. Where is elder Kain in all of that time before he seeks out the statue? I am sure that took months, maybe a year, to erect that in the Stronghold.

I'd have Janos also know that this would be risky to achieve, have it take more blood and energy from himself to do it (which maybe you tie in to this act inadvertently making him less able to fight off the Hylden Lord's possession), and he had to work fast because of events in the works at the Pillars. So, this is also why he wouldn't be around to see Vorador wake up. As long as he saw the process of it working, his neck mending, color returning to his face, etc., that would be enough and perhaps events pressed his hand. He would sense Raziel had activated the forge, and that things at the Pillars were about to go dire, so he left to meet Raziel again. The most important thing to him seemed to be to relay to Raziel to seek out the Scion, so he had to deliver that message.


As for Vorador, I don't believe he was raised on the previous timelines. None of the people who could be attributable to his raising were alive. Elder Kain is dead; Raziel is in the sword; Janos is long dead. Umah, well, doubtful she should be able to do it alone. Plus, while the timelines admits the smallest alterations, BO2's events wound up being rather small, since the timeline evens out the same by SR1's era, with no lasting effects. Having a few less vampires, a few less Hylden, etc., is about the same as a swap out of one army for another, with vampires made extinct after the WtJ paradox.

Vorador and Kain would be at odds. That doesn't mean they still are so off of the same flawed character traits added from BO2. The events happened. Vorador should still act against Kain for reasons that he's obviously unstable; probably Vorador would reason that he suffers from the corruption that brought down the Circle, drove Nupraptor mad, etc. By this, and by Kain's ambition, Vorador would have to take action to protect his Cabal (he's lost one vampire family; he will not lose another). On Kain's side, while I don't wish to have Kain so insanely brash and rash, he'd realize that Vorador's opposition would stand in his way, and especially after raising vampires of his own, protecting his side would be prominent. In the inevitable final conflict, instead of having them wage arguments and make it more cartoon characterizations, I'd have them do the inevitable fight as two very respectful Samurai, basically, and with them both acknowledging the tragedy of how things got this far. Kain paying his respects more like the end for Magnus, than for Sebastian, for an example. Not so much in the words, but the attitude.

Vampmaster
8th Jun 2014, 19:53
I figured it would have been young Kain who resurrected Vorador because he'd want to build an army straight away rather than wait for centuries before creating Raziel. Sure, there might be other ways to do it, but I can't think of any obvious ones. Snagging a powerful vampire from the past using time travel? Carving up Janos's soul (which would have been around somewhere out there) and using that for necro vamps and only using his own later as a last resort.

The_Hylden
8th Jun 2014, 20:48
Yet, given Kain doesn't know how to raise vampires, how would he even know how to resurrect Vorador in the first place? That's the rub on that one. Unless Vorador wrote it down somewhere and Kain found it. (Ha, and poor Janos. He can't catch a break even in death :p)

Lord_Aevum
8th Jun 2014, 21:34
I respect there is dramatic potential in putting the them at odds, no question. However, I still have to disagree that mortal combat is an appropriate way for their story to end.

Far from the characters' squabbling, I almost see it as a clash of tones between BO1 and BO2, where only one is going to win out. Is Kain likelier to act as his former, cynical yet cerebral self, the non-megalomaniac, or will he continue down a path of unnecessary slaughter and revenge, obsessed with crushing anything in his way? Perhaps the one consequence of the plot of BO2 which I appreciate is that it leaves open the opportunity to use Vorador once more. To steal the head from his shoulders again, so soon after putting it back on, squanders such a great character. And if the only purpose in that is a kind of half-fidelity to BO2's ultra poorly-received portrayals of the two of them, I'd much rather see some damage control at work instead by steering that plot in any other direction.

It's true that Vorador has to be kept out of the Soul Reaver era. I don't know that forcing him under the guillotine again, whatever the context, is the optimal method.

Ultimately they don't have a particularly meaningful reason to fight each other, in any case. Vorador is upset that Kain killed Umah due to a misunderstanding (despite his having casually slaughtered tens of his brides in BO1, plus several other children and direct descendants in BO2). That's just not sufficient to convince me that Vorador's now about to cross swords with the man who just destroyed the lord of the Hylden and walked off wielding the Soul Reaver, nor that Kain's likewise going to run around actively executing Cabal members to finish the job. He's no better than the hypocrite Moebius and the angry mobs, if he does.

