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Allegory
21st Dec 2011, 19:59
Does Kain look like a normal vampire in BO2, because he finally changed history enough to become "healed" by Raziel and his spirit reaver?

That healing allowed him to look normal, as a vampire Scion of Balance, whereas before in Defiance he appears scarred all over, including his chest, because of his brutal murder and being corrupted at birth by Nutrapter?

Or did he look just as he did in Blood Omen, only with better graphics now?

Ber
21st Dec 2011, 21:11
Mate you are misinterpreting the storyline of the games, the Kain you see in BO2 is the young Kain, the "scarred" Kain you see in Defiance and Soul Reaver is the older Kain, evolved and manifestating the physical changes that vampiric evolution means, the "purification" of Kain at the end of Defiance was a spiritual purification, nothing physical (so far), the younger Kain from Blood Omen 2 will start looking like his older self some centuries after the ending of Blood Omen 2.

Allegory
21st Dec 2011, 21:45
Kain's chest scar healed immediately after Raziel was sealed within the Reaver, after he possessed Moebius's corpse at the end of Defiance.

Since this essentially restored the Pillars, they are shown as white in Blood Omen 2. So even if they fell, to allow the gradual return of the Hylden, using the Nexus stone and the portal, Kain still creates his empire.

He leaves the broken pillars and begins to conquer Nosgoth, with Vorador's aid. He had yet to be executed, since Moebius was bragging to Raziel, after he killed Kain in Avernus, that Vorador was captured with a considerable price in blood. Before executing Vorador, later on, to put Vorador's head on a statue a century later, when the demons flood Nosgoth, Kain actually kills Moebius preventing Vorador's execution, releasing him from his sarafan prisoners.

How do you explain the intro of Blood Omen 2, then?



I see I am dealing with an amateur. I will forgive your naivety.

There is no "younger Kain" in Nosgoth. That younger Kain becomes older Kain, and not the younger Kain you see in Blood Omen 2. Only after Kain managed to heal Nosgoth and the Pillars again, does he go back to the ambition of conquering Nosgoth.

After Raziel enters the blade, and the vampire citadel falls down, Kain still has the blue glowing Reaver that everyone sees in the Blood Omen 2 intro, with his memories of the past four hundred years, after the Pillars fell.

The true purpose was holding the Spirit Reaver, which is raziel's soul, inside the Blood Reaver. As Scion of Balance that is more important than having the pillars intact. It doesn't matter they collapsed, as Kain is now armed with the Spirit Reaver designed by the Ancients to defeat their foes, the Hylden. And this happens, really. After he gets the Nexus Stone out of the way, of course.

This unveiling of the true Reaver, the spirit reaver used by Raziel that enters the Soul Reaver weilded by Kain, allows for all those prophecies they saw on the murals in Defiance, to happen.

First the "vampire hero" Kain falls into a pit, with the Hylden champion victorious. Then the other outcome, with the vampire champion slaying the Hylden. This was the true battle prophecised by the Ancients, that no one had truly foresaw. They all thought Raziel was the Hylden champion, but he was not. The Hylden champion was the one who possessed Janos in the vampire citadel, and Raziel tried to stop him, but fails to kill Janos. Leaving the task up to Kain, four centuries later, in Blood Omen 2.

Despite all these changes, the Ancients had foreseen the Hylden's return to Nosgoth, that happens in Blood Omen 2.


Only then can the Scion of Balance be armed for his true endeavour, says Ariel, once she sees all that the Ancients knew, including the first Ancient who was Scion of Balance when the pillars were raised.

That "true endeavour" was to defeat the Hylden, kill the Hylden general, close the gate that allowed them to creep back into Nosgoth secretly for centuries after the pillars fell, using the nexus stone, and fulfill all those murals the Ancients had drawn all over Nosgoth, that Raziel and Kain were witnessing in Defiance.

Because Moebius's crusade had ended, with the Sarafan destroyed, the Hylden general was forced to revive that Order, and continue the crusade against vampires that was never finished, now that the Oracle and Moebius was powerless in the Underworld.

Am I missing something there?

Ber
21st Dec 2011, 23:49
Mate, first off, let's show some respect instead of calling people "amateurs" without knowing them ;).

Secondly, I find very hard to understand the three posts you have made in this thread... You are basically quoting some events described in the games but, what was the purpose of that?

Third, We do not now for sure if the Reaver blade Kain has in the intro of BO2 is the Spirit Reaver, this is not revealed and we cannot conclude it is the Spirit Reaver because it has a "blue light".

Fourth, well... I don't really know where are you getting your theories from (I have been reading your posts in the general discussion and I must say they are a bit intense to read and well, I would not make assumptions about where certain influences to make LoK came from because as we all know most of the inspirations Henning and Dyack had came from several resources, but in the end, they are your theories... I don't agree with them in some points, but I am not going to call you "naive amateur" for making up your own theories and describe them as fact, in the end I always say that respect must prevail.

Finally! Going back to topic, I have to say that there IS a younger Kain in Nosgoth, and there is also an Elder Kain (specially in Defiance where we realised there were two Kains in the same era) and the Kain shown in BO2 is not yet purified by Raziel, the only Kain who gets purified is the older Kain at the end of Defiance, this purification did not have any effect in the Kain from different eras (BO, BO2, SR and SR2)

I hoped that solved the question you started this post with, and please if you want to start a discussion do it with respect (I have to repeat it again) and don't try to start with the typical subject of "I know more, you know less" because if you do so... I wont be wasting time with such thing

Cheers. :)

Umah Bloodomen
22nd Dec 2011, 00:33
I'm going to advise the participants of this thread (especially our new friend) to remain constructive with their responses. Attacks (including those of an insulting nature) and retaliation are not welcome here.

Now then, I trust we can stick to the topic-at-hand. Should there be any qualms with this courteous "heads up", feel free to direct them via Private Channels.

Thanks and happy posting! :)

Lord_Aevum
22nd Dec 2011, 01:04
Well, I see some misinterpretations too - no offence intended.

- Kain from BO2 is 1600 years younger than Kain from Defiance; therefore we refer to either the younger or the Elder version of the character, I think that is clear. The Elder Kain from the future being healed in Defiance most probably didn't have any effect whatsoever on the younger Kain we see in BO2, in my opinion. I think the change is simply because he's based mainly on Chakan and not BO1's graphical style.

- The Pillars are shown to be white in BO2 because Kain restored each of them (except Balance) using the Pillar tokens. I don't think Elder Kain's purification by Raziel in Defiance could have any effect on the Pillars of that era, and in any case it occurred at least some time after they had already collapsed. I get that impression since in SR2, Elder Kain was present at the corruption of the Pillars, but it doesn't seem he got a second dose of insanity from that event. Also something to consider is the point that BO2's intro is a dream sequence created in a hurry by a secondary team in CD - probably singlehandedly by Steve Ross, who knows - with plenty of margin for human error (i.e. the first shot shows the Pillar of Energy in the centre of the dais instead of the Pillar of Balance).

- It's 99% certain that Vorador's execution still occured in all timelines ("do you so wish to return to the grave, old friend?" + Defiance's planned resurrection scene) and wasn't impeded or stopped by any incarnation of Kain, despite the reshuffles.

Paradoks
22nd Dec 2011, 10:45
I can see some misinterpretations as well ;). I'll just address those that haven't been pointed out yet.


It doesn't matter they collapsed, as Kain is now armed with the Spirit Reaver designed by the Ancients to defeat their foes, the Hylden. And this happens, really. After he gets the Nexus Stone out of the way, of course.

This unveiling of the true Reaver, the spirit reaver used by Raziel that enters the Soul Reaver weilded by Kain, allows for all those prophecies they saw on the murals in Defiance, to happen.

The Spirit Reaver did not enter the Blood Reaver. It dispersed into Kain. Raziel himself (not the Wraith Blade) entered the Blood Reaver thus turning it into Soul Reaver. Source (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=376341&postcount=1).


8. How can the wraith blade be sucked into the blood Reaver with Raziel's soul, wouldn't that mean that there
are two souls in there?

The purified wraith blade that Raziel possesses is not drained into the Soul Reaver along with Raziel. In order for Kain to become purified by the wraith blade that contains the purity, the wraith blade must be dispersed or released from its imprisonment into Kain. Thus in that one single moment Raziel is simultaneously trapping himself within the Reaver but as well finally freeing himself from thousands of years of torment.
The Soul Reaver is the only "version" of that blade until it gets smashed on Raziel's head in SR1. There is no physical version of the Spirit Reaver.
//---------------------------------------------


First the "vampire hero" Kain falls into a pit, with the Hylden champion victorious. Then the other outcome, with the vampire champion slaying the Hylden. This was the true battle prophecised by the Ancients, that no one had truly foresaw. They all thought Raziel was the Hylden champion, but he was not. The Hylden champion was the one who possessed Janos in the vampire citadel, and Raziel tried to stop him, but fails to kill Janos. Leaving the task up to Kain, four centuries later, in Blood Omen 2.


Kain was not the vampire hero depicted in the murals and the Sarafan Lord (who possessed Janos in the Citadel) is not the depicted hylden champion.
Source (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=287206&postcount=6)

Q: Which figure is Raziel in the murals?

A: He is both. His free will results in a hybrid destiny, where he is both redeemer and destroyer.
As Amy put it, "he does triumph, and paradoxically he does destroy himself at the same time."
and more (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=376341&postcount=1):

4. Could you explain how Raziel is both heroes, just so I'm sure(I think I get it, but just to make sure)

Raziel's prophesized arrival is interpreted differently by the Hylden and Vampires, because of their different points of view. In Amy's words, "As the Hylden champion, he destroys the Vampire messiah with his fiery sword (the Reaver) by sacrificing himself. And as the Vampire hero, he vanquishes the Hylden savior, by obliterating him(self) with the Reaver." As the Hylden champion, he is able to bring about their "release" (in a sense) by bringing Janos back to life. As the Vampire Messiah, he purifies the Scion of Balance insuring that the pillars are once more in the possession of the Vampires. His ability to fulfill both prophesizes is because he alone possess free will and was able to make those choices.
//---------------------------------------------


Only then can the Scion of Balance be armed for his true endeavour, says Ariel, once she sees all that the Ancients knew, including the first Ancient who was Scion of Balance when the pillars were raised.

That "true endeavour" was to defeat the Hylden, kill the Hylden general, close the gate that allowed them to creep back into Nosgoth secretly for centuries after the pillars fell, using the nexus stone, and fulfill all those murals the Ancients had drawn all over Nosgoth, that Raziel and Kain were witnessing in Defiance.
The true endeavour is obviously fighting the Elder God. The hylden have nothing to do with this.
And the first Ancient can't have been a Scion of Balance because Scion's role was to return the Pillars to the vampires.
Again - source (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=287273&postcount=10):

Q: What is the difference between the Scion of Balance and the Balance Guardian?

A: The Scion of Balance is the figure who is destined to return the Pillars to vampiric rule, the one who was prophesied by the ancient Vampires. Kain is both, whereas the other Balance Guardians were not.
//---------------------------------------------


- It's 99% certain that Vorador's execution still occured in all timelines ("do you so wish to return to the grave, old friend?" + Defiance's planned resurrection scene) and wasn't impeded or stopped by any incarnation of Kain, despite the reshuffles.
And there is a rather official quote (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1622&postcount=1) on that before Defiance was released:

How do you feel that in Bo2, Vorador was SO weak?
Almost everybody said that Bo2 vorador feels "weak" like the Bo2 team took something out of him. He doesn`t give the impression of been BIG, BAD POWERFUL vampire who destroyed Malek and the circle of 9.

