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Jvrol
10th Nov 2011, 01:47
Well since Icarus Effect featured a female protagonist (although it was a prequel novel) I wonder if there's going to be a future game starring one? Since protagonists can't be male all the time.

Romeo
10th Nov 2011, 02:18
I wouldn't mind that in the least. For all the crap people give it, Invisible War allowed one to be female. Still, quite early to be thinking of the next game, non?

itsonyourhead
10th Nov 2011, 03:35
I'd like to see a female lead. Would be interesting. But I'd like to see a sole female lead -- not a gender choice.

FreedomForever
10th Nov 2011, 08:27
Make it like deus ex...you were able to chose your skin color, just add choosing gender.

s.pasanen
10th Nov 2011, 08:50
If you make a deus ex game wich allows you to choose between male and female character then the choice will be kind of shallow. But if you make two different kind of charters (male and female) wich play in (totally) different way then it might work, but does the development team have the time or the money to create multiple different paths for two different charters? I dont think so. So if theres going to be choice between male and female charters, it would be ultimately shallow. Also if a game has only female as a playable character, then thats enough for me to not to purchase the game in the first place, not that I would hate women or anything like that but I just really dont want to be a woman in my games. No offense to anybody but thats how I feel.

Romeo
10th Nov 2011, 09:33
If you make a deus ex game wich allows you to choose between male and female character then the choice will be kind of shallow. But if you make two different kind of charters (male and female) wich play in (totally) different way then it might work, but does the development team have the time or the money to create multiple different paths for two different charters? I dont think so. So if theres going to be choice between male and female charters, it would be ultimately shallow. Also if a game has only female as a playable character, then thats enough for me to not to purchase the game in the first place, not that I would hate women or anything like that but I just really dont want to be a woman in my games. No offense to anybody but thats how I feel.
Why make it totally different? Human Revolution was the only game to feature a romantic sub-plot, so that might not be a consideration. And everything else is pretty much the same. My girlfriend shoots about as well as I do (Maybe a bit better with a .22 Rimfires, a little worse with .45ACPs), and approaches combat in the same why. I see absolutely zero reason why a man with military training and a woman with the exact same training should be different experiences at all.

s.pasanen
10th Nov 2011, 11:15
Why make it totally different? Human Revolution was the only game to feature a romantic sub-plot, so that might not be a consideration. And everything else is pretty much the same. My girlfriend shoots about as well as I do (Maybe a bit better with a .22 Rimfires, a little worse with .45ACPs), and approaches combat in the same why. I see absolutely zero reason why a man with military training and a woman with the exact same training should be different experiences at all.

I think you got me wrong, I didnt say that male and female characters coudnt have the same training and that in a game they couldnt play the same way, I just said that this way the difference between these characters would be very shallow one. But of course if we are speaking realistically, then it is more believable to have male charter shooting and taking down enemies with single punch n' stuff than a female one, thats just how the world works. I do belive that men and women are different, in a good way.

Jordasm
10th Nov 2011, 12:20
I'd be cool with it.
But it'd probably turn alot of kiddies off it "EW YOU CAN PLAY AS A GIRL I WANNA PLAY AS A BALD HEADED SPACE MARINE"

AlexOfSpades
10th Nov 2011, 13:22
As long as she fits the role, i dont mind.

She just needs the trenchcoat. And the sunglasses.

handgriffsorgfaeltig
10th Nov 2011, 13:46
As long as she fits the role, i dont mind.

She just needs the trenchcoat. And the sunglasses.

well...that's easy...

http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/6869/katebeckinsaleinselenec.jpg

TrickyVein
10th Nov 2011, 14:00
A wise man once said the only things you have to pay attention to are sex and death.

Give the option to play as either (or more?) gender and you lose the sexual tension between protagonist and NPC. This happened in Invisible War - Alex Denton had no more personality than a bag of hammers.

I would love to introduce a fem-protagonist to the Deus Ex series. But I think it should be either or if it's going to be successful. That or entirely different reactions and conversations would have to be written for everyone depending on the protagonist's gender, and not just superficially. Stuff like that is always promised but never delivered.

ilweran
10th Nov 2011, 14:24
I think a female main character would be nice, I always played as female Alex in IW - though that was partly because she was the more bearable generally of the two, male Alex is an unlikeable ****, but it was also nice to have the opportunity, as a female gamer. Augmentations level the playing field physically, so the whole 'but women are physically weaker than men so it won't be believable' thing wouldn't apply. I'm sure it won't happen though.

Olgerth Heidern
10th Nov 2011, 15:55
I wouldn't play DX if the option to be female would be forced.

It's an interesting option for a second/third playthough, but not for the "main campaign".

ilweran
10th Nov 2011, 16:27
I'm assuming the people who don't want to play a female character are mostly male - and I'm wondering why they don't want to play a game with a woman as the main character.

I get that people generally would prefer to play as someone the same gender as themselves, I do if given the choice, but obviously being forced to play as a male character doesn't mean I won't play a game. If it did I wouldn't have played Deus Ex. Is it just that as a woman I have very little choice, so I just have to put up with it if I want to be a gamer?

EricaLeeV
10th Nov 2011, 16:31
I wouldn't play DX if the option to be female would be forced.

It's an interesting option for a second/third playthough, but not for the "main campaign".

....Huh? Why? Is it that odd to play someone who's not a male?


Of course, if we had a FemAJ option and the said option could be shirtless during takedowns, we'd already have a 25-page discussion on how the modern videogame industry panders to slavering 13-year-olds and demeans women...

Ahhem...


Ah....nevermind I'm sensing a trend here.




I'm assuming the people who don't want to play a female character are mostly male - and I'm wondering why they don't want to play a game with a woman as the main character.

I get that people generally would prefer to play as someone the same gender as themselves, I do if given the choice, but obviously being forced to play as a male character doesn't mean I won't play a game. If it did I wouldn't have played Deus Ex. Is it just that as a woman I have very little choice, so I just have to put up with it if I want to be a gamer?

Yes, I agree. As a female I have to play males in video games and see them as the stars in faaaar more entertainment features than females. On the whole males are portrayed much better too (gee I wonder why), so in a way I worry if EM were to try a female protagonist thing. Most video game developers can't seem to portray females correctly.

Not that I mind playing males all the time, I'm so used to it, it doesn't bother me at all. Males are just people like me so why should I think of them any differently? :p

ilweran
10th Nov 2011, 16:52
Yes, I agree. As a female I have to play males in video games and see them as the stars in faaaar more entertainment features than females. On the whole males are portrayed much better too (gee I wonder why), so in a way I worry if EM were to try a female protagonist thing. Most video game developers can't seem to portray females correctly.

I guess I don't mind too much if the man is nice to look at. And occasionally loses some clothing. Just to be fair you understand... ;)

Far too often female characters, NPC or otherwise are busty and underdressed - Morrigan in Dragon Age, I actually liked her, but that outfit? In a swamp? Lara Croft, in shorts and vest while climbing icy mountains? Or going back a bit here, but Rynn in Draken - why didn't her armour cover her stomach (or her mouth move when she spoke :D)?

EricaLeeV
10th Nov 2011, 17:21
I guess I don't mind too much if the man is nice to look at. And occasionally loses some clothing. Just to be fair you understand... ;)

Far too often female characters, NPC or otherwise are busty and underdressed - Morrigan in Dragon Age, I actually liked her, but that outfit? In a swamp? Lara Croft, in shorts and vest while climbing icy mountains? Or going back a bit here, but Rynn in Draken - why didn't her armour cover her stomach (or her mouth move when she spoke :D)?

Exactly. The way I see it is games are pandering to a certain...eh hum...audience with those kind of things. Thank goodness it seems to be slowly moving away from that as video games continue to diversify.

Draken! XD Ha that game brings back memories.


I'm also reminded of these two things...Click the thumbnails for actual size.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2158/tonynosm.png (http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1521/tonyno.png)

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5483/asscreedprobsm.png (http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/6059/asscreedprob3.png)

Edit: There fixed. C:

AlexOfSpades
10th Nov 2011, 17:28
Click image to enlarge? What about click image to shrink it?

Anyways, yeah Handgriff, pretty much nailed it.

EricaLeeV
10th Nov 2011, 17:32
Click image to enlarge? What about click image to shrink it?

Anyways, yeah Handgriff, pretty much nailed it.

Like I said thumbnail option doesn't work on these. :/


I also really don't like the idea of someone in the next Deus Ex AGAIN having sunglasses and a black coat. I mean in DXHR Jensen was meant to mirror JC both as foreshadowing and as a sort of tribute to the previous DX. If they do it again, to me it'll come off as cheesy and unoriginal. It barely worked in DXHR as it is.

Romeo
10th Nov 2011, 18:19
I think you got me wrong, I didnt say that male and female characters coudnt have the same training and that in a game they couldnt play the same way, I just said that this way the difference between these characters would be very shallow one. But of course if we are speaking realistically, then it is more believable to have male charter shooting and taking down enemies with single punch n' stuff than a female one, thats just how the world works. I do belive that men and women are different, in a good way.
In a normal world, I'd agree with you. But we're talking about augmented individuals. Why would Jensen's robot arms be any more powerful than Lady Jensen's robot arms? Same product. And as I said, when it comes to shooting, it all comes down to experience, not gender.

A wise man once said the only things you have to pay attention to are sex and death.

Give the option to play as either (or more?) gender and you lose the sexual tension between protagonist and NPC. This happened in Invisible War - Alex Denton had no more personality than a bag of hammers.

I would love to introduce a fem-protagonist to the Deus Ex series. But I think it should be either or if it's going to be successful. That or entirely different reactions and conversations would have to be written for everyone depending on the protagonist's gender, and not just superficially. Stuff like that is always promised but never delivered.
Aye, but neither did JC. And he was a male-only option.

....Huh? Why? Is it that odd to play someone who's not a male?




Ah....nevermind I'm sensing a trend here.





