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Timmei
21st Aug 2012, 23:29
I have recently been doing some extensive research on the original ideas for FFVII lately and have happened across something that I neevr really thought about. Of course, everyone knows that Aerith meets her demise at the end of disc 1. (If you didn't know that... I'm sorry. Most people know by this point.) And everyone hates Sephiroth for her death. I understand that, but... was it REALLY him?

Don't yell at me saying "Of COURSE it wuz! R U STOOPID?!?!" No, I know what I'm talking about, just let me explain! ;)

See, if anyone remembers, Sephiroth falls into the lifestream at the time of the Nibelheim incident inside the reactor. He doesn't die of course, but learns pretty much everything he ever wanted to get his revenge on the planet, along with the help of his Mother, Jenova, the calamity from the sky.

Fast forward to the events in FF VII, where Cloud, Barret, and Tifa infiltrate Shinra HQ to rescue Aerith. On the 67th floor, Jenova is encountered for the first time, with her head missing. (Sephiroth had it when he fell.) The group walks away from "it" without much more thought.

Later, the group is jailed, but get to escape because someone opened Cloud and Tifa's cell. The group quickly comes to find out Jenova is gone. And on the top floor is Sephiroth's Masamune in the president's back. So... he was there, or so the group thinks.

Well, yeah, he's alive, but it was the shape-shifting Jenova that killed him, under the direction of Sephiroth.

So, throughout all of disc 1, the group is actually following Jenova across Gaia. (No name is given, but it's FF, so I'll use it.) By the end of disc 1, this has not changed. It is NOT Sephiroth who kills Aerith, but Jenova, under control of Sephiroth. There's no way he got out of the Northern Crater anytime in disc 1 to do anything, then suddenly put himself back in there again in disc 2, frozen and unmoving. So, yeah, Jenova is the murderer of Aerith, not Sephirtoh, though of course it was his idea.

I had never put two and two together for this one, but it makes sense!


Grimoire
22nd Aug 2012, 02:14
Yes, that is correct.


Sephiroth's real body is completely dissolved when he falls into the Lifestream during the Nibelheim Incident, but his consciousness remains and he begins reconstructing his body in the Northern Crater (this is the "true" Sephiroth inside the crystal that Cloud hands the Black Materia to). The Sephiroth Cloud and the others pursue following the incident in the Shinra Building is Sephiroth controlling Jenova's main body and having it mimic his appearance, but since Jenova is a mindless puppet, it's still Sephiroth.

member_10078668
22nd Aug 2012, 04:48
I thought it was pretty obvious that the Sephiroth that you chased around in the game wasn't the original Sephiroth. I mean, it did drop all those JENOVA bits (boss fights) when you got close to it.

member_10074094
22nd Aug 2012, 17:35
Isn't Sephiroth also controlling all the numbered experiments? with the exception of Nanaki (I've always assumed this was because either he wasn't human, or hadn't been part of the experiments for a long enough period of time). And Cloud was a failed expirment, yet he was also the most capable... not really sure why, but I was always under the impression that the "clones" had Jenova inside them, allowing Sephiroth to manipulate them, and Nanaki hadn't gotten that far in Hojo's expiriments.

Timmei
22nd Aug 2012, 17:53
Isn't Sephiroth also controlling all the numbered experiments? with the exception of Nanaki (I've always assumed this was because either he wasn't human, or hadn't been part of the experiments for a long enough period of time). And Cloud was a failed expirment, yet he was also the most capable... not really sure why, but I was always under the impression that the "clones" had Jenova inside them, allowing Sephiroth to manipulate them, and Nanaki hadn't gotten that far in Hojo's expiriments.






