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ColBashar
31st Aug 2012, 18:55
Hi folks. I feel a bit uncomfortable posting but Jerion told me it was okay so throw things at him if I'm out of line. Anyway, some weeks back there was this thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=127389) written by a member saying how Deus Ex should be more like Fallout 3. Ugh. Yeah, my reaction was likely the same as yours.

That said, I see no reason why Fallout can't be more like Deus Ex. With that thought in mind I published a mod for Fallout: New Vegas that implements mechanics derived from Deus Ex and tries to incorporate a similar design focus. That design focus is, of course, "choice and consequence." Here's a list of the DXified features:

1) XP and levelling has been redone to focus on game progression rather than kills and feats. Instead you'll earn most of your experience from exploration and quest completion. Initially exploration was going to play a smaller role; however, I had to relax this a bit to account for FNV's open world environment in contrast to Deus Ex's linear mission tree.

I'm one of those people who really liked DX1's deprecation of XP for feats because it does two important things. From the player's standpoint, it means that they will not be encouraged to "clear the map" of enemies or pick every lock or hack every computer they come across just so that they can optimize level progression. That means the player can focus more on playing the game the way that they want to rather than try to adhere to the designer's "vision" of how the game ought to be played. From a design standpoint, limiting earnable experience to a finite quantity makes balance much easier because it gives the designer a better approximation of what any given player's capabilities will be as they progress through the game, enabling them to better tailor difficulty level and challenges.

2) Non-lethal attacks have been made potent and accessible enough to allow pacifist play as a viable option. Like Deus Ex, it's now possible to progress through at least most of the game without killing thy fellow man. Moreover, I corrected an oversight on Bethesda's part and enabled the chance to loot unconscious victims. Unfortunately I wasn't able to copy DXHR in allowing the AI to revive its fallen allies so instead I set unconsciousness on a roughly 3 minute timer, which should be long enough for the player to do what he needs to do without making non-lethal attacks over powerful. The DX1 crossbow might be noisy as heck but it was essentially a one-hit one-kill weapon.

3) Speaking of the crossbow, I implemented a dart gun with similar functionality. In addition to firing tranquilizer darts, I've brought back the flare darts as well as implemented a plethora of other dart options, including poisons to disable opponents and medicines to treat your allies.

Additionally you can use stun grenades and mines to help knock out opponents as well as the blackjack (named in tribute to Thief). I tried to make the blackjack function like the stun baton in Deus Ex, in fact technically it -does- function the same in that a stealthy strike to the head will automatically knock a target unconscious. Unfortunately due to the limitations inherent to the Fallout engine, it's next to impossible to hit someone's head without breaking stealth so you're reduced to bashing them until they pass out. I'll have to find a solution to this in the future but, hey, I did try.

4) Augmentations. That's right, I said augmentations. While FNV offered a good deal of choice with it's perk system, it didn't fully follow through with Deus Ex's sense of consequence. If during CharGen you choose the Replicant trait then you will be given access to a host of "perks" that can be toggled on and off to give your character a variety of special bonuses such as extra speed, tougher armour, invisibility, etc. The use of these augmentations comes at the cost of bio-energy, which must be recharged by consuming batteries.

Moreover, the character is limited as to what augmentations they can choose so that it's impossible to acquire all of them. Based on the number and availability of augmentations alone, there are 336 different possible configurations compared to 128 in Deus Ex and 243 in Invisible War. Unfortunately, unlike those games, I don't have augmentation upgrades but with the way the system works I'm not sure that they're needed.

I also think I managed to do passive augmentations right. EM take heed! Instead of either continually draining energy reserves or not draining them at all, passive augs will only consume energy when they're actually used. For example, the health regeneration aug will only consume energy when active healing you. When at full health, it drains no energy even though the augmentation is still toggled "on". Instead it waits until you take damage to kick back into gear.

Unfortunately for the sake of balance I disabled the Replicant's ability to improve skills with leveling up, so I suppose you could call this more of an Invisible War feature rather than a Deus Ex one. I was never happy with this solution, though, and am thinking of changing it in a future update.

5) Last but not least is a greater emphasis on choice and consequence through the level up system. I couldn't copy Deus Ex but I did try to implement the intent of its system. There are now fewer skill points available to the player so that it's impossible to develop a generic character capable of anything. These limitations encourage players to develop specialist builds focusing on a few areas.

===================

So if you play Fallout: New Vegas but wish it were a little more like Deus Ex, then this may be the mod for you. You can find it by following this link (http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/mods/47036).

sonicsidewinder
1st Sep 2012, 04:09
So if you play Fallout: New Vegas but wish it were a little more like Deus Ex, then this may be the mod for you. You can find it by following this link (http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/mods/47036).

I like the sound of that.

Romeo
1st Sep 2012, 04:42
This is rad! Great job!

ColBashar
2nd Sep 2012, 01:31
Thanks. <s> If you guys give it a shot let me know what you think. The response from the Fallout crowd has been quiet but largely positive. I'd love to get some feedback from people coming in with a Deus Ex perspective, though, since you have a better understanding of where I was coming from. Plus, any criticism will help me tweak balance issues and improve the with future updates.

ColBashar
18th Sep 2013, 18:00
Hi everyone. As some of you know, I've been working on writing professionally, which has really sapped me of the energy and interest to post actively in forums. That's why I've been absent even though I know I owe a Frank a post about lawyers. Anyway, I took a break from writing and used that time to continue modding Fallout: New Vegas in my quest to make it play more like Deus Ex. This time I've focused on probably the most important component of any would-be Looking Glass style game: stealth mechanics!

So here's some bullet points on just what my mod does:

- I've introduced leaning! Well... sort of. I co-opted the chase camera view to enable the player to peek around corners using hotkeys. It isn't true-lean because you can't shoot around corners, and you're essentially invisible while "leaning" (<cough> Dishonored), but it really makes our style of stealth play more viable.

- I reduced the NPCs Field of Vision. Where in vanilla FNV NPCs could detect you in an arc of 190°, this has been brought down to a range of 80-150°, depending on your character's Sneak skill. So you can remain undetected while moving on their flank. Of course, that's almost like cheating so...