Yes, I agree. As a female I have to play males in video games and see them as the stars in faaaar more entertainment features than females. On the whole males are portrayed much better too (gee I wonder why), so in a way I worry if EM were to try a female protagonist thing. Most video game developers can't seem to portray females correctly.

Not that I mind playing males all the time, I'm so used to it, it doesn't bother me at all. Males are just people like me so why should I think of them any differently? :p
I know what you mean though. By nature, one will always associate best by a character that suits them best - and gender is a large factor in that. When I play Dragon Age (And it's sequel) first thing I did was adjust everything to make the character look like me. Obviously, if a gender was forced, you're always going to feel like you're just playing a character.

As for the "males always being better", CLEARLY you haven't had the good fortune of meeting Aria T'Loak in Mass Effect 2. Best character in the entire series - Female. :D

EricaLeeV
10th Nov 2011, 18:31
I know what you mean though. By nature, one will always associate best by a character that suits them best - and gender is a large factor in that. When I play Dragon Age (And it's sequel) first thing I did was adjust everything to make the character look like me. Obviously, if a gender was forced, you're always going to feel like you're just playing a character.

I would be a mark against that thought process. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not the kind to project directly onto a video game. I never think of the playable characters as me, never fashion them after me, and I generally prefer games where there is a great character of someone else's creation. When I play a video game I want to step into someone else's imagination and see where it takes me (I get enough of my own imagination all the time :p ). This is why games like the Elder Scrolls series and other 'you are the hero/savior/jesus herpaderp' kind of games are not my favorites.

I don't mind stepping into another's shoes, I live for it. Sure when playing a game there is always an element of control but I don't feel like I absolutely HAVE to relate to the person I'm playing nor do I feel like I even have to like them. I'm in it for the ride.



As for the "males always being better", CLEARLY you haven't had the good fortune of meeting Aria T'Loak in Mass Effect 2. Best character in the entire series - Female. :D

Notice I said males 'on the whole' tend to be characterized better, not always. I think the Uncharted series and Enslaved portrayed both genders very well.

I have played all of ME2 (including the DLC) and I met Aria. She is fun though in a way I wish I knew more about her, but I guess that's her appeal.

I have played the Mass Effect games in many ways. I have played male Shepard and romanced Tali, but then I found out that the Female voice acting for Shepard is better so I played her instead later. In the first and second Mass Effect, as FemShep, I romanced Liara and on a different playthrough Garrus and Thane. C:< I do what I want and have no shame about it. Why should I care? It's just a game. I'm confident in my sexuality of being a straight female but I am not at all against people living the way they want to.

Spyhopping
10th Nov 2011, 18:57
I'm not a fan of being able to chose gender from the start of a game, it does weird things to your perception of the story.

In DX, I'd much rather things stuck with a tough, gravelly bloke wearing shades. I feel mildly resistant to change on this, though pretty open to suggestion. Anna Kelso was a strong character.

Romeo
10th Nov 2011, 19:33
I would be a mark against that thought process. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not the kind to project directly onto a video game. I never think of the playable characters as me, never fashion them after me, and I generally prefer games where there is a great character of someone else's creation. When I play a video game I want to step into someone else's imagination and see where it takes me (I get enough of my own imagination all the time :p ). This is why games like the Elder Scrolls series and other 'you are the hero/savior/jesus herpaderp' kind of games are not my favorites.

I don't mind stepping into another's shoes, I live for it. Sure when playing a game there is always an element of control but I don't feel like I absolutely HAVE to relate to the person I'm playing nor do I feel like I even have to like them. I'm in it for the ride.




Notice I said males 'on the whole' tend to be characterized better, not always. I think the Uncharted series and Enslaved portrayed both genders very well.

I have played all of ME2 (including the DLC) and I met Aria. She is fun though in a way I wish I knew more about her, but I guess that's her appeal.

I have played the Mass Effect games in many ways. I have played male Shepard and romanced Tali, but then I found out that the Female voice acting for Shepard is better so I played her instead later. In the first and second Mass Effect, as FemShep, I romanced Liara and on a different playthrough Garrus and Thane. C:< I do what I want and have no shame about it. Why should I care? It's just a game. I'm confident in my sexuality of being a straight female but I am not at all against people living the way they want to.
Well Erica, I'm sure we can both agree then: You're a weirdo.

Kidding, of course!

I suppose it doesn't apply to everyone, but usually an RPG is of a character of your creation (Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, Dark Souls, Fallout, Dragon Age, etc), which in turn lends itself to putting yourself in to that character. It becomes less about "Guide this person from Point A to Point B" and more of "Here's Point B: How would you get there?". I recognize that Deus Ex doesn't allow the player to create their own character, but the choice and consequence aspect is still there.

I haven't played Uncharted or Enslaved, but I suspect that has a lot to do with not owning a PS3 for the former, and not caring much for platformers in the case of the latter. There are a few exceptions of strong female characters (Actually, Starcraft comes to mind now), but you're right: On the whole, the industry tends to have the maturity of a twelve year old boy. Although in their defense, the majority of their customers these days seem to have the maturity of a twelve year old boy.

She is a bit of an enigma (Although the implied background of her is pretty damn awesome (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Aleena)), but I like how casually she threatens you. Always found her to be the most interesting character to talk to.

And I also picked Tali for my option. When I played as Femshep, I didn't really romance anyone (Even though the internet assures me Femshep/Miranda action is pretty much better than life (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=femshep%20miranda&source=web&cd=4&sqi=2&ved=0CDMQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsocial.bioware.com%2Fforum%2F1%2Ftopic%2F105%2Findex%2F1339511%2F1&ei=Tia8Tuv5II_9iQKKz9CaCw&usg=AFQjCNE8uSh2KVngtcvIkPVtSpjb5O4WYA)), albeit, that kinda backfired when I broke poor Garrus' and Thane's hearts. =P

I'm not a fan of being able to chose gender from the start of a game, it does weird things to your perception of the story.

In DX, I'd much rather things stuck with a tough, gravelly bloke wearing shades. I feel mildly resistant to change on this, though pretty open to suggestion. Anna Kelso was a strong character.
Never had the former issue (Although I guess I could see where you're coming from) but I strongly oppose the second. At least on the voice I do. We've had the same voice pretty much for three games now. We've finally broken free of the monotone of the first two, now I'm hoping we can finally get a protagonist that doesn't sound like he smokes ninety cigarettes before breakfast.

EricaLeeV
10th Nov 2011, 19:47
Well Erica, I'm sure we can both agree then: You're a weirdo.

Kidding, of course!

I suppose it doesn't apply to everyone, but usually an RPG is of a character of your creation (Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, Dark Souls, Fallout, Dragon Age, etc), which in turn lends itself to putting yourself in to that character. It becomes less about "Guide this person from Point A to Point B" and more of "Here's Point B: How would you get there?". I recognize that Deus Ex doesn't allow the player to create their own character, but the choice and consequence aspect is still there.

I haven't played Uncharted or Enslaved, but I suspect that has a lot to do with not owning a PS3 for the former, and not caring much for platformers in the case of the latter. There are a few exceptions of strong female characters (Actually, Starcraft comes to mind now), but you're right: On the whole, the industry tends to have the maturity of a twelve year old boy. Although in their defense, the majority of their customers these days seem to have the maturity of a twelve year old boy.

*looks down* I know I'm weird... thank goodness I am not the only one.

You know, when it comes to Uncharted or Enslaved you could just watch the scenes online. Sure it's not playing the game but I know I do that whenever I am interested enough in a game but don't want to play it. I did that with the first Dead Space when I thought it would be too frightening for me and afterwards I ended up buying it to play myself. :D



And I also picked Tali for my option. When I played as Femshep, I didn't really romance anyone (Even though the internet assures me Femshep/Miranda action is pretty much better than life (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=femshep%20miranda&source=web&cd=4&sqi=2&ved=0CDMQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsocial.bioware.com%2Fforum%2F1%2Ftopic%2F105%2Findex%2F1339511%2F1&ei=Tia8Tuv5II_9iQKKz9CaCw&usg=AFQjCNE8uSh2KVngtcvIkPVtSpjb5O4WYA)), albeit, that kinda backfired when I broke poor Garrus' and Thane's hearts. =P

Psh, you haven't seen the epitimy of hotness until you've seen ThanexMaleShepard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4ZwFjhbBvM). Hot chicks are a dime a dozen but hot guys? Now believe me those are hard to come by.

Of course none of that is to be outdone by...

Mordinmance. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji0tJ5hxPmI)

/jokepost



Oh Mass Effect... :nut: I hope I've scarred the lot of you for life.


Never had the former issue (Although I guess I could see where you're coming from) but I strongly oppose the second. At least on the voice I do. We've had the same voice pretty much for three games now. We've finally broken free of the monotone of the first two, now I'm hoping we can finally get a protagonist that doesn't sound like he smokes ninety cigarettes before breakfast.

Amen Brother.

ilweran
10th Nov 2011, 19:52
I also really don't like the idea of someone in the next Deus Ex AGAIN having sunglasses and a black coat. I mean in DXHR Jensen was meant to mirror JC both as foreshadowing and as a sort of tribute to the previous DX. If they do it again, to me it'll come off as cheesy and unoriginal. It barely worked in DXHR as it is.

They tried the no sunglasses or coat thing and we got IW....

EricaLeeV
10th Nov 2011, 19:54
They tried the no sunglasses or coat thing and we got IW....

You aren't saying the problem with IW is the way the character looks alone are you? Mind you I don't like the art design in that game at all but that was the LEAST of it's problems.

Believe me, in good hands an art team can create a wonderful new main character that doesn't rely on tropes of former games.

The Monochrome Man
10th Nov 2011, 19:59
In DX, I'd much rather things stuck with a tough, gravelly bloke wearing shades. I feel mildly resistant to change on this, though pretty open to suggestion. Anna Kelso was a strong character.

Not so sure about that...

I could quite easily see a character like Faith (Mirror's Edge) taking on a leading role. Sure, that'd be more on the 80's 'punk' side of cyberpunk, and it would be tough to write multi-path game for a character with that much personality, but it'd be a nice break from the norm.