Also, Kain doesn't yet know how to raise vampires and thus still has practical use for Vorador. Perhaps, once he learns how to sire fledglings, he decides Vorador is a useless liability to be disposed of. However, given that ring on his ear, I have to say I doubt it. Maybe Vorador endeavours to righteously fight a corrupt Guardian whom he perceives as a threat to the land, but again, one wonders why Umah was the breaking point, why he doesn't account for Janos's macro trust of Kain, if that's how it plays out. It feels too tenuous, always coming back to their petty, personal BO2 motivations which have trouble squaring up with BO1.

I hope they'd spin it as if Umah's death just caused a rift between them, putting Vorador in a principled sulk more so than a murderous rage, which compromises both parties when they refuse to align against a greater threat (Hylden, Janos?) or some such.

Sidenote: Tenaya previously (http://comments.deviantart.com/1/121382946/1096744369) articulated (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=926033&postcount=106) all this better than I can, by the way:


But although Kain had a sadistic sense of humor in Blood Omen, he didn’t kill when it wasn’t necessary to either feed, defend himself, or defend Nosgoth as a whole. (An old friend once aptly referred to him as a “medieval smartass”. :)) He wasn’t gratuitously cruel to innocents, he never treated Vorador—his only sincere ally—with disrespect, he never singled women out for mistreatment, and he never committed violence or threatened violence for the petty sake of his ego. For all his morbidly aware cynicism, he repeatedly made it clear that he believed “life is precious” and that he “detested the sight of scars left upon the world” by power-hungry forces—enough to try and do something about it when no one else was. He was always brutally honest and had no respect for hypocrisy.


My opinion is that story elements should only be taken from BO2 if those elements will enhance the story of a future game, not simply to cover for a game that already went down poorly. For example, I wouldn’t mind seeing the long awaited explanation for why Vorador is alive in BO2, *if* that explanation allows this great character to ‘live on’ and contribute to the plot of a future game, not merely to immediately kill him off again once BO2 is appeased, thereby only cheapening his profound death scene at the end of Blood Omen.

Vampmaster
8th Jun 2014, 22:56
Yet, given Kain doesn't know how to raise vampires, how would he even know how to resurrect Vorador in the first place? That's the rub on that one. Unless Vorador wrote it down somewhere and Kain found it. (Ha, and poor Janos. He can't catch a break even in death :p)

Well, he'd have to figure it out eventually in order to raise the Lieutenants. It's probably something we'll never get to find out due to that being a dead timeline.

@Lord_Aevum, I totally agree with Tenaya's description of Kain and who ever it was that called him a "medieval smartass".

MasterZtark
9th Jun 2014, 00:54
I really have no clue what happened to Vorador and his army after BO2, it's all just speculation at this point to me. I have heard some very interesting ideas in the past, and even in this post now, but if the series is truly over I suppose I do like that it is open-ended and we can come up with our own theories about everything. It is fun. :)


So after the events of blood omen 2 (which are the repercussions of Defiance if I understand it correctly), we have a minor change in the progression from Blood Omen era to Soul Reaver Era. Kain is no longer the sole vampire of Nosgoth. Vorador and his Cabal are still alive. What do you guys think happened to these vampires?
If I remember correctly, the events of SR2 (specifically the ones at the very end of the game) are what create the BO2 events. I believe it's even said in the game that you can see the new memories (BO2 ones) rushing into Kains head, and thus he has a good idea of some things that may happen in the future (Defiance).


Well, he'd have to figure it out eventually in order to raise the Lieutenants. It's probably something we'll never get to find out due to that being a dead timeline.

@Lord_Aevum, I totally agree with Tenaya's description of Kain and who ever it was that called him a "medieval smartass".
I agree we'll probably never figure out how he raised the dead Lieutenants, but AFAIK raising the dead has really never been done before to create Vampires (outside of Kain's unique creation by Mortanius at the beginning of BO1). I could be totally wrong here though. I thought Kain had no idea how to create Vampires (or just simply couldn't, perhaps because of the unique way he was created by Mortanius) so he had Vorador do it in BO2, but Kain used a different method to create his Lieutenants. I always found it weird that all the Lieutenants had a large army of their offspring, but Kain only had 6? Really just 6, they were simply raised from the dead (Somehow) and each given a portion of his Dark Gifts? Is that really how almost all Vampires are created, to find a corpse and "somehow" breathe life back into it and give it some of your Dark Gifts? Is that how all the Lieutenants made their army? I always took it as a very rare and special process that Kain used, while Vorador and perhaps the Lieutenants used the same standard method of creating Vampires that everyone else does (perhaps taught to Vorador by the elder vampires when Janos Audron changed Vorador into one, which could be something as simple/silly as the old school movie way of simply biting a human).

