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SDF121
16th Jun 2012, 20:57
I don't know if anyone here has been following the development of Dishonored but it looks very promising. It looks like Harvey Smith may very well atone for his work on Deus Ex Invisible War with Dishonored. Anyways, Dishonored is an immersive sim with parkour elements and an excellent melee system. Everything, including lethal takedowns, is in the first person perspective and you can also lean!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzVCk4pVJZk

Is anyone else excited for this upcoming release? Do you think Eidos Montreal will take notes?

JCpies
16th Jun 2012, 21:23
They said that Syndicate was what Human Revolution should have been. Look what happened to that.

I do think Dishonored will be an amazing game however. Also, my favourite feature of Invisible War shall be in it.
I'm excited.

68_pie
16th Jun 2012, 22:22
I don't know if anyone here has been following the development of Dishonored but it looks very promising. It looks like Harvey Smith may very well atone for his work on Deus Ex Invisible War with Dishonored. Anyways, Dishonored is an immersive sim with parkour elements and an excellent melee system. Everything, including lethal takedowns, is in the first person perspective and you can also lean!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzVCk4pVJZk

Is anyone else excited for this upcoming release? Do you think Eidos Montreal will take notes?

If you check the "Other Games" thread I think you'll find that everyone is excited about it.

m G h m u o s
16th Jun 2012, 23:48
Yes, we were all asking for a fish possession aug lol.

Dishonored looks awesome and DXHR could have really used the more open map design they took (judging from E3 demo footage, opening a window shutter and then jumping ontop of it? awesome~) but the very nature of the abilities in Dishonored (in which the flexibility and creativity you can give the player) seems too much of a stretch imo. It looks really really easy too, you recharge your energy (forgot the word they use, think it starts with 'a'?) really fast especially for teleporting. DXHR had some nice moments in the conversation systems and so on but it'll come down to playing Dishonored on release of course.

Looks fun as heck :D

SDF121
17th Jun 2012, 00:29
I was thinking of Dishonored serving as an example for the next Deus Ex in terms of mechanics. In other words, an immersive sim with an open level design. I'm also glad to see that Dishonored will maintain the first person perspective while incorporating a few parkour elements here and there... not to mention that we once again lean!


It looks really really easy too, you recharge your energy (forgot the word they use, think it starts with 'a'?) really fast especially for teleporting.

Keep in mind that the E3 stage demo was set up so the player had every ability unlocked (in an early mission designed as if you only a few of these) and the stage demo was modded so that the player had infinite energy. From what I've read from other publications, the game is in fact very hard and you will die often and quickly. I should also note that you will not be able to unlock/upgrade every ability in the game so you will not be the overpowered juggernaut with infinite energy as seen in the stage demo.

Romeo
17th Jun 2012, 05:04
I was thinking of Dishonored serving as an example for the next Deus Ex in terms of mechanics. In other words, an immersive sim with an open level design. I'm also glad to see that Dishonored will maintain the first person perspective while incorporating a few parkour elements here and there... not to mention that we once again lean!



Keep in mind that the E3 stage demo was set up so the player had every ability unlocked (in an early mission designed as if you only a few of these) and the stage demo was modded so that the player had infinite energy. From what I've read from other publications, the game is in fact very hard and you will die often and quickly. I should also note that you will not be able to unlock/upgrade every ability in the game so you will not be the overpowered juggernaut with infinite energy as seen in the stage demo.
I hope so, because the E3 Live Demos looked waaaay too easy. I'll be curious to see how health and abilities are handled. Skyrim before release looked awesome to me too, but then the game came out and I absolutely despised it.

I'm surprised no ones commented on the world of Dishonored yet. That to me looks like one of the coolest aspects of the game. I love how it looks so far.

Jerion
17th Jun 2012, 05:09
[QUOTE=JCpie;1766817]They said that Syndicate was wh

JCpies
17th Jun 2012, 08:40
[QUOTE=JCpie;1766817]They said that Syndicate was wh

Er,I think this quote messed up a bit Jerion.

Kodaemon
17th Jun 2012, 08:54
I hope so, because the E3 Live Demos looked waaaay too easy.


I think it's OK to clarify something about those videos, which many of you have already figured out, since it's clarified elsewhere. The character build he's playing with is a maxed-out cheat for the demo. In a real playthrough if you examine every square inch of the game and find every rune, every upgrade, every coin, you might have 3/4ths of it by the final map. During this level in the real game, you're just going to have a tiny portion of it.

The point though is that the player could potentially have any aspect of this build during this level.

By the way, the system for using powers is similar to HR: they require mana, only a small portion of which regenerates, and you have to use consumables to regenerate the rest.

SDF121
17th Jun 2012, 14:28
Here are two articles with some additional information on Dishonored.

http://kotaku.com/5905231/18-things-about-dishonored-you-should-know

http://kotaku.com/5917362/ten-more-things-about-dishonored-you-should-know

m G h m u o s
17th Jun 2012, 15:17
Keep in mind that the E3 stage demo was set up so the player had every ability unlocked (in an early mission designed as if you only a few of these) and the stage demo was modded so that the player had infinite energy. From what I've read from other publications, the game is in fact very hard and you will die often and quickly. I should also note that you will not be able to unlock/upgrade every ability in the game so you will not be the overpowered juggernaut with infinite energy as seen in the stage demo.
Ohh okiedokie. I thought the mana regen was just a little too quick lol

Really can't wait see how flexible some of the abilities are. Imagine using that wind power to blow a dude off a balcony, then jump off with him, possess him mid-air and then leave his body before he hits the ground and reset your fall damage distance lol

SDF121
17th Jun 2012, 15:52
I also remember reading about someone either shooting darts or throwing a projectile and then freezing time and using the suspended object as a temporary platform.

edit: I believe that the matter was discussed in this podcast.
http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1370516-new-dishonored-podcast/

Shralla
17th Jun 2012, 16:35
They said that Syndicate was what Human Revolution should have been.

I really don't think that anybody anywhere said that at all.


and the stage demo was modded so that the player had infinite energy.

No it wasn't. Energy worked exactly like it will in the real game. The first quarter of your bar regenerates so you can pretty much always use Blink and Dark Vision (which I wish you couldn't always use), and anything more will require you to use items to get enough mana for.

What was obviously modded and I can't believe nobody was paying any attention to it at all was the health. Literally every time his health gets low (which happens like a dozen times in the violent playthrough), it just magically regenerates. He should have died at least eight times.

m G h m u o s
17th Jun 2012, 20:26
I also remember reading about someone either shooting darts or throwing a projectile and then freezing time and using the suspended object as a temporary platform.
I think I heard that on the dishonored tumblr podcast? No, it was probably some E3 coverage. But yeah, they talk about only being able to stand on it for a split second because whatever you're in contact with becomes "unfrozen" right?


What was obviously modded and I can't believe nobody was paying any attention to it at all was the health. Literally every time his health gets low (which happens like a dozen times in the violent playthrough), it just magically regenerates. He should have died at least eight times.
Well health is understandable, I think they did that for a lot of the E3 demos. People were noticing some weird things with the AC3 frontier gameplay. Its just to show off more stuff in the short amount of time they have really.

JCpies
17th Jun 2012, 20:42
I really don't think that anybody anywhere said that at all.

Ahem. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=122385&highlight=Syndicate)

Probably a bit of a minority though, considering most here would know Syndicate as its original format and how much it changed.

nomotog
17th Jun 2012, 21:57
Yes we have been following dishonored. It looks like we are getting another nice game. We can't be sure till after we play it. It might end up lacking some of the elements that it needs.

Ashpolt
17th Jun 2012, 22:04
Ahem. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=122385&highlight=Syndicate)

Oh man, I don't think I'd ever seen that thread before, thanks for posting it! It's great for showing how easily people on this forum (like much of the rest of the internet, to be fair) will get excited over utter, utter tat.

Pinky_Powers
18th Jun 2012, 06:06
Oh man, I don't think I'd ever seen that thread before, thanks for posting it! It's great for showing how easily people on this forum (like much of the rest of the internet, to be fair) will get excited over utter, utter tat.

I was getting excited about it for a little bit, until it became apparent just how shooter-y it was going to be. And that was a good few months before release. I never, however, thought it was going to be very much like Deus Ex. Some elements, sure, but none of the most important philosophies essential to Deus Ex.

That fellow was foolish, plain and simple.

sonicsidewinder
18th Jun 2012, 17:26
Ahem. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=122385&highlight=Syndicate)

Probably a bit of a minority though, considering most here would know Syndicate as its original format and how much it changed.

Did you just erm...'pwn' Mr Shralla?

Shralla
18th Jun 2012, 18:22
Did you just erm...'pwn' Mr Shralla?

That thread was like 80% people saying it sucked, so I don't think so.

JCpies
18th Jun 2012, 18:34
It's interesting that he said "I really don't think that...", he was acknowledging that he only thought nobody had stated that Syndicate was what HR should have been, despite firmly believing that nobody did. If you understand.

Had he made it a plain statement the he would have been "pwnt", since I would have proved it wrong.

sonicsidewinder
18th Jun 2012, 18:36
Clever word use.

BigBoss
19th Jun 2012, 05:29
syndicate was really bad

SDF121
19th Jun 2012, 17:06
No it wasn't. Energy worked exactly like it will in the real game. The first quarter of your bar regenerates so you can pretty much always use Blink and Dark Vision (which I wish you couldn't always use), and anything more will require you to use items to get enough mana for.

I thought I read somewhere that they had modified the rate of energy regeneration for the demo. Perhaps I was mistaken. I've also heard that if you were to blink one too many times in rapid succession that you would deplete your energy and that it would take a significantly longer amount of time for it to recharge your first quarter of energy. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

KingNL
30th Jun 2012, 11:58
It's looking to be a good game but I honestly cannot see how it is going to be better than DXHR, it looks way too arcadey and the AI seems dumb as hell

SDF121
30th Jun 2012, 16:13
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/06/28/dishonored-notices-how-murdery-you-are/

Pinky_Powers
30th Jun 2012, 18:02
It's looking to be a good game but I honestly cannot see how it is going to be better than DXHR, it looks way too arcadey and the AI seems dumb as hell

I don't know about any of that, but the mere fact Dishonored has no social gameplay means it'll never truly compete in my eyes.

I'm excited for it, don't get me wrong. But any game that builds an interesting world and doesn't let you interact with its citizens on a social level I see as a major cop-out. When I see folk walking around, I want to be able to talk to them, goddamnit!

KingNL
30th Jun 2012, 20:19
I don't know about any of that, but the mere fact Dishonored has no social gameplay means it'll never truly compete in my eyes.

I'm excited for it, don't get me wrong. But any game that builds an interesting world and doesn't let you interact with its citizens on a social level I see as a major cop-out. When I see folk walking around, I want to be able to talk to them, goddamnit!

Me too and I hate the fact that most modern games don't allow that...

Jerion
30th Jun 2012, 21:29
I don't know about any of that, but the mere fact Dishonored has no social gameplay means it'll never truly compete in my eyes.

I'm excited for it, don't get me wrong. But any game that builds an interesting world and doesn't let you interact with its citizens on a social level I see as a major cop-out. When I see folk walking around, I want to be able to talk to them, goddamnit!

Being able to just talk to random people has always helped to ground me in a locale. It did that in DX1&3 (never got too far into IWar, so leaving it out), it did that in all three Mass Effects. Emergent stealth and combat? All for that. I just...a lack of social gameplay makes the world seem all that further away from my grasp.

SDF121
30th Jun 2012, 21:46
I had assumed that you would be able to speak to certain characters throughout the game. For example, they've already said that you can take out the Pendleton Twins by working out a deal with another crime boss if you find him and complete a series of tasks for him. All we've seen thus far are segments from a particular mission where everyone present is hostile towards your character.

Can anyone confirm/deny if there is any social aspect to Dishonored? If not, then that will be somewhat disappointing.

Pinky_Powers
1st Jul 2012, 00:33
I had assumed that you would be able to speak to certain characters throughout the game. For example, they've already said that you can take out the Pendleton Twins by working out a deal with another crime boss if you find him and complete a series of tasks for him. All we've seen thus far are segments from a particular mission where everyone present is hostile towards your character.

Can anyone confirm/deny if there is any social aspect to Dishonored? If not, then that will be somewhat disappointing.

I've posted some on the Dishonored forums, and last I heard, there would not be anything that could really be called social. Some folk will speak at you in order to give missions and such, but you won't be able to prompt random conversation.

Unless they've changed their mind in recent months. Maybe my impassioned cries have moved their heart. :D

m G h m u o s
1st Jul 2012, 00:35
Well we've only seen mission stuff so far. I know theres a hub where you have allies who help you. I'll be damned surprised if you can't talk to any NPCs whatsoever, but not so much if you can't talk to neutral NPCs you find in the mission areas, like the whores in that gameplay vid.

Tverdyj
1st Jul 2012, 01:11
I've posted some on the Dishonored forums, and last I heard, there would not be anything that could really be called social. Some folk will speak at you in order to give missions and such, but you won't be able to prompt random conversation.

Unless they've changed their mind in recent months. Maybe my impassioned cries have moved their heart. :D

point to remember--you're playing a Dishonored, (and wanted man), who is accused of assassinating a (from what I gather) universally beloved empress, whom you were supposed to be protecting. Oh, and you wear a skull mask. I can see how that may make conversing with randoms somewhat difficult.

Pinky_Powers
1st Jul 2012, 01:33
point to remember--you're playing a Dishonored, (and wanted man), who is accused of assassinating a (from what I gather) universally beloved empress, whom you were supposed to be protecting. Oh, and you wear a skull mask. I can see how that may make conversing with randoms somewhat difficult.

You can construct a scenario to excuse anything. Doesn't mean the game wouldn't be much better if you played as an actual person who was connected to the world in a broader, more realistic way. Playing as a faceless, voiceless wraith who cannot participate in the world on any social level has me feeling dissatisfied right out the gate. That sort of impenetrable isolation is not a pleasant way to experience a new, populated environment.

Shralla
1st Jul 2012, 02:23
I like social gameplay as much as the next guy, but I disagree that any game with a rich world needs to have it. The structure of the story seems as thought it's going in a more Half-Life direction, which I don't have a problem with. I enjoy the way the story is told through chance encounters and the environment moreso than dialogue.

Pinky_Powers
1st Jul 2012, 09:23
I like social gameplay as much as the next guy, but I disagree that any game with a rich world needs to have it. The structure of the story seems as thought it's going in a more Half-Life direction, which I don't have a problem with. I enjoy the way the story is told through chance encounters and the environment moreso than dialogue.

In Half-Life you can walk up to anyone and encourage them to talk directly to you. In Half-Life2 the whole world comes to know you as the famous Gordon Freeman, and they all speak to you on a personal level, making the player feel a powerful connection to the world.

KingNL
1st Jul 2012, 16:28
I've posted some on the Dishonored forums, and last I heard, there would not be anything that could really be called social. Some folk will speak at you in order to give missions and such, but you won't be able to prompt random conversation.

Unless they've changed their mind in recent months. Maybe my impassioned cries have moved their heart. :D

So disappointed by this..

Ashpolt
1st Jul 2012, 16:51
So disappointed by this..

Yeah, it's a shame. But to be honest, the meat of the actual gameplay looks so good that I can overlook the lack of social options.

Pinky_Powers
1st Jul 2012, 18:25
Yeah, it's a shame. But to be honest, the meat of the actual gameplay looks so good that I can overlook the lack of social options.

This.

The stealth and infiltration looks king-hell awesome!