DE:HR's story was a lot more focussed than the originals as well, so I could see it working.

Romeo
10th Nov 2011, 20:31
*looks down* I know I'm weird... thank goodness I am not the only one.

You know, when it comes to Uncharted or Enslaved you could just watch the scenes online. Sure it's not playing the game but I know I do that whenever I am interested enough in a game but don't want to play it. I did that with the first Dead Space when I thought it would be too frightening for me and afterwards I ended up buying it to play myself. :D




Psh, you haven't seen the epitimy of hotness until you've seen ThanexMaleShepard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4ZwFjhbBvM). Hot chicks are a dime a dozen but hot guys? Now believe me those are hard to come by.

Of course none of that is to be outdone by...

Mordinmance. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji0tJ5hxPmI)

/jokepost



Oh Mass Effect... :nut: I hope I've scarred the lot of you for life.



Amen Brother.
Hot guys are easy to come by, I visit these forums all the time, after all.

They tried the no sunglasses or coat thing and we got IW....
The lack of sunglasses or coat had literally no impact on that game. The glasses and coat on Jensen are starting to look out of place though.

EricaLeeV
10th Nov 2011, 20:35
Hot guys are easy to come by, I visit these forums all the time, after all.


XD HAHAHA! Ah Romeo you kill me.

ilweran
10th Nov 2011, 20:36
You aren't saying the problem with IW is the way the character looks alone are you? Mind you I don't like the art design in that game at all but that was the LEAST of it's problems.

Believe me, in good hands an art team can create a wonderful new main character that doesn't rely on tropes of former games.

I quite liked IW, I know I'm in the minority though...

But no, that wasn't it's main problem. I guess I just like gravelly voiced male characters who wear long coats and sunglasses.

auric
10th Nov 2011, 20:54
Not that I mind playing males all the time, I'm so used to it, it doesn't bother me at all. Males are just people like me so why should I think of them any differently? :p

I like female leading characters just as much as male's, actually bit more.
Seeing the other side of the coin.

Games with gender choices, I tend to choose female first than male.

Haven't updated my wallpaper in a long time. Chell from Portal not inside, anyone else missing?
Got a male characters too, didn't upload yet.
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/389873_2378802061900_1006092129_32616047_1017843626_n.jpg

Zoet
10th Nov 2011, 21:00
......I guess I just like gravelly voiced male characters who wear long coats and sunglasses.

Me too! I enjoyed having a good-looking male protagonist in DX:HR. And as I have said elsewhere on this forum, I want to see Adam in a sequel, so although I wouldn't mind a female protagonist, more Jensen is my first preference.;)
And besides, I thought that it was practically mandatory for Cyberpunk protagonists both male and female, to wear long coats, and shades too if possible. Bonus points if said shades are grafted to you face like in Neuromancer and DX:HR. It isn't just the DX games that have perpetuated this trope, it's been there since the beginning of the genre.

EricaLeeV
10th Nov 2011, 21:05
Me too! I enjoyed having a good-looking male protagonist in DX:HR. And as I have said elsewhere on this forum, I want to see Adam in a sequel, so although I wouldn't mind a female protagonist, more Jensen is my first preference.;)
And besides, I thought that it was practically mandatory for Cyberpunk protagonists both male and female, to wear long coats, and shades too if possible. Bonus points if said shades are grafted to you face like in Neuromancer and DX:HR. It isn't just the DX games that have perpetuated this trope, it's been there since the beginning of the genre.

I can understand that but I don't want to restrict the design of a character to a genre like that. It becomes so predictable and boring that way. I believe the creative team at EM knew this, which is why they decided to incorporate the Renaissance theme in addition to the Cyberpunk.

Romeo
10th Nov 2011, 21:20
XD HAHAHA! Ah Romeo you kill me.
Aye, that's me... Romeo: The lady-killer. =P

I can understand that but I don't want to restrict the design of a character to a genre like that. It becomes so predictable and boring that way. I believe the creative team at EM knew this, which is why they decided to incorporate the Renaissance theme in addition to the Cyberpunk.
Precisely. I'm all for respecting one's roots, but never at the expense of creativity. I hope Eidos tries something new for the next game; We've already had the gravelly-voiced trenchcoat-connaisseur with the personality of a cantaloupe. It's time for a new take on a protagonist.

auric
10th Nov 2011, 21:21
Anyway like I said in some other threads.

I prefer DX to have different characters in each sequel.
While using DLCs to explore each characters further as mini sequels.

Unlike other games, DX have that unique feeling to better meet your past character in sequels rather than controlling them again.
It allows them to remain powerful & do things that would be huge spoilers or make no sense for current & new players.

jeyeichkey
10th Nov 2011, 22:17
I could play a female character.. if she wasn't akward in personality and clothing. I would want a stong female character who really was a awesome agent... that blow stuff up and sneaks around. (Yeah, I know those two don't add up, but dreaming is fine, right?)

Romeo
10th Nov 2011, 22:48
I could play a female character.. if she wasn't akward in personality and clothing. I would want a stong female character who really was a awesome agent... that blow stuff up and sneaks around. (Yeah, I know those two don't add up, but dreaming is fine, right?)
Stealth and saboutage aren't mutually exclusive. You can leave an explosive somewhere and detonate. The enemy might know someone is around, they might know where the explosion is, but they don't know where the saboteur is. This is why the rocket launcher is such a good stealth weapon in Human Revolution. =)

TrickyVein
10th Nov 2011, 23:53
I think Ilves's Fem-AJ was deleted from imageshack!!! I can't find a picture of her!!! She was going to add to my post so well..,

Anyhoo, I'm trying to follow Erica's and other people's conversation here, and I wanted to say that given the oppurtunity I always play as a female character. I think becuase it makes the distance between reality and fantasy that much greater (for me at least). Maybe there's someone else inside of me, screaming to get out. Whatever. I don't see anything about the Deus Ex universe which forces the main protagonist to be male. I think a female could be just as emo and self-destructive as Adam. One of the best sci-fi stories I read was about a woman who had lost her husband to some group of natives on this planet somewhere in the universe - they ate him in fact - she was so wrathful at the beginning but it was amazing to watch her character transform and eventually grow to forgive them and understand why they did it.

It was probably the superior voice-acting, but Alex Denton worked much better as a female character as well.

@ Romeo,


Aye, but neither did JC. And he was a male-only option.

What do you mean here? That Deus Ex forced the player to be male? This is OK in my eyes because the game, JC's interactions with characters like Sandra Renton and Maggie Chow could be fully developed this way.

EricaLeeV
11th Nov 2011, 00:03
I think Ilves's Fem-AJ was deleted from imageshack!!! I can't find a picture of her!!! She was going to add to my post so well..,

Anyhoo, I'm trying to follow Erica's and other people's conversation here, and I wanted to say that given the oppurtunity I always play as a female character. I think becuase it makes the distance between reality and fantasy that much greater (for me at least). Maybe there's someone else inside of me, screaming to get out. Whatever. I don't see anything about the Deus Ex universe which forces the main protagonist to be male. I think a female could be just as emo and self-destructive as Adam. One of the best sci-fi stories I read was about a woman who had lost her husband to some group of natives on this planet somewhere in the universe - they ate him in fact - she was so wrathful at the beginning but it was amazing to watch her character transform and eventually grow to forgive them and understand why they did it.


I always thought Motoko Kusanagi of Ghost in the Shell fame (the movie) did a great job being a generally asexual cyberpunk character. Angst and all.

Also the picture you are looking for is in the Pritchard and Jensen thread...don't ask why it's there.

Jvrol
11th Nov 2011, 00:25
Did you know that the original Deus Ex originally planned to have both sexes selectable like in IW? Meaning they were originally planning on a female JC Denton but it was scrapped though.

http://www.nanoaugur.net/dx/bible/

http://www.nanoaugur.net/dx/bible/images/jcdentonfemale_w2.jpg

EricaLeeV
11th Nov 2011, 00:40
http://www.nanoaugur.net/dx/bible/images/jcdentonfemale_w2.jpg

I am disappoint with that fanart.


If it's official art I am way more disappoint. One of the images I gave from tumblr earlier in this thread is extremely relevant now. :/



Yes, this merits bad grammar.

Shralla
11th Nov 2011, 00:42
I'd like to see a female lead. Would be interesting. But I'd like to see a sole female lead -- not a gender choice.

This. The more character customization there is, the more storytelling opportunities you lose, unless you're genuinely prepared to take EVERYTHING into account, which pretty much won't ever happen. I don't mind female leads at all, and I think that Deus Ex would be an extremely good franchise to have one in.

Zoet
11th Nov 2011, 01:05
I am disappoint with that fanart.


If it's official art I am way more disappoint. One of the images I gave from tumblr earlier in this thread is extremely relevant now. :/



Yes, this merits bad grammar.

Yes it does merit bad grammar, and from clicking on the link, I also think that it is official art, but the early concept next to it of the male version isn't much better. This is the kind of female character I would never want.
Off topic, but I've just finished reading Neal Stevenson's Snow Crash. I though it was hilarious and generally fantastic, and actually could work in some way as a videogame, with a tough action-focussed hero and an agile, gadget-focussed heroine. Best of both worlds.

Rainbow6Team
11th Nov 2011, 02:05
A female main character sounds cool,one that is tough and has a strong personality.

I guess her name would be Eve?Like Adam and Eve?

TrickyVein
11th Nov 2011, 02:09
How bout "Mary Magdalene" to contrast "JC?"

EricaLeeV
11th Nov 2011, 02:16
How bout "Mary Magdalene" to contrast "JC?"

Oh you shut up and get out of my mind Tricky. :eek: I was just thinking,

'If EM was really predictable and pretentious they would call her Mary herpaderpaderp'

>:C If they somehow make another person related to JC in some way be the next protagonist (should they choose a new one) I'm going to scream.

TrickyVein
11th Nov 2011, 02:27
Ho HO!!! What now, Ms. LeeVee? :D

I s'pose JC could have fathered a child with Renton. Who then goes out into this vast cyberpunk world to search for her/his father. Before JC goes bat---- insane and encases himself in ice. While growing an impressive widow's peak.