Thanks a lot for your answer.

Hi Glucolisis,
I understand what you are saying about Vorador in BO2. Have you played BO1? Do you know what happened to Vorador? There are reasons for how Vorador is in BO2, but I can not yet reveal them to you. I know everyone is tired of me saying that, but it's true! Almost everything in the LOK universe happens for a reason. You'll see.
~Chris
Crystal Dynamics

Allegory
22nd Dec 2011, 12:02
I will absolutely doubt your "sources", for this very reason here:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Q: How can Kain survive without the Heart of Darkness?

A: His nature as the Scion of Balance allows him to survive.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is utterly ridiculous. Kain was a vampire !!! Immortal. Janos didn't die when his heart was torn from his chest, because he was immortal. It simply disabilitated him, in a sort of lethargy for five centuries later when Raziel learns about this from Vorador in the swamp.

Kain's "heart of darkness" served two purposes. The first was to make him a vampire, from the human noble and balance guardian he was before Mortanius sought to make him a vampire like the original guardians before his and Moebius's revolt.

Second, was to protect the heart of darkness with it's Ancient blood, from the Hylden. Who needed it to feed the Mass in BO2, which could have killed everyone in Nosgoth, except the Hylden. The Builder reveals this, also how his blood allows for the Mass to be killed. Once Kain killed the Mass, Janos restored himself fully, no longer being drained by the Mass, or imprisoned there by the Hylden captors.

Otherwise the Heart of Darkness was useless to Kain, who was already dead or "undead", thus could very well survive without a beating heart. Unlike his enemies, the human sarafan from BO2, who died immediately after Kain ripped their hearts out through their chests.

Kain doesn't simply die because he has no heart. He doesn't need a heart to pump any "vampire blood" through his body. After the Heart of Darkness served to make him a vampire, he remains a vampire even if the heart of darkness is removed. In fact, this is a more plausible explanation for Kain's siring of the six sarafan lieutenants. He raised them just as Mortanius raised him, by keeping the Heart of Darkness in their chest, until they revive as vampires, and their souls are restored to their now undead corpses. Which becomes possible, since after Avernus, and the battle with Raziel, Kain learns he had the Heart of Darkness in his chest, and could manage to use it to revive the six Sarafan as vampires, a millenia later. Only that's hard because he doesn't have it in his chest anymore, thus it would be impossible for the Sarafan to ever be raised as his six lieutenants, no?

Irregardless. Kain is a vampire. He can easily survive the loss of a heart, since only the living need a heart to survive. Kain being undead can survive without a heart. Since Moebius's snake staff only affected the vampire heart itself, and not the rest of a vampire's body, Kain could kill him immediately. Which happens in Defiance, after which Raziel reaves his soul in the Underworld, ensuring Moebius is never ressurected again by the Oracle. Moebius returns to being just another nameless soul with no memories, trapped in the Underworld for ever.

Kain was never meant to die, from losing that Heart. He didn't need it in the first place, to live. He only needed it at first, to turn his dead corpse into an undead vampire, in Blood Omen 1. If you couldn't seriously even gather that much, which should be obvious, your seriosity is found wanting. I cannot trust your other "sources" or answers, because of this alone.

Raziel was possessed by the Unspoken, when he reaved Turel's green soul beneath Avernus, being driven by those voices speaking through Turel and Mortanius to kill Kain, finally. He does so, retrieving the Heart of Darkness, who's blood from an ancient Janos, permits the Hylden to weaken the Binding even more, before the Heart is returned to Janos, for his revival in Vorador's hideout.

Once the Unspoken in Avernus had removed the ancient heart from the Scion of Balance, and had it in the open, they were able to open another portal immediately, from their dimension, behind Kain. Possibly to drain some blood from the Heart, just as Raziel pushes Kain into that opening, directly in the demon dimension where the Hylden were banished to. Kain is simply weakened by the loss of a vampire heart, but being undead can still survive it, as blood actually comes from what he drinks, and not from being pumped in his chest. Logic, people, how could the loss of a heart kill an undead? Don't be childish, now.

When Kain regains some strength "several chapters later", he finds the Hylden in the demon realm, kills them, enters Nosgoth through the portal they were opening, sees demons and Hylden pouring everywhere, stopping him from reaching the Vampire Citadel. Kills them as well. As Moebius says to the Oracle: "The Hylden are merely ... an inconvenience. They will be dealt with, in time". This means they all realise Kain's apparent death gaped open the Binding, which released some of the Hylden unto Nosgoth, and Moebius planned to use his mercenaries to kill the Hylden, just as they do in SR2, when Raziel is sent a century ahead in time, and sees the mercenaries of Moebius fighting demons and hylden in the Sarafan Stronghold, even after Moebius's spectre appears to warn him. So Moebius knew his army of cut-throats could kill the Hylden, eventually, even without any help centuries later from "young Kain" or any such complications that truly don't belong in Defiance.

After Janos is revived, the Hylden already broke the Binding, because that young Kain was "refusing the sacrifice" forcing the Pillars to topple. As they do, the Hylden General, possessed Janos and later becomes "the Sarafan Lord", since Moebius and the Sarafan priests were already dead. Now, the older Kain, wasn't called by the Pillars to become the new Guardian of Balance. He never died, being a vampire, so he returned from Raziel's temporary banishment to the Hylden's demon plane. Through the same openings that the demons and Hylden were pouring forth unto Nosgoth, after their battle at Avernus.

By ignoring the simplest of logic and common sense, your answers generally exert the true storyline of the series. Creating unnecessary plotholes, which don't even exist in the real plot line. Try sticking to the real Legacy of Kain, this time. If you wish to "provide answers". Otherwise you're no better than Moebius, manipulating everyone with lies. Lies I easily disproved just now.

As for Raziel, I never said he wasn't the Vampire Champion, as I believe Kain also is four centuries later when defeating the Hylden once more, as prophecised by the Ancients, of course. I merely said Raziel was never the Hylden champion. Yes, the Hylden were banished to the demon realm from Nosgoth, because they sought to defy the Oracle that the Ancients followed. But Raziel was being manipulated by the "Unspoken" or Hylden themselves, to spill some of the Ancient blood that Janos held, in Avernus, where their greatest cultist sanctuary was, and their power strong enough to even possess Raziel, temporarily driving him blind with rage. As seen when Raziel's eyes glow green, when he attacks Kain in Avernus, just after he reaved Turel's soul who had the same green glow in his eyes when the Unspoken .... spoke through him.

The Hylden champion was always the Hylden General, who later becomes the Sarafan Lord in BO2. No one else, ever. Raziel was the vampire champion who endowed the "Scion of Balance for his true endeavour". To slay the Hylden, and cleanse Nosgoth of their genocidal corruption and gylph magic.

Raziel doesn't kill him, because he spared Janos, and then is killed himself, thrown back to the Underworld. Unlike Kain who actually finishes the deed, since his battle against the Hylden was truly the prophecised one in the murals they see in the Vampire Citadel.

Those murals in Defiance, are the ones meant to happen once the Hylden return to the world again, and almost defeat Kain. But Kain takes revenge, and wins the war, then retaking Nosgoth from the Sarafan tyrants.

As for Vorador, he is only killed in the distant future, where Raziel is thrown a century ahead, after he spares Kain. Moebius admits he was killed by Kain "a century ago", leaving him the only vampire in Nosgoth.

But that timeline never happened, since Moebius is killed by Kain and reaved by Raziel in the Underworld, beneath the vampire citadel. So he never appears as a spectre or ghost or illusion a century later. He loses all identity as "Moebius" when Raziel reaves him finally. He can never be ressurected by the Oracle, again. Thus fails to complete the "execution of Vorador" that he brags to Raziel about, after Raziel takes the Heart of Darkness from Kain, in Avernus.



Moebius: "Raziel, our conquering hero. Congratulations on the death of Kain."

Raziel: "You expect similar congratulations on the death of Vorador ... or has he eluded you?"

Moebius: "We have him .... but not without a considerable price in blood" Then tosses a giant sword of Vorador at Raziel's feet. Moebius doesn't say they killed Vorador, just that "they have him", as captive. Vorador was simply captured by the mercenaries of Moebius.

Raziel: "That will have pleased him ...."

M.: "Let it sustain him ... until his head is off .... and every vampire in Nosgoth, at last ... is dead"

This proves, beyond any possible doubt, that Vorador was still alive, and caught with a considerable sacrifice to the mercenaries, but lost his sword and was held for future execution. Even Moebius says, let it sustain Vorador until Vorador is dead, and .... at last, all vampires in Nosgoth are dead. So Moebius says they aren't yet dead, Vorador was simply a prisoner then, and not killed in battle. They "have him", and Vorador is still "sustained" by the dead he killed on Moebius's team. How much clear can this get?

Vorador was far from executed, at that point, when Raziel has the Heart of Darkness, and later revives Janos Audron. Vorador, apparently, was never executed at all, in Defiance. Just "apprehended", and even Moebius admits he lives on. Raziel acknowledges this by saying "That will have pleased him". Moebius, again, confirms it does sustain him, "until his head is off". Clearly speaking of a future time, since Vorador wasn't executed yet. He wasn't dead, at all, dammit !! Why does everyone assume that?

Only Kain wasn't dead, he was still undead and thrown in the demon realm, by Raziel. After he returns, he saves Vorador, thus the "last two remaining vampires in Nosgoth" aren't dead at all. One is captured still, and the other will soon rescue him by killing Moebius in the vampire citadel. For good, this time.

At the end of their conversation in the ..... palace of Vorador:


Raziel: And Kain thought I had free will ....
M: Oh, but you do, and that is the greatest triumph. To have compelled the one player who could chose, into doing what we required. And now Kain is dead ... Well done, faithful servant. And now ... I have an execution to see to ....

Then those creepy tattoo mercenaries attack Raziel. Whilst Moebius teleports from there, to continue with plans for Vorador's execution. Who, again, couldn't be stressed any more clearer that he was alive, and not dead. But captured. I tried linking the video to the cut scenes, so you can see for yourselves that Vorador wasn't dead at all, but was only meant to be executed later. As he had just been captured, while Raziel fought Kain in Avernus Cathedral.

My question to you is .... why would Moebius make future plans to attend Vorador's execution, if he was already dead? :lol: Really, I cannot laugh enough. No laughter truly does justice to the weight of your joined statements.

Vorador never died, people. To assume this, is to not have a firm grasp on the english language. Nor do I, since english isn't my native language. But I still know enough to understand from their own words, that Vorador was only a prisoner, and didn't die yet. They were possibly keeping him for some public execution or whatever. It doesn't matter. Vorador wasn't dead in Defiance. He was rescued by Kain, after he killed Moebius. Or rescued by Janos after he instructed Raziel to use the final Spirit Forge on his Soul Reaver, and then teleported away.

Why wouldn't Janos have saved Vorador, then? Janos came to life shortly after this discussion between Raziel and Moebius. So he would have definately saved Vorador from captivity.