Shralla
1st Jul 2012, 23:38
In Half-Life you can walk up to anyone and encourage them to talk directly to you. In Half-Life2 the whole world comes to know you as the famous Gordon Freeman, and they all speak to you on a personal level, making the player feel a powerful connection to the world.

Anyone that isn't hostile, sure. But that's exactly how it's going to work in Dishonored. It's not like Corvo is some great unknown. People will know he escaped from prison, and some of those people will put two and two together in regards to the vengeful night prowler. Aside from that, we know he's going to have allies helping him out and that he's going to be able to get side missions from people, who will presumably know who he is as well.

And also the developers have said

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1377329-news-tidbits/page__st__210__p__21110471#entry21110471


"Yes the HUB is a real place in which you can visit and talk with NPCs, some of them give you side quests. You might also find some cool stuff story-related or gameplay-related if you take the time to explore a bit!"

And then there's this, in which he talks about how you sometimes have an option to remove the mask and communicate with people.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUIIfYmoDiA#t=3m0s

Pinky_Powers
2nd Jul 2012, 01:33
That's cool. They didn't have any of that information last time I visited their forums. I knew about the HUB, though it was previously described as little more than a place to pick up your mission intel.

SDF121
2nd Jul 2012, 05:52
http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/6/27/3115822/arkane-dishonored-bethesda-origin-crossing-deus-ex-arx-fatalis

Pinky_Powers
2nd Jul 2012, 12:20
http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/6/27/3115822/arkane-dishonored-bethesda-origin-crossing-deus-ex-arx-fatalis

Excellent read! Thanks for posting! :thumb:

JCpies
2nd Jul 2012, 16:21
I want to play Technosaur :'(

Jerion
3rd Jul 2012, 03:11
I want to play Technosaur :'(

Are you kidding? I want to play the Crossing.

Pinky_Powers
3rd Jul 2012, 07:47
Are you kidding? I want to play the Crossing.

Dinosaurs with Rocket Launchers > No Dinosaurs with Rocket Launchers

JCpies
3rd Jul 2012, 15:33
That's why I'm not buying Battlefield 3. The dinosaur mode was a hoax.

SDF121
16th Jul 2012, 17:00
Hooray for customizable UI's!

http://www.bethblog.com/2012/07/13/a-look-at-dishonoreds-many-ui-options/#more-19346

Ashpolt
16th Jul 2012, 18:41
Dinosaurs with Rocket Launchers > No Dinosaurs with Rocket Launchers

The truest post ever made on this or any other forum.

VectorM
19th Jul 2012, 18:26
They said that Syndicate was what Human Revolution should have been.


And who exactly was saying that, ever? I did hear A LOT of (stupid) people say that Syndicate ripped off DX:HR, though.

And I am definitely looking forward to this, but I remain highly skeptical. This isn't the first time Adam Smith has impressed people with his pre-release hype. The stuff he was talking about prior to IW and that ****ty FPS he worked on sounded pretty awesome as well.

SDF121
19th Jul 2012, 20:34
This isn't the first time Adam Smith has impressed people with his pre-release hype.

Adam Smith...? Surely you meant Harvey Smith?

Reven
19th Jul 2012, 21:08
Well, if Harvey Smith's pre-release hype is good enough it may sell enough to impress Adam Smith.

JCpies
20th Jul 2012, 08:15
Adam Smith...

Harvey Jensen...




And who exactly was saying that, ever? I did hear A LOT of (stupid) people say that Syndicate ripped off DX:HR, though.

There was a thread about it on here. I already posted the link.

VectorM
22nd Jul 2012, 10:13
Adam Smith...? Surely you meant Harvey Smith?

Ups. Yeah, I meant Harvey.

VectorM
22nd Jul 2012, 21:56
There was a thread about it on here. I already posted the link.

So one fool, who thinks Syndicate will be "What HR was supposed to be like", based on essentially nothing but his own ignorance, is somehow comparable to the Dishonored situation? People say that about Dishonored, because it is actually designed in a very similar fashion. The new syndicate resembled HR only in it's visuals and some very basic story tropes, and we knew that before the game was even out.

SoulBlade
22nd Jul 2012, 21:57
On another note, Arkane Studio's other games are excellent - I just tried Dark Messiah and it's incredible!

sonicsidewinder
22nd Jul 2012, 22:59
On another note, Arkane Studio's other games are excellent - I just tried Dark Messiah and it's incredible!

I'm playing trhough Arx Fatalis then i'll be onto that.

Arx is...well. It's only bugged on me like 3 times...

Reven
22nd Jul 2012, 23:07
Arx Fatalis has SOOO many hidden doors i never found out how to open. And most of them were in the castle.

nomotog
23rd Jul 2012, 02:27
So one fool, who thinks Syndicate will be "What HR was supposed to be like", based on essentially nothing but his own ignorance, is somehow comparable to the Dishonored situation? People say that about Dishonored, because it is actually designed in a very similar fashion. The new syndicate resembled HR only in it's visuals and some very basic story tropes, and we knew that before the game was even out.

It's meant to show you that you can't judge a game by the trailer. Same goes for dishonored. Sure it might look like it shares a lot with DX, but it's best not to make assumptions.

SDF121
23rd Jul 2012, 06:26
It's meant to show you that you can't judge a game by the trailer. Same goes for dishonored. Sure it might look like it shares a lot with DX, but it's best not to make assumptions.

I'm not sure if this is really an 'assumption' seeing as Arkane is comprised of individuals who have actually worked on System Shock, Thief, and Deus Ex.

On another note, these articles only reinforce my opinion that Dishonored will be an excellent game that the next Deus Ex certainly could learn from.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/07/20/dishonored-steath-preview/

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/07/05/dishonored-hands-on-rewired-death-fields-whale-bombs-and-possessed-piranhas/

Shralla
23rd Jul 2012, 21:19
Playing Dark Messiah has given me the utmost confidence in Dishonored. Literally every action game should be more like Dark Messiah in terms of level design and world interactivity. Things just feel "right" in that game. When you see props, and you say to yourself "If this were an action movie, I would be able to do X," it turns out you can absolutely do X. Physics plays such a huge part in it, and having come out some six years ago, it really makes me realize just how far the industry HASN'T gone in those six years. Half-Life 2 came out and was obviously designed to show people that physics was an important area of the future of gaming, and then everybody else literally ignored it and just kept pumping out graphics.

Ashbery76
23rd Jul 2012, 21:26
I think the game looks pretty easy from seeing the videios.The lighting jump power you get at the start of the game is the issue.

I am looking foward to it.

nomotog
23rd Jul 2012, 21:34
One thing that worries me about dishonored is city hubs or more the lack of city hubs. HR didn't really feel like DX till you get to run around Detroit. Talking to people, hacking their laptops, reading their TV show ideas. Dishonored looks like it will be solid on gameplay, but it can very easily fall flat in other places.

sonicsidewinder
23rd Jul 2012, 22:00
Playing Dark Messiah has given me the utmost confidence in Dishonored.

I'm going on an Arkane spree. Playing Arx Fatalis now, then i'll be onto that.


Dishonored looks like it will be solid on gameplay, but it can very easily fall flat in other places.

Here's hoping it doesn't. I'm assuming the story etc will be told through intermission cutscenes for each mission, like thief. That will give you basic outlines. But of course you'll expand your insight, being in the right place at the right time to eavesdrop, finding the right logbook or diary note that may not be easily found. etc

Shralla
23rd Jul 2012, 23:47
Dishonored looks like it will be solid on gameplay, but it can very easily fall flat in other places.

Who cares? We literally have eight billion games shoving all sorts of social interaction down our throats. I don't remember anybody complaining that you didn't get to talk to people in Hitman, or Half-Life. What we don't have a billion of are games with fantastic gameplay that encourages emergent strategies. I don't see how it can "fall flat" in places that it's not even putting emphasis on. I would much rather have the story revealed through overhearing people in the world and seeing things in the world itself.

Senka
24th Jul 2012, 02:11
Dark Messiah is quite a good game, excellent excellent combat, I can't get it working properly with my video card on win7 though (ati 4870) which is a huge shame, been wanting to replay it for ages. If the combat in Dishonored is as good I'll be happy. Not liking how close Corvo seems to hold his hands to his face though.

Shralla
24th Jul 2012, 02:20
I just couldn't believe when I started playing it. The level of interactivity in today's video games really is pathetic, and that game single-handedly made me see it.

Senka
24th Jul 2012, 03:58
I doubt it could be done, but if you could make a combat system with the fluidity, feedback and grit of DM with the complexity of the combat in Mount&Blade, that would be amazing. I wouldn't say DM is super complex / involving game like TW2, but it's a pretty kickass journey. It has a pretty good example of 'optional' objectives even in a fairly linear game.. don't want to spoil anything though. Also, Xana <3

Damn, now I really want to play it again.

Pinky_Powers
24th Jul 2012, 04:02
I just couldn't believe when I started playing it. The level of interactivity in today's video games really is pathetic, and that game single-handedly made me see it.

That's what TES and the new Fallout games do for me. You can manhandle EVERYTHING. Crysis had this too, though it wasn't as useful. When compared to these games, the modern market is a joke.

SDF121
24th Jul 2012, 04:57
I think the game looks pretty easy from seeing the videios.The lighting jump power you get at the start of the game is the issue.

Keep in mind that if you choose to blink your way through an entire level that you will end up missing many of the games secrets along with the hidden runes to upgrade your skills and abilities. If anything, blinking through every level will end up making the game more difficult in the long run.


One thing that worries me about dishonored is city hubs or more the lack of city hubs.

From what I understand, there will be a hub (or a series of hubs) in the game where you will meet with characters to acquire items as well as to receive additional missions/objectives. However, keep in mind that you are a wanted man so its not like you can go around and attempt to strike up a conversation with just anyone without raising any alarm.

Shralla
24th Jul 2012, 08:52
That's what TES and the new Fallout games do for me. You can manhandle EVERYTHING.

I guess. It doesn't really have the meaningful impact or integration into the environment that Dark Messiah has though. Elder Scrolls would be better if the combat was more like Dark Messiah.

Pinky_Powers
24th Jul 2012, 17:20
I guess. It doesn't really have the meaningful impact or integration into the environment that Dark Messiah has though. Elder Scrolls would be better if the combat was more like Dark Messiah.

I have no doubt. The combat in The Elder Scrolls has always sucked.

Shralla
24th Jul 2012, 18:47
Honestly when Bethesda acquired Arkane I was hoping they were using them to develop the combat for Skyrim. I'm much happier with this result, however. Both of the head guys at Arkane now have been dying to make the game they wanted for a long time now, and they're finally getting that chance.

AlexOfSpades
26th Jul 2012, 01:11
Speaking about Harvey Smith, he's together with Raphael Colantonio doing an "Ask Me Anything" over Reddit.

May be worth checking it out

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/x58ul/weare_harvey_and_raphael_cocreative_directors_of/

SDF121
26th Jul 2012, 20:24
RPS: Dishonored “Daring Escapes” Trailer Is Blinking Good
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/07/26/dishonored-daring-escapes-trailer-is-blinking-good/

Ashbery76
2nd Jan 2013, 22:55
Having played both games I think DE:HR was the better game in the end.The main reason I think was the story,characters and setting is just a lot more interesting in DE:HR.Dishonored tried hard to make a immersive setting but it did not work for me as I felt no desire to finish it.The game lost steam very fast after the twist in my view.I played DE:HR non stop with no burnout.

The third person stealth view is better to when compared to the phoney learning view in Dishonored too.

68_pie
2nd Jan 2013, 23:00
The third person stealth view is easier to when compared to the phoney learning view in Dishonored too.

Fixed it for you.

Ashbery76
2nd Jan 2013, 23:13
Fixed it for you.

Actually what I did not mention is Dishonored is a very,very easy game too, no matter what build you choose.

El_Bel
2nd Jan 2013, 23:57
I love Dishonored and hate Human Revolution (after the FEMA camp, before this it was an excelent deus ex game).

But Dishonored while it had superior gameplay and story story, it played it safe. It's dialog system was abysmal, you can't interact with anyone. It's meaning was non-existant (Not that HR was any better, they didn't say anything about augmentations. They just said that it was a big issue, and that we should be concerned, but i didn't feel anything. See Errant Signal : Deus ex human revolution for a more complete analysis.) So HR, while inferior in almost any way, is still a better Deus Ex game.

But, i think that if the old Deus Ex team was put back together, they could make again an excelent Deus Ex game. Warren Spector, Harvey "Witchboy" Smith, Sheldon Paccoti, Chris Todd, Jay Lee, Monte Martinez are just way better game makers then the designers of Eidos Montreal.

nomotog
3rd Jan 2013, 03:13
Having played both games I think DE:HR was the better game in the end.The main reason I think was the story,characters and setting is just a lot more interesting in DE:HR.Dishonored tried hard to make a immersive setting but it did not work for me as I felt no desire to finish it.The game lost steam very fast after the twist in my view.I played DE:HR non stop with no burnout.

The third person stealth view is better to when compared to the phoney learning view in Dishonored too.

The full first person was done admirably, but it was in the first level that I was reminded why they switched it in HR. It wasn't a problem after you get blink though. The level design made blink stealth quite workable. The levels are very vertical, so it gives you a completely different feel then HR mostly flat levels. I think disnored did a nice job with the gameplay, but kind of dropped the ball when it came to some of the other stuff. It also really failed at nonlethal gameplay. Playing nonlethal just kind of feels like a punishment rather then a challenge.

singularity
3rd Jan 2013, 08:42
Dishonored was a let down in many ways for me. The game was incredibly easy, in every way, with every play style. Stealth wasn't tense, as I knew that I could kill everything with my eyes closed at any time if I was discovered. Not that it mattered as powers like Blink made even the stealth something of a bore.

The story lost steam fast, the characters lacked depth (even where it would have been easy to add), and even though the setting was excellent, it always felt empty and like there was never much to do there... it felt like I was playing a game, not exploring a town.

HR offered greater risks with better rewards for stealth, challenging gunfights for those that chose to partake, characters with much more detail and subtle nuances, and environments that were just as interesting as Dishonored, while feeling much more real, alive and more fun to explore. Add a story that incorporates current world problems that still has me talking with friends over the water cooler, and I think DXHR wins in spades. All Dishonored gets is a "dude, totally stabbed two guys while falling from the roof a building... so cool" . If that's what you wants then Far Cry 3 even managed to beat Dishonored in that category (while offering, yet again, better characters and a better story).

If it wasn't for Resident Evil 6 and Hitman Absolution, Dishonored would have been an easy contender for disappointment of the year for me.

Pinky_Powers
3rd Jan 2013, 23:53
Dishonored was a let down in many ways for me. The game was incredibly easy, in every way, with every play style. Stealth wasn't tense, as I knew that I could kill everything with my eyes closed at any time if I was discovered. Not that it mattered as powers like Blink made even the stealth something of a bore.

The story lost steam fast, the characters lacked depth (even where it would have been easy to add), and even though the setting was excellent, it always felt empty and like there was never much to do there... it felt like I was playing a game, not exploring a town.

HR offered greater risks with better rewards for stealth, challenging gunfights for those that chose to partake, characters with much more detail and subtle nuances, and environments that were just as interesting as Dishonored, while feeling much more real, alive and more fun to explore. Add a story that incorporates current world problems that still has me talking with friends over the water cooler, and I think DXHR wins in spades. All Dishonored gets is a "dude, totally stabbed two guys while falling from the roof a building... so cool" . If that's what you wants then Far Cry 3 even managed to beat Dishonored in that category (while offering, yet again, better characters and a better story).