Seeing as how Sephiroth can control Jenova so easily, that would explain a little more about the numbered experiments. Cloud and Zack both ended up with Jenova cells, or S cells I think they are called in CC, and it wouldn't surprise me if Hojo did the same thing with the numbers. And I'm sure that Nanaki would have been injected failry soon if he hadn't been rescued. (How awkward would it have been for he and Aerith to mate like Hojo wanted? O.o ) If he had been injected with Jenova cells, he probably would have fallen to the same fate as all of the other puppets, because I doubt he would have had the strength to fight it like Cloud did.

member_10074094
22nd Aug 2012, 18:00
Sephiroth never attempted to control Zack, presumably because he was either A) still "dying" or transfering into the lifestream or whatever happened, or B) because, as indicated in CC (but not FF7), Cloud had pure Jenova Cells or something like that, and Zack did not.





I always liked how the parts of Jenova could transform into monsters larger than Jenova herself was. always wondered what the head would be, but Rufus just had to shoot it.

Timmei
22nd Aug 2012, 18:22
It could have been the fact that Zack was already infused with mako energy, and the Jenova cells couldn't completey take over him, but I don't really know. Cloud was never in SOLDIER, so I doubt he was infused with mako to start with, even though he had mako poisoning when escaping with Zack and that's why he was incapable of moving. They must have put mako in him along with the Jenova cells during the tests, because he had the eyes of SOLDIER later, so maybe combining them together had a better result than waiting so long as with Zack. Or maybe Cloud wasn't poisoned by mako but the Jenova cells. Sephiroth may have just not much control yet either, but who knows.





Jenova certainly is an... interesting creature to say the least. Being able to transform into whatever it wants, and having so much control when it originally landed on the planet,. I wish I knew more about her, including the possiblities the head may have had.

member_10074094
22nd Aug 2012, 20:36
I am curious as to how mako and jenova can coexist in Zack, Sephiroth, and Cloud. The lifestream views Jenova as a cancer, and it can therefore be assumed that Jenova's cells would work to deteriorate it. Obviously their usage of both powers is what makes them stronger than even average soldier members, but still, I find it odd that the two forces don't battle inside their bodies and kill their hosts.

Timmei
22nd Aug 2012, 22:30
I am curious as to how mako and jenova can coexist in Zack, Sephiroth, and Cloud. The lifestream views Jenova as a cancer, and it can therefore be assumed that Jenova's cells would work to deteriorate it. Obviously their usage of both powers is what makes them stronger than even average soldier members, but still, I find it odd that the two forces don't battle inside their bodies and kill their hosts.






That... is something I have never thought about before. Mako comes from the planet, and the cells come from Jenova. Why ARE they alive? I would imagine an all-out war would be going on inside their bodies. I'm tempted to write SE and ask them myself now! xD

TheSquig-297101
22nd Aug 2012, 22:46
i think that issue was raised in advent children but im not sure. havent watched the film since it was released but it did read something about it a while back.

Timmei
22nd Aug 2012, 22:58
i think that issue was raised in advent children but im not sure. havent watched the film since it was released but it did read something about it a while back.






It's going to bother me until I figure it out. If you can remember, please tell me where you found it! Or better yet, just tell me on here! :D

TheSquig-297101
23rd Aug 2012, 00:37
It's going to bother me until I figure it out. If you can remember, please tell me where you found it! Or better yet, just tell me on here! :D






""*Q: What is geostigma? *A: "Geostigma" is the name given to the side effects of an internal struggle between JENOVA's cells and one's own spirit energy, gifted to them at conception by the Lifestream. These side effects result from the spirit energy causing one's immune system to overtax the body as it tries to expel JENOVA's cells from within. The effects of geostigma include extreme fatigue, dark sores on the surface of the skin, and the excretion of dark pus. It is actually these negative side effects, rather than the presence of JENOVA cells, which lead to death. *Source: FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (pg. 32; pg. 34 in the Revised Edition)"


www.gamefaqs.com/psp/920785-final-fantas... (http://www.gamefaqs.com/psp/920785-final-fantasy-vii-advent-children/faqs/39217)

Timmei
23rd Aug 2012, 00:50
i think that issue was raised in advent children but im not sure. havent watched the film since it was released but it did read something about it a while back.