That would actually suck. Please don't do that, EM.

Romeo
11th Nov 2011, 02:58
@ Romeo,



What do you mean here? That Deus Ex forced the player to be male? This is OK in my eyes because the game, JC's interactions with characters like Sandra Renton and Maggie Chow could be fully developed this way.
No, I was saying JC didn't exactly scream personality himself, so I don't think saying the reason Alex lacked personality was because you could choose male or female.

Ho HO!!! What now, Ms. LeeVee? :D

I s'pose JC could have fathered a child with Renton. Who then goes out into this vast cyberpunk world to search for her/his father. Before JC goes bat---- insane and encases himself in ice. While growing an impressive widow's peak.

That would actually suck. Please don't do that, EM.
Suck? Or improve the series in every concievable way? Your move, Eidos. :thumb:

TrickyVein
11th Nov 2011, 03:04
JC was never "big into books" this is true.

s.pasanen
11th Nov 2011, 08:36
In a normal world, I'd agree with you. But we're talking about augmented individuals. Why would Jensen's robot arms be any more powerful than Lady Jensen's robot arms? Same product. And as I said, when it comes to shooting, it all comes down to experience, not gender.

There propably wouldnt be any difference between male and female augumentations (exept maybe for the physical appearance?). Listen, im not trying to hammer anybody down here because of a gender, but I am saying that for me personally, female protagonist (wich btw is usually small sized but still kicks everybodys- even super soldiers ass like in movies) in a game that features straight action is at least for me an illusion braker. Im also personally pretty sick of this current movie pattern that these "unbeatable super soldier hottie chicks" kicks everybodys ass. This is just my opinion, please dont get upset about it.

jeyeichkey
11th Nov 2011, 08:58
@EricaLeeVee
I'm so slow in this conversation but, Motoko Kusanagi is kind of lesbian. She lives with two other women. Although, she is much too hardcore into her job to actually live any kind of regluar familylife.

@Rainbow6Team
Eve would work, or Lilith. But on the other hand. Lilith would probably be the badassed character.

@s.pasanen
I kind of agree with you. Playing a sex object character with silly clothes just makes it stupid.

The picture of the female Deus Ex character.. well she has pants on at least. But upper body just seems off.. Why does she have to show her belly? Doesn't make sense, not for gun fights anyway.

Romeo
11th Nov 2011, 09:35
There propably wouldnt be any difference between male and female augumentations (exept maybe for the physical appearance?). Listen, im not trying to hammer anybody down here because of a gender, but I am saying that for me personally, female protagonist (wich btw is usually small sized but still kicks everybodys- even super soldiers ass like in movies) in a game that features straight action is at least for me an illusion braker. Im also personally pretty sick of this current movie pattern that these "unbeatable super soldier hottie chicks" kicks everybodys ass. This is just my opinion, please dont get upset about it.
I'm not upset, I'm genuinely curious. To me, saying you want one augment to kick total ass, and then go on to say that another augment kicking total ass is an illusion breaker just seems peculiar.

ilweran
11th Nov 2011, 09:57
Listen, im not trying to hammer anybody down here because of a gender, but I am saying that for me personally, female protagonist (wich btw is usually small sized but still kicks everybodys- even super soldiers ass like in movies) in a game that features straight action is at least for me an illusion braker.

I agree with Romeo. This is odd. If augmentations can level the playing field considerably, size and gender become less important. And Adam looks small compared to Barrett.


@EricaLeeVeeThe picture of the female Deus Ex character.. well she has pants on at least. But upper body just seems off.. Why does she have to show her belly? Doesn't make sense, not for gun fights anyway.

Because she lives in video game world. And it doesn't make sense for most kinds of fights.

Ashpolt
11th Nov 2011, 10:34
The only problem I have with playing a female protagonist in a Deus Ex game is: how interesting can a game set in the kitchen really be? :rasp:

No, don't hurt me EricaLeeVee, I'll be good...

But seriously, I would be fine with a female protagonist, either as an option or as the only choice. As long as it's a strong, well written character (or a complete blank slate for me to project onto) then I don't care if it's male, female, transsexual, genderless, animal, vegetable or mineral. I'd much rather have an all new female character than play as Adam again, in fact.

That said, we do have to take one thing into consideration: JJB. If the next game has a female protagonist, JJB is going to have spend weeks or even months drawing her from every conceivable angle, in every conceivable pose, poring over every detail of her hair, her clothing, her skin. He may go into meltdown, the poor guy!

Also also, if we do get a female protagonist, let's hope she's not modelled on JJB like Adam is. That would be...disturbing. But it would also be funny to see photoshopped / drawn. Artists / photoshoppers, make it happen!

auric
11th Nov 2011, 10:42
I think Ilves's Fem-AJ was deleted from imageshack!!! I can't find a picture of her!!! She was going to add to my post so well..,

not sure if ur referring to this one but Erica seems to think so. :)
here it is anyway. :)
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/331/3/3/alternative_view_by_djdiversant-d33pcae.jpg

auric
11th Nov 2011, 10:49
The picture of the female Deus Ex character.. well she has pants on at least. But upper body just seems off.. Why does she have to show her belly? Doesn't make sense, not for gun fights anyway.

For distraction, but not the only reason, its just a plus if someone does fall for it.
other reasons, less bulkier making her more agile.

blend in the crowd (only if its a fashion in the public)

Would be very noticeable to see a girl with armour on or thick trench-coat while walking around in public.
:)

Oh & personal preference. Somehow I don't think JC wore what he wore because of effectiveness, as Navara pointed out in her own way.

s.pasanen
11th Nov 2011, 11:34
I'm not upset, I'm genuinely curious. To me, saying you want one augment to kick total ass, and then go on to say that another augment kicking total ass is an illusion breaker just seems peculiar.

If you are genuinely curious then I might try to explain my view to you once again. First of all, today we have so many of these “unbeatable super soldier hottie chicks” in movies and in everything that it is getting rather boring. Secondly it just looks so damn silly when small woman who has her shoulders as wide as her head is jumping around in tight leather pants and in high heels and fly kicking bunch of bad guys unconscious, I don’t care if she is augumented or not because to me that just looks stupid and unrealistic, AND as I all ready said: today we have it WAY too much anyway so it suffers also from inflation.

TrickyVein
11th Nov 2011, 12:49
Thanks Auric, that's the one!

Oh jeez. JJB trapped in a woman's body. This will have to be a weekend project.

EricaLeeV
11th Nov 2011, 13:17
@EricaLeeVee
I'm so slow in this conversation but, Motoko Kusanagi is kind of lesbian. She lives with two other women. Although, she is much too hardcore into her job to actually live any kind of regluar familylife.


I know she is hinted at being Bisexual in the anime (which I don't watch by the way) but I'm talking about the movie. In the movie it is focused on her inner struggle a lot more and her sexuality is never really touched upon.



The only problem I have with playing a female protagonist in a Deus Ex game is: how interesting can a game set in the kitchen really be? :rasp:

No, don't hurt me EricaLeeVee, I'll be good...

But seriously, I would be fine with a female protagonist, either as an option or as the only choice. As long as it's a strong, well written character (or a complete blank slate for me to project onto) then I don't care if it's male, female, transsexual, genderless, animal, vegetable or mineral. I'd much rather have an all new female character than play as Adam again, in fact.

That said, we do have to take one thing into consideration: JJB. If the next game has a female protagonist, JJB is going to have spend weeks or even months drawing her from every conceivable angle, in every conceivable pose, poring over every detail of her hair, her clothing, her skin. He may go into meltdown, the poor guy!

Also also, if we do get a female protagonist, let's hope she's not modelled on JJB like Adam is. That would be...disturbing. But it would also be funny to see photoshopped / drawn. Artists / photoshoppers, make it happen!

You are dead to me Ash! D:< /joke

All kidding aside don't remind me of how JJB might treat a female protagonist. @_@ Many/most of his tumblr pictures are of dark haired fair skinned ladies with little clothing on. Jesus. No, get someone else on that.





For distraction, but not the only reason, its just a plus if someone does fall for it.
other reasons, less bulkier making her more agile.

blend in the crowd (only if its a fashion in the public)

Would be very noticeable to see a girl with armour on or thick trench-coat while walking around in public.
:)

Oh & personal preference. Somehow I don't think JC wore what he wore because of effectiveness, as Navara pointed out in her own way.

That is definitely personal preference, I really don't think the sexual angle would work for all soldiers. Believe it or not there is more to a chick's life or potential fighting style than trying to exploit her looks for trickery. Especially if they put in a few female soldiers like they should have. :/

ilweran
11th Nov 2011, 13:22
If you are genuinely curious then I might try to explain my view to you once again. First of all, today we have so many of these “unbeatable super soldier hottie chicks” in movies and in everything that it is getting rather boring. Secondly it just looks so damn silly when small woman who has her shoulders as wide as her head is jumping around in tight leather pants and in high heels and fly kicking bunch of bad guys unconscious, I don’t care if she is augumented or not because to me that just looks stupid and unrealistic, AND as I all ready said: today we have it WAY too much anyway so it suffers also from inflation.

But how many do we really have, overall, compared to super-soldier style male characters? Why would it have to be a small overly slender woman anyway? We could, shockingly, have a slightly more normally proportioned female character.

A couple of points in favour of the female Alex D - She was dressed sensibly and wasn't modelled after a Barbie doll. She even had a practical haircut.

EricaLeeV
11th Nov 2011, 13:26
But how many do we really have, overall, compared to super-soldier style male characters? Why would it have to be a small overly slender woman anyway? We could, shockingly, have a slightly more normally proportioned female character.

A couple of points in favour of the female Alex D - She was dressed sensibly and wasn't modelled after a Barbie doll. She even had a practical haircut.

THANK YOU.

Believe it or not females come in many different shapes, sizes, and builds. However entertainment seems to focus on a...particular type. >_>

auric
11th Nov 2011, 13:30
THANK YOU.