- The NPCs vision range has been dramatically improved. I also broke the connection between NPC visibility and PC Sneak skill, so just because you have a lot of points invested in Sneak doesn't make you invisible at medium range. If you can see them, then odds are that they can see you. Line of sight is key and if you want to remain stealthy, it's best you keep out of it. You can still hide in the shadows but it's less effective at close range.

- If you break stealth and are detected, NPCs will search for you for a longer duration before giving up and going back to their unalerted state. Took me a while to figure out the settings to affect this and it still requires tweaking.

- The delay between being spotted and being detected has been increased from 0.3 to 2 seconds. This gives you a small window to move between points of cover or to back track if you accidentally walk up onto a guard. This is intended to mimic the moment in Deus Ex when a guard says "I think I see someone... a guy in a coat." or the "Bring!" chime from MGS but doesn't work as effectively as I would like.

- Crouched movement speed is increased. It's still about a third slower than normal movement but it feels much more fluid than vanilla FNV.

- I also added the option to change the overall firepower of weaponry, like I did in my previous mod, so that you can make the game overall squishier. Enemies are more apt to go down in one hit if you get a good shot, and likewise, so can you. Plenty of times in testing I went from full health to zero courtesy of a .308 to the head.

To be honest, while I started out trying to make the game more like Deus Ex, I have to admit that it feels more like Human Revolution. I think that's largely a factor of how the chase camera "leaning" functions in the third person. Nevertheless, it's still in my opinion a big improvement over FNV's more proximity-based stealth mechanics.

I made a video showcasing an earlier version of the mod. It's a bit obsolete as I recorded before I increased movement speed, figured out how to lengthen the search timer, and the NPC field of vision was much smaller. I think it still offers a good demonstration of the new camera functionality and how it's now possible to ghost maps. I admit that the commentary is sub-par but I made this off the cuff, originally as a test, and just liked how the mission worked out.

a2_vVVb6Gns

You can download my Cover Based Stealth Mechanics (http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/mods/51777) mod here (http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/mods/51777) at NexusMods. It requires the New Vegas Script Extender as a dependency. Also, if you want to change the in-game settings, you'll also need the Mod Configuration Menu, which you can download here (http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/mods/42507).

FrankCSIS
18th Sep 2013, 19:18
That's why I've been absent even though I know I owe a Frank a post about lawyers.

You do? Should I go into hiding for a while? I'm a little worried now! ;)

PS: I'm finally playing (and very much enjoying) New Vegas right now. This looks like my next version of NV, when vanilla is done!

CyberP
18th Sep 2013, 19:31
hey, never saw this before! Good job! Hmm, this guy still visit the forums? He has a skill set I am interested in.

And in my opinion Deus Ex could take a few notes from Fallout (Just a few, and mainly New Vegas I am talking about here) They are both excellent series, though yes, 3 has some questionable aspects. Both series could take notes from eachother, but they are very, very similar in design anyway.
I prefer Deus Ex 1 to Fallout: NV but it's by a miniscule margin.

ColBashar
19th Sep 2013, 02:02
There's a couple of mods you might want to look at Frank. And you too, Cyber, if you haven't tried these already. The first one I would recommend is the Josh Sawyer mod and it's the answer to all the people people who say that modding takes away from the designer's vision of a game. The fact is that Josh Sawyer -is- the designer of Fallout New Vegas and yet he still felt it worthwhile to take the time to mod it after publication. Basically if look at the trajectory that the folks at Obsidian took in migrating from Fallout 3 to New Vegas, the Josh Sawyer mod goes "all the way". It offers more of a challenge and addresses some balance issues. I regard it as how New Vegas was meant to be played.

The other mod I'd suggest looking into is Tale of Two Wastelands. It's not really a mod per se so much as it's a bridge to enable the Fallout 3 data files in the New Vegas engine. In other words, with TTW there's really no reason to play Fallout 3 proper again because it combines the best of both worlds. The folks who developed it have done a remarkable job. I've been playing the latest version for twenty hours and have only encountered two, non-game breaking bug, one of which was easily fixed. It's really the cure for anybody who misses the Capitol Wasteland but doesn't want to have to cope with Bethesda's casual design choices.

As far as the latter Fallouts relate to Deus Ex, both are Action RPGs and probably the best examples of the genre, but I really regard the two as at opposite ends of the spectrum. I like each for what it offers but I can't really regard them as the same. For instance, I love budgeting for food and water in New Vegas Hardcore mode because it's a game about survival, and Hardcore mode helps simulate that. Deus Ex is about problem solving and while budgeting is certainly important, that ticking timer would be out of place in a game that expects you to stop and think your way past obstacles. I may prefer Deus Ex from a design standpoint but I've clocked more hours with New Vegas, though admittedly mods played a role in that.

Anyway, Cyber, I was actually hoping you might be able to help me out. You've had a look into Deus Ex's inner workings, could you tell me what the field of view is for the AI? I'd like to incorporate it into my Stealth mod but so far I've had to guess at values based on screenshots of Dishonored. Also the difference in speed between crouching, running, and walking while unaugmented. Also it'd be handy to know the exact delay between being spotted and the guards going into attack mode, though I'm not sure I'll be able to use it. I estimated it about three seconds though I find that keeping it that long in my mod made it too easy to sneak attack victims.

CyberP
19th Sep 2013, 03:42
Pawn
Horizontal FOV= 160 degrees
Reaction time= 2 seconds

Player
Running GroundSpeed=304.000000 (unreal units per second? Not sure but these are the values given)
Crouching GroundSpeed=100.000000
Walking GroundSpeed=100.000000 (I think. Either way crouch and walk speed is exactly the same)

In my opinion 2 seconds reaction time is too much, 1 or 1.5 is better.

Edit: Look at you whoring the third person camera. If I made a New Vegas mod (I'd love to one day) hardcore mode would disable third person and proper lean implemented.

Is there some kind of restriction preventing you from implementing proper leaning?

ColBashar
2nd Oct 2013, 23:35
Is there some kind of restriction preventing you from implementing proper leaning?