It's going to bother me until I figure it out. If you can remember, please tell me where you found it! Or better yet, just tell me on here! :D








""*Q: What is geostigma? *A: "Geostigma" is the name given to the side effects of an internal struggle between JENOVA's cells and one's own spirit energy, gifted to them at conception by the Lifestream. These side effects result from the spirit energy causing one's immune system to overtax the body as it tries to expel JENOVA's cells from within. The effects of geostigma include extreme fatigue, dark sores on the surface of the skin, and the excretion of dark pus. It is actually these negative side effects, rather than the presence of JENOVA cells, which lead to death. *Source: FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (pg. 32; pg. 34 in the Revised Edition)"





www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197341-final-fantasy... (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197341-final-fantasy-vii/faqs/2385)






In essence, all people have a little mako energy in their bodies. That makes sense. Though I'm still curious about people with extreme levels of mako energy, then combined with Jenova's cells, or as mentioned earlier, Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth.


I must admit, I did not know the complete reason for Geostigma, but now I do! Thanks so much!

TheSquig-297101
23rd Aug 2012, 01:01
yah, the story is complex and some things are quite difficult to wrap your head around. Btw, i accidently linked the wrong source in the quoted post.


ive edited my post with the correct one. It contains a lot of other intersting thoughts on the plot.

btk6
23rd Aug 2012, 01:17
ummm GaiaGuardian, WTF!!!! are you saying. i read that and dont know how any body can even think that.

Grimoire
23rd Aug 2012, 04:25
...now that I've seen this, I will have to post the following:


1. Nanaki is not, and was never meant to be, a Sephiroth clone. He is number XIII in another series of experiments (originally there was meant to be a pack of differently coloured Nanaki clones attacking the party).


2. Sephiroth clones have been implanted with S Cells, just like G and A copies have been implanted with G and A cells respectively.


3. SOLDIER candidates go through an extensive screening process to ensure that the ones picked for duty have the physical and mental strength to resist the influence of Jenova. That is why Sephiroth cannot simply take control of every SOLDIER and turn them against Shinra. They still feel the call of the Reunion, like the retired SOLDIER who runs a store in Junon. Unlike SOLDIER, Hojo meant for the Sephiroth clones to break down and succumb to JENOVA in order to prove his Reunion theory.


4. Geostigma is very much a spiritual disease. The trigger is despair, which allows Sephiroth to invade people through the Lifestream and implant them with his/Jenova's cells and initiate the vicious cycle of pain and despair that weakens the victim and eventually causes their death. That is why so many were afflicted and died during Meteorfall. This is elaborated on in the complete On the Way to a Smile short story collection.


5. Jenova cells are not dissolved in the Lifestream, which is why Sephiroth is able to use them even after his own body was dissolved.


6. Regarding Mako: Mako is just another name for Lifestream energy, the basis of life. Overexposure to Mako causes Mako poisoning, but Hojo and the other Shinra scientists have experimented with controlled exposure to Mako to do everything from enhancing human strength (as in the case of SOLDIER) to turning them into monsters (as with the Makonoids). The details of the SOLDIER experiments have never been fully explained and neither has the relation between the treated Jenova cells SOLDIER members are implanted with and their Mako baths. A visible effect of the treatments SOLDIER members undergo is that their eyes turn the same hue of blue and gain the trademark SOLDIER "glow" (Sephiroth had green eyes in the original FFVII but this was changed for the later Compilation titles).

member_10525333
23rd Aug 2012, 20:30
So Cloud has the S cells and Sephiroth has pure Jenova cells? Cloud wasnt in SOLDIER but was just part of Hojo's reunion experiments i.e. Sephiroth clones? But Cloud had the strength to not be fully controlled by Sephiroth, which they werent counting on. Is that right?


- I thought I remembered the story fairly well until replaying it now; the first time in 4 or 5 years probably. I always wondered why whenever you would run into Sephiroth you end up fighting Jenova. Now its starting to come together! Epic game.