Believe it or not females come in many different shapes, sizes, and builds. However entertainment seems to focus on a...particular type. >_>

How many types do u see in that picture of female game characters
I posted on the 2nd page?

:)

Did u see the 2 inch person?

EricaLeeV
11th Nov 2011, 13:36
How many types do u see in that picture of female game characters
I posted on the 2nd page?

:)

Did u see the 2 inch person?

I do in fact see many females in that image with unrealistic bust sizes that are under built for what they supposedly accomplish (especially if some of them fight) and with fair skin tone. In other words many of them are remarkably similar, no surprise there. Not to say that male protagonists (http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/117/1177659p1.html) have been very good about that kind of thing either (http://www.destructoid.com/brown-hair-and-stubble-the-new-face-of-modern-videogames-178442.phtml).

That just says a lot about the industry itself right there.

auric
11th Nov 2011, 14:10
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/382792_2382009742090_1006092129_32617440_1953741172_n.jpg

Ilves
11th Nov 2011, 14:18
Not to say that male protagonists (http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/117/1177659p1.html) have been very good about that kind of thing either (http://www.destructoid.com/brown-hair-and-stubble-the-new-face-of-modern-videogames-178442.phtml).



I was about to say. :p


I can't manage to formulate a coherent post out of this, so here's some random stuff.

Is this a good time to point out the borderline malesploitation of Adam Jensen's concoctedly good looks on EM's part? The reveal trailer alone was about 20% story & theme establishment, and 80% sexy.

Which I guess is justifiable when one of your main themes is body modification. I'm just saying that cashing in on the sex appeal of a game character is really not exclusive to female characters.
Got this creeping feeling lately that studio's are deliberately playing to the sensibilities of the fan art & cosplay communities. With HR, well, they hit the spot.

Also I'm totally with Mr. Pasanen on today's "strong female" in movies & games. In a one-on-one it's perfectly fine for a girl to beat a man if it's a contest of wit, agility or speed. But if it's a measure of brute force I find it immensely annoying when a girl knocks out a dude twice her mass. And looks good doing it. It's just such a straight up lie. ;P

On avatar gender preference: Even when I really like a male character and his story, and consciously don't have a problem with getting into a male protagonist's shoes-- something telling happened while playing Uncharted 3 recently.

After having spent about 6 hours with Drake's persona, I find him & Elena on top of a hangar overlooking an airfield. I pause for a moment to admire the view. After a while I decide to continue onward, and I push the stick forward to proceed. While Drake runs off immediately, for a brief second my brain is sincerely wondering why I - or rather, Elena - is just standing there and doesn't respond to my input. It was just surreal how strongly my sense of presence in the game was connected to the female NPC rather than the male PC that I'd spent multiple hours connecting with. :nut:

EricaLeeV
11th Nov 2011, 15:43
I was about to say. :p


I can't manage to formulate a coherent post out of this, so here's some random stuff.

Is this a good time to point out the borderline malesploitation of Adam Jensen's concoctedly good looks on EM's part? The reveal trailer alone was about 20% story & theme establishment, and 80% sexy.

Which I guess is justifiable when one of your main themes is body modification. I'm just saying that cashing in on the sex appeal of a game character is really not exclusive to female characters.
Got this creeping feeling lately that studio's are deliberately playing to the sensibilities of the fan art & cosplay communities. With HR, well, they hit the spot.

Oh I agree, poor guys always avatar these unrealistic hot dudes with all the talent. However, undoubtedly, that gender gets far more variety and MUCH better characterization than the um...'fairer' gender does.



On avatar gender preference: Even when I really like a male character and his story, and consciously don't have a problem with getting into a male protagonist's shoes-- something telling happened while playing Uncharted 3 recently.

After having spent about 6 hours with Drake's persona, I find him & Elena on top of a hangar overlooking an airfield. I pause for a moment to admire the view. After a while I decide to continue onward, and I push the stick forward to proceed. While Drake runs off immediately, for a brief second my brain is sincerely wondering why I - or rather, Elena - is just standing there and doesn't respond to my input. It was just surreal how strongly my sense of presence in the game was connected to the female NPC rather than the male PC that I'd spent multiple hours connecting with. :nut:

Yep, I'm on the same boat. Never been a problem getting into the shoes of someone who is not my gender.

Like I said before Uncharted is one of the few series to do characterization well for both sexes. It's a shame more people on this board haven't played that game. I f**king love it. :D

ilweran
11th Nov 2011, 16:22
Is this a good time to point out the borderline malesploitation of Adam Jensen's concoctedly good looks on EM's part?

I'm trying to think of other games that might have done this with a male character. Prince of Persia maybe? I'm sure that's been mentioned on other forums when this sort of thing has been discussed. Nothing else springs to mind, but I don't normally pay much attention to promotional stuff around games, or anything else for that matter.

EricaLeeV
11th Nov 2011, 16:40
I'm trying to think of other games that might have done this with a male character. Prince of Persia maybe? I'm sure that's been mentioned on other forums when this sort of thing has been discussed. Nothing else springs to mind, but I don't normally pay much attention to promotional stuff around games, or anything else for that matter.

I personally think this is a more common practice amongst Japanese games rather than Western ones. Square Enix tends to do this a lot...then again look what published this game.

It's certainly not as blatantly done like female sexual exploitation though. Take Bayonetta for example, Lara Croft...

ilweran
11th Nov 2011, 16:47
All the Final Fantasy characters I know just seem to meld together into one generic person with silly hair. Except for Lulu, had a bit of a thing for her, probably why I liked Morrigan in Dragon Age so much.

Zoet
11th Nov 2011, 19:11
I'm trying to think of other games that might have done this with a male character. Prince of Persia maybe? I'm sure that's been mentioned on other forums when this sort of thing has been discussed. Nothing else springs to mind, but I don't normally pay much attention to promotional stuff around games, or anything else for that matter.

I can't think of any other games really either, and the appeal to the 'female gaze' (female objectifying gaze rather than the male objectifying gaze) certainly got my attention :p
Movies and TV on the other hand do this all the time.

@ Erica: now you're making me want to play it! But I've only got an xbox :(

EricaLeeV
11th Nov 2011, 20:12
@ Erica: now you're making me want to play it! But I've only got an xbox :(

I know how that is. You know if you are really interested in the story aspects of it you can just watch a walkthrough or a cut and pasted cutscene montage on youtube. I do that with games I don't have access to or games I just don't want to play. :) Those kinds of things are nice to watch as white noise while drawing. I suggest watching the 2nd and 3rd Uncharted games though the first one does help you get attached to certain characters early on. The series itself is ripe with reoccurring characters and as the games progress you just feel like you know them that much more.

TrickyVein
11th Nov 2011, 22:56
Like I said before Uncharted is one of the few series to do characterization well for both sexes. It's a shame more people on this board haven't played that game. I f**king love it. :D

I felt like Naughty Dog betrayed me when they stopped making fun, loveable cartoon characters like Crash and Daxter. I've never played the Uncharted games but you say they are good? At least, I've heard decent things about this latest one. The first one not so much.

Romeo
11th Nov 2011, 23:10
If you are genuinely curious then I might try to explain my view to you once again. First of all, today we have so many of these “unbeatable super soldier hottie chicks” in movies and in everything that it is getting rather boring. Secondly it just looks so damn silly when small woman who has her shoulders as wide as her head is jumping around in tight leather pants and in high heels and fly kicking bunch of bad guys unconscious, I don’t care if she is augumented or not because to me that just looks stupid and unrealistic, AND as I all ready said: today we have it WAY too much anyway so it suffers also from inflation.
Right, but if you read my post I'm not asking for some two-inch wide high-heeled ego-trip. I'm asking why a plausible alternative to Adam would be unrealistic. Any normal female with cybernetic enhancements would have little trouble kicking the crap out of a normal male, and would be on perfectly equal footing with an augmented male. As I said, I'm genuinely curious as to where you feel the advantage would somehow go to the male. Un-augmented, sure, I'd be with you - but that isn't what we're talking about here.

THANK YOU.

Believe it or not females come in many different shapes, sizes, and builds. However entertainment seems to focus on a...particular type. >_>
Females come in sizes other than XXS with 42DD? TELL ME IT ISN'T TRUE! lol

Yeah, entertainment does seem to be stuck with some pretty stupid notions, it's irritating.

All the Final Fantasy characters I know just seem to meld together into one generic person with silly hair. Except for Lulu, had a bit of a thing for her, probably why I liked Morrigan in Dragon Age so much.
Probably because Morrigan was the best thing to ever happen to Dragon Age? She was thoroughly entertaining to be around. The fact she was so central to the plot was just a bonus. =P

ilweran
12th Nov 2011, 00:33
Morrigan's appearance reminded me of Lulu. She was entertaining in her own right, and while I complain about how impractical her outfit was I did like it.

Thinking about Deus Ex, gender issues and my comments about Alex, IW actually had better balance in that respect. Just thinking of enemies/potential enemies, the SSC had female guards, as did the templars - some of the armoured templars were women as well. DX had a few WiBs, Chow, Navarre, can't remember any others. HR had Fedorova and Zhao.

Romeo
12th Nov 2011, 06:22
Morrigan's appearance reminded me of Lulu. She was entertaining in her own right, and while I complain about how impractical her outfit was I did like it.

Thinking about Deus Ex, gender issues and my comments about Alex, IW actually had better balance in that respect. Just thinking of enemies/potential enemies, the SSC had female guards, as did the templars - some of the armoured templars were women as well. DX had a few WiBs, Chow, Navarre, can't remember any others. HR had Fedorova and Zhao.
Pretty sure Zhao was the game's metaphor for that one bat-[fecal matter] crazy girl every guy dates at least once.

At least, that's the impression I got. =P

EricaLeeV
12th Nov 2011, 06:23
I felt like Naughty Dog betrayed me when they stopped making fun, loveable cartoon characters like Crash and Daxter. I've never played the Uncharted games but you say they are good? At least, I've heard decent things about this latest one. The first one not so much.

