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HallucinogenX
7th Jul 2012, 20:12
The issue throughout the game has been that whether augmentations would make us lose our "humanity".I could see why people would oppose the augmentation technology,i could understand Taggart's views.Replacing you limbs with machines is crazy.If this game were real then i would never get such augmentations.I would however have no problem getting some discreet augmentations but i would never walk around with a mechanical hand.

My point is that the game is set in a future where we have made immense leaps in technology then why is it that augmentation manufacturers do not spend more money and time in making the augmentations look real?You could bury the augment in a layer of muscle and tissue and wrap it with a layer of epidermis.It's not that difficult especially in a future where we have self aware super computers.

I'm not saying this would solve the debate but somehow it would make augments more natural.Or if that is not possible at least paint the augments skin color rather than black.David Sarif's augmented hand for example would look much better if it were painted with skin color rather than black. In fact the only time i saw skin color augments were when i read a newspaper article about an augmented singer.

Why not try to make augments more natural?That is so stupid.Abstraction is very much necessary.It's like not having a casing in a machine.This is the reason why nano augmentations are so much better,it's because they are discreet.The makers could have tried to make augmentations much more discreet by as i said,by burying the augment in a layer of muscle and tissue and wrapping it with a layer of epidermis.This would also prevent the discrimination against augs as some major augments would be hidden so one could not tell if someone was augmented or not.

JCpies
7th Jul 2012, 20:56
The issue throughout the game has been that whether augmentations would make us lose our "humanity".I could see why people would oppose the augmentation technology,i could understand Taggart's views.Replacing you limbs with machines is crazy.If this game were real then i would never get such augmentations.I would however have no problem getting some discreet augmentations but i would never walk around with a mechanical hand.

That's your personal opinion, the game takes note of this.


My point is that the game is set in a future where we have made immense leaps in technology then why is it that augmentation manufacturers do not spend more money and time in making the augmentations look real?

A couple of reasons.

In the game we do see hints of this, skin toned limbs and such, I'm not sure how much farther some would go to hide it, but I'm sure there are people who do.

We also see radically different kinds of limbs, so just simply making them look like a natural leg wouldn't work, it would end up freakishly ugly.

There's also the fashion statement of 'designer augs', maybe someone wants to show off their wealth or perhaps the augmentation companies want to advertise their product to the public rather than hide it away.


You could bury the augment in a layer of muscle and tissue and wrap it with a layer of epidermis.It's not that difficult especially in a future where we have self aware super computers.

Some of the augmentations replicate muscle and nerves, that's why they're so advanced. You'd only need a layer of skin toned covering rather than the black/chrome ones we generally see in the game. Besides, Eliza is a secret AI used by Picus and the elites right? Not exactly common technology.


David Sarif's augmented hand for example would look much better if it were painted with skin color rather than black. In fact the only time i saw skin color augments were when i read a newspaper article about an augmented singer.

There you go. David's personal choice.


Why not try to make augments more natural?

I've noted this above, but also, augmentations are free to diverge from what humans are born with. Why limit yourself to the same shape and style of the human body, when you can have many variations to suit different purposes? Like the 'spider fingers' mentioned in Icarus Effect.


This is the reason why nano augmentations are so much better,it's because they are discreet.

That's not the sole reason nano-augmentation is much better, it has so much more potential.


This would also prevent the discrimination against augs as some major augments would be hidden so one could not tell if someone was augmented or not.

True, it would prevent on-the-spot discrimination, but it probably wouldn't halt the overall movements of Purity First and Humanity Front.

HallucinogenX
8th Jul 2012, 11:52
That's your personal opinion, the game takes note of this.

Yes i do understand that but my point was that if the game were real most people would agree with me and not have their hands removed and replaced with mechanical arms.However in the game those who are against augmentation are a clear minority and most people happily embrace augmentations.I do not think this is a realistic scenario.To me this made the game a little unrealistic.Maybe if the augments in the game looked indistinguishable (at least on the surface) from natural limbs,that could explain why people would get them and it would make the story more convincing and realistic.




A couple of reasons.

In the game we do see hints of this, skin toned limbs and such, I'm not sure how much farther some would go to hide it, but I'm sure there are people who do.

We also see radically different kinds of limbs, so just simply making them look like a natural leg wouldn't work, it would end up freakishly ugly.

There's also the fashion statement of 'designer augs', maybe someone wants to show off their wealth or perhaps the augmentation companies want to advertise their product to the public rather than hide it away.

The thing is that no matter how advanced we get we would still want to feel human.When people touch each other they want to feel soft muscles and skin,not the cold of steel.And in a scientifically advanced future people would not have to chose between these two,they could get both.At least the super rich can.




Some of the augmentations replicate muscle and nerves, that's why they're so advanced. You'd only need a layer of skin toned covering rather than the black/chrome ones we generally see in the game. Besides, Eliza is a secret AI used by Picus and the elites right? Not exactly common technology.

Yes they do replicate muscles and nerves but the reason an augmentation with a layer of muscle and skin would be better is because it would be advanced yet look and feel like a normal body part.It would feel soft rather than metallic.




I've noted this above, but also, augmentations are free to diverge from what humans are born with. Why limit yourself to the same shape and style of the human body, when you can have many variations to suit different purposes? Like the 'spider fingers' mentioned in Icarus Effect.

Different is not bad but it's not always good too.Most augments look hideous especially the cheap ones which the motor city bangers have.




That's not the sole reason nano-augmentation is much better, it has so much more potential.

