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Bazielim
29th Feb 2012, 01:36
I'm going through some BO2 stuff for the wiki and I think I might be missing a source and I'm wondering if anyone can help me find it?

Basically, some time ago there was considerable discussion about whether BO2's timeline was 'altered' - a point eventually settled by Amy - but I'm sure prior to this, part of what had fuelled the debate was an interview from a BO2 developer (I think it was Steve Ross) that contained a bit saying BO2 'always happened' (or something similar). I've gone through loads of stuff but I can't find it anywhere. Does anyone else remember it/know how to find it? - Or is my mind playing tricks?;)

Paradoks
29th Feb 2012, 13:19
I've never heard of it, but I didn't have access to the Internet when BO2 was released. I just never stumbled upon it when I was reading all interviews and articles that I initially missed. I clearly remember however that SR2 was supposed to be "highly non-linear":p.

The_Hylden
29th Feb 2012, 13:20
I don't remember that, personally. And I took the time to look over all of the quotes and stuff you've probably scoured yourself. I don't see it. Even if there was such an interview, it's superseded by Amy Hennig's official response and the logic of SR2 through Defiance. Obviously the Hylden were never released into Nosgoth prior to the SR2 end paradox, so BO2's time period could never have happened in the same manner. Now, as I've argued before in debates, similar events might have transpired. Perhaps Kain, or whomever, still raises Vorador and Kain still has an army, and they still fight some humans, Kain is betrayed, etc... Stuff like that, as time would only have to make slight alterations to events, as it's stated by Kain to do. We'll never know just how much was similar and how much was not, obviously. But, yeah, the Hylden never had their incorruptible vessel in Janos back to life to power their gate and to enter Nosgoth still in their own bodies, as they now do post the SR2 paradox. Amy's confirmed it's a timeline shift that happens as a direct result of this paradox, so... That's about it.

Bazielim
29th Feb 2012, 13:52
Fair enough, I might have been imagining it then. I had assumed that Amy's word on the matter was final anyway, I was just writing some stuff on BO2 development and it popped into my head - it wasn't for use in any particular speculative theories, more for use as an illustration of the 'lack of forethought' of the BO2 team;).

Lord_Aevum
29th Feb 2012, 14:25
There was definitely a lot of debate about that in the past, but I don't know if there was a source to say one thing or the other. It was probably just speculation vs speculation. If you think about the period before Defiance's release, I can easily see an argument that Kain fought the Sarafan and the Hylden in all timelines and their "trap" was the only significant change introduced by SR2.

There are also certain lines and events in BO2 which seem to be attempts from its storywriter at explaining Kain's words and actions in Soul Reaver (the inclusion of the Sarafan Order to further explain Kain's "blasphemy" and his knowing speech about the Sarafan's "obsession with Nosgoth’s domination" in SR1's chronoplast encounter, constant talk in BO2 about ruling Nosgoth, "Cowards and traitors deserve no second thoughts, only their complete annihilation" to explain Raziel's execution, and more). Obviously they're all invalidated now since Kain didn't necessarily do any of those things in the timeline his SR1 incarnation experienced, so it is sensible to assume that BO2's team weren't thinking about timelines or paradoxes at all.

Also, there is the timeline in SR2 (http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/sr2/timelinebig.php), which includes the events of Blood Omen 2 but does not say anywhere that they are the product of a paradox (though it does illustrate the effects of the WTJ paradox). That must have made it really, really ambiguous for fans back then.

What I would like to know is, where exactly was the earliest confirmation that BO2 is on the fourth timeline? The only source I've ever found for this fact is a quick mention in Blincoln's Visit to Crystal Dynamics article (http://www.thelostworlds.net/AboutTLW/My_Visit_to_Crystal_Dynamics.html). Are there any others out there (besides Defiance's storyline and the games themselves)?

The_Hylden
29th Feb 2012, 18:53
This is what is stated about BO2 by Amy Hennig:


Q: How does Defiance relate to the events of Blood Omen 2?

A: The events of Defiance cause Blood Omen 2 to be possible. During the rift when the Pillars collapse, the Hylden Lord/Hash is able to escape his imprisonment and possess Janos. This means that not only does he have an indestructible vessel for himself, but once he gets another body in BO2, he has Janos prison to use to power The Device. Vorador's appearance in that game was going to be explained a little bit in the original Defiance design, but this part was trimmed down.

