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View Full Version : The Next Deus Ex - new gameplay mechanic ideas anyone?



m G h m u o s
13th Apr 2012, 10:57
Anyone have any ideas for unusual or interesting gameplay mechanics that could be implemented for DX4? Unique or based off current/previous ideas?

- The Skills system - basically the system from DX1 could return in the form of 'nanite neuro-optogenic augmentations' or something where you use items like aug cans/prax kits (just probably more common) to upgrade your skills, so you can download training - Matrix-esque.

Or do you think it should take the Skyrim route and skills should just improve with use?


- Augmentation hacking - A weird idea I had that you could use a multitool item to hack enemies and disable their augmentations/mechanical parts or even a rare ammo type you could equip, basically a multitool projectile or something. It could bring a new level to boss fights and turn them into more of a puzzle for the hacker/stealth builds.

Then from this idea, I thought would it be cool if enemies in turn could also hack your augmentations? So you have to build up your own defence system (so you could basically make your own hack network with your chosen augmentations as major capture points or whatever)


- Grappling hook - I always liked jumping around and travelling in DX, though such an ability make cheapen certain augmentations or something, so it'd have to be very costly in terms of an augmentation slow or a significant amount of your inventory. Anyone think it could work?


- Weapon upgrades - I was trying to think of some unique/decent upgrades for stuff in DX, but the only one I could think of was a 'Compacting' upgrade where you can reduce the weapons size in your inventory. Anyone ever have any ideas for upgrades?

I was wondering if DX would benefit from further RPG elements, such as player/weapon/inventory weight?


DISCUSSZ0R AWAY

McFlabbergasty
16th Apr 2012, 01:40
I think being able to access two if not all three varieties of augmentation would be pretty neat. If this DX4 takes place some time soon/soon-ish after HR then the player might get the feeling that s/he is moving from the old world of augmentations, where it was just hanzer mechs versus nats, to the much more diverse playing field we see in the original DX.

Who's up for physio-pharmaceutical augmentation?

I do like your idea of hacking enemies' augs! I'm surprise I haven't seen something like that mentioned before. After all, something like that has happened in the original game and in HR, but never at the player's will.

Maybe for gameplay balancing purposes, we could have mechanical augmentations cost bio-energy (the DX way, not the HR way, sorry that was possibly the only thing about that game I hated) and be quite ubiquitous, but the catch is that these parts can be hacked.

Physio-pharmaceutical augs obviously cannot be hacked, but would provide only temporary boost of your strength/speed/whatever and then be discarded after use. A lot like steroids, or nootropic drugs.

And finally nano-augs, which I'm imagining would not be hackable (yet) so there must be some other way to balance them.

Maybe they cost a crap-ton of BE energy, or instead of BE energy they sap away directly at your health. But if the latter is the way nano-augs would work, obviously there's not going to be any nano health-regen. Personally I don't think that's a loss. I thought that got to be overpowered in DX1 anyway.

m G h m u o s
16th Apr 2012, 03:00
I was never really clear on physiopharmaceutical augs, I read them up on the wiki but.. are they still able to be activated/turned on and off? I haven't played DX:IW, not sure if any those kind of augs are included there

But as for your other idea, balancing nano-augmentations could be easily done through a variety of ways. Like you said it could just drain BE like crazy, or stamina, or the initial cost of the aug could be much much more expensive. I want to say nano augs should be susceptable to hacking as well, but it seems too easy to say..

Maybe mech augs can be hacked and just disabled, but nanoaugs could do something much worse like lowering your maximum health. Plus there could special enemy types or ammunition that can be used against specific augmentation types (against enemies and the player respectively)?

Tverdyj
16th Apr 2012, 03:46
hmm. A bit different, but I always thought it'd be cool to do a spin-off dealing with biotech augmentations--in which you essentially mutate your insides/gratf organs to gain abilities.

this could be some seriously blackest of the black markets, being a research tech newly discovered inad not implemented worldwide, but rather somehting existing on a very limited scale, while maintaining the largely cyberpunkish world.

m G h m u o s
16th Apr 2012, 13:06
That sounds interesting, kud31.. Are you just imagining an underground shop or group that you'd have to work to get into, to access the limited/cheaper augs?

I heard DX2 had a 'factions' system, though I'm not sure what that entails, your idea reminded me of it. Perhaps there could be more moral decisions, like the choice to betray that undercover agent in detroit, but with doing jobs for the blackmarket so they can grant you access to certain augs. You could choose jobs that affectively made you a harvester, a notch up from that bar man side mission in Hengsha, where you can forcible and gruesomely retrieve major mech augs or organs (ala Repo Men) or even nano augs (ala Syndicate).

Romeo
16th Apr 2012, 15:32
More based upon what you said about weapon mods, I'd just like to see a more in-depth system in general for that. Have a bigger stock increase accuracy, but also increase length. A bigger clip gives more rounds, but makes it taller. A barrel extension does more damage but also increases length. Not exactly novel, but it would play more in to a "Do I want one super-weapon, or multiple weak ones" kind of thinking.

m G h m u o s
16th Apr 2012, 16:50
Did you like the ammo system in DXHR, Romeo? How it used up space in your inventory I mean.

But yeah, seeing the level of weapon customization in games like Ghost Recon Future Soldier and Blacklight Retribution. It's why I raised the point about the weight of weapons/items, just to bring another element to help balance that kind of thing.

It was a little funny when you'd add a silencer to your pistol or rifle and it'd shrink in size in your inv lol can't say I wasn't glad for the extra space though

I do remember all that discussion about bringing multiple versions of weapons into DX or whether it should stick to the main archetypes.

nomotog
16th Apr 2012, 17:01
Hacking enemies would be nice. Though I wonder if it would feel like cyber magic or not.

With weapon augments. I Like the idea of them being attachments to the item that increased the size. It would be neat to see your new sniper scope taking up it's own space in inventory. I'd also add the ability to remove them and attach them to other weapons.

Ammo types should come back. Explosive ammo, hacking ammo (So you can hack things from far away), fire ammo, EMP ammo, all kinds of ammo. There also needs to be a system where your inventory dosen't get to full of all these ammo types. (Maybe they you could stack different verity on top of each other)

Melee weapons should come back.

m G h m u o s
16th Apr 2012, 20:27
Hacking enemies would be nice. Though I wonder if it would feel like cyber magic or not.
Are you sure its not missing the technical jargon lol? But I kinda get what you mean. The idea of shooting someone or something and being able to hack it from anywhere feels off.. Feels like it could do with some gameplay aspect of hacking to keep the tagged enemy/hack ammo device whatever in sight or aimed on, or maybe some frequency mini-game you have to do accurize the signal to the hack or something. Just to give it another level, to balance the reward with skill/challenge.

I was also thinking about how I'd like to see a stamina bar again and wondered if a game has ever implemented 'localised stamina', similar to the health system, and if it'd even have any point lol

Zerim
16th Apr 2012, 20:53
I really just want good AI.

Smart AI by itself can give you the best gameplay ever. Everything else is just details if you ask me.

Tverdyj
16th Apr 2012, 21:57
That sounds interesting, kud31.. Are you just imagining an underground shop or group that you'd have to work to get into, to access the limited/cheaper augs?

I heard DX2 had a 'factions' system, though I'm not sure what that entails, your idea reminded me of it. Perhaps there could be more moral decisions, like the choice to betray that undercover agent in detroit, but with doing jobs for the blackmarket so they can grant you access to certain augs. You could choose jobs that affectively made you a harvester, a notch up from that bar man side mission in Hengsha, where you can forcible and gruesomely retrieve major mech augs or organs (ala Repo Men) or even nano augs (ala Syndicate).

I was thinking of using a previosly unexplored setting-Russia, Africa, India, South America.

you have a government/corporate science group with some genius scientist who makes enormous breakthroughs in biotec/genetic tampering. the protagonist is thrown into this somehow--cop/special forces/P.I, whatever. the scientist is on the run, someone like the Illuminati are trying to take over the whole thing, by arranging a coup d'etat in the country. You know too much, and you are a target. you can either want to help and spread the tech or destroy the creator of the tech 9who made you what you are), who probably found backing in organised crime in order to survive. could play around with something like "instincts"--if you use too many powers too soon, or if you sustain too much damage, animal instincts take over, and you either fight to the death or flee uncontrollably.

Idk, tbh. I'm just throwing out ideas, like I said, i'm like to see this as a spinoff, rather then the main story line.

m G h m u o s
16th Apr 2012, 22:16
I really just want good AI.

Smart AI by itself can give you the best gameplay ever. Everything else is just details if you ask me.
Off topic, but can you give me any examples of games with good/exceptional AI? :/ I can't think of any one moment that really stands out in all my years of gaming that an AI has made me go "oh wow that was smart". Loads of "oh wtf how did they see/shoot me" though lol. The most memorable moments are more like moments of immersion, Half Life comes to mind.


I was thinking of using a previosly unexplored setting-Russia, Africa, India, South America.

you have a government/corporate science group with some genius scientist who makes enormous breakthroughs in biotec/genetic tampering. the protagonist is thrown into this somehow--cop/special forces/P.I, whatever. the scientist is on the run, someone like the Illuminati are trying to take over the whole thing, by arranging a coup d'etat in the country. You know too much, and you are a target. you can either want to help and spread the tech or destroy the creator of the tech 9who made you what you are), who probably found backing in organised crime in order to survive. could play around with something like "instincts"--if you use too many powers too soon, or if you sustain too much damage, animal instincts take over, and you either fight to the death or flee uncontrollably.

Idk, tbh. I'm just throwing out ideas, like I said, i'm like to see this as a spinoff, rather then the main story line.
Thats all cool :) Your short synopsis made me imagine a mission where you have to pursue a target through a central hub and you have to actually chase the person through streets and across rooftops. I really want to see more unusual settings for cyber-punk stuff too, I had South Africa on my mind but in the end it comes down the imagery of buildings and lights for that 'cyberpunk' theme.

As for your 'instincts' idea, you think how that could be further tied into the DX lore? Like nano/mech augs just toxify the body and some new type of aug releases the body/minds own full potential?

Angel-A
16th Apr 2012, 22:22
Is anybody besides me hoping for legitimately a female or non-white protagonist? DX and IW both offered appearance choice but the canon versions are of course Caucasian male for all three games. One of the things Deus Ex is recognized for is breaking from the standard, and a main character who isn't just another white guy would certainly would be a great thing to see when franchises are dominated by them.

Tverdyj
16th Apr 2012, 22:29
Off topic, but can you give me any examples of games with good/exceptional AI? :/ I can't think of any one moment that really stands out in all my years of gaming that an AI has made me go "oh wow that was smart". Loads of "oh wtf how did they see/shoot me" though lol. The most memorable moments are more like moments of immersion, Half Life comes to mind.


Thats all cool :) Your short synopsis made me imagine a mission where you have to pursue a target through a central hub and you have to actually chase the person through streets and across rooftops. I really want to see more unusual settings for cyber-punk stuff too, I had South Africa on my mind but in the end it comes down the imagery of buildings and lights for that 'cyberpunk' theme.

As for your 'instincts' idea, you think how that could be further tied into the DX lore? Like nano/mech augs just toxify the body and some new type of aug releases the body/minds own full potential?

RE: AI. I know this wasn't at me, but S.T.A.L.K.E.R.'s AI really impressed me.

with regards to tying "instinct" stuff to DX lore, the easiest thing I could think of would be EMP bullets scrambling your systems. that, or using informational warfare to upload a virus into PC.

ofc, this could also be explained by experimental nanotech, where the nanites' programming still has elements of fight or flight, and they just respond to stimuli such as excessive damage by "taking over"

m G h m u o s
16th Apr 2012, 23:02
Is anybody besides me hoping for legitimately a female or non-white protagonist? DX and IW both offered appearance choice but the canon versions are of course Caucasian male for all three games. One of the things Deus Ex is recognized for is breaking from the standard, and a main character who isn't just another white guy would certainly would be a great thing to see when franchises are dominated by them.
I'd totally be up for female protagonist! As for prospects of optionality, I was wondering if DX would be suited for heavy character customisation that is typical in other RPGs. Making their face seems like a step too far, but how does changing appearance with clothes/hair sit with anyone?

EDIT: Kinda bad examples here lol. It occured to me personal aesthetics won't matter much in an singeplayer FPS, nevertheless DX1 did give you some optionality. I'm trying to think of other typical RPG elements to put a DX spin on.

Inventory. I actually liked the initial restrictive inventory (until I realised I had to carry some fire power for boss fights :P) but to accommodate for those who like the more traditional RPG system where you can carry a ridiculous amount of stuff then would a "digital inventory" work? Basically you can buy/check in stuff with a digital receipt or whatever and check out said item at appropriate shops or weapon vendors or something..?


with regards to tying "instinct" stuff to DX lore, the easiest thing I could think of would be EMP bullets scrambling your systems. that, or using informational warfare to upload a virus into PC.

ofc, this could also be explained by experimental nanotech, where the nanites' programming still has elements of fight or flight, and they just respond to stimuli such as excessive damage by "taking over"
I like the sound of EMP/scrabbler bullets. Anyway, so you'd basically get a strength/speed/accuracy boost when on low health? I'm trying to think of another game that uses some kind of 'instinct' system.. I want to say Far Cry..

Angel-A
16th Apr 2012, 23:43
I'd totally be up for female protagonist! As for prospects of optionality, I was wondering if DX would be suited for heavy character customisation that is typical in other RPGs. Making their face seems like a step too far, but how does changing appearance with clothes/hair sit with anyone?

EDIT: Kinda bad examples here lol. It occured to me personal aesthetics won't matter much in an singeplayer FPS, nevertheless DX1 did give you some optionality. I'm trying to think of other typical RPG elements to put a DX spin on.


I remember seeing a DX1 mod that lets one COMPLETELY customize JC Denton's appearance. Not just skin, but hair, face, clothes and stuff. I imagine mods can be made for super-duper aesthetic customization.

m G h m u o s
17th Apr 2012, 00:36
I remember seeing a DX1 mod that lets one COMPLETELY customize JC Denton's appearance. Not just skin, but hair, face, clothes and stuff. I imagine mods can be made for super-duper aesthetic customization.
If such a level of customization is actually in the vanilla of a DX, I'd like it if it was accomplished 'in-game' as much as possible, ie not with a option menu but with clothing shops and facial surgery places lol. But more than that, I think it'd be the most interesting if the characters responded to your appearance accordingly, for humourous and/or expositional purposes.

Anticitizen
17th Apr 2012, 01:06
I LOVE the idea of 'hacking people'. It's a recurring theme in the Ghost in the Shell franchise (to which Deus Ex owes a lot of influence, after all).

In Ghost in the Shell, Motoko Kusanagi, the squad leader of Section 9, was not only skilled in combat but hacking. In one episode of the Standalone Complex series, Section 9 is about to storm an office building in which a group of (augmented) terrorists are holding the office workers hostage. Kusanagi was able to remotely hack in to one of the augment's implants and use his eyes to get a visual count of where the terrorists were, how many were there, etc. She was also able to force one terrorist to shoot another (despite obvious resistance).

Now, how badass would that be in a game!? Instead of using the remote drone from DX1, you would have a hacking augment that would allow you to be able (so long as you're in a certain range) to hijack other aug's vision in order to scope out an area before you move into the scene... and as your skill/aug upgrades are increased, you could control that aug to varying levels... have him 'hear' a disturbance in a misleading direction and investigate in the wrong direction... or maybe 'accidentally' drop his rifle for just a second or two (so you can charge in)... maybe lose hearing and vision briefly, allowing you to sneak by without triggering a fight... and at the highest levels, turn on his teammates. You would be able to actually control that character remotely, and play as him... perhaps for a limited amount of time (maybe tie it to your battery level, so it would use energy like other augs so you can only do it for so long unless you keep eating candy bars!), or, it could be for an indefinite amount of time, but the control of the character might be a little slow or imprecise - aiming is a little harder, he doesn't move as fast, and doesn't have health regen, or 'looking through his eyes' is sort of low-resolution so you can't see as well to shoot, etc. So you could use him as a 'proxy soldier' for battle but he probably won't last long.

I think that would introduce an AWESOME new element that would fit in with the Deus Ex world very well. You could use the 'proxy soldier' to weaken defenses before you move in for the final kill, or maybe just use the soldier to explore areas without being spotted. Imagine hacking an enemy just so he could walk past the turret (which doesn't recognize him as a foe), and then you hack the turret's control panel THROUGH the soldier you're controlling!

And of course this would only work on augmented enemies, so it's not like a player could spam the ability all the time. Many enemies would not be augmented at all, and thus unhackable. And then various augmented enemies would have varying levels of security, just like the terminals in the game - level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc - and you'd have to go through the little 'hacking game' every time you attempted it. If you try to hack an enemy and fail, the enemy automatically goes into alarmed or even hostile mode...

There are a hundred things you could do with the idea. You could 'relax' enemy solders, causing them to drop out of hostile or alert status, for instance. The possibilities are plentiful.

