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Linikratyo
28th Feb 2012, 23:09
I was wondering what the Nemesis would be like at the age of +/-70 at the time of the Battle of the Last Stand. As William the Just he seemed to be very insecure and suspicious. How would he have changed over the years?

The_Hylden
1st Mar 2012, 01:05
I think he seems unsure as to what Moebius is doing giving him this sword and telling him of this strange tale of a vampire wanting him dead, and he's a new king at the age of a "boy" (even though Tony Jay's deep pipes are voicing him, heh), so his age might make him a bit unsure here also. However, on the timeline that he survived and with that prize of a sword, by the time of the Last Stand, he's probably pretty secure and pretty sure of himself. In fact, he's most likely thinking himself unstoppable. However, you never know. Maybe he's truly haunted by fits of paranoia that all are out to get him from this point and that's why he's basically wiping out all of the competition in Nosgoth. The extremes he could be are either he's conquering because he feels invincible and it's his destiny, that type of thing, or he's doing it because he's driven to paranoia and insane levels of insecurity. It's probably something in the middle, if anything. A ruthless, secure dictator that underneath still fears treachery in the dark... He sure wasn't seen as a just ruler from his boy king days on, so cruelty and ruthlessness are abundant, whatever the reason.

FearGhoul
2nd Mar 2012, 03:28
He was framed man. It was just a smear campain.

Lord_Aevum
2nd Mar 2012, 18:39
The whole story of William the Just as the Nemesis really is a bit murky, and it is difficult to imagine what may have gone on in his head, aside from the mention that he became "a sadistic despot and tyrant". Knowing how things operate in Nosgoth, though, I'm sure there would have been some kind of mildly understandable reason as to why he decided that the entire world deserved cataclysmic destruction and death for no good reason.

The BO1 FAQ states directly that William conspired with Moebius for forty years, and considering that in the other timeline Moebius was able to arrange for his corpse to be taken all the way down south to the Sarafan Stronghold, it's probable that the people of that kingdom greatly respected the Circle of Nine (or Moebius himself, at least). Even Kain was briefly fooled by the Oracle, so if you consider that William is probably convinced Moebius is a truly benevolent figure who knows what he is talking about, it makes some sense. Maybe Moebius planted in him a certain fear that the wide-scale destruction of humanity is somehow the lesser of two evils, or somehow necessary for the world to go on. Considering that, and considering the new context of SR2, it's possible that the Legions of the Nemesis existed entirely to feed the Elder God with more souls (whether they knew it or not, most likely not). Of course, it would've been preferable for Moebius if those were vampire souls, hence his successful attempt at creating a paradox to spawn more vampire hunters instead.

Somebody had a great theory that since history only allows slight alterations, it's possible that the Sarafan Order from BO2 is basically a sort of substitute for the Legions of the Nemesis in the earlier timeline, and that in that first timeline he might have had to take the Nemesis down instead of the Sarafan Lord/Hylden. This makes sense to me, because the fact that the Soul Reaver exists at all means that the Legions must have been destroyed or disbanded eventually - Raziel's rebirth and everything to do with Kain's empire had to happen for the Reaver to be produced.

The_Hylden
4th Mar 2012, 04:44
Moebius in your ear for forty(40!!) years would certainly do it :p lol

Yes, I'd expect the entirety of Nosgoth would respect the Guardians of the Pillars, despite whatever differences each kingdom had against its rival. And Moebius has another chip in his favor in that he was correct in what he tells William. A vampire assassin, Kain, indeed infiltrated his kingdom to murder him and, on the timeline that William survives, the sword he was given did effectively protect his life, so ... given all of that, Moebius should be seen as a godsend to our poor William. In effect, he would be the Merlin to William as King Arthur, if you want to use that analogy.

The Legions of the Nemesis were replaced by Moebius' vampire hunters post paradox, however, their rule and their offspring in the next centuries would certainly fill the bill as the natural replacement for the BO2 revised Sarafan order, sure. These Sarafan, after all, would probably also be offspring of the very vampire hunters in the replaced timeline, so it stands to reason that the Legion's next generation would have had a similar claim on the world before the WtJ paradox.

Lord_Aevum
4th Mar 2012, 21:13
Yeah, I think that's a perfect analogy, great one. It's a really warped twist on the Arthurian legend.