Now that that's settled, can we return to the original question? Is Kain in Blood Omen 2 the kain at the end of Defiance? Or some "younger Kain" which shouldn't really exist, because he dissappears in an alternate timeline, to later become the only kain in Nosgoth, who is the Kain we see in Defiance.

Again, try to understand this. The younger version of Kain has to live out those alternate timelines, to later "dissappear into", or become gradually, the Kain we see in Soul Reaver and Defiance. That younger kain becomes the mature Kain, and essentially dissapears from Nosgoth.

Even if Defiance has "two Kains", one who breaks the Binding and topples the pillars, and one who kills Moebius, the first one eventually travels through time enough times to become the second one. So he doesn't remain in Nosgoth for long. Even if this time paradox makes you assume the younger Kain remains in Nosgoth, he doesn't. Not for long, since he is the only one who later becomes that second Kain, whom is truly the one who stays in Nosgoth indefinately.

This is hard to explain, in english, sorry. But the paradox only works since the younger Kain, doesn't remain in Nosgoth, but becomes the second Kain after several centuries, or more than a millenia, who knows. So the first one, doesn't have an indefinate stay in Nosgoth. Or an open fate, as the second does. He is bound to a closed fate, that leads to become this second Kain you see in Nosgoth.

Who is the one healed by Raziel, his chest scar healing, defeats the Elder God, then saves Vorador.

Unless you think the younger Kain who refused the sacrifice and topples the pillars, is the one who saves Vorador from execution? And he only does this, because Moebius was killed by his future self beneath the Vampire Citadel?

Either way, the younger Kain "fades into" the second Kain. He doesn't have a true destiny, he's just like a memory that has to happen, without interference. That's why Kain pays no attention to his younger self, as that younger self essentially was him, and becomes him after many many centuries ahead.

So only that older Kain, with all those time travels behind him, remains the true Kain in Nosgoth. The other one was only him before all those adventures. Like a past self, that eventually leads to this present self. Uncircumstantial, completely outside the story, which has already happened, and isn't changed.

Now, for the murals. The first one shows Kain with the Reaver, fighting the Hylden General, or Sarafan Lord from Blood Omen 2.

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/_images/murals/MuralAdversary.jpg

Then the Hylden with fiery glowing eyes, and a firey sword defeats Kain. This happens, when Kain is thrown in a pit, his armies scattered. Just before this, the Hylden General (Champion) leader of the Sarafan, is shown with glowing green eyes, and as soon as Kain and his vampires start to hiss and fly at him, he unleashes a blazing bolt of lightning unto the vampires. This could possibly be the Glyph magic. Either way the Hylden champion is the same on from the Blood Omen 2, intro. As revealed by his fiery eyes that glow, and the lightning that he uses from his sword, against Kain and his legions. This is the prophecised battle of the Ancients, that is shown in Kain's memories in Blood Omen 2, the intro cutscene.
http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/_images/murals/MuralFall.jpg
http://www.thunderboltgames.com/s/reviews/xbox/bloodomen2_4.jpg
http://www.thelostworlds.net/BO2/Images/Prologue_and_Epilogue-Intro-SL_No_Nexus2.JPG
http://mediang.gameswelt.net/public/images/200206/a799104a54bccf01ff86e5a8f8e9c335.jpg
http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/_images/murals/MuralDestroyer.jpg
All of those confirm this was the foretold battle by the Ancients, against their old nemesis, the Hylden, and their champion that takes over the Sarafan in Blood Omen 2.

And at the very end of Blood Omen 2 ... this happens:

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/_images/murals/MuralRedeemer.jpg

Kain redeems himself, by killing the Sarafan Lord / Hylden Champion, destroying the portal that sustained the Hylden, killing them all from Nosgoth. then frees them from the Sarafan oppression, and restored Nosgoth, like the Guardian of Balance he always was.

Kain was the redeemer and destroyer of the vampire prophecies. He just looks more human than Ancient, because the Ancients didn't realise yet, they were cursed with sterility and their vampires would have to be human vampires, with their dark gift.

But the Hylden champion is identical to the Sarafan Lord / Hylden General, in Blood Omen. Both the intro where he uses the "flaming sword", against Kain and the vampires, and even defeats Kain, as the prophecies foretell. Then Kain does the otherwise. Redeems himself, and destroys the Hylden champion, saving Nosgoth.

They even share the same formation on their backs. The Hylden champion has those wing like hooks, and the Hylden general has the Sarafan order's "horns" on his armor. Both on their backs, in the exact same form as the Hylden wings.

There's no escaping this people. You've been wrong, all along in your misinterpretations. But I forgive ...

ReaverofCupcakes
22nd Dec 2011, 18:54
I will absolutely doubt your "sources", for this very reason here:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Q: How can Kain survive without the Heart of Darkness?

A: His nature as the Scion of Balance allows him to survive.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'd hate to break it to you my friend, but these "sources" that you so casually dismiss is the official word laid down by the Crystal Dynamics team who were in charge of LOK. So if you have a hard time believing in them, then that's your problem. Not ours.



This is utterly ridiculous. Kain was a vampire !!! Immortal. Janos didn't die when his heart was torn from his chest, because he was immortal. It simply disabilitated him, in a sort of lethargy for five centuries later when Raziel learns about this from Vorador in the swamp.

Kain and Janos are not the same kind of vampire. Kain was created through necromancy whereas Janos was not. He carries the curse in his blood, not his soul, meaning that what might usually kill a vampire like Janos would not necessarily affect Kain. And pertaining to Janos, when his heart was torn out, he was for all intensive purposes dead. The only reason that his body didn't decompose was because his heart was intact. If you walk along the path in SR2 when you are in the first era in the game and later in the Sarafan crusade era, you see vampires staked up with the spikes through their chests, their hearts destroyed and clearly not in a state of lethargy. So by extent, if Janos' heart were ever destroyed, his body would decompose.


Kain's "heart of darkness" served two purposes. The first was to make him a vampire, from the human noble and balance guardian he was before Mortanius sought to make him a vampire like the original guardians before his and Moebius's revolt.

That's mostly correct. Though Mortanius's motive was to create the Scion of Balance, as he told Raziel in Avernus:


Ah, now you think of that. But as I told you, you are too late. The Heart has served its function. I have used it to set prophecy in motion. I created the champion foretold by my masters, who is destined to be your destroyer. The Scion of Balance will save Nosgoth -- the Pillars will return to vampire guardianship as intended, and your race will be cast down forever.



Kain doesn't simply die because he has no heart. He doesn't need a heart to pump any "vampire blood" through his body. After the Heart of Darkness served to make him a vampire, he remains a vampire even if the heart of darkness is removed.

As I stated before, that is because he carries the curse in his soul. Mortanius only used the heart of darkness because it was reputed to restore vampiric "un-life". But since Mortanius was not a vampire himself, he had to use necromancy to resurrect Kain as a vampire.


In fact, this is a more plausible explanation for Kain's siring of the six sarafan lieutenants. He raised them just as Mortanius raised him, by keeping the Heart of Darkness in their chest, until they revive as vampires, and their souls are restored to their now undead corpses. Which becomes possible, since after Avernus, and the battle with Raziel, Kain learns he had the Heart of Darkness in his chest, and could manage to use it to revive the six Sarafan as vampires, a millenia later. Only that's hard because he doesn't have it in his chest anymore, thus it would be impossible for the Sarafan to ever be raised as his six lieutenants, no?

Firstly, Kain doesn't need the heart of darkness to create a vampire as he already carries the curse in his soul and could thereby pass it on by sharing a portion of it with the corpse. This is elaborated on by Amy Hennig, leading writer and director of SR1, SR2, and Defiance:


Q: How did Janos make Voradoor-like Kain made Raziel and his sons, or like
Mortanius made Kain? Was the way Kain made and the way Kain created his
brethren the same? Howd Voradoor make his children?
A: Without going into too much detail, there are various ways a vampire can be born/created.
The ancient/original Vampires (like Janos) had one method, by which Vorador was raised, and by which Vorador would also raise his vampire offspring. This would be a more "traditional" method, where the vampiric curse is passed from one vampire to a human.
Mortanius raised Kain by necromancy -- this gives Kain a unique vampiric heritage.
Because of this unique heritage, Kain's method of creating his vampire "sons" is also unique -- rather than using the traditional "blood" gift to create a vampire, Kain must donate a portion of his spirit. By breathing a portion of his soul into a corpse, that creature's soul is drawn back into the body and the creature is resurrected as a vampire. This is how Kain raised his six lieutenants in the Tomb of Sarafan.



Kain was never meant to die, from losing that Heart. He didn't need it in the first place, to live. He only needed it at first, to turn his dead corpse into an undead vampire, in Blood Omen 1. If you couldn't seriously even gather that much, which should be obvious, your seriosity is found wanting. I cannot trust your other "sources" or answers, because of this alone.

I'm sorry that you feel that way. However as your answers are purely theoretical, I find your seriousness wanting as well.


Raziel was possessed by the Unspoken, when he reaved Turel's green soul beneath Avernus, being driven by those voices speaking through Turel and Mortanius to kill Kain, finally. He does so, retrieving the Heart of Darkness, who's blood from an ancient Janos, permits the Hylden to weaken the Binding even more, before the Heart is returned to Janos, for his revival in Vorador's hideout.

Raziel was never possessed by the Unspoken, Mortanius and Janos are the only characters to have ever been possessed by the Unspoken a.k.a. the Hylden Lord. Because Turel was being possessed by multiple Hylden at the same time and for so long, when Raziel finally killed him, the taint of the Hylden was still very strong within his soul. And it was this tainted soul that Raziel absorbed, which in turn influenced his judgement in the battle with Kain. Raziel himself admits this after he "kills" Kain:


Kain was gone. The madness of this place had somehow fueled my rage, and as it subsided I felt no elation, no sense of victory. Only a calm certainty that we had once again walked blindly into our enemies' trap. I couldn't be sure whether Kain had truly intended to destroy me - and now it appeared I would never know.

The blood of the Ancients has nothing to do with the Binding. The pillars, its guardians, and the guardianship in general are the only things connected to the Binding. The Hylden Lord only needed Jano's blood to power the Mass, as we find out in BO2.


Once the Unspoken in Avernus had removed the ancient heart from the Scion of Balance, and had it in the open, they were able to open another portal immediately, from their dimension, behind Kain. Possibly to drain some blood from the Heart, just as Raziel pushes Kain into that opening, directly in the demon dimension where the Hylden were banished to. Kain is simply weakened by the loss of a vampire heart, but being undead can still survive it, as blood actually comes from what he drinks, and not from being pumped in his chest. Logic, people, how could the loss of a heart kill an undead? Don't be childish, now.

Again, neither the blood of the Ancients nor the HoD have anything to do with the Binding or the creation of portals. The Binding was simply so weakened at that point that when Raziel TK'd Kain, the force was powerful enough to breach dimensions. Also, don't be disrespectful to the other posters because they have a differing opinion from you. This forum is for polite discourse only, please.


When Kain regains some strength "several chapters later", he finds the Hylden in the demon realm, kills them, enters Nosgoth through the portal they were opening, sees demons and Hylden pouring everywhere, stopping him from reaching the Vampire Citadel. Kills them as well. As Moebius says to the Oracle: "The Hylden are merely ... an inconvenience. They will be dealt with, in time".