...like I said, I LOVE this idea.

m G h m u o s
17th Apr 2012, 01:44
Love GiTS :D Totally forgot about that vision jack scenario, but I think the main thing is the "delivery system" of how you'd hack enemy augmentations. Hacking ammo/Projectile multitool? Cerebral nano-ship with hacking abilities? In DX:HR the purist hacker was wired in, but I'm not sure it'd be so fulfilling at extreme close range (unless you could 'plant' the hack for a later timed distraction).

I mean for the GiTS scenario, if you were close enough or had visual contact, then what use would you have for seeing through your enemies eyes? Then again this also brings question to mission structure and everything, I mean how about we take the back seat for some missions/side missions and just act as reconnaissance to gather intel for a bigger team to make a tactical insertion or whatever.

A lot of ideas can be thrown up in the air, but I feel like taking direct control of an enemy or making him commit suicide by shooting himself should be reserved for dedicated aug hack builds. I also find having an enemy shoot himself in the head to be really.. unimaginative lol. You could scan the enemy body for augs (or find records on a computer) and do much nastier things like having their arms/legs malfunction, suffocate underwater troops by disabling their internal rebreathers, cause major organ failure by reprogramming nanites inside their bodies, all sorts.

Disabling/manipulating augmentations is what interests me personally, but the Syndicate style of just having the enemy just go crazy and kill himself/team mates feels too simple for me lol.

Then again if neuro-chemical-optogenetic-augmentations come into play then it could be cool to have variants of CASIE augs to analyse psychological profiles, or from computer files, from inside their brain and use nanites to burst electricity to certain neurons, or good old pheromones, to create a ruckus so you can sneak by x10 without spending a bullet. Or of course some crazy mini-game where you can randomly stimulate parts of their brain with chemicals/nanites and they'll go do something crazy XD But thats what I was getting at really, that level of technology. If you can make a dude shoot his teammates and these kinda complex actions, then what happened to the just turning their brain off stage lol.

Mission structure ties into these kind of crazy ideas again, because you could go to all the effort of doing a hacker run or pacifist or no alert or no items and get the self satisfaction and maybe an achievement, but I think that kinda stuff should really reflect in-game with mission reports and appropriate rewards from armories or something. Not just if you kill a bunch of people and piss off an ex-sergeant but stuff right down to the amount of BE you use or the number of bullet shells you leave at a scene.

nomotog
17th Apr 2012, 03:40
Off topic, but can you give me any examples of games with good/exceptional AI? :/ I can't think of any one moment that really stands out in all my years of gaming that an AI has made me go "oh wow that was smart". Loads of "oh wtf how did they see/shoot me" though lol. The most memorable moments are more like moments of immersion, Half Life comes to mind.


Smart Kobold. It has a very advanced AI. It's also a good example of why smart AI is a bad thing.

Anticitizen
17th Apr 2012, 03:41
I mean for the GiTS scenario, if you were close enough or had visual contact, then what use would you have for seeing through your enemies eyes?

I was thinking that you'd have to be close enough for the enemy to appear on your radar. You could be right outside a room, or in a ventilation shaft or whatever, and as long as the person is close enough to be on your radar, you could initiate the hack attempt. This means that you couldn't control the person and send them running off to complete your entire mission for you - if you send them away and they get out of range, you lose the connection, and they 'snap out of it' - and probably immediately go into 'hostile' mode and alert everyone around them that something is up (so you would lose any 'ghost' achievements or whatever). Also, it doesn't have to just be enemies you hack - it could be any augs nearby, including citizens walking down the street. This brings up questions of morality, of course - which is something Deus Ex is already known for, so that would just add more/deeper elements to the current theme. Think of the police station mission, for example - if you fail to convince that officer to let you in the station, you could hack one of the perps inside the station and cause him to start attacking police officers - which would make them all go hostile against *him*. Meanwhile, you sneak in unnoticed because all the police are concerned about the guy inside who went berserk.

Anyway, I agree with most of your other points. I won't get into the debate about specifics of how the hacking will take place (is it a minigame like the typical hacking, or something else, etc). That's why playtesters exist :)

Though I will say it shouldn't be an 'ammo'. It should definitely be an aug/hacking skill that you upgrade to. There would be nothing lamer than a 'hacking gizmo' that you have to find and use. I think DX is interesting because of the choices of augmentations/skills you choose to incorporate into your playstyle. You can choose to beef yourself up as a war machine, or go for the slick stealth ninja type, the clever hacker, etc. It should fall under those guidelines and not be a weapon you can just come across and exploit. You'd need to choose it and dedicate Praxis points or whatever to its use, and choose to (possibly) sacrifice other augs in favor of it.

EDIT: Also, if you tie the 'hacking range' to your radar, you now have an incentive to spring for the radar increase aug, which is something I've NEVER gone for during my playthroughs of HR. I never once desired, while playing, the desire to see people on my radar at a longer range - and I don't think that having that aug would have changed my gameplay style in the slightest. Think about it - when you're in a large, open field-type area, you can physically SEE the other people in the distance. You don't need the radar for that. If you're in closed corridors and rooms, you have walls between you and them. They can't see you. Which means you'll almost always get in the default radar range of them before you have to deal with them at all, so it doesn't matter if you 'detected' them at 100 meters away or 50 - you still detected them before they saw you, and you could act accordingly. Therefore I saw the radar range aug as pointless. However, if you tied it to the people-hacking aug, you'd have a legit reason to want to increase your radar range, because you could hack any augs within that range if you had the proper hacking augs. You could even have 'hackable' targets on the radar be a different color or something. There are twelve soldiers in that room, according to your radar. Three of them are augs that are hackable. One of them has a security level of two, but he's mostly unaugmented/unarmored and is carrying a pistol. Another has a security level of three, and is carrying a machine pistol. The third has a security level of four - which is the hardest to hack - but he's armed with a heavy rifle and frag grenades. This gives you a choice - you can go for the easy hack and go for the guy with the pistol, and use him to attack the others just to create a distraction. Or you can go for the hard hack - but only if your hacking aug/skill level is good enough - and go for the guy with the heavy weaponry, who you could use to take out all the other soldiers, including himself. Or the guy inbetween. All of this would depend on your skill level, the level of your augs (both the radar level and the hacking aug level), and the decisions you make - are you just trying to create a distraction so you can sneak by, or are you trying to use these hacked soldiers to take out other soldiers, etc. The idea opens up whole new decision-making opportunities in gameplay. And I don't think it would be hard to implement. And it's something else that would set DX apart from all the other shooters out there. The more I think about it, the more I think it's an obvious enhancement to the franchise.

Tverdyj
17th Apr 2012, 07:40
I'd totally be up for female protagonist! As for prospects of optionality, I was wondering if DX would be suited for heavy character customisation that is typical in other RPGs. Making their face seems like a step too far, but how does changing appearance with clothes/hair sit with anyone?

EDIT: Kinda bad examples here lol. It occured to me personal aesthetics won't matter much in an singeplayer FPS, nevertheless DX1 did give you some optionality. I'm trying to think of other typical RPG elements to put a DX spin on.

Inventory. I actually liked the initial restrictive inventory (until I realised I had to carry some fire power for boss fights :P) but to accommodate for those who like the more traditional RPG system where you can carry a ridiculous amount of stuff then would a "digital inventory" work? Basically you can buy/check in stuff with a digital receipt or whatever and check out said item at appropriate shops or weapon vendors or something..?


I like the sound of EMP/scrabbler bullets. Anyway, so you'd basically get a strength/speed/accuracy boost when on low health? I'm trying to think of another game that uses some kind of 'instinct' system.. I want to say Far Cry..

Bloodlines had Frenzy. which was usually a very bad thing.

m G h m u o s
17th Apr 2012, 11:38
Smart Kobold. It has a very advanced AI. It's also a good example of why smart AI is a bad thing.
Yeah? For enemy AI in a 3D space, I think it comes down to giving them a lot of "abilities" too. AI can be smart, but sometimes theres situations where they just won't work. Stuff like rolling grenades into vents, crouching to shoot at you from a better angle, kicking boxes out of the way, close quarter melee combat and that kind stuff isn't what I'd call smart AI but could certainly give the illussion of such a thing. Players will always find certain situations the AI can't handle :P


I was thinking that you'd have to be close enough for the enemy to appear on your radar. You could be right outside a room, or in a ventilation shaft or whatever, and as long as the person is close enough to be on your radar, you could initiate the hack attempt. This means that you couldn't control the person and send them running off to complete your entire mission for you - if you send them away and they get out of range, you lose the connection, and they 'snap out of it' - and probably immediately go into 'hostile' mode and alert everyone around them that something is up (so you would lose any 'ghost' achievements or whatever). Also, it doesn't have to just be enemies you hack - it could be any augs nearby, including citizens walking down the street. This brings up questions of morality, of course - which is something Deus Ex is already known for, so that would just add more/deeper elements to the current theme. Think of the police station mission, for example - if you fail to convince that officer to let you in the station, you could hack one of the perps inside the station and cause him to start attacking police officers - which would make them all go hostile against *him*. Meanwhile, you sneak in unnoticed because all the police are concerned about the guy inside who went berserk.
Being able to hack random civilians sounds totally awesome lol. The main thing would be its implementation into "boss" battles, giving a chance for hacker/stealth builds. Though I still think iniating the hack should be skill based / minigame in itself, but yeah you're right its pointless to debate things at that level. But an alternative to the radar range mechanic could be a simple timer depending on your BE, or maybe a combination of both.


Though I will say it shouldn't be an 'ammo'. It should definitely be an aug/hacking skill that you upgrade to. There would be nothing lamer than a 'hacking gizmo' that you have to find and use. I think DX is interesting because of the choices of augmentations/skills you choose to incorporate into your playstyle. You can choose to beef yourself up as a war machine, or go for the slick stealth ninja type, the clever hacker, etc. It should fall under those guidelines and not be a weapon you can just come across and exploit. You'd need to choose it and dedicate Praxis points or whatever to its use, and choose to (possibly) sacrifice other augs in favor of it.
Well hacking ammo does make it sound like shooting an enemy with a submachine gun with hack ammo will automatically hack him lol but what I had in mind was an ammo type, you might easily get one at the start, for a mini-crossbow or something that you can shoot and retrieve. That or something extra to a multitool, which keeps value to levelling your skills, that has some laser or actual projectile functionality that can be retrieved.


EDIT: Also, if you tie the 'hacking range' to your radar, you now have an incentive to spring for the radar increase aug, which is something I've NEVER gone for during my playthroughs of HR. I never once desired, while playing, the desire to see people on my radar at a longer range - and I don't think that having that aug would have changed my gameplay style in the slightest.
Yeah the radar was broken up poorly. You had a cone vision upgrade but you could already tell which direction they were facing on the default radar. You shouldn't have started with a radar at all imo or the one you did had to be player activated and work like a sonar, with pulses, and enemies, civilians, cameras, bots all show up at indistinguishable blips. Then the upgrades just make the radar more reliable and detailed.

Your idea about having to level up both aug hack and radar though seems off though, unless aug hacking is a branch off of the radar aug. Radar could detect specific enemies, cameras and robots, but aug hack radar could only detect hackable things but with no way to differentiate them other than actual visual contact, but is balanced by the fact you can actually hack them :P

I do like all your prospects of potential decision making opportunities but damn designing environments and scenarios that work for every single aug/skill build would be a pain in the ass XD

Romeo
17th Apr 2012, 15:10
Did you like the ammo system in DXHR, Romeo? How it used up space in your inventory I mean.

But yeah, seeing the level of weapon customization in games like Ghost Recon Future Soldier and Blacklight Retribution. It's why I raised the point about the weight of weapons/items, just to bring another element to help balance that kind of thing.

It was a little funny when you'd add a silencer to your pistol or rifle and it'd shrink in size in your inv lol can't say I wasn't glad for the extra space though

I do remember all that discussion about bringing multiple versions of weapons into DX or whether it should stick to the main archetypes.
I did, yes. Albeit, it did need a couple tweaks (Certain big things were small, certain small things were big). And yeah, both those games and Army of Two are what came to mind with the better weapon customization. I just feel like the added complexity of the inventory aspect would make it even better.

Zerim
17th Apr 2012, 18:34
Off topic, but can you give me any examples of games with good/exceptional AI? :/ I can't think of any one moment that really stands out in all my years of gaming that an AI has made me go "oh wow that was smart". Loads of "oh wtf how did they see/shoot me" though lol. The most memorable moments are more like moments of immersion, Half Life comes to mind.

S.T.A.L.K.E.R., Fear and MGS4 came to my mind.


Smart Kobold. It has a very advanced AI. It's also a good example of why smart AI is a bad thing.
What do you mean exactly?


Oh wow,

look guys

AN AI AN AI!!

Tverdyj
17th Apr 2012, 23:22
Yeah? For enemy AI in a 3D space, I think it comes down to giving them a lot of "abilities" too. AI can be smart, but sometimes theres situations where they just won't work. Stuff like rolling grenades into vents, crouching to shoot at you from a better angle, kicking boxes out of the way, close quarter melee combat and that kind stuff isn't what I'd call smart AI but could certainly give the illussion of such a thing. Players will always find certain situations the AI can't handle :P


Being able to hack random civilians sounds totally awesome lol. The main thing would be its implementation into "boss" battles, giving a chance for hacker/stealth builds. Though I still think iniating the hack should be skill based / minigame in itself, but yeah you're right its pointless to debate things at that level. But an alternative to the radar range mechanic could be a simple timer depending on your BE, or maybe a combination of both.


Well hacking ammo does make it sound like shooting an enemy with a submachine gun with hack ammo will automatically hack him lol but what I had in mind was an ammo type, you might easily get one at the start, for a mini-crossbow or something that you can shoot and retrieve. That or something extra to a multitool, which keeps value to levelling your skills, that has some laser or actual projectile functionality that can be retrieved.


Yeah the radar was broken up poorly. You had a cone vision upgrade but you could already tell which direction they were facing on the default radar. You shouldn't have started with a radar at all imo or the one you did had to be player activated and work like a sonar, with pulses, and enemies, civilians, cameras, bots all show up at indistinguishable blips. Then the upgrades just make the radar more reliable and detailed.

Your idea about having to level up both aug hack and radar though seems off though, unless aug hacking is a branch off of the radar aug. Radar could detect specific enemies, cameras and robots, but aug hack radar could only detect hackable things but with no way to differentiate them other than actual visual contact, but is balanced by the fact you can actually hack them :P

I do like all your prospects of potential decision making opportunities but damn designing environments and scenarios that work for every single aug/skill build would be a pain in the ass XD

but... I thought we all agreed the radar itself was a bad idea that made stealth too easy?
As for hacking ammo, my original suggestion wasn't "shoot someone to convert them to your side". Rather it was "shoot someone to paralyze their augs/make them act erratically/unpredictably". more of a temporary disable/distraction then a 1-shot win type of an idea.

EDIT: also, Anticitizen + others: for hacking people check out EYE: divine Cybermancy. that game has it in spades. and I like its hacking system even more than DXHR, largely due to lack of randomness, which makes it more of a skill-based exercise.

lmprv
17th Apr 2012, 23:27
Yeah - I'd like to echo and elaborate on what's said earlier on this thread: it would be really cool for pure hacking to be a viable and independent gameplay pillar (maybe blend it with social, call it 'subversion' or something), in addition to combat + stealth.

My vision for hacking would be based around mastering and using the environment, in order to directly or indirectly bypass obstacles. For example, hack a level's security system: Disable all the alarms, and lock/unlock any door on command. You could divert the guards to a room, lock them all in it… then hack the sprinkler system (wet floor), then render them all unconscious with a stun-gun. Hack a conveyor belt with massive oil drums, and move it - then use it to block enemies vision, or blow it up to kill them. Hack a level's gas system, and cause a gas leak - make civilians move outside, and have flammable gas left inside to blow up anyone left. Hack a satellite dish, disable a television, and force a guard to go check it out. Hack a cargo crane, intentionally cause an accident, to divert guards, or hack the crane while you are on it to move to another part of the map. Hack a hyron-controlled spec-ops captain, and take over his drones (daisy chain!) or to access his memory storage and get data. Have social hacks (pheneromes, or hyron-hacking?) that makes soldiers think you are friendly, or make you able t predict enemies movements (like Hitman Instinct mode?). Hack a turret to target hostiles, hack an Ogre, then make the Ogre move around the map carrying the turret. Etc, etc, etc, i'm sure you get the picture! And I'm sure there's loads more possibilities. (I love the previous idea of hacking guards, btw…!)

Some hacker-specific equipment would be nice. What if you had a tablet pc as a primary 'weapon' that enabled remote hacking? Similarly, non-combat grenades would be nice - eg noise making grenades for distraction, or even a proto spy drone. Or equipment - a carryable radar transparency item, for instance. It would be nice if they improved and embellished the radar, smart vision and noise detection augs, too, so you could rely on _pure data_ to get through a level.

