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lastpawn
10th Apr 2012, 21:12
Maybe I'm in the clear minority here, but I'd like to play one. Adam was cutting-edge for his time; JC was cutting-edge for his time.

On the balance, I like what HR did with mechanical augmentations, essentially refining it from the crude "oily machinery" concept in the original. It would be interesting to play a mechanically augmented protagonist in a world with nanotechnology. You'd come up against opponents who are technologically superior to you, causing you to rely on your skill rather than simply being built better.

Tverdyj
10th Apr 2012, 21:34
interesting concept, but I don't see it being taken up by devs, unless we're talking about mods.

in games, there's usually as a given a sense of progression, so that towards the end, the player is superior.
unless the PC gets upgraded throughout the game to equal and surpass nano-augs, I just don't see it happening.

Ashpolt
10th Apr 2012, 21:59
I think that sounds like a great idea, for story reasons as much as gameplay: you, as the player, would have to deal with being an obsolete model in an ever-advancing world, a problem Gunther and Anna struggled with in the first game.

Locutus of BORG
10th Apr 2012, 23:15
I think that sounds like a great idea, for story reasons as much as gameplay: you, as the player, would have to deal with being an obsolete model in an ever-advancing world, a problem Gunther and Anna struggled with in the first game.
This would be a really good direction to take AJ for a follow-up of DXHR. Just sayin'. ;)

Stellazira
11th Apr 2012, 01:07
This sounds like something interesting. Definitely something to think about...

lastpawn
11th Apr 2012, 02:04
interesting concept, but I don't see it being taken up by devs, unless we're talking about mods.

in games, there's usually as a given a sense of progression, so that towards the end, the player is superior.
unless the PC gets upgraded throughout the game to equal and surpass nano-augs, I just don't see it happening.

All right, but superior doesn't have to mean "stronger." It also includes our skill/ingenuity as players. In fact, in most video games the antagonist is stronger than the protagonist, yet we beat them--one way or another--which is what, in part, makes us feel good about it. :)

Tverdyj
11th Apr 2012, 02:46
All right, but superior doesn't have to mean "stronger." It also includes our skill/ingenuity as players. In fact, in most video games the antagonist is stronger than the protagonist, yet we beat them--one way or another--which is what, in part, makes us feel good about it. :)

of course, you are right. but the PC would need to be able to "compensate" in some fashion--essentially, if you introduce nano-augs as "regular" enemies early on in the game, the expectation is, by the end you're capable of handling them, without too much effort.

this could open interesting possibilities, if the abilities of the PC are different from those of the enemies--who are still more advanced in one way, but the player is more skilled in other, more "lateral" ways.

and don't get me wrong, I LIKE the idea--I'm just being realistic about how likely it is in the current "industry".....

nomotog
11th Apr 2012, 05:09
interesting concept, but I don't see it being taken up by devs, unless we're talking about mods.

in games, there's usually as a given a sense of progression, so that towards the end, the player is superior.
unless the PC gets upgraded throughout the game to equal and surpass nano-augs, I just don't see it happening.

Your post reminds me of an old extra punctuation episode. The idea was for a game to basically level you backwards. You would start off with all the powers and slowly lose them as you progress. DX is one of the few game types were that would actually work and be fun.

SDF121
11th Apr 2012, 08:49
Speaking of choice and consequence, I always thought that it would be interesting to see ones choices applied to whether or not one wanted to augment themselves. For example, you would start the game without any augmentations as you are nothing more than a normal human being. However, if you wanted to, you would have the option to augment yourself throughout the game or remain pure. Both routes would come with their own unique set of missions and challenges and provide for another layer of choice within the game that would be interesting to see. Perhaps to compensate for the lack of augmented abilities, the pure player could have a set of tools to assist him with lock picking, hacking, and night vision.

TrickyVein
11th Apr 2012, 12:15
However, if you wanted to, you would have the option to augment yourself throughout the game or remain pure. Both routes would come with their own unique set of missions and challenges and provide for another layer of choice within the game that would be interesting to see.

This sounds so familiar, but I can't quite figure out which game in development promised exactly what you describe...

