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View Full Version : Please don't make the next Deus Ex game focus on some love story, focus on Conspiracy



FreedomForever
28th Feb 2013, 13:00
Deus Ex HR was good but not as good as Deus Ex, a big reason why was the story.


The story was focused on Jensen trying to find the women he loved....Basically the whole first part of the game was trying to find her while uncovering conspiracies of what/why things happened so it really revolved around the women.


This is quite the opposite of Deus Ex....From the get go the story is about you being an agent and it throws you to something bigger than yourself. Quickly you realize that the main focus is the conspiracies and the world, not some love interest.

Sure their is JC Denton relationship with his brother but their relationship always revolves around the story....it never got near the point of Jensen main concern of finding the women.

So please, no more "emotional" looking for somebody storyline.....it just takes away too much from the awesome conspiracy storylines we had in Deus Ex.


and Quite honestly it comes out as kind of corny when a video game tries to make an emotional plot like that....Only game that got it right was shenmue IMO.


I wanna feel like an Agent/terrorist(Since the game is called deus ex human defiance) thrown into something bigger than myself from the get go....not some dude looking for his lover.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
28th Feb 2013, 13:53
I'll vote with you in this regard, A love story is probably one of the least interesting themes for me too.

Spyhopping
28th Feb 2013, 17:10
Agreed! It would be better to have a more substantial motivation behind the whole thing. A little bit of romantic tension can add some flavour to the plot, as long as it isn't too cheesy (like the experience of the "romance" in Mass Effect).

I kind of liked the way they handled the end of the Megan/Adam thing though. The way she didn't fall into his arms as I'd been expecting for the entire game was frustrating but nicely unexpected.

Gizmostuff
28th Feb 2013, 17:17
The love story wasn't the problem in HR. It was how likable both characters were. And Megan for the most part, wasn't.

Spyhopping
28th Feb 2013, 17:44
Yeah, Adam's likeability plummeted with how slow witted and clumsy he was in cutscenes.

JCpies
28th Feb 2013, 19:50
Yeah, Adam's likeability plummeted with how slow witted and clumsy he was in cutscenes.

Men never fail to underestimate women.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
1st Mar 2013, 08:06
Yeah, Adam's likeability plummeted with how slow witted and clumsy he was in cutscenes.

Haha, this is true. :D

Jerion
1st Mar 2013, 08:34
Yeah, Adam's likeability plummeted with how slow witted and clumsy he was in cutscenes.

His Badass rank dropped...something like ten levels in some of the cutscenes. Note that it actually went up a level or two in a couple places as well.

I've been reading TV Tropes too much.

xaduha2
1st Mar 2013, 08:45
Yeah, Adam's likeability plummeted with how slow witted and clumsy he was in cutscenes.

Yeah, RIP.

avenging_teabag
1st Mar 2013, 12:07
Honestly, I'd rather they didn't focus on conspiracies neither, just straight up corporate espionage. Or did it a lot more subtle than in HR, because there, the Illuminati stuff felt really forced in with a hammer, like "It's a Deus Ex game, MUST HAVE CONSPIRACIES!" The more subtle approach like in the Missing Link, would be most welcome.

(I <3 The Missing Link)

Anyway, I agree with the original sentiment - no romance in the next game! (if there is a next game, obviously).

Jerion
1st Mar 2013, 12:24
Honestly, I'd rather they didn't focus on conspiracies neither, just straight up corporate espionage. Or did it a lot more subtle than in HR, because there, the Illuminati stuff felt really forced in with a hammer, like "It's a Deus Ex game, MUST HAVE CONSPIRACIES!" The more subtle approach like in the Missing Link, would be most welcome.

(I <3 The Missing Link)

Anyway, I agree with the original sentiment - no romance in the next game! (if there is a next game, obviously).

Missing Link really hit all the right notes in a great package. When they really set out to write that kind of story, they nail it. I think (personally) that in DX:HR, they tried to go in a direction that left them a bit lacking on the actual conspiracy side of things; as a result, the world building was tremendous but the actual plot progression suffered somewhat.

EricaLeeV
1st Mar 2013, 15:20
I agree so much.