Of course but i was just pointing to another advantage of nano augs - that they are discreet.In terms of the humanity front,we would be able to get more advanced yet preserve our humanity.




True, it would prevent on-the-spot discrimination, but it probably wouldn't halt the overall movements of Purity First and Humanity Front.

Of course it won't but it would at least enable people to walk through streets without the fear of someone ripping their arm off or taunting and insulting them.That's a pretty big advantage.



I loved the game but i felt that some of the issues in the game could've been easily solved by making augmentations appear natural.

JCpies
8th Jul 2012, 12:19
Yes i do understand that but my point was that if the game were real most people would agree with me and not have their hands removed and replaced with mechanical arms.

You speak for too many people.


However in the game those who are against augmentation are a clear minority and most people happily embrace augmentations.I do not think this is a realistic scenario.To me this made the game a little unrealistic.

I actually thought the opposite. You know, it's definitely not a clear minority considering "Augmented people use back entrance" and people on the street discriminating and threatening you.

I think they struck the right balance.


Maybe if the augments in the game looked indistinguishable (at least on the surface) from natural limbs,that could explain why people would get them and it would make the story more convincing and realistic.

No.


The thing is that no matter how advanced we get we would still want to feel human.When people touch each other they want to feel soft muscles and skin,not the cold of steel.And in a scientifically advanced future people would not have to chose between these two,they could get both.At least the super rich can.

Again, you're speaking for too many people. Look at the gangsters in the game who have their limbs chromed/painted in gold. Look at the gangsters in Heng Sha who take pride in their mean looking Tai Yong limbs. Then there are the average rich people who feel they need to show off their wealth. I mean, I'm pretty sure I've said all this before, but the point is that you're not the majority.



Different is not bad but it's not always good too.Most augments look hideous especially the cheap ones which the motor city bangers have.

I don't like face piercings, but is that stopping people who do like them from getting their faced pierced.


Of course but i was just pointing to another advantage of nano augs - that they are discreet.In terms of the humanity front,we would be able to get more advanced yet preserve our humanity.

Is humanity restricted to flesh and bone? I think you missed a great deal of what the conflicts in this game were about.


Of course it won't but it would at least enable people to walk through streets without the fear of someone ripping their arm off or taunting and insulting them.That's a pretty big advantage.

If someone is going to rip your arm off, having their augmentations hidden behind a layer of skin toned material isn't going to stop them from doing so.

m G h m u o s
8th Jul 2012, 12:25
Maybe the mechanical / exposed augs are just cheaper? I mean we have prosthetics nowadays and I'd imagine having the skin tone model with the realistic looking hand (for example) would be more expensive than the basic prosthetic.

But also as JCpie said, I got the impression some people wanted to show off their wealth and stuff, like how people wear/buy designer clothes and jewellery and all that stuff now.

lowenz
8th Jul 2012, 23:10
Don't forget the "fashion factor" of augs and the power of fashion on human mind since.....ever.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
9th Jul 2012, 08:57
Is humanity restricted to flesh and bone? I think you missed a great deal of what the conflicts in this game were about.


QFT. :thumb:

sonicsidewinder
9th Jul 2012, 20:31
What a presumptuous fellow.

bat_brain
11th Jul 2012, 02:12
im fairly certain HR takes place like 2 decades before the o.g. deus ex, & like 40 years before invisible war.

therefore, in short, nanotechnology has not been practically implemented @ this point. there are inklings of it exisiting in the near future, in game, but theyre not quite there yet.

the kid with the glasses (dev) mentions in the "making of" dvd (that comes with the augmented edition) that he didnt want the augs to look ridiculously mechanical (with wires sticking out, etc) so they decided to balance the augs
with themes consistent with "transhumanism" & "cyber punk", without looking too cyborg-ish, if that makes sense.

they ultimately decided on making them look similar to prosthetics (along with some consultation from actual prosthetic developers) sticking with the idea of "form equaling function", as far as the anatomy/functionality of the augs themselves, especially on the main characters.

in essence, they wanted to make the augs as believable as possible, & the route they chose isnt too implausible to comprehend, imo, considering its technically only a decade or so removed from technology we have today. (the form, maybe not so much the function)

i thought they did a real good job, & the game reflects this quite well at the same time.

HallucinogenX
11th Jul 2012, 13:49
You speak for too many people.



I'm not speaking for too many people,i'm just thinking about it realistically.It is very realistic to assume that most people would not want to get their normal healthy hands and legs removed and replaced with mechanical ones.Try asking people around you whether they would do it.I'm just saying most people would not.




I actually thought the opposite. You know, it's definitely not a clear minority considering "Augmented people use back entrance" and people on the street discriminating and threatening you.

I think they struck the right balance.


Ya i agree they did make a right balance in the game.I'm just saying it's clear that augmentation corporations such as Sarif,Versalife,Tai Yong Medical etc. are super rich and make a butt load of profit and are amongst the richest corporations in the world.This would not be possible if their target audience was a minority.And the people on the street who discriminate are mostly hobos or gang members.Also many people who protest on the street are extremists and don't represent a majority.




No.



Of course it would.Most people would not want to be cyborgs.Maybe you do but most people would not.If they could get the powers of robocop without looking like robocop then they would rush to get them.How can you say it will have no effect on the sale of augments at all?





Again, you're speaking for too many people. Look at the gangsters in the game who have their limbs chromed/painted in gold. Look at the gangsters in Heng Sha who take pride in their mean looking Tai Yong limbs. Then there are the average rich people who feel they need to show off their wealth. I mean, I'm pretty sure I've said all this before, but the point is that you're not the majority.