Collision detection. I worked out how I could physically implement lean but the problem was that it would be too easy for players to fall out of the world, particularly since Fallout's terrain is so uneven compared to Deus Ex. Without any kind of collision detection accessible from within scripts, true lean became a non-starter.

The 3rd person camera "lean" was the best I could approximate. To compensate I restricted the camera distance to be very close to the player. That's why I say that the end result feels more like Human Revolution. I got a number of complaints about that, though, so I had to add an option to unleash the chase camera for traditional Bethesda players.

It is possible to eliminate the chase camera but without leaning it would be difficult to play stealthily without it since my mod emphasizes line of sight detection where the vanilla mechanics were weighted more strongly toward proximity. The NPCs, by design, behave erratically and even with the footstep volume turned all the way up it's impossible to hear a guard's footfalls beyond a certain point.

The GECK SDK is in some ways extremely powerful and in other ways very limiting. For instance, there's no way to distinguish between a guard in alert mode and one in combat. I looked for days but it just isn't available. All you can determine from within a script is whether or not you're hidden. I also wanted to create a light gem ala Thief but there's no way to access the light factor from within a script, even though I can find this information from the runtime console.

I expect the Fallout 4 SDK, whenever it's released, will be a -lot- more comprehensive. The GECK is an impressive modding tool, but the Skyrim Creation Kit is a development platform by comparison. There's so much power in there that's it's scarey. It also easier to break the game.

- - -

Interesting numbers. The Fallout 3/NV running speed is 308 units, 175 units while crouched, and 78 units when walking. 44 units if you're "crouch-walking" (I disabled any benefit of doing so because I thought it was just ridiculous). Interesting, though, that the maximum speed unit, whatever that might be, is comparable to Deus Ex. I wonder if that's coincidence or if both engines drew from a similar resource.

I also didn't expect the field of view to be 160 for the NPCs. That's much larger than I anticipated but I guess I'm just accustomed to ragging so much on the myopia of the guards in DX. I've been playing my mod with a static 160 degree arc and it feels pretty good for the most part. I think the arc is a little smaller in Dishonored but guards in that game also tend pan and scan the are before them, making up for the difference.

Anyway, I'm finishing up my next version and maybe you can help me with some more data.

For one, in Deus Ex I notice that it's a lot easier to knock out an opponent if they're not alerted to my presence. Does that bonus carry to live fire or does it apply just to non-lethal arms? If so, what's the bonus for attacking while undetected?

The other thing I'm interested in is the difference between PC and NPC movement speeds. Unfortunately walking speed has to be identical between the two in Fallout 3/NV. But I'd like to get the NPC walking speed to be comparable to Deus Ex. In 3/NV there's a 4x differential between walking and running.

Also, I wanted to note to Frank, my Stealth mod can be cleanly installed and uninstalled during a game in progress. So if you get bored with vanilla stealth mechanics during your maiden playthough, you can plug mine in and try them out without having to start a new game. And if then you decide to go back to the vanilla rules you can disable the mod without any ill effects.

CyberP
3rd Oct 2013, 00:24
Collision detection.

Shame. Deus Ex has the best leaning mechanics too in my opinion because there is no accuracy penalty whilst leaning whereas strafing/crouch strafing does result in an accuracy penalty, so it provides extra tactical incentive to use lean without being OP in the slightest (Looking at Dishonored's cloak-leaning here) or being made almost redundant by strafing (I say almost because the more player freedom & control the better is my philosophy).


For one, in Deus Ex I notice that it's a lot easier to knock out an opponent if they're not alerted to my presence. Does that bonus carry to live fire or does it apply just to non-lethal arms? If so, what's the bonus for attacking while undetected?

If you are right behind an NPC and aim for the sweet spot then you gain a 12x multiplier with any weapon, baton, sniper rifle whatever.


The other thing I'm interested in is the difference between PC and NPC movement speeds. Unfortunately walking speed has to be identical between the two in Fallout 3/NV. But I'd like to get the NPC walking speed to be comparable to Deus Ex. In 3/NV there's a 4x differential between walking and running.

Speed varies from class to class obviously. NSF walking is 0.296000 & has a sprintRate of 0.250000 as an example

ColBashar
12th Oct 2013, 18:23
Two points. First, I updated my stealth mod (http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/mods/51777) to version 1.04. This adds additional options to refine the combat mechanics and stealth boy functionality.

More interestingly, though, is that somebody implemented first-person leaning by changing idle animations. I never thought of that, though largely because I've never worked with the animations. Anyway, it's a big step closer to true lean. The only thing that is lacking now is the ability to shoot from a leaning position. You can read more about it here (http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/mods/53063). I haven't tried it out myself yet.

CyberP
12th Oct 2013, 18:42
Two points. First, I updated my stealth mod (http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/mods/51777) to version 1.04. This adds additional options to refine the combat mechanics and stealth boy functionality.

More interestingly, though, is that somebody implemented first-person leaning by changing idle animations. I never thought of that, though largely because I've never worked with the animations. Anyway, it's a big step closer to true lean. The only thing that is lacking now is the ability to shoot from a leaning position. You can read more about it here (http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/mods/53063). I haven't tried it out myself yet.

Cool, once I get a new PC Fallout:NV modded will be the first game I play, and I'll be keeping an eye on this mod.

Ah, I was hoping somebody would come up with a work-around for lean, hopefully it gets completely fulfilled soon.

Stealth boy functionality? In my opinion those should be nerfed, nerfed to hell.

Firstly, they give +100 sneak. This renders sneaking skill irrelevant for many reasons, as it is already a weak skill:

-There is NEVER a sneak skill check in conversations or special interactions once in the whole game, as far as I am aware.
-HIDDEN, CAUTION, DANGER label etc makes sneaking very easy, especially in combination with third person cam.
-Activate stealth boy for 100 sneak and go on a pickpocketing spree in combination with manual save abuse, or sneak past any challenge.
-Whilst sneaking past enemies is easier with a higher sneak skill, stealing loot is never an issue even with very low sneak.

Secondly, the stealth boys, whilst rare, are still too common and last a long time.