If it wasn't for Resident Evil 6 and Hitman Absolution, Dishonored would have been an easy contender for disappointment of the year for me.

I agree with most everything you said there, except your concluding sentiment. I found Dishonored to be remarkable and charming and terribly fun in despite of all its many flaws.

I will long crave hereafter for the freedom of movement I felt in Dishonored. Crysis 2 did a good job of this as well, though its environments were not as intricate. I expect Crysis 3 to continue this tradition.

Nothing on the horizon, unfortunately, will give me the depth of architecture and infiltration, combined with this sense of movement and navigation I found in Dishonored.

Also, the Heart did a great job adding considerable potency to the characters and places. The story, however, was without any such saving graces. It was simply and utterly weak.

HERESY
6th Jan 2013, 18:54
I finally beat Dishonored yesterday morning (a tight schedule forced me to chip at it) and I found it to be a great experience. The story was weak, I saw all the twists coming and the textures leave much to be desired. One day I'll pick it back up and go on a kill spree, so I can see the different ending (don't spoil it) but for now it's XCOM time. Also, I think Dishonored handled the 'targets' better than HR's boss fights. When comparing the two, since they are both so good and engaging in their own way, I thinks it's best to look at each game to see if it does/plays as it was designed to.

Pinky_Powers
6th Jan 2013, 20:45
Also, I think Dishonored handled the 'targets' better than HR's boss fights.

Way way WAY better. But then, HR's boss fights are horrendous, so... of course.

KenTWOu
13th Jan 2013, 14:20
...I think DXHR wins in spades. All Dishonored gets is a "dude, totally stabbed two guys while falling from the roof a building... so cool" . If that's what you wants then Far Cry 3 even managed to beat Dishonored in that category (while offering, yet again, better characters and a better story).
I couldn't agree more :) Dishonored has so many problems (dialogues, characters, voice over, story, balance, stealth, AI, low-chaos narrative, third act, duration, soundtrack) that DXHR wins easily.

Shralla
13th Jan 2013, 20:25
Because as we all know, DX is completely free from all of those problems

And I really don't see how half of those are even "problems." Voice over? Dialogues? Characters? Story? All that is so vague it seems like you're desperately trying to **** on the game and you're just throwing out a bunch of game-related words and hoping one of them sticks. And lol AI, really? The AI in Dishonored was twice as interesting as the AI in Human Revolution.

Low-chaos narrative? Do tell what's the issue here? Duration? Don't tell me you're one of those people complaining that the game was too short. Give me a break.

Your post reads like "EVERYTHING IN DISHONORED IS BAD AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE MUCH BETTER AND EVERYTHING IN DEUS EX WAS DONE BETTER" only no, it wasn't. On either account.

HERESY
13th Jan 2013, 20:40
Do I agree with Shralla? Indeed, I believe so.

CyberP
13th Jan 2013, 20:58
I was pretty disappointed by Dishonored. Having played Arx fatalis a good few times I was expecting big things from Arkane (Arx Fatalis is almost as good as Deus Ex).
Release day came, I was impressed at first, but not long into the game did the lack of depth (compared to the classics) start to piss me off.
They give you the option to play combat playstyle AND upgrade your guns, but then only give you two guns!? Trolling right?
A heart that reveals all the secret areas with the important items? Right, now exploration is unrewarding (because the heart already told you where the important stuff was) and finding a secret area... well, you didn't find it.
And then there is the ******* Batman vision, granted, its not as bad as in Batman (which is a joke of a game), but it is still very OP in Dish. Same goes for most of the other powers.
Then the level design. Brilliant, beautiful, wide open! ....buuut the game never strays from the city. All the best games have varied level design and settings.
And yes, the game is too short. Also has bad design (not as a whole), and is lacking depth overall, much like the other new successors to the classics; DX:IW & Bioshock.

It had it's pros but I really dont feel like pointing the worthwhile ones out, as I still feel pretty let down by Arkane.
Human Revolution had it's flaws but the Studio had it's excuses- New to RPGs, and a newly formed studio. Bunch of noobs :)

If you go and play Arx Fatalis, which will kick your ass with it's deep gameplay, no hand holding, scary atmosphere and testing puzzles, it will become painfully obvious that Dishonored's gameplay is simple and easy on purpose (oh, like the other 98% of modern games then).

Human Revolution is not considered one of the classics by me, but it is the better game out of the new generation of Looking Glass styled games, except for Fallout: New Vegas, which has a touch of LGS (and everything else PC RPG) in it, and is a masterpiece, even vanilla. Well Iv'e only played it vanilla, on xbox.

HERESY
13th Jan 2013, 22:09
They give you the option to play combat playstyle AND upgrade your guns, but then only give you two guns!? Trolling right?

So what if you only have two guns to upgrade? Go play a SHOOTER if you want to upgrade your guns. If not, upgrade your crossbow, your grenades, the spring traps, etc.



A heart that reveals all the secret areas with the important items? Right, now exploration is unrewarding (because the heart already told you where the important stuff was) and finding a secret area... well, you didn't find it.


It's no different from a map and it's optional. Also, while the heart does show you where things are, depending on your playstyle you may not even want to get them (most are useless if you're playing stealth.) In addition, you can see where things are but which path do you take to get there? How difficult will it be to get the rune or charm?


And then there is the ******* Batman vision, granted, its not as bad as in Batman (which is a joke of a game), but it is still very OP in Dish. Same goes for most of the other powers.

You don't have to use it. In fact, there is an achievement for playing the game with no upgrades aside from Blink.


Then the level design. Brilliant, beautiful, wide open! ....buuut the game never strays from the city. All the best games have varied level design and settings.

It didn't need to stray from the city and the millions who purchased and enjoyed it, as well as industry insiders who gave it over 50 awards, would disagree with you.


And yes, the game is too short. Also has bad design (not as a whole), and is lacking depth overall, much like the other new successors to the classics; DX:IW & Bioshock.

Game length is a matter of your opinion and YMMV depending on skill and playstyle.


If you go and play Arx Fatalis.

I'm not into playing relics, I'll leave that up to some of the other members here. This game is not Arx Fatalis nor is it attempting to be that.

nomotog
13th Jan 2013, 23:35
I wonder if dishonored would have won in a more competitive year.

CyberP
14th Jan 2013, 00:09
So what if you only have two guns to upgrade? Go play a SHOOTER if you want to upgrade your guns. If not, upgrade your crossbow, your grenades, the spring traps, etc.

Completely missing the point :poke:




It's no different from a map and it's optional. Also, while the heart does show you were things are, depending on your playstyle you may not even want to get them (most are useless if you're playing stealth.) In addition, you can see where things are but which path do you take to get there? How difficult will it be to get the rune or charm?

Again, completely missing the point.



You don't have to use it. In fact, there is an achievement for playing the game with no upgrades aside from Blink.


Again, completely missing the point. I expected better than this.



It didn't need to stray from the city and the millions who purchased and enjoyed it, as well as industry insiders who gave it over 50 awards, would disagree with you
Game length is a matter of your opinion and YMMV depending on skill and playstyle.

My whole previous post was just a matter of my opinion, as a generalisation. Except for the lacking depth part anyway.



I'm not into playing relics, I'll leave that up to some of the other members here. This game is not Arx Fatalis nor is it attempting to be that.
Stay ignorant. I take it you haven't played Deus Ex then?

EDIT: Also, I forgot to mention how everybody died in 1-2 hits.

HERESY
14th Jan 2013, 00:57
Completely missing the point :poke:

So if I'm missing the point go ahead and explain it because you're ranting and doing a piss poor job.



Again, completely missing the point.


See above.



Again, completely missing the point. I expected better than this.

See above.


My whole previous post was just a matter of my opinion, as a generalisation. Except for the lacking depth part anyway.


So you were making a point, about your opinion, yet you admit the opinion was a generalisation?


Stay ignorant. I take it you haven't played Deus Ex then?

Stay ignorant? Have you read what you've typed? No, I haven't played Deus Ex but I have played DX:HR. Deus Ex is a relic and I don't play relics, sorry.


EDIT: Also, I forgot to mention how everybody died in 1-2 hits.

Not on the hardest difficulty.

CyberP
14th Jan 2013, 01:05
I won't waste my time on ignorance and arrogance. :rolleyes:

HERESY
14th Jan 2013, 01:55
I won't waste my time on ignorance and arrogance. :rolleyes:

So you've only wasted bandwidth and everyones time by ranting and raving and then not being able to present a cogent argument.

Thanks for playing, friend.


I wonder if dishonored would have won in a more competitive year.

A more competitive year? Let's see, ME3, HALO 4, BLOPS2, AC3, BORDERLANDS 2, SLEEPING DOGS, XCOM, PROTOTYPE 2, DARKSIDERS 2, THE WALKING DEAD, RE6, SPEC OPS THE LINE, GHOST RECON FUTURE SOLDIER, MAX PAYNE 3, FINAL FANTASY XIII-2, ULTIMATE MARVEL VS CAPCOM 3, SSX, DIABLO 3...

Do I need to keep typing? This was a very competitive year.

EricaLeeV
14th Jan 2013, 02:16
I wonder if dishonored would have won in a more competitive year.

I feel similarly about the games presented last year...

FrankCSIS
14th Jan 2013, 03:06
And then there is the *** Batman vision, granted, its not as bad as in Batman (which is a joke of a game)

I feel hurt. The mechanics were simple and repetitive, but Arkham City is a great experience full of old school wonders. Growing up on Batman TAS, Paul Dini's countless easter eggs coupled with the city they managed to build was an absolute ton of fun. Rarely have I seen a world so rich and full of material at any given time in gaming, besides the few obvious classics. Studios need to pay attention to the way Dini integrated the story with the gameplay, especially in a semi-open world, where everyone always makes an awful botch of it. If you remove the hand-holding so symptomatic of the past ten years, it could compete with anything released, at any given moment in our short gaming history. The short and surprising Mad Hatter hidden mission alone is worthy of praise, and I remain convinced I haven't found all the hidden little story gems yet.

Shralla
14th Jan 2013, 03:32
Whoever was talking crap about Batman... Seriously? "A joke of a game"? Arkham Asylum and Arkham City are the two BEST third-person action games that have come out in years. Arkham Asylum was an exercise in brilliant mechanics, and Arkham City perfected it by introducing it to an open-world and adding substantially more gameplay content.

Seriously, what the hell?

Pinky_Powers
14th Jan 2013, 03:43
Whoever was talking crap about Batman... Seriously? "A joke of a game"? Arkham Asylum and Arkham City are the two BEST third-person action games that have come out in years. Arkham Asylum was an exercise in brilliant mechanics, and Arkham City perfected it by introducing it to an open-world and adding substantially more gameplay content.

Seriously, what the hell?

^--This. A thousand times, this. Both games are pure, distilled brilliance.

FrankCSIS
14th Jan 2013, 03:45
Seriously, what the hell?

My feeling exactly. If we only had two or three games as brilliant released each year, I'd still be as excited about gaming as I was at 12, possibly moreso. It's almost everything I always enjoyed in gaming, in one pure bundle of Batman fantasy wonder!

CyberP
14th Jan 2013, 04:23
:rolleyes: Trust me, you don't want to hear my answer. I will say though, remove Batman out of the picture, place some random in there. Still think it's a good game?
Just so we are clear it is not blind Batman love and you genuinely think it is a good game. Not batman game. Just game.


The mechanics were simple and repetitive,.

This quote here would be my short answer. You don't want to hear the long one.

FrankCSIS
14th Jan 2013, 04:33
That's ludicrous. The entire mechanics were built specifically to cater to the fact that Batman is in the picture. Everything was designed around the concept that, for once in gaming history, you truly get to play Batman and explore all of its mythos in a single game.

The brilliance comes from the fact that for once, the main character, the world and the plot arcs are at the center of the mechanics, and not an afterthought or an excuse to show off some neat little ideas from the drawing board. I WOULD be disappointed if the game was as good, with a generic character instead of Batman. Then it would fail to recognise what games as a medium can truly achieve, and what it means to have an experience, instead of a recipe.

CyberP
14th Jan 2013, 04:39
That's ludicrous. The entire mechanics were built specifically to cater to the fact that Batman is in the picture. Everything was designed around the concept that, for once in gaming history, you truly get to play Batman and explore all of its mythos in a single game.
.
Exactly. That's ludicrous. You dont play Batman, Batman plays you. Sure you press a few buttons here and there, but Batman does all the skills and effort.

Disney games on the SNES require more player input and skill.

If you were in FULL control of Batman, only then you would you BE batman.


Then it would fail to recognise what games as a medium can truly achieve, and what it means to have an experience, instead of a recipe.

You fail to recognise what the medium can truly achieve. How can you go from an immersive simulation such as Deus Ex, onto ******* Batman?
It's your childhood memories that are blinding you here, I believe.

FrankCSIS
14th Jan 2013, 04:48
I don't want to diss games that require amazing reflexes, as they are an integral part of the wonderful diversity of gaming which seems to shrink with every passing year, but I can't say that like you I am mourning the fact that every encounter was not a painful exercise in skills and reflexes.

To be a truly perfect game, the difficulty settings should have taken into account the control and movement you need to input as a player. But I've been complaining for years that not a single developer seems to understand that game difficulty needs to be completely revamped, so we can do away with the terrible concept of just throwing resistant enemies in greater number at you. Then we could have an experience that is enjoyable for nearly everyone, without sacrificing the fun for all players, of all skill levels.

But to call it a joke is to dismiss everything it does brilliantly, which is more than most of what I've played in, oh, surely five to seven years.

Edit: And no, it's not a truly immersive simulation. But we haven't seen that in 12 years, and even then we've only ever seen perhaps 3 or 4. I don't think the game tried to achieve that, but I think it did everything it meant to do, and then some.

CyberP
14th Jan 2013, 04:56
To be a truly perfect game, the difficulty settings should have taken into account the control and movement you need to input as a player. But I've been complaining for years that not a single developer seems to understand that game difficulty needs to be completely revamped, so we can do away with the terrible concept of just throwing resistant enemies in greater number at you. Then we could have an experience that is enjoyable for nearly everyone, without sacrificing the fun for all players, of all skill levels.
This is a respectable opinion.


But to call it a joke is to dismiss everything it does brilliantly, which is more than most of what I've played in, oh, surely five to seven years.
I am guessing you are strictly a PC gamer? I have played plenty of outstanding third person action games over the years on both PC and consoles, though they are more common on consoles.
All required player input, you feel more in control of the character, you feel more like you are that character.

Another game that shares similar traits (automated gameplay) is Assassins Creed.

Anyway it's not about the roleplaying, it's about fun, and a game that requires little player input might aswell just be a movie.



Edit: And no, it's not a truly immersive simulation. But we haven't seen that in 12 years, and even then we've only ever seen perhaps 3 or 4. I don't think the game tried to achieve that, but I think it did everything it meant to do, and then some.
I dont think it should try for that either, being in third person perspective for starters. It should just not have the combination of simplistic & automated gameplay.

FrankCSIS
14th Jan 2013, 05:04
Well I don't think I've played any third person game that requires player input since the introduction of the cover mechanic. Was it Gears of War to put it first? Memory tends to fade with old age. That brings us surely five years in the past. Even sports games don't ask that much reflexes, and tend to frustratingly take your control away.

I see where the frustration comes from though. I just can't apply it to Batman. Not fully anyway.