Like I said in my previous post talking about the Uncharted games I would actually skip the first one, but you can watch it if you want to get a little more attached to three characters in particular. The series doesn't really have an all-enveloping storyline; it's more like the tales of Nathan Drake and his friends as they get into shenanigans. The first one REALLY is more of a 3rd person cover shooter, where you would face waves and WAVES of what seems like the same three NPCs. A funny controversy going on in the first Uncharted was the fact that most all of the NPCs the main character would take out were not Caucasian. :p Of course they varied up their NPCs a lot more in the sequels and made them more action/adventury in addition to being shooters. I like the latest installment in the series a lot more because it focuses more on the puzzles (which are not difficult at all but still fun) and the environmental traversal.

I would say the Uncharted series has some of the most likable characters out there (unless witty, sarcastic individuals bother you). Now I don't want to overblow this series and say it's 'teh best thing eva' but generally I've found most individuals (hardcore and casual) enjoy it's presentation at least. I would definitely not say it's storylines are anything to brag about but they are meant to represent a genre and pull it off in an entertaining way.

zN3rj6YemkI&ob=av3n



Pretty sure Zhao was the game's metaphor for that one bat-[fecal matter] crazy girl every guy dates at least once.

At least, that's the impression I got. =P

I just thought of Zhao as one more thing that screamed 'Hey remember that great Deus Ex game? Huh? Do ya? Yeah this is like Maggie Chow! Nostalgia goggles activate!'

In many ways I feel like EM used a lot of familiar ground when they made DXHR. The protagonist that is a lot like JC, you have a pilot, you have a tech, you get betrayed, you go to China...

Zoet
12th Nov 2011, 07:44
I just thought of Zhao as one more thing that screamed 'Hey remember that great Deus Ex game? Huh? Do ya? Yeah this is like Maggie Chow! Nostalgia goggles activate!'

In many ways I feel like EM used a lot of familiar ground when they made DXHR. The protagonist that is a lot like JC, you have a pilot, you have a tech, you get betrayed, you go to China...

As I have no DX nostalgia goggles to activate, they just feel more like common genre elements that it wears proudly, and are shared in some measure by most of the cyberpunk works that I have watched or read. But I'll take your word that having so many in common with the first game could come off as a bit tiered.
Gameplay wise, having a pilot and a tech support guy does make sense, and at least they give a sense of you having some company on your missions without forcing you to have a clumsy AI partner.

A key area for improvement for DX:HR, regardless of if they made a female protagonist or not would be to have more gender equality in the police force (Jenny was the only female police officer), and in combat roles, as seen in one of DX:HR's most obvious influences: Robocop.

ilweran
12th Nov 2011, 11:43
I just thought of Zhao as one more thing that screamed 'Hey remember that great Deus Ex game? Huh? Do ya? Yeah this is like Maggie Chow! Nostalgia goggles activate!'

In many ways I feel like EM used a lot of familiar ground when they made DXHR. The protagonist that is a lot like JC, you have a pilot, you have a tech, you get betrayed, you go to China...

I must admit I quite liked that about HR.

kelticfury
12th Nov 2011, 15:13
If there is a female protagonist there better be bewb physix

TrickyVein
12th Nov 2011, 16:28
I had no idea that Helen Mirren starred in the Uncharted games.

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5427/mirren.jpg

http://gerrymaxeyworkshop.com/blogging/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/104_helen_mirren-300x300.jpg

biofuel
12th Nov 2011, 18:03
....OK, now let's assume the sequel to Human Revolution has been released. No doubt you played as Adam Jensen, so the following pertains mostly, in all likelihood to the Deus Ex game to be released (fingers crossed) after Human Revolution's sequel....

In terms of the characters that the user gets to play, here are the key points:

* The single, solitary lead character model has possibly run its course. Proper consideration is due for the introduction of (just for one example) a Deus Ex game based on "chapters"; you as the player are in control of more than one primary character during the game. Appreciating the "choices have meaningful consequences" style that has thus far largely become the hallmark for what comprises Deus Ex, you could even go so far as to say that a "multiple chapter/multiple lead character" mode of game narrative could be a logical and progressive step toward taking the franchise to "the next level" - just one idea.

* What's more important, however, is this idea of the "gravel-voiced", solitary, lead male character that the original game started, and Human Revolution returned to in Adam Jensen (the original game had J.C). Aside from the no doubt mandatory sequel to Human Revolution, any truly new Deus Ex game with just a single lead character can under absolutely no circumstances be based upon the previous model, i.e., that of J.C./Jensen - "gruff-voice" guy. To do so would bring the franchise into serious farce. The revered archetype originally set by J.C's character would become a gross cliché even before the game's release.. I mean, come on, how many more times can we sit through yet more "gruff-toned" sound bites from a guy in a trench coat in the trailer for another Deus Ex game, and not laugh?). It would instantly undermine all serious notions a new game might want to introduce.

There are endless possibilities even if just playing as a single lead character, as to who that character might be in terms of their personality and where they would fit into the Deus Ex story, and so on.

If, again for example, the new game took advantage of an as aforementioned "gameplay chapters" model, wherein the user is actually deciding the actions (and therefore eliciting the meaningful consequences) of more than just one primary character in the game, then having one of these main characters in the J.C./Jensen mould I'm sure would be fine. It would remain fresh, and far more subtle if in addition to such a character you had other, different, yet equally rich and integral lead characters to also play as during the course of the game. But, if you're going to go with just the solitary, single lead character, you couldn't possibly if you are the developers, with a straight face opt for another deadpan, muscled, character with a trench coat and a gruff voice. It would negate any notion of creatively and progressively evolving the franchise, and at a certain point it just becomes laughable,

To answer the question, yes, Deus Ex could easily have a legitimately interesting and viable female player-character lead, resulting from appropriately interesting creative design.
There are many ways to tell a story, and this franchise lends itself particularly well to that concept. Myriad character options are open to the designers when they're drumming up a new playable lead character (or playable lead characters plural, perhaps more interestingly).

EricaLeeV
12th Nov 2011, 19:41
Well said Biofuel. :)



I must admit I quite liked that about HR.

I think in some ways the developers felt like they HAD to do repeating and familiar story beats and characters since they are trying to show that they understand the game they are making a prequel to. I remember way back before the game released people on this and many other forums had NO hopes that DXHR would do the original Deus Ex any justice. Some assumed that when the folks at EM were talking about how they meant to stay true to the original game that they were just BSing or just saying that so the fans would shut up. Of course the internet is going to be often times negative of these things, but they had every right to be. After all, Eidos Montreal was practically bringing back a game that has been gone since the early 2000s. To put it simply I think they tread a lot of familiar ground because they felt like they had to in order to prove themselves.

Now that they have I hope they don't stick to the same tropes the previous Deus Ex games had. I hope they manage to keep that spirit intact without overdoing something or making it cheesy. Many aspects of the game (like Adam Jensen being very similar to JC) barely worked in DXHR. If they decided to do yet ANOTHER game with a protagonist just like that, doing the same things, with the same basic backup team, fighting more enemies with barely any character then I'm afraid they have just worked themselves into a corner. A bad corner.

junco577
12th Nov 2011, 20:31
Two issues:

1. More than likely if a female lead is scripted, she will be the idealized female in appearance but her personality will will feature many traits that are culturally defined as masculine in western gender identity. So you end up with a big busted, slender alpha male in tight clothes.

2. The market for games like Deus Ex is still predominantly male. For many people (male or female) it's easier to immerse yourself in a game with any plot depth when the role you play is written to be carried out by a protagonist of your gender. Also, we're dealing with thousands of years of baggage in which the vast majority of heroes are male, and while I am all for more equality in this regard, a company with a largely male audience could understandably be tempted to script events based on stereotypes for safer sales rather than pushing against them. As more and more females join the gaming scene, this will be less and less of an issue. In the past decade marketing towards female gamers has increased exponentially, but it has a long way to go and one of the best marketing tools in this regard is word of mouth advocacy. So evangelize all your female friends to join in the fun.

I didn't want to post a "nod and agree" reply, so hopefully I have raised a couple issues. Personally, I am all for a female lead IF the game is written specifically for it in plot/dialogue/relationship options, she is not ridiculously stereotyped (heroines with 30% of their weight in their bust annoy me), and her personality seems plausible rather than defined by gender conventions.

Edit: I realize that male protagonists feature some of the same issues, but I'm ignoring them to stay on topic.

Zoet
12th Nov 2011, 20:39
..... If they decided to do yet ANOTHER game with a protagonist just like that, doing the same things, with the same basic backup team, fighting more enemies with barely any character then I'm afraid they have just worked themselves into a corner. A bad corner.

I agree that making a Jensen mark 2 would just be lame...

...so they'll just have to stick with Jensen then :p

See, I didn't find him to be completely devoid of character at all. He could have been further characterised, sure, and I would have appreciated it. Perhaps I'm just good at projecting and reading between the at times non-existent lines because all my other favourite games have silent protagonists or blank slates. (or did I misread that, and you're saying that the enemies have barely any character?? in which case I 100% agree)

Biofuel's suggestion of multiple characters is quite interesting, but it could potentially play havoc with character upgrades and loot collection if one was switching between a wide cast very frequently. I love games where there ability to scrounge ammo, cash etc. is a key part, as it makes the world feel more 'real' and I wouldn't have liked DX:HR anywhere near as much if that element wasn't there. Such a game could make a brilliant story experience though.

kelticfury
12th Nov 2011, 20:40
Two issues:

1. More than likely if a female lead is scripted, she will be the idealized female in appearance but her personality will will feature many traits that are culturally defined as masculine in western gender identity. So you end up with a big busted, slender alpha male in tight clothes.

Granted, but in a game where you are a black ops operative, its pretty much a given you are going to be in shape and ready for physical violence wether you are male or female.

I think a female protag would open options that would be deemed too soft in a gung-ho male protag, such as some humanity, emotions, regrets, all the stuff that would be too touchy feely for today's call of duty killem all gamers.