Vampmaster
9th Jun 2014, 06:55
That's not what I meant. I was referring to the 2nd timeline version of Kain's first few centuries which have been rewritten by the paradox at the end of BO2. The part where he created the Lieutenants IMO is actually the best point to introduce Kain to new players because Raziel would be learning about him for the first time as well.

ReaverofCupcakes
10th Jun 2014, 10:44
Another possibility is that Kain simply banished Vorador and his Cabal from Nosgoth proper. BO2 revealed that there were places outside of the more well known regions of the world, namely the Hylden City. It honestly would be the perfect place to transport and then just leave them there. There's already a semblance of civilization on the island chain, so they would have shelter. The Hylden Gate would have already been destroyed and the Hylden all dead, so there wouldn't be a threat to them on that end. And there seemed to be a decent-sized population of humans in the City, so they wouldn't starve. Not to mention that very few vampires outside of Kain, Vorador, and his Cabal, even knew about the City's existence. It would be a good way for Kain to not only avoid having to kill his old mentor, but to keep him out of the way of being a subversive element in his empire.

The_Hylden
10th Jun 2014, 14:52
Indeed it's a clash in tone. They made Kain about 95% about nothing other than getting revenge against the Hylden Lord, which ultimately doesn't make much sense. The reason being, Kain's suffered worse and has not acted this way. Well, we didn't see a drawn out quest for his revenge against the assassins that killed him, but I don't think Kain would be hell bent to slaughter and destroy all in his way and think almost nothing of just killing them for the sake of killing them. Though, he does announce that the town that supported them would suffer and, as the player, you're encouraged to slaughter each of them, too.

The point is, he suffered that, and remembers playing "the pawn once before," in the Circle using him. Well, both are far worse than just suffering a defeat by the Hylden Lord. I mean, the HL didn't kill him; he's alive. Kain and his army of vampires were the ones that actually attacked first, judging by the cinematic, so you expect to either win, or lose. It's the way battle goes. You'd think he'd understand that building his armies again, as a proper leader, and tactically strategizing how to fight the HL again would be the way to go. However, all he wants is to kill the HL, no matter logic, reason, anything, and any and all in his way will be obliterated. He hates taking help from, or even taking time to talk to anyone. That all makes little sense. A defeat is not a betrayal (though, he'll come to find that he was, in fact, betrayed, which begs the question why the vampires who did so weren't weighed more on his revenge list than the HL); it's not a group of "sneering" assassins, paid for by someone else, taking his life from out of the blue. Kain fought the HL in battle and lost. He almost acts as if this made him finally snap, like this is the last straw, and it's very out of place.

The other, minor 3% (or probably less) is how Kain stops, now and then, to look about his future "subjects" and noting that they will know his just hand again. His people will know him again for their ruler. The cattle he deemed humanity to be at the end of BO1? He's standing there gloating about how just and fair he'll be and calling them his people? Makes you scratch your head, really. I guess he really is insane :p And, of course, we have the 2% longing desire, or whatever you wish to call it, for Umah building. None of it makes sense, given one second he's ready to kill her right after getting information from her about the HL, before he "saves" her from her imprisonment. He even shows the camera how angry he is that she won't tell him the info first, that he can't just get the information and end her then and there. It's ridiculous that right afterward, he's concerned about her being hurt.

If you wind up stopping to point out all of the flaws in BO2, it starts to get grating.



Ultimately they don't have a particularly meaningful reason to fight each other, in any case. Vorador is upset that Kain killed Umah due to a misunderstanding (despite his having casually slaughtered tens of his brides in BO1, plus several other children and direct descendants in BO2). That's just not sufficient to convince me that Vorador's now about to cross swords with the man who just destroyed the lord of the Hylden and walked off wielding the Soul Reaver, nor that Kain's likewise going to run around actively executing Cabal members to finish the job. He's no better than the hypocrite Moebius and the angry mobs, if he does.

I agree there needs to be more to it, were it to happen. That was just a starting point. As you note, something they are at fundamental odds over otherwise should be also introduced. This needs to be a series of events that lead us to the end, not just any one thing. Janos' imprisonment, squabbling over whether to open the gate, or not -- this would be part of it, I'd imagine. We have to note that Kain and Vorador, prior to the events of BO2's ingame stuff, are already at odds, so there is a history in the 200 years since BO1 that has started them already along the path to the inevitable. I think more elaboration on this part would help justify things, too.