The way I've seen it, some simulation/management games had the best recipe for difficulty levels. They basically allowed you to customize what you wished to control, what disasters or problems you wished to add to the basic difficulty, and what you preferred to have the computer manage for you. Much of this theory could be easily applied to all areas of gaming, providing the necessary efforts are put forward, of course. I suspect most of the complaints in the industry would be completely put to rest, if we just fully explored that venue.

nomotog
14th Jan 2013, 05:14
How did we get on batman? Though well we are on it, I wasn't as impressed as everyone else was. Mostly because the free flowing combat wasn't really new to me. I reamber too human had a more rudimentary version of it. Also AA kind of had a problem with Simon says enemies. It all got fixed in city though. Lovely game.

FrankCSIS
14th Jan 2013, 05:17
Not sure how we got there. I just like to discuss game theory. My bad. On with the program!

CyberP
14th Jan 2013, 05:23
Well I don't think I've played any= third person game that requires player input since the introduction of the cover mechanic. Was it Gears of War to put it first? Memory tends to fade with old age. That brings us surely five years in the past. Even sports games don't ask that much reflexes, and tend to frustratingly take your control away. Yep, Epic Games ruined third person shooters.
Well they made the cover mechanic boom anyway. It was actually first seen in KillSwitch for the PS2 in 2003. Even then I hated it. But anyway Batman is a third person "stealth" game, where a cover mechanic is acceptable imo.
It's everything else that's bad. Have you ever experienced a manual aiming grappling hook in a game? Back when I was a boy I was stealthing around grapp. hooking onto rooftoops manually in the console game Tenchu (1998). If I missed the shot I was out in the open longer, even worse if it connected but was a bad shot I could fall to my death.
I WAS the ninja.
Batman you press the button, no risk, and in turn no reward. And no player input/skill either.


I see where the frustration comes from though. I just can't apply it to Batman. Not fully anyway.
Because you havent had the benefits of both the heavy skill-based console action games AND the smarter but slower paced PC games. There is Dark Souls though, that is something along the lines of what console third person action games used to be. And I dont know how it handles on a PC, but I assume terribly. Console Pads are perfect for those kind of games when you have all buttons at your fingertips comfortably. Although I am sure some players can pull off some mad M + K skills to get through Dark Souls.


The way I've seen it, some simulation/management games had the best recipe for difficulty levels. They basically allowed you to customize what you wished to control, what disasters or problems you wished to add to the basic difficulty, and what you preferred to have the computer manage for you. Much of this theory could be easily applied to all areas of gaming, providing the necessary efforts are put forward, of course. I suspect most of the complains in the industry would be completely put to rest, if we just fully explored that venue.
I dunno about custom difficulty like that, but more variation in what easy-hard offers is what they should be aiming for, imo. If they want to cater to everyone then do it properly.


Mostly because the free flowing combat wasn't really new to me.
Is one of the worst combat systems I have ever seen. And I have played alot of action games.

The years 1992-2005 or so were the golden age for both PC and Console gaming. And I got to experience both sides :) Except Planescape Torment which is meant to be a PC classic, apparently that one is more book than game? though.

FrankCSIS
14th Jan 2013, 05:33
I dunno about custom difficulty like that, but more variation in what easy-hard offers is what they should be aiming for, imo. If they want to cater to everyone then do it properly.

No really, it WOULD work with anything. Your claim about the grappling is fully legitimate. A simple on/off auto-aim feature could have been added to the settings you can adjust in difficulty to completely change your experience, and the difficulty level for all. Of course it means more programming, and translates into more detailed physics engine. But we already had more detailed physics with DX or HL 2, so it's not like we're shooting in the dark here. It's all been coded before.

You could adjust the battle movements management, the free-fly movement management, and on and on it goes. Same goes for Assassin's Creed, which, yes, would have been immensely more fun if we could properly control the little rag doll in killer garment. The first Hitman was certainly more of a simulation, even if terribly frustrating at times. It think we could achieve the best of all worlds if approaching difficulty settings this way.

nomotog
14th Jan 2013, 05:46
Oh god, you know I can't think of third person shooter that dosen't include sticky cover. It's just been so long.

CyberP
14th Jan 2013, 05:49
No really, it WOULD work with anything. Your claim about the grappling is fully legitimate. A simple on/off auto-aim feature could have been added to the settings you can adjust in difficulty to completely change your experience, and the difficulty level for all. Of course it means more programming, and translates into more detailed physics engine. But we already had more detailed physics with DX or HL 2, so it's not like we're shooting in the dark here. It's all been coded before.
True.


You could adjust the battle movements management, the free-fly movement management, and on and on it goes. Same goes for Assassin's Creed, which, yes, would have been immensely more fun if we could properly control the little rag doll in killer garment. The first Hitman was certainly more of a simulation, even if terribly frustrating at times. It think we could achieve the best of all worlds if approaching difficulty settings this way.
Hitman: Blood Money was the only Hitman game I liked.

"Little rag doll in killer garment". ha ha.

CyberP
14th Jan 2013, 05:54
Oh god, you know I can't think of third person shooter that dosen't include sticky cover. It's just been so long.

Final Fantasy 7: Dirge of Cerberus.
Dead Space 1 & 2.
Fallout 3 & NV, although those are strictly first person experiences.
Red Dead Redemption had one, but it could be ignored since you could crouch and jump on command as opposed to context sensitive equivalents of those mechanics.

....And that's about it.
Wait, the Saboteur, a rediculously underrated third person open world WW2 game, also had one, but it could be ignored much like RDR.

FrankCSIS
14th Jan 2013, 06:06
Wait, the Saboteur, a rediculously underrated third person open world WW2 game

Oh, forgot all about that game! An ambitious oddity in many ways it was, for 2009 anyway. But then again, coming from the studio that brought Destroy All Humans...!

CyberP
14th Jan 2013, 06:07
Oh, forgot all about that game! An ambitious oddity in many ways it was, for 2009 anyway. But then again, coming from the studio that brought Destroy All Humans...!

DAH1 was boring. 2 was a vast improvement and really fun. 3 was modern gaming trash.
Same studio that also brought Mercenaries though IIRC. That was a fun TPS.

Now I think of it, DAH2, Mercs & Sabotuer all play really similar. Lol. Still, all worth it and probably deserve another playthrough sometime. The settings and stories were vastly different and all really good. Especially DAH2's.

EDIT: Just looked up pandemic studios. They didn't even develop DAH3, so they have a pretty solid record.....yet they went out of business.

CyberP
14th Jan 2013, 06:36
You fallen asleep old bones? :lol:

HERESY
14th Jan 2013, 08:20
Third person cover for shooters, more specifically, the pop and shoot gameplay, started with WinBack not Killswitch. Also, depending on what you actually classify MGS, that would actually precede WinBack.

ETA: I don't recall RE4 having a sticky cover system.

Ashpolt
14th Jan 2013, 10:27
Oh god, you know I can't think of third person shooter that dosen't include sticky cover. It's just been so long.

Transformers: War for Cybertron / Fall of Cybertron. That's about all I can think of recently though. (Incidentally, Fall of Cybertron is excellent.)

KenTWOu
14th Jan 2013, 14:06
Ok, Shralla. Let me elaborate this.


And I really don't see how half of those are even "problems." Voice over? Dialogues? Characters? Story?
I see typical Bethesda problem here (by the way I know that this is the game by Arkane), bunch of Hollywood stars = problem solved. Not really! Good movie actor doesn't mean good voice over actor. DXHR is miles ahead of Dishonored in this regard. Elias Toufexis alone did a better job than Dishonored's Hollywood stars IMO. Corvo's dialogues are very simple, the game doesn't have complex dialogue system and doesn't give you enough options. So sometimes I just can't choose appropriate reaction because of that. Main characters aren't good enough and full of cliché, it's so serious problem, that Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw wrote this (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/10016-Idle-Chatter-Builds-Character).

Here is a quote: Here's the very first line of the briefing of Thief 2's first mission, in which Garrett helps a friend elope: "I've always equated 'feelings' with getting caught: they both get in the way of my money." Sixteen words in and Garrett has ten million times the personality of the entire population of Dishonored.


And lol AI, really? The AI in Dishonored was twice as interesting as the AI in Human Revolution.
Twice? I just can't believe you really think that. Weak AI is the most important problem of Dishonored stealth. It has great features like random patrol routes and patrol routes switching and that's it. Because It doesn't do basic stuff! You know, doesn't notice when you steal something, doesn't see/hear door/chest/safe opening, doesn't notice guards snoring, doesn't hear wall of light sirens when you hack it, doesn't notice candles when you blow them off... And leaning... Oh god, that leaning:
https://images.nonexiste.net/popular/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Leaning-Dishonored.gif

There is no tension in Dishonored stealth! Guards don't wake up each other, bodies just disappear. And if you have special power, they disappear almost instantly. There is no point to use some features and powers because of that. For example, there is no point to use keyholes, just move aside and open any door and then lean! No one notices! Oh, god, that leaning! :) Some assassinations are so ridiculous because of these simplifications.

Deus Ex:Human Revolution guards were much much better! There is no randomness, yes, but at least they see when you open a door in front of them or hear when you pull out a table drawer to take something. And DXHR doesn't have magical shoes which make your foot steps absolutely silent every time! Thief 3 Deadly Shadows has more impressive AI than Dishonored, that's for sure. That's why DXHR and Thief 3 has tension in sneaking. That's why their stealth was rewarding!


Low-chaos narrative? Do tell what's the issue here?
The last chapter is much much better during high-chaos walkthrough, cause you have plenty conversations with characters, great resolutions and awesome twist in the end (I mean Samuel's rash action). It's so fan just to try using different powers during the final confrontation! In low-chaos ending the same characters are just dead, there is no resolution at least for them, there is no twist and the final confrontation is much weaker. The last chapter of low-chaos walkthrough is just boring. Also during the game if you choose lethal action approach you get more scenes, more dialogues during battles with some of your targets. And these dialogues explains crucial part of the story and make the story more interesting. The most obvious example is Daud, he talks with you during the battle. Hiram Burrows also has interesting set piece in his panic room where you can show your face. Stealth looks like an afterthought in these moments.


Duration? Don't tell me you're one of those people complaining that the game was too short. Give me a break.
I don't complain, I beat the game twice, but DXHR is much much longer. And when the game is so short, I want better quality of every mission. Instead the game has problems with scripted events, scripts and respawning enemies. For example, in the first assassination mission you can find two guards which talks to each other in secret room in the basement. If you run very fast and open that secret room, they just disappear right in the middle of their conversation! Or if you get inside Boyle Mansion using one of the ways, guests (=the second way to get inside) disappear with their purses. So you can't steal all money on the level after that. Or during the duel you can use sleeping darts and assistants act like you kill your opponent. Or in the final chapter if you steal the key from the table and then talks to Havelock he offers you to take that key again! It's not an immersive sim approach, you know!

Balance - there is no balance! The game says that it's bad to kill people and gives you only two options to deal with them - pretty long choke hold and one type of arrows! That design decision makes non-lethal walkthrough tedious and repetitive (believe me, I know what I'm saying, I've got all achievements!) Almost all powers are made for an action approach, the most interesting feature of the game - emergent gameplay - was made exclusively for action players. Stealth looks like an afterthought! There is no gas grenades, there is no flash grenades, there is no some kind of a shocker, there is no non-lethal traps. Almost all weapons and abilities are lethal! It's a power fantasy. It's a very good, almost fantastic power fantasy, but horrible stealth game with unbalanced chaos system which forces you to not kill people.

nomotog
14th Jan 2013, 16:17
Another thing that I think hurt Dishonored. It didn't have an inventory system. Even a poorly done inventory system will help a lot with immersion. Something we should have learned from bioshock. Dishonored also had a little problem with leveling. At about the 2 mission, you have really seen most of the powers you can get.

CyberP
14th Jan 2013, 16:33
Yes indeed. Would have just helped the game be fun, which is more important than immersion, really.

HERESY
14th Jan 2013, 20:30
Ok, Shralla. Let me elaborate this.
I see typical Bethesda problem here (by the way I know that this is the game by Arkane), bunch of Hollywood stars = problem solved. Not really!...

I can agree with this.


Twice? I just can't believe you really think that. Weak AI is the most important problem of Dishonored stealth. It has great features like random patrol routes and patrol routes switching and that's it. Because It doesn't do basic stuff! You know, doesn't notice when you steal something, doesn't see/hear door/chest/safe opening, doesn't notice guards snoring, doesn't hear wall of light sirens when you hack it, doesn't notice candles when you blow them off... And leaning... Oh god, that leaning:

First I'll address leaning. Sometimes you can lean directly in front of an enemy and not be seen. Sometimes you can lean and you'll be seen. I still haven't determined how much shadows and lighting are a factor when it comes to this. It's a ding in my book.

Now, with DX: HR, I don't recall the enemies noticing anything was missing after if I stole something or opened a desk. I got caught hacking a couple of times, but no one noticed something was missing. Also, I don't remember a wall of light siren once I hacked it. I remember shutdown noises but no siren. Candles? Yes, I blew them out and no one ever seemed to be bothered. Now, in DX: HR, you could move a FRIDGE in the middle of a hallway with armed men, use it to jump on a ledge and go inside another room. Were the armed guys attempting to move the fridge that just mysteriously popped up in the middle of the hallway?


There is no tension in Dishonored stealth!

That's a matter of opinion. You take a person who has never played a stealth game, or who has played a small amount of stealth games, and they'll probably tell you something different.


Guards don't wake up each other, bodies just disappear.

True, the bodies do disappear and while I recall enemies telling the downed guard he was supposed to be awake, they didn't do anything. But back to bodies disappearing, I think that's actually something they chose to do to keep performance issues under control. Don't quote me on that, I said I think that's the case. Now, let's look at DX: HR, and the bodies. You knock a guy out in a city. You leave, travel the world, come back days later and the guy is still knocked out. LOL.


And if you have special power, they disappear almost instantly. There is no point to use some features and powers because of that. For example, there is no point to use keyholes, just move aside and open any door and then lean! No one notices! Oh, god, that leaning! :) Some assassinations are so ridiculous because of these simplifications.

Again, lean isn't perfect and you can get caught leaning. You want to compare the assassinations in Dishonored to the boss battles of DX:HR?


Deus Ex:Human Revolution guards were much much better! There is no randomness, yes, but at least they see when you open a door in front of them or hear when you pull out a table drawer to take something. And DXHR doesn't have magical shoes which make your foot steps absolutely silent every time! Thief 3 Deadly Shadows has more impressive AI than Dishonored, that's for sure. That's why DXHR and Thief 3 has tension in sneaking. That's why their stealth was rewarding!

I'm not going to comment on Thief 3 but I will say that the DX: HR guards being "better" is an opinion. Refer to what I said about the fridge in the middle of the hallway and knocked out guards. Concerning magical shoes and silence, you might want to check the leg augment list again. :)


The last chapter is much much better during high-chaos walkthrough, cause you have plenty conversations with characters, great resolutions and awesome twist in the end (I mean Samuel's rash action)....

Didn't go through my first run playing high chaos. It was low chaos so when I pick it back up in the future I plan to do this.


I don't complain, I beat the game twice, but DXHR is much much longer. And when the game is so short, I want better quality of every mission.

Like all games it's YMMV. I can't say it's "short" because what is short to you or the next guy may be a different thing to another person, but I think it's shorter than DX:HR.


Instead the game has problems with scripted events, scripts and respawning enemies. For example, in the first assassination mission you can find two guards which talks to each other in secret room in the basement. If you run very fast and open that secret room, they just disappear right in the middle of their conversation!