Romance is not handled well in video games much of the time and I ABHOR the 'save the girlfriend' line of storytelling. Not only that but I felt that the game was building up to a climax that just never happened (or was a let-down).


Better storytelling in general would be really appreciated.


What WAS with Adam in the cutscenes? Cringe-worthy stuff sometimes.

Jerion
1st Mar 2013, 18:28
I agree so much.

Romance is not handled well in video games much of the time and I ABHOR the 'save the girlfriend' line of storytelling. Not only that but I felt that the game was building up to a climax that just never happened (or was a let-down).


Better storytelling in general would be really appreciated.


What WAS with Adam in the cutscenes? Cringe-worthy stuff sometimes.

Like many moments of tension-filled romantic build-up, when it finally happened it seemed to be such a wonderful thing, but was suddenly over much too quickly.

sadmachine
3rd Mar 2013, 22:21
I found the plot line compelling, myself, though it was hardly what I'd call a love story. I liked that Adam had a personal motivation, but I'm the sort who tends to find interpersonal drama (and DXHR's was more nuanced than that of most games) more engaging than conspiracies and the like.

But still, a good story's a good story. If the next game takes a different approach I'm sure I'll enjoy it as long as it's as well told a tale as DXHR's.

FrankCSIS
4th Mar 2013, 02:49
Everything in fiction is an excuse to build on interpersonal dramas, or at least relationships. I'm all for it in games. Love stories, or just chasing tails, are above most writer's pay grade, however. There is a frontier of a difference between a good and a bad love story, and there really is nothing in between.

Decent family or friendship stories are more accessible, and are often more interesting. There are rarely any terrible consequences if you make a botch of it, too. Look at Uncharted, for instance. They try very hard to pull off the surrogate father storyline with Drake and Sully. It's cheap, feels forced, and is written by overgrown children, but it doesn't get in the way. The whole background story they explored in the third game was even a cute attempt at pulling it off, but it goes to show how the writers don't understand storytelling in games. The relationship needs to be developed through the playable parts, and not simply forced down through generic, non-engaging cutscenes. (See also: The godawful campfire conversations from Dragon Age).

I really am a broken record, and an old annoying one at that, but it's worth it to play a game of compare and constrast, using Manny and Glottis from Grim Fandango. A great friendship story that develops both actively and passively throughout the game. What starts as a character you meet to solve a puzzle ends in bittersweet tears when you leave him behind, and everything in between is filled with laughter and adventures. An annoying and crazy mechanic who turns out to be a true companion. Now compare to Sully, who basically follows you around and sometimes shoots at people. The flashback cutscenes just don't cut it.

3rdmillhouse
4th Mar 2013, 18:08
Deus Ex HR was good but not as good as Deus Ex, a big reason why was the story.


The story was focused on Jensen trying to find the women he loved....Basically the whole first part of the game was trying to find her while uncovering conspiracies of what/why things happened so it really revolved around the women.


This is quite the opposite of Deus Ex....From the get go the story is about you being an agent and it throws you to something bigger than yourself. Quickly you realize that the main focus is the conspiracies and the world, not some love interest.

Sure their is JC Denton relationship with his brother but their relationship always revolves around the story....it never got near the point of Jensen main concern of finding the women.

So please, no more "emotional" looking for somebody storyline.....it just takes away too much from the awesome conspiracy storylines we had in Deus Ex.


and Quite honestly it comes out as kind of corny when a video game tries to make an emotional plot like that....Only game that got it right was shenmue IMO.


I wanna feel like an Agent/terrorist(Since the game is called deus ex human defiance) thrown into something bigger than myself from the get go....not some dude looking for his lover.

Are you seriously telling us that this game wasn't focused on the massive conspiracy orchestrated by the Illuminati, with the aid of Darrow Industries, Picus Communications and Tai Yong Medical to enforce the regulation and control of augmentation technologies? I just..... I'm gonna lay down and count to 1000 to see if I can calm down...... :mad2:

Pharnham
25th Mar 2013, 18:28
The story was focused on Jensen trying to find the women he loved

Well, I wouldn't say it focused on that, but I see your point and agree in general terms though I wouldn't cite Deus Ex:HR as a great offender. They spared us the girls in bikini armor and skintight spandex, and the virtual porn sequence ... and any female Adams. All good all the way around. I have no complaints on this subject with DE:HR.