By finding "Hylden" in the demon realm, don't you mean demons? Because that is what they are. Now to the portal opening, that was because at the same time Raziel was forging the Spirit Reaver, which in turn summoned all of the Balance guardians, past and present, to the Citadel. Here's an excerpt from a conversation between Ariel and Raziel:


It is accomplished. The Forge summons the spirit of every Balance Guardian to itself, for this final purpose.

Raziel
Ariel? You?

Ariel
Yes, Raziel - yet I am much more than I was. The veil is lifted from my sight. My spirit, united with the souls of my predecessors, is drawn here now for the final baptism of the blade. To restore Balance, the sword must be rendered pure by Spirit. Release me, Raziel - the Soul Reaver has the power. Release us all. For this we were called.

As another example, Kain comments on being drawn to the Vampire Citadel:


I felt strongly drawn - compelled, even - not to linger here, but to go to the Vampire Citadel, at once.





This means they all realise Kain's apparent death gaped open the Binding, which released some of the Hylden unto Nosgoth, and Moebius planned to use his mercenaries to kill the Hylden, just as they do in SR2, when Raziel is sent a century ahead in time, and sees the mercenaries of Moebius fighting demons and hylden in the Sarafan Stronghold, even after Moebius's spectre appears to warn him. So Moebius knew his army of cut-throats could kill the Hylden, eventually, even without any help centuries later from "young Kain" or any such complications that truly don't belong in Defiance.

Well since Kain wasn't actually dead, then how would it affect anything? Now in SR2, the mercenaries are fighting demons, not Hylden. They are two completely separate races.



By ignoring the simplest of logic and common sense, your answers generally exert the true storyline of the series. Creating unnecessary plotholes, which don't even exist in the real plot line. Try sticking to the real Legacy of Kain, this time. If you wish to "provide answers". Otherwise you're no better than Moebius, manipulating everyone with lies. Lies I easily disproved just now.

The true storyline? What we have been giving you is the true storyline. As dictated to us by the games and the developers. Now please stop with this disrespectful language.



The Hylden champion was always the Hylden General, who later becomes the Sarafan Lord in BO2. No one else, ever. Raziel was the vampire champion who endowed the "Scion of Balance for his true endeavour". To slay the Hylden, and cleanse Nosgoth of their genocidal corruption and gylph magic.

Raziel is both champions period. Amy Hennig confirmed it in her interviews. It is fact.



As for Vorador, he is only killed in the distant future, where Raziel is thrown a century ahead, after he spares Kain. Moebius admits he was killed by Kain "a century ago", leaving him the only vampire in Nosgoth.

I have to ask this. Did you play BO1? Because close to the end of the game, after Kain returns to the present, you see a cutscene where Vorador is decapitated. As in killed.


But that timeline never happened, since Moebius is killed by Kain and reaved by Raziel in the Underworld, beneath the vampire citadel. So he never appears as a spectre or ghost or illusion a century later. He loses all identity as "Moebius" when Raziel reaves him finally. He can never be ressurected by the Oracle, again. Thus fails to complete the "execution of Vorador" that he brags to Raziel about, after Raziel takes the Heart of Darkness from Kain, in Avernus.

Moebius is still killed by BO1 Kain. That event never has changed. The Moebius you see at the Citadel was after he had been resurrected by the EG. So no, he doesn't fail to complete the execution. If you need proof of this, here is a minor excerpt from a conversation between Kain and Moebius:


Moebius
...I serve One who has power over life and death.

Kain
Then go to him

Kain withdraws the Reaver sharply.
Moebius gasps in pain, drops to his knees, and sinks to the floor, dying.

Moebius
I am His obedient... His devoted servant... Soon, all pain will fade, and my master will bring me life once more.



This proves, beyond any possible doubt, that Vorador was still alive, and caught with a considerable sacrifice to the mercenaries, but lost his sword and was held for future execution. Even Moebius says, let it sustain Vorador until Vorador is dead, and .... at last, all vampires in Nosgoth are dead. So Moebius says they aren't yet dead, Vorador was simply a prisoner then, and not killed in battle. They "have him", and Vorador is still "sustained" by the dead he killed on Moebius's team. How much clear can this get?

Vorador was far from executed, at that point, when Raziel has the Heart of Darkness, and later revives Janos Audron. Vorador, apparently, was never executed at all, in Defiance. Just "apprehended", and even Moebius admits he lives on. Raziel acknowledges this by saying "That will have pleased him". Moebius, again, confirms it does sustain him, "until his head is off". Clearly speaking of a future time, since Vorador wasn't executed yet. He wasn't dead, at all, dammit !! Why does everyone assume that?

Did you watch a different scene than I did? Because I think it went something like this:


Raziel enters the library from the eastern door. Moebius stands at the balcony, surrounded by his mercenaries.

Raziel
In my absence, the estate had been overrun by Moebius's soldiers. I hoped that they had not yet found the entrance to the crypt, or discovered the body of Janos. Of Vorador, there was no sign.

Moebius
Raziel - the conquering hero. I understand we are to offer congratulations. Kain, at last, is dead.

Raziel
I suppose you expect similar congratulations on the death of Vorador? Or has he eluded you?

Moebius throws Vorador's sword at Raziel's feet.

Moebius
We have him. But not without a considerable price in blood.

Raziel
That will have pleased him.

Moebius
Let it sustain him until his head is off, and every vampire in Nosgoth at last is dead.

Raziel
And will that knowledge sustain you? You too are going to your death.

Moebius
For a true servant of the one God, death is never bitter. I will go - again at peace with the knowledge that I have played my small part in our master's plans. Kain is at last destroyed, and you have carried out the deed. Which hero do you think you are now? The vampire savior? Or the other one? Have you realized yet that it didn't matter to us which one either of you thought you were, so long as the result was the same in the end? And now, Kain is dead. Really, I cannot thank you enough.

Raziel
So this has all been arranged, every step of the way. And Kain thought I truly had free will.

Moebius
Oh, but you do. And there's the greatest triumph of all, to have compelled the one player who could choose into doing exactly what we required. Well done, faithful servant. And now - I have an execution to see to.

You see at the end? Why would Moebius tell Raziel that he had an execution to see to, if it was at some much later date? And when he says he had an execution see to, that means he was going straight from there to the execution.



Then those creepy tattoo mercenaries attack Raziel. Whilst Moebius teleports from there, to continue with plans for Vorador's execution. Who, again, couldn't be stressed any more clearer that he was alive, and not dead. But captured. I tried linking the video to the cut scenes, so you can see for yourselves that Vorador wasn't dead at all, but was only meant to be executed later. As he had just been captured, while Raziel fought Kain in Avernus Cathedral.

My question to you is .... why would Moebius make future plans to attend Vorador's execution, if he was already dead? :lol: Really, I cannot laugh enough. No laughter truly does justice to the weight of your joined statements.

Again, play BO1.


Vorador never died, people. To assume this, is to not have a firm grasp on the english language. Nor do I, since english isn't my native language. But I still know enough to understand from their own words, that Vorador was only a prisoner, and didn't die yet. They were possibly keeping him for some public execution or whatever. It doesn't matter. Vorador wasn't dead in Defiance. He was rescued by Kain, after he killed Moebius. Or rescued by Janos after he instructed Raziel to use the final Spirit Forge on his Soul Reaver, and then teleported away.

Why wouldn't Janos have saved Vorador, then? Janos came to life shortly after this discussion between Raziel and Moebius. So he would have definately saved Vorador from captivity.

This is the scene right after Raziel had resurrected Janos:


Janos
-- Raziel, the heir of prophecy... You came for the Reaver - just before the Sarafan found me...

Janos touches his chest at the memory of his murder. Raziel regards him with suspicion. His tone here is flat, deadened -- after killing Kain, and realizing the Hylden prophecy, Raziel is empty and disillusioned.

Raziel
You've been entombed here for five centuries. Your murderers are long dead.

Janos
in disbelief
Five hundred years? And Vorador--

Raziel
interrupting
--also dead.

Janos looks stricken.

Raziel
Your bloodline is erased. The age of the vampires is coming to an end.

Janos is alarmed, trying to take all this in.

Pretty self-explanatory.



Now that that's settled, can we return to the original question? Is Kain in Blood Omen 2 the kain at the end of Defiance? Or some "younger Kain" which shouldn't really exist, because he dissappears in an alternate timeline, to later become the only kain in Nosgoth, who is the Kain we see in Defiance.

Again, try to understand this. The younger version of Kain has to live out those alternate timelines, to later "dissappear into", or become gradually, the Kain we see in Soul Reaver and Defiance. That younger kain becomes the mature Kain, and essentially dissapears from Nosgoth.

Even if Defiance has "two Kains", one who breaks the Binding and topples the pillars, and one who kills Moebius, the first one eventually travels through time enough times to become the second one. So he doesn't remain in Nosgoth for long. Even if this time paradox makes you assume the younger Kain remains in Nosgoth, he doesn't. Not for long, since he is the only one who later becomes that second Kain, whom is truly the one who stays in Nosgoth indefinately.

This is hard to explain, in english, sorry. But the paradox only works since the younger Kain, doesn't remain in Nosgoth, but becomes the second Kain after several centuries, or more than a millenia, who knows. So the first one, doesn't have an indefinate stay in Nosgoth. Or an open fate, as the second does. He is bound to a closed fate, that leads to become this second Kain you see in Nosgoth.

Who is the one healed by Raziel, his chest scar healing, defeats the Elder God, then saves Vorador.

Unless you think the younger Kain who refused the sacrifice and topples the pillars, is the one who saves Vorador from execution? And he only does this, because Moebius was killed by his future self beneath the Vampire Citadel?

Either way, the younger Kain "fades into" the second Kain. He doesn't have a true destiny, he's just like a memory that has to happen, without interference. That's why Kain pays no attention to his younger self, as that younger self essentially was him, and becomes him after many many centuries ahead.

So only that older Kain, with all those time travels behind him, remains the true Kain in Nosgoth. The other one was only him before all those adventures. Like a past self, that eventually leads to this present self. Uncircumstantial, completely outside the story, which has already happened, and isn't changed.

There is only one Kain and one Kain only. There is no younger Kain that "fades" into an Elder Kain. The series starts out with a young Kain in BO1, who then ages into the older Kain we see from SR1, SR2, and Defiance. The Kain we see in BO2 is still the Kain we know throughout the entire series, only younger. There is no evidence to suggest that Younger Kain has a separate destiny than Elder Kain. They are one and the same person.



Kain was the redeemer and destroyer of the vampire prophecies. He just looks more human than Ancient, because the Ancients didn't realise yet, they were cursed with sterility and their vampires would have to be human vampires, with their dark gift.

But the Hylden champion is identical to the Sarafan Lord / Hylden General, in Blood Omen. Both the intro where he uses the "flaming sword", against Kain and the vampires, and even defeats Kain, as the prophecies foretell. Then Kain does the otherwise. Redeems himself, and destroys the Hylden champion, saving Nosgoth.