Linikratyo
6th Mar 2012, 18:43
Alright guys that was really informative :D Thanks ;)

The_Hylden
7th Mar 2012, 04:06
No problem, Linikratyo :)


Yeah, I think that's a perfect analogy, great one. It's a really warped twist on the Arthurian legend.

Indeed. SK specifically took warped looks at fairy tales and other legendary stories. I am no longer entirely sure, but I think they said in some interview that was found that this take was what they were going on for William the Just. In any case, it's a great added way to think on these events :)

FearGhoul
7th Mar 2012, 04:29
If it's not too much trouble, could you mention all of the fairy tales Blood Omen references? I can see how Elzevir would fit that for example, but I can't figure out what fairy tale that would be.

diuqSehT
7th Mar 2012, 18:28
Magical Sleep, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, the young Ms. Ottmar.
Creation myths, Garden of Eden, the darker secondary Creation performed up north by guardians who'd lost their way.
Hanzel & Gretel, Elzevir, (though there's got to be many fairytales involving dolls coming to life).
The Pied Piper, that blue-ish summoner enemy who called the dead to rally around him (he had ears like an Alice-in-Wonderland character gone awry.)
Christianity, blood of Christ miracles, blood magic, vampiric resurrection. (Vampires are already a darker twist on an existing mythos that didn't require much tinkering by SK). + the later Raziel dark messiah motif.

Other stuff.

Lord_Aevum
7th Mar 2012, 19:00
It is pretty weird, because some of BO1's marketing amusingly tried to highlight the game's superficial evil vampire premise by saying "forget saving the princess (http://www.thelostworlds.net/Library/Images/Marketing_Material-Ad-Blood_Omen.JPG)", but saving the princess is exactly what Kain does. Maybe the PR guys didn't play it through to the end.

The_Hylden
8th Mar 2012, 18:29
Yes, there are combos. Usually, there isn't one direct one. I was trying to scour the SK faq, which I thought this was mentioned in. I could have sworn it was in there, but maybe they went into further detail in some interview that I no longer remember where it was unearthed.

Trying to list specific other tales, fairy tale or otherwise, is a bit hard. I don't know if an actual list exists. The ones mentioned with Sleeping Beauty and Snow White, sure. For Elzivar, specifically, though, I think Rumpelstiltskin comes more to mind than Hansel and Gretel. He didn't spin straw into gold, but he did ask for just one small thing from Ottmar and stole the life/soul of his first borne (probably only) child in his daughter, something Rumpelstiltskin (the little imp) asks for in return for gold he spins for a girl locked up by a king. Ottmar and his kingdom seems the most influenced by fairy tales, specifically. I'm not really sure what the other towns and Guardians gained from this, but maybe there's some correlation you can draw to some old guy locked up far above a city that is suffering from his rule (Nupraptor), and so on... Those sections, though, almost remind one of Greek Tragedies, like Macbeth, or something like that. Anyway, I digress...

In the faq, however, it is stated other direct influences for the story, which were that Kain's anti-hero role came about as Nosgoth's version of William Money (Clint Eastwood) in Unforgiven (that Dennis Dyak wanted a protagonist that you can't say is good, or evil), and the story was heavily influenced by books, Necroscope, and The Wheel of Time novels. Nosgoth's world is a mix of high fantasy and vampire mythology. You can read over the faq for yourselves, archived, thankfully, by Ardreth on the Dark-chronicle:

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/resources/bo1_faq/faqtoc.htm

I did search before replying here, but that's about all I have right now.

diuqSehT
9th Mar 2012, 23:02
bedtime stories at chez squid never involved Mr. Rumple, so I'm sort of discovering him only now on ABC's fairytale show. What's funny is the actor is typecast and basically playing the same character he was on Stargate Universe, with the main change being more halloween bronzer on his cheeks for some scenes. It's been interesting to see him and the evil queen struggle for dominance in our world: they're both sort of out of their element and off-balance, but both were able to carry over enough of their power onto Earth so that neither is entirely at the other's mercy. The good guys on the show only exist as clueless fodder for the ongoing contest between these two real powers in the town. By getting into a situation, the heroes merely deal out each new hand in this poker game, providing Rumple & Queeny with something to wager & spar over.