A vast improvement over the tawdry Mass Effect/Dragons Age take on romance.

Jerion
25th Mar 2013, 19:51
Are you seriously telling us that this game wasn't focused on the massive conspiracy orchestrated by the Illuminati, with the aid of Darrow Industries, Picus Communications and Tai Yong Medical to enforce the regulation and control of augmentation technologies? I just..... I'm gonna lay down and count to 1000 to see if I can calm down...... :mad2:

The game was focused on that, but Adam wasn't. They even called this out in TML.

CyberP
25th Mar 2013, 23:36
A vast improvement over the tawdry Mass Effect/Dragons Age take on romance.

Indeed.

Ilves
26th Mar 2013, 17:14
I dream of the day when gaming claims its stake as a literary medium. In that regard DX had a lot more on offer than HR.

Incidentally I recently quit Dragon Age 5 hours in because I just couldn't handle the stupid.

-Neon-
26th Mar 2013, 22:38
I personally feel that Adam's determination to find Megan's killers was a great plot device. I think it's mentioned somewhere that Adam and Megan were actually growing apart because of Megan's discovery and the fact that she became more heavily invested in her work. At the start of Deus Ex: Human Revolution, there seems to be a more "good friends" vibe than "romantic" one. While Adam would have probably attempted to find the mercs regardless of whether he and Megan had been in a relationship, it wouldn't have given the player a strong enough reason to really emotionally immerse themselves.

lowenz
27th Mar 2013, 07:59
Human Revolution is about to be human vs machine (a "mech" in old Gunter's words).
Love (->love story) is the ultimate argument for Jensen to remain human, is his driving force (despite his new mech nature) and so bad *destroyed* in the end by Megan's "inhuman" (or too much human?) behaviour.

And remember Namir's words: "Men like us... we never get back the things we love".....'cause the things too (Megan) are not what they seems to be (DX topos).

So it's *really fitting* in HUMAN Revolution.

68_pie
27th Mar 2013, 12:32
I personally feel that Adam's determination to find Megan's killers was a great plot device. I think it's mentioned somewhere that Adam and Megan were actually growing apart because of Megan's discovery and the fact that she became more heavily invested in her work. At the start of Deus Ex: Human Revolution, there seems to be a more "good friends" vibe than "romantic" one. While Adam would have probably attempted to find the mercs regardless of whether he and Megan had been in a relationship, it wouldn't have given the player a strong enough reason to really emotionally immerse themselves.


Human Revolution is about to be human vs machine (a "mech" in old Gunter's words).
Love (->love story) is the ultimate argument for Jensen to remain human, is his driving force (despite his new mech nature) and so bad *destroyed* in the end by Megan's "inhuman" (or too much human?) behaviour.

And remember Namir's words: "Men like us... we never get back the things we love".....'cause the things too (Megan) are not what they seems to be (DX topos).

So it's *really fitting* in HUMAN Revolution.

Which would be fine if we (the player) had any reason to care about Megan.

-Neon-
27th Mar 2013, 17:03
Which would be fine if we (the player) had any reason to care about Megan.

I actually felt very little towards her throughout the whole game. For me, it was more about finding out who did it and why.
I think the best way to put it is that I didn't really connect with Megan (who is an interesting character), but I could empathize with Adam. His love for Megan translated into my hatred of the mercs, and gave me all the more reason to give this man closure.

Jerion
27th Mar 2013, 17:16
I actually felt very little towards her throughout the whole game. For me, it was more about finding out who did it and why.
I think the best way to put it is that I didn't really connect with Megan (who is an interesting character), but I could empathize with Adam. His love for Megan translated into my hatred of the mercs, and gave me all the more reason to give this man closure.

That sums it up for me. Megan gets so little screen time that I couldn't really connect with her. I think that's okay though. She wasn't a love interest exactly; By the time the game comes around they aren't really together but they also didn't have closure. Closure which they still didn't ultimately get even after Adam went halfway around the world and past/through a small army to find her.