Your misinterpreting the vampire prophecies. Kain is neither Redeemer or Destroyer as he is neither the Vampire or Hylden champions. Kain is the Scion of Balance and nothing else. Raziel, on the other hand, is both in either regard. As the only being in LOK possessing free will, he can choose to be both. As the Hylden champion, he battles and "kills" Kain, the Scion of Balance, while as the Vampire champion, he purifies Kain's spirit, both redeeming himself while paradoxically destroying himself at the same time when he is absorbed by the Reaver.

Aranor
22nd Dec 2011, 19:05
Wow where to begin. Lets start with doubting sources. Those sources are Q&A sessions which were answered by the creators of the game. Doubting them is not going to get very far.

Thought the time of the world defiance takes place in is right around the end of blood omen it does not mean what you think it does. Kain is existing in two iterations at this time. The younger self who is going to refuse to kill himself and the older self from the end of soul reaver. The younger does not know the older is around.

Janos did not die as we see death because his heart was not destroyed. If all vamipres simply could not die just because they are vampires Janos would not be the only one of his kind left.

Heart of Darkness's purpose 1 I agree with. 2, how does the heart of darkness protect the heart of darkness with ancient blood?

Kain did not use the heart of darkness on the lieutenants. How he raised them is explained in the soul reaver manual. He used portions of his soul to anchor the souls of the fallen sarafan priests. kain did not know he held the heart of darkness in his chest. What he saw in the underworld when mortanius changed him was little more than an illusion while mortanius performed surgery.

When Raziel reaves moebius's soul this is after Vorador has been killed and shortly after young Kain just killed him. The events at the end of blood omen and defiance are running simultaneously.


This proves, beyond any possible doubt, that Vorador was still alive, and caught with a considerable sacrifice to the mercenaries, but lost his sword and was held for future execution. Even Moebius says, let it sustain Vorador until Vorador is dead, and .... at last, all vampires in Nosgoth are dead. So Moebius says they aren't yet dead, Vorador was simply a prisoner then, and not killed in battle. They "have him", and Vorador is still "sustained" by the dead he killed on Moebius's team. How much clear can this get?


The quote you quoted proves nothing. Its all a matter of time.

Moebius excuses himself from Raziel who just tore the heart of darkness out of older Kains chest and sent him to the demon dimension via a portal.
Moebius goes to kill Vorador.
Raziel revives Janos who teleports them both to the vampire citadel.
Young kain arrives just as Vorador dies and fights moebius ending in Moebius dying.
While Young Kain fights Mortanius Raziel is sent to embue the reaver with the spirit forge.
Young Kain kills Mortanius.
Together Raziel and Janos witness the shattering of the pillars presumably because young Kain just chose to exist over final death. (I say presumable because I feel there was more to it)
Janos is then possessed by the Hylden Lord who just left Mortanius's dead mind and weakens Raziel to the point where he has to enter the spectral realm.
Elder Kain lands in the vampire citaladel via batform after returning to Nosgoth where he sees Moebius talking to himself and after arguing with older Kain states "To kill me? Again?"
Older Kain kills Moebius.
Raziel witnesses Moebius asking the elder god to revive him.
Before this can happen Raziel reaves moebius's soul then enters Moebius's dead body where Kain impales once again only to realise Raziel is haunting the body.

Janos never went to save Vorador for what I am guessing are 2 reasons. 1) Vorador was no longer important. Raziel was. 2) He had been bested by a handful or sarafan in his own home, how was he to stand against and army of them in their territory?

Kain and the Hylden Lord were not the champions depicted in the murals as has already been quoted. They were simply the big chiefs in their respective armies. Raziel as the Hylden and Vampire champion with free will was the one entity that could unbalance the tides and allow the Hylden to be released or the Vampires to reclaim their hold on the pillars. In allowing Kain to become the Scion of balance Raziel became the Vampire champion and the Hylden Champion never came to be. Had he truly finished off Kain and set the Hylden free he would have been the Hylden champion and the Vampire champion never would have been.

ghostlion88
22nd Dec 2011, 20:37
...doubting sources. Those sources are Q&A sessions which were answered by the creators of the game. Doubting them is not going to get very far.

Agreed. I think I remember them admitting to a few teeny tiny mistakes somewhere in their storylines as well. Something about Mobieus or Vorador in a time where they shouldn't have logically been. I honestly can't remember.

But with how intricate and complex the story and history is, and especially with how high-demand and intense game-design is (not to mention how well-made the LOK games are in the face of that) I wouldn't complain.

These people are expert writers, not omnipotent gods who are always flawless in every single calculation of potential past, present and future.

LOK has one of the richest and most epic stories of any game series ever created. Any mistakes are minor and probably only noticeable to those who play through each game many many times and over-analyze them...Admittedly I do still replay each LOK game over and over, only because I love them so much. They seem to get better every time. If they released an HD collection I'd certainly pre-order it.

essex1990
22nd Dec 2011, 20:44
.
Also something to consider is the point that BO2's intro is a dream sequence created in a hurry by a secondary team in CD - probably singlehandedly by Steve Ross, who knows - with plenty of margin for human error (i.e. the first shot shows the Pillar of Energy in the centre of the dais instead of the Pillar of Balance).


The fact that it is a DREAM sequence could be the reason why there is inaccuracies - i personally can recall many a dream which are not factually correct, visuals of places/people are wrong/have the wrong name. It is possible that Kain suffers from similar problems in his dreams.

Allegory
22nd Dec 2011, 21:12
I'd hate to break it to you my friend, but these "sources" that you so casually dismiss is the official word laid down by the Crystal Dynamics team who were in charge of LOK. So if you have a hard time believing in them, then that's your problem. Not ours.

They can't reveal anything real, they use hints and suggestions and avoid answering. Because they can't just say everything as it, to spoil the gameplay for everyone.

They don't explain the storyline, that would be against the Code. So they can even mislead by those answers, to keep it more fun for us. For this I thank them.



Kain and Janos are not the same kind of vampire. Kain was created through necromancy whereas Janos was not. He carries the curse in his blood, not his soul, meaning that what might usually kill a vampire like Janos would not necessarily affect Kain. And pertaining to Janos, when his heart was torn out, he was for all intensive purposes dead. The only reason that his body didn't decompose was because his heart was intact. If you walk along the path in SR2 when you are in the first era in the game and later in the Sarafan crusade era, you see vampires staked up with the spikes through their chests, their hearts destroyed and clearly not in a state of lethargy. So by extent, if Janos' heart were ever destroyed, his body would decompose.

Janos survived his heart being taken out. With his chest open he talks to Raziel, as Raziel holds him and apologises. Janos says: "Perhaps this had been my purpose all along, to save your life this one time." While Raziel replies with tears ready to burst: "While I had taken yours !!!!" in a sort of Alexander's mother, played by Angelina Jolie voice, with a russian accent. Flawless !!!!!

And only later, as the Sarafan depart into the distance with his heart, does Janos weaken and lose consciousness. He is still alive, just in a lethargic coma. Since his heart was still beating for five centuries when it was missing from him.

As long as Janos's heart was still close, he opened his eyes, to speak to Raziel with his chest torn open, and heart clearly missing with those ribs broken before Raziel. As the heart goes further and further away, Janos loses his awareness, since the Heart is not even close to him, by the time the Sarafan return to their Stronghold.

Janos was cursed directly by the Hylden, as they were being sealed in the demon dimension. Kain only inherited this curse from Janos's own heart, beating in his chest, through him. Making his body vampiric as well. So out of all the vampires in Nosgoth, Kain is most like Janos having been sired by his own heart.

Those vampires may have also been burned first, or impaled on wooden sticks even. There were many ways to kill them, since taking their hearts out simply sealed them out of their bodies for awhile, as Dumah was. The impaling paralised their bodies, but it could also kill them if they were murdered, which apparently they were.



That's mostly correct. Though Mortanius's motive was to create the Scion of Balance, as he told Raziel in Avernus:


No. Mortanius also said he wanted to protect the Heart of Darkness from the Hylden, and Raziel whom he mistook for the Hylden Champion, just as many do.

Check and mate, means the Hylden could not return to Nosgoth because Kain also guarded the Heart of Darkness with his life. And thus the Hylden could not directly kill Kain, to retrieve it, since they needed the Balance Guardian dead to return to Nosgoth, first.

This is why the Hylden were forced to deceive Raziel, who was feisty enough to be a match for Kain. Throwing Kain out of Nosgoth meant the weakening of the pillars, and the Binding was even more fragile, as the Hylden rushed out of the demon plane in several locations at once.

The Hylden needed the Mass, operated by Janos's blood alone, as an Ancient, to take over Nosgoth the easiest. Kain's blood was not of an ancient, just his heart was. And his heart returned to Janos was the lure they used to force Raziel to attempt to kill Kain. Which he never did, as he failed to use the Soul Reaver properly. He just stole the heart from Kain's chest, that's it. Kain was still a vampire, in the rest of his body, and did not need the heart of darkness in him to remain a vampire, as his undeath already assured his survival. Just like Janos survived the loss of his heart, for awhile as he spoke to Raziel, with his chest all torn open.




As I stated before, that is because he carries the curse in his soul. Mortanius only used the heart of darkness because it was reputed to restore vampiric "un-life". But since Mortanius was not a vampire himself, he had to use necromancy to resurrect Kain as a vampire.

Sure, I will not dispute however Mortanius revived Kain, as this is of little importance here.


Firstly, Kain doesn't need the heart of darkness to create a vampire as he already carries the curse in his soul and could thereby pass it on by sharing a portion of it with the corpse. This is elaborated on by Amy Hennig, leading writer and director of SR1, SR2, and Defiance:

Whichever way Kain sires vampires, is irrelevant. By that logic Vorador can sire the most vampires, as he was originally "gifted" by the Ancients, being the first embraced human, thus has the purest form of the vampiric gift.

Again, this is fully irrelevant here, to my original question.



I'm sorry that you feel that way. However as your answers are purely theoretical, I find your seriousness wanting as well.

Find whatever you wish, but it is no different than what you sought. You can only find what you were ready to seek. And nothing more. If you find no seriousness, perhaps you are not searching well enough.


Raziel was never possessed by the Unspoken, Mortanius and Janos are the only characters to have ever been possessed by the Unspoken a.k.a. the Hylden Lord. Because Turel was being possessed by multiple Hylden at the same time and for so long, when Raziel finally killed him, the taint of the Hylden was still very strong within his soul. And it was this tainted soul that Raziel absorbed, which in turn influenced his judgement in the battle with Kain. Raziel himself admits this after he "kills" Kain:

In Avernus he was, right after the Unspoken possess Mortanius and Turel, to speak through them to Raziel, Raziel devours Turel's green soul, becoming weak to their power himself. Then he later admits that the "madness of that place" drove him wild and uncontrolled. Even as he argues with Kain, his eyes begin to glow green, until he even attacks Kain directly. Those green, green eyes cannot lie, little one.


The blood of the Ancients has nothing to do with the Binding. The pillars, its guardians, and the guardianship in general are the only things connected to the Binding. The Hylden Lord only needed Jano's blood to power the Mass, as we find out in BO2.

The Ancients created the Binding. Of course their blood has everything to do with it. That's why Janos survived. He was guardian of the Reaver, the eleventh secret guardian, that had to aid Raziel in finding the Soul Forge to save Nosgoth, by restoring the Scion of Balance to his normal self.