EricaLeeV
12th Nov 2011, 20:43
I think a female protag would open options that would be deemed too soft in a gung-ho male protag, such as some humanity, emotions, regrets, all the stuff that would be too touchy feely for today's call of duty killem all gamers.

...now that's just silly.


Some females may tend to be more emotionally inclined to certain things but the way we react to most things that would occur in Deus Ex games would really not be any different from a male.

junco577
12th Nov 2011, 21:53
Granted, but in a game where you are a black ops operative, its pretty much a given you are going to be in shape and ready for physical violence wether you are male or female.

There's a difference between being in shape and being the typical video game heroine. Being an acquaintance with a number of young women in the Marine Corps and NCAA collegiate athletes (not black ops, but definitely more fit than the VAST majority of females) I'd just like a compromise between the two. I'm OK with a bit of fantasy in a characters appearance, but I'd like to move away from the exaggerated body shapes/proportions many games use, the idealized facial features, etc. I'd like a heroine that I can actually imagine seeing in the gym in real life, even if her appearance still is well above average.

But that wasn't really my main point there; it was more along the lines that underneath whatever good looks they give her, I'd like to see some feminine touches to her personality rather than the alpha-male boilerplate. While numerous interactions might be the same regardless of gender, opportunities should be taken or created to allow for exploration of a female gender role.

sadmachine
12th Nov 2011, 23:32
See, I didn't find him to be completely devoid of character at all. He could have been further characterised, sure, and I would have appreciated it. Perhaps I'm just good at projecting and reading between the at times non-existent lines because all my other favourite games have silent protagonists or blank slates. (or did I misread that, and you're saying that the enemies have barely any character?? in which case I 100% agree)

I think Jensen is something of a blank slate--perhaps he must be in order to facilitate varying roleplay styles--but I never found myself noticing his "blank slateness" within the course of the game. It's such an immersive experience that I rather felt like what was happening to Jensen was happening to me. I suppose throughout the game I was filling in the blanks of where Jensen's feelings are not made explicit on-screen with my feelings, and in the end was left with a character I perceived to be as fully developed as Nathan Drake or John Marston.

EricaLeeV
13th Nov 2011, 00:11
See, I didn't find him to be completely devoid of character at all. He could have been further characterised, sure, and I would have appreciated it. Perhaps I'm just good at projecting and reading between the at times non-existent lines because all my other favourite games have silent protagonists or blank slates. (or did I misread that, and you're saying that the enemies have barely any character?? in which case I 100% agree)


I was saying the enemies had no character.

Jensen has a lot of character (especially compared to JC). A lot more than was shown in the game too, unfortunately. I recently got the Collectors Guide and it shed a lot of light on AJ's past and why Megan and him broke up. He's a lot more sensitive and caring than I was originally led to believe. >:C Now I super mad at Megan, though from what I read of her she didn't necessarily do it on purpose, she is just socially inept at times.

Zoet
13th Nov 2011, 08:16
I think Jensen is something of a blank slate--perhaps he must be in order to facilitate varying roleplay styles--but I never found myself noticing his "blank slateness" within the course of the game. It's such an immersive experience that I rather felt like what was happening to Jensen was happening to me. I suppose throughout the game I was filling in the blanks of where Jensen's feelings are not made explicit on-screen with my feelings, and in the end was left with a character I perceived to be as fully developed as Nathan Drake or John Marston.

That's pretty much how I felt too, but I would have liked more opportunities to define his emotional/mental state, and the opportunity to ask Pritchard about his TV show!


I was saying the enemies had no character.

Ah, that makes sense. Sorry about the confusion! :p And yes, the enemies for the most part weren't that well characterised, and its something that I think a lot of videogames struggle with. I haven't read the strategy guide. What secrets does it reveal???
Thinking about it, I think I actually prefer to play a male characters in RPG's. Although I tend to go for a female character first time if given a choice, on subsequent playthroughs I lean towards choosing the male option. I'm not sure why this is. Is it that the armour etc. tends to look best on the male character models? that they write the stories with a male character in mind? or that I'm just weird? :eek:

jeyeichkey
13th Nov 2011, 08:32
I'm reading the Icarus Effect and already Anna Kelso is pissing me off for being weak, too emotional and a junkie (of course otherwise she wouldn't be able to keep up with the big boys.....) I'm really hoping that will turn out okey in the end, since I'm only at chapter 7 (halfway through the book) and hopefully this is just something of a growing thing she has.. Still, annoying.

If there would be a female protagonist in future Deus Ex I rather not see another Anna Kelso. She is being so irrational and not at all "awesome trained secret agent" that she should be since she got quite the high rank, as far as I got it. Emotional is good, but it doesn't have to be over-emotional above regular levels.

I feel like there will be a lot of angry posts about this. But rather that then just silently buying whatever character comes out from the package. Women today are awesome. They are not the old 18th century, keeping in line, not been given a chance to make decisions of their own. I just hate characters like that. More awesome, no meek.

Romeo
13th Nov 2011, 08:56
...now that's just silly.


Some females may tend to be more emotionally inclined to certain things but the way we react to most things that would occur in Deus Ex games would really not be any different from a male.
Hell, I'll take that one step further: My girlfriend is the boring, logical one between the two of us. She'll buy a car based upon it's power, price and tuning options. I'll buy one because I find it intriguing. I think the archetype of "emotional woman, tough guy" rings especially false these days.

ilweran
13th Nov 2011, 12:10
I think Jensen is something of a blank slate--perhaps he must be in order to facilitate varying roleplay styles--but I never found myself noticing his "blank slateness" within the course of the game. It's such an immersive experience that I rather felt like what was happening to Jensen was happening to me. I suppose throughout the game I was filling in the blanks

I felt the same, about Jensen and moreso with JC.

Giving the enemies more character, or even just a reason to think before killing them all, was something DX1 did that HR could have learned from. Not just Herman, Navarre & Simons either, just the normal troops - I couldn't kill the UNATCO troops I'd been chatting to earlier in the game, meeting the family of a MJ12 soldier in Paris makes me less inclined to slaughter them... humanized them somewhat.

The Missing Link was more interesting than HR in making me feel a little conflicted in how to deal with enemies.
I like to play non-lethally, but I find out I'm leaving people in comas. Ok, so I'll ghost it, but some of these guys are rapists. They need to be stabbed and meet a gory end. And it doesn't seem to be a secret to anyone there that innocent people are being kidnapped. But I like to be non-lethal.

avenging_teabag
13th Nov 2011, 12:39
2. The market for games like Deus Ex is still predominantly male. For many people (male or female) it's easier to immerse yourself in a game with any plot depth when the role you play is written to be carried out by a protagonist of your gender.
For me, that's not exactly true. When I play a game where there's a choice of protagonist, i.e. Bioware/Fallout/Bethesda games, I often construct a female char and roleplay her as "me", but in the games where the lead char is more defined - Max Payne/HR/Witcher - I actually prefer to play as a male. In addition to "stepping in someone else's shoes", I also get eye-candy, so hey, best of both worlds. I never finished NOLF, on the other hand, because I got bored with Kate Archer.

Regarding the discussion if an augmented woman would be on par with (similarily) augmented men, physically, well, realistically speaking, if you pitch a man against a woman in almost any kind of physical contest, all other things being equal, the woman will lose, badly. That's why in all professional sports men and women play in different leagues. Augs won't really negate that - upgrades matter, yes, but it also matters WHAT you upgrade. However, we're talking videogames, where reality is a tertiary concern, so with a bit of ingenuity, it's perfectly viable to have a female protagonist which doesn't look silly. It's wish fulfillment, after all. Someone mentioned YT from Snowcrash somewhere - I think it would be interesting to play a character like her, relying on gadgets, bluster and wit, rather than on brute force. It's certainly viable, and if EM desides to ditch Jensen for the next game (please don't!), a female protagonist would be an interesting option.


I agree that making a Jensen mark 2 would just be lame...

...so they'll just have to stick with Jensen then :p


What she said. :)

auric
13th Nov 2011, 13:34
For me, that's not exactly true. When I play a game where there's a choice of protagonist, i.e. Bioware/Fallout/Bethesda games, I often construct a female char and roleplay her as "me", but in the games where the lead char is more defined - Max Payne/HR/Witcher - I actually prefer to play as a male. In addition to "stepping in someone else's shoes", I also get eye-candy, so hey, best of both worlds. I never finished NOLF, on the other hand, because I got bored with Kate Archer.

Regarding the discussion if an augmented woman would be on par with (similarily) augmented men, physically, well, realistically speaking, if you pitch a man against a woman in almost any kind of physical contest, all other things being equal, the woman will lose, badly. That's why in all professional sports men and women play in different leagues. Augs won't really negate that - upgrades matter, yes, but it also matters WHAT you upgrade. However, we're talking videogames, where reality is a tertiary concern, so with a bit of ingenuity, it's perfectly viable to have a female protagonist which doesn't look silly. It's wish fulfillment, after all. Someone mentioned YT from Snowcrash somewhere - I think it would be interesting to play a character like her, relying on gadgets, bluster and wit, rather than on brute force. It's certainly viable, and if EM desides to ditch Jensen for the next game (please don't!), a female protagonist would be an interesting option.

In terms of character gender choosing, u take the words out of my mouth ;)

In any game NOLF included, whether I got bored or not, I just finished it, even if I had to cheat to do so quickly & be done with it.

Now, if DX introduces a female protagonist, 1 thing they must bring back from the original.
Pepper Spray. ;)

Would love to see her spray it in their eyes & drop them sweeping their legs & do whatever she needs to in order to kill or KO them.
& I hope they don't make it effective against NPCs with a helmet. Same problem with tranq on an augmented arm / leg.
:)

ilweran
13th Nov 2011, 15:09
For me, that's not exactly true. When I play a game where there's a choice of protagonist, i.e. Bioware/Fallout/Bethesda games, I often construct a female char and roleplay her as "me", but in the games where the lead char is more defined - Max Payne/HR/Witcher - I actually prefer to play as a male. In addition to "stepping in someone else's shoes", I also get eye-candy, so hey, best of both worlds. I never finished NOLF, on the other hand, because I got bored with Kate Archer.