Jerion
11th Apr 2012, 12:30
This would be a really good direction to take AJ for a follow-up of DXHR. Just sayin'. ;)

It would! If EM were really set on using AJ as the protagonist again, the transition to nanotech among the augmented elite would be an excellent way for him to slowly lose his advantages.

McFlabbergasty
12th Apr 2012, 14:51
Your post reminds me of an old extra punctuation episode. The idea was for a game to basically level you backwards. You would start off with all the powers and slowly lose them as you progress. DX is one of the few game types were that would actually work and be fun.

You just referenced what is perhaps my favorite game idea ever to come out of Yahtzee.

I think that scenario would be a *perfect* fit for the themes of the Deus Ex narrative (not to mention making gameplay a gut-wrenching ride of "What must I lose now?").

This being Deus Ex, I think it should be the player's choice what augs they lose as the game goes on.

Maybe they could justify it by having the protagonist's (presumably mechanical) augs slowly shut down for some reason. Maybe MJ-12 is doing it. Who knows.

Maybe by the beginning of the final level you could be almost completely powered down to factory zero. You engage in some kind of confrontation with your main foes, aided by only a single aug. But then there's a surprise fight after that where you regain the rest of your functionality. A "True Final Boss" according to tvtropes.org.

And then the game is actually over. Cue ending based on player's choices throughout the story.

Tverdyj
12th Apr 2012, 16:56
the above reminded me-Blizzard did this with Arthas in Frozen throne.

lastpawn
12th Apr 2012, 18:59
the above reminded me-Blizzard did this with Arthas in Frozen throne.

Yeah, I enjoyed that. But as I recall, Arthas still progressed upward via item drops--and of course Warcraft 3 is about more than hero units.

I think the idea of "leveling backwards" would be great for a section of the game. Something like: level up, level down, level up again, not necessarily in equal parts. So first you're introduced to augments sequentially, you find out which ones you like, which ones you don't... and then you have to strategically decide which ones to do without. Then, finally, you get some back.

Tverdyj
12th Apr 2012, 21:56
Arthas had items, but every chapter you played with him, he was a level weaker (with weaker abilities), untill you hit the last level, in icecrown, at which point you regained the ability to level up.

Ashpolt
13th Apr 2012, 00:57
Your post reminds me of an old extra punctuation episode. The idea was for a game to basically level you backwards. You would start off with all the powers and slowly lose them as you progress. DX is one of the few game types were that would actually work and be fun.

Oh my god, that sounds amazing. Not for Deus Ex - absolutely not - but for (shock) a new IP. As McFlabbergasty said, you should get to choose which powers / moves you discard as you go along, and by the end of the game you should be factory zero....except for one power. Imagine the agonising decisions you'd have to make after you'd stripped out the superfluous guff (goodbye, expanded radar) and got down to a core of 4 or 5 frequently used abilities. Things you use all the time, but you've got to get rid of one of them to proceed....oh, it'd be wonderful.

And forget the "true final boss" where you've got all your powers back. The final boss should be a fist fight, with you seriously wounded. Heck, it worked (big time) for MGS4.

I would seriously pay a lot of money to play this game. Someone (with talent) get on Kickstarter.

Senka
14th Apr 2012, 03:56
Interesting idea.

It does create a few complications of its own though, like how you justify the character becoming *weaker* as the game progresses. If you could sort that out, I think that gameplay model would work quite well for a game like STALKER. The early game you're quite weak until you start finding better gear, money to buy/upgrade/repair that gear, and different ammo types, artifacts, suits, etc etc etc. It's very very rewarding when you find a gun you've been looking for, or a new suit that'll let you use that artifact you've been saving. However, by the endgame, once you've FINALLY got all the gear you want, there isn't much left to do. That's a bit of a downer.

So, reverse STALKER. You start with the best gear, but how do you lose it? You couldn't, unless you had scripted events to take your stuff away from you. So I'm not sure how you could handle that in a game like STALKER. It'd be hard not to frustrate the player since most of the fun is finding good stuff.