Well you can be accused to speak for too many people too cuz you don't know what they'd do too.It is not unrealistic at all to think that most people would not want to look like robocop but maybe they'd have no problem looking like the terminator.I understand that augs are like a fashion statement in the game but i'm just saying this is not very likely.Also if augs looked natural then those who have augments would benifit hugely from it as they'd not have to face discrimination or the fear of someone killing them.





I don't like face piercings, but is that stopping people who do like them from getting their faced pierced.



Face piercings and augments are very different things.Getting a new prosthetic limb even though there's nothing wrong with your natural limb is not the same as getting a piercing.It's not even close.




Is humanity restricted to flesh and bone? I think you missed a great deal of what the conflicts in this game were about.


I'm not missing anything.I was just "stating" what the humanity front and many of those who are against augmentations believe.I totally agreed when Adam Jensen said that humanity is not restricted to flesh and bones.However as i said before not many people would want to look like robocop.Most people would not want to touch a machine.Imagine having sex with someone who is made of steel instead of skin.



If someone is going to rip your arm off, having their augmentations hidden behind a layer of skin toned material isn't going to stop them from doing so.


Uuh.Of course it's going to stop them cuz they won't even know you have any augmentations.

JCpies
11th Jul 2012, 14:40
Ya i agree they did make a right balance in the game.I'm just saying it's clear that augmentation corporations such as Sarif,Versalife,Tai Yong Medical etc. are super rich and make a butt load of profit and are amongst the richest corporations in the world.This would not be possible if their target audience was a minority.

They market to the military, security firms, wealthy people, people involved in sport and disabled people. There's a lot of profit to be made.
Considering how some people with augs seem to be close to the poverty line, it's possible to think that there are cheap lines of augmentations that are able to be marketed to people with less money. They also must make a lot from the constant demand for Neuropozyne.



Well you can be accused to speak for too many people too cuz you don't know what they'd do too.

You keep on repeating about how most people don't want to look like Robocop or some nonsense, at least I've given evidence and taken into account a multitude of different perspectives.



Also if augs looked natural then those who have augments would benifit hugely from it as they'd not have to face discrimination or the fear of someone killing them.

Just like homosexuals shouldn't let their relationships out in the open, because they are the ones to blame if they get insulted by a homophobe.

And let's not forget the women who are at fault for being raped because they wore a short skirt. :rolleyes:


Imagine having sex with someone who is made of steel instead of skin.

I do. Every night in fact. :naughty:

All I want to say is, they took all this into account when they were creating the game, they executed it how they felt it was appropriate and I think they did a good job. :thumb:

HallucinogenX
11th Jul 2012, 17:55
They market to the military, security firms, wealthy people, people involved in sport and disabled people. There's a lot of profit to be made.
Considering how some people with augs seem to be close to the poverty line, it's possible to think that there are cheap lines of augmentations that are able to be marketed to people with less money. They also must make a lot from the constant demand for Neuropozyne.



It is true that a big chunk of the profit comes from military contracts however it is very clear in the game that augmentations are the new big thing and many people are augmented.If you notice in the game people are losing their jobs because they are not augmented like in the mission in The Hive where you need to retrieve an augmentation from a woman who got the augmentation because without it she could never compete with others.Also many people say they've lost everything because they are not augmented and are forced to live on the streets.Also only Versalife makes profit from neuropozyne and if only military and a select few people used it then the company would not be as profitable as it is.




You keep on repeating about how most people don't want to look like Robocop or some nonsense, at least I've given evidence and taken into account a multitude of different perspectives.



Evidence?Well i don't remember you giving any so called "evidence".In fact it is me who has taken a multitude of different perspectives.I never said that this can never happen in real life and that no one will ever want to get augmented.I'm just saying most people would not get augmented yet many people would.It's quite obvious that not many people would want to become robocop.Yet you reject it as nonsense.




Just like homosexuals shouldn't let their relationships out in the open, because they are the ones to blame if they get insulted by a homophobe.

And let's not forget the women who are at fault for being raped because they wore a short skirt. :rolleyes:



If a homosexual has to walk through a an alley where he will be killed if he is a homosexual,then perhaps it would help if he didn't wear that flamboyant pink shirt.At least he has the choice of not wearing pink.But what choice do augmented people have?They can't hide their augmentations.Suppose you don't want to but what if there's a guy who would rather hide his augments then get brutally killed,then what choice does he have?




I do. Every night in fact. :naughty:

All I want to say is, they took all this into account when they were creating the game, they executed it how they felt it was appropriate and I think they did a good job. :thumb:


Well i can't deny i've thought of that too sometimes.

I think the makers did an excellent job too but they could have shown that natural looking augments exist but they are very expensive so the common man has to buy robot looking augs.That's just my opinion and i think it would have made a very realistic game even more real.

JCpies
11th Jul 2012, 18:23
Also only Versalife makes profit from neuropozyne and if only military and a select few people used it then the company would not be as profitable as it is.

That's probably true, I don't know how it's distributed though.