I'm definitely being a bit naive in my enthusiasm - i imagine it wouldn't be easy to implement and i've no idea about balancing, etc! - but i reckon it would be a cool new "third-way" playstyle and I love the fantasy of being a pure hacker. Anyhow, it's got a lot of possiblity for playful emergent gameplay that we love for Deus Ex :)

m G h m u o s
18th Apr 2012, 01:50
Jesus, Imprv, your gameplay scenario.. whatever you call them.. totally awesome XD I mean they'd just be standard linear missions in any other game, but the prospect of doing that kinda stuff by your own means. It'd be a hell of task setting up and discretely teaching the player how all these elements work and how they could be used though. The only thing I don't like is the predicting enemies path, but that might just be a personal gripe :P

Noise making/decoy grenades sound cool, but only if you can't pick up miscellaneous items like DXHR, otherwise you can just throw a soda can or a plant or something XD But playing off that idea, how about Noise Cancelling grenades? Or would mines make more sense?

Your ideas about relying on "pure data" sound cool. I was wondering if some noise detection aug could be seperate from the radar, and work that like.. weird sound ring thing in MGS4.

The only other idea I've had with hacking is that a dedicated hacker build should be able to access all computers/cameras from one port, so all the computers are connected through network nodes, but if hacking was anything like DXHR it'd be incredibly risky, but the rewards could include patrol routes, building blueprints (vents, secret rooms, etc), soldier augmentation override codes and the typical security camera setup. I really miss the recon intel in DX like the satellite images/photos, which effectively became your 'map' of the area.

lmprv
18th Apr 2012, 07:02
Wow, I LOVE your idea of smart vision visually showing your noise radius - great idea!

In terms of how hacking could work… well I was thinking it would be just like Syndicate's breeching mechanic to be honest LOL (it's a great idea, but not implemented very well in that game). You would either carry a multitool (oldschool!) as an equipable 'weapon', or have an active hacking aug, which would enable you to 'pointhack' environmental things (after hacking a central node in the traditional DXHR way). You aim at an object, hold down 'fire' to hack the object. You know objects can be hacked because the game tells you (when looking in general direction, like Syndicate); also radar (pinpoints objects and increases hacking range) and smart vision (shows cables/wireless between nodes and objects) would help you locate them. When targeting the thing-that-can-be-hacked, you would also get a short written description, too (eg 'electrical cable', 'open door', 'barrel release').

I guess you would have certain hackable things repeated a lot (doors; alarms; gas pipes; sprinklers; electrical cables+switches; bots; augmented humans) as your meat + 2 veg e.g. sprinkler+electricity to take out group of enemies; electrical things 'burst' and knock out close enemies immediately upon hacking (like Gunpoint!); gas+electricity/bullets creates explosion; gas or sprinklers cause civilians to flee; doors can be locked for containment, or boobytrapped upon use (like Gunpoint, again); alarms can be disabled, used for misdirection, or boobytrapped; bots/augs for recon, disabling security, misdirection, killing enemies, or moving objects. Etc etc etc etc

So i guess a hacker gameplay loop would be something like explore -> find access node (helped by radar, smart vision + remote hacking augs (eg hacking through a proxy)) -> (remote) hack node, like DXHR -> find obstacle -> cover -> remotehack/pointhack connected environment objects -> combine functionalties of environmental objects and/or player abilities -> bypass obstacle.

Anyhow… it's too easy to sit on the fence and dream - I'm sure EM have some great (and actually workable) ideas LOL :D

m G h m u o s
18th Apr 2012, 13:55
lol your enthusiasm is a great read though.

Your ideas about hacking environments could bring greater value to environmental hazards (and environmental protection augs) and could play into their whole own mechanics. SMART vision could be upgraded in different ways, to detect/analyse enemies, to detect/hack electronics or to interface with blueprints to detect hazards (like showing gas pipes etc).

If it became a major theme, the big environmental hazard to look out for could be airborne nanites that could be used to detect, hack and/or damage the player.

Tverdyj
18th Apr 2012, 16:48
Wow, I LOVE your idea of smart vision visually showing your noise radius - great idea!

In terms of how hacking could work… well I was thinking it would be just like Syndicate's breeching mechanic to be honest LOL (it's a great idea, but not implemented very well in that game). You would either carry a multitool (oldschool!) as an equipable 'weapon', or have an active hacking aug, which would enable you to 'pointhack' environmental things (after hacking a central node in the traditional DXHR way). You aim at an object, hold down 'fire' to hack the object. You know objects can be hacked because the game tells you (when looking in general direction, like Syndicate); also radar (pinpoints objects and increases hacking range) and smart vision (shows cables/wireless between nodes and objects) would help you locate them. When targeting the thing-that-can-be-hacked, you would also get a short written description, too (eg 'electrical cable', 'open door', 'barrel release').

I guess you would have certain hackable things repeated a lot (doors; alarms; gas pipes; sprinklers; electrical cables+switches; bots; augmented humans) as your meat + 2 veg e.g. sprinkler+electricity to take out group of enemies; electrical things 'burst' and knock out close enemies immediately upon hacking (like Gunpoint!); gas+electricity/bullets creates explosion; gas or sprinklers cause civilians to flee; doors can be locked for containment, or boobytrapped upon use (like Gunpoint, again); alarms can be disabled, used for misdirection, or boobytrapped; bots/augs for recon, disabling security, misdirection, killing enemies, or moving objects. Etc etc etc etc

So i guess a hacker gameplay loop would be something like explore -> find access node (helped by radar, smart vision + remote hacking augs (eg hacking through a proxy)) -> (remote) hack node, like DXHR -> find obstacle -> cover -> remotehack/pointhack connected environment objects -> combine functionalties of environmental objects and/or player abilities -> bypass obstacle.

Anyhow… it's too easy to sit on the fence and dream - I'm sure EM have some great (and actually workable) ideas LOL :D

I haven't played Syndicate, but EYE handles hacking brilliantly, even if it fails terribly (most of the time) at combining it with everything else in the game.
as a way to build on the tablet idea--what if everything you hacked provided you with a "backdoor address" for remote access, but you had to store these addresses on your PDA/tablet, which would only have a certain number of "slots". so that this way the player would have to make a decision about which hacked objects he'd want to retain instantaneous access to, and which would need to be re-hacked.

this also opens up a variety of possible upgrades for the PDA/tablet--increasing the number of "slots", increasing range, etc. and it would give you something to spend money on, instead of exp/praxis, so it would make the resource management economy more diverse.

m G h m u o s
18th Apr 2012, 18:12
as a way to build on the tablet idea--what if everything you hacked provided you with a "backdoor address" for remote access, but you had to store these addresses on your PDA/tablet, which would only have a certain number of "slots". so that this way the player would have to make a decision about which hacked objects he'd want to retain instantaneous access to, and which would need to be re-hacked.

this also opens up a variety of possible upgrades for the PDA/tablet--increasing the number of "slots", increasing range, etc. and it would give you something to spend money on, instead of exp/praxis, so it would make the resource management economy more diverse
I dunno, I mean your infolink lets you store so much info/data, it doesn't make much sense for a pda/tablet to be so limited. I think your "backdoor address" idea should just be a reward for really difficult/extensive hacks. I mean the player already makes choices of compromise when they choose to level up in hacking and bring along a tablet/pda in their inventory.

I'm all up for doing something similar though, where you basically bring with multitool back but through in some mini-game/complexity in there.

I wonder if it'd be cool to have network ports all over a building (appropriately, like at desks etc) so could can use the telephone line to hack into a computer from the other side of a building. Feels a bit more grounded than the remote hacking idea, regardless of how much I love it lol

Romeo
19th Apr 2012, 00:10
I haven't played Syndicate, but EYE handles hacking brilliantly, even if it fails terribly (most of the time) at combining it with everything else in the game.
as a way to build on the tablet idea--what if everything you hacked provided you with a "backdoor address" for remote access, but you had to store these addresses on your PDA/tablet, which would only have a certain number of "slots". so that this way the player would have to make a decision about which hacked objects he'd want to retain instantaneous access to, and which would need to be re-hacked.

this also opens up a variety of possible upgrades for the PDA/tablet--increasing the number of "slots", increasing range, etc. and it would give you something to spend money on, instead of exp/praxis, so it would make the resource management economy more diverse.
Yes on all fronts. Take this, remove "purchased" Praxis Kits and remove XP for killing/taking down/hacking/sneaking through an area (As well as give one standard bonus for finding a secret area instead of the four, and keep mission XP as is) and the player would actually have to focus on where they wanted to specialize. Do they want to be a one-man army? Spend cash on weapons/weapon mods, and focus XP on combat-orientated skills. Want to be a sneaky sneakerpants? Spend cash on the tablet modifications, and focus XP on stealth-orientated skills.

Tverdyj
19th Apr 2012, 00:14
Yes on all fronts. Take this, remove "purchased" Praxis Kits and remove XP for killing/taking down/hacking/sneaking through an area (As well as give one standard bonus for finding a secret area instead of the four, and keep mission XP as is) and the player would actually have to focus on where they wanted to specialize. Do they want to be a one-man army? Spend cash on weapons/weapon mods, and focus XP on combat-orientated skills. Want to be a sneaky sneakerpants? Spend cash on the tablet modifications, and focus XP on stealth-orientated skills.

I'd actually prefer for hacking and stealth to be two separate, equally viable play-styles. After all, hacker doesn't have to be quiet, not if he can turn the building against the residents, using turrets and hacking enemies to kill for him.

while stealth would focus entirely on silent infiltrations, going in and getting out unseen from start to finish.

m G h m u o s
19th Apr 2012, 00:58
I like the sound of a offensive upgrade branch to hacking augs lol :)

Continuing off the environmental hazard stuff, I dunno how it could work as an aug, but an idea of puzzles involving redirecting pipes to have either toxic, sleeping or nanite gas through ventilation came up in my brain.

Anywho, so would you guys prefer a universe credit system that would be used for upgrading skills, augmentations and buying items?

Romeo
19th Apr 2012, 04:36
I like the sound of a offensive upgrade branch to hacking augs lol :)

Continuing off the environmental hazard stuff, I dunno how it could work as an aug, but an idea of puzzles involving redirecting pipes to have either toxic, sleeping or nanite gas through ventilation came up in my brain.

Anywho, so would you guys prefer a universe credit system that would be used for upgrading skills, augmentations and buying items?
Personally, no. I want even more complexity and management options. I'd like to see more division between XP and Credits, with options in each becoming mutually exclusive.

Tverdyj
19th Apr 2012, 04:56
I like the IDEA of an XP system. but the concept that additional XP "unlocks" praxis kits--which are tangible things I can find lying around in the world--was a bit silly.

I'm not saying we need to go back to the skill system (though it would be nice), but EM needs to come up with a more plausible justification for the existance of exp

m G h m u o s
19th Apr 2012, 05:19
Personally, no. I want even more complexity and management options. I'd like to see more division between XP and Credits, with options in each becoming mutually exclusive.
So.. do you mean you'd be ok with an option like being able to spend credits on something that requires XP, but at a much greater/inflated rate.. or visa versa, which ever is more valuable? Basically like a free-to-play business model lol.

I'm just really iffy on the whole XP system. Rewards should just be physical useful items and engaging character interactions/responses, walking in a room for the explorer bonus so you can level up your rifle profficiency seems off. XP just seems like a seperate monetary system, so I figured why not immerse it with the DX lore and have XP/skills linked to neural augs and downloading skills for a price or something.

To be honest I think its just a gripe I've got with the words "experience points" XD Maybe skill vs stats too, what would levelling.

Theres loads of potential management complexity, off the top of my head, you could find/buy incomplete augs or their blueprints that you can either sell, keep to read enemy augs or use for yourself, or tie in BE consumption with augmentation hacking where you set up your own network and have to balance complexity and security/protection vs optimisation and low BE usage.

Maybe even different currencies and exchange rates in conjunction with credits?

Tverdyj
19th Apr 2012, 12:22
see, the way the concept of HR augs was originally presented--you start out with few augs, and you have to buy them to get the augs grafted into yourself, changing your appearance was a great idea. it made sense.

the concept of "you need to hit this number to magically receive a token that can activate more gadgets already inside of you".... not so much. You need SHODAN to make that model work.

you can tie EXP with progression--your body's "adapting" to new tech.once you accomplish enough progress, you can be told that "enough time has passed, your body's ready for more". At which point you can either buy some of the more rare augs that aren't entirely legal, or you can go to the equivalent of a LIMB clinic, where your employer will bankroll your augs--this way you don't spend money, you keep the EXP system, but it's helluva lot more plausible.

m G h m u o s
19th Apr 2012, 16:57
you can tie EXP with progression--your body's "adapting" to new tech.once you accomplish enough progress, you can be told that "enough time has passed, your body's ready for more". At which point you can either buy some of the more rare augs that aren't entirely legal, or you can go to the equivalent of a LIMB clinic, where your employer will bankroll your augs--this way you don't spend money, you keep the EXP system, but it's helluva lot more plausible.
Yeah to be honest if there a good explaination or justification, then an XP will probably be fine for me lol.

So do you guys think weapon skill level should effect accuracy or damage? Or is reload speed, draw time, melee ability(?), accuracy while moving and mobility enough?

I had an idea that training for weapons could be branched too, kinda like augs, so for melee training you can upgrade speed/damage, quieter takedowns or the ability to render enemies unconscious even with lethal weapons, all disguised under the name for melee fighting combat techniques or something? Melee for guns or empty handed?

I was also wondering if pick-pocking would be a cool skill addition.

Tverdyj
19th Apr 2012, 18:26
Accuracy based on skill in an FPS=much rage. I'm not against it, but I don't see EM talking such a huge step back from the mass market.
Although accuracy could play a role--in EYE (sorry to keep bringing this up, but it's the closes thing we have to a new DX after HR), there's an accuracy stat that's overlaid on top of meaty, reflex-based gunplay. Accuracy provides long rage bonus, and minimizes the spread for machinegun bullets.

if we're going to have melee, I want it done right (i.e. no "press X to win"). in which case, I'd rather have trainers that increase my proficiency for money. by actually training me.

pick-pocket.... hmmm, I dunno. I know its an RPG staple, but I just don't see it blending in cyberpunk.

m G h m u o s
19th Apr 2012, 19:40
Accuracy based on skill in an FPS=much rage. I'm not against it, but I don't see EM talking such a huge step back from the mass market.
Although accuracy could play a role--in EYE (sorry to keep bringing this up, but it's the closes thing we have to a new DX after HR), there's an accuracy stat that's overlaid on top of meaty, reflex-based gunplay. Accuracy provides long rage bonus, and minimizes the spread for machinegun bullets.
Yeah, stat accuracy is really outdated now in FPS with aiming down sights being a staple accurizer. I was wondering about recoil and stuff because having the strength aug optionallly reduce recoil just makes sense. Is giving the player choices between similar augs and skills a good or bad thing?


if we're going to have melee, I want it done right (i.e. no "press X to win"). in which case, I'd rather have trainers that increase my proficiency for money. by actually training me.

That was another idea I had, along with the neural aug instant skill download explaination, if improving skills could be a choice between spending xp or spending credits on trainers, though the trainers ultimately would just give an xp boost when you're in the target range or whatever, depending on how stats work if they were to return.


pick-pocket.... hmmm, I dunno. I know its an RPG staple, but I just don't see it blending in cyberpunk.
Well you'd just be able to take the items you usually pick up from a dead/unconcsious body, I don't see how cyberpunk themes really effect that. Could have augs related to it to make it more interesting nonetheless, like x-ray vision scanning their pockets and identifying items on them or some alternative to strength upgrades which give you 'stealthy hands' or something lol.

Romeo
19th Apr 2012, 23:09
I hear people questioning if skills dictating accuracy is logical... Have you people ever been to the range? It's not as simple as "point and pull". Handling recoil, holding the weapon right, accounting for trigger pull, steadiness... There's a ton of factors between "sights" and "target hit".

I'm all for skills affecting weapon profiency, even if it would destroy the egos of those who think they're all that. =P

m G h m u o s
19th Apr 2012, 23:24
I hear people questioning if skills dictating accuracy is logical... Have you people ever been to the range? It's not as simple as "point and pull". Handling recoil, holding the weapon right, accounting for trigger pull, steadiness... There's a ton of factors between "sights" and "target hit".

I'm all for skills affecting weapon profiency, even if it would destroy the egos of those who think they're all that. =P
Makes sense, but depending on the character you play sometimes it could just seems funny that they have zero firearms experience :P I think the example we have in our heads is aiming down the sights of a gun, with a shot perfectly lined up, how much should stats effect that situation?

Or maybe weapons you're not trained in all have 'sway' like the crossbow/tranq gun in DXHR?

Romeo
19th Apr 2012, 23:52
Makes sense, but depending on the character you play sometimes it could just seems funny that they have zero firearms experience :P I think the example we have in our heads is aiming down the sights of a gun, with a shot perfectly lined up, how much should stats effect that situation?

Or maybe weapons you're not trained in all have 'sway' like the crossbow/tranq gun in DXHR?
I've been to the range hundreds of times. I still have sway when standing and firing a weapon, from pistols all the way up to centre-fire rifles. There's also more subtle stuff, like when you pull the trigger, you tend to pull the muzzle up slightly on shorter weapons. Now, if I had MEGA-ARMZ that could effectively act as a hard mount, my accuracy would undoubtedly tighten up considerably.