HERESY
27th Mar 2013, 19:46
I cared more for that Malik chick than I did Megan. The only restart I did was when...

Malik died, but I restarted it again and kept her alive after two tries.

Ilves
27th Mar 2013, 19:55
Considering HR totes to be about grand, conflicting ideas about mankind's destiny and so on, it's sad that there wasn't a single moment of true confrontation like

the epic showdown with Mordin in ME3. I can't think of a single other game where I simply could not pull the trigger because I truly respected the beliefs of a virtual character.

singularity
2nd Apr 2013, 09:13
I can't help but feel as if so many of the problems with the plot could have been solved elegantly if only they had actually had the courage to kill Megan off in the opening scenes. We would have been able to sympathize with Adam without having ever known Megan (because our brains would have made her whatever we wanted), while the writers could have had fun filling out her (ultimately tragic) story as we slowly learn bits and pieces about her during Adam's quest for answers. Home videos on Adam's computer, stories from her landlord and mother, etc. Films have done similar things to great effect (Brick, I'm looking at you...).

The player could focus on the conspiracy, we'd forgive Adam for being so single-minded about a woman because... well... she died 6 months ago and the guy is healing in his own way. Megan would have been a more memorable, likable and immortalized character. Sometimes I think writers just get too attached to their characters... Glad they had the stones to have an ending where

Adam blows himself to hell.

Really the only saving grace to the endings as well, in my opinion.

Charles_Phipps
4th Apr 2013, 23:57
I think Deus Ex has one of the most memorable love stories in the entirety of video games. Mostly because, well, it's a subversion. Megan in their short time together is pulling away from Adam in a way that we only get context for by the time we finish the game.

By that time, Megan is still feeling guilty about it but Adam has already moved on. Really, he probably couldn't care less about the fact she used his DNA to create cyborgs. He's more concerned about the evil mercenaries and the Illuminati misusing her research, something Megan has no context for because she doesn't realize what the hell Adam is talking about.

The developers had the balls to end the tale on a tragedy rather than a hopeful note.

EricaLeeV
5th Apr 2013, 00:18
Adam seemed desperately hopeful as hell. As pointed out earlier, even in the Missing Link some key individuals point out that he is clinging too tightly to the idea of seeing her in particular again that it's really no use trying to continue working with him.

When he finds her again later he seems awfully betrayed and distraught in the cutscene. I'm pretty sure he wasn't just angry at the fact that she was possibly working for the enemy.

Charles_Phipps
5th Apr 2013, 03:01
I think that it's primarily that, it's just that the reality has collided with his fantasy.

Not only is Megan not ecstatic to see him but she's basically entirely happy to see Adam. Adam has been, essentially, building up this entire fantasy where he rescues her and everything is suddenly alright between them. Instead, however, she's either suffering deep Stockholm Syndrome or genuinely doesn't CARE that her fellow scientists were murdered to acquire her.

All the questions he's suppressing come up.

But yes, if Adam (or whoever the protagonist is) can have a romance that interesting or a resolution to the Megan/Adam plot I'd love to see it.

EricaLeeV
5th Apr 2013, 13:25
The conclusion to it all, what with Megan being the way she was towards Adam, was interesting indeed. Different from jumping into his arms and being the big reward for his long journey.


Though I think it could have been much better executed if we were made to really care for their relationship. What we got in the beginning was just not enough at all...plus what I thought of Adam fluctuated throughout the game as he had some major character dissonance happening in those cutscenes.

Shralla
5th Apr 2013, 19:18
I take his pursuit of Megan as more of a desperation to make something feel "right" or "normal" in his life, which has been thrown completely into chaos. Like he said, he never asked for this.

68_pie
5th Apr 2013, 19:52
The conclusion to it all, what with Megan being the way she was towards Adam, was interesting indeed. Different from jumping into his arms and being the big reward for his long journey.


Though I think it could have been much better executed if we were made to really care for their relationship. What we got in the beginning was just not enough at all...plus what I thought of Adam fluctuated throughout the game as he had some major character dissonance happening in those cutscenes.