Janos was the original guardian of the Reaver. The only guardian of the Reaver. The only Ancient who survived, from the original 11 guardians. He had much more to do with the Binding, than you realise. He knew when "a dier omen" appeared on the skies near the Pillar, he sensed the Binding much more than anyone else in Nosgoth was able to. Again, review Defiance's cutscenes carefully, to understand exactly what Janos was saying to Raziel, after his ressurection.

They also needed Janos as a prisoner, to no longer be a proper Reaver Guardian. So the Hylden champion could steal the Reaver itself from the vampires and ancients. Which happens.


Again, neither the blood of the Ancients nor the HoD have anything to do with the Binding or the creation of portals. The Binding was simply so weakened at that point that when Raziel TK'd Kain, the force was powerful enough to breach dimensions. Also, don't be disrespectful to the other posters because they have a differing opinion from you. This forum is for polite discourse only, please.

I am not disrespectful to "other posters". I am disrespectful of illogical comments, which do not find their place in the actual LoK series. Watching the cutscenes, and having played the games first, I see most of what you say is fanciful speculation and blindly unrealistic. Do grow up.

Your comments are only worthy of respect, if they speak true. And make any sense, or answer some questions I had asked. Otherwise they are just ranting and offtopic, which you will find, I have very little patience for.

Perhaps Janos's heart had a more deeper effect than previously thought. If it could feed the Mass, keep Janos alive across Nosgoth, and his body undecaying, maybe it was preserving the Binding of Nosgoth, as long as it was beating in the chest of the Scion of Balance. Or was at least, in Kain's possession. As soon as Raziel grabs it, with his green eyes and Turel-like possession, that even Mortanius was afflicted by, this allowed the Hylden and their Avernus centre of cultist power, to weaken the Binding faster. Since Janos was the very last Ancient to live in Nosgoth, and they temporarily held his heart, through Raziel's possessed hands.


By finding "Hylden" in the demon realm, don't you mean demons? Because that is what they are. Now to the portal opening, that was because at the same time Raziel was forging the Spirit Reaver, which in turn summoned all of the Balance guardians, past and present, to the Citadel. Here's an excerpt from a conversation between Ariel and Raziel:

Is that why the demons say to Kain: " You are fair of form, vampire. That will go first". Speaking from their experience, of course, as Hylden who gradually devolved into demons, driving themselves mad and their form equally. Kain asks them "What is this place?". The Hylden reply: "Do you not think of this place all the time, vampire? Are we so forgotten?" These are clearly no mindless demons. They speak English, and recognise that Kain is a vampire, as they know all about the vampires of Nosgoth.

Their bladed arms, that now surge with lightning is another indication. Unlike the horned monsters that puke fire, and say things like "You cannot pass". I believe those are truly demons and not Hylden. I could be wrong, and even the fire demons are devolved Hylden.


As another example, Kain comments on being drawn to the Vampire Citadel:

Yes, he was called there, as the Scion of Balance, I assume. Just as the souls of the previous Balance Guardians were called to Ariel, and she was to the Spirit Forge, when Raziel activates it to forge the Soul Reaver.


Well since Kain wasn't actually dead, then how would it affect anything? Now in SR2, the mercenaries are fighting demons, not Hylden. They are two completely separate races.

Kain, as Balance Guardian has lost hold of the Heart of Darkness. It was now in possession of Raziel and Janos, who were not armed with the Reaver, thus unable to protect the Heart's power from Hylden corruption.
The mercenaries are fighting both the Hylden and the demons, if I recall well. I don't think I ever saw the Hylden working with the mercenaries ... no? Moebius would have ordered his mercs to kill the Hylden as well. That's what he meant by "the Hylden are a small price to pay for Kain's death, they will be dealt with, in time". Just as the vampires had been dealt with, in less than a decade, by "Moebius's cut-throat army of mercenaries", in the words of Vorador himself.

The Hylden have become corrupted, and resemble demons native to the plane of their banishment, than the "fair" whatever they bragged to have been previously to losing the war in Nosgoth. The Hylden Lord also resembles those demons more than the Hylden shown in their basoreliefs, within their secret island slash hideout slash gate from the other side.



The true storyline? What we have been giving you is the true storyline. As dictated to us by the games and the developers. Now please stop with this disrespectful language.

Somehow I doubt that is the true storyline. Or am I not even allowed to doubt your words, as you provide little proof as coverage? You would have made the Oracle and Moebius, so very proud, I'm certain ...... facts before fabulations. Now, present your facts, or spare me the fabulations.



Raziel is both champions period. Amy Hennig confirmed it in her interviews. It is fact.

Raziel was only mislead by the Hylden Champion who was still sealed beyond the Binding, in the Demon dimension. Raziel could have chosen, yes Chosen, to aid either parties, as he had true free will. He was misguided into aiding the Hylden Champion, who now enters the world and captures Janos Audron.

Again, Raziel cannot be the Hylden Champion. The Hylden General fulfills that prophecy four centuries later, when he defeats Kain, fighting him with a great sword that went ablaze with deadly lightning. His eyes were flaming as well, glowing green. His back was shaped like massive horns from his Sarafan armour, exactly as the Hylden wings shown on the back of the Hylden Champion, in those murals authored by the vampires themselves. Look at their backs, if you truly are unable to read my argument, just use your eyes instead. Then try to deny they have the same mark on their backs, the hooked hylden wings, that appear on armor form instead, since the Hylden General has to mask his demon nature to the Sarafan and most of Nosgoth.



I have to ask this. Did you play BO1? Because close to the end of the game, after Kain returns to the present, you see a cutscene where Vorador is decapitated. As in killed.

No, I never played Blood Omen 1. It looks very old in graphics. If it remade with graphics like SR2 or BO2 or Defiance, I shall definately play it, along with SR1.
Vorador was "meant to be executed", in that timeline. That Kain changed when he killed Moebius, at last, preventing his ressurection forever. This ensured Vorador would not be killed, and was released from capture. His mercenaries died very shortly after, and four centuries later the Hylden's revived Sarafan order, are the Only vampire killing force in Nosgoth. So Moebius clearly failed, and died before he managed to execute Vorador, the prisoner.


Moebius is still killed by BO1 Kain. That event never has changed. The Moebius you see at the Citadel was after he had been resurrected by the EG. So no, he doesn't fail to complete the execution. If you need proof of this, here is a minor excerpt from a conversation between Kain and Moebius:

Yes, I know Moebius can be killed, and ressurected countless times in his old body, by the Oracle. As long as his soul isn't reaved by Raziel, who would then return Moebius to being an average lost soul.

Kain refers to how he saved Vorador's life, most likely.



Did you watch a different scene than I did? Because I think it went something like this:
What? It's impossible to answer you, because half of what you posted doesn't appear in quotes. Just the two dots, then your lines are completely gone. Fix that, otherwise I don't know what you're on about.



You see at the end? Why would Moebius tell Raziel that he had an execution to see to, if it was at some much later date? And when he says he had an execution see to, that means he was going straight from there to the execution.
Because Vorador was hard to kill, even when captured. You think he just sat there, waiting to be beheaded? This isn't Edward Cullen you're talking about. Vorador was a very powerful vampire, who was very skilled at avenging Janos, by thinning the Circle down. He even took down Malek. Only after the centuries he had been losing his faith in vampires and Janos and his ancient prophecies, and his battle skills were begining to weaken. Losing hope does that to you, and Vorador was definately losing hope.




Again, play BO1.
I cannot. It looks very ancient, and hard to even see well. I will after it's remade with newer graphic like SR2, BO2 or Defiance. I thank you.



This is the scene right after Raziel had resurrected Janos:
Yes, Raziel lied to Janos, telling him Vorador was "dead", only because Raziel was desperate and wanted answers. He wasn't gonna tell him they should go on a quick quest to rescue Vorador from his execution, as he feared the Reaver too much, then. And suspected Vorador and Janos might be his enemies and not allies. He had to lie to Janos, and say Vorador had died, when moments earlier he heard Moebius say he was captured and not executed yet. Thus, clearly still alive just seconds before he revived Janos. Raziel got careless and impersonal here. He even forces Janos's hand by saying "I want answers. The world can end now, for all I care". That's why he lied about Vorador, to lower Janos's expectations of him, I guess.


There is only one Kain and one Kain only. There is no younger Kain that "fades" into an Elder Kain. The series starts out with a young Kain in BO1, who then ages into the older Kain we see from SR1, SR2, and Defiance. The Kain we see in BO2 is still the Kain we know throughout the entire series, only younger. There is no evidence to suggest that Younger Kain has a separate destiny than Elder Kain. They are one and the same person.

Without that younger Kain to live out his early life, and then later dissapear from Nosgoth into the time portals from the Chronoplast chamber, there is no "older Kain". Older Kain appears only because the younger Kain dissapears from Nosgoth, through the same time portals that older Kain appears there in the first place.

The younger Kain has to exist, for the older Kain to do what he does here, in the past. Since that younger Kain has to later travel back in time, for this older Kain to occur. I see your are still battling with the finer aspects of temporal paradoxes. It is fine, not everyone can understand such complexity. Most never do.



Your misinterpreting the vampire prophecies. Kain is neither Redeemer or Destroyer as he is neither the Vampire or Hylden champions. Kain is the Scion of Balance and nothing else. Raziel, on the other hand, is both in either regard. As the only being in LOK possessing free will, he can choose to be both. As the Hylden champion, he battles and "kills" Kain, the Scion of Balance, while as the Vampire champion, he purifies Kain's spirit, both redeeming himself while paradoxically destroying himself at the same time when he is absorbed by the Reaver.
Raziel never killed Kain. Thus he was never the "Hylden Champion". The actual Hylden Champion kills Kain four centuries later in BO2, defeating his armies, casting him down into a dark pit. Then Vorador and Umah retrieve Kain, finding there was "but the smallest thread of life in him". They fed him, nursed him back to life. He was a dead vampire, just like those wraiths who were stuck in their dead bodies. But unable to move on the other side, even. So total lethargy, even worse than that of Janos absent Heart of Darkness.

Raziel doesn't redeem himself. He heals the Scion of Balance, as guided by healed Ariel with new insight. He even admits the Oracle was his master, so he served neither the vampires, nor the Hylden. He was only forced to temporarily fight the Oracle, that most others in Nosgoth did not even know about. He only had free will, as long as he wasn't imprisoned in the Underworld by the Oracle's wretched tentacles.

Kain is the vampire champion, that kills the Hylden general, and most of the Hylden who came back after they return to Nosgoth. Raziel was no longer even a vampire, when he did those things, like revive Janos, kill the other vampires, defeat Kain, etc.

Raziel was manipulated by the Hylden. He was never their champion, just their greatest pawn, that they had the highest difficulty to control, since he had been "introduced by Kain", when he was cast into the Abyss. Kain admits that at Defiance, after he returns to the vampire citadel, being compelled by his instinct not to linger at Avernus.

He says, he sought to introduce his own player in the game, in his play against Fate. That is Raziel, created by Kain, so to speak. Even though it had been the other way around, Raziel having first allowed for Kain to become a vampire, when he removed the Heart of Darkness from Janos.

