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nomotog
9th Mar 2012, 20:25
It's been awhile and I want to talk about DX again. So here is the challenge. I want to see you define DX. Define what makes a game DX like, but here is the kicker. You have to do it in as few words as you can and as simple as possible. Also try to avoid describing it in a way that can be applied to games that aren't DX. Like don't define the game as first person because we have a lot of first person games that aren't DX like.

I'll kick it off here. I define DX as the ability to cheat. The ability to cheat the game, cheat the world and cheat the people in it. You see it's not just choice that makes a DX game. Lots of games give you choices, but DX lets you cheat the choices they give you. You don't just pick guns or lock pick, you can pick guns and shoot off the lock. Basically it's the ability to cheat.

Ashpolt
9th Mar 2012, 20:55
Immersive sim leads to emergent gameplay.

Zerim
9th Mar 2012, 21:20
A bomb.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
9th Mar 2012, 22:07
A conspiracy...

Pretentious Old Man.
9th Mar 2012, 22:31
Allowed to fail; emergent solutions.

TrickyVein
9th Mar 2012, 22:58
Air ducts.

Serious. Whenever it happens in every other game I've played, I think of DX. Air ducts ≈ secrecy, stealth gameplay, non-confrontational solutions and discovery.

Paxton Fettel
10th Mar 2012, 10:35
For me it's the obervation on a more advanced society and me, getting to know this society and make decisions to "rescue" this society.

OMGITSJASON
10th Mar 2012, 22:25
Choice

Uzuki
10th Mar 2012, 22:31
Wading.

Ashpolt
11th Mar 2012, 01:01
Swimming is fairly useless.

TrickyVein
11th Mar 2012, 01:03
Stick with the prod.

xaduha
11th Mar 2012, 19:17
"Vox populi - vox Dei"
or "E pluribus unum"?
You get the idea.

McFlabbergasty
12th Mar 2012, 02:23
UNATCO hurt my weenie.

Jerion
12th Mar 2012, 02:53
Delicious, augmented cake.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Mar 2012, 10:07
1. Hexagons rule. :cool:

wOv0AkphLhE&feature=pyv&ad=4232609694&kw=magic

__


2. Prepare for the inevitable, one day... we will become like the Omar. :p

urVXWUD8Q3Y

__


3. The future is Vegetarian... :whistle:

F_onfw_1oRc&feature=related

First lab-grown hamburger later this year...


Dutch scientists have used stem cells to create strips of muscle tissue with the aim of producing the first lab-grown hamburger later this year.

The aim of the research is to develop a more efficient way of producing meat than rearing animals.


Read more here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16972761





PS. I like this thread... awaiting responses. :naughty:

68_pie
12th Mar 2012, 12:02
MyImmortal, would you eat the lab-grown hamburger? Would you class it as meat? I can't remember whether your objection is moral or based on something else.

TrickyVein
12th Mar 2012, 12:11
YES! I want to have this conversation again :)

Ilves
12th Mar 2012, 12:30
I want to see you define DX


There's more, but first thing that comes to mind is


Faceless Lady Liberty.


More than anything DX is an American story; I love how fitting an icon the damaged statue is for the post 9/11 era, and how relevant DX is in that context.

But hey! Whatever has become of that burgertrip competition? (or was it hotdogs, I forget) http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg705/scaled.php?server=705&filename=29825730.gif&res=medium

Reven
12th Mar 2012, 13:02
But hey! Whatever has become of that burgertrip competition? (or was it hotdogs, I forget) http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg705/scaled.php?server=705&filename=29825730.gif&res=medium

Someone won it but didn't collect the prize (a fun weekend in sunny detroit) we even had a rustlers rep on the forums trying to find the lucky winner but nothing came of it.

Ilves
12th Mar 2012, 14:36
Someone won it but didn't collect the prize (a fun weekend in sunny detroit) we even had a rustlers rep on the forums trying to find the lucky winner but nothing came of it.

Bummer. So they didn't go with a runner-up then? Odd. :/

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Mar 2012, 15:01
MyImmortal, would you eat the lab-grown hamburger? Would you class it as meat? I can't remember whether your objection is moral or based on something else.

Good questions!

My objection is based solely on the fact that I do not believe (at all) that we have a right to treat any sentient animal as if it were a machine (ie. factory farming). This practice makes me feel ashamed to be human... and I love humankind, so I don't like to feel this way about my species. I believe we can do a better job at feeding ourselves. Much better.