I think dissonance pretty accurately describes my whole experience with DXHR.

SteelleV2
8th Apr 2013, 18:12
I had to create a new account to post this because something is messed with my original one, but anyway...

I'm surprised that they didn't take the opportunity to turn Deus Ex: Icarus Effect into the next Deus Ex game. Maybe not a fully fledged sequel(prequel?) but something akin to Assassins Creed: Brotherhood as it relates to Assassins Creed 2. Think about it. You would play through the game as Saxon, and his storyline has the right beats to make for an interesting game, including a reason for him to have newly acquired advanced augmentations that he would be unlocking with praxis points.

It would have been a logical step forward after The Missing Link too. Janus and the Juggernaut Collective have been introduced but not in any great detail, so elaborating on their story at this point would make sense. The only thing they would really need to do is find a more climactic way to wrap up the game. I don't think it would feel like there is too much overlap either, since a lot of the Icarus Effect covered aspects that were only mentioned in passing during Human Revolution.

Thoughts?

HERESY
8th Apr 2013, 21:40
I had to create a new account to post this because something is messed with my original one, but anyway...

I'm surprised that they didn't take the opportunity to turn Deus Ex: Icarus Effect into the next Deus Ex game. Maybe not a fully fledged sequel(prequel?) but something akin to Assassins Creed: Brotherhood as it relates to Assassins Creed 2. Think about it. You would play through the game as Saxon, and his storyline has the right beats to make for an interesting game, including a reason for him to have newly acquired advanced augmentations that he would be unlocking with praxis points.

It would have been a logical step forward after The Missing Link too. Janus and the Juggernaut Collective have been introduced but not in any great detail, so elaborating on their story at this point would make sense. The only thing they would really need to do is find a more climactic way to wrap up the game. I don't think it would feel like there is too much overlap either, since a lot of the Icarus Effect covered aspects that were only mentioned in passing during Human Revolution.

Thoughts?

That would be cool, but it would have to fit into their business model. Remember, this company relies on a "polymorphic" business model, so I doubt they would turn DX:IE into a game. But still, I think it would be great if they did.

Spyhopping
8th Apr 2013, 22:00
I had to create a new account to post this because something is messed with my original one, but anyway...

I'm surprised that they didn't take the opportunity to turn Deus Ex: Icarus Effect into the next Deus Ex game. Maybe not a fully fledged sequel(prequel?) but something akin to Assassins Creed: Brotherhood as it relates to Assassins Creed 2. Think about it. You would play through the game as Saxon, and his storyline has the right beats to make for an interesting game, including a reason for him to have newly acquired advanced augmentations that he would be unlocking with praxis points.

It would have been a logical step forward after The Missing Link too. Janus and the Juggernaut Collective have been introduced but not in any great detail, so elaborating on their story at this point would make sense. The only thing they would really need to do is find a more climactic way to wrap up the game. I don't think it would feel like there is too much overlap either, since a lot of the Icarus Effect covered aspects that were only mentioned in passing during Human Revolution.

Thoughts?

I found Saxon and Anna very likeable characters. It'd be great if they cropped up somewhere in possible future storylines.

SteelleV2
9th Apr 2013, 04:43
That would be cool, but it would have to fit into their business model. Remember, this company relies on a "polymorphic" business model, so I doubt they would turn DX:IE into a game. But still, I think it would be great if they did.

Well at this point it seems unlikely. The next Deus Ex game we see will be a major release, and I would be surprised if they didn't take it a couple years past Human Revolution. I think people would be upset if the game they wait 5 years for ends up having some major differences, but still the same themes and villains. I could be wrong.

Honestly I just want two things. Some missions that take place in Australia, and the chance to fight my way off of the tyrants ship as Saxon.

Jerion
9th Apr 2013, 04:58
I found Saxon and Anna very likeable characters. It'd be great if they cropped up somewhere in possible future storylines.

I'd like Anna to be the protagonist of the next game. So much potential there!

SteelleV2
9th Apr 2013, 20:37
I'd like Anna to be the protagonist of the next game. So much potential there!