Evidence?Well i don't remember you giving any so called "evidence".In fact it is me who has taken a multitude of different perspectives.I never said that this can never happen in real life and that no one will ever want to get augmented.I'm just saying most people would not get augmented yet many people would.It's quite obvious that not many people would want to become robocop.Yet you reject it as nonsense.

http://robinbrown.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/facepalm-500x4001.jpg



If a homosexual has to walk through a an alley where he will be killed if he is a homosexual,then perhaps it would help if he didn't wear that flamboyant pink shirt.At least he has the choice of not wearing pink.But what choice do augmented people have?They can't hide their augmentations.Suppose you don't want to but what if there's a guy who would rather hide his augments then get brutally killed,then what choice does he have?

http://thehumanscorch.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/double-facepalm.jpg


I think the makers did an excellent job too but they could have shown that natural looking augments exist but they are very expensive so the common man has to buy robot looking augs.

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh, but they did! Do you see everyone walking around with Adam Jensen's synthetic muscles or Jaron Namir's full body mech upgrades?

The lower classes have less developed augmentations, while the rich have more natural and effective augmentations, while high profile soldiers like Jensen and the Tyrants have the most advanced and expensive military grade augmentations.

HallucinogenX
11th Jul 2012, 23:02
Nice job hiding behind photos rather than making valid arguments :thumb:




Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh, but they did! Do you see everyone walking around with Adam Jensen's synthetic muscles or Jaron Namir's full body mech upgrades?

The lower classes have less developed augmentations, while the rich have more natural and effective augmentations, while high profile soldiers like Jensen and the Tyrants have the most advanced and expensive military grade augmentations.

No sh**.It's obvious that the rich have better augmentations.The whole point of my post was to say that natural looking augments do not exist in the game.I'm not saying everyone should've had natural looking augments but they could have at least shown that natural looking augs do exist but are much more expensive than normal augs so the common man is left looking like a cyborg.

Also it is clear in the game that nano augs are the next big thing.There's an essay about it by Hugh Darrow and many people you talk to say that when nano augs come along,the people with these augmentations would be left nowhere.

Natural looking augs could solve this problem too.30 years down the line,the augments that you wear so proudly will become old fashioned and shameful.However if your augments looked natural then there would be no way to tell just by looking at someone whether he has mechanichal or nano augs.It's just a little odd that a game that has self aware artificial intelligence and many other geniuses don't even think or mention or try to make augmentations look natural.80% of the issues in the game could be resolved if augmentations looked exactly like human limbs.It's just odd that it's not even mentioned.

JCpies
12th Jul 2012, 07:34
[Nice job hiding behind photos rather than making valid arguments :thumb:

You just made false claims, contradicted yourself and made a gross stereotype of homosexual people. I don't think I could gather up the effort to make a response to something like that.


No sh**.It's obvious that the rich have better augmentations.The whole point of my post was to say that natural looking augments do not exist in the game.I'm not saying everyone should've had natural looking augments but they could have at least shown that natural looking augs do exist but are much more expensive than normal augs so the common man is left looking like a cyborg.

SWEET ADAM JENSEN SERIOUSLY BRO.

I'VE BEEN TRYING TO TELL YOU SINCE MY FIRST RESPONSE THAT THERE ARE NATURAL LOOKING AUGMENTED LIMBS AND GIVEN REASONS AS TO WHY SOME PEOPLE WOULDN'T WANT TO HIDE THEM. PLEASE, STOP REPEATING YOURSELF.


Natural looking augs could solve this problem too.30 years down the line,the augments that you wear so proudly will become old fashioned and shameful.

That was partially dealt with in the first game, it wasn't a huge theme, but it was there. I know that the writers took it into account for this game though, I just don't remember where I saw it, perhaps an interview with Mary DeMarle not sure.

In Icarus Effect we see that some augmentation can be replaced, after they've broken, so it's fair to assume that like modern day tech (See Apple Iphone/Ipod/Ipad) that people with the money to do so will be upgrading every few years. We also see this with Tong and the triads, stealing limbs and either selling it off or replacing their own. I think it's fair to assume not all augmentations can be fully replaced, such as "mech augs", like Namir and Gunther, though no doubt they could be upgraded.


However if your augments looked natural then there would be no way to tell just by looking at someone whether he has mechanichal or nano augs.It's just a little odd that a game that has self aware artificial intelligence and many other geniuses don't even think or mention or try to make augmentations look natural.80% of the issues in the game could be resolved if augmentations looked exactly like human limbs.It's just odd that it's not even mentioned.

There are augmentations that DO look natural. See Adam Jensen.

There are augmentations that attempt to minimise standing out among natural limbs.

http://images.wikia.com/deusex/en/images/c/c5/Vasilisevchenko.png

I think it's fair to say that they can't create a viable way of applying living flesh to augmentations. And besides, having slick and glossy black arms is way more bad ass.

One more thing, if all augmentations looked perfectly natural like you say, it would be terrible from a narrative standpoint and would not fit in with the first Deus Ex.

HallucinogenX
12th Jul 2012, 13:09
You just made false claims, contradicted yourself and made a gross stereotype of homosexual people. I don't think I could gather up the effort to make a response to something like that.


I din't make any false claims nor did i contradict myself.And the gross stereotype of homosexuals was meant to be rhetorical.It's clear you didn't get the gist of message and what i was trying to say and you tried to portray me as some kind of homophobe when in reality i'm the exact opposite.




SWEET ADAM JENSEN SERIOUSLY BRO.

I'VE BEEN TRYING TO TELL YOU SINCE MY FIRST RESPONSE THAT THERE ARE NATURAL LOOKING AUGMENTED LIMBS AND GIVEN REASONS AS TO WHY SOME PEOPLE WOULDN'T WANT TO HIDE THEM. PLEASE, STOP REPEATING YOURSELF.

There are augmentations that DO look natural. See Adam Jensen.