There's also the "human factor". If I'm getting shot at, I'm probably not going to calmly line up my shots and take my time for the perfect snipe. Unless I become experienced enough to keep a level head in such a situation, in which case, I might learn to pull the weapon up "just right" quicker, steady my nerves to reduce sway, etc...

m G h m u o s
20th Apr 2012, 00:14
I've been to the range hundreds of times. I still have sway when standing and firing a weapon, from pistols all the way up to centre-fire rifles. There's also more subtle stuff, like when you pull the trigger, you tend to pull the muzzle up slightly on shorter weapons. Now, if I had MEGA-ARMZ that could effectively act as a hard mount, my accuracy would undoubtedly tighten up considerably.

Well I don't think we're aiming for a sim XD If you max out your training in a weapon then I think you should be able to feel/tell the difference. But yeah how do you feel about training a weapon reducing recoil for example but having an upgrade for strength aug giving the same effect? That kinda optionality good or just redundant?


There's also the "human factor". If I'm getting shot at, I'm probably not going to calmly line up my shots and take my time for the perfect snipe. Unless I become experienced enough to keep a level head in such a situation, in which case, I might learn to pull the weapon up "just right" quicker, steady my nerves to reduce sway, etc...
Well if you're talking about suppression mechanics then they can be tricky to pin down. Personally I just think it just creates a seperation between the player and the character. BF3 has an interesting one but vets always complain about the random deviation because they themselves are able to keep a cool head and aim right down the sights, but the bullets end up miles away.

I mean if you're getting pressured in a situation and are under fire, I don't think the game needs to simulate a person freaking out XD Then again it'd still be cool to work that level of detail into the XP training.

m G h m u o s
20th Apr 2012, 02:01
Another random idea, having the SMART vision/Spy Drone scale up very gradually so in its early stages it could compared to those cameras used to see under doors like in Splinter Cell or Rainbow Six? Or maybe you should just be able to peek through keyholes or ajar/slowly open doors (ala MGS3/Amnesia)?

Romeo
20th Apr 2012, 02:09
Not what I mean, but for example, have their shaking hands slow down reload times. Have their jitters reduce their ability to steady their hands, causing idle sway. Without them thinking of accounting for recoil, have the handling of the weapon just plummet under full-auto. So a weapon skill (XP) would reduce those punitive effects, as well as perhaps giving a very slight bonus to idle sway. Weapon mods (Credits) could be used to increase the various attributes of a weapon, such as idle sway, damage, handling, etc...

Ashpolt
20th Apr 2012, 03:43
All these questions about how realistic it is for a UNATCO agent / security guard / etc to be anything other than proficient with firearms are understandable, but....so what?

It's a game. Gameplay should always, in every conceivable circumstance, come first. In an RPG - which, at core, Deus Ex is meant to be - character progression is a key factor, and weapon proficiency is a big part of that. Who gives a flying toss if it's not realistic? It's a game. It doesn't need to be realistic. You're entering a virtual world where people can turn invisible or run at super speeds. I'm pretty sure the writers can justify someone not being particularly great with a gun.

And if we're hell bent on realism, how realistic is it that Adam can fire a prototype laser weapon, a rocket launcher or a grenade launcher the first time he picks them up? It's highly unlikely his training would have accounted for that. Heck, it's unlikely he'd have even got his hands on heavy machine guns. It makes sense for him to know how to use pistols, SMGs and (just about) assault rifles, but the rest are way out of the remit of an ex-cop, current security guard. So whichever way you go with it - starting trained or starting untrained - only half or so of the weapons make sense.

Plus, of course, the guy's just got two new freaking robot arms as we start the (main) game. That would tend to throw off a guy's aim.

tl;dr: Arguing on the basis of realism is stupid in many ways.

Romeo
20th Apr 2012, 04:02
Aye, agreed one every bullet point. (Pun completely intended)

m G h m u o s
20th Apr 2012, 04:41
All these questions? XD I was the only one who out right said it'd be weird. It was more of question of story immersion than realism, but they're one in the same now that I think about it. But regardless that was a rant I'm sure we all have on stand-by :P

Adapting initial skill choices that you made in DX1 could be worked into some actual gameplay/tutorial. Either like Fallout 3 (but with just your occupation instead of your entire life lol) or DX1 with the training level but with your actual first skill choices worked into it (like at that final training stage with the full-on scenario) players can start thinking about focusing skills early on.

Hammich
20th Apr 2012, 18:54
Moving away from smart vision-type targeting and combat systems,
Movement/Combat
I'd like to see a full body awareness system like Mirrors Edge (see that trench coat flying in the breeze!) which makes your upgrades for strength, speed.etc far more apparent, seeing physical changes on your own body giving you new avenues of navigation/exploration (parkour, ledge-grabbing and climbing please) as well as a melee combat system based on movement & momentum.

Surprise attacks of course being KO's generally (exceptions for reflex-boosted enemies when the attack is non-stealth) but basically, skill based.. you can build your strength, speed.. perhaps reflex boosting (partially slow time aug?) but have similar abilities in various NPC's. Have combat where you have to out-think and out-manoeuvre your opponents blows and shots on the fly, whack their gun out of the way/out of their hands before they can get a shot off.etc

But with stealth mechanics similar to the Chronicles of Riddick. Possibly have dark areas (sewers/tunnels/drains without lights please) where HDR does not adjust and vision enhancement augs come into their own as an advantage over using a flashlight. Make it optional but bring back lean please! And waterways, swimming.. one of my favourite parts of DX 1 and that era of games... discovering things through underwater passageways! Which reminds me! secret areas/rooms in the hubs please! The feeling of discovery has kept Deus Ex exciting for all these years, there are things still being found only just now, give us things to find!
--- give us more sandbox-type hubs to use all this in!!

Augs
On the topic of augs and alternatives to mech augs - perhaps bio-augs? gene therapy that produces milder passive augments that use no energy, the augs become stronger through particular uses but have a cap before they can overtake the more energy-intensive but more powerful mech augments, or alternatively, just give them different advantages all together.

The energy system for mech augs -
I'd change is the battery system (that type of partial recharging, I do like for health though). I think a better working system would be a single pool of energy. It recharges automatically to 100%. You can fortify your energy pool with those cyberboost bars or whatever. However when expending energy, the further away you get from 100%, the slower your recharge rate will be. So if you bring yourself down to 10% you'll have to rest for a couple of minutes to get up to 50%, but just a minute more to get to 100%. Consuming a cyberboost bar during this time increases your recovery rate 300% but energy fortifying is diminished proportionate to how low your energy was. If nanoaugs are used, a similar system could be implemented but obviously, social consequences would differ. Facing off against mech opponents would involve wearing their energy down and managing yours effectively. This could be an area where bio-augs have an edge in stand-off scenarios. More stamina if the augs have been well-trained.

Health
Bring back locational damage please! and as mentioned above, perhaps have partial regeneration of health in blocks for each body part. But have locational damage effect gameplay. Getting hit in the arm effects reloating speed and accuracy, having an arms health depleted means you can only use sidearms. A headshot has a high chance of killing and if it doesn't, you get blurred vision and blood spots in your eyes. Getting hit in the leg gives your character a limp, having a leg taken out will leave you hopping or crawling. But have targeted healing augs too, just make it an active (not passive) augmentation. This could also give new angles for non-lethal play, injuring but not killing an opponent.

m G h m u o s
21st Apr 2012, 05:14
I'd like to see a full body awareness system like Mirrors Edge (see that trench coat flying in the breeze!) which makes your upgrades for strength, speed.etc far more apparent, seeing physical changes on your own body giving you new avenues of navigation/exploration (parkour, ledge-grabbing and climbing please) as well as a melee combat system based on movement & momentum.
Yeah being able to pulls yourself up ledges or over fences would be nice. I thought it might take away from the improvised platforming with boxes and stuff, but really that plays into level design. I can only imagine it being a little awkward when back up off ledges or working out what you can/cannot grab :/


Surprise attacks of course being KO's generally (exceptions for reflex-boosted enemies when the attack is non-stealth) but basically, skill based.. you can build your strength, speed.. perhaps reflex boosting (partially slow time aug?) but have similar abilities in various NPC's. Have combat where you have to out-think and out-manoeuvre your opponents blows and shots on the fly, whack their gun out of the way/out of their hands before they can get a shot off.etc
I sure as hell would prefer to keep quick time events out of DX, but some dynamic melee system sounds nice but I've yet to see it done too well. Though I heard Chronicles of Riddick had an awesome first person melee system?

And who didn't love finding that submerged subway in China in DX1 lol. I was like "ohh.. ohhhh.. wh- wtf omg look- how far wtf- WTF awesome :D" I'd love for the next DX level design to be much much more open, with excessible exteriors and grounds (that is pretty specific for buildings but just for eg )of every location you move through.

As for your energy system ideas, I think I'd just like the BE system to return with some collectable/purchaseable recharge unit. You could still make it more complex like some regenerating "syringe" that you still have to take, but maybe balanced by using up BE, like an emergency regen aug effectively. I feel like energy bars/food products should tie into some stamina/health recovery system, instead of directly to your aug use. How many calories are in those damn things lol.

And as for health, I think its a given that we think the localised damage system should make a come back :P A natural step up would only logically be its application to enemies as well. I always had that in my head, but your 'incapacitation' idea struck me as new and awesome. So if enemies can be unconscious, asleep and stunned, what gameplay could be mix things up with incapacitation..

CoDs last stand for enemy AI? XD I'm trying to think how they'd still work in combat, like yelling for help, but it'd be awesome if you disable their arms and legs, if they don't bleed out or something (using health kits on enemies to preserve 'pacifist' runs/mission requirements..?) then it'd be cool if you can just talk to them like any other NPC. Whether for interrogation opportunities or whatever, I just thought it'd be a cool little interaction. Using something like a CASIE aug on some soldier to give even such a minor insignificant character a little story.

m G h m u o s
21st Apr 2012, 08:01
I want binoculars to come back too. Or some binocular vision aug that could be implemented to lock-picking. Could be a choice between binoculars and upgrading weapons with scopes/targetting systems, with inventory space as the bargaining chips, binoculars could be used as range finders and you'd have to swap to your weapons and calculate the drop based on the distance you lased the target with binoculars. Pretty clunky idea though with the level of tech you can cram into one eye though XD

I also miss the ballistic armor (and camo suit) you could use in emergency to stack up your stats in tough situations. Never made sense how you could fit multiple suits/body armor into your pockets though lol but I think the dermal armor aug could be adapted with some function (or maybe even an item, that overrides BE safety protocols/programming) that allows you to burn bioelectricity/energy at a much much higher rate but for a much higher level of protection.

Romeo
21st Apr 2012, 17:14
Yeah being able to pulls yourself up ledges or over fences would be nice. I thought it might take away from the improvised platforming with boxes and stuff, but really that plays into level design. I can only imagine it being a little awkward when back up off ledges or working out what you can/cannot grab :/


I sure as hell would prefer to keep quick time events out of DX, but some dynamic melee system sounds nice but I've yet to see it done too well. Though I heard Chronicles of Riddick had an awesome first person melee system?

And who didn't love finding that submerged subway in China in DX1 lol. I was like "ohh.. ohhhh.. wh- wtf omg look- how far wtf- WTF awesome :D" I'd love for the next DX level design to be much much more open, with excessible exteriors and grounds (that is pretty specific for buildings but just for eg )of every location you move through.
Yeah, I'm not sure what it is with level design, but it seems to be going down in sequels:

Deus Ex: The first had interesting and odd locales, as well as an overall cool, varied city scape. The second (For all the hate) didn't have the same oddities, but the locales at least felt unique and different. The third is city... Everywhere.

Elder Scrolls: (I know it's not the first, but the first with some punch graphically) Morrowind was a world with purples and glowing greens highlighted by Silt Striders and cities like Vivic. Oblivion was basically forest everywhere, but with some interesting architecture and Oblivion dotted about. The third is forest... Everywhere.

Halo: Hell, even this series is like that. The first had levels in spaceships, forests, beaches, flood-infested buildings, alien architecture and alien spaceships. The second had cities, forests and alien architecture, but was much more limited in variety. The third is forest... Almost everywhere. lol

Zerim
21st Apr 2012, 18:45
It makes sense for him to know how to use pistols, SMGs and (just about) assault rifles, but the rest are way out of the remit of an ex-cop--

Ex-SWAT, and you'd be surprised.

m G h m u o s
21st Apr 2012, 19:50
Yeah, I'm not sure what it is with level design, but it seems to be going down in sequels:
I have a feeling it must be something to do with budget/technology, when it improves they'd want to bring more details to the game, so maybe they forget to take a step back (a really far step lol) and see if the areas have any extremely striking differences. Sorta ties in the fact singleplayer games tend to get shorter in the current times, though I can't account for all the RPG (sequels) out there.

On a.. pretty off-topic note, what do you guys think of a sequel following DX1, but not DXIW? Like, it'd be a sequel based one of the three possible decisions you can make at the end of DX1. I'm not 100% clear on which one DXIW was btw or if that established a canon or whatever.

Hammich
22nd Apr 2012, 01:40
Yeah being able to pulls yourself up ledges or over fences would be nice. I thought it might take away from the improvised platforming with boxes and stuff, but really that plays into level design. I can only imagine it being a little awkward when back up off ledges or working out what you can/cannot grab :/

Remember Invisible War? one of the GOOD things it did, if you could stand on it, you could pull yourself up on it. This included boxes


I sure as hell would prefer to keep quick time events out of DX, but some dynamic melee system sounds nice but I've yet to see it done too well. Though I heard Chronicles of Riddick had an awesome first person melee system?

I'd like to keep QTE out of DX too but dynamic melee works. Riddick did an awesome job of it, both unarmed and with weapons, plus stealth kills/submissions and drop-kills. I liked the ideas Mirrors Edge played around with bringing momentum, height, locational hits and sliding to the party. I thought this was something that could work in with DX, your enhancements becoming more noticable from where you started with this kind of gameplay.

And who didn't love finding that submerged subway in China in DX1 lol. I was like "ohh.. ohhhh.. wh- wtf omg look- how far wtf- WTF awesome :D" I'd love for the next DX level design to be much much more open, with excessible exteriors and grounds (that is pretty specific for buildings but just for eg )of every location you move through.

As for your energy system ideas, I think I'd just like the BE system to return with some collectable/purchaseable recharge unit. You could still make it more complex like some regenerating "syringe" that you still have to take, but maybe balanced by using up BE, like an emergency regen aug effectively. I feel like energy bars/food products should tie into some stamina/health recovery system, instead of directly to your aug use. How many calories are in those damn things lol
.
not sure why but that system always reminded me of DIABLO and mana potions. I get its merits though and it requires a far more planned approach (or far more quick saving)

And as for health, I think its a given that we think the localised damage system should make a come back :P A natural step up would only logically be its application to enemies as well. I always had that in my head, but your 'incapacitation' idea struck me as new and awesome. So if enemies can be unconscious, asleep and stunned, what gameplay could be mix things up with incapacitation..
think. Mafia-style interrogation. The next game could get dark. Just make sure there's non-violent alternatives for the REAL pacifists out there :P

CoDs last stand for enemy AI? XD
a shot in the knee, the rookie NSF kid doesn't want to fight anymore. Fanatics will still try to take you down but be likely to miss and waste all their ammo. Downed soldiers will still be dangerous as hell.
BUT, make disarming an option.

then it'd be cool if you can just talk to them like any other NPC. Whether for interrogation opportunities or whatever, I just thought it'd be a cool little interaction. Using something like a CASIE aug on some soldier to give even such a minor insignificant character a little story.
that would be cool

RE: level design - get rid of invisible walls and graphics barriers please!! Let us get outside of the levels if we want. If you don't want us floating in space then give us a randomly- generated field with mooing cows eating grass or something

m G h m u o s
22nd Apr 2012, 02:22
Remember Invisible War? one of the GOOD things it did, if you could stand on it, you could pull yourself up on it. This included boxes
I haven't played IW. As much as all the DX memes promote it, the hate IW keeps people away XD Are there any other features from IW that get overshadowed that you think could make a return?


I'd like to keep QTE out of DX too but dynamic melee works. Riddick did an awesome job of it, both unarmed and with weapons, plus stealth kills/submissions and drop-kills. I liked the ideas Mirrors Edge played around with bringing momentum, height, locational hits and sliding to the party. I thought this was something that could work in with DX, your enhancements becoming more noticable from where you started with this kind of gameplay.
I really need to play that Riddick game just to get a feel for it. Working in speed augs and verticality of level design along with your ideas and it could become a really elaborate and awesome melee system.


not sure why but that system always reminded me of DIABLO and mana potions. I get its merits though and it requires a far more planned approach (or far more quick saving)

Well maybe can choose between 'energy plans' like (just like a phone contract lol) and have an automatical regenerating battery system balanced against a system you have to find fuel for yourself.


think. Mafia-style interrogation. The next game could get dark. Just make sure there's non-violent alternatives for the REAL pacifists out there :P

Oh, yeah of course keep the typical pacifist options in. It could just be a cool addition should you make a little mistake on a pacifist run, frantically trying to heal an enemy. It'd be cool to get some NPC interactions based off such optional decisions you make on missions.