Lastly, and most importantly, I wiped out Dead Wind Cavern with a 12.7mm submachine gun silenced + ONE stealth boy (and drugs such as psycho + slasher, of course). The deathclaws had trouble detecting me with the stealth boy and silencer, it was rediculously easy. And I never put points into sneak because if I ever want to do anything sneaking related that requires high sneak skill the stealth boy goes on.

What I'd do is reduce the number of stealth boys found in the game, make it only give you +25 sneak skill (but still invisibilty field, obviously) so pickpocketing requires investing in the skill, and also reduce the duration the effect lasts by at least 50%....then the sneak skill will actually have meaning (besides the perk requirements) and not be able to wipe out one of the toughest dungeons in the game so easily, you should at least have to use multiple stealth boys for that as consequence...but that's just me.
Lastly, it's important to note that I do not sneak much in FO:NV (have still done my fair share) & I haven't played the PC version, though it's essentially the same game across each platform I'm sure, minus mods, but I still think I make a strong argument and nerfing stealth boys would be perfect for a stealth mod.
You mention you have given the player adjustable values for stealth boy, but if it were me I'd nerf it and force it on the player, but again, that's me. Old games used to force a challenge, well, mind you New Vegas kinda does by default even on easy, but it's more an intellectual challenge. The devs made sure to patch most of the exploits too after release when they didn't have to, they clearly want the game to be challenging, but there is a few small oversights (not that I blame them, such a vast game).

Oh, to top it off I'd remove sneak attack criticals with guns (melee kept, obviosuly) by default and make it a perk that requires 50 or higher base sneak skill OR make sneak skill influence the sneak attack critical multiplier. This is another reason why sneak skill doesn't mean much, just sneak attack critical everything with guns even with low sneak skill.

Also, the magazines need a nerf. +5 skill points default, +10 with retention. I know, I know, go make my own mod. I do think my design advice is the business though :p

I have a question for you, actually: do you know if the Sprint Mod by Lork has 1st person animations and is it compatable with your mod? And if not would you consider implementing it in your mod but make it produce a fair of a lot of noise, if it doesn't already. probably does.

Edit: OK, looked into your mod in greater detail after the above.


STEALTH BOY CHANGES:

The first change you'll notice is that you will now receive a 30 and 10 second warning on your interface before a stealth field is going to dissipate. This is essential since the duration of a stealth field is now adjustable based on player skill. Stealth field charges also stack in duration so that if you activate one while the field from a previous stealth boy is still running, you get the full sum of the new charge with the remainder of the last one. You can set the charge duration and the applicable skill from the MCM menu.

Ok, that's very good. What are the default duration values, the duration with 0 sneak skill and the duration with 100 sneak skill? I don't like that you give the player the option to scale the values though, some things should be forced on the player.


There are two additional options you have to affect Stealth Boy behaviour. The first determines whether or not making an aggressive action prematurely negates a stealth field. What this means is that if you're currently stealthed and you make an attack against an enemy, the stealth field automatically dissipates, regardless of how much of a charge remained.


****. You outshone me and I wasted my time typing the above. Damn, that knocked me down a peg. :lol:
Though maybe you got some good ideas out of it, such as the magazines or the sneak attack multiplier for guns influenced by sneak skill/requiring a perk to even be able to execute. Oh, and definitely the Stealth boy not giving +100 sneak, should definitely consider that.
You and I working together, we could achieve great things. And you can already see that I can admit when an idea of mine is inferior :)

Wow, your roleplayer's mod is pretty good too, especially the XP system. That's exactly what DX:HR needs.

Would you like further discussion in regards to the mods?

I'll start with this:


Looting Unconscious NPCs

Unlike Vanilla New Vegas, you now have the opportunity to loot unconscious NPCs. Simply highlight the unconscious NPC with your crosshair and press the Activate button ('E'). A menu will appear asking if you want to Search or Talk to the NPC. Talking is ineffective; however, Searching will roll a die comparing the NPC's Sneak and Luck scores versus those of the Player. If the player's roll succeeds, then you may freely loot the NPC's inventory. If the roll fails then you will be unable to access their inventory until the NPC is killed or wakes up and is subsequently knocked out again.

Why random number generation? A very good thing about FO:NV's RPG systems is there are lots of skill requirements rather than die rolls based on skill, preventing save scumming. I'm sure you already recognise this, I assume after looking at many great design decisions you have made. This would be better as a sneak skill check requirement, the requirement value varying based on NPC, tougher NPCs with better loot= higher requirement as a guideline, or as an easier method you could just have generic characters require 50 sneak and unique characters require 90 or whatever.
Perhaps you just wanted it to be similar to pickpocketing, which it essentially is, but something needs to be done for pickpocketing too imo. As it stands: Save game->attempt to pickpocket. Failure=reload save and try again until success. A skill requirement eliminates this exploit and gives the skill more weight. Or maybe there should be a skill requirement before you can even attempt the die roll at the very least?

ColBashar
23rd Oct 2013, 15:18
The way the mod is set up now is that you can select one of four initial presets. The most hard core, the one you would pick CyberP, is "Deus Esque". The NPC Cone of Vision is a static 160 degree arc. Stealth boys last 12-50 seconds, based on your Repair skill. Sneak attack criticals are completely disabled, but you get a bonus for attacking a target's rear arc, higher if you're using a melee weapon. Sneak movement is also 33% of run. And, last but not least, the sneaking indicators ("hidden" "danger" etc) are completely removed. Basically I tried to model it after Deus Ex as much as I could.

In my preferred preset that I used for testing, I have the stealth boys set to 20 to 120 seconds, based on Sneak; however, aggressive actions will break the stealth field so they're mainly useful for scouting. The Cone of Vision is 120-180 degrees, which ranges between vanilla FNV and Dishonored with Deus Ex falling about average.

Regarding the Stealth Boy Sneak bonus, it's actually +75 but, yeah, I already removed that completely. Since my mod negates the impact of Sneak on visual detection checks, and since stealth boys are designed to make you invisible, it was just redundant. There's no reason an invisibility field should impact auditory detection, let alone pickpocketing. I just didn't see the need to mention this in the mod description.