But with a game like Legend of Grimrock, I think this could work quite well. You start off with lots of skills, and as you fight the tough starting monsters, you lose XP and start losing skills/abilities. Your party becomes weaker. Enemies would probably have to be weaker too. Unless you've played the game before, the difficulty curve would be quite skewed, which is why this idea would be best tested in a mod. Perhaps when the grimrock editor comes out something like this will be possible to test. Designing appropriate levels wouldn't be too hard, not sure how you'd program the leveling-down system though.

Jerion
14th Apr 2012, 04:48
Well, if you go to a redundantly parallel approach roughly similar to what the original DX had of Skills and Augs, you could effectively force a trade as you progress through the game: Sacrifice pre-applied skill points for augs or vice versa. That way, the player gains an ability or proficiency of their choosing (feels good!), and sacrifices an ability or proficiency of their choosing (hard decision!). It wouldn't exactly be straightforward- some sort of plot device could be contrived where in order to preserve passive functions, resources from active ones must be reclaimed over time. Or some such. That sort of system though would, instead of a steady gear-down, force a periodical shifting and rebalancing of aug powers.

Hell, I'm sure that if it were a DX-series game, there could be something about increased reliance on health kits as the game wears on. :D

sonicsidewinder
14th Apr 2012, 12:35
This sounds so familiar, but I can't quite figure out which game in development promised exactly what you describe...

lol. whatever happened to 'that' game...

m G h m u o s
14th Apr 2012, 14:14
The levelling backwards idea sounds interesting but I can't imagine it working as a major gameplay mechanic without detailing the specifics.. I mean surely you'd just be left with a "oh damn it THAT was that ability I should have given up.." feeling when you come across certain obstacles?

It'd be about compromise, whereas DX is about freedom of choice.

The concept is really cool though.. to give the player a sense of desperation?

I had a sorta similar idea where you'd have to "prioritise" your augmentations or abilities, with a system your augmentations can get hacked and disabled, so you'd have to make a hack network with augs as major nodes and you'd have to put them in order of which ones you'd be willing to lose first.

Playing off the old technologically outdated protagonist, maybe as your mech augs break down and you have to get rid of them, should the player get the choice to replace the lost mech augs or upgrade to get nano augs or something?

I dunno how the difficulty would scale.. so you'd start totally overpowered? That'd make the tutorial pretty easy lol. Theres a lot of potential of interesting elements here though. Towards the end when you've lost a lot of your abilities you could encounter the same enemies from the very start of the game to give you a perspective of how far you've come.

Not to mention you could throw in the whole aug vs purist thing. I feel like DX was really missing a level where all your augmentations are remotely disabled and you have to escape/survive, a step up from being captured in DX1. And then you have to choice a single aug to activate.

... then again, not exactly sure how a mech auged person would be getting around without their arms or legs =.=

nomotog
15th Apr 2012, 00:38
The idea of leveling backwards dosen't work for all game types. Like it can't really work in an RPG. You need to have a more action oriented system because the player needs to learn new skills even as there character is losing skills. It would work well with DX gameplay because losing skills should force you to explore and come up with more uses for your increasingly smaller skill power pool.

Coming up with a reason for you to slowly lose power isn't all that hard. Aug rejection, the grey death, a kill switch that actually dose something. Maybe it could be a choice that the player makes. Voluntary turning off their super powers for a greater good, or to be more human.

TrickyVein
15th Apr 2012, 05:59
What's to keep people from using only those skills that are left to you out of the total number from the beginning? Maybe it would be better left up to the player to - at each 'level-down' - decide which skill to lose (much in the same way you can imagine choosing a new one each time you level up).

Jaykarus
25th Apr 2012, 13:21
... then again, not exactly sure how a mech auged person would be getting around without their arms or legs =.=

^ I lol'd

Considering the fact that mech augs require higher maintenance,Adam might have to meet black market aug dealers and 'doctors'.

It might be interesting if they DO make a sequel then it could have a feature where Adam could make some improvisations on himself.
Adam doesn't know much about saiyuns (;3) so I dunno what kind of a mess that would turn out to be...


http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/9263/1308486299881.jpg


I never asked for this

Angel-A
25th Apr 2012, 15:29
That picture is so beautiful with its hilarity.

...Wait, Adam Jensen eats three cereals at once? His mouth is augmented.

Jaykarus
25th Apr 2012, 16:54
That picture is so beautiful with its hilarity.