RE: level design - get rid of invisible walls and graphics barriers please!! Let us get outside of the levels if we want. If you don't want us floating in space then give us a randomly- generated field with mooing cows eating grass or something
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGqORx4XAiU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHOyvjqEaLs

I'm hesitant to call these glitches, even though I know they are, because I feel like these areas could have totally worked with a little polish and maybe slightly easier access. I especially would have loved getting on the roof of the Milwaukee Junction factory to look down/around to see the police surrounding the area.

Hammich
22nd Apr 2012, 02:53
haha, I made it on the roof of the sarif plant first time I played :P but was disappointed I couldn't get over the fence to where the cops were (or shoot the cops and get nailed by a cop sniper)
edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn6dLqvpL2A
okay, there are some cool exploits in HR. Maybe in the next game have seamless building interiors/exteriors so you don't get glitches like that :P
If the next DX is going to come out on the next gen consoles, they may as well use some extra system resources and have continuous levels (within hubs - I am a reasonable man)

m G h m u o s
22nd Apr 2012, 05:06
Default
haha, I made it on the roof of the sarif plant first time I played :P but was disappointed I couldn't get over the fence to where the cops were (or shoot the cops and get nailed by a cop sniper)
I didn't try too much jump exploring after getting discouraged by invisible walls, but that did make finding some secrets a little.. surprisier? XD Like that body in the Detroit streets behind the wall.

I like the idea of keep the player in the map by having him realistically shot in the right scenario instead of obvious physical obstacles, but I was wondering if that could be applied to more levels, so every level looks like it could be open as a hub but if you leave a certain perimetre they think you're going awol or something and pull your killswitch

Tverdyj
22nd Apr 2012, 05:29
lots of cool suggestions here.

Finding the Canal road entrance was made all the cooler by the fact that on certain depth, in the certain part of the canals, you can actually LOOK into the Canal road collapse, with no way of getting there from that spot. it makes it so deliciously frustrating.

Re: IW. it combined all 3 endings. JC merged with Helios, and removed him form Area 51. in so doing, he effectively crashed the network, triggering the Second Dark Age. in the meantime, the Illuminati secretly came to power.

Good things about IW:
-the idea of black-market augs.
-weapon mods (glass shatterer!)
-the faction system (this needed work, but had potential)
EDIT: also, making hacking an aug. and sticking it IN THE SAME SPOT as the cloak aug. grrrr.......

the bad things about IW:
-take everything that made DX great, and imagine the exact opposite.

Romeo
22nd Apr 2012, 09:57
Uhh, you missed the single best thing about Invisible War...

The Mag Rail.

m G h m u o s
22nd Apr 2012, 21:45
Re: IW. it combined all 3 endings. JC merged with Helios, and removed him form Area 51. in so doing, he effectively crashed the network, triggering the Second Dark Age. in the meantime, the Illuminati secretly came to power.
Ohh okay. I always had an idea of a trilogy of sequels, each other following a different ending of DX1. With HL2 esque distopian/totalitarian states or a pseudo-post-apocalyptic setting for the new dark age.



-the faction system (this needed work, but had potential)
What was this? Did doing certain missions/making certain chooses allign you with a group for specific side missions or something?


The Mag Rail.
FILL ME IN GURL FREN~

Hammich
23rd Apr 2012, 04:05
Finding the Canal road entrance was made all the cooler by the fact that on certain depth, in the certain part of the canals, you can actually LOOK into the Canal road collapse, with no way of getting there from that spot. it makes it so deliciously frustrating.
^all of my 'this!'



Good things about IW:
-the idea of black-market augs.
-weapon mods (glass shatterer!)
-the faction system (this needed work, but had potential)
EDIT: also, making hacking an aug. and sticking it IN THE SAME SPOT as the cloak aug. grrrr.......

the bad things about IW:
-take everything that made DX great, and imagine the exact opposite.
agreed with those

More good things about IW:
-Physics- if it wasn't bolted down, you could move it around, break it.etc (Human revolution lacked sufficient breakage.. I wanted to be able to wreck some of those stores up in Hengsha ='[)

-Soundtrack - much as I loved DX1's soundtrack, I loved the more ambient approach IW took. The music in Heron's Loft was something special.

-Those cool backlit fans in the air vents with that *whhp whhp* sound they made

-the slow-leak from poison gas canisters where you shot them to just take out one guy rather than flooding the whole building with gas if you didn't want to.

-setting bodies on fire

-Bot/Turret domination

-throwing a grenade into Sophia Sak's office and closing the door

Tverdyj
23rd Apr 2012, 04:41
RE: factions: they tried to make you choose b/w working for WTO and the Order, and one side would get angry if you did the other side's side missions (see also: Coffee Wars). However, like most things in IW, it was implemented poorly, and you got tons of choice, but little consequences, since all sides would continue urging you to take their side in the main plot, regardless of how many of their number you've killed/missions failed

RE: mag rail--it was a railgun that could shoot through walls. it ate up tons of ammo, and unless you wanted to side with WTO you couldn't get it till late in the game anyhow.

Romeo
23rd Apr 2012, 18:22
FILL ME IN GURL FREN~
Eh, pretty cool gun. Shoots through walls and doesn't afraid of anything.

In all seriousness, the Mag Rail was wicked. It was tremendous power coupled with pinpoint accuracy, that could shoot through light cover. Its secondary function fired an incredibly powerful EMP that would utterly devastate robots, as well as take out cameras and whatnot in a single round. The main drawbacks were that the weapon was both difficult to find, and was only found late game. And the fact it chewed through ammo gratuitously; A few rounds with it and you'd barely have enough ammo left to fire the pistol.

Like most ridiculous, over-the-top and functionally useless weapons, this made it my favourite in the Deus Ex universe.

RE: factions: they tried to make you choose b/w working for WTO and the Order, and one side would get angry if you did the other side's side missions (see also: Coffee Wars). However, like most things in IW, it was implemented poorly, and you got tons of choice, but little consequences, since all sides would continue urging you to take their side in the main plot, regardless of how many of their number you've killed/missions failed

RE: mag rail--it was a railgun that could shoot through walls. it ate up tons of ammo, and unless you wanted to side with WTO you couldn't get it till late in the game anyhow.
I agree all sides really needed to be tweaked more. The worst offender was the Templar: I've spent literally the whole game murdering your agents, have never once done you a favour and I represent the perfect anti-thesis to your points. Aaaand you'll still ask for my help at the end? Are you nuts?

JCpies
23rd Apr 2012, 19:08
I like the atmosphere of Invisible War, but somehow it did not keep my attention for very long.

Spyhopping
23rd Apr 2012, 19:34
There are possibilities for other sensory enhancements which have always been overlooked. Very sensitive hearing would be big fun for a stealth player, eavesdropping private conversations from afar. Are olfactory enhancements too wacky for a DX game? You could track people using a feral "scent" trail in Farcry.

I'd also like to see hostile NPCs/robots being quite free to follow you into air vents. If the devs can catch you out using typical AI exploits like that it'll be fantastic. Air vents became my little cop-out safety box in HR.

m G h m u o s
23rd Apr 2012, 19:35
In all seriousness, the Mag Rail was wicked. It was tremendous power coupled with pinpoint accuracy, that could shoot through light cover. Its secondary function fired an incredibly powerful EMP that would utterly devastate robots, as well as take out cameras and whatnot in a single round. The main drawbacks were that the weapon was both difficult to find, and was only found late game. And the fact it chewed through ammo gratuitously; A few rounds with it and you'd barely have enough ammo left to fire the pistol.
It would be cool to hide high level/power weapons in early but ridiculous places. I want to say you'd have to max out every aug/skill to hacking or running/jump, but I dunno if that would discourage or make for insufficient character builds.

You know what, it reminds me of that dev tweet(?) about the laser rifle being ridiculously difficult to find in an early part of the game, but I couldn't find it anywhere. When I first saw it just resting against the wall behind Tong, I was like "....oh." But I think I did find ammo before that :s So I guess I managed to miss it.



I agree all sides really needed to be tweaked more. The worst offender was the Templar: I've spent literally the whole game murdering your agents, have never once done you a favour and I represent the perfect anti-thesis to your points. Aaaand you'll still ask for my help at the end? Are you nuts?
lol I think that applies to most games that gives you the freedom of killing npcs/allies. Even in DX1 you can get away with killing loads of civilians. Its why I really want a 'psychopath' angle in the game, where your allies/objectives will appropriately respond/change depending on those people you randomly decided should blow up.

Tverdyj
23rd Apr 2012, 20:34
There are possibilities for other sensory enhancements which have always been overlooked. Very sensitive hearing would be big fun for a stealth player, eavesdropping private conversations from afar. Are olfactory enhancements too wacky for a DX game? You could track people using a feral "scent" trail in Farcry.

I'd also like to see hostile NPCs/robots being quite free to follow you into air vents. If the devs can catch you out using typical AI exploits like that it'll be fantastic. Air vents became my little cop-out safety box in HR.

well, DX and IW had those mother-f%^&ing spider robot. They LOOOOOVED air vents......

Spyhopping
23rd Apr 2012, 21:37
Yeah! Couldn't that hunter/seeker robot also follow you into vents?

Ladders too. They are too often magical getaway NPC barriers.

Romeo
23rd Apr 2012, 21:41
It would be cool to hide high level/power weapons in early but ridiculous places. I want to say you'd have to max out every aug/skill to hacking or running/jump, but I dunno if that would discourage or make for insufficient character builds.

You know what, it reminds me of that dev tweet(?) about the laser rifle being ridiculously difficult to find in an early part of the game, but I couldn't find it anywhere. When I first saw it just resting against the wall behind Tong, I was like "....oh." But I think I did find ammo before that :s So I guess I managed to miss it.


lol I think that applies to most games that gives you the freedom of killing npcs/allies. Even in DX1 you can get away with killing loads of civilians. Its why I really want a 'psychopath' angle in the game, where your allies/objectives will appropriately respond/change depending on those people you randomly decided should blow up.
I didn't find it either, so perhaps it isn't just you. Maybe they lied.

I so agree on the psychopath angle. That'd be rad. :D

Yeah! Couldn't that hunter/seeker robot also follow you into vents?

Ladders too. They are too often magical getaway NPC barriers.
I don't remember them being able to, but the Spider Bots chilled out all the time in vents. And yes, ladders are god.

Spyhopping
23rd Apr 2012, 22:06
It's the trick if you're ever trying to catch a gamer. Allow them to climb a ladder, and they'll relax and wipe the sweat of their brow at the top.

HERESY
23rd Apr 2012, 22:07
When you knock someone (takedown or tranq) their bodies shouldn't just lay their for days. Someone should come along and harvest their organs or augs or someone should wake them up over a period of time.

m G h m u o s
23rd Apr 2012, 22:32
well, DX and IW had those mother-f%^&ing spider robot. They LOOOOOVED air vents......
Those god damn spider bots >:C To be honest I wouldn't mind if they made a return but they obvious sapped your energy or something? But yeah, I used whatever way I could to bypass those damn things.

I'm thinking the Minority Report spider bots. It'd be cool if you could get your own too, or as a deployable aug like the drone thing.


It's the trick if you're ever trying to catch a gamer. Allow them to climb a ladder, and they'll relax and wipe the sweat of their brow at the top.
Theres a really REALLY cheap scare in F3AR, where theres a like a maze in a warehouse using loads of ladders. Its just like a really cheap jumpscare, no animation, no fading in or out, just a straight up flashing image as you climb up a ladder XD

But I can't really think how to make ladders more of a gamble. I mean you can still get shot at on them.. I just can't really think of anything interesting to add to them. Maybe NPCs can retract/knock down ladders? :/


When you knock someone (takedown or tranq) their bodies shouldn't just lay their for days. Someone should come along and harvest their organs or augs or someone should wake them up over a period of time.
That sounds pretty cool. Would have been interesting if there was a mission that could happen randomly anywhere in a hub where an auged npc will get attacked/mugged and then harvested. But if you want to add that element to it, you might as well through in something with the police, maybe a tent gets set up there after you return to the hub from a mission and there are investigators and stuff.

Man, throw in the whole psychopath idea and you could turn your character into some psycho dirty cop and you'd have to break into the police station to steal the evidence otherwise you'll get arrested and have to break out of jail or something lol

Spyhopping
23rd Apr 2012, 22:44
But I can't really think how to make ladders more of a gamble. I mean you can still get shot at on them.. I just can't really think of anything interesting to add to them. Maybe NPCs can retract/knock down ladders? :/


I was thinking in terms of shutting off typical AI exploits like hiding in a vent or escaping up a ladder. Places where NPCs don't like to go, suddenly wide open to them. For example, in Fallout New Vegas I tried to escape from a ghoul by entering a shack. Didn't work.

m G h m u o s
23rd Apr 2012, 23:30
I was thinking in terms of shutting off typical AI exploits like hiding in a vent or escaping up a ladder. Places where NPCs don't like to go, suddenly wide open to them. For example, in Fallout New Vegas I tried to escape from a ghoul by entering a shack. Didn't work.
Oh, well were you imagining NPCs crawling through vents to chase you lol? I figured they'd just call out where you were specifically and just throw grenades in there, send in spider bots or flood the vents with some toxic gas.

How would you make ladders more open? Would they be able to scramble up and pull you down off the ladder? Or kick you off? :o (ps nice stuff on dA :))

Tverdyj
23rd Apr 2012, 23:38
the 2027 mod for DX that came out last year features deployable bots. One of them is a spider-bot, and takes up ton of inventory space.

I didn't get too far into the mod yet, because school and other games kept getting in the way.

EDIT: re: psycho organ harvester: I was just about to say "make that a side plot!", but then I realized I was seeing the Witcher in my DX, lol

Spyhopping
24th Apr 2012, 00:01
Oh, well were you imagining NPCs crawling through vents to chase you lol? I figured they'd just call out where you were specifically and just throw grenades in there, send in spider bots or flood the vents with some toxic gas.

How would you make ladders more open? Would they be able to scramble up and pull you down off the ladder? Or kick you off? :o (ps nice stuff on dA :))

Haha! When you put it like that, it does sound a bit daft for them to follow you in. (Thanks for the DA compliment!)

Romeo
24th Apr 2012, 00:35
If they have gas grenades, why don't NPCs toss them in the vents, where the airflow would pull in the gas and flood the whole vent?

Tverdyj
24th Apr 2012, 00:55
was there ever a game that actually simulated airflow through the vents? in a way that wasn't just a scripted solution, a la hitman?

m G h m u o s
24th Apr 2012, 01:41
If they have gas grenades, why don't NPCs toss them in the vents, where the airflow would pull in the gas and flood the whole vent?
I'm actually getting curious as to the current procedure police/authority takes when someone is just hiding in a vent... XD

Tverdyj
24th Apr 2012, 01:47
I'm guessing they bring in the janitor, who starts hitting the vent with a broom, while someone else bangs 2 pans together at the exit of the vent.

the resulting cacophony causes the wanted person to surrender.

m G h m u o s
24th Apr 2012, 02:06
Sleeping gas would make it easy I guess?

Another thing AI have trouble with is the freedom the player has with boxes/objects. You can block doors really easily and their pathfinding goes out the widnow. Having them blow up boxes with a grenade seems a bit extreme though XD I wonder how much of a stretch it'd be to let AI pick up and throw boxes. Maybe even topple larger ones for cover?

Tverdyj
24th Apr 2012, 02:45
THAT has been done, actually--see zombies in Half-life 2.

Honestly, I feel the next major thing the next DX title needs to tackle is physics--adding advanced physics to the existing gameplay is bound to bring out a plethora of new possibilities all by itself.

screw graphics, devs. WE WANT PHYSICS!!!!

m G h m u o s
24th Apr 2012, 03:17
THAT has been done, actually--see zombies in Half-life 2.
Oh yeah! :O Giving the enemies some melee ability would mix up combat a tiny bit too.

And yeah, I'd be happy if the next DX looked just like DXHR if the gameplay is quality and complex. Usually when you hear about graphics development its some minor improvement or visual effect layered on top, but if they did focus on graphics, I'd much prefer it in the animation department.

Awesome facial animations, couple with good voice acting, makes for a way better immersive experience than other graphical improvements, imo.

Btw did you mean physics like, being able to pick up and throw every little object or more for potential physics puzzles?

Tverdyj
24th Apr 2012, 04:11
both. if making levers will allow me to get somewhere i'd otherwise have to aug-jump, i'm all for that.

while tossing everyhting possible, ofc, makes stealth better.

m G h m u o s
24th Apr 2012, 06:07
It'd be cool to have some puzzles involving hacking as well, somehow. Like rerouting pipes to flood an elevator shaft to swim to the top/survive a fall to the bottom or something. I was thinking of physics puzzles as alternative solutions to hacking stuff somehow, but I can't think of any kind of physics puzzles besides the typical lever platform XD

m G h m u o s
24th Apr 2012, 18:28
Deus Ex: The first had interesting and odd locales, as well as an overall cool, varied city scape. The second (For all the hate) didn't have the same oddities, but the locales at least felt unique and different. The third is city... Everywhere.