Raziel never killed Kain. He simply banished him into the Hylden's hell where those demons were, through a gate opened up in Avernus by the Hylden. And tore his heart out to allow the Hylden to become stronger, since the Scion of Balance had just been removed from Nosgoth, with his heart no longer in place, that held the blood of an Ancient.



Agreed. I think I remember them admitting to a few teeny tiny mistakes somewhere in their storylines as well. Something about Mobieus or Vorador in a time where they shouldn't have logically been. I honestly can't remember.

But with how intricate and complex the story and history is, and especially with how high-demand and intense game-design is (not to mention how well-made the LOK games are in the face of that) I wouldn't complain.

These people are expert writers, not omnipotent gods who are always flawless in every single calculation of potential past, present and future.

LOK has one of the richest and most epic stories of any game series ever created. Any mistakes are minor and probably only noticeable to those who play through each game many many times and over-analyze them...Admittedly I do still replay each LOK game over and over, only because I love them so much. They seem to get better every time. If they released an HD collection I'd certainly pre-order it.

I am beset by lies on all sides !! Clearly there are dark forces at work, striving to deceive me.

The_Hylden
22nd Dec 2011, 22:19
I am beset by lies on all sides !! Clearly there are dark forces at work, striving to deceive me.

And clearly, you need to learn to use the "Edit" function :) If your posts are too long for the forum and it's forcing you to post again, then I urge you to consider making your points quicker.

Allegory, doubting official sources and long-standing members, is not a good way to play nice on the boards. It's coming off as trolling. I can't even begin right now to address all of the assumptions you've made and are, apparently, sticking to about the series right now.

Two points that I don't think have been answered fully, at least:

The creators at Crystal Dynamics were answering questions for those of us who have played the games. They were not spoiling anything, but were sincerely clarifying things. Their word is law regarding their own universe of LoK.

In their interviews, they admit that the scene with Moebius meeting Raziel was needed, thematically, but that it was ultimately a mistake, as by this time Vorador had already been executed and Kain and Moebius had fought. However, Amy Hennig made clear, all events that happened in Blood Omen 1, including Vorador's execution, still happen the same exact way.


In addition to this, it's been unearthed that within the planned sequel to Defiance, that never made it past the drawing board, Vorador's execution and subsequent resurrection, was going to be explained (who raided him again, etc.)

Now, I am sure if you wish, the other members here will be happy to debate the facts with you, but if you're unwilling to accept their answers, well ... there's not going to be much point to it all.

Allegory
22nd Dec 2011, 22:54
Maybe they wish to preserve the sense of mystery, and pristine adventure, in your hearts. They appear to "not know" or make mistakes, only to not take themselves too seriously.

In reality their intentions could be much more serious than you know. They could be planning everything, step by step. Much more carefully than simple gamers can ever hope to understand.

If there is no ambition to understand everything the creators brought to the game, how can you be sure you can understand the answers they give you? Maybe you are all misinterpreting their answers as well.

After all, if Janos Audron himself misread all the signs, how are any of you better than Janos Audron? Are you all flawless and unable to make mistakes, sometimes? Or do you all think to be perfect like the Oracle, or Moebius think to be?

Even Kain wonders if he had made mistakes, and missed his change at destiny, because of arrogance. He even admits his wreckless actions have led him down his path there. He has enough nobility to question himself.

Apparently none of you questions yourselves. You take your own answers "for granted", but fail to further research them, because it's easier to just assume you were right.

I am dissappoint.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To make a short summary of your ........ conclusions. Vorador dies, is somehow "mysteriously" brought back by Kain. Raziel is thus guilty of omniscience, having known Vorador would be dead but seconds later, when he revived Janos and tells him Vorador is dead.

Thus, by your general logic, Raziel is omniscient. This goes against everything we know about these games. Raziel is the most unaware, kept in the dark, tossed about piece, in the vicious games of others. Yet he "somehow mysteriously" knows when Vorador is dead, as if telepathically connected. To let Janos down, moments after ressurecting him.

Second assumption. Old Kain goes for an early retirement. Lets his younger self do all the dishes, like conquer Nosgoth. As if "wars are for the young and strong of heart", Kain gracefully lets his baby self take over Nosgoth, preventing him from dissapearing into time portals from Nosgoth, and denying his very existance as "old Kain", since he stopped himself from ever travelling back in time, to change his fate.

Thus Old Kain ceases to exist altogether, because he forced his younger self to change his fate, and conquer Nosgoth properly, save the world from the Hylden, and kill himself in the end. Thus chosing the same fate as Raziel, of self sacrifice, only doing it with greater difficulty, killing himself in a very very ardous process of time travel and setting his younger self up for "Great Success" !!

Somehow this doesn't match Kain's MO, you'll forgive me if I have more faith in Kain's character than any of you. Kain allows his younger self to continue in his exact footsteps, to let himself arrive where he is now. His younger self dissappears in that alternate history which was changed at the moment Kain kills Moebius, kills Raziel, and only the "old Kain" remains in Nosgoth, to take up his ambition of ruling Nosgoth. In other words, taking up from where his younger self left off, before he dissappeared in the alternate timeline he just struggled so hard to change.

Now, the third assumption. Kain later evolves into his "older form" because he drinks the blood of the Hylden Seer who is the Witch in the Canions. And from the cold elder blood of the Builder, allowing him to kill the Mass beneath Nosgoth.

Somehow I believe the Mass (a giant formless beast grown beneath the soil of Nosgoth, is one and the same with the Oracle, who was debilitated by Kain, crippled when he defeated him, and stopping him from reaving any further souls of the dead. With no more leeching from Nosgoth, the Oracle returns to his idiotic original self as the mindless Mass created by the Hylden with power to kill anything on Nosgoth's surface that isn't Hylden.

Thus the Oracle has indeed "burrowed deep", and Kain still found it, as the Mass, aided of course by Janos Audron, and blood of the Builder.

Thus Kain somehow remains unchanged by all his glorious descent into the past, throughout Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance.

He doesn't even get the chance to change his original appearance from cursed, scarred creature, to a normal looking vampire as he is in Blood Omen 2. After he spent all that time restoring Nosgoth, and finding the ultimate Spirit Reaver, he still looks like he crawled from the Underworld, after an intense death match against Raziel.

I'd rather believe Kain succeeded in his quest, and restored his true appearance, as he was meant to be as Scion of Balance. And that scary gold skinned monster he looks to be in Defiance, Blood Omen 1, Soul Reaver 1 & 2, is nothing more than his corrupted form, that the Pillar's corruption warped him into. Just as Raziel was warped into a wraith form by swimming with all the unfriendly sharks in the Abyss.

True, Raziel wasn't restored to a more vampire or normal looking self, when he forges his Soul Reaver with Ariel's Spirit. But he had barely held it for mere moments, until Moebius is dispatched by Kain.

Kain barely held the Spirit Reaver for how long it took him to dispatch the Oracle into the blind formless creature that would later become "The Mass", and he was already able to teleport. Creating a white glowing light in his arms, that teleported him from the lowered pit of the spirit forge, to the floor of the Vampire Citadel. Imagine how he could have evolved his gifts four centuries of being the purified Scion of Balance.

Enough to restore his true form as a vampire, and look normal again. Like Umah does, or other vampires like Sebastian, for example.

Now, the story is interesting, about what happened between Kain and Sebastian, the traitor. Or Faustus, Marcus and ... did I forget another vampire?

So, you can disagree with me all you wish, The Hylden. But you will find me relentless ....

Aranor
23rd Dec 2011, 01:56
Maybe they wish to preserve the sense of mystery
Maybe they don't too. Maybe is a wide open word for speculation.

Raziel is not omniscient. However he served Kain a thousand years. He heard the tales in detail over and over again. Knowing that Vorador was kill the same day (or day before depending on how time moved while we played) that the pillars fell would be little more than us knowing that "jingle all the way" comes after two lines of "jingle bells" The whole story of blood omen is like religion to the lieutenants. Of his own paths he is witless yes.

Your second assumption is way off. Old Kain does not retire. He stands there filled with renewed hope and Defiance ends. Old Kain can not go and do what the Kain in BO2 did because he already did. Which is what we are telling you is young Kain. They are one in the same, at one point he traveled BACK in time. If he let young Kain survive in a nice little padded cell to ensure he survived while he went and redid everything he did already...he already did those things and survived thus no need to interfere.

Third assumption. Umm where did you get that from? Kain does not evolve because of the seers or the elders blood. He evolves because in nosgoth that is what vampires do. Every unannounced amount of years vampires go through a state of evolution. Hence Vorador being half frog instead of full human with big sharp teeth. This also is kinda sorta why Raziel had wings.

The mass is not the oracle. Moebius is.

Kain VO
I had been betrayed. In my haste, I had not realized it before. That sigil on his forehead. The Oracle of Nosgoth was in fact the Time Streamer Moebius. And I had followed his advice!

Kain never changed from SR1 through Defiance because 1) not much time really passed. 2) He was not purified until the end of Defiance. As for him restoring his "true appearance". Whatever comes after Defiance may or may not reveal that.

Kain was able to teleport when you fought him at the end of SR1 which was turned into a movie in the beginning of SR2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRvBPh7ilJE 2:42 bright light and teleport.

The white skinned Kain you see in Blood Omen 2 is not the same aged Kain you see in Defiance. BO2 happened after BO1

Umah Bloodomen
23rd Dec 2011, 03:59
I am not disrespectful to "other posters". I am disrespectful of illogical comments, which do not find their place in the actual LoK series. Watching the cutscenes, and having played the games first, I see most of what you say is fanciful speculation and blindly unrealistic. Do grow up.

Your comments are only worthy of respect, if they speak true. And make any sense, or answer some questions I had asked. Otherwise they are just ranting and offtopic, which you will find, I have very little patience for.


And I have very little patience for those who elect to blatently disregard my previous warnings to remain constructive when engaging other members. :rolleyes:

Everyone's comments (including yours) are always worthy of respect as outlined in Rule #6 of our TOU (http://forums.eidosgames.com/announcement.php?a=50#rule6) (You know, that document you agreed to adhere to upon registering?) So far, I've seen very little respect making its way into your recent diatribes, and frankly, it's getting old.

With that said, this discussion is closed. When you can learn to respect your fellow members, I may reconsider allowing it another go. Until then, I advise you to take the time to refresh yourself on all aspects of our TOU and approach the Community in a more constructive manner in the future.

Any questions, comments or concerns regarding the closure of this discussion can be directed via Private Channels.

Thanks and happy posting! :)



No, I never played Blood Omen 1. It looks very old in graphics. If it remade with graphics like SR2 or BO2 or Defiance, I shall definately play it, along with SR1.


After re-reading the first aspect I quoted from you in my post, then reading this quoted aspect, I say; :lol: Contradiction ring a bell, anyone? ;)

Allegory
23rd Dec 2011, 15:00
Maybe they don't too. Maybe is a wide open word for speculation.

Raziel is not omniscient. However he served Kain a thousand years. He heard the tales in detail over and over again. Knowing that Vorador was kill the same day (or day before depending on how time moved while we played) that the pillars fell would be little more than us knowing that "jingle all the way" comes after two lines of "jingle bells" The whole story of blood omen is like religion to the lieutenants. Of his own paths he is witless yes.