As for magazine bonuses, that's simple enough that you should be able to mod that without breaking a sweat. Fifteen minutes, tops, including the time it would take you to navigate the GECK for the first time. The thing is that with my Actor's Module, which reduced the number of skill points you get on level up, I find that the magazines are fine as they are. If I were to make a change it would be to extend the duration of combat related magazines so that they last me long enough to clear an area.

Regarding the unconscious NPCs, I actually had to deprecate this since it was part of the unstable version of the Actor's Module. Something was causing a crash and I could never root out what it was so I'm going to have to rebuild the module from scratch. Currently available is a placeholder which only affects skill points.

To answer your question, though, the reason is granularity. Skills in Fallout 3/NV lie on a range of 0-100. I want every single point to be an improvement over the point before it. This isn't the case if you look at systems like lockpicking and hacking. There's a world of difference between having a lockpick score of 24 versus 25 but the difference between scores of 25 and 26 is negligible, even though the difference between both pairs is identical. Because you're applying fine-grain skill point system to a rough-grain challenge system, the excess skill points are made redundant.

Another example is the Repair skill. In most cases players either ignore the skill outright or bring it to 50 so that they can craft weapon repair kits. Some might keep it at 25 to ensure a steady supply of low grade propellant ammunition. But again these milestones make the skill points between them redundant. This is why in my new Repair Module I changed the mechanics to give skill points a greater impact on field stripping weapons and armour, as well as a direct impact on their rate of decay.

Anyway, I applied an RNG to ensure that every skill point the player has invested in Sneak can make a difference in whether or not a player may loot an unconscious victim. Bear in mind also that the extent to which the RNG will boost the check is defined by the player's Luck score, so it's still defined by your character sheet. PC's with a high luck score will find themselves randomly getting... well, lucky! PC's with low Luck will have to invest more points in Sneak to compensate.

CyberP
23rd Oct 2013, 15:33
Excellent. All excellent work. Definitely will be getting this mod.

For pickpocketing, a skill requirement check before the die roll is even able to be attempted would omit save scumming though, whilst still having purpose for individual invested skill points (after the requirement is met).

And I wouldn't say the skill points in-between 25-50 for, say, lockpicking are redundant though, as they are necessary to reach the next "ability unlock" (able to pick medium locks, and get closer to being able to pick hard and very hard locks), but giving each point or every 2 points more purpose would be cool.

These difficulty presets, you can only choose them before you start a new game, then you cannot change mid-game? I guess the clue is right there: "initial presets". Brilliant. I want this mod man.

Also, way back to the start: Deus Ex did take notes from Fallout (original)- The Localized Health system for one.

Also, when I said "2 seconds reaction time is too much" I was referring to DX, Fallout has large groups of enemies and less cover and no fancy augs so those 2 seconds is a must have setting imo.

ColBashar
23rd Oct 2013, 16:44
I call them initial presets because they define the game settings when you initialize the mod. These are for people who just want to start playing without going into the configuration menu and tweaking values. However, what I will be adding in the next update is the option to lock yourself out of the configuration menu, if you so choose. Of course, it won't prevent a player from making a clean save, wiping his current settings and starting over, but it serves as a deterrent for people who have the impulse to adjust settings on an incidental basis.

Speaking of locks, you'll be happy to know that I'm in the preliminary stages of building a mod that will supplant the lockpick and hacking minigames with a resource-based means of access ala multitools. Consequently I'll probably end up removing (if I can) the skill requirement to bypass a lock in favour of increasing the number of bobby pins that will need to be consumed, Deus Ex style. Consumption would also be balanced based on the number of bobby pins in the game compared to the number and quality of locks, taking random spans into account.

If your main objection to RNGs is "save scumming", the way to fix this is to roll them all on game initialization and apply them to save game files. Of course I can't mod that into FNV, it has to be implemented during development of the executable, but it's worth noting that Dishonored already has done with with the bone charms and safe combinations. New Vegas actually has its own mechanism to prevent abuse of the casinos, though I don't know the specifics. So I think we'll see more of this implementation in the future. It's certainly something I would do if building such a game from the ground up.

Otherwise, the way I'd modify the lockpick system that's in place now would be to apply a +/- 12.5 random modifier to the lock requirement. So let's say you have an "easy" lock with a 25 challenge rating. The RNG modifies that to a range of 12.5 to 37.5. If your Lockpick skill is 12 or less, you have no chance of picking the lock, 38 or higher and the opportunity to pick is guaranteed. Between that range, though, and it's a combination of chance and how close your Sneak skill is to the upper threshold. If you fail the roll then the lock is blocked to you until your Sneak score surpasses the upper threshold that would allow you to access it normally. This would maintain the current system of thresholds while creating an additional layer of granularity to ensure that each skill point is valuable.

One thing you have to appreciate is that with the Actor's Module installed, you're only going to be getting between 0.5 to 6 skill points per level up, based on Intelligence. So if you put only a handful of points into a skill, I want the difference to be demonstrable, even if it takes a while for the bonus to add up. With an Intelligence of 10 it would take you at least five levels to raise your Lockpick or Science skill by 25 points. If your Intelligence is 1, well, it might not even be possible depending on your starting stats and level cap.

Now, as for pickpocketing... hrmmm... I'll have to think about that. There might be a workaround.

CyberP
23rd Oct 2013, 17:16
I call them initial presets because they define the game settings when you initialize the mod. These are for people who just want to start playing without going into the configuration menu and tweaking values. However, what I will be adding in the next update is the option to lock yourself out of the configuration menu, if you so choose. Of course, it won't prevent a player from making a clean save, wiping his current settings and starting over, but it serves as a deterrent for people who have the impulse to adjust settings on an incidental basis.

Very good.


Speaking of locks, you'll be happy to know that I'm in the preliminary stages of building a mod that will supplant the lockpick and hacking minigames with a resource-based means of access ala multitools. Consequently I'll probably end up removing (if I can) the skill requirement to bypass a lock in favour of increasing the number of bobby pins that will need to be consumed, Deus Ex style. Consumption would also be balanced based on the number of bobby pins in the game compared to the number and quality of locks, taking random spans into account.