Rumplestiltskin is the one who resembles Kain--his powers are a curse he got tricked into accepting as would only befall a desperate soul. He's amoral, simply a force to be reckoned with, whereas the queen is more decidedly dark in her heart. But 'Stiltzkin also still has that hole in his soul which prevents him from exerting a truly positive influence on the world--heroic or redeeming qualities are largely absent from his gutted psyche so he has difficulty manifesting them. Yet he's the one who has the potential to fix the mess everyone's in. So he's the main hope, and the viewer is forced to hope in turn that he finds his inner hero, or at least that his 'inner trickster' can be tricked into playing a beneficial role. So, while he's the more favorable of the two Powers, he's not to be trusted either. (Similar to how the people of Nosgoth can't really trust in Kain even though he's the supposed balance-bringer. Because who can say what dark motivations may still reside in Kain's soul to guide him in the use of all these scion powers? Yet the Nosgothians have to rely on Kain, because he's the swing factor who holds their fates in his hands. Dicey.)

The_Hylden
10th Mar 2012, 00:15
:confused: Dear Lord, what kind of bastardization of Rumplestilskin is this? lol I'm all for new takes on things, but man, this hardly resembles anything to do with the actual fairy tale...


Ok, this is the story of Rumplestilskin:



In order to make himself appear more important, a miller lied to a king, telling him that his daughter could spin straw into gold. The king called for the girl, shut her in a tower room with straw and a spinning wheel, and demanded that she spin the straw into gold by morning, for three nights, or be executed (other versions have the king threatening to lock her up in a dungeon forever). She had given up all hope, when an impish creature appeared in the room and spun straw into gold for her in return for her necklace, then again the following night for her ring. On the third night, when she had nothing with which to reward him, the strange creature spun straw into gold for a promise that the girl's first-born child would become his.
The king was so impressed that he married the miller's daughter, but when their first child was born, the imp returned to claim his payment: "Now give me what you promised". The queen was frightened and offered him all the wealth she had if she could keep the child. The imp refused but finally agreed to give up his claim to the child if the queen could guess his name in three days. At first she failed, but before the final night, her messenger discovered the imp's remote mountain cottage and, unseen, overheard the imp hopping about his fire and singing. While there are many variations in this song, the 1886 translation by Lucy Crane reads:
Today do I bake, to-morrow I brew,
The day after that the queen's child comes in;
And oh! I am glad that nobody knew
That the name I am called is Rumpelstiltskin!"[1]
However, most American children today know it as:
Today I brew, tomorrow I bake;
And then the Prince child I will take;
For no one knows my little game
That Rumpelstiltskin is my name!
...
When the imp came to the queen on the third day and she revealed his name, Rumpelstiltskin lost his bargain. In the 1812 edition of the Brothers Grimm tales, Rumpelstiltskin then "ran away angrily, and never came back". The ending was revised in a final 1857 edition to a more gruesome version where Rumpelstiltskin "in his rage drove his right foot so far into the ground that it sank in up to his waist; then in a passion he seized the left foot with both hands and tore himself in two." Other versions have Rumpelstiltskin driving his right foot so far into the ground that he creates a chasm and falls into it, never to be seen again. In the oral version originally collected by the brothers Grimm, Rumpelstiltskin flies out of the window on a cooking ladle (Heidi Anne Heiner).

Quoted from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumplestilskin)


As you can see, the imp, Rumplestilskin, is the only evil antagonist that's ever supposed to be in this story and he's only after the woman's unborn daughter, to have as his own (for whatever nefarious reasons). He'll perform what the woman wants with his powers, but will take her daughter, just like Elzivar gave the best doll to the King for the competition, all he wanted was his daughter's soul (claiming only a lock of her hair to get it), which he imprisons within a doll back at his house ... and God only knows what he does to that doll...

Anyway, lol, that's the version I meant and the only one I expected anyone else to really know. Yay for the modern era, I guess :/ (or ABC's lack of ratings gambles...)