Janos is only alive now due to Raziel never entering the sword and Kain being alive from SR2. Only the events that are happening from the direct result of the SR2 paradoxes "cause Blood Omen 2 to be possible." If it always happened, BO2 should be possible regardless of these events.


Further from her:


Q: When the Hylden Lord possesses Janos at the end of Defiance, does he then use his body to activate the Hylden Gate at the Hylden City?
A: Yes. The Hylden Lord used the body of Janos in order to open the gate. Once the gate was opened, the Hylden could enter the Material Realm directly, and so Janos was placed in the Device.

Again, Janos has to be alive for any of this to occur. Raziel has to be around and not already in the sword, and Kain still alive for him to rip out Janos' heart, in order to raise Janos.

Further relevance from an interview from the rest of the team:


4. Could you explain how Raziel is both heroes, just so I'm sure(I think I get it, but just to make sure)

Raziel's prophesized arrival is interpreted differently by the Hylden and Vampires, because of their different points of view. In Amy's words, "As the Hylden champion, he destroys the Vampire messiah with his fiery sword (the Reaver) by sacrificing himself. And as the Vampire hero, he vanquishes the Hylden savior, by obliterating him(self) with the Reaver." As the Hylden champion, he is able to bring about their "release" (in a sense) by bringing Janos back to life. As the Vampire Messiah, he purifies the Scion of Balance insuring that the pillars are once more in the possession of the Vampires. His ability to fulfill both prophesizes is because he alone possess free will and was able to make those choices.

I believe the Amy Hennig quotes are found here in the archived thread for the interviews/answers. However, you'll have to go to the Library section (http://nosgoth.yuku.com/topic/4317/GLoK-Interviews-with-Amy-Hennig#.T050XXJSQRK) of the Nosgothic Realm for the Defiance team interviews (at least, I didn't see them in the archives. I should help get some of those over into it... I'll speak with Umah about it).

Bazielim
29th Feb 2012, 21:10
There are also certain lines and events in BO2 which seem to be attempts from its storywriter at explaining Kain's words and actions in Soul Reaver (the inclusion of the Sarafan Order to further explain Kain's "blasphemy" and his knowing speech about the Sarafan's "obsession with Nosgoth’s domination" in SR1's chronoplast encounter, constant talk in BO2 about ruling Nosgoth, "Cowards and traitors deserve no second thoughts, only their complete annihilation" to explain Raziel's execution, and more). Obviously they're all invalidated now since Kain didn't necessarily do any of those things in the timeline his SR1 incarnation experienced, so it is sensible to assume that BO2's team weren't thinking about timelines or paradoxes at all.

Yeah, that's essentially what I'm getting at: there are a lot of stuff that's obviously meant to relate to SR1, but strictly speaking it can't because of the timeline issues (the relation between Glyph magic and Glyphs being another one that sticks out). I would tend to agree that BO2 team probably hadn't considered the implications of timelines or paradoxes. From the BO2 Designer Diary, I get the idea that they were pretty much given a free license; just a few bits of 'crossover' were planned between SR2 and BO2; and they perhaps weren't explained the full complexities of what Amy was pulling off in SR2.

The_Hylden
1st Mar 2012, 00:35
Yeah. There's that interview you posted in that Library thread I linked to with IGN asking the team who the Sarafan are. The oblivious nature of the reply says just how out of the loop this second team was, really:


IGN: So, who are the Sarafan Knights, and more specifically, who is the Sarafan Lord?

Sam: The Sarafan is an army of warrior priests devoted to purging Nosgoth of all vampires. These humans, once led by Malek, believe that they have righteousness on their side, and will not rest until every last vampire has been eradicated.

These humans, once led by Malek?? No, but yeah, sure, the Sarafan once were ... only about 900 years earlier in the timeline :p They had no clue of the full history of events in Nosgoth.

They start off that interview stating that they knew from the start that they wanted to basically ditch that same ol', same ol' medieval architecture and just drop in their own industrial revolution. Well, there is only probably the entirety of the actual fanbase that would have loved to have seen more of that antiquated medieval architecture, just now in 3D. Yeah, you can read a lot into these answers.