Not sure if I agree here. Bobby pins are extremely common and can even be bought from shops ad infinitum.
So at skill of 10 I could just spam bobby pins until I unlock a Very Hard lock?
I guess it's hard to say what your final idea for this system is besides what you typed and using Deus Ex as a model, but simply adding multitools would be cool (and still having to pass the requirement check also).

Why not expand on the mini games themselves? Make lockpick skill influence how durable a bobby pin is and science effect how many hidden nodes (the hidden "dud removed" & "allowance replenished" nodes) there are for example.


If your main objection to RNGs is "save scumming", the way to fix this is to roll them all on game initialization and apply them to save game files. Of course I can't mod that into FNV, it has to be implemented during development of the executable, but it's worth noting that Dishonored already has done with with the bone charms and safe combinations.

That's not possible in this instance, as some RNG (pickpocketing is one) is influenced by skills and therefore constantly changing, or am I misunderstanding you?

The best way is a well designed restrictive save system a la Dark Souls. Perfect save system. There are no flaws one can find with it. You can save anywhere but you have to quit if so, the game is constantly autosaving (most notably when you die) so every action's consequences are permanent. Every **** up you have to deal with the consequences. Risk taking is just that, consequences may arise. Experimentation is still possible, but may have consequences, the only arguable flaw.


New Vegas actually has its own mechanism to prevent abuse of the casinos, though I don't know the specifics. So I think we'll see more of this implementation in the future. It's certainly something I would do if building such a game from the ground up.

Yes, that and all the skill requirements. The casino restriction isn't that effective though, it just forces you to wait 1 minute before you can gamble after reloading a save. Hardly effective at all, but it helps.


Otherwise, the way I'd modify the lockpick system that's in place now would be to apply a +/- 12.5 random modifier to the lock requirement. So let's say you have an "easy" lock with a 25 challenge rating. The RNG modifies that to a range of 12.5 to 37.5. If your Lockpick skill is 12 or less, you have no chance of picking the lock, 38 or higher and the opportunity to pick is guaranteed. Between that range, though, and it's a combination of chance and how close your Sneak skill is to the upper threshold. If you fail the roll then the lock is blocked to you until your Sneak score surpasses the upper threshold that would allow you to access it normally. This would maintain the current system of thresholds while creating an additional layer of granularity to ensure that each skill point is valuable.

Ah, this is cool and is something that can be generated upon game initiation for each individual lock. I'd like that, good idea.


One thing you have to appreciate is that with the Actor's Module installed, you're only going to be getting between 0.5 to 6 skill points per level up, based on Intelligence. So if you put only a handful of points into a skill, I want the difference to be demonstrable, even if it takes a while for the bonus to add up. With an Intelligence of 10 it would take you at least five levels to raise your Lockpick or Science skill by 25 points. If your Intelligence is 1, well, it might not even be possible depending on your starting stats and level cap.

0.5 to 6? Interesting. I assume "educated" can make it 8 though, or did you remove that too? 50x6= 300 skill points to distribute in a playthrough not including skill books. Isn't that a bit overkill? Kinda forces you to get 10 intelligence early and educated, if it's available. I guess it goes back to some things should be forced on the player for a better game, and they are called "Intelligence" and "educated" afterall ;) Only an idiot wouldn't pick those if you can only distribute so few points.


Now, as for pickpocketing... hrmmm... I'll have to think about that. There might be a workaround.

40 sneak skill requirement for generic characters, 75 for unique. Once requirement is met pickpocketing RNG can be attempted, influenced by sneak skill and luck as is now. Makes sense to me, simply prevents someone with lower sneak skill save scumming till they get "la lounge carabine" and gives sneak skill more weight....

...Yes, you cannot actually even pickpocket that gun but you get my point.

ColBashar
23rd Oct 2013, 20:24
The only reason bobby pins seem common is because you almost never expend them. In my current playthrough I have 75 lockpicks in my inventory. Let's round that up to 80 to account for any that may have broken. My character stats tell me that I've picked 77 locks. So even if it only costs me on average two bobby pins to bypass a lock, that would have blocked me from 30-40 locks by virtue of resource scarcity alone.

I actually already implemented the mod. It was remarkably easy. I even added functionality that would allow you to convert robots and turrets to allies. Bot Domination, if you will. It's in rough form and needs balancing and polish before I'll be ready to publish it but the functionality is there.


That's not possible in this instance, as some RNG (pickpocketing is one) is influenced by skills and therefore constantly changing

What will you give me if I demonstrate otherwise? <g>

As for the Actor's Module, the diminished skill points on level up is compensated by an increased number of points you get from your SPECIAL stats. This changes the progression curve so that before level 16 you're stronger than in the vanilla game but post level 16 you become progressively weaker. It also means that how you allocate your SPECIAL points at the start of the game has a bigger impact on what kind of character you want to play.

My original solution to the Educated perk was to have it give only +1 point per level but you could get up to three ranks of it. I had also replaced the Intense Training perk for a Well Rounded one which gave +2 points to all your skills. Well Rounded was technically more beneficial skill point wise but because the mod encourages specialization, most of the points went into skills you didn't much care about to begin with. All of that was wiped when I had to deprecate the older version of the module for the stable, stripped down one, but I'll add it back eventually.

Intelligence was over-powered in the vanilla game, and the Actor's Module only exacerbates that, but I look at it as an added difficulty setting. The dumber the PC, the greater the challenge.

ColBashar
2nd May 2014, 20:51
An update for anybody following my efforts to Deus Ex-ify Fallout: New Vegas. I just uploaded a new mod that models weapon spread mechanics after DX1. Not sure what people will think about this one since a lot of people panned DX1 for its skill-based cone of fire but... I liked it. So I implemented it. This means that using iron sights and crouching in FNV doesn't automatically make you super accurate. On the flip side, though, the penalties you accrue can also be mitigated by a high weapon score so that if you have 100 points invested then your shots will pretty much go where you intend them, as if playing a straight up shooter.

You can find the mod here (http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/55739). Also, I uploaded v1.05 of the Cover Based Stealth Mod (http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/51777), which fixes the auditory detection mechanics. It's now actually possible to dash/run behind NPCs without breaking stealth, depending on your Sneak score and equipment loadout.