There are augmentations that attempt to minimise standing out among natural limbs.

http://images.wikia.com/deusex/en/images/c/c5/Vasilisevchenko.png


Painting something skin color is not equal to "natural looking" :mad2: .By natural looking i meant augmentations that are indistinguishable from normal limbs in the way they look and feel.Give me one example of such an augment and i will never speak again.I understand why people would not want to get these natural augments and i understand how augments are a fashion and status symbol but that is not the point i'm discussing.So it is actually you who are repeating yourself over and over again.





I think it's fair to say that they can't create a viable way of applying living flesh to augmentations. And besides, having slick and glossy black arms is way more bad ass.

One more thing, if all augmentations looked perfectly natural like you say, it would be terrible from a narrative standpoint and would not fit in with the first Deus Ex.


It's very easy to create artifical skin and wrap them on augments especially in an extremely advanced future with friggin self aware super computers.

I never ever said that ALL augments should have looked natural.That would have been terrible but it's like no one in the world was even trying to blend the augments.That is what seemed very odd to me.

Zerim
12th Jul 2012, 14:08
HallucinogenX, you're right. If augmentation technology ever became as popular as it was portrayed in Human Revolution, I'm sure most people would opt for augs that looked and felt exactly like human body parts.

Already we can see this in the prosthetics that currently exist. Manufacturers are always looking for better ways to make their products look more natural, because that's what the majority of the customers want.

However, you are missing one point. In Human Revolution, technology has reached a point where these technological devices can SURPASS human capabilities. These machines are now BETTER than their flesh counterparts, and so they're now at a point where they are no longer being thought of as hopeless replacements, but instead as the next evolutionary step: things that are faster, stronger, more accurate, and get more capable with time, instead of weakened by it.

So since they are now being thought of as the BETTER version of human limbs, people are glamorizing them. Someone puts a cybernetic arm on and displays it, essentially saying "Look at me, I'm better than you."

Augs are the new sports cars. They are powerful and shiny, and people want to display them.

JCpies
12th Jul 2012, 16:43
I din't make any false claims nor did i contradict myself.And the gross stereotype of homosexuals was meant to be rhetorical.It's clear you didn't get the gist of message and what i was trying to say and you tried to portray me as some kind of homophobe when in reality i'm the exact opposite.

You wrote something ridiculously stereotypical and I assumed you were not aware of it. How was I meant to know you're "the exact opposite (of a homophobe)"? Did I even mention homophobia? Most of the people who stereotype homosexuals are not homophobic, they're just ignorant, or don't know any better (thanks to media representations may I add).


Painting something skin color is not equal to "natural looking" :mad2: .By natural looking i meant augmentations that are indistinguishable from normal limbs in the way they look and feel.

Can you not accept, just like with real life, that mechanical augmentations are not able or willing to replicate the human body to a perfect degree?


Give me one example of such an augment and i will never speak again.

Email Mary or Mr.Swallow and see if they'll change their game's lore for you. ;)


I understand why people would not want to get these natural augments and i understand how augments are a fashion and status symbol but that is not the point i'm discussing. So it is actually you who are repeating yourself over and over again.

I don't want to be rude, but that's something I mentioned in my very first post in this thread, and now you bring this up? I'm pretty sure I've laid out an extensive set of facts and clarifications but it's like you're not even taking note of my actual responses and nitpicking parts out of my post to criticise and say "I know you are, but what am I?"


It's very easy to create artifical skin and wrap them on augments especially in an extremely advanced future with friggin self aware super computers.

You mean artificial skin made of living tissue? It doesn't make sense that they could create living tissue and sustain it on augmentations if they can't even get artificial limbs to be accepted by the body without neuropozyne.

Having a self aware computer doesn't mean everything else is going to be just as advanced, isn't that a major convention of the cyber punk genre? Why would the Illuminati care to share the Eliza technology with the rest of the world?


I never ever said that ALL augments should have looked natural.That would have been terrible but it's like no one in the world was even trying to blend the augments.That is what seemed very odd to me.

If none of the explanations facts or plot points are doing anything to help you understand, just pretend there are people that have these "ultra-natural looking" limbs. You can't see them because they're so "natural looking" that you can't see them!

There, you can rest easy tonight.

HallucinogenX
13th Jul 2012, 00:05
You wrote something ridiculously stereotypical and I assumed you were not aware of it. How was I meant to know you're "the exact opposite (of a homophobe)"? Did I even mention homophobia? Most of the people who stereotype homosexuals are not homophobic, they're just ignorant, or don't know any better (thanks to media representations may I add).



Any normal person would try to see the point i was making but you refuse to see that point and all you do is bit*h about me using a supposed stereotype.I actually know a lot about homosexuality and i've had tons of debates in favor of gay rights and gay marriage.And btw the stereotype of associating pink shirts with gay men is not completely inaccurate.Sure all men who wear pink and behave effeminately are not gay and not all gay people wear pink,but some do and i was just using those people as an example.So let's not turn this into a discussion about homosexuality.




Can you not accept, just like with real life, that mechanical augmentations are not able or willing to replicate the human body to a perfect degree?


It would be very stupid to assume that they are "not able" to replicate human limbs.It's not time travel i'm talking about.The game is science fiction after all and anything is possible in science fiction.They could have easily shown that augments are covered in artificial skin.

Also i don't see why they would be "not willing" to to replicate the look of human limbs.The only argument to that is to say that augments are a fashion symbol.This is exactly the point i am critiquing.This scenario is kinda unrealistic because if you have natural looking augmentations then you get all the powers of the mechanichal augmentations yet you retain your natural look.