It comes with some nostalgia as well.
Remember the Gunther Hermann RPer?
He commented on the location of the spoon.Something about augmentations down there :whistle:



...Wait, Adam Jensen eats three cereals at once? His mouth is augmented.
:lol:

Zoet
25th Apr 2012, 21:25
Speaking of levelling backwards, the iOS indie darling Sword and Sworcery EP is a game that I can think of that actually does this. It isn't the most complicated of games by any means, and there aren't many fights in it; but basically after every 'boss fight' you walk away with less total health than you had in the first place, leaving you with a single hit point to fight the final battle with. Your character weakens visibly as well, coughing and staggering in pain. This all ties into the game's story and atmosphere.

So, I think having an outdated protagonist could be good for a future DX game, seeing as I liked Adam as a lead character and it would be a logical continuation of the story. However, the mechanic of having your abilities slowly stripped away is something more suited to a survival-focussed game, something like a game version of The Road. Ending in the death (or miraculous rescue), of the player character.

FrankCSIS
25th Apr 2012, 23:08
I'm madly in love with this idea.

Technoligically outdated, by extension sociologically impaired, this is so very cyberpunk. The kind of protagonist Phil K Dick would have written for a game!

m G h m u o s
26th Apr 2012, 01:08
If I'm honest I don't like the sound of revisiting AJ, but I'm not sure what it is. Maybe it just throws up the idea that you can make a 'wrong' decision at the end of DXHR. But I'm probably just fooling myself and I'd end up not minding a cameo at all.

Sorta playing off the losing abilities/downgrading theme, it'd be cool if we actually got the exact opposite of the DX1 BE system, where you can use your augs however you want but you have to take neuropozyne or some other drug to keep them functioning and usage raises your bodies requirement for the stuff.

To keep the themes of conspiracy of DX I wonder how such a character could become an influential figure. I find the typical 'more advanced technology becoming disabled/controlled/manipulated' pretty much cliche.


Technoligically outdated, by extension sociologically impaired, this is so very cyberpunk. The kind of protagonist Phil K Dick would have written for a game!
It'd be great to have more personal moments where a group of kids start making fun of you or something, some really slow paced stuff where you can get the perspective of society before jumping over buildings and shooting rockets up their ass.

McFlabbergasty
26th Apr 2012, 02:38
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/9263/1308486299881.jpg



And my eyes immediately zeroed in on the clock. Who in the world eats cereal at 04:51, AM or PM? Nice door code in-joke, though. :)

TrickyVein
26th Apr 2012, 04:17
Yeah, so Detroit is around 42ยบ N which definitely means it's pm and probably transitioning into or out of winter judging by the angle of the sun's rays through the apartment window? You also wouldn't get the reddish scattering effect that early in the morning. I mean where does the sun actually rise that early in the morning anywhere?

m G h m u o s
30th Apr 2012, 19:13
Was thinking about other ideas to do with this and trying to think how to convey his social status in a half-life 2 esque way. Maybe in the first hub, before the main story kicks in, you've got a really really small apartment (like a super compact one, the size of a cupboard) and you have to pay a lot for the maintenance nanites/drugs/whatever for your augs and you're really strapped for cash. So you have to do loads of menial little jobs that are barely side quests, like moving some boxes of stuff for someone or dropping off some drugs for a deal, just to convey how far down on the food chain you are.

And if you don't do the quests, the typical DX comes in at another level and you can just steal some, or rob some people for the money.

m G h m u o s
1st May 2012, 18:52
God damn. This idea is really really starting to grow on me. Imagine if when you went on missions, you didn't even really have allies. In DX and HR your UNATCO/SWAT buddies were at least friendly to some kind of receptive to you. But imagine if they all just were flat out douches and treated you like that combine officer telling you to 'pick up that can'. Maybe they could send you to do extra demeaning chours just for extra credits you might need to make. Just to make some contrast from the previous games where you're a character of some respectability.

Also, maybe before becoming a major player in a plot of conspiracy and such, you could be even less than a pawn. Maybe you're sweeped up to be experimented on or have some dangerous bio-nano aug they need to test on humans and it ends up slowly destroying your mech augs.