I haven't seen this but it sounds like a programming issue. I just ran into something similar two days ago with Ghost Recon: FS.


Or if you get inside Boyle Mansion using one of the ways, guests (=the second way to get inside) disappear with their purses. So you can't steal all money on the level after that. Or during the duel you can use sleeping darts and assistants act like you kill your opponent. Or in the final chapter if you steal the key from the table and then talks to Havelock he offers you to take that key again! It's not an immersive sim approach, you know!

Again, this sounds like a programming issue and is something that should have been addressed. If you see a guy snoring there is no reason to assume he is dead. I agree (I didn't use the darts on him.) How about we look at DX:HR's "phantom limb" that allows you to pick up bodies and drag them? How about we talk about how you can pick up objects and see through them without augments?

BTW, there is no such thing as an "immersive sim." I've disproved that myth numerous times here.


Balance - there is no balance! The game says that it's bad to kill people and gives you only two options to deal with them - pretty long choke hold and one type of arrows! That design decision makes non-lethal walkthrough tedious and repetitive (believe me, I know what I'm saying, I've got all achievements!)

And how many options did we have in DX: HR? Personally, I see no problem with one type of arrow and a pretty long choke hold (which could be shortened by the way.) I went the non lethal route and found nothing tedious or repetitive.


Almost all powers are made for an action approach, the most interesting feature of the game - emergent gameplay - was made exclusively for action players. Stealth looks like an afterthought!

Stealth doesn't look like an afterthought to me. Blink, possession, agility, dark vision, bend time and shadow kill (if you want to play stealth but in a lethal manner) can all be used for stealth gameplay. That's over half of your powers if you also count shadow kill. Add in charms that allow you to run faster while carrying bodies, choke people out quicker, possess white rats longer, etc, and there is a lot you can do with it.


There is no gas grenades, there is no flash grenades, there is no some kind of a shocker, there is no non-lethal traps.

You don't need all of these things to have a good stealth game. Mark of the Ninja proved it.


Almost all weapons and abilities are lethal! It's a power fantasy. It's a very good, almost fantastic power fantasy, but horrible stealth game with unbalanced chaos system which forces you to not kill people.

Yes, almost all weapons are lethal. So? Does that mean you have to use them? Mostly all of the weapons in DX: HR were lethal. What's your point? Again, concerning the abilities, 5 of them can be used if you want to play stealth. That's half the powers, bro.

nomotog
14th Jan 2013, 20:55
Dishonored can't just be a passable stealth game. They promised a DX game.

HERESY
14th Jan 2013, 21:30
Dishonored can't just be a passable stealth game. They promised a DX game.

I don't know anything about what they did or didn't promise, man.

froghawk
14th Jan 2013, 23:26
For me personally, as a longtime fan of the looking glass legacy, Dishonored was a much more enjoyable game for me. To be clear, I loved DXHR and I think it's a worthy successor to the DX name, but there are certain things that truly ruin it to the point that I only played it once while Dishonored has gotten me to play it 3 times already, and I never do that with any game. DXHR captures the DX atmosphere quite well, especially in the hubs, while playing Dishonored stealthily truly feels like a thief experience.

Let's start with the story. Human Revolution begins developing an extremely interesting and engaging story, but it's unfocused. The conflict over human augmentation was utterly compelling and involved me more than anything else in any recent game story, but it wasn't resolved in a satisfying way. The game is framed by an opening cinematic and voiceover after the credits featuring Bob Page to tie the story into the original game, making the actual main events of the game little more than a sidestory to the real story which we never even manage to reveal in the game. Instead, the game focuses around finding Megan, but then even forgets to wrap that up properly - you find her then lose her again and forget about her. No, the game sets up many interesting threads them completely forgets about them and instead gives you a completely non sequiter and rather stupid zombie closing sequence with a minor character becoming a major megalomaniac villain. Basically every story thread is left unresolved, and since the story was actually quite engaging up until that point, it couldn't be more of a letdown. It keeps me from replaying the game because I know I will get wrapped up in the story again only to be left hanging on every single interesting element the story offers. It's the worst kind of bad storytelling - a good beginning and middle with a completely worthless ending.

By contrast, Dishonored's story is completely unengaging and there are some definite flaws in their attempts to accommodate different playstyles, but because the gameplay is so good and the story never engaged me to begin with, I find it quite unintrusive. The story is basically there to propel some incredible gameplay forwards. It doesn't set up any expectations it can't meet, so it is far less disappointing to me than DXHR's story. Yes, it has less of value to offer, but the high chaos ending sequence is quite fun on a story level and, if anything, comes as a pleasant surprise rather than a rude disappointment.

Which brings me to the gameplay. The level design in DXHR is decent, but mostly doesn't hold a candle to the original DX. Most of the actual levels are rather linear romps with multiple paths through them, and the city hubs actually end up providing the most entertaining gameplay - which means that the final levels are a bit more mundane since you leave the hubs for good. By contrast, Dishonored may be a shorter game, but every level is brilliantly designed. I can't stop exploring them and finding new paths through them - they accommodate different playstyles beautifully and allow you to truly make your own path. And on top of that, there are no gamebreakingly awful bossfights to ruin the experience.

Admittedly, DXHR is a much harder game than Dishonored on its highest difficulty, but its various playstyles aren't as fun. One thing that quite surprised me about Dishonored is that it's just as much fun to play as a full-on bloodbath as it is to ghost the game. On the other hand, truly ghosting DXHR is so hard that it's frustrating, while I have absolutely no desire to try to a lethal playthrough. Both games try to punish you with lots of moralizing for killing, but Dishonored does it in a way that's much more fun and has a larger, more palpable effect on the world.

When it comes to the powers in each game, Dishonored's magic is generally much more entertaining than DXHR's rather generic and often useless upgrades. Dishonored also forces you to make choices about your upgrades, as you can't get every power in a given playthrough - but you also won't need them all if you're sticking to one playstyle. You can get every useful upgrade in a single DXHR playthrough.

Personally, I enjoy first person stealth much more than third person cover and takedown animations, so Dishonored wins on that front. Both games use an exclusively cover-based system instead of shadow-based stealth, and while I prefer shadow-based stealth like Thief and the original Deus Ex, I also acknowledge that it isn't very realistic and having things cover-oriented probably makes the game a little more difficult. The AI is a bit more unforgiving in DXHR, but there also tends to be more stuff to hide behind in the levels.

In short, the games have different strengths. Neither has a successful story, but at least Dishonored doesn't get you excited only to severely let you down. Both games have fantastic atmosphere. DXHR's strengths lie in its conversations, dialogue and city hubs, while Dishonored offers a much more fun version of the same sort of gameplay - and ultimately, that is what attracts me back to the game. The art design is beautiful, there's lots of atmosphere, and the game has a lot to offer by trying it with different play styles, powers, and approaches in each level. The level design is truly brilliant and worthy of the original DX or Thief games, which isn't something I can say about any other recent game. So, for me, Dishonored wins out, only because DXHR fails to realize its own strengths and sabotages itself through awful boss battles and irrelevant endgame sequence which focuses on the game's flaws. Maybe someday I will want to replay HR, but what's the point? The story is still going to derail itself, the boss battles will still be there, and the endgame will still be a dreadful mess. It's a shame, because most other aspects of the game were shockingly good. If only it could have delivered that experience more consistently... by contrast, I find every section of Dishonored fun. It's nice when your choices amount to more than pressing a button at the end and actually affect the game world.

froghawk
14th Jan 2013, 23:35
And since we're on the topic, I think Arkham City was an excellent game in a number of ways, but it also had story problems. It set up a unique and interesting (if improbable) premise, but failed to do anything interesting with it or even focus on it at all in the plot. The game's plot is pretty solid until you scale the tower, at which point it feels like you're about halfway through the plot.... but then the game quickly rushes to an end, again setting up Joker as the main villain and forgetting to bring resolution to the Arkham City plot.

Arkham Asylum, by contrast, was quite consistent and its story was focused and well-paced. It wasn't particularly interesting, but the game did so many other things right that it didn't have to be. Arkham City improved on most aspects of the game, but story wasn't one of them.

Both DXHR and B:AC set up incredibly interesting premises, but neither can stay focused on them long enough to actually see the story through. It's a shame. I haven't played a game with a fully realized, satisfying story in ages... maybe not since Silent Hill 2. Invisible War had a fascinating story which stayed much more focused and was ultimately more interesting than HR, despite being very emotionally cold and failing to give your actions any real consequence until the final sequence. Too bad it got most everything else wrong...

I think the writers of Human Revolution realized they were writing a sidelines story and panicked. The game opens with Bob Page... but then he vanishes until after the game is over. So then the focus moves to the scientist who developed augmentation... but then she vanishes for most of the game, but by the time you find her, the game no longer cares about her. You're left with a story about an everyman who became augmented and got to witness the chaos resulting from the introduction of human augmentation. This actually would have been an incredibly cool angle for them to take if they had stuck with it... but it seems like they felt the need to justify their use of Jensen as a main character, and therefore forgot about the rest of the plot they had written in order to make him save the world. And in order to do that, they took an interesting and mysterious minor character and turned him into a whiny baby who was going to turn everyone into zombies because - boo hoo - he can't be augmented and he is jealous. I mean.. really? The story was reasonably intelligent before that point, but the final sequence is an insult to the intelligence of both the player and the rest of the story. It's downright moronic, and it has no place being tacked on the end of the game. Even the gameplay changes for the worse to accommodate it, basically being reduced to 'run away from zombies or fight zombies.' But I thought I was playing Deus Ex?....

Then, as if the writers realized that their attempt to save the story from being an irrelevant sideshow basically turned the game into an irrelevant sideshow, they tacked on a secret ending after the credits with... Bob Page and Megan! Speech only! Great, that really made up for the rest of the story.

HERESY
15th Jan 2013, 05:27
Nice posts. I agree with some of it, disagree with other parts but it's a good compare and constrast piece. I think the spirit of your post, and what I've previously stated a page or two ago, comes down to looking at each game separately and seeing if each game actually achieves what it is supposed to be/do.

KenTWOu
15th Jan 2013, 06:08
Now, with DX: HR, I don't recall the enemies noticing anything was missing after if I stole something or opened a desk.
You're right and wrong. They didn't notice when you steal something, because DXHR isn't about thievery. But Thief 3 NPCs did notice when you steal something. Also about a desk drawer. DXHR guards hear that and react accordingly!
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/595858860487431759/BC0A5796EA7409251CBDACA396252F5AC550C448/
This guy is from TYM, If you open that drawer, he will definitely hear that process. Just try it. I don't want to upload the whole video to prove it. Also they hear when you open lockers, doors, windows... For example, this guy fell into a doze. If I close that window he will hear that.
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/595858860487430250/A9533FA693C48ABE81082EADC67386930700A807/
Dishonored guards won't. They are dumbed down.


Also, I don't remember a wall of light siren once I hacked it.
When you walk near default WOL it makes very loud noise and small lamp on top of it starts blink! This stuff indicates than WOL will kill you. When you hack WOL it makes very loud noise when guards walk nearby, that lamp is also blinks, it indicates that it will kill them. So the point is guards should hear/see these things and get the information that WOL was hacked! But they don't do it.


Now, in DX: HR, you could move a FRIDGE in the middle of a hallway with armed men, use it to jump on a ledge and go inside another room. Were the armed guys attempting to move the fridge that just mysteriously popped up in the middle of the hallway?
Don't talk about fridges! There is no stealth games that solved this fundamental AI problem! Because if you want to teach guards to notice such things, you should implement individual memory for everyone on the level and tons of additional dialogues! Because you can take that FRIDGE from one room to another, you can rotate it, you can drop it on its back, you can make millions of possible situations with this fridge! And AI should react to all of them. But AI can't move that fridge. It's just not possible to make such system with current technologies! There is no stealth games that solved this fundamental problem! That's why the first Deus Ex also has this problem.

While stealing is a less ambitious problem. When you steal, you steal immovable object which has only 2 certain absolutely predictable conditions: item lies on the level in one certain place, item lies in your inventory. And Thief 3 already solved that problem!


Again, lean isn't perfect and you can get caught leaning.
You can't! You just doing it wrong. I recommend you to try this, just lean from any corner and then try to strafe left and right and you will get the exact moment, when guards notice your body. But they don't notice your head while you're leaning!



You want to compare the assassinations in Dishonored to the boss battles of DX:HR?
I don't, DX:HR sucks in this regard. But Hitman series has better assassinations (even Hitman:Absolution), because most of Dishonored targets just stand still or stay inside very small rooms.


I'm not going to comment on Thief 3 but I will say that the DX: HR guards being "better" is an opinion. Refer to what I said about the fridge in the middle of the hallway and knocked out guards. Concerning magical shoes and silence, you might want to check the leg augment list again. :)
1) Leg augmentation uses energy! It's not a cheat! You should turn it on/off manually. While shoes don't use energy, they works every time and everywhere automatically after you bought them.
2) It's not an opinion, it's a fact! Stealth and ghosting is much better in DXHR, because you should observe enemies, you should find a right moment to open a door or a window, to walk from one room to another, and you can't stop time and blink out of any situation. And takedowns use energy. That's why DXHR has very high tension! Dishonored just doesn't have it, because its main focus is a power fantasy and its AI isn't good enough! Power fantasy seriously contradicts stealth. Man, even Splinter Cell:Conviction with overpowered Mark & Execute feature wasn't such unbalanced game and on realistic difficulty guards kill you pretty fast if you screwed up. Dishonored is a piece of cake even on maximum difficulty!

Just listen this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4KN47Rh-Nl0#t=184s)! That's the main reason why DXHR is a better game than Dishonored.


And how many options did we have in DX: HR?
Much more than in Dishonored! Several types of non-lethal grenades + wall mines, shocker, takedown, double takedown, non-lethal takedown during falling(!), tranquilize rifle, PEPS gun. Seriously I didn't use any of lethal weapons and have fun during my first non-lethal walktrough. Because every weapon has its logical purpose: short distance, middle distance, long distance. Moreover, some weapons has special emergent features. You can use PEPS to move heavy boxes. Tranquilizer gun seriously helps in tactic cause if you shot in the head guard falls instantly, if you shot in the body he falls several seconds later (behind any object), so you can choose where his body exactly falls. You can use shocker to temporarily turn off cameras and turrets, etc... And lethal walkthrough also gives you more type of weapons than Dishonored.


Stealth doesn't look like an afterthought to me. Blink, possession, agility, dark vision, bend time and shadow kill (if you want to play stealth but in a lethal manner) can all be used for stealth gameplay. That's over half of your powers if you also count shadow kill. Add in charms that allow you to run faster while carrying bodies, choke people out quicker, possess white rats longer, etc, and there is a lot you can do with it.
Lethal powers and weapons give you much more! It's so obvious, I don't want to explain this again. Just read this comment (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/01/14/dishonored-designer-joe-houston-on-violence-in-games/#comment-1172391). It's not my comment, by the way.


You don't need all of these things to have a good stealth game. Mark of the Ninja proved it.
You didn't get the point! Dishonored has chaos system and if you kill people it changes the world around you accordingly. That's why it must! IT MUST give you more non-lethal powers, weapons and gadgets! 'Mark of the Ninja' is about killing people, because you're a ninja, it doesn't have two separate endings, it doesn't allow you to deal with your main targets non-lethally! That's why 'Mark of the Ninja' doesn't need more non-lethal weapons! Kill or avoid them. But it still has gas grenades and analogue of flash grenades and its 'Blink' ability isn't overpowered! That's why avoiding enemies is fun and challenging. It's a shame! 'Mark of the Ninja' is a much better stealth game than Dishonored, hell, even Hitman:Absolution is a much better stealth game than Dishonored. At least it has serious challenge!