Elder Scrolls: (I know it's not the first, but the first with some punch graphically) Morrowind was a world with purples and glowing greens highlighted by Silt Striders and cities like Vivic. Oblivion was basically forest everywhere, but with some interesting architecture and Oblivion dotted about. The third is forest... Everywhere.

Halo: Hell, even this series is like that. The first had levels in spaceships, forests, beaches, flood-infested buildings, alien architecture and alien spaceships. The second had cities, forests and alien architecture, but was much more limited in variety. The third is forest... Almost everywhere. lol
Just coming back to this after thinking a bit about what could make some strikingly different environments that actually suit the cyberpunk genre.

Some trees/grass area could be worked into an either park area or some futuristic greenhouse (I can't remember the word for a building that just has a huge variety in plants), though it'd only be strking if the trees/plants were pretty dense. Maybe some eco-friendly tech development centre where they're trying to clone faster growing trees to combat deforestation or something.

A lightshow. With holograms and everything, theres a lot of potential awesome. Night clubs and theme parks could work, but then I thought of a museum with loads of interactive augmented reality devices and holograms, could be used to give some history about the world/age. An aquarium could be awesome too.

Romeo
24th Apr 2012, 18:36
We definitely need some greenery. I love Deus Ex, but the series can be essentially summed up as Brown, followed by Silver, followed by Yellow. lol

One of my favourite things about Morrowind, and why it remains my favourite game to this day, is that everything was so enchantingly vibrant. That world was a blaze of colours, and it was amazing to walk through as a result.

m G h m u o s
24th Apr 2012, 20:37
Yeah the art style had advantages and disadvantages, but overall I don't think it hurt the game. There was potential to make use of certain colours in different areas to make them very distinguished from the rest of the orangeness of the game though. There was a lot of imagery I found striking that didn't require the variety in colour (though I suppose you can never tell :P) such as looking up/down/across lower Hengsha.

Another potential for some more colour is to liven up the trips you on when you take some zime or whatever XD

Anyway, sorta back on topic, I was thinking how more complexity/diversity could be brought to police forces of the hubs. Maybe something like a more consistent recognition, like returning to Hengsha, instead of miraculously forgetting you just tried to shoot them in the face lol. Or how about a jailing system? So the police forces are more than just a completely ruthless murderous authority. So maybe you can surrender peacefully if you put away or drop all your weapons? Then you have to break out of the jail DX1/MGS3 style. Or maybe just get bailed out by your company or something :P

Tverdyj
24th Apr 2012, 21:47
Yeah the art style had advantages and disadvantages, but overall I don't think it hurt the game. There was potential to make use of certain colours in different areas to make them very distinguished from the rest of the orangeness of the game though. There was a lot of imagery I found striking that didn't require the variety in colour (though I suppose you can never tell :P) such as looking up/down/across lower Hengsha.

Another potential for some more colour is to liven up the trips you on when you take some zime or whatever XD

Anyway, sorta back on topic, I was thinking how more complexity/diversity could be brought to police forces of the hubs. Maybe something like a more consistent recognition, like returning to Hengsha, instead of miraculously forgetting you just tried to shoot them in the face lol. Or how about a jailing system? So the police forces are more than just a completely ruthless murderous authority. So maybe you can surrender peacefully if you put away or drop all your weapons? Then you have to break out of the jail DX1/MGS3 style. Or maybe just get bailed out by your company or something :P

that's too GTA-ey for my tastes. don't get me wrong, I like sandboxes, but I don't want my immersive sim-DX turning into one.

m G h m u o s
24th Apr 2012, 22:48
that's too GTA-ey for my tastes. don't get me wrong, I like sandboxes, but I don't want my immersive sim-DX turning into one.
You mean when you just miraculously appear outside the police station? Well I was obviously omitting some details XD Your boss could call you from your jail cell and you'd only have a certain number of bail-outs, or depending on your crime you get money taken out of your salary/account.

Open worlds are tempting, but I know DX is about the globe trotting hubs and absurd detail in the levels :P

Spyhopping
24th Apr 2012, 22:51
We definitely need some greenery. I love Deus Ex, but the series can be essentially summed up as Brown, followed by Silver, followed by Yellow. lol


Greenery is something difficult to link with DX and cyberpunk, but I'd like to see them try. Doctor Who had Treeborgs... http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Treeborg

A snowy forest at night would be a good setting for some sort of evil secret facility.

m G h m u o s
24th Apr 2012, 23:47
Greenery is something difficult to link with DX and cyberpunk, but I'd like to see them try. Doctor Who had Treeborgs... http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Treeborg

I wouldn't say greenery and cyberpunk being difficult to mix :/ I mean cyberpunk is still set in a believable world, so at most you just need to make it gritty. Taking that tech-tree from DW, I'd say that was a step too far from cyberpunk, but could work as maybe some underground drug factory operation where they using genetically modified (or biologically augmented for the DX term lol) cannabis plants into thick oak trees that grow giant fruit full of psychotropic substances modified with synthetic hallucinogens and all that jazz.

Romeo
26th Apr 2012, 06:12
Theres a really REALLY cheap scare in F3AR, where theres a like a maze in a warehouse using loads of ladders. Its just like a really cheap jumpscare, no animation, no fading in or out, just a straight up flashing image as you climb up a ladder XD
There's an even better one where you climb down a ladder and see the antagonist inches away before he fades in to bloody petals. There is no preparing for that moment. lol

Greenery is something difficult to link with DX and cyberpunk, but I'd like to see them try. Doctor Who had Treeborgs... http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Treeborg

A snowy forest at night would be a good setting for some sort of evil secret facility.
Snow always ends up being the coolest (No pun intended) level in a game. Goldeneye, Halo and Crysis have my back on this. =P

m G h m u o s
26th Apr 2012, 16:42
I wonder if it'd be cool to have an explorer item/skill branch where along with jumping you can have stuff like the grappling hook, but maybe some zip-wire kit? Something that'd work similar to Batman Arkham City.

Somethings I just see stuff in a spy/sci fi/action movie and wonder if some of the cool gadgets they come up for like one scene could be cool gameplay items/systems in a game XD

Jaykarus
26th Apr 2012, 17:33
We definitely need some greenery.

YUS!
Maybe just a few of them though,since future climates might not suit those poor plants.

I wish there was more water as well.I loved that liquid-coolant thingy area in Tai Yong Medical lol

Tverdyj
26th Apr 2012, 17:33
I wonder if it'd be cool to have an explorer item/skill branch where along with jumping you can have stuff like the grappling hook, but maybe some zip-wire kit? Something that'd work similar to Batman Arkham City.

Somethings I just see stuff in a spy/sci fi/action movie and wonder if some of the cool gadgets they come up for like one scene could be cool gameplay items/systems in a game XD

I don't think it'd look cool in first-person. and by inviting third person, there will be outcries.....

m G h m u o s
26th Apr 2012, 17:47
I don't think it'd look cool in first-person. and by inviting third person, there will be outcries.....
You think? Gotham City Imposters and some CoD black ops maps have zip-wires. First person grappling hooks were done in BF2 or something too (I think it was a mod). It'd really come down to execution with the controls and model of the body, obviously if it was just like Arkham City it'd be disorienting as **** with all the hanging upside down and flipping around XD But it was just an idea.

Romeo
26th Apr 2012, 18:33
YUS!
Maybe just a few of them though,since future climates might not suit those poor plants.

I wish there was more water as well.I loved that liquid-coolant thingy area in Tai Yong Medical lol
I loved it too! One of my favourite areas in the game!

I don't think it'd look cool in first-person. and by inviting third person, there will be outcries.....
It would look splendid in first-person, why wouldn't it?

Spyhopping
26th Apr 2012, 19:12
I loved it too! One of my favourite areas in the game!


Me too! I tried to jump over the barrier and swim in it, but Jensen wasn't having any of it.

Tverdyj
26th Apr 2012, 19:29
You think? Gotham City Imposters and some CoD black ops maps have zip-wires. First person grappling hooks were done in BF2 or something too (I think it was a mod). It'd really come down to execution with the controls and model of the body, obviously if it was just like Arkham City it'd be disorienting as **** with all the hanging upside down and flipping around XD But it was just an idea.


I loved it too! One of my favourite areas in the game!

It would look splendid in first-person, why wouldn't it?

I've only see those done in third-person games. I could be wrong, obviously.

m G h m u o s
26th Apr 2012, 20:34
I've only see those done in third-person games. I could be wrong, obviously.
Yeah well such 'acrobatic' manoeuvres obviously work better in third person, but I think in first person you just need to see your legs or arm to get a further sense of wtf the character is doing.

Anywho, I was thinking about all the passive augs you start with and how they're automatic but I was wondering if it could add anything if they were 'manual'. Could get new players used to using augs? By this whole idea I mean you'd be able to turn off your whole HUD or contact people with the info-link whenever you please, like in MGS with the radio.

Tverdyj
26th Apr 2012, 21:37
making info-link manual could make the game a bit of a trial and error. As in, every time you get to a location you feel you could use some input, you spam the infolink, trying to talk to everyone, getting stock phrases.... what i'm saying is, it's hard to get right, lol.

HUD could be an option (especially for those minimalists who enjoyed Far Cry 2).
If we are talking about stuff that can be incorporated from other games/genres, I would love to have the feature from Alpha Protocol to buy intel/arrange drops on mission sites prior to the mission.
Or to learn about enemies' weaknesses from books, ala Witcher (IW actually did this, with the Templars' power armour, I believe)

m G h m u o s
26th Apr 2012, 23:34
making info-link manual could make the game a bit of a trial and error. As in, every time you get to a location you feel you could use some input, you spam the infolink, trying to talk to everyone, getting stock phrases.... what i'm saying is, it's hard to get right, lol.
Ohhh no lol. That'd just be lame XD Well I didn't mean turning off the infolink wouldn't make you go offline, obviously you'd need to recieve certain messages about missions or whatever, so my idea already fails at that point. But what I was suggesting was 'activating' it just made some message system pop up that would let you contact any specific character, whenever. I think somewhere someone said they didn't really feel any connection to the other characters, save for the awesome social convo parts, so I figured this'd be a good way to learn more about them and give them more of a story or something.


If we are talking about stuff that can be incorporated from other games/genres, I would love to have the feature from Alpha Protocol to buy intel/arrange drops on mission sites prior to the mission.
Or to learn about enemies' weaknesses from books, ala Witcher (IW actually did this, with the Templars' power armour, I believe)
The drops thing sounds pretty awesome :D Or just in any form of requesting a weapon/item and having it delivered to you, instead of it popping into your inventory, brings a little variety to the game. It could arrive at your desk or have a little weapon station in the transport heli, prepped with your requested gear.

As for the books thing, did you mean actually putting useful information in there? Or was it some extra XP that automatically goes to your skill tree? The idea sounds good though, reward for people who spend their time to read through all that stuff :P Maybe some book on military gear that reveals a specific weakness to an other-wise very difficult enemy (weak spots on bullet proof helmets or robots)

Tverdyj
27th Apr 2012, 00:28
actually useful. In IW, the super-heavy armored Templar armor only had one weak spot, that could let you 1-shot them, if hit properly. Otherwise, even a headshot wasn't lethal, and it became a major waste of ammo.

you learned how to kill them either from a datacube or a convo, I think. if it's a cube it had to be found. If it was a convo, I think it was a mission reward.

m G h m u o s
27th Apr 2012, 08:35
I think thats awesome. It could be beyond a simple weak spot just to avoid some chump getting a lucky shot =_= Maybe some delicate or even surgical process where you have to EMP it first, then damage a certain panel and then you can hack it (easier?) or something.

Could totally tie into social convo battles and stuff too.

Romeo
27th Apr 2012, 18:08
actually useful. In IW, the super-heavy armored Templar armor only had one weak spot, that could let you 1-shot them, if hit properly. Otherwise, even a headshot wasn't lethal, and it became a major waste of ammo.

you learned how to kill them either from a datacube or a convo, I think. if it's a cube it had to be found. If it was a convo, I think it was a mission reward.
It was a datacube that was the focus of a mission. An alternative function to killing Templar Heavies was the Mag Rail. Headshot was still lethal with that ridiculous thing.

Tverdyj
27th Apr 2012, 18:45
yes, Mag rail was awesome. But I was anti-WTO, so I never got it early. I usually sniped them in the weak spot.

JCpies
27th Apr 2012, 19:57
making info-link manual could make the game a bit of a trial and error. As in, every time you get to a location you feel you could use some input, you spam the infolink, trying to talk to everyone, getting stock phrases.... what i'm saying is, it's hard to get right, lol.

It worked fine in 1998 in Metal Gear Solid, it can be done today. :thumb:

Tverdyj
27th Apr 2012, 21:04
I was thinking of MGS. never got far into that, it's in the pile.

I didn't say it can't work. I'm just saying, it might take work. and for such an "overall" minor mechanic, it may be disproportionate.

m G h m u o s
27th Apr 2012, 22:25
I was thinking of MGS. never got far into that, it's in the pile.

I didn't say it can't work. I'm just saying, it might take work. and for such an "overall" minor mechanic, it may be disproportionate.
Now that I think about it, having it activated as an aug seems clunky, when you have a specific section for menus for your inventory, mission, maps, etc. Makes sense for it to be grouped in there and then its just UI and extra writing polish :P

Anticitizen
2nd May 2012, 19:55
One little thing that I'd like is the ability to pick up and carry bots. I enjoyed carrying turrets around through the Picus facility, and was annoyed that I couldn't take bots with me.

m G h m u o s
2nd May 2012, 21:35
One little thing that I'd like is the ability to pick up and carry bots. I enjoyed carrying turrets around through the Picus facility, and was annoyed that I couldn't take bots with me.
Yeah that'd be a nice addition. Along with a higher tier of hacking that could let you take direct control of the bots yourself as an alternative :P I did have fun using boxes to redirect bots to enemies though lol

A pretty shameless bump, but did you guys prefer DX1 with its very structured aug order/balance or prefer DXHRs very open freedom choices?

Zerim
4th May 2012, 16:49
HR.
I also don't like the concept of "skills". I'm very much from the camp of direct player control, like in S.T.A.L.K.E.R. or ArmA, where it has RPG elements and you can get items and so on that augment your capabilities, but things like how you move, how you aim are not dependent on some mathematical "skill point" system.

I say, if you want to be able to aim better, train YOURSELF to aim better. Not your character. I think this is a more personal, and more immersive way to translate the player into the game, and create a unique experience.

Romeo
4th May 2012, 18:07
Ah, see I'm the opposite. I aim splendidly, which means the RPG elements make a night and day difference to combat ability for me. Mass Effect (The original) on Insantity, a fight even against just a Geth Shock Trooper could get you killed, as initially, your aim was so poor you would need to let them close the gap quite a bit. Mass Effect 2 on the same difficulty was a total cakewalk in comparison, even against Geth Primes. Player skill being used is fine... In shooters. The minute RPG is involved though, I think it should directly influence combat ability.

JCpies
4th May 2012, 19:09
I say, if you want to be able to aim better, train YOURSELF to aim better. Not your character. I think this is a more personal, and more immersive way to translate the player into the game, and create a unique experience.

I understand where you're coming and agree to a degree, but the problem is that it's very easy to kill people if you have perfect aiming in game, so really, 'training' yourself to aim with the mouse is really not rewarding or just pointless.

I enjoy the RPG elements and they help me really enjoy Deus Ex 1.

Zerim
4th May 2012, 20:29
Ah, see I'm the opposite. I aim splendidly, which means the RPG elements make a night and day difference to combat ability for me.



I understand where you're coming and agree to a degree, but the problem is that it's very easy to kill people if you have perfect aiming in game, so really, 'training' yourself to aim with the mouse is really not rewarding or just pointless.

I enjoy the RPG elements and they help me really enjoy Deus Ex 1.

And I totally understand where you guys are coming from. Don't get me wrong, I think the skill-based aiming suits DX1. I wouldn't have it any other way. However, that's because that game is designed with the skill-based abilities in mind in the first place. So the A.I. is slow, they don't take cover, they don't flank, nothing. Of course, introducing direct player controlled aiming in this instance would turn the game into a shooting gallery.

So I wasn't saying that Deus Ex would've been better if it had direct player skills. I'm saying I prefer that overall design philosophy where both are done well. So if Deus Ex was instead designed in a way that would provide combat like it was in Stalker, combining with good A.I., and still keeping the multiple ways to approach situations, I think I would like it more.

Because I find the whole concept of "character skill" very off-putting. Gaming to me is all about immersion. The things that totally kill that immersion for me include:

1) Visible "points", "XP", or "damage multipliers" etc. on the screen, that hint at the fact that the gameplay isn't organic and flowing, but rather methodically, mathematically calculated.