Email Mary or Mr.Swallow and see if they'll change their game's lore for you. ;)


Oh it's too late for that already.I wish i was in the writing team.It's just that the game is so epic and beautiful that one wants everything to be perfect.I would have changed other things too,especially the stupid boss battles.




I don't want to be rude, but that's something I mentioned in my very first post in this thread, and now you bring this up? I'm pretty sure I've laid out an extensive set of facts and clarifications but it's like you're not even taking note of my actual responses and nitpicking parts out of my post to criticise and say "I know you are, but what am I?"


I have no idea what the **** you are talking about.My point of critique is the total absence of natural looking augmentations in the game and how this makes the game unrealistic.They could have shown that people want augments badly and they want natural looking augmentations however these natural looking augmentations are difficult to produce and are hence much more expensive so the common man is left looking like a cyborg while the rich get all the advantages of augmentations without losing their human look.

Your explanation of that was that augments are a status and fashion symbol so people want to show that they are augmented.I never denied this fact,i just said that this is an unrealistic scenario.For a game that is so realistic,this just irritates me a little.So throughout the discussion i was just showing why this would be unrealistic (unrealistic =/= impossible).




You mean artificial skin made of living tissue? It doesn't make sense that they could create living tissue and sustain it on augmentations if they can't even get artificial limbs to be accepted by the body without neuropozyne.


Uuuh artificial limbs are not accepted because they are artificial.Duh?.Also the skin wouldn't need to be rejected by the body because it will just be a covering on the augmented limbs.It is very much possible to make living tissue with stem cells in the real world so in such an extremely advanced futuristic world,it is not at all difficult.Also it does not need to be made of actual skin cells,it just has to look and feel like skin.




Having a self aware computer doesn't mean everything else is going to be just as advanced, isn't that a major convention of the cyber punk genre? Why would the Illuminati care to share the Eliza technology with the rest of the world?


I understand that in a cyberpunk genre,computers are the most advanced technology however this does not mean that other areas are at a standstill.Also augmentation technology is a lot about biology so you cannot say that the field of biology and medicine has not evolved.I never said that Illuminati should make Eliza available to every home.Where did you get that idea from?




If none of the explanations facts or plot points are doing anything to help you understand, just pretend there are people that have these "ultra-natural looking" limbs. You can't see them because they're so "natural looking" that you can't see them!

There, you can rest easy tonight.


That's the thing,you are trying to explain stuff that is not explainable.I just aid out a scenario that is much more realistic and if included in the storyline,it wouldn't have changed it much.All i said was this would have made the game a bit more realistic.There is no disproving here.

HallucinogenX
13th Jul 2012, 00:25
HallucinogenX, you're right. If augmentation technology ever became as popular as it was portrayed in Human Revolution, I'm sure most people would opt for augs that looked and felt exactly like human body parts.

Already we can see this in the prosthetics that currently exist. Manufacturers are always looking for better ways to make their products look more natural, because that's what the majority of the customers want.



Thank you for agreeing with me.You see most people would not even want to get augmentations unless they really need them.Most people would be like "what am i going to do with artificial hands that give me super strength?".Then there is also the fact that your healthy natural hands would have to be removed and replaced with machines.There is also the fact that this costs a lot of money and you need to take a very expensive drug for the rest of your life.In the real world,if a person has lost his legs he would much rather have natural looking prosthetics rather than freaky robot legs.




However, you are missing one point. In Human Revolution, technology has reached a point where these technological devices can SURPASS human capabilities. These machines are now BETTER than their flesh counterparts, and so they're now at a point where they are no longer being thought of as hopeless replacements, but instead as the next evolutionary step: things that are faster, stronger, more accurate, and get more capable with time, instead of weakened by it.

So since they are now being thought of as the BETTER version of human limbs, people are glamorizing them. Someone puts a cybernetic arm on and displays it, essentially saying "Look at me, I'm better than you."

Augs are the new sports cars. They are powerful and shiny, and people want to display them.



That's true.I totally agree.I get how augmentations are a fashion symbol and a status symbol in the game.I'm just saying this is a little bit unrealistic and i don't think this will happen in the real world and for a game that is so realistic,this kinda bothers me.Here's why i think so.

Our natural bodies are our identity and are very important to us.William Taggart says that by getting augmented,we are losing our "humanity".I don't think we are losing our humanity because humanity is something which transcends the body and flesh,it's something in your mind.However what we are losing is our natural side and as i said in a previous reply most people would never want to become cyborgs.Natural looking augmentations will give us all the superpowers of augmentations and we will never lose our natural side.I gave the example of Robocop and Terminator earlier.Most people would never want to become like Robocop however they would not have much problem in becoming the Terminator because the terminator looks human.There is also the fact that nano augmentations are being researched upon and are the next big thing.Imagine 40 years down the line the augments that you so proudly wear will be old fashioned and a sign if shame.With natural looking augments you would not be able to differentiate between mechanical and nano augs (on the surface at least).

Adding natural looking augmentations to the storyline would not change it much too.They could show that natural looking augments,that look and feel exactly like natural limbs exist but are difficult and more expensive to produce,therefore they are much more expensive.So the common man is left looking like a cyborg while the rich get all the benefits of augmentations without becoming freaks.

Zerim
13th Jul 2012, 07:14
I really enjoy hearing your viewpoints because it shows me once again how perfectly Human Revolution managed to stay neutral and accurate in it's writing.