CyberP
3rd May 2014, 00:09
An update for anybody following my efforts to Deus Ex-ify Fallout: New Vegas. I just uploaded a new mod that models weapon spread mechanics after DX1. .

Awesome :) That will give extra difficulty and depth to the gunplay.

How does the player mod accuracy then? Crouch, Iron Sights, gun skills, good limb condition and?
Also do we have dynamic crosshairs now to represent current accuracy?

Jito463
3rd May 2014, 03:11
You can find the mod here (http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/55739). Also, I uploaded v1.05 of the Cover Based Stealth Mod (http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/55739), which fixes the auditory detection mechanics. It's now actually possible to dash/run behind NPCs without breaking stealth, depending on your Sneak score and equipment loadout.

I'll have to check these out later, very nice. Just FYI, both your links lead to the same place. I think you meant this link for the stealth mod.

http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/51777

Se7enraven
3rd May 2014, 06:30
I am working on a similar type mod called "Fallout Ex Machina". You can see visuals of the progress here:

http://s20.photobucket.com/user/se7enraven/library/Fallout%20Ex%20Machina?sort=3&page=1

CyberP
3rd May 2014, 06:56
I am working on a similar type mod called "Fallout Ex Machina". You can see visuals of the progress here:

http://s20.photobucket.com/user/se7enraven/library/Fallout%20Ex%20Machina?sort=3&page=1

Looks like a strange mish-mash of DX1, DX:HR and New Vegas. Intriguing. Another FO:NV mod to try.

ColBashar
3rd May 2014, 15:24
CyberP:
Actually I made it so that iron sights and crouching do -not- impact spread. The way spread works in FNV is that the game looks for certain conditions and if they apply, adds a flat penalty. So there was a penalty for standing, a penalty for not aiming in iron sights, a penalty for having a crippled limb, etc. The movement penalty was unique because it graduated with time. What my mod does is reduces the number of penalties but increases significantly the impact of the penalties that remain.

Interesting to note, spread in Fallout 3 worked differently in that each weapon had its own spread value which was then multiplied based on conditions. A side effect of this formula, though, was that crouching and using iron sights combined multiplied spread by zero, effectively giving you perfect accuracy regardless of any other factor.

The Dynamic Crosshair (http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/43550) mod adds an aiming reticule for vanilla FNV. I did open it up to see how it works and determine if I could convert it to my mod but unfortunately that effort never got anywhere. As it stands you can visually gauge how much spread you're experiencing by the amount your hand sways on screen.

In FNV spread and wobble are the same thing: a looping animation that modifies where your weapon is pointing relative to yourself. At one point during testing I had spread so bad that the hand was actually swaying off the screen. This is why a spread bonus for using iron sights didn't make much sense to me, since it has the effect of reducing wobble, which is the only thing that makes iron sights interesting. Using a scope with this mod will feel a -lot- more like Deus Ex, though it's still easier because you learn to anticipate the animation where the wobble in DX was randomized.

Jito:
Thanks for the heads up on the mistaken link. I'll correct that now.

Se7enraven:
Your mod looks great! I mean, I know it doesn't have the spit and polish of a professionally built map but an overhaul of that magnitude is quite an undertaking. Kudos to you. I hope you develop it to a state that you can share with us.

+1 for Fruity Oaty Bars.

CyberP
3rd May 2014, 22:43
CyberP:
Actually I made it so that iron sights and crouching do -not- impact spread.

Eh, no effect at all?

why not reduce base accuracy/increase wobble across the board and reduce the multipliers of crouching and iron sights, so they still actually have a purpose. One big flaw with all gamebryo games is, for whatever reason, there are no crawl spaces. Even if there is one you cannot get in it. It's as if for crouching they simply said "**** it, we'll give the camera an offset but not actually make the game character crouch". Now you've removed the accuracy bonus too, all it does is help with stealth? And now Iron sights have no use at all? :(

Why not have the DX1 spread in addition to NV's wobble? Then have aiming down sights eliminate the dx1 cone, but no effect on wobble.
I don't see the benefit of removing iron sights from play. I see it as a downside rather. NV's gunplay is so damn slow but the iron sight sniping makes up for it. Why not add the DX1 gunplay depth on top instead of just using it to replace?

What is your reasoning for this? am I understanding you correctly, wobble is replaced by randomized firing cone as in DX1?
Both combined, and keeping the crouch + sights modifiers (modifying them to accommodate firing cone an wobbble) sounds better to me.
With both systems there can be plenty depth, and all kinds of modifiers the player can use to obtain decent accuracy. Heck the steady chem may actually become worth taking.

I need to experience what you have actually done to have weighty opinion, but sad face. Most things you had done before seemed to have refined the design, and added more balance and depth. Not so sure about this one?

zwanzig_zwoelf
4th May 2014, 23:31
bro yeah fallout 3 is an awesome game but deus ex should not be like fallout 3 em did better job than bethesda but i still love bethesda and todd howard he is so cuddleable anyhoo glad to see you are trying to make the game more like deus ex keep up the good work maybe youll get hired by em

ColBashar
5th May 2014, 14:09
CyberP:
Projectiles in FNV always fire in the direction that your weapon is pointing (except when adjusted by auto-aim, which is a separate mechanic altogether). What may not be immediately obvious is that your weapon is -always- moving in FNV. Always. If you're in 1st person view and you see your hand swaying to the left, your rounds will go to the left of the crosshair. If it sways to the right, your rounds will follow suit. All wobble is is the manifestation of spread when the camera perspectives changes between 1st person, where it is positioned relative to the PC, and iron sights, where it is positioned relative to the PC's weapon.

The way vanilla FNV worked is that it gave you a flat penalty whenever you were in 1st or 3rd person camera. But because this didn't apply in iron sights view, your wobble was -never- reflective of the spread you were experiencing outside of iron sights. It didn't make much sense to me to have a mechanic that removes wobble specifically at the only time it's ever applied. So what my mod does is increase the amount of wobble compared to what you experienced in vanilla FNV. One means of mitigating that, as you suggest, would be to take the Steady chem.