Grimoire
24th Aug 2012, 08:00
S Cells are Jenova cells that have undergone a process invented by Hojo to make them suitable for various experiments such as the SOLDIER project and the Sephiroth Clones. Sephiroth himself was injected with Jenova cells (presumably S Cells, since Sephiroth is the prototype for the S-Type SOLDIER experiment) at the fetal stage.


TheLifestream.net has a translation of the S Cell entry from the Crisis Core Complete Guide Keyword Collection (last entry on the page): thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/284/... (http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/284/crisis-core-complete-guide-keyword-collection/2/)


And Cloud...Cloud is special.

Plazma_Storm
24th Aug 2012, 13:39
I am curious as to how mako and jenova can coexist in Zack, Sephiroth, and Cloud. The lifestream views Jenova as a cancer, and it can therefore be assumed that Jenova's cells would work to deteriorate it. Obviously their usage of both powers is what makes them stronger than even average soldier members, but still, I find it odd that the two forces don't battle inside their bodies and kill their hosts.






They (Mako and Jenova Cells) do, as evidenced by GEOSTIGMA in FFVII; Advent Children, everyone who had the procedure done, whether in SOLDIER, or just experimented on got Geostigma, in AC: Complete we even see how it ends up killing people, causing them to die, vomiting a black icor and convulsing wildly. how densel and some of the children got it is up for debate (as far as I know) but it seems to me that some of those children would have been parented by former SOLDIER members, thus gaining residual cells. Mako infusions strengthen a person by increasing the power of the current flowing through their body, which Vincent is wise enough to recognise as a being similar to, or an actual small part of the life stream, thus Mako energy would increase its power. Jenova Cells were added to some before they were given Mako, those people, seemingly, turned into monsters. As for Cloud, he was infused with mako, as part of Hojo's experiment on him (I believe) and was also suspended in a mako tank (similiar to the way the people in the Nibelhiem reactor were) for a period of time afterward in the hopes that he would become the perfect Sephiroth clone. However Zack's intervention prevented this, though he couldn't save Cloud from Mako Poisoning, as a result of excessive contact. Jenova Cells are unique in that (much like real world stem cells) they can become whatever they wish or need to, this has obvious advantages, but also as we have seen, some major drawbacks. Also there were two more who had the same situation. Angeal and Genesis. However the methods used to strengthen them caused their bodies to degrade, eventually turning the two into monstrocities. Sephiroth was immune to this because he was given both Mako and Jenova Cells while he was still forming in the womb of his mother.


RANT BEGINS HERE, READ ONLY IF YOU HAVE ANY INTEREST IN LEARNING A BIT MORE ABOUT FFVII's WORLD, AND MY TAKE ON HOW THESE FACTS ALLUDE TO THE REASONS THINGS HAPPENED THE WAY THEY DID, ALSO, MY EPLAINATIONS STILL LEAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS HANGING, ASK AWAY AND I WILL DO MY BEST TO PROVIDE YOU WITH AN ACCEPTABLE ANSWER. ALSO, IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOME OF MY INFORMATION IS INCORRECT, IF YOU NOTICE ANYTHING INCORRECT ABOUT THE EVIDENCE I PRESENT HERE, PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!