Yes, almost all weapons are lethal. So? Does that mean you have to use them? Mostly all of the weapons in DX: HR were lethal. What's your point?
You didn't get the point again! Because the most important feature of the game - emergent gameplay - is all about killing people! You can stop time and use windblast to move any bullet in the air and kill people. You can blink on any street lamp, blink over any enemy and drop on him using dead from above. You can possess a guard stand under propaganda loudspeaker jump out of that guard and drop that loudspeaker on his head. You can mix lethal weapons/gadgets/powers with each other and get different outcome. It's all about creative killing! Developers absolutely forgot about creative non-lethal knock outs! While DXHR was about creative non-lethal KO because it has plenty of features to support such play style.

nomotog
15th Jan 2013, 06:50
Don't talk about fridges! There is no stealth games that solved this fundamental AI problem! Because if you want to teach guards to notice such things, you should implement individual memory for everyone on the level and tons of additional dialogues! Because you can take that FRIDGE from one room to another, you can rotate it, you can drop it on its back, you can make millions of possible situations with this fridge! And AI should react to all of them. But AI can't move that fridge. It's just not possible to make such system with current technologies! There is no stealth games that solved this fundamental problem! That's why the first Deus Ex also has this problem.


It can't be that hard to fix the fringe problem. Maybe if guards went on alert when they found their path blocked by a movable object. The idea being that a guard might not notice that this box was moved. (Guards are not that attentive in real life) On the other hand they will totally notice when they bump there toe on a fringe that has been moved in their path.

KenTWOu
15th Jan 2013, 07:26
It can't be that hard to fix the fringe problem...
Yes, it's really that hard! There is no stealth games that solved this fundamental problem! That's why Dishonored also has this problem but in less obvious way!

You can take any unconscious body and move it from one place to another and you don't get appropriate reaction from guards. Because it's the same FRIDGE situation. They don't notice that you move that body from one place to another (they will think that it's a new unconscious body when they find it), they don't notice that you rotate that body, they don't notice that you take that body away after they found it.

Because detection system is pretty simple and binary in every stealth/action game, because guards don't remember exact position of every item on every level, because such system demands tons of dialogues from every type of NPC (i.e. "I think somebody rotated that fridge...", "I guess that TV stood there last time I saw it...", "I think somebody moved that chair...", "I'm pretty sure these boxes were there...", "There were two dead bodies here, now there are three..."), because they don't have real memory and real eyes!

For example, when you throw an object they don't see it actually! They don't see its trajectory. They just hear the sound when object hits the wall or the floor. Almost every stealth game has this simplification. Because our hardware isn't fast enough for realistic calculations. But sound calculations are pretty simple: you get one point and radius around it. If the guard inside that radius he reacts! He hears the sound of impact. 'Mark of the Ninja' explains these calculations perfectly. And its AI also has problems if you compare it with DXHR and especially Splinter Cell 3:Chaos Theory.

And doors opening works because a door has certain predictable conditions: closed, opened, closing/opening. That's why Splinter Cell 3:Chaos Theory guards even remember that certain door was previously closed. That's why some Thief 3 NPCs also notice that. Freely movable objects is another story!

CyberP
15th Jan 2013, 08:12
ETA: I don't recall RE4 having a sticky cover system.
No, it didn't. But it didn't have a crouch or jump button either, which is the main reason the cover mechanic is hated by experienced gamers- because you can only jump or crouch when in the cover system, in places set by the designers. If there are dedicated buttons for those mechanics then a cover system can be ignored (much like Deus Ex HR then).

But even without a dedicated crouch or jump mechanic RE4 was a good game. Level design was good, grid based inventory and a weapon upgrading system that were obviously inspired by Deus Ex 1, enemies were interesting and varied, as were the scripted action sequences surprisingly. Even more surprising is that QTE events didn't suck (on console anyway where all buttons are at your fingertips, suitable for reflex skills), it is the only game to implement QTE's well imo.

HERESY
15th Jan 2013, 21:38
You're right and wrong. They didn't notice when you steal something, because DXHR isn't about thievery. But Thief 3 NPCs did notice when you steal something.

A lot of the codes and information you gathered came from stealing so I'd say DX:HR is very much about thievery. And again, I'm talking about behavior of the enemy AI after something has been stolen. So if we're going to compare things that happen after the fact, DX:HR doesn't get a pass in this department.


This guy is from TYM, If you open that drawer, he will definitely hear that process. Just try it. I don't want to upload the whole video to prove it. Also they hear when you open lockers, doors, windows... For example, this guy fell into a doze. If I close that window he will hear that. Dishonored guards won't. They are dumbed down.

You're missing the point. If we're going to talk about candles being blown out and enemies not noticing certain things, DX:HR can't get a pass because the enemies fail to notice things as well.


When you walk near default WOL it makes very loud noise and small lamp on top of it starts blink! This stuff indicates than WOL will kill you. When you hack WOL it makes very loud noise when guards walk nearby, that lamp is also blinks, it indicates that it will kill them. So the point is guards should hear/see these things and get the information that WOL was hacked! But they don't do it.

Every time I hacked a WOL no one was near. Does the WOL honk when rats are near? Maybe it could be a case of enemies thinking rats are present and not really paying any mind, I don't know I'm just throwing something out there on that one as I have explored the possibility. However, I do know when the gun thing blinks, and enemies are around when it does, they will come straight for you. What I don't get however, and this ties into what you’re saying, is when the enemy notices the whale oil tanks have gone out. They say something about them running out but they don't go to the tank and replace it.


Don't talk about fridges! There is no stealth games that solved this fundamental AI problem! …There is no stealth games that solved this fundamental problem! That's why the first Deus Ex also has this problem.

So why are you slamming Dishonored for "not doing basic stuff?" (Your words not mine.) You're missing the point, you mentioned no one noticing candles being blown out, again, in DX:HR, the guards don't even notice a FRIDGE that shouldn't be there. Both games have there own issues when it comes to this but you're attempting to pass it off as if it's just Dishonored.


While stealing is a less ambitious problem. When you steal, you steal immovable object which has only 2 certain absolutely predictable conditions: item lies on the level in one certain place, item lies in your inventory. And Thief 3 already solved that problem!

So what if Thief 3 solved it? This thread is about comparing and contrasting Dishonored and DX:HR, not Thief 3.


You can't! You just doing it wrong. I recommend you to try this, just lean from any corner and then try to strafe left and right and you will get the exact moment, when guards notice your body. But they don't notice your head while you're leaning!

Again, I've been caught leaning. Maybe I did do it wrong when I got caught (it was like in chapter one or two) but everytime I did it later on I didn't get caught.


I don't, DX:HR sucks in this regard. But Hitman series has better assassinations (even Hitman:Absolution), because most of Dishonored targets just stand still or stay inside very small rooms.

You were the one who mentioned the assassinations :)

The targets didn't stand still for me. I tried to fight some and I killed others silently. Yes, they are all in rooms and it would have been cool to actually chase a target through Dunwall. As for Hitman I didn't play the series so I can't comment on it.


1) Leg augmentation uses energy! It's not a cheat! You should turn it on/off manually. While shoes don't use energy, they works every time and everywhere automatically after you bought them.

1. You have to find the blueprint for the stealth upgrade. If you don't find it guess what? You don't get it.

2. You have to have money to pay for the upgrade work.

3. You don't have to pay for the upgrade. If you don't want to use it don't pay for it. It's simple as that.

4. It's not a cheat. It's supposed to work every time and everywhere, automatically, after you purchased the upgrade.


2) It's not an opinion, it's a fact! Stealth and ghosting is much better in DXHR, because you should observe enemies, you should find a right moment to open a door or a window, to walk from one room to another, and you can't stop time and blink out of any situation. And takedowns use energy. That's why DXHR has very high tension!

No, it's your opinion and ultimately dictated by your experience when it comes to stealth titles. Again, concerning tension, that depends on the person playing the game. You take a person who hasn't played a stealth game in their life and they'll tell you a different story. And you can't blink out of every situation without being unoticed. You can blink into a bad sitaution and enemies will notice you and you can blink out and they'll still yell "Witchcraft!", ring the alarm and look for you.


Dishonored just doesn't have it, because its main focus is a power fantasy and its AI isn't good enough! Power fantasy seriously contradicts stealth. Man, even Splinter Cell:Conviction with overpowered Mark & Execute feature wasn't such unbalanced game and on realistic difficulty guards kill you pretty fast if you screwed up. Dishonored is a piece of cake even on maximum difficulty!

Again, you don't have to use all the powers. You said you got all the achievements right? And you played through twice right? So when did you get your one for not playing with any upgrades? First or second run? And while I do own Conviction, I haven't played it for more than 2 hours. I'm backlogged 20+ games and see no end in sight.


Just listen this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4KN47Rh-Nl0#t=184s)! That's the main reason why DXHR is a better game than Dishonored.

This does absolutely nothing to support your claim. In fact it pokes holes in your claim. The guy said every player had a different experience and tried different things, so going back to what you said, there is no way you can say this is more tense or that is more tense and call it fact because it all comes down to the individual. Are you saying Dishonored doesn't have that? Being able to try things multiple ways?


Much more than in Dishonored! Several types of non-lethal grenades + wall mines, shocker, takedown, double takedown, non-lethal takedown during falling(!), tranquilize rifle, PEPS gun. Seriously I didn't use any of lethal weapons and have fun during my first non-lethal walktrough.

More does not always mean better. And since you find it appropriate to compare games we aren't even discussing (Theif and Hitman) how many lethal weapons does DX:HR have compared to Borderlands 1 or 2? So what if they only offered you a handful of weapons? Use them! How many powerups did Super Mario Bros offer you? Now compare that to Sonic and count how many you got in the original Sonic game. Do the powers, weapons, etc work as designed in Dishonored? Do they work as designed in DX:HR?


Because every weapon has its logical purpose: short distance, middle distance, long distance.... And lethal walkthrough also gives you more type of weapons than Dishonored.

So what you're saying is the weapons in Dishonored have no logical purpose? Are you saying the weapons and powers don't allow for emergent gameplay?


Lethal powers and weapons give you much more! It's so obvious, I don't want to explain this again. Just read this comment (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/01/14/dishonored-designer-joe-houston-on-violence-in-games/#comment-1172391). It's not my comment, by the way.


1. That guy basically said some of the same things I said. The difference is YOU said stealth gameplay was an afterthought.

2. You can play in a violent fashion but still play in a manner of stealth. Stealth and non-violent are not the same thing. Stealth means you aren't seen. Non-violent means you didn't kill anyone.


You didn't get the point! Dishonored has chaos system and if you kill people it changes the world around you accordingly. That's why it must! IT MUST give you more non-lethal powers, weapons and gadgets!

No, it must not give you more non-lethal powers, weapons and gadgets. You simply want more of these things but it doesn't need to give them to you for it to be a good game. You should know, you got the achievement for playing with nothing outside of Blink right? If that's all you need to play in a stealth manner that's all you need. Deal with it. Accept the challenge. If you don't want to see the world change don't kill people and this brings me back to the point a froghawk introduced, what exactly does stealth or non-lethal play in DX:HR garner you? We know that in Dishonored it can mean the difference in how many guards, rats, the ending, etc. What about DX:HR?



'Mark of the Ninja' is about killing people, because you're a ninja, it doesn't have two separate endings

Yes it does.



it doesn't allow you to deal with your main targets non-lethally!

Some of them can be dealth with in a non-lethal fashion (one guy, all you have to do is steal something from him if you want.)


That's why 'Mark of the Ninja' doesn't need more non-lethal weapons! Kill or avoid them. …'Mark of the Ninja' is a much better stealth game than Dishonored, hell, even Hitman:Absolution is a much better stealth game than Dishonored. At least it has serious challenge!

Mark of the Ninja is probably the best ninja game ever made, IMHO, but I never compared it to Dishonored. I haven't played H:A so I can't comment on that.


You didn't get the point again! Because the most important feature of the game - emergent gameplay - is all about killing people!

So if that's the most important feature why are you calling for more non-lethal weapons?


You can stop time and use windblast to move any bullet in the air and kill people. …While DXHR was about creative non-lethal KO because it has plenty of features to support such play style.

No, they didn't forget about them. They just didn't include much or any of it. Ultimately, what does playing in a non-lethal way get you in DX: HR?

nomotog
15th Jan 2013, 22:14
Yes, it's really that hard! There is no stealth games that solved this fundamental problem! That's why Dishonored also has this problem but in less obvious way!

You can take any unconscious body and move it from one place to another and you don't get appropriate reaction from guards. Because it's the same FRIDGE situation. They don't notice that you move that body from one place to another (they will think that it's a new unconscious body when they find it), they don't notice that you rotate that body, they don't notice that you take that body away after they found it.

Because detection system is pretty simple and binary in every stealth/action game, because guards don't remember exact position of every item on every level, because such system demands tons of dialogues from every type of NPC (i.e. "I think somebody rotated that fridge...", "I guess that TV stood there last time I saw it...", "I think somebody moved that chair...", "I'm pretty sure these boxes were there...", "There were two dead bodies here, now there are three..."), because they don't have real memory and real eyes!

For example, when you throw an object they don't see it actually! They don't see its trajectory. They just hear the sound when object hits the wall or the floor. Almost every stealth game has this simplification. Because our hardware isn't fast enough for realistic calculations. But sound calculations are pretty simple: you get one point and radius around it. If the guard inside that radius he reacts! He hears the sound of impact. 'Mark of the Ninja' explains these calculations perfectly. And its AI also has problems if you compare it with DXHR and especially Splinter Cell 3:Chaos Theory.

And doors opening works because a door has certain predictable conditions: closed, opened, closing/opening. That's why Splinter Cell 3:Chaos Theory guards even remember that certain door was previously closed. That's why some Thief 3 NPCs also notice that. Freely movable objects is another story!

I don't think it's a hardware problem. More just design choices that the devs made.

froghawk
16th Jan 2013, 02:03
Nice posts. I agree with some of it, disagree with other parts but it's a good compare and constrast piece. I think the spirit of your post, and what I've previously stated a page or two ago, comes down to looking at each game separately and seeing if each game actually achieves what it is supposed to be/do.

Thanks! I'm curious as to which aspects you disagree with, since your posts on the subject seem very level-headed (aside from avoiding Deus Ex because it is 'a relic' - relic or not, it's far better than any of the games discussed here - and this is coming from someone who absolutely cannot get into Arx Fatalis, no matter how hard I try).

CyberP
16th Jan 2013, 03:12
as a longtime fan of the looking glass legacy


and this is coming from someone who absolutely cannot get into Arx Fatalis, no matter how hard I try).

You are not worthy :rasp:

froghawk
16th Jan 2013, 04:17
Well, I also never went as far back as the Ultima Underworld games - my experience with LGS begins with System Shock. Perhaps that is a problem. I've played a bit of Strife to see where the RPG/shooter hybrid began, but also haven't explored Cybermage, Bioforge, or the Crusader titles - so yes, I have a bit of work to do on the LGS history front.

My lack of engagement with Arx essentially stems from the clunky combat, constant bugs, dull and bland environments, lack of interesting characters, and lamentable dialogue and voice acting. I'm sure the game has other redeeming qualities, but it's tough for me to bring myself to keep slogging through in order to find them. I can't tell for the life of me why the game was considered such a classic, aside from the ability to bake pies and a unique magic system. Dark Messiah also had wretched dialogue and a completely generic story and setting, but at least the gameplay mechanics were polished and fun. Dishonored is Arkane's first truly awesome game IMO.