Also, Kain doesn't yet know how to raise vampires and thus still has practical use for Vorador. Perhaps, once he learns how to sire fledglings, he decides Vorador is a useless liability to be disposed of. However, given that ring on his ear, I have to say I doubt it. Maybe Vorador endeavours to righteously fight a corrupt Guardian whom he perceives as a threat to the land, but again, one wonders why Umah was the breaking point, why he doesn't account for Janos's macro trust of Kain, if that's how it plays out. It feels too tenuous, always coming back to their petty, personal BO2 motivations which have trouble squaring up with BO1.

I hope they'd spin it as if Umah's death just caused a rift between them, putting Vorador in a principled sulk more so than a murderous rage, which compromises both parties when they refuse to align against a greater threat (Hylden, Janos?) or some such.

Indeed, but as I note to both you and Vampmaster on the need for Vorador to be living for Kain to learn how to raise vampires, Kain's method is not the same. Indeed, I wouldn't even attribute it to Vorador at all. I think Kain had to find the method elsewhere, and since it is a form of Necromancy, and since Kain's maker was, indeed, not even a vampire, it makes more sense to me that he would find the answer to the method he used in the writings of Mortanius, if he's going to uncover it from anyone. Mortanius doesn't use this method to make Kain a vampire. However, what if it was like this:

Kain doesn't know how to raise vampires, and especially on the timeline when Vorador wasn't raised, he has no vampire to learn from. He seeks out just how Mortanius did this to him, how did a Guardian achieve this? Was he a vampire? A human? If so, then how? He finds not the method of how he was raised (given that would spoil everything of the Heart of Darkness, etc.), but he finds instead a spell to raise the dead, as controllable undead soldiers. Kain decides that's close enough, and uses it. However, because it involves raising the dead by way of breathing a portion of your soul into their body, and Kain's soul in vampiric, they turn by way of a happy accident Kain wasn't expecting. All that he wanted were forces he could control to take over the land. Instead, he got the Lieutenants.


I, of course, agree with most of what Tenaya writes there. One exception, or perhaps add-on I have is that, while Kain didn't disrespect Vorador to his face, he did do so in his mind (via the voice over).


I pondered this as the decadent old fool prattled on about his past; a boorish account of how he defeated Malek of the Sarafan and took his vengeance upon the Circle of Nine for supporting the Sarafan’s holy war to exterminate us . . .

So, it's hard to tell how much of a "mentor" or "father figure" Kain viewed Vorador. He acts like a brat to pops in his mind, of nothing else. He has no line with Vorador here at all and only nods when directed by Vorador that they, the vampires, need to stay out of the affairs of men. I will note that even in the claymation simplicity of the 3D model, you can still tell that Kain's nod is about as sincere as one of Mobius' friendly smiles to Raziel :p Kain uses Vorador's ring to summon him for help later, but otherwise discards his warnings and teachings. By the end, he does lament that Vorador is right in one thing, that they are "Gods, dark Gods, and it is our duty to thin the heard [of humanity]."


So, anyway, I can see the seeds for them being already at odds here. Kain's respect only goes so far for Vorador and their way of doing things drastically differs. It just wasn't portrayed so grossly on-the-nose, as it is in BO2.

Destryde
10th Jun 2014, 19:26
What I want to know is how the 1st timeline existed in the first place.

Given that the Nemesis was created by giving William the Just the Soul Reaver, which was Raziel in the Reaver, whom was raised by Kain in the 2nd timeline...

(Course I know the real-world answer, that Silicon Knights had a different vision of how time travel worked than Crystal Dynamics did, the latter of which was somewhat enamoured with the film 12 Monkeys and thus inserted their 'no big paradoxes allowed' rule.)

Lord_Aevum
10th Jun 2014, 19:43
It is not known for sure, but I think it's generally assumed that Kain refused the sacrifice and went on to create his empire in that timeline too, in more or less the same way, despite losing to William in their skirmish. As you say, the soul of Raziel is in the Reaver, ergo Raziel must somehow be revived, and must find his way through time and into the blade.

As far as we know, the main consequence of William's death was the annihilation of Vorador and the vampire race. Kain might have chosen to sacrifice himself, knowing that more of his kin were out there, but I feel it's unlikely. You could even suppose that Vorador's resurrection is part of the timeline's attempt to steer his destiny back to its original course, where he presumably survived.