Speaking of Sephiroth, anyone else notice that he cracked like an egg over lies? Genesis was the one who told him how he and Angeal were created, but he was wrong about how Sephiroth was created, making him out to have been created like they were, a monster. However in reality, he is the most human of the 3, he was parented by Hojo and Lucreica, and given his mako and S(JENOVA) cells before birth, where Angeal and Genesis were experimented on after birth. As such, he developed as a normal human did, albiet with a lot more strength and other physical traits, his height may have even been increased by this, however he suffered none of the garish transformations that Genesis and Angeal did. The one thing he did get, which all three of them had at one point or another, was the one wing. But he suffered no degredation other than that. He was "Perfect". However he was told that his mother was JENOVA, and didn't know his father at all, he was even under the impression that professor Gast was the one who created him, another lie, he was Hojo's experimental product. and He questions for a long time why Gast didn't tell him anything. He also reads that Jenova is an ancient later on in the ShinRa Mansion, another falsehood which leads to him wanting to "take the planet back for the Cetra" and "Reclaim the Promised Land", a race he has no relation to. Ultimately he snaps thinking that people destroyed the Cetra and stole the planet from JENOVA, one of the last Ancients, when in reality, it was JENOVA who destroyed the Cetra. I don't know that Sephiroth actually controls JENOVA completely, after examining this evidence, could it be that JENOVA is the one manipulating him? Taking advantage of his weakness of mind, and his growing mental instability to wrench control from him? after all, JENOVA can control her cells, no matter where they are, which explains the Clones, but doesn't explain Cloud entirely.


Cloud's mind was completely normal before the incident at Nibelheim, afterwards, he and Zack were both found by Hojo, both near death (Zack because he was slashed by Sephiroth and thrown out of the room, and Cloud becaise he was run through with Sephiroth's sword.)The experiments saved their lives, but changed them. Hojo tried to turn Zack into a Sephiroth Clone, and tried to do the same to Cloud, however in Cloud's case he didn't get to finish his work, because Cloud was broken out of his Mako Tank( not where he was infused with mako, the tanks are used to mutate people, as evidenced by the tanks in the Nibelheim Reactor) by Zack, who then Practically carries a Mako Poisined Cloud out of ShinRa HQ and takes him to safety. Fast forward to the time where Zack died, when he tells Cloud that he is "Proof that I lived/Existed" Cloud's weakened mind, comprehends the words, but misinterprets them a bit. His mind starts to run through all the things that he has seen Zack do, much like we remember the times we spent with people we cared about when they die. However Cloud's mind starts identifying with Zack's actions, and puts Cloud in his shoes, forming false memories. It did this because Cloud saw in Zack, everything he had aspired to be. So it created a new identity by blending all the feats Zack had performed that he admired with his own personality. The personality Cloud has throughout FF VII is very much his own, but SOME (please understand that Cloud remembers an awful lot about his past even durring FFVII) of the memories are not (His role in the Nibelheim Incident for Example) This, coupled with his manipulation by an outside force (whether it is Sephiroth or Jenova pulling the strings, I leave that detail up to you) makes him wonder if he is a real person, or just another clone ("What's....my....number...?") Mako also appears to have a quality that allows one person submerged in Mako, to enter the mind of another (most likely the subconcious) as evidenced by Tifa helping him to remember things they way they actually happened, from inside his mind. Perhaps a Mako poisoned Cloud assimilated some of Zack's thoughts through the same method (although obviously accidentally.) This memory transference between Zack and Cloud is just a theory of mine, but it could account for some of the memories, and explain more readilly why Cloud has absolutely no memory of Zack in his concious mind, until after he and Tifa explore the contents of his Subconcious.


I Will end the rant here, as I have places to be going soon, but its been wonderful, actually sharing some of the things I know and some of the theories I've come up with over the years.


Feel Free to ask me questions, I am not all knowing, but I can provide insight and interpretation for just about any question pertaining to FFVII, using the knowledge and evidence I have gathered while playing the original, all of the spinoffs, and watching the movies (On the Way to a Smile, all the case episodes, and Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children and AC: COMPLETE[Only Viewed added and extended scences from COMPLETE, as it was very much similar otherwise: musical tweaks, and a few changes to visual effects. ])

Grimoire
24th Aug 2012, 13:45
ALSO, IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOME OF MY INFORMATION IS INCORRECT, IF YOU NOTICE ANYTHING INCORRECT ABOUT THE EVIDENCE I PRESENT HERE, PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!






...Sorry, I don't have the time for this. It's just a game anyway. Over and out.

Grimoire
30th Mar 2014, 20:55
It's just a game anyway.

I stand corrected (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/03/140330-embryonic-stem-cell-virus-science/).