The game ends with her being brainwashed into working for UNATCO under the new identity of Anna Navarre.

Stellazira
10th Apr 2013, 17:47
I think Anna would be a very cool character too. If she ever were to appear in a game, it would be interesting to see the context.

She wants to get away from all the conspiracies and the like, so it would interesting to see what kind of situation would bring her out of hiding.

As for the Adam and Megan love story, I like it in that it made HR feel different from other games because I don't see a lot of love stories in the games I play. Usually it's getting to an objective as quickly as possible because something is going to blow up or whatever...

Am I saying the love story was done well or that it made the game unique enough to make it amazing? No. But it was nice to see something different. I wouldn't want to see a story like this again though if it was done this way.

I'm not sure if there would be a love story in the next DX game anyway... unless it's a continuation of Adam's story, I wouldn't want to make a game that does the same thing over again.

IDAFT
14th Apr 2013, 04:56
Instead of a Love story, it should have a small relationship feature. You can have option of who you want to get close to, which in turn makes little tweaks to the story, like Mass Effect or GTA. I'm guessing, alot of you guys would have chosen Malik, if this was a feature in HR?

Shralla
14th Apr 2013, 05:50
Getting very close to the end of the game and yeah, the outward focus of the game was too much on the "find Megan" angle rather than the conspiracy angle. At this point I feel kind of underwhelmed by the revelations I've had and the people I've met, because most of my time was spent looking for some girl I had no real attachment to.

68_pie
14th Apr 2013, 15:40
Instead of a Love story, it should have a small relationship feature. You can have option of who you want to get close to, which in turn makes little tweaks to the story, like Mass Effect or GTA. I'm guessing, alot of you guys would have chosen Malik, if this was a feature in HR?

Yup, what we need is another dating sim.

Shralla
14th Apr 2013, 16:38
I liked how JC just seemed too honestly busy for any kind of relationship nonsense. "not now woman, I'm saving the world."

xaduha2
14th Apr 2013, 18:31
Yup, what we need is another dating sim.
What we really need are characters worth a damn.

kiadaw
9th May 2013, 15:24
Should have an option to romance Malik. I think the love between Megan & Adam was poorly done. You saw her briefly at the beginning of game, & near the end, & that's about it.

If their love were better integrated further into the game, I may be able to relate. Say some flashback or some data-pads narrating how they will be getting married & plan to live away to some place quiet, photos of them together in his apartment or something.

bat_brain
11th May 2013, 22:39
you're right. its deus ex, not sex & the city.

they supposedly learned their lesson of "what not to do" with invisible war. hopefully similar ideologies will apply to defiance, if that's what they do end up calling the next one.

i'm guessing the creative writer / dev. lady (in the augmented edition dvd making of) probably had a hand in the love story tangent.?

no offense.

68_pie
11th May 2013, 22:50
you're right. its deus ex, not sex & the city.

they supposedly learned their lesson of "what not to do" with invisible war. hopefully similar ideologies will apply to defiance, if that's what they do end up calling the next one.

i'm guessing the creative writer / dev. lady (in the augmented edition dvd making of) probably had a hand in the love story tangent.?

no offense.

Saying "no offense" doesn't make you sound like less of an idiot.

CodenameD
17th Jun 2013, 11:05
Agree about this whole point on "more conspiracy focus, less roamance focus" thing. This is where Deus Ex went right so much that JC was and still remains the ultimate Deus Ex badass. Even Invisible War, a type of game where a branching romance plot would not seem unnatural much did not take this route.

As much as I'd wanted to see Adam as a badass mech, certain FMV cinematics totally ruined any such possibility. He's out there looking for megan's murderers and Zhao manages to captivate a mech with a pheromone manipulation augs?

The original did not use FMVs and players pretty much had full control over their actions. First time I visited Maggie, I'd say I trusted her as a player. JC denton did not make the decision to take her word for it. I did. If I wanted I could kill her before I even got in her apartment. Now THAT is choice my fellow friends.

hybridex
26th Jun 2013, 19:25
Oh, come on now.. even a bad ass need some loving sometime..