FearGhoul
10th Mar 2012, 02:46
I remember a version where Rumplestilzkin is tricked into saying his name backwards and that's his weakness.

diuqSehT
10th Mar 2012, 22:44
They've done the part about him spinning gold, and demanding someone's firstborn baby too, and tricking people who don't fully understand their contract with him. Only it was Snow White's baby this time around (to fit it in with the show's plot), and heck yeah sorcerers are always trying to collect a lock of your hair on ABC too. (The hairdressers in magic-ville should probably charge a little extra for the service of burning all the clippings right in front of the customer as part of the haircut, just to make sure no nefarious witch ends up in possession of your DNA.) The reason Rumplestiltskin has competition on TV that he never had in his stories before is that all the fairytale creatures got mish-mashed together in one town by the evil queen's magic.

essex1990
12th Mar 2012, 04:18
It is pretty weird, because some of BO1's marketing amusingly tried to highlight the game's superficial evil vampire premise by saying "forget saving the princess (http://www.thelostworlds.net/Library/Images/Marketing_Material-Ad-Blood_Omen.JPG)", but saving the princess is exactly what Kain does. Maybe the PR guys didn't play it through to the end.

Actually, in the new timeline Kain doesn't need to fight the legions of the nemesis therefore does not go to see King Ottmar and does not find out about the princess or rescue her. Therefore we did forget saving the princess.

diuqSehT
13th Mar 2012, 01:12
:)



But I bet the dollmaker didn't forget about the princess. If the new timeline didn't give him the same opportunity to get access to her, ever wonder what his strange lusts led him to do in the new timeline? It's a love story for the ages with those two.

essex1990
13th Mar 2012, 01:41
:)



But I bet the dollmaker didn't forget about the princess. If the new timeline didn't give him the same opportunity to get access to her, ever wonder what his strange lusts led him to do in the new timeline? It's a love story for the ages with those two.

who said he didn't get access to her, so my presumption is that shes still stuck in the doll.

FearGhoul
13th Mar 2012, 03:13
Yeah, this is one thing that's lost in the story. I assume that Kain still goes after Elzevir and gets Ottmar's army. I remember someone saying that maybe Kain gets them to help fight the Vampire Hunters instead. This whole Ottmar thing is free to a lot of speculation in the new timelines really.

diuqSehT
13th Mar 2012, 23:41
Hey I think you're right Essex. In this new timeline, Elvevir would have gotten to finish whatever scheme he was working on without Kain inturrpting things and killing the dollmaker. In time, I imagine the king got so desperate that when Elzevir came back and demanded the moon in return for bringing the girl back to life, the king would have given in to whatever the demands were. Or he was just a sicko and never gave the girl life again.


re: "forget about saving the princess"----
Kain never forgot about saving her. He remembers. It's the princess and the rest of the world that have forgotten, because it never happened in the new set of events. Still, though, that's good enough reason to caution game players not to bother with the princess. Too much hassle, and it only led to regret!


(As usual, this could easily be wrong too.)

The_Hylden
14th Mar 2012, 20:10
Yeah, this is one thing that's lost in the story. I assume that Kain still goes after Elzevir and gets Ottmar's army. I remember someone saying that maybe Kain gets them to help fight the Vampire Hunters instead. This whole Ottmar thing is free to a lot of speculation in the new timelines really.

I've said before about Kain probably still needing to visit Ottmar to rally his forces for one reason, or another, so he'd still have to face Elzivar and release Ottmar's daughter from the spell. As with all of these questions regarding changes to the timestream, the thing always to be remembered is that time omits on the slightest alterations. Perhaps with Moebius being the replacement for the Nemesis and his army of vampire hunters the replacement for the Legions, Ottmar would have originally been taxed and levied against to bend to the vampire armies, and Kain would have had to rally Ottmar to fend off Moebius and that branch of the army. Whatever the reason, it should still play out mostly the same, unless there is a real reason close to the paradox for those events to change to the point where the opposite happens. I don't think that there is. Although, I still can see the other side with Essex and Squid's points and the irony that Elzivar would get to win his little insane dream on the new timeline... My inner core hopes that isn't the case, though :p



re: "forget about saving the princess"----
Kain never forgot about saving her. He remembers. It's the princess and the rest of the world that have forgotten, because it never happened in the new set of events. Still, though, that's good enough reason to caution game players not to bother with the princess. Too much hassle, and it only led to regret!


(As usual, this could easily be wrong too.)

No, you'd be right, if this change actually would have occurred to the timeline. Kain would be the only one still retaining the memory of it (and Moebius out there would have knowledge of the potential of that different path, of course). Kain remembers everything from his separate lives in both timelines.

Graz'zt
16th Mar 2012, 21:39
I like that show. Too bad his girlfriend is in the insane asylim. Also, too bad I'm not dating Red Riding Hood. :)