I would classify it as "meat" in technical terms, yes. It's still flesh, per se, but without the bone... and the fat... and other bits of animal. But, most importantly, lab meat completely removes factory-farming and suffering (animals, human and environment) from the equation and releases the earth's resources for better use. So it's thumbs-up from me. :thumb:

Doubt I would be interested in eating it myself as part of a regular diet but I may "just give it a try" if I ever see it on the high street during my lifetime. I'm happy to support anything that is tested as safe and beneficial and will bring an end to factory-farm practices.

TrickyVein
12th Mar 2012, 17:40
I agree with you on this point, Vik (and I'm not meaning to derail the thread but this stuff is cool to discuss :)):

Wielding the power you have - and anymore it seems to be the only power you have - as a consumer, it seems the best way to end industrial farming practices is to buy free-range meat and support local farms and butchers. Drive the market in another direction. It's expensive, which is even a greater thing because meat should be eaten rarely if at all, and taste that much better too. And honestly, if people were aware of the other choices that are out there and the difference there is between insecticide-laden, factory meat and what you can get if you buy organic, the choice would be an obvious one. No one makes a conscious decision to eat most the things they do, it's just what's available and what's cheap. It's the same story with processed foods. People simply don't know what real food is or how to prepare it, especially in the inner city. What's hugely alarming is that as we - being in the West, I guess in Europe, the US and Canada and places - become more aware of the huge mistake of industrial farming, the very same model is being exported to the developing world to feed a growing middle class of Chinese and Indians who want as much meat as cheaply as is possible. All at the expense of growing grains on the very same land that could feed orders of magnitude more people and lead overall to less heart disease and obesity in the population.

Consider, as to your second point (or first) about the inherent cruelty in treating another sentient being as simply to be consumed, and I do not believe that this sentiment could have existed before massive urbanization which allowed individuals to be physically separated from livestock. This is a recent phenomenon. It has allowed people to project human intelligence onto animals and anthropomorphize them. Are animals intelligent: yes, more so than most people probably realize and we are always finding out more that we didn't know. Should we care: only if you have the luxury of not having to live around animals and depend on them as beasts of burden, really if our relationship to animals becomes perverted compared to what it has been like since we first domesticated animals as exactly "tools" in order to build civilization for 1000's of years. This is speaking in huge generalities. I also think it's true.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Mar 2012, 18:36
I agree with you on this point, Vik (and I'm not meaning to derail the thread but this stuff is cool to discuss :)):
Absolutely. :)

And I'll just add the following notes before the veggie-haterz arrive, lol. :D

Humans are essentially opportunistic eaters - in other words, we can make a choice (depending upon our circumstances, of course)
I am not against the eating of animals itself and wholeheartedly support the consumption of organic meat.
With regard to animal cruelty, I feel the same about animals we do not consume. My concern is not about meat consumption, it's about treating sentient creatures with respect and allowing them to live the life nature intended for them.


Should we care: only if you have the luxury of not having to live around animals and depend on them as beasts of burden....

I agree. It is a situation in which there is little or no choice.

TrickyVein
12th Mar 2012, 20:47
This is an interesting case. I agree that universally, every person should recognize the intelligence and will to live in every other living thing. And not just those animals that it's easy to relate to because they look like us physically or because of some other superficiality. I can act on my beliefs in this society but I have to recognize that it (my society) is supported only through an economy of agriculture which depends on, more or less, dominating and objectifying and butchering other living things (which may not be respecting them). This absolutely does not mean, however - and this can apply universally - that even though you may raise an animal for the sole purpose of killing it and eating it, that you cannot also provide a happy life for that animal (which is a kind of respect). This is in fact what you see in rural areas which are still predominantly agricultural, is humans forming bonds with the animals they use and rear and recognizing their importance. Industrializing meat production is wrong on so many levels. It takes away our experience with animals.

http://images.wikia.com/oddworld/images/4/41/Rupture_Farms.jpg

Pinky_Powers
12th Mar 2012, 21:04
I want to see you define DX.

Multi-path, multi-solution RPG where you can avoid killing and embrace stealth if you want.

Zerim
12th Mar 2012, 21:15
As an ex-vegan, I'd love to talk about vegetarianism with you folks on a dedicated thread.

TrickyVein
12th Mar 2012, 22:32
I don't see a http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/custom/eidos_badge_mod.png next to your name, Zerim :)

Zerim
12th Mar 2012, 22:59
It's just that I actually like this thread. People are voicing what they feel is at the core of what makes Deus Ex special; I think that's valuable.