As for crouching, bear in mind that it also reduces your hit box. Essentially it enables the player to make use of low lying cover such as dumpsters, cars, and ovens. By removing the spread penalty for standing, the player is encouraged to actually take advantage of that cover by popping out and firing a few rounds before ducking back out of fire. Essentially, standing is the new lean, except that the movement is vertical rather than horizontal; not unlike peeking in GMDX.

My mod does not intend nor attempt to impose the mechanics of DX1 on FNV but instead repurposes the FNV mechanics to simulate a more DX1 experience.

zwanzig_zwoelf:
Absolutely. Deus Ex and Fallout 3/NV are both great Action RPGs though I always felt that the latter focused more on the action than on the RPG. Most of my mods are designed to enhance FNV's latent RPG elements, to make the gameplay experience adapt more to the player's choices. That's something Deus Ex did really, really well and why it never gets uninstalled.

CyberP
5th May 2014, 17:46
Ah, my bad. But still, does Iron sights have a purpose now? This is unclear.

Also the minor auto aim, is that gone too? It's entirely unnecessary to assist with aiming and looks ridiculous, especially with laser weapons.


zwanzig_zwoelf:
Absolutely. Deus Ex and Fallout 3/NV are both great Action RPGs though I always felt that the latter focused more on the action than on the RPG. Most of my mods are designed to enhance FNV's latent RPG elements, to make the gameplay experience adapt more to the player's choices. That's something Deus Ex did really, really well and why it never gets uninstalled.

Eh, DX had plenty of latent RPG elements too. Tbh I like both FO's and DX's vanilla design of systems equally. Both are not perfect yet have a lot of well-designed depth for first person real-time games.
FO:NV does still have plenty choice and consquence design too: Cannot have all perks in one playthrough, all 10 points for each SPECIAL, limiting inventory, cannot exaust all dialogue options and so on. But of course, you indeed become a god-like character with little effort and your mod will be appreciated by me, probably more so than J.E Sawyers mod, which looks further limiting on things like inventory, but not on RPG elements which actually need limiting and rebalancing (skills most notably of course, which you appear to have sorted).

ColBashar
13th Jun 2014, 23:24
I finally got around to publishing my mod that treats lockpicking in FNV like it was in Deus Ex. You can download the Resource Based Hacking and Lockpicking Mod from here (http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/56117). The basic idea is that it disables the Fallout minigames and instead forces the player to spend bobby pins and a custom resource called multitools in order to access locked containers and computer consoles respectively. This takes time to do, depending on the number of resources being expended, so if you're in a dangerous environment there's the chance you may be interrupted by hostiles. The cost system also reintroduces choice since the player has the option of bypassing locks above the PC's skill level, but does so at the opportunity cost of bypassing several easier locks if resources are dear.

As an added feature you can use the same hotkey that bypasses locks to conveniently plant mines without having to select them from the inventory menu.

Video Demonstraction (though mostly just me talking about the mod from behind the camera):
8UZGRZsTtag

The Stealth (http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/51777) and Spread (http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/55739) Mods have also been updated since my last post here.

CyberP
13th Jun 2014, 23:35
http://businessofteaching.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/fallout-3-thumbs-up.jpg

Awesome. Love the quick mines hotkey, I noticed the increased weapon sway, cool new lock/hack systems. One thing though, and I think I may have asked you this before: what about bobby pins via vendors, couldn't you just farm them?

ColBashar
14th Jun 2014, 00:41
Well technically you could if you wanted. If you're playing with the jsawyer mod, though, you'll literally die of thirst before the three days pass to respawn merchant containers. So you'll have to nurse your PC's needs in the meantime. All that for maybe one bobby pin? Two at the most. Seems like a waste of time to me. Doubly so when I could just open up the console and toss however many bobby pins I want into my inventory with one command. It's so ridiculously easy to cheat in FNV that exploits like waiting for merchants to refresh their wares pale in comparison.

Your comment did cause me to go back and reevaluate the cost to bypass locks. One thing I noticed based on experience is that bobby pins seem to be more plentiful in FNV than in FO3. So I went ahead and doubled the costs from the values I was using in FO3. The cost to bypass locks is now 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 for very easy, easy, average, hard, and very hard locks respectively. I also raised the barter value of bobby pins to 20 caps, which isn't a lot but it means that even the easiest lock will cost you 40 caps if you're going the merchant route. There's no guarantee that the contents will be worth 40 caps to you.

The main impetus for building this mod is that I wanted to go back to when (as in Deus Ex) encountering a locked object cause me to pause in considering whether or not I wanted to bypass it. In FO3 by contrast you just cracked everything open, and in FNV you cracked open everything that Obsidian let you depending on your skill level. With this mod it allows the player to look at a cost-benefit analysis. If you're low on ammo or your weapon is wearing out but you have a lot of stim packs, a weapon locker is going to have a lot more potential value to you than a first aid box. If you only have enough bobby pins to open one or the other, you know which one you're choosing.

I noticed that I didn't answer your previous question about the spread mod. My mod does not impact auto-aim in any way, but that's because there are plenty of other mods that already turn it off. I recommend just using one of them. For people do want to keep auto-aim, I don't see any reason why my mod should interfere with that.

Regarding iron sights, the best I can tell you is that I use it. Actually I use it more consciously now that the intrinsic spread is enhanced. If I need my round to connect then I use iron sights but if I'm just laying down fire then it's easier just to fire snap shots. I think that's more realistic that way.

CyberP
14th Jun 2014, 23:19
Regarding iron sights, the best I can tell you is that I use it. Actually I use it more consciously now that the intrinsic spread is enhanced. If I need my round to connect then I use iron sights but if I'm just laying down fire then it's easier just to fire snap shots. I think that's more realistic that way.

Aha, I understand: Because the sway is increased, and this sway is always active even when hipfiring, you need to use iron sights to get a definite indication of where your shots are going to go because when hipfiring the shots wont all go to the crosshair so it's unreliable for long shots. Got it.

Edit: OK, taking a long look at your write-up posted above the mechanics are modelled after DX's almost to the latter, but better perhaps. I like that you made scope view speed influenced by the skill too, but why not make aim down sights speed in general influenced by skills? Not just for scopes but for iron sights too, what do you think?