I like the opportunity to play as a woman, but playing a male character is fine. I generally don't find them interesting from an 'eye candy' point of view though.


Regarding the discussion if an augmented woman would be on par with (similarily) augmented men, physically, well, realistically speaking, if you pitch a man against a woman in almost any kind of physical contest, all other things being equal, the woman will lose, badly. That's why in all professional sports men and women play in different leagues. Augs won't really negate that

I disagree. I think augs would change things significantly in this respect. Why would augmented arms on a woman be weaker than on a man? Even without that, if we ignore the take downs, there's no reason why a woman can't sneak or use a gun as well as a man. Or hack.

avenging_teabag
13th Nov 2011, 15:29
I disagree. I think augs would change things significantly in this respect. Why would augmented arms on a woman be weaker than on a man?
Because it's not arms alone with which a person fights - it's the whole body. Speed, reaction time, cardiovascular capacity, body mass, reach, all that plays a role. If you gonna heap augs for all that onto a body, you're better off with full cyborg. Like I said, it doesn't really matter though, because in videogames adherence to reality is not generally an issue (unless you mean wargames or flight sims or the like).


Even without that, if we ignore the take downs, there's no reason why a woman can't sneak or use a gun as well as a man. Or hack.
Absolutely. :)

Spyhopping
13th Nov 2011, 16:24
The other day I wrote that I only wanted to continue to play a gravelly, sunglass clad, trenchcoaty bloke.

I just had a little think over that, and it was stupid. Jensen was a great nod to JC, but if things stay that way it'll doubtless become a hideous, boring cliché. Bring on a sharp, curious, realistically busted lady. Bring on girls like Malik. She was fantastic.

ilweran
13th Nov 2011, 17:16
Because it's not arms alone with which a person fights - it's the whole body. Speed, reaction time, cardiovascular capacity, body mass, reach, all that plays a role. If you gonna heap augs for all that onto a body, you're better off with full cyborg.

Ok, but most of those issues could be dealt with by augs and a woman augmented to the same level as Jensen would be a formidable opponent to just about everyone. Jensen, who is hardly a Marcus Fenix type, managed to deal with the tyrants who presumably were meant to be the best at what they did.

I agree on the doesn't have to be realistic bit though.

Jerion
14th Nov 2011, 00:37
The other day I wrote that I only wanted to continue to play a gravelly, sunglass clad, trenchcoaty bloke.

I just had a little think over that, and it was stupid. Jensen was a great nod to JC, but if things stay that way it'll doubtless become a hideous, boring cliché. Bring on a sharp, curious, realistically busted lady. Bring on girls like Malik. She was fantastic.

Absolutely agree. :thumb:

Whatever happened to Anna Kelso, anyway? I'd like to see something showing the continuation of her story.

RedKnight7
14th Nov 2011, 01:44
Just give me a good game in which to save a good girl. And I'm good. Vive la difference'.

Romeo
14th Nov 2011, 04:42
Because it's not arms alone with which a person fights - it's the whole body. Speed, reaction time, cardiovascular capacity, body mass, reach, all that plays a role. If you gonna heap augs for all that onto a body, you're better off with full cyborg. Like I said, it doesn't really matter though, because in videogames adherence to reality is not generally an issue (unless you mean wargames or flight sims or the like).


Absolutely. :)
As one of the larger guys on my Hockey and Lacrosse teams, I've been in more than a few scuffles, and virtually everything you just listed is inaccurate. Speed and reaction time can be considered the same thing, as one is useless without the other. Cardiovascular activity is a non-issue, as most fights are over within a couple minutes, long before it becomes a concern. Body mass on it's own has absolutely zero effect. That leaves reach, which admittedly has a fairly large effect on the outcome. As Federova demonstrates, reach is easily enhanced with mechanical augmentations. Speed and reflexes can also be enhanced via augmentation (As Adam has). That leaves only strength, which is also dictated exclusively by the augmented limbs themselves. So all things considered, there's still no reason why an augmented male would boast any advantage over an augmented female what-so-ever.

rokstrombo
14th Nov 2011, 06:04
Male or female, I could do with an antihero as protagonist in a new Deus Ex game. All the Deus Ex protagonists have generally been considered good by most of the other characters regardless of their actions (and have been better rewarded for being good). Jensen could be a jerk at times, but there wasn't really a lot of motivation for him to act this way most of the time because being bad made things much harder for him. A balanced female character with normal-sized boobs would be equally cliché in this regard.

Zoet
14th Nov 2011, 06:32
Male or female, I could do with an antihero as protagonist in a new Deus Ex game. All the Deus Ex protagonists have generally been considered good by most of the other characters regardless of their actions (and have been better rewarded for being good). Jensen could be a jerk at times, but there wasn't really a lot of motivation for him to act this way most of the time because being bad made things much harder for him. A balanced female character with normal-sized boobs would be equally cliché in this regard.

I like being the good guy (albeit a good guy that steals everyone's credits and candybars), and Adam as I played him always chose the gentlemanly option. That one could complete the game without killing anyone except those that the plot mandated was something that I really enjoyed, and made it feel more like you really were a the good guy, rather than just on the winning team. I haven't played the first game, but it seems to me that the the fact that the character can be so 'heroic' is almost a defining aspect of HR and perhaps even of the series.

EricaLeeV
14th Nov 2011, 06:47
Male or female, I could do with an antihero as protagonist in a new Deus Ex game. All the Deus Ex protagonists have generally been considered good by most of the other characters regardless of their actions (and have been better rewarded for being good). Jensen could be a jerk at times, but there wasn't really a lot of motivation for him to act this way most of the time because being bad made things much harder for him. A balanced female character with normal-sized boobs would be equally cliché in this regard.

I understand what you are coming from but know that an antihero, in it's own way, is very cliche when it comes to gaming protagonists (examples: Duke Nukem, Agent 47, Alex Mercer, Kratos, Marcus Fenix, Max Payne, Nico Bellic, ect...). They may even be more common than female video game protagonists in general...and that's saying something.

In video games especially, most antiheroes are characterized in a kind of 'eh' way in which they are supposed to seem just soooo badass because they don't care or something silly like that. This often leads to the characters themselves not being fleshed out particularly well because the devs may not want that antihero 'air of mystery' to be lifted.

avenging_teabag
14th Nov 2011, 08:12
As one of the larger guys on my Hockey and Lacrosse teams, I've been in more than a few scuffles, and virtually everything you just listed is inaccurate. Speed and reaction time can be considered the same thing, as one is useless without the other. Cardiovascular activity is a non-issue, as most fights are over within a couple minutes, long before it becomes a concern. Body mass on it's own has absolutely zero effect. That leaves reach, which admittedly has a fairly large effect on the outcome. As Federova demonstrates, reach is easily enhanced with mechanical augmentations. Speed and reflexes can also be enhanced via augmentation (As Adam has). That leaves only strength, which is also dictated exclusively by the augmented limbs themselves. So all things considered, there's still no reason why an augmented male would boast any advantage over an augmented female what-so-ever.
I don't think you understood me correctly (maybe I didn't express it correctly neither). Every one of the issues I listed is not the deciding factor in itself. If you "fix" one or even two of them via augments, that would still leave the rest - and I'm sure I forgot a couple of additional factors. It's a very complex issue, and if you're going to fix it all, you might as well construct a full metal body, because really, what's the point otherwise. As long as you have human flesh however, you'll have human biology to deal with.

I've played tennis fairly seriously once, admittedly there are no fights there (except over bad line calls sometimes), but the physical difference is *massive*, the raw strength, I imagine, is possibly near the bottom of the list of issues. I don't think there's a way of augmenting that up, with nanites maybe - which is really the equivalent of magic, mechanically - no way. And I'm sorry, but I find your claim that body mass has no effect of a fight unsustainable - they wouldn't be dividing the boxers into different weight categories if that was the case.

ETA: Fedorova doesn't really "demonstrate" anything, because she's fictional, and we were discussing a real, if hypothetical, situation, didn't we? I could just as well say that Major Kusanagi demonstrates this or that. Anyh00, we'll see in about 17 years, no?

Ilves
14th Nov 2011, 21:30
Body mass on it's own has absolutely zero effect.

Surely it affects leverage? I never understood how sticking two artificial arms on Adam suddenly allows him to lift up two massive guys into the air (silly take down :p) without cracking his spine.

jeyeichkey
14th Nov 2011, 21:37
@Ilves
The arms are of special design that makes the wearer ignore gravity.


;^P

Spyhopping
14th Nov 2011, 22:07
Some of the takedowns are magnificent satisfying things, but yeah, others are a bit cartoonish. Especially when you get skinny Jensen do that lifty smashy head animation on two ogres (I'm sure that happened to me quite a few times.)

The forces involved in such a huge increase in strength and weight bearing should be ripping skeleton and flesh to shreds, crushing cartilage. He has a bit of reinforcement visible upper ribcage and extensive implants all over his body anyway, so I explained it away as his skeletal structure being reinforced all around to cope with the bigger forces. More of those convenient "kinetic bleeders" huh. :P


Absolutely agree.

Whatever happened to Anna Kelso, anyway? I'd like to see something showing the continuation of her story.

I started reading Icarus Effect again this Saturday, enjoying it more second time over. Would lap up any more fiction moving on with the story, though the conclusion to the book could be a bit odd to move forward with. They are good characters, both with their flaws, keeps them interesting, relatable and human. Kelso demonstrates obsessive behaviour akin to Adam's fixation on finding Megan, and she's got a bit of a drug habit. Saxon starts out pretty blinkered and naive, doing almost exactly what he's told.

Ilves
15th Nov 2011, 18:00
Was this article (http://kotaku.com/5851800/the-tits-have-it-sexism-character-design-and-the-role-of-women-in-created-worlds) linked to before?


In describing his influences, Jacques-Bellêtete mentioned