2) Any gaps put between me and my character. My character must be my "avatar". If I can already aim well, I shouldn't have to wait for Mr. JC Denton to catch up to me. Likewise, if I can't hack worth a damn, JC Denton shouldn't be taking care of the entire deal for me. Or if I see a chest-high wall that I could easily climb over, I should be given the option to do so, instead of being forced to find a key to the gate leading to the other side of that wall. The key, of course, being located at the other end of an enemy infested city or something.

To me, this is what separates video games from cinema. In cinema, if a character does something that you would do differently if you were in their situation, all you can do is scream at the screen helplessly, saying "That IDIOT! If that was me, I would've just shot the guy!" (or something else, you know, "I would've handled that differently!")

The same thing should not happen in video games. The thing that makes video games unique, is that you ARE that guy. If you think shooting the dude is the better option, you should be able to do it. If you can aim better, you should not be restrained by the game to fit a pre-defined "correct" way to play the game.

When I become a game designer, my core gameplay philosophy will be "meta-gaming should be the default way to play".

Romeo
4th May 2012, 20:43
Interesting. That does make perfect sense, I must concede. I guess part of me is still hoping for stats for two reasons. One, I like the "progression" I feel as weapon talent increases. And two, and the much more important one to me these days, there's fewer and fewer places to get a nice stat-binge in today's market. Most games are looking to minimize stat importance (Skyrim, Kindoms of Amalur, The Witcher, Deus Ex, Mass Effect). I can think of only two games I've played in the last few years that embraced a plethora of figures: Too Human and Dark Souls. So I certainly wont argue with one more game embracing some good 'ole stats.

Zerim
4th May 2012, 21:09
Interesting. That does make perfect sense, I must concede. I guess part of me is still hoping for stats for two reasons. One, I like the "progression" I feel as weapon talent increases. And two, and the much more important one to me these days, there's fewer and fewer places to get a nice stat-binge in today's market. Most games are looking to minimize stat importance (Skyrim, Kindoms of Amalur, The Witcher, Deus Ex, Mass Effect). I can think of only two games I've played in the last few years that embraced a plethora of figures: Too Human and Dark Souls. So I certainly wont argue with one more game embracing some good 'ole stats.

I hear you. I mean I'm not on a crusade saying stat-based games are BS and the only true way to play is direct play skill or anything. It's not like there's a one "correct" way to design a game.

I feel like maybe this is what separates "Games" from "Sims". I love both, and when there's flashing effects and XP points and leveling and stuff in a game, I can appreciate it.

Sometimes we get too stuck in our terminology and it blinds us to what things really are. A game is a "game", like basketball is a game or bowling is a game, or Super Mario is a game. A game is an entertaining pursuit, where you try to overcome obstacles withing certain set rules, sometimes with a narrative.

And to me, a Sim is a totally different thing. A simulation is "Here's a representation what it would be like for you to be in this such and such hypothetical situation". To me, there is no place in that for XP points or leveling.

Neither of these are "better" or "worse" than the other. They're just different beasts. Sometimes, we get mixtures of the two, and that's where our confusion comes from. Is Deus Ex a game or a simulation? Is there a continuum between those two? And where in that continuum would Deus Ex be? Where do we each think it should be?

m G h m u o s
5th May 2012, 03:02
Trying to think of a system that could appeal to both skill based and stat based player interests..

How about a stat based system that just comes in the form of better weapons? Like when you level up a stat, you don't get some improved statistic on your character, but on a 'physical' weapon. And instead of click buttons to choose which stats you want to focus on, the game just levels whatever items/weapons you use automatically (in the background or displaying this as weapons proficiency, with an actual graph of your accuracy or something instead of XP and numbers) but at a certain set tiers you choose which stat (ie which weapon) you want to level up with (ie upgrade)? Just to sorta break away the sense that these stats are miraculously improving your characters abilities, though tbh I think you could get away with this just with augs, but still having some form of stats reflect a focused playstyle.

But Zerim, how do you feel about stats for other parts of the game, besides shooting? DXHR got a skilled based puzzle system for hacking pretty well done, for example, but does it just come down to certain use of words/terminology to cover the stats as.. more proficient hacking software you have access to because your company gave you access to it after seeing your proficiency at doing this covertly or something?

EDIT: More random ideas >_> Adding complexity to the cloaking system, so you can only appear invisible to one enemy at a time, ala Mission Impossible 4 and that fake corridor gadget.

Zerim
5th May 2012, 11:07
Trying to think of a system that could appeal to both skill based and stat based player interests..

How about a stat based system that just comes in the form of better weapons? Like when you level up a stat, you don't get some improved statistic on your character, but on a 'physical' weapon. And instead of click buttons to choose which stats you want to focus on, the game just levels whatever items/weapons you use automatically (in the background or displaying this as weapons proficiency, with an actual graph of your accuracy or something instead of XP and numbers) but at a certain set tiers you choose which stat (ie which weapon) you want to level up with (ie upgrade)? Just to sorta break away the sense that these stats are miraculously improving your characters abilities, though tbh I think you could get away with this just with augs, but still having some form of stats reflect a focused playstyle.

I've thought about this a lot before. I think it's doable, and plenty of games have done it in the past. I personally am okay with it as long as it's not the ONLY thing determining your success, and as long as the "upgrading" system isn't numbers-based. For instance, I'm totally okay with say, armor-piercing rounds or a laser sight or a higher capacity magazine for a gun, but I don't like it when it just says something like "+5 damage against robots" or something like that. I don't like the idea of "stat points", or "damage points". It takes away the organic flow from the game.

If I had a stone in my hand, and I decided to throw that stone at someone's head; I would have a pretty good idea of what'd probably happen if I threw that rock. But I could in no way know EXACTLY what would happen, and for sure, it would never be the exact same thing twice. Maybe the person would dodge my stone at the last moment. Maybe they'll get hit in the eye and get blinded, or maybe they'll just get a bruised forehead. The point is, we can't tell, because we can't calculate the formulas that have to do with the movement of that stone through the air and the strength of my arm muscles and all that jive... there's just too many variables.

But in a stat-based game, you can already tell what the stone is going to do before you even throw it. Subtract the target's armor value from your strength points plus the stone's damage modifier, or whatever system the game uses, and ta-da, you've got yourself a figure. It just turns the organic action of throwing a stone into a mathematical calculation. It's good for geeking out on some numbers, but not good for immersion.


But Zerim, how do you feel about stats for other parts of the game, besides shooting? DXHR got a skilled based puzzle system for hacking pretty well done, for example, but does it just come down to certain use of words/terminology to cover the stats as.. more proficient hacking software you have access to because your company gave you access to it after seeing your proficiency at doing this covertly or something?

Same goes for all areas, I think.

In the case of hacking, for instance, I've always wanted to see games do hacking as a skill-based thing, but upgrades could be implemented into those too. For instance, ever played the text-based "Hack-The Game", or it's UI'd child, "Uplink"? I absolutely love both of those games, and they turn hacking into an all-out thing. You need to act fast, think fast, have a good memory and a good understanding of the game's rules for hacking. But you also have upgrades, like more resilient proxy channels to slow down your tracking, or bigger memory banks, and so on.

But the point is that these upgrades are not the main factor that determines your success. Your SKILL is.

So overall, I'd say there are two main camps of gameplay in terms of player strength:

1) The Skill-based camp; which I consider myself a part of; that says the main factor determining the player's success should be the player's direct skills, such as his reflexes, decision making, ability to think on his feet, observational skills, etc.

2) The Stat-based camp; that says the main factor determining the player's success should be the stats of his character and items, and how much time he has sunk into the game (grinding) to get those better stats and items.


Most games are somewhere in the middle of the two extreme ends of that continuum. For instance, Tribes: Ascend has a weapon upgrade system that is pretty damn important if you want to be successful, but a skilled player can still hand a fully-upgraded noob his ass with the entry-level weapons as long as he's skilled enough.

For myself, I think I'm exactly at the spot where ArmA is. Mostly organic, physics-based action, with minor and obscure upgrades.

P.S. What I mean "obscure" upgrades is, like when you get a new gun it shouldn't say "+5 damage against humans" but instead say stuff like ".45 ACP, 8 rounds per magazine" and so on.


EDIT: More random ideas >_> Adding complexity to the cloaking system, so you can only appear invisible to one enemy at a time, ala Mission Impossible 4 and that fake corridor gadget.

Hm! I like it!

m G h m u o s
5th May 2012, 13:16
I've thought about this a lot before. I think it's doable, and plenty of games have done it in the past. I personally am okay with it as long as it's not the ONLY thing determining your success, and as long as the "upgrading" system isn't numbers-based. For instance, I'm totally okay with say, armor-piercing rounds or a laser sight or a higher capacity magazine for a gun, but I don't like it when it just says something like "+5 damage against robots" or something like that. I don't like the idea of "stat points", or "damage points". It takes away the organic flow from the game.
Ahah, gotcha :) But to be honest, I think "stats" is just a very easy way of conveying to a player what the heck their upgrades are gonna do lol. But ultimately I think.. if its not a big plus sign and a number in your face, it'll fly right? I mean numbers are always gonna be working in the background, particularly with an RPG/esque game with skills/upgrades. I find a skill upgrade that magically improves your weapons damage to seem off (though I totally accepted/got used to it) and for me it sounds better just to improve reload speed, draw time and recoil handling.. but in the end, those are just stats like "-2 seconds" that you just don't see.


So overall, I'd say there are two main camps of gameplay in terms of player strength:

1) The Skill-based camp; which I consider myself a part of; that says the main factor determining the player's success should be the player's direct skills, such as his reflexes, decision making, ability to think on his feet, observational skills, etc.

2) The Stat-based camp; that says the main factor determining the player's success should be the stats of his character and items, and how much time he has sunk into the game (grinding) to get those better stats and items.


Most games are somewhere in the middle of the two extreme ends of that continuum. For instance, Tribes: Ascend has a weapon upgrade system that is pretty damn important if you want to be successful, but a skilled player can still hand a fully-upgraded noob his ass with the entry-level weapons as long as he's skilled enough.
I get you, but I don't think even the original DX was much of a stat based grindfest game. Sure the more traditional RPG elements were more apparent, namely with the shooting mechanics, but the kinda games where stats come into play so heavily are.. well I can only think of MMORPGs if I'm honest. But thats just personal word association. I suppose grinding/farming has existed in even remotely RPG games, like Borderlands, but.. I wouldn't really consider the DX series one. I think DXHR is an exception because I don't think the broken XP system was intentional lol. Ah this is all vague off topic now.


P.S. What I mean "obscure" upgrades is, like when you get a new gun it shouldn't say "+5 damage against humans" but instead say stuff like ".45 ACP, 8 rounds per magazine" and so on.
I think 'obscure' is actually subjective there o.o I heard ARMA is infamous for being super realistic, so I'd imagine their ballistics physics/engine is as close to real life as possible, so more hardcore gun people will sorta just automatically understand the real life 'stats' of guns, bullet caliber and all that technical stuff.

Seeing that level of attention to detail in the descriptions of augs, weapons and ammo is just of the little things that make DX for me :P

IlliterateChild
9th May 2012, 00:06
There are many great ideas here :). I like the idea about being able to hack other augmented soldiers. Some Biological/Physiological enhancements would be a nice addition. Also maybe a satellite image uplink augmentation to replace “radar”. I really like Imprv’s idea about ‘subversion’. And Good god, please get rid of the over-abundant invisible walls and ceilings. It takes away from the realism just as much as if we were to wander out of bounds.

I have two ideas that I didn't see anyone else bring up though:

1. Much Wider Number of Augs Available

Seeing how there are (or was, depending on what is the "real ending" of HR) a variety of augmentation companies, there should be a wide variety of augs that go beyond just offering different abilities.

For instance, some companies could offer low-profile augmentations that make you look relatively human. Perhaps they are the predecessors to the nano-augmentations in the original Deus Ex. Such augmentations would allow you to stay friendly with anti-aug groups, as long as you don't blatantly reveal your augmentations. But the downside is that the augs are underpowered compared to other models.

Others could be a symbol of status that only the rich can afford. Or perhaps they are required to be a member of a group, like the gold MCB augs, or the Omarr. Being a member of a group could allow to gain access to special augmentations.

And then you could have augmentations that throw subtlety and aesthetics out the window for sheer power. I’m thinking along the lines of Barrett or Gunther, but perhaps even more extreme than that. As a result some times of game play, such as sneaking through air-ducts, could be impossible because of size and weight. Also because of your appearance people would be naturally afraid of you and you would be less able to talk your way through certain situations , but it is easier to intimidate other people.


2. Augmentations improving other Augmentations
To me it felt like the augs just gave you a new ability, but didn't really work with each-other as they should have.
For example:

- With advanced enough leg prosthesis you should have been able to use some energy to jump just high enough to trigger the Icarus Landing System, and use then use the landing-attack. It could act as a substitute for boosted reflexes, but it would be limited to areas with high ceilings.
- The typhoon seems like it could be made into a defense system. The explosions, if timed correctly, could detonate rockets or grenades before they get close enough to do damage. So perhaps boosted reflexes with the typhoon could allow you to automatically detonate incoming explosive projectiles.
- If you have enough arm strength and good aim stability, you should be able to use two pistols, machine pistols, or revolvers.
- If you have improved arm strength, leg strength and reflexes you should be able to engage in melee combat better and at the very least be able to block or dodge melee attacks of other augmented soldiers.

etc...

Romeo
9th May 2012, 04:24
I liked literally every one of your ideas (Except, perhaps, for the jump/Icarus combo, as it could be irritating).

IlliterateChild
9th May 2012, 21:21
^ Woot mod approval :) . What do you think could be irritating about the jump/Icarus combo though? If you can't jump high enough to use it, I think there could be a warning like when you don't have enough room for the typhoon.

m G h m u o s
9th May 2012, 22:08
Your idea of mixing aug choice up with the faction system is really interesting. I wouldn't want it to be a major factor though, but it would be awesome to see different NPC interactions and side missions unlocked from them.

Augs reflecting off one another sounds cool, but I think it already happens on some levels (speed + cloak, regeneration + ballistic protection/environmental resistance, power recirculator/synthetic heart). It'd be hard to come up with every augs to work well on their own but complement other augs perfectly. And ultimately you should realise that weapons and item choices come into play as much as augs, and that augs are equally just tools for the player to mess around with :P It'd be cool if there were more 'flexible' augs, though I don't really know what they could be. I'd consider the jump boost aug in the games pretty flexible, for its open ended applications, for example.


- With advanced enough leg prosthesis you should have been able to use some energy to jump just high enough to trigger the Icarus Landing System, and use then use the landing-attack. It could act as a substitute for boosted reflexes, but it would be limited to areas with high ceilings.
I'll be honest, first reading this made me think of some typical fighting game where the character jumps up and punches the ground XD


- The typhoon seems like it could be made into a defense system. The explosions, if timed correctly, could detonate rockets or grenades before they get close enough to do damage. So perhaps boosted reflexes with the typhoon could allow you to automatically detonate incoming explosive projectiles.
This sounds interesting, could be an awesome skill based alternative to an automatic projectile defence aug.


- If you have enough arm strength and good aim stability, you should be able to use two pistols, machine pistols, or revolvers.
Dual wielding.. hmm. Might work, but not sure it makes too much sense needing a strength aug to hold two pistols lol. It should totally exaggerate other typical things though. Like maybe you can just break doors down instead of needing to hack, unlock or blow them up? Or maybe when you throw away a weapon, you can knock an enemy out with the the flying gun XD


- If you have improved arm strength, leg strength and reflexes you should be able to engage in melee combat better and at the very least be able to block or dodge melee attacks of other augmented soldiers.
Expanded melee system = ho yes please. I've been thinking about a branching set for melee skills where you could learn different fighting styles for lethal, non-lethal, armed or unarmed melee combat. Throwing in styles that further compliment your playstyle, through aug choices like you suggest, would be too awesome. God damn it this will never happen and now I'm sad :c

Romeo
10th May 2012, 02:31
^ Woot mod approval :) . What do you think could be irritating about the jump/Icarus combo though? If you can't jump high enough to use it, I think there could be a warning like when you don't have enough room for the typhoon.
One of the requirements for the Typhoon is the Icarus, which slows the game down to show you "How cool you look landing, bro". It also lights up the area and leaves the player unable to react momentarily, which could be counter-productive for stealth players.

m G h m u o s
10th May 2012, 14:23
Would you guys like generic side missions thrown in the hubs? Like randomly generated crimes (mugging/harvesting), chases, debt collecting or something? Might give the hubs a little more meat but could cost the balance of augs/items depending on the economy for items/how you acquire augs.

ZakKa89
10th May 2012, 14:39
Retractable rollerskates augmentation.

m G h m u o s
10th May 2012, 15:11
Retractable rollerskates augmentation.
</thread>

Romeo
10th May 2012, 21:09
Would you guys like generic side missions thrown in the hubs? Like randomly generated crimes (mugging/harvesting), chases, debt collecting or something? Might give the hubs a little more meat but could cost the balance of augs/items depending on the economy for items/how you acquire augs.
Depends on the rate at which they happen. If every time I visit Detroit I trip over someone getting mugged the game is going to go from "fun" to "tedious" very quickly. If I want to see people constantly getting shot and robbed in Detroit, I'll just go visit Detroit. ;)

Retractable rollerskates augmentation.
Saints Row 3 did it. It is a glorious concept.