Also, when you have a bunch of intellectual folks like most people here, you can expect these sorts of talks to get seriously complex. Discussions on vegetarianism have a tendency to branch out and go deep all the way through the world of philosophy, and so it's usually a good idea to give those discussions their own place with lots of room.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Mar 2012, 23:39
If you would like to make a new thread for dedicated discussion regarding food production in the future, go right ahead. :thumb:

OMGITSJASON
13th Mar 2012, 05:36
Gold Lines.

Jerion
13th Mar 2012, 05:43
Multi-path, multi-solution RPG where you can avoid killing and embrace stealth if you want.

You're missing the point. It's all about cake. Yummy, cyberpunk cake.

Milk, Flour, Eggs, Sugar, Butter...all different ingredients which are useful on their own, but when brought together form something wonderful and superior to the sum of the individual parts.

I leave it up to you to assign the ingredients to their game analogues.

_____

If you folks want to start another vegetarianism thread, by all means go ahead, yeah. Could be interesting to watch.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Mar 2012, 17:30
You're missing the point. It's all about cake. Yummy, cyberpunk cake.

Milk, Flour, Eggs, Sugar, Butter...all different ingredients which are useful on their own, but when brought together form something wonderful and superior to the sum of the individual parts.


Dammit. I'm hungry for cake now! :p




# "You wanna make friends, try and make Deus Ex cupcakes." - Adam Jensen (not an actual quote) http://yfrog.com/h78thhpj via TweetDeck


http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j472/Twizted_Viewz/Deus%20Ex%20Human%20Revolution/DXHRcakes.jpg

JCpies
13th Mar 2012, 17:41
*drools* Golden cupcakes.

rhalibus
14th Mar 2012, 07:17
Getting back to the topic...:)

"We give you the what, you give us the how" :)

nomotog
14th Mar 2012, 15:58
Here is a follow up question. When do you know you are playing a DX game? And I want an example.

I knew HR was a DX game when I used my shotgun to move a heavy garbage can out of the way.

xaduha
26th Mar 2012, 17:10
Alright, I have one.

It was in Alice Garden Pods, a glimpse of something bigger, in a small, but packed environment.
I could believe in it, that there were people, living and having their own problems. For a second or two.

Detail, more detail! Come on, we visit this place it least twice. Why is there no development between visits? (Or was there something I missed?) Nobody to talk to, no hidden places... ah, no point

By the way, we need to compare games by the volume of text and audio.

ZakKa89
26th Mar 2012, 18:44
multi-solution multi-choise gameplay and story.
Ethical questions and morality
cyberpunk science fiction

kabukiman1973
10th Apr 2012, 15:42
Lateral thinking. If you want.

[FGS]Shadowrunner
10th Apr 2012, 18:59
Essential ingredients of a Deus Ex map.

It's night.
There is a back door.
There is a vent or tunnel.
Shooting your way in isn't going to be the most economical or rewarding method.
Some element of dysfunctional society at work.
Some element of dysfunctional technology or conflict with humans(e.g. Lemon/Lime)
There will be a shadow somewhere.

Tverdyj
10th Apr 2012, 19:36
freedom in small things....within a linear story.

The world is bigger than you. your choices have consequences.... but they don't change the world* ,their effect is limited, personal, and all the more profound.

progression--you start out struggling, but by the end you act with near machine-like efficiency.


*except for the endgame choice.

Kataki
13th Apr 2012, 07:56
Conspiracy, freedom, evolution and cyberpunk.

El_Bel
16th Apr 2012, 14:22
There's more, but first thing that comes to mind is


Faceless Lady Liberty.


More than anything DX is an American story; I love how fitting an icon the damaged statue is for the post 9/11 era, and how relevant DX is in that context.

But hey! Whatever has become of that burgertrip competition? (or was it hotdogs, I forget) http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg705/scaled.php?server=705&filename=29825730.gif&res=medium

Thats it! I tried to put words to my thoughts for years and now you did it for me. Wuv. :flowers:

Also for me Deus ex is this.


And it is told that he made his way through their streets at night, crawling through their many windows and crouching in their gardens, moving through the sewers beneath their cobbled roads and slipping over their railings.



Watched by their cats and the roosting pidgeons of their city, yet wary of their slumbering dogs, he went. They would not see him, nor wake as he drew near, but would only shudder, softly calling out the names of their gods in sleep.



Restless, they tossed as he passed under the window like an errant lover fleeing dawn.



And by morning light he was gone, away from that place, and moved on to another world.