CyberP
16th Jan 2013, 04:59
. I've played a bit of Strife to see where the RPG/shooter hybrid began, .

The RPG shooter hybrid began with System Shock.


My lack of engagement with Arx essentially stems from the clunky combat, constant bugs, dull and bland environments, lack of interesting characters, and lamentable dialogue and voice acting. I'm sure the game has other redeeming qualities, but it's tough for me to bring myself to keep slogging through in order to find them. I can't tell for the life of me why the game was considered such a classic, aside from the ability to bake pies and a unique magic system. Dark Messiah also had wretched dialogue and a completely generic story and setting, but at least the gameplay mechanics were polished and fun. Dishonored is Arkane's first truly awesome game IMO.
Strange that I completely agree with you on Dark Messiah, but not Arx Fatalis.
But I dont think Dishonored is very good either.

KenTWOu
16th Jan 2013, 07:19
You're missing the point. If we're going to talk about candles being blown out and enemies not noticing certain things, DX:HR can't get a pass because the enemies fail to notice things as well.
DXHR isn't about thievery! It doesn't have similarities with Thief series, Dishonored obviously has them! Anyway Dishonored guards ignore doors, chests completely! DXHR guards notice opening of doors, windows, wardrobes, drawers, lockers... DXHR guards clearly win! There is no point to discuss this!


Every time I hacked a WOL no one was near...
Dishonored has several places where you can easily do that. The second mission already has such place, Sokolov's mission has such places. I tried this several times. Hell, I've spent over 120 hours on Dishonored (I've spent more hours on DXHR). They don't notice that WOL was hacked!


So why are you slamming Dishonored for "not doing basic stuff?" (Your words not mine.) You're missing the point, you mentioned no one noticing candles being blown out, again, in DX:HR, the guards don't even notice a FRIDGE that shouldn't be there. Both games have there own issues when it comes to this but you're attempting to pass it off as if it's just Dishonored.
Man, I'm not slamming Dishonored. DXHR has fridges, Dishonored has similar situation with unconscious bodies, I completely ignore such fundamental stuff when I criticize AI. Just explain it to nomotog that it's really hard to fix that serious fundamental problem that almost every stealth game has! Thief 3 has it, Splinter Cell 3 has it, Deus Ex has it, you name it. As far as i know nobody solves this thing! There are many such fundamental problems in stealth genre. For example, shadow and silhouette detection. Because even simplified ray tracing which AI use for player visual detection demands tons of hardware power if you begin to use it for everything.


So what if Thief 3 solved it? This thread is about comparing and contrasting Dishonored and DX:HR, not Thief 3.
Dishonored devs (Harvey Smith and Raphael Colantonio) said several times during different interviews that they keep Thief series in mind during Dishonored development, that they are huge fans of Thief series. They clearly made they game about thievery and creative kills. DXHR doesn't show you statistic screen where you can see exact amount of money you stole during the mission. Dishonored shows you such statistic screen, so it has strong focus on loot, it has safes, you can steal NPC's purses, NPC's keys, etc... DXHR doesn't have that stuff and that thievery focus, Deus Ex 1,2 don't have that focus also! That's why I compare Dishonored with Thief 3. But Splinter Cell 3 Chaos Theory has tons of similarities with DXHR, because both games about infiltrations! And Chaos Theory clearly wins because it has the most impressive stealth AI. It's even better than Thief 3 AI because it has slightly more features and it's much more polished. But it doesn't change the fact that DXHR has better AI than Dishonored!


Again, I've been caught leaning. Maybe I did do it wrong when I got caught...
I already explain this leaning mechanism to you. AI doesn't notice your head! You just do it wrong.


The targets didn't stand still for me.
I didn't say that all targets stand still. I said that some of them even stand still. For example, one of the Pendleton brothers, Daud, Martin. They just stand and wait you. They don't move through level like Thaddeus Campbell or Lady Boyle, so you have tons of opportunities to kill both of them.


And you can't blink out of every situation without being unoticed. You can blink into a bad sitaution and enemies will notice you and you can blink out and they'll still yell "Witchcraft!", ring the alarm and look for you.
Yeah, they notice you, but you still can blink out! And the worst thing. They forces you to take Blink in the beginning of the game! For example, 'Mark of the Ninja' also has Blink ability (the Mark of Serenity), but it forces you to use it only during one level! And if you choose that ability you lost all distraction items. So you have huge advantage and huge disadvantages. It's called balance! Unfortunately Dishonored doesn't have that balance.


Again, you don't have to use all the powers. You said you got all the achievements right? And you played through twice right? So when did you get your one for not playing with any upgrades? First or second run?
First run. But sometimes during the first run I spent runes and tried different power/ability/gadget combinations.


This does absolutely nothing to support your claim.
Really? DXHR game director explains that they made the game harder to force player to try different approaches!!! Dishonored devs don't do it! They clearly made the game for casual players, they made power fantasy. I already gave you several examples of it. There is no point to possess people and steal something, because they don't notice when you steal something right in front of their noses! There is no point to use keyholes, because enemies doesn't see/hear door opening and leaning makes your head invisible! Because of these problems some really impressive power features don't make sense in some situations.


More does not always mean better...
Again you didn't get the point! DXHR has non-lethal weapons for every possible situation. One enemy - takedown, shocker, very slow tranquilize rifle. Two enemies - double takedown, takedown + shocker, different grenades. Several enemies - PEPS, shocker + double takedown, different grenades. Short distance - shocker, takedown, double takedown. Medium distance - shocker, grenades. Long distance - tranquilize rifle, grenades... Cameras/turrets/robots - shocker, PEPS, EMI grenade. Tons of tactics and combinations! And you can make wall mines! It doesn't have more, it doesn't have less, it has enough non-lethal weapons! Dishonored has only two tools - choke hold and sleeping darts. Clearly, that's not enough especially for the game with such impressive chaos system!


Are you saying the weapons and powers don't allow for emergent gameplay?
I said that they allow impressive emergent gameplay. But unfortunately it's all about killing people! Even if you drop on somebody you can't immediately knock out him. He falls, stands up and you get an alert, because you can't choke alerted guard. But the player that choose lethal way could use 'death from above' ability.


Yes it does.
Yeah, of course I know about 'two' endings in MotN. But! These endings don't depend on your playstyle! They're not separate. You can ghost through the game and get both of them. You can kill everything that moves and still get both of them! If MotN will have similar moral endings and similar chaos system like Dishonored, I will demand more non-lethal weapons from MotN. That's it!


So if that's the most important feature why are you calling for more non-lethal weapons?
This is already hilarious. Emergent gameplay doesn't automatically mean violence and killing! The game has chaos system. The game has tutorial pop-up screen which forces you to not kill people. The game has good ending if you kill less people. The game allows you to not kill your main targets. But the game doesn't give you enough weapons/powers/gadgets to deal with usual enemies non-lethal way. It's a bad design decision! It's a bad game design document.


Ultimately, what does playing in a non-lethal way get you in DX: HR?
Sorry, but I just don't want to explain this. It's a huge offtopic and It's so obvious that there is no point to do it. But I admit that Dishonored has more consequences if that's what you mean. I already said that chaos system is impressive, but I think they should make it very very subtle (i.e. like Metro 2033). And I also gave few examples when devs didn't provide all possible consequences.

froghawk
16th Jan 2013, 15:12
The RPG shooter hybrid began with System Shock.

Huh, I guess you're right. For some reason I thought Cybermage and Strife came first, I guess because they're less technologically advanced.

Can you actually deny my complaints about Arx, though, despite what strengths you see?

CyberP
16th Jan 2013, 17:32
My lack of engagement with Arx essentially stems from the clunky combat,
Haven't played morrowind or oblivion then? It handles just how I expect it to. Define clunky?


constant bugs
Xbox version for me for most of my playthroughs (which has minimal bugs), but there is the recent Arx Libertatis fan patch/mod which fixes the majority of the PC bugs.


dull and bland environments
This is upsetting. shocking even. Each level is vastly different from the next! Plently of secrets to find, some books to read, puzzles to solve, gold to mine, locks to pick, herbs to pick to make medicine with. There is always something interesting around the corner and the environments couldn't be any better, especially since the game is set entirely underground, the amount of variation and interaction is amazing. Level design is great overall imo. There are no inconsistencies, obvious copy n paste, etc.
Disturbing.


lack of interesting characters
Yeah there is a lack of characters in general, but the ones that are there I find interesting- The Sisters of edurneum, the enemies, the friendly goblins. All the characters.
You can't expect to have intellectually stimulating philosophical debates with trolls or goblins, or the simple town folk now can you :)
Yeah they should probably have more lines too, but I find them far more interesting than the copy & paste skins, dialogue and voice acting from the Elder Scrolls characters.

,
and lamentable dialogue and voice acting.
Yeah you won't find dialogue on par with Deus Ex for example, but the voice acting certainly is- half of the actors are excellent, the other half are randoms pulled off of the sidewalk. But that is part of the charm, and the game has charm by the bucket load.

Maybe you were on your man-period whilst you played :p, I don't know. But Arx is in my top ten list for sure.
Sure it's not as great as Deus Ex or VTMB or System Shock 2, but it's gameplay and atmosphere is what I love it for most.

froghawk
16th Jan 2013, 18:18
Yes, I've played Morrowind and Oblivion and their combat is also dreadful. Like most open world games, they do a lot of things and most of it is crap.

Maybe I'll have to try it with the mod you speak of, but I find your shock at my reaction to the levels to be hilarious. The textures are absurdly dull, and yes, you can do the things you speak of, but there's no excitement to any of it. I don't feel compelled in any way to explore the levels - the world just doesn't draw me in. There is no atmosphere that I find alluring, quite unlike the 3 games you mentioned at the end of your post. I've tried it on multiple occasions - it just doesn't do it for me. It has an unusual UI and magic system, but beyond that it seems to be a pretty generic dungeon crawl RPG.

Darthassin
16th Jan 2013, 19:13
In my opinion:
Story: DX:HR >>> Dishonored ( x > y means x greater than y)
Character development: DX:HR >>> Dishonored
Narrative: DX:HR >>> Dishonored
Combat: DX:HR >> Dishonored
Stealth: DX:HR > Dishonored
Other "pillars" of gp: DX:HR >>> Dishonored
Exploration: DX:HR>>Dishonored
Choices and Cons.: DX:HR>>Dishonored
Lenght: DX:HR>>>>Dishonored
Sound design: DX:HR >> Dishonored
Soundtrack: DX:HR >>>> Dishonored
GFX Engine: DX:HR =< Dishonored
Art Direction: IMO: DX:HR >>> Dishonored

CyberP
17th Jan 2013, 02:52
The textures are absurdly dull,
:scratch:



and yes, you can do the things you speak of, but there's no excitement to any of it.
I don't feel compelled in any way to explore the levels - the world just doesn't draw me in. There is no atmosphere that I find alluring, quite unlike the 3 games you mentioned at the end of your post. I've tried it on multiple occasions - it just doesn't do it for me.
It is worthy of the LGS legacy. Sure It has it's flaws, but the game world is not one. The atmosphere is great.


but beyond that it seems to be a pretty generic dungeon crawl RPG. Please point me to these other dungeon crawlers that are like Arx, so I can play them immediately.
There are none that I know of other than Ultima Underworld 1 & 2, which Arx was intended to be a sequal to.

HERESY
17th Jan 2013, 03:10
DXHR isn't about thievery! It doesn't have similarities with Thief series, Dishonored obviously has them! Anyway Dishonored guards ignore doors, chests completely! DXHR guards notice opening of doors, windows, wardrobes, drawers, lockers... DXHR guards clearly win! There is no point to discuss this!

Please stop with the red-herrings.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

We are NOT talking about Thief or Hitman Absolution or ANY game aside from Dishonored and DX:HR. Next you'll tell us it isn't about shooting because you can't mod the weapons like you would this game or that game. Please, for the sake of the thread; focus on these two games because that is what this thread is about.

Do you steal things in DX:HR? Yes. Do those things help your progress? Yes. Therefore, the game is very much about thievery. Again, the guards in DX:HR don't notice things as well, so what is your point?


Dishonored has several places where you can easily do that. The second mission already has such place, Sokolov's mission has such places. I tried this several times. Hell, I've spent over 120 hours on Dishonored (I've spent more hours on DXHR). They don't notice that WOL was hacked!

Every time I hacked it I either took the guards out or I waited until no guards were around. I've already stated that you can take the tanks out, the guards notice they're no longer working but don't investigate but at least they acknowledge something in the environment is off. In HR, you can slide a fridge into the middle of a warzone and no one is going to say anything.


Man, I'm not slamming Dishonored.

I don't care if you do or don't I'm simply partaking in a discussion. You can worship your Dishonored disk or crack it into a billion pieces. I don't get paid by Bethesda or Arkane, nor am I paid by Eidos. I'm simply voicing my opinion on the matter.


DXHR has fridges, Dishonored has similar situation with unconscious bodies, I completely ignore such fundamental stuff when I criticize AI.

Yet you spoke of unconscious bodies in your first post in the thread. That would mean you don't completely ignore such things when criticizing the AI.


Just explain it to nomotog that it's really hard to fix that serious fundamental problem that almost every stealth game has! Thief 3 has it, Splinter Cell 3 has it, Deus Ex has it, you name it. As far as i know nobody solves this thing! There are many such fundamental problems in stealth genre. For example, shadow and silhouette detection. Because even simplified ray tracing which AI use for player visual detection demands tons of hardware power if you begin to use it for everything.

See above and we aren't talking about any other game except for Dishonored and HR. We're comparing and contrasting these two games, no other games, so please stick to the topic.


Dishonored devs (Harvey Smith and Raphael Colantonio) said several times during different interviews that they keep Thief series in mind during Dishonored development, that they are huge fans of Thief series.

So?


They clearly made they game about thievery and creative kills. DXHR doesn't show you statistic screen where you can see exact amount of money you stole during the mission.

So? Dishonored also lacks a MAP and Dishonored only has a map you can see on posts/walls. Does that mean it isn't about exploration? LOL.


Dishonored shows you such statistic screen, so it has strong focus on loot, it has safes, you can steal NPC's purses, NPC's keys, etc... DXHR doesn't have that stuff and that thievery focus, Deus Ex 1,2 don't have that focus also!

I don't know what version of HR you played, but you can knock down NPCs and take their goods, you can rob the guys selling you weapons, you can knock out guards search them for ammo, you can steal passwords, etc.


That's why I compare Dishonored with Thief 3. But Splinter Cell 3 Chaos Theory has tons of similarities with DXHR, because both games about infiltrations! And Chaos Theory clearly wins because it has the most impressive stealth AI. It's even better than Thief 3 AI because it has slightly more features and it's much more polished. But it doesn't change the fact that DXHR has better AI than Dishonored!

For the 100th time, we aren't talking about any other game. When you reply back, make sure you just focus on the two games mentioned in the thread title. DISHONORED and DX:HR.


I already explain this leaning mechanism to you. AI doesn't notice your head! You just do it wrong.

And I said that maybe I did do it wrong so why are you mentioning it again?


I didn't say that all targets stand still. I said that some of them even stand still. For example, one of the Pendleton brothers, Daud, Martin. They just stand and wait you. They don't move through level like Thaddeus Campbell or Lady Boyle, so you have tons of opportunities to kill both of them.