Your second assumption is way off. Old Kain does not retire. He stands there filled with renewed hope and Defiance ends. Old Kain can not go and do what the Kain in BO2 did because he already did. Which is what we are telling you is young Kain. They are one in the same, at one point he traveled BACK in time. If he let young Kain survive in a nice little padded cell to ensure he survived while he went and redid everything he did already...he already did those things and survived thus no need to interfere.

Third assumption. Umm where did you get that from? Kain does not evolve because of the seers or the elders blood. He evolves because in nosgoth that is what vampires do. Every unannounced amount of years vampires go through a state of evolution. Hence Vorador being half frog instead of full human with big sharp teeth. This also is kinda sorta why Raziel had wings.

The mass is not the oracle. Moebius is.
Quote:
Kain VO
I had been betrayed. In my haste, I had not realized it before. That sigil on his forehead. The Oracle of Nosgoth was in fact the Time Streamer Moebius. And I had followed his advice!
Kain never changed from SR1 through Defiance because 1) not much time really passed. 2) He was not purified until the end of Defiance. As for him restoring his "true appearance". Whatever comes after Defiance may or may not reveal that.

Kain was able to teleport when you fought him at the end of SR1 which was turned into a movie in the beginning of SR2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRvBPh7ilJE 2:42 bright light and teleport.

The white skinned Kain you see in Blood Omen 2 is not the same aged Kain you see in Defiance. BO2 happened after BO1
Have you ever considered you and everyone else has asked the makers .... all the wrong possible questions? Thus making it impossible for them to give you a decent answer, and having to improvise, not to spoil the surprise for all.

Personally, I see their answers confirm my own beliefs, and have absolutely nothing in common with yours. For this I thank you, for you have just humiliated yourself.

But I forgive.

There was hardly any time left to kill Vorador. Moebius barely got back to the stronghold, running from Raziel, and is called by the Oracle beneath the Vampire Citadel. He doesn't tell the Oracle, finally all vampires in Nosgoth are dead. He says the Hylden are a temporary inconvenience. Temporary to Moebius means over a century that takes his lot to finish the Hylden and their demons off. So if even a century is not very long to Moebius the Time Streamer, who is also immortal thanks to countless ressurections, I doubt he would be in some hurry to execute Vorador the same day. If he were, he'd have killed him in his lair, when he captured him, with all his army present. Or something.

Moebius had other very important plans, than dealing with Vorador's execution. That's why Vorador was only captured, by his lot. He was dealing with crucial matters in his game, such as saving the world from Hylden, by ordering his mercenaries to fight. Vorador should be safely locked away in some cage somewhere in their Stronghold. Since those demons and Hylden flooded Nosgoth immediately after Raziel tossed Kain in the demon plane, through that portal Kain also reentered Nosgoth through.

So Moebius and his cut-throats would be well busy dealing with enemies and fighting off the invaders. And had no time to execute Vorador properly, despite your wildest fantasies.

Raziel saw Vorador's head on Moebius's statue a century ahead from when he refused to kill Kain, so he assumed that Vorador would always die, which is why he also assumed Moebius had killed Vorador, "or has he eluded you", he asks for certainty. And he finds out Vorador was barely captured, and far from executed. He didn't know that Kain without the heart of darkness could kill Moebius without care of staff, and thus disband the same mercenaries that will fail to kill Vorador. Raziel also didn't know about or foresee all the events in Blood Omen 2, so he just assumed based on what he had seen in different timelines, that Vorador would always die. Just like he knew Janos was dead, except if he found him before he died.

Older Kain looks like the Seer / Witch from the Canions. Who is a Hylden herself, that owned Vorador for a favour.

Since in the original timeline Janos remained dead, there was no captive Beast to feed the Mass, or tell Kain about the Builder's elder blood and how to kill the Mass, who is the Oracle that entrapped Raziel in the Underworld, as a wraith. Thus both the Mass survived, as the Oracle from SR1, SR2 and Defiance, and Janos was still dead.

Only because Raziel revives Janos in Defiance, does he allow for Janos to be trapped by the Sarafan Lord four centuries later, then reveal how to kill the Mass using the Builder's blood he just drank in the Eternal Prison. Raziel ensured Kain could finally kill the Mass or the "true enemy" that Kain adviced to "burrow deep" while the Vampire Citadel collapsed. Since he revived and spared Janos, keeping that precious information for Kain, whom Janos helped as he could. Even helped him retrieve the Reaver from the Hylden Champion, in the lost city the Hylden were encamped it, near the gate they entered Nosgoth from the demon plane.

This is what changed in Blood Omen 2, from Raziel's early sacrifice centuries before, when the pillars fell. Janos survived. Kain kills the Oracle properly, with blood of the Builder, found with Janos's help in the Eternal Prison. He also saves Vorador, by killing Moebius for good, who remains a mere lifeless statue in the Eternal Prison, for Kain to topple on Magnus the lunatic.

And with both Vorador and Janos alive, saved by Raziel directly or indirectly, Kain has the army he needed to conquer Nosgoth. Reviving any of the six Sarafan templars was useless now, as he had proper vampires, though disloyal of course, to conquer Nosgoth with. And he also had Vorador that could sire new vampires in Nosgoth. Thus saving the vampire race itself, ensuring Kain isn't the only vampire left as he was in Soul Reaver 1. Which changed, of course, as Kain had intented for it to.

This ensured Kain fights and defeats the Hylden Champion, in Blood Omen 2, barely 400 years after the pillars fell. Which is very soon compared to the over 1600 years he didn't even manage to find the Sarafan Lord across Nosgoth, to kill him.

So Kain fulfills his prophecy finally, since Raziel "restored what had been set asunder" when Kain was born. Allowing Kain to be restored hence forth, weilding the Spirit Reaver. Four centuries after Raziel sacrifices himself, after he allowed for Vorador and Janos to both survive, and aid Kain in defeating the Sarafan Lord and the Oracle or Mass beneath Nosgoth, respectively.

That's why Raziel was a redeemer, he ensured the Ancient Vampire and the First Vampire, Vorador the sired human, survived in the new timeline of BO2, created by Kain, using his player Raziel, that finally aided him greatly, and restored his fate.

Without Vorador, Kain had no proper army of vampires to save Nosgoth, just his six monstrous demons, that were either wraiths created by necromancy or down right monsters. To ensure that never happened again, Kain being unable to properly sire vampires, just decaying terrifying monsters, he was aided by Vorador. Whom he now knew to save in Defiance, since Vorador's vampires were normal and not corrupted pieces of writhing flesh.

Also with Janos who was crucial in aiding Kain kill the Mass, which had posed as the Vampire's Oracle, long before Moebius was even born, or became a time streamer.

So Moebius cannot be the "Oracle" of the Vampires. He was nothing more than a sootsayer, which was a guise, he was a sneaky time streamer instead. The only true Oracle was the Mass, created by the Hylden, that began to deceive the Vampires, to feed on their souls after death.

Since the Oracle you criminally call "Elder God", could be killed by the blood of Hylden, just as Kain does in Blood Omen 2, the Restored timeline made possible by his time travels and Raziel's sacrifice.

The Oracle was fed by Ancient Blood. Just as Janos was feeding the Mass beneath Nosgoth, with his Ancient blood, that made it stronger. So the Oracle also fed on the blood of the ancients, who killed themselves, or died, and not just the souls of the dead. That's why it sought to keep it's Ancient flock mortal.

It could have been easily killed by a few drops of Hylden blood, therefore it advised as the "Oracle", the Ancients to banish the Hylden completely, and raise the pillars. This ensured the Mass, or Oracle of the vampires survived as long as there was no Hylden blood in Nosgoth. In Kain's rewritten "storyline", he kills the Mass using blood of the Hylden, from the Builder itself. Thus stops Raziel's enslavement in the Abyss, by the Oracle, who no longer lives within the earth core of Nosgoth, centuries later when Raziel would be cast into the Lake of Dead. So Raziel no longer needed to become a vampire. He was just another soul, anonymous.

As the Oracle died, Moebius remained also a simple time streamer, lives only once, dies, remains a stupid statue that falls on the Magnus, helping Kain take his dark gift of immolation, use it against the Hylden Champion in the Lost City.

As Moebius was nothing more than a short human lifespan, who lives and dies only once, in Blood Omen 2's rewritten history, there is no vampire crusade anymore. The Sarafan Order die as well, as nobodies of history. A forgotten order that only the Sarafan Lord, Hylden Champion remembers. And revives, as nothing else in Nosgoth has the proper motivation or reason to destroy the Vampires anymore. Perhaps William the Just even lived and died as "The Just", because Moebius died and was no longer able to corrupt him, by traveling back in time to change him into the Nemesis.

Only the changes created by Raziel remain. Despite Raziel unwriting his own history. That's the paradox, he destroys all false timelines created around him, but keeps the changes he made, such as the death and revival of Janos, the salvaging of Vorador by ripping Kain's heart out, Kain later saves Vorador to preserve the vampire race in Nosgoth. Saving Nosgoth from the monsters his sarafan puppets would plague it with.

And also Kain kills the Mass (who no longer becomes the Oracle), with blood of the Hylden, guided by Janos, of course. Also saved by Raziel. Who's unique paradox can defy the normal flow of history, even he ceases to exist in his later form. And dies as a normal Sarafan who killed Janos.

Moebius was never the Oracle of the Ancients. The pillars were not even raised yet, and only Ancients were chosen as the 11 guardians when they were. Moebius was not even born. The only Oracle was the Mass beneath Nosgoth, feeding on blood of the dead ancients and leaching their souls, growing ever stronger, for the purpose the Hylden had created it for.

Even the Builder and others admit "The Mass is eternal. It doesn't die". Meaning it is ageless, "now and always" just like the Oracle bragged to Raziel. It's only weakness was Hylden blood, which was enough to kill it forever. Despite being ageless, eternal and growing all underneath the soil of Nosgoth, just like the Oracle had it's eyes and tentacles in every deep cave or mountain or citadel in Nosgoth.

That's why the Mass is revealed to be "an ancient weapon, very deadly to all but the Hylden, created by them during their war with the Ancients, to ensure their victory". When Kain kills the Mass that served as the Ancient's treacherous Oracle, and banisher of the Hylden, he fulfilled the other prophecy. That besides defeating the Hylden Champion (Sarafan Lord), he destroys the other danger created by the Hylden. The writing mass beneath Nosgoth's ground, that was the Oracle itself, enough to deceive the Ancients into killing themselves after they were cursed with undeath.

Kain does change. He no longer has Vorador's gold earing on his earlobe. Because he saved Vorador, and no longer took the ring as a token from his corpse. Since Vorador was prisoner, not victim of execution.

"Vorador was not important" ?!??!?! Vorador was the first human gifted with vampirism by Janos Audron. Survival of the Vampires was essential, to save Nosgoth from the Hylden, and only Vorador could sire vampires properly, from humans. Kain only made hideous monsters that were the death and plague of a decripit Nosgoth that fortunately, never happened.

Surely Janos knew this, even if Raziel did not. Kain understood this also, by experience. He no longer had Vorador's earring in Blood Omen 2, because he had saved his life, and not found his corpse later after he died.

This is all very simple and reasonable. Why can't you respect my opinion? Are you a violator of the 6th rule, that Umah just named in a paralel thread? Careful now. Disrespecting my beliefs here, can get you all banned.