Thank you for agreeing with me.You see most people would not even want to get augmentations unless they really need them.Most people would be like "what am i going to do with artificial hands that give me super strength?".Then there is also the fact that your healthy natural hands would have to be removed and replaced with machines.There is also the fact that this costs a lot of money and you need to take a very expensive drug for the rest of your life.In the real world,if a person has lost his legs he would much rather have natural looking prosthetics rather than freaky robot legs.

See, these are all very valid points that the game itself brings up to the player. Yeah, I agree that it's probably unlikely that augs would ever become a fashion thing, but it IS possible. Human Revolution is somewhat of a "What if?" scenario as much as it's also a prediction of the near future. In it's version of the future, augs HAVE become fashion objects. But all the negative aspects of them that you've listed here are also being presented by the game, for sure. It's not like the game really forces its fashion style onto you, it just places you in this hypothetical world and allows you to form your own opinion. And that's where the beauty of this thread lies: JCPie and myself thought the augs looked beautiful and had more positive sides than negative ones, while you thought they were repulsive and that they had more negatives and would never get them. That is all respectable. This is the power of video games as an artistic medium: All of us were players, placed into the same game, but we all thought and felt different things and in the end, we came to different conclusions.



Our natural bodies are our identity and are very important to us.William Taggart says that by getting augmented,we are losing our "humanity".I don't think we are losing our humanity because humanity is something which transcends the body and flesh,it's something in your mind.However what we are losing is our natural side and as i said in a previous reply most people would never want to become cyborgs.Natural looking augmentations will give us all the superpowers of augmentations and we will never lose our natural side.I gave the example of Robocop and Terminator earlier.Most people would never want to become like Robocop however they would not have much problem in becoming the Terminator because the terminator looks human.There is also the fact that nano augmentations are being researched upon and are the next big thing.Imagine 40 years down the line the augments that you so proudly wear will be old fashioned and a sign if shame.With natural looking augments you would not be able to differentiate between mechanical and nano augs (on the surface at least).
Once again, ALL of these points are actually looked into in the game. There are people who regret their augmentations, you can hear others who get traumatized by the loss of their limbs and you hear them refer to their augmented hands as "Cold, dead, metallic hands!", there are people who are afraid their augmented limbs will get out of control and choke them in their sleep, there are people who lose all their money trying to pay for neuropozyne, and if I'm remembering correctly there was a romance novel somewhere in the game that described how lovers can lose affinity for each other when one of them replaces parts of their body with augments.

And even the thing where your augments will get outdated when nano technology comes along has been done. It's been done 12 years ago, in the first game with Gunther. "We'll be sld at flee markets,. old gray golems for scareing the children. So what about my legss? What about my LIFE?"



Adding natural looking augmentations to the storyline would not change it much too.They could show that natural looking augments,that look and feel exactly like natural limbs exist but are difficult and more expensive to produce,therefore they are much more expensive.So the common man is left looking like a cyborg while the rich get all the benefits of augmentations without becoming freaks.
Yeah, I agree that they could've at least put in a few examples of people who would have opted for natural looking augments. Because I do think that those models would exist. While I still argue that from an artistic standpoint, showing the augs in all their robotic glory makes more sense in terms of creating the atmosphere of the cyber renaissance, it really wouldn't hurt to show that yes, augs could be made discreet as well.

HallucinogenX
13th Jul 2012, 14:21
I really enjoy hearing your viewpoints because it shows me once again how perfectly Human Revolution managed to stay neutral and accurate in it's writing.


I totally agree.The writing of Human Revolution is impeccable.It stays totally neutral.Throughout the game i myself could not make up my mind whether i was pro-aug or anti-aug.When i heard Taggart speak,i was like "He's totally right!" and when i heard Sarif speak or when i read a pro-aug article,i was like "they're right".I could never make up my mind about who i support.




See, these are all very valid points that the game itself brings up to the player. Yeah, I agree that it's probably unlikely that augs would ever become a fashion thing, but it IS possible. Human Revolution is somewhat of a "What if?" scenario as much as it's also a prediction of the near future. In it's version of the future, augs HAVE become fashion objects.


I agree.I was just trying to show that this scenario of augmentations becoming a fashion and status symbol sounds convincing but is quite unrealistic.And i do understand that against the odds,this does happen in the game and that it is sort of a what if scenario.It's just that everything else in the game is very realistic and will probably happen in the future such as the rise of corporations,increasing corruption,increasing terrorism,global conspiracies,the advancement in science.That is what makes the game so special to me,the fact that it's so likely.It kind of scares you that one day this is what the world will be like.So amongst all these,augmentations becoming a fashion symbol is kinda weird.There is also the fact that a lot of problems in the game could be solved by natural looking augs and it was weird to me that nobody was even thinking about it.I'm kinda OCD about these things so this bothered me a little in the game and once i finished it i thought i would discuss it in the forums and see of other thought or felt the same way.



But all the negative aspects of them that you've listed here are also being presented by the game, for sure. It's not like the game really forces its fashion style onto you, it just places you in this hypothetical world and allows you to form your own opinion. And that's where the beauty of this thread lies: JCPie and myself thought the augs looked beautiful and had more positive sides than negative ones, while you thought they were repulsive and that they had more negatives and would never get them. That is all respectable. This is the power of video games as an artistic medium: All of us were players, placed into the same game, but we all thought and felt different things and in the end, we came to different conclusions.