</thread>
Pretty much.

m G h m u o s
11th May 2012, 03:54
Depends on the rate at which they happen. If every time I visit Detroit I trip over someone getting mugged the game is going to go from "fun" to "tedious" very quickly. If I want to see people constantly getting shot and robbed in Detroit, I'll just go visit Detroit.
lol I kinda like those situations, if you actually reflect on yourself as the character. They'd basically be saying they didn't want to help someone out because its become annoying/tedious. It'd be cool if another character pointed that out if you avoided a conflict, though not 100% how the heck the game could detect that.

ZakKa89
11th May 2012, 20:24
Saints Row 3 did it. It is a glorious concept.


That's it. I heard the game has shark-shooting guns, and now this? I need to play it :D

Dr_Bob
12th May 2012, 11:00
Bring back melee weapons.

No cutscenes.

Ability to avoid bossfights.

More complex hacking.

Romeo
12th May 2012, 20:05
That's it. I heard the game has shark-shooting guns, and now this? I need to play it :D
It also has an Octopi Cannon that let's you brainwash people. And a Megaman-like arm gun. :D

m G h m u o s
19th May 2012, 21:23
Thinking about bringing more depth to typical augs like the infolink again, maybe not only having it so you can contact people at will but maybe even include some frequency you can control yourself (MGS3/Arkham City)? So you can find info (on computers/personal data pads or whatever) that lets you find and tune into enemy frequencies so you can listen into extra dialogue or hear their tactics (alert status or where they're moving/flanking) and maybe even hack to disable communications between enemies so they act like a hive mind all instantly know where the eff you are after shooting one dude lol.

Morgan_Everett
23rd May 2012, 09:13
There are many great ideas here :). I like the idea about being able to hack other augmented soldiers. Some Biological/Physiological enhancements would be a nice addition. Also maybe a satellite image uplink augmentation to replace “radar”. I really like Imprv’s idea about ‘subversion’. And Good god, please get rid of the over-abundant invisible walls and ceilings. It takes away from the realism just as much as if we were to wander out of bounds.

I have two ideas that I didn't see anyone else bring up though:

1. Much Wider Number of Augs Available

Seeing how there are (or was, depending on what is the "real ending" of HR) a variety of augmentation companies, there should be a wide variety of augs that go beyond just offering different abilities.

For instance, some companies could offer low-profile augmentations that make you look relatively human. Perhaps they are the predecessors to the nano-augmentations in the original Deus Ex. Such augmentations would allow you to stay friendly with anti-aug groups, as long as you don't blatantly reveal your augmentations. But the downside is that the augs are underpowered compared to other models.

Others could be a symbol of status that only the rich can afford. Or perhaps they are required to be a member of a group, like the gold MCB augs, or the Omarr. Being a member of a group could allow to gain access to special augmentations.

And then you could have augmentations that throw subtlety and aesthetics out the window for sheer power. I’m thinking along the lines of Barrett or Gunther, but perhaps even more extreme than that. As a result some times of game play, such as sneaking through air-ducts, could be impossible because of size and weight. Also because of your appearance people would be naturally afraid of you and you would be less able to talk your way through certain situations , but it is easier to intimidate other people.


2. Augmentations improving other Augmentations
To me it felt like the augs just gave you a new ability, but didn't really work with each-other as they should have.
For example:

- With advanced enough leg prosthesis you should have been able to use some energy to jump just high enough to trigger the Icarus Landing System, and use then use the landing-attack. It could act as a substitute for boosted reflexes, but it would be limited to areas with high ceilings.
- The typhoon seems like it could be made into a defense system. The explosions, if timed correctly, could detonate rockets or grenades before they get close enough to do damage. So perhaps boosted reflexes with the typhoon could allow you to automatically detonate incoming explosive projectiles.
- If you have enough arm strength and good aim stability, you should be able to use two pistols, machine pistols, or revolvers.
- If you have improved arm strength, leg strength and reflexes you should be able to engage in melee combat better and at the very least be able to block or dodge melee attacks of other augmented soldiers.

etc...
Very good ideas. I missed being able to use two machine pistols in the game, being the machine pistol kinda inferior compared with the assault rifle.

IlliterateChild
24th May 2012, 20:53
Thinking about bringing more depth to typical augs like the infolink again, maybe not only having it so you can contact people at will but maybe even include some frequency you can control yourself (MGS3/Arkham City)? So you can find info (on computers/personal data pads or whatever) that lets you find and tune into enemy frequencies so you can listen into extra dialogue or hear their tactics (alert status or where they're moving/flanking) and maybe even hack to disable communications between enemies so they act like a hive mind all instantly know where the eff you are after shooting one dude lol.

This seems reasonable, and I think it would fit in well. In retrospect it seems a bit odd you have to run up to computers to hack into things, when so much information is wireless these days.

m G h m u o s
27th May 2012, 18:37
Technical limitations aside, how big and open would you prefer the hubs/environments? A GTA island? Or is it more about them being able just to fill it all with detail? Always wondered if vehicles could work in the hubs if they were big enough.

Romeo
27th May 2012, 20:13
Smaller but more open/optioned has always served the Deus Ex series well, and I'd like to see them continue on that trend. In fact, if I had any wish about environments in the next one, size would be irrelevent to me, I'd like to see more "secret" stuff, and more stuff that isn't presented to you, but suggested (As in, getting information about inferring things from the environment, such as a conspiracy theorist's house being ransacked).

Jerion
28th May 2012, 02:08
Smaller but more open/optioned has always served the Deus Ex series well, and I'd like to see them continue on that trend. In fact, if I had any wish about environments in the next one, size would be irrelevent to me, I'd like to see more "secret" stuff, and more stuff that isn't presented to you, but suggested (As in, getting information about inferring things from the environment, such as a conspiracy theorist's house being ransacked).

My $0.02:

I'd prefer hubs to remain roughly the size of Detroit and Hengsha, perhaps a little larger. More important than sheer size though, I'd prefer a change in the way they are laid out. Essentially I'd like more convenient alternate routes from any given point on one side to another point on the opposite side. Needing to go through the metro station or the tiny tunnel to go from Jensen's apartment or Derelict Row to Sarif and back...just got mildly tiresome after a while. Every sandbox or hub-ish RPG has this problem of quests making you criss-cross the same area several times; a bit more flexibility and ease of travel would go a long way towards making that less aggravating. Hengsha was excellent about this next to Detroit, but it had elements of it too.

One of my favorite non-Jensen-Apartment spots in Detroit was the illegal aug shop in that one apartment building. It's unmentioned and plot-irrelevant presence despite the general implication that such places existed was fantastic. It just added an intangible sense of depth to the world. The goodie stashed there was nice too. :p

Romeo
28th May 2012, 07:47
My $0.02:

I'd prefer hubs to remain roughly the size of Detroit and Hengsha, perhaps a little larger. More important than sheer size though, I'd prefer a change in the way they are laid out. Essentially I'd like more convenient alternate routes from any given point on one side to another point on the opposite side. Needing to go through the metro station or the tiny tunnel to go from Jensen's apartment or Derelict Row to Sarif and back...just got mildly tiresome after a while. Every sandbox or hub-ish RPG has this problem of quests making you criss-cross the same area several times; a bit more flexibility and ease of travel would go a long way towards making that less aggravating. Hengsha was excellent about this next to Detroit, but it had elements of it too.

One of my favorite non-Jensen-Apartment spots in Detroit was the illegal aug shop in that one apartment building. It's unmentioned and plot-irrelevant presence despite the general implication that such places existed was fantastic. It just added an intangible sense of depth to the world. The goodie stashed there was nice too. :p
Two words, my friend: Quick-travel.

Five more words: Deus Next should have it.

Seven more words: Because it would be so totally awesome.

Two final words: And convenient.

Elephant. This is also a word, though entirely unrelated to the previous chain.

m G h m u o s
28th May 2012, 09:46
Fast travel? Do you mean to different hubs? Or across larger ones like the Hengsha railway?

But yeah I agree with Jerion that Detroit was missing something. More rooftop stuff would have been cool. Seeing someone glitch ontop of the metro cart line and have to sprint to each pillar and jump over the incoming cart otherwise they'd be pushed off.. seemed just too awesome XD

Romeo
28th May 2012, 15:12
Fast travel? Do you mean to different hubs? Or across larger ones like the Hengsha railway?

But yeah I agree with Jerion that Detroit was missing something. More rooftop stuff would have been cool. Seeing someone glitch ontop of the metro cart line and have to sprint to each pillar and jump over the incoming cart otherwise they'd be pushed off.. seemed just too awesome XD
Just the ability to travel to the "notes" on maps. Jensen's apartment, the clinic, work, and the various apartments. You could just select them and teleport (Tellyporta for our Orcs in the audiance) there.

xaduha
28th May 2012, 15:57
Two words, my friend: Quick-travel.

Five more words: Deus Next should have it.

Seven more words: Because it would be so totally awesome.

Two final words: And convenient.

Elephant. This is also a word, though entirely unrelated to the previous chain.

I'd rather have an elephant in the game.
Come on, people! Immersion, first and foremost.

Darn, where is that DX1 design quote when you need one? The point was if you were given a handkerchief from a diner with some text scribbled on it, then all you have is a handkerchief from a diner! Not "here, let me show it on your map" :mad2:


Because it would be so totally awesome.

What a shame.

68_pie
28th May 2012, 17:10
Two words, my friend: Quick-travel.

Which has improved what game when?


Five more words: Deus Next should have it.

And lose even more immersion?


Seven more words: Because it would be so totally awesome.

Cool **** TM


Two final words: And convenient.

True but equally a well designed level would invalidate the need for quick-travel or at least not make you mind its absence.

Romeo
28th May 2012, 17:23
I'd rather have an elephant in the game.
Come on, people! Immersion, first and foremost.

Darn, where is that DX1 design quote when you need one? The point was if you were given a handkerchief from a diner with some text scribbled on it, then all you have is a handkerchief from a diner! Not "here, let me show it on your map" :mad2:



What a shame.
I'm not saying "Hey Adam, meet me here" (AREA REVEALED!). I'm saying if you know where Adam's apartment is in Detroit, rather than having to slog it back and forth each and every time, you could just click it and load it up. I like the environments - I really do. But they're slightly less fun when you're on your 300th time going back and forth between two areas.

Which has improved what game when?



And lose even more immersion?



Cool **** TM



True but equally a well designed level would invalidate the need for quick-travel or at least not make you mind its absence.
The simple fact remains, if you rely upon level design to make up the difference, one of three things happen: You either get open, boring terrain, which kills level design. You get unrealistic shortcuts cutting in everywhere, which kills level design. And regardless, that still keeps levels small, as running from point a to point b still takes a certain amount of time. Case in point: Elder Scrolls. All the level design in the world still wont make a trek from northwest Morrowind to southeast Morrowind quick.

I do appreciate immersion - I really do. But at the point where immersion and enjoyment start to become mutually-exclusive options, I draw the line. So, fast travel to "important points" that have been discovered allows people like me to not have to constantly traverse the same path, while not forcing people like yourself to use it.

68_pie
28th May 2012, 17:36
The simple fact remains, if you rely upon level design to make up the difference, one of three things happen: You either get open, boring terrain, which kills level design. You get unrealistic shortcuts cutting in everywhere, which kills level design. And regardless, that still keeps levels small, as running from point a to point b still takes a certain amount of time.

Well, we'll agree to disagree. I believe that you can make a medium-scale environment that is densely populated with interesting locales, events and people with a realistic and natural street plan that you don't get bored of traversing. I think this can be as much to do with quest design as level design. For me, VtM: Bloodlines is a case in point.


Case in point: Elder Scrolls. All the level design in the world still wont make a trek from northwest Morrowind to southeast Morrowind quick.

Which is why you have methods of movement built into the world that make sense: silt-striders; boats; mages' guild teleports; mark and recall spells. You don't blunt force picking a spot on the map and just appearing there.


I do appreciate immersion - I really do. But at the point where immersion and enjoyment start to become mutually-exclusive options, I draw the line. So, fast travel to "important points" that have been discovered allows people like me to not have to constantly traverse the same path, while not forcing people like yourself to use it.

I would argue that they don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Romeo
28th May 2012, 18:13
Well, we'll agree to disagree. I believe that you can make a medium-scale environment that is densely populated with interesting locales, events and people with a realistic and natural street plan that you don't get bored of traversing. I think this can be as much to do with quest design as level design. For me, VtM: Bloodlines is a case in point.



Which is why you have methods of movement built into the world that make sense: silt-striders; boats; mages' guild teleports; mark and recall spells. You don't blunt force picking a spot on the map and just appearing there.



I would argue that they don't have to be mutually exclusive.
I recognize that is a matter of opinion, so I can live with that.

Not saying a fast travel system couldn't be a similar set-up (Subway, rapid transit, etc), but the fact remains, they do recognize that to do "big" you need to have an alternative to running everywhere - it gets dull. I like what Fallout 3 did. You could fast travel to places you visited, but unlike Oblivion you had to first travel on foot and discover places.

I would argue the same - which is why I proposed something that doesn't infringe on either group. If you don't like the system, you can still run around on foot. ;)

xaduha
28th May 2012, 18:48
One of my favorite non-Jensen-Apartment spots in Detroit was the illegal aug shop in that one apartment building. It's unmentioned and plot-irrelevant presence despite the general implication that such places existed was fantastic. It just added an intangible sense of depth to the world. The goodie stashed there was nice too. :p
Where is that? O'Malleys' building, Seurats'? Or another?

Jerion
28th May 2012, 19:23
Where is that? O'Malleys' building, Seurats'? Or another?

O'Malley's building, I want to say. I'm not 100% sure on that though.

JCpies
28th May 2012, 20:09
That was a pretty cool nook in Detroit. I think I heard about it from a note on the corpse in the secret area behind the fence, that was a pretty cool area too.

m G h m u o s
28th May 2012, 20:29
I think fast travel could work. It just depends on the implementation if you're concerned about immersion. Like for a medium-large hub could totally have fast travel in the form of a taxi service, but ultimately it comes down to where the loading screens are :P


That was a pretty cool nook in Detroit. I think I heard about it from a note on the corpse in the secret area behind the fence, that was a pretty cool area too.

I found that corpse just by exploring and the note on him totally lost me, I felt like I was missing the start of a little puzzle or something.

JCpies
28th May 2012, 21:08
I think fast travel could work. It just depends on the implementation if you're concerned about immersion. Like for a medium-large hub could totally have fast travel in the form of a taxi service, but ultimately it comes down to where the loading screens are :P

This is pretty much what the metro in Heng Sha is like.


I found that corpse just by exploring and the note on him totally lost me, I felt like I was missing the start of a little puzzle or something.

Ah unlucky, did you ever find the place anyway?

m G h m u o s
31st May 2012, 12:36
This is pretty much what the metro in Heng Sha is like.
Yeah if a taxi loaded you straight into the apartment lobby area, that wouldn't have been fine right?


Ah unlucky, did you ever find the place anyway?
Er whut? o.o I found the body behind the wall, in the street? But I only went info scavenging in my first playthrough and sorta overwhelmed myself with all the personal secretary things lol.

I was thinking about what makes Deus Ex and was wondering if it interesting if every augmentation you choose permanently, there is/are items that deliver the same ability but to a somewhat limited and brief temporary extent? Is that.. balancing choice with improvisation or something lol?

m G h m u o s
22nd Jun 2012, 15:34
I was thinking about ammo types and was wondering how far modifiers (like combining mine templates with grenade types) could be taken?

Like, if you have all the weapon ammo in a game, but then the modifiers are universal. So an EMP or gas modifier could not only be applied to a grenade or mine, but also to ammo for guns? Not sure if thats lowering complexity or opening up options for more flexible/creative play or both lol

Romeo
22nd Jun 2012, 17:51
I was thinking about ammo types and was wondering how far modifiers (like combining mine templates with grenade types) could be taken?

Like, if you have all the weapon ammo in a game, but then the modifiers are universal. So an EMP or gas modifier could not only be applied to a grenade or mine, but also to ammo for guns? Not sure if thats lowering complexity or opening up options for more flexible/creative play or both lol
I think it'd be cool, personally. Not to turn this in to COD or anything, but I think it'd be awesome to see more modification 'slots' in weapons. AP/Non-Lethal/EMP for ammo type. Reflex sights/Scopes/Iron Sights for sights. Bayonet/Grenade Launcher/Laser Sight for underbarrel. Crap like that. Barrels, grips and stocks could be made in to "package deals" to go for potent semi-autos, or bullet-hoses, or anything in between.

JCpies
22nd Jun 2012, 20:29
When's Deus Ex karting being released? I swear it's become vaporware.

Ashpolt
22nd Jun 2012, 20:40
When's Deus Ex karting being released? I swear it's become vaporware.

Soon™.

Romeo
23rd Jun 2012, 02:26
Soon™.
Wait, since when was Blizzard develloping it?