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View Full Version : should have lethal takedowns (the REAL way)



Eddo36
10th Jun 2012, 17:36
I would assume that non-lethal takedowns would be noisier than lethal ones. But anyways, maybe in a future game or any chance there's another upcoming DLC for HR, here is the real way Adam Jenson should do a lethal takedown.

There is a myth going on about slitting somebody's throat with a knife is a silent kill. It is anything but silent. The enemy will gurgle and thrash around until his brains run out of oxygen, creating a lot of noise in the process.

No, if you want a silent kill, Jensen gotta put his arm blade (or something with a shorter blade, say a combat knife) at the indent at the base of the enemy's skull (bone is thin there) and slam upward at a 45-degree angle. Jenson'll scramble the medulla oblongata and the motor senses are cut off immediately. Now THAT's a silent kill.

I really hope it's implemented, because non-silent lethal takedowns while having completely silent non-lethal ones is pretty dumb in my opinion.

Ashpolt
10th Jun 2012, 17:53
Gameplay > Realism.

sonicsidewinder
10th Jun 2012, 19:37
Eugh... made my spine tingle that did.

Eddo36
10th Jun 2012, 21:55
Gameplay > Realism.

Not when gameplay is too abstract.

TrickyVein
10th Jun 2012, 22:04
Why not? I get plenty of realism in RL. Playing games should be fun, and any sounds or effects, visual or otherwise should bolster that experience.

vallux
10th Jun 2012, 22:25
Never got the logic behind non-lethal being silent and lethal loud as heck. I mean stabbing someone quickly and having the dude fall down is pretty silent...opposed to the loud cracking and snapping of bones not to mention the sound of a dude thrashing around while being choked.

AlexOfSpades
10th Jun 2012, 23:00
The whole takedown idea is stupid

68_pie
10th Jun 2012, 23:12
Never got the logic behind non-lethal being silent and lethal loud as heck. I mean stabbing someone quickly and having the dude fall down is pretty silent...opposed to the loud cracking and snapping of bones not to mention the sound of a dude thrashing around while being choked.

It's not logical but it is more balanced than having it the other way around.


The whole takedown idea is stupid

QFT

Eddo36
11th Jun 2012, 01:35
It's not logical but it is more balanced than having it the other way around.


More logical? The verisimilitude contradiction of takedowns aside, I thought those players who try to be nice and go for non-lethal should have an extra challenge for being nice.

Kodaemon
11th Jun 2012, 07:25
I thought those players who try to be nice and go for non-lethal should have an extra challenge for being nice.

This. Currently, there's just no reason to go lethal. The possibility of knocked-out enemies getting woken up by others is not enough, it can even be exploited to the player's benefit.

Either the lethal takedowns should be made silent and non-lethal loud, or make stunned enemies wake up by themselves after half a minute or so, maybe going into an extended alerted mode after that.

68_pie
11th Jun 2012, 15:58
More logical? The verisimilitude contradiction of takedowns aside, I thought those players who try to be nice and go for non-lethal should have an extra challenge for being nice.

Wait, why are you saying "more logical?"? I said it was more balanced (N.b. that's different to "well balanced").


This. Currently, there's just no reason to go lethal. The possibility of knocked-out enemies getting woken up by others is not enough, it can even be exploited to the player's benefit.

Either the lethal takedowns should be made silent and non-lethal loud, or make stunned enemies wake up by themselves after half a minute or so, maybe going into an extended alerted mode after that.

Or don't have takedowns. If lethal takedowns were silent then there would be no reason to go for non-lethal...well except for XP but I think we all agree that that system is completely broken.

Jerion
11th Jun 2012, 18:37
The issue I see (from my comfy armchair :P) with the takedowns is that use is that they are not mutually exclusive with having a weapon equipped. I go back to the Mirror's Edge system, where pushing the fire button with no weapon equipped (on PC, usually the mouse button) throws a punch, and various movements modify the particular attack (from basic right or left hook to a sliding kick, a jump kick, a knee-to-face KO, a knee-to-solar-plexus-to-floor vertical landing KO, etc). If you essentially drop in a very similar system to DX, where hand-to-hand/arm-sword-to-jugular melee combat is only (and automatically) available when the player's weapon is holstered, then it fits almost like a glove, right down to the inclusion of contextual animations. The key difference would have to be that where Mirror's Edge has a special key for disarming a target, when applied to DX that "special key" would have to be used to determine whether the attack is non-lethal (robot fist to the unsuspecting face), or lethal (arm-swords assemble!). Attached to a first person perspective, a short contact range, locational damage on enemies (a solid punch to the head will knock 'em out on their back, but it'll take a couple hard hits to the torso and hitting the arm will just make them mad), it fits in with the scene perfectly, and provides a risk-of-screwing-up effect that some of the more hardcore here have been whining about for quite a while (:D). Where a lethal attack is pretty much guaranteed to be one-hit-and-(s)he's-down, non-lethal requires more care and where multiple hits are required, speed is needed as well.

Caradoc
12th Jun 2012, 13:55
While takedowns in DX:HR are enjoyable and satisfying to watch, this system isn't perfect.

What I don't like about takedowns:

-Generally speaking the biggest downside with this system is that when I press the takedown key I suddenly become a passive observer. I wish I could actually do those moves realtime instead of just watching it. And there should be more strategy involved which leads me to my next complaint.

-Takedowns always succeed, all the time. You can never fail knocking/killing the enemy (bosses aside). And whats worse the game stops while you execute the takedown move. Other enemies just observe when jensen kills one their buddies.

-I understand why takedowns require energy. Otherwise they would be even more unbalanced. I just find it somewhat silly that augmented soldier needs energy to punch someone on the nose while he runs and jumps for hours without any need to restore his batteries.

-The animations are quite out of the place sometimes. Like when I'm sneaking slowly to a guard from behind Jensen doesn't strangle him quietly, rather i see him grabbing the guy's shoulder and punching him loudly on the nose.

-I love the hidden blades, but how come the leathal takedown always makes noise while non-leathal doesn't?

-Why does non-leathal takedown give you more EXP when it isn't harder to pull off? In my opinion non-leathal takedown should be more risky and harder than leathal one.

-Enemies don't have any means to defend against unbeatable Adam Jensen. Clearly some of the belltower guys should have some ideas how to defend themselves atleast when Adam attacks them at plain sight non-leathal way.

Just random thoughts about this gameplay mechanic.

Eddo36
15th Jun 2012, 07:30
Jensen never ever goes for a silent lethal takedown, he always has to make shiskabob of them.

Eddo36
24th Jun 2012, 20:20
By the way, anyone else think the lethal takedowns are all overkill? Does the reflex enhancer make Adam lose control of himself and get crazy?

JCpies
24th Jun 2012, 20:58
Depends on what kind of player you are. Lethal takedowns definitely make sense in a high tension fast paced combat situation though.

Zerim
24th Jun 2012, 21:38
There should be different buttons for high profile takedowns and low profile takedowns. So in total you would have four types of takedowns; a high profile and a low profile mode for both lethal and non-lethal takedowns. Use them depending on your mood! :)

68_pie
25th Jun 2012, 11:36
Nothing wrong with the suggestion, but I just want to say that while you're talking about the realism of the takedowns, the non-lethals are pretty silly. The only way you're going to knock someone out for so long without very likely killing or crippling them is by delivering an appropriate drug to their system.

If you asphyxiate someone or punch them in the jaw and they're out for half an hour, they're probably ****ed. Most of those people probably died from the injury, or at least needed cerebral augmentations to function again, just not while Jensen was around to growl about it.

You must not watch much MMA...