Yes the game never force the fashion style on me,it just places me in this world.I think that the only thing negative about augmentations is that they cannot be implanted.Your natural healthy hands would have to be replaced.Another negative thing is that they turn you into a cyborg.So i am not a purist because i am not against augmentations.If i lived in the world of Deus Ex,i would not get augmentations because i would wait for the technology to advance further.David Sarif talks about technology and biology uniting,i agree with him but i think that this unification will be much more graceful rather than a cyborg like nano augs.Deus Ex is undoubtedly one of the most artistic and beautiful video games ever made there is no denying that.




Once again, ALL of these points are actually looked into in the game. There are people who regret their augmentations, you can hear others who get traumatized by the loss of their limbs and you hear them refer to their augmented hands as "Cold, dead, metallic hands!", there are people who are afraid their augmented limbs will get out of control and choke them in their sleep, there are people who lose all their money trying to pay for neuropozyne, and if I'm remembering correctly there was a romance novel somewhere in the game that described how lovers can lose affinity for each other when one of them replaces parts of their body with augments.

And even the thing where your augments will get outdated when nano technology comes along has been done. It's been done 12 years ago, in the first game with Gunther. "We'll be sld at flee markets,. old gray golems for scareing the children. So what about my legss? What about my LIFE?"


I don't think the game reflected some of my views.Most people in the game were divided into two groups,those who are for augmentations and those who are strictly against them.I don't belong to any of those.I support augmentations fully not just in their current form.The people who regret their augmentations mostly do so because of the financial burden that their augmentations have put them under.And those who refer to their augmented limbs as "cold,dead,metallic hands" are people who lost their limbs in some accident.They didn't want augmentations,it's just that the only other choice for them was to die.

I know that the issue of mechanical augs becoming outdated is touched upon in the first game.But that is the point i'm talking about.This issue along with many others could have been overcome by simply making the augments look natural.This kinda irks me.So many problems could have been solved with natural looking augmentations and the game never even mentions this.



Yeah, I agree that they could've at least put in a few examples of people who would have opted for natural looking augments. Because I do think that those models would exist. While I still argue that from an artistic standpoint, showing the augs in all their robotic glory makes more sense in terms of creating the atmosphere of the cyber renaissance, it really wouldn't hurt to show that yes, augs could be made discreet as well.


Again adding natural looking augmentations would not take away the cyber renaissance feel of the game at all.As i said before the ordinary man can only buy mechanical augments and only the super rich can but the natural looking augs.So the common man and everyone on the street would still have the robotic augs.I'm not accusing or insulting Deus Ex.One thing that we can all agree on is that Deus Ex is one of the best games ever made and it was an absolute delight playing it.

Itkovian
13th Jul 2012, 19:13
I'm with JCPie on this one... the fact that certain technologies are advanced does not imply that others - such as the development of augments with skin tissue coverings - much necessarily be as advanced.

The fact of the matter is, in DXHR that is not the case. We do see augmentations that are meant to look more natural (as per JCPie's screenshot), and those show clearly that the technology has not progressed to the point where a cybernetic limb looks perfectly like a normal one.

There's Nyasha's as well, that looks very natural, but still has features that shows it is an artificial limb.

I agree that if the technology allowed it, odds are such "hidden" limbs would be quite popular... but quite frankly that possibly was discounted in the FIRST Deus Ex.

DX could just as easily made Mech augmentations look natural, but chose not to for story and artistic reason. This established a precedent that DXHR (correctly) chose not to contradict. So, mech augs are visible, and the technology to make fully human looking mech augs does not exist.

You could claim that such a situation is preposterous, but saying that biomedical tech should make it possible is simply an assumption on your part. It is like someone from 60 years ago exclaiming it makes no sense that we have technology as advanced as iPhones (which is straight out of science-fiction, after all), and yet still don't have AI.

Thank you.

Itkovian

HallucinogenX
13th Jul 2012, 20:08
I'm with JCPie on this one... the fact that certain technologies are advanced does not imply that others - such as the development of augments with skin tissue coverings - much necessarily be as advanced.

The fact of the matter is, in DXHR that is not the case. We do see augmentations that are meant to look more natural (as per JCPie's screenshot), and those show clearly that the technology has not progressed to the point where a cybernetic limb looks perfectly like a normal one.

There's Nyasha's as well, that looks very natural, but still has features that shows it is an artificial limb.

I agree that if the technology allowed it, odds are such "hidden" limbs would be quite popular... but quite frankly that possibly was discounted in the FIRST Deus Ex.

DX could just as easily made Mech augmentations look natural, but chose not to for story and artistic reason. This established a precedent that DXHR (correctly) chose not to contradict. So, mech augs are visible, and the technology to make fully human looking mech augs does not exist.

You could claim that such a situation is preposterous, but saying that biomedical tech should make it possible is simply an assumption on your part. It is like someone from 60 years ago exclaiming it makes no sense that we have technology as advanced as iPhones (which is straight out of science-fiction, after all), and yet still don't have AI.

Thank you.

Itkovian


I do agree with you.I was just trying to show that this scenario is not very realistic and that in the real world people would want augmentations to look natural.That's it.I realize that this does not happen in the game but to me it makes an otherwise very realistic game,a little bit unrealistic.

And as i've said before with stem cells it is possible to duplicate skin cells.And it does not even have to be skin cell,it could be a synthetic polymer that just resembles skin.This is not totally impossible with current technology so it is obvious that it would be easy in a very advanced future.Also it is science fiction and frankly anything is possible in science fiction.