Where did the bosses of HR go? Did they traverse throughout the levels?


Yeah, they notice you, but you still can blink out! And the worst thing. They forces you to take Blink in the beginning of the game!

You can still blink out, but once you're noticed you're noticed. and any achievement or ghost you were looking to be credited for at the end of the mission goes up in smoke.


For example, 'Mark of the Ninja' also has Blink ability (the Mark of Serenity), but it forces you to use it only during one level! And if you choose that ability you lost all distraction items. So you have huge advantage and huge disadvantages. It's called balance! Unfortunately Dishonored doesn't have that balance.

Again, balance is your opinion. They give you the option of not using Blink. You don't want to use it? Don't select it as a power.


First run. But sometimes during the first run I spent runes and tried different power/ability/gadget combinations.

So let me get this straight, you played the game twice, for 120 hours (I didn't even know the game kept play time) and on your first run you played the game with no power ups, aside from Blink, and you got the achievement for that?


Really? DXHR game director explains that they made the game harder to force player to try different approaches!!! Dishonored devs don't do it!

You were there when Arkane made the game? How do YOU know what they did or didn't do?


They clearly made the game for casual players, they made power fantasy.

Your opinion.


I already gave you several examples of it. There is no point to possess people and steal something, because they don't notice when you steal something right in front of their noses!

You don't have to just possess people. You can possess rats and fish so you aren't noticed.


There is no point to use keyholes, because enemies doesn't see/hear door opening and leaning makes your head invisible! Because of these problems some really impressive power features don't make sense in some situations.

We've discussed the leaning thing. Concerning the doors, I've only used the keyholes a couple of times so I could map out what I was going to do. Certain powers made no sense to me because I wasn’t playing in a way that required them. I needed possession but didn’t need the health. I needed the ability to see through the walls but didn’t need the wind power up. Every power up I had, I was able to use it to full advantage.


Again you didn't get the point! DXHR has non-lethal weapons for every possible situation. ..It doesn't have more, it doesn't have less, and it has enough non-lethal weapons! Dishonored has only two tools - choke hold and sleeping darts. Clearly, that's not enough especially for the game with such impressive chaos system!

Clearly it is enough which is why they provide you with achievements for playing that way. I don't need all those nifty gadgets to get through the game. You want them you don't need them. LOL@saying it doesn’t have more or less but then talking about how Dishonored only has two and needs more. Listen, if they wanted you to have more you would have more. Why would you spend 120 hours on a game you have so many complaints about? Let me give you an example of something I did, and I’m only brining this up to prove a point. I traded in Darksiders 2 because I was disappointed with it. I shelved Uncharted 3 and will NEVER pick it up again because I didn’t like the way Nate was running all over the place when I barely moved him. See, I don’t like those games; they need improvements so I felt so strongly about them I stopped playing them. So my question to you, again, is why would you play a game for 120 hours knowing you require more from it?


I said that they allow impressive emergent gameplay. But unfortunately it's all about killing people! Even if you drop on somebody you can't immediately knock out him. He falls, stands up and you get an alert, because you can't choke alerted guard. But the player that choose lethal way could use 'death from above' ability.

If you want to play non-lethal, you use the powers I listed. So what if you can make a gas grenade and use it to knock out 5 guys? They're non-lethal approach seems to me more of a stealth approach that limits what you can do if you go that route. I don't see a problem with it.



Yeah, of course I know about 'two' endings in MotN. But! These endings don't depend on your playstyle! They're not separate. You can ghost through the game and get both of them. You can kill everything that moves and still get both of them! If MotN will have similar moral endings and similar chaos system like Dishonored, I will demand more non-lethal weapons from MotN. That's it!

I was simply correcting you on the fact that the game has multiple endings. You said the game didn't have multiple endings and provided no clarity until it was brought to your attention just now, but let's move on.



This is already hilarious. Emergent gameplay doesn't automatically mean violence and killing!

This is hilarious. You don't want me to start pointing out the real comedy, I'd end up with so many warnings and points I'd be on the way out the door again...


The game has chaos system. The game has tutorial pop-up screen which forces you to not kill people. The game has good ending if you kill less people. The game allows you to not kill your main targets. But the game doesn't give you enough weapons/powers/gadgets to deal with usual enemies non-lethal way. It's a bad design decision! It's a bad game design document.

Your non-lethal way is to stay out of their way/sight, choke them out or put them to sleep with a dart. That is more than enough to get through the game.


Sorry, but I just don't want to explain this. It's a huge offtopic and It's so obvious that there is no point to do it.

It's not off-topic. We're comparing and contrasting the two games, so if we're going to compare and contrast the AI, the gadgets you keep lusting for and everything else you find wrong with the game, it only makes sense to talk about the endings of both games and how your play style will influence it. The ending you get depends on CHAOS right? Weren't you the one talking about CHAOS for a couple of posts now?


But I admit that Dishonored has more consequences if that's what you mean.

I meant what I said.


I already said that chaos system is impressive, but I think they should make it very very subtle (i.e. like Metro 2033). And I also gave few examples when devs didn't provide all possible consequences.

Huh?

HERESY
17th Jan 2013, 03:16
Thanks! I'm curious as to which aspects you disagree with, since your posts on the subject seem very level-headed (aside from avoiding Deus Ex because it is 'a relic' - relic or not, it's far better than any of the games discussed here - and this is coming from someone who absolutely cannot get into Arx Fatalis, no matter how hard I try).

I'll answer this when I get back tommorow.

KenTWOu
19th Jan 2013, 10:41
Do you steal things in DX:HR? Yes. Do those things help your progress? Yes.
Last time I played DXHR, I can't find purses and keys on NPCs' belts there. Therefore, DXHR isn't about thievery, it doesn't have the same focus on thievery as Thief and Dishonored. As I said It's about infiltration! It's obvious enough. It even has different level design principles, DXHR level design is all about obstacles. That's why it has mines, lasers, turrets, surveillance cameras, security systems, robots, alerts states, passwords and logins.


Again, the guards in DX:HR don't notice things as well, so what is your point?
My point is pretty clear. DXHR guards notice more things. Especially more basic things, that's very important for stealth play styles and for navigation through levels. Therefore, DXHR AI is much better and more challenging.


I've already stated that you can take the tanks out, the guards notice they're no longer working but don't investigate but at least they acknowledge something in the environment is off. In HR, you can slide a fridge into the middle of a warzone and no one is going to say anything.
Any device in Dishonored that uses tanks is a stationary device. Of course, sometimes they notice that because that thing is stationary! It's very easy to implement such AI routine. While fridge is a mobile object! I've already said that this fridge situation is similar to unconscious bodies in Dishonored. You can move one unconscious body from one place to another in Dishonored (and in DXHR too) and you won't get appropriate reaction from guards. Because it's really hard to make believable algorithm for that. It's really hard to teach AI to notice small changes in objects' positions, remember these objects and make distinctions between them.

Here is a stealth walkthrough (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIStCpas65A) of Hitman: Blood Money, look at this moment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cIStCpas65A#t=105s) (1m 45s). AI knows how to take any potentially danger movable object, takes it in his hand and puts it in weapon stashes in a security room. That's why player hides his sniper rifle in a briefcase and throws it over a fence. At 1 min 45 sec you clearly see that AI doesn't work as good as it should. And player clearly exploits AI issue. He exploits the fact that AI doesn't understand that player takes briefcase in his hand, AI doesn't notice that weapon was in player's hands before. Because AI doesn't have memory. Moreover, you can take that weapon from that weapon stash and throw it right in the middle of the room and every time AI will stand up, take that prohibited weapon and put it in the stash. You can throw it again, AI will put it again. You can throw it again, AI will put it again. And every time he will say something like: "Who dropped this..." It's a typical exploit of AI simplifications. Make the same thing several times and you will get the same AI reaction which proves that AI is 'stupid'.

That's why design wise will be better to completely ignore some of these problems and don't spent your development resources on this. That's why in many stealth games Ai notices unconscious bodies. But doesn't notice dropped weapons, small items from your inventory, big items and these fridges. And doesn't notice when you take these objects from one place to another. Dishonored/DXHR guards forget about dead bodies completely after they found them because it's believable! Usual guard can't resurrect dead people anyway.

Remember Hitman's AI could take that weapon and put it in special weapon stash. Because almost every level has some kind of security room. And that's really impressive. DXHR guards can't take that fridge, they aren't strong enough, they aren't augmented and they don't know where to put it. There is no Lost & Found room for fridges.

So what should they do with the fridge? They should say they notice it? OK. Imagine a guard says something like this: "There is a fridge over there!" Than guard looks in another direction because he is searching you and you move that fridge and hide behind it again, cause fridge is a mobile cover. That guard looks at this fridge again and... obviously he doesn't have memory, that's why he will say: "There is a fridge over there!" Now you should understand that "guards notice fridges" doesn't fix this situation at all! Because guards don't have separate memory. This fridge situation is still absurd. But developers spent they resources on additional audio cues for every NPC and every big object like box, fridge, xerox... Was it so important? No!

Nobody fixes this, nobody makes such thing believable. That's why I don't compare stationary and mobile objects to each other and don't think about them. And don't think that fridge problem is so crucial for gameplay.


Yet you spoke of unconscious bodies in your first post in the thread. That would mean you don't completely ignore such things when criticizing the AI.
I've said they don't wake up each other and can't hear unconscious bodies snore and bodies disappear after awhile. I understand why developers made that snore. They want to give a player information about bodies' positions, but they should tone down that sound. Or make it significantly louder during using power abilities or the Heart. Because that snore makes AI completely deaf.



You can still blink out, but once you're noticed you're noticed. and any achievement or ghost you were looking to be credited for at the end of the mission goes up in smoke.
Yeah, because crazy achievements are so important when we talk about balance of any game :)



Again, balance is your opinion. They give you the option of not using Blink. You don't want to use it? Don't select it as a power.
Nope! They force me to use it. Dishonored level design seriously depends on Blink ability! Why? Because developers perfectly know that you have that ability in any mission and they make their levels around that fact. That's the problem! You can spend several minutes to get to the balcony in the second mission, but Blink allows you to get there almost instantly. And the most important issue, your mana regenerates after that. That's a pretty weird balance! That makes double jump power completely pointless for exploration.


You were there when Arkane made the game? How do YOU know what they did or didn't do?
One of the former Arkane developers said this. Said that they make the game easier during focus group tests. And it's really obvious when you start to play the game. For example, during Lady Boyle assassination her mystery admirer finds you almost instantly. Why? Because devs don't want to hide non-lethal approach from casual player. During the second mission the first two guards explain you non-lethal way to get rid of Overseer Campbell. Why? Because devs don't want to hide non-lethal approach from casual player. Et cetera.


Your opinion.
And that yours :) Man, that argument doesn't work here! Read professional journalists, some of them think the same. For example, RockPaperShotgun doesn't give Dishonored GOTY award for this reason. They clearly explain it in few articles that the game is about power fantasy, it's good, it's fun but it's not challenging and they quickly lost interest in it. Some players (myself included) said the same thing on Arkane forums. Yeah, DXHR has health/energy regeneration, but DXHR has better balance, guards are smarter (so you can easily make a mistake when you just open a door or take something from desk drawer), guards with shotguns quickly kill you in close quarter. One shot on the highest difficulty! And Adam doesn't have as overpowered as strong abilities as Corvo.

Check this (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-12-21-games-we-played-in-2012) out!


Disappointment: Dishonored (Arkane, Bethesda)

This will earn me some flack, I know. Caveats: 1) I don't like stealth games; 2) Dishonored inflamed my completist/perfectionist glands because I wasn't good enough at it; 3) I got stuck at a bug halfway through and never finished it.

Actually, I did enjoy it, and will finish it at some point but I was disappointed in the AI, and the fact that you were offered so many options but encouraged strongly to choose those I found least entertaining: stealth and mercy. Make of that what you will.



You don't have to just possess people. You can possess rats and fish so you aren't noticed.
I don't say that powers are pointless, I said that some really impressive power features don't make sense in some situations. Like double jump for example.


Clearly it is enough which is why they provide you with achievements for playing that way.
LOL, stop saying that non sense. Two non-lethal tools aren't enough for many many many different situations! When you deal with two enemies, group of enemies especially after alert. Hell, you can't even choke hold dogs! Because crossbow is a very slow weapon and you have only 10 sleeping darts! Moreover, you can't upgrade sleeping darts amount in your inventory! That's why non-lethal walkthrough is very repetitive, bland, dumb, doesn't have emergency, doesn't show the most important systems of the game, doesn't explain systemic approach. Non-lethal Dishonored is a dreadful game! Just read Dishonored forums, many players said about this for a reason. But you said non sense because you like this game very much. That's it. DXHR simply gave you more choices, I tried explain them briefly when I tell about different enemy groups and different distances. BUT Dishonored action approach is good enough: you have only three weapons but lots of powers and ammo types to get different tactics, and you can creatively mix them.


I don't need all those nifty gadgets to get through the game...
Yeah, because we all know that your play style is the most important thing! While I'm talking not only about my play style which this game clearly doesn't support. I'm talking about the range of play styles. DXHR range is simply much wider!


Why would you spend 120 hours on a game you have so many complaints about?
High-chaos Dishonored is a fantastic action game with tons of cool systems and memorable ending, but mediocre stealth game. By the way, you can't trade in PC games, almost every PC game has a serial key which you can use only once, that's why you must tie it to your online profile. DRM, you know. And it's really hard to make separate profile for every game and then try to sell that profile to somebody.

froghawk
19th Jan 2013, 16:31
It even has different level design principles, DXHR level design is all about obstacles. That's why it has mines, lasers, turrets, surveillance cameras, security systems, robots, alerts states, passwords and logins.

So watchtowers, walls of light, arc pylons, tripwire traps, alarms, etc.?

HERESY
19th Jan 2013, 19:08
@KenTWOu, this exchange is now unworthy of my time. I asked you to stop talking about games that clearly have nothing to do with this topic but you insist on citing Hitman and other games to prove your point. All I needed to do was glance through and see Hitman. I'm not going to even waste my time reading the post. You can have the last word but I'm moving the hell on.

@ froghawk, my apologies for responding so late. As you can see I've been busy. In regards to my comment and disagreement, after reading the post again, I can say that my disagreement was based on something I misread.

KenTWOu
1st Feb 2013, 04:10
So watchtowers, walls of light, arc pylons, tripwire traps, alarms, etc.?
Yeah, DIshonored has these things but it doesn't change anything. Because Dishonored vertical level design gives you too much freedom. Especially when Corvo has default Blink ability and Mirror's Edge/Crysis 2 acrobatics. Its level design is all about freedom of movement when almost every route is obvious enough. And every level has too many routes so these things don't create real obstacles. And these routes are so obvious that it makes speedrun walkthroughs really pointless. And makes ghosting very easy and unchallenging especially if you use Blink. Of course, I don't want to say that such level design is bad, it's really awesome. It's just not about infiltration. And guess what, Thief 3 has similar ideas.



@KenTWOu, this exchange is now unworthy of my time. I asked you to stop talking about games that clearly have nothing to do with this topic but you insist on citing Hitman and other games to prove your point...
It's a pretty obvious, I think. You find a certain fundamental flaw in DXHR AI behavior. I can't prove you that this flaw is really fundamental without naming other stealth games and giving you few examples of it. Now I give these examples to you and prove my point. Even Dishonored has that flaw. And you're saying this is offtopic? Yeah, sure! You can say everything you want, but DXHR is a much better game than Dishonored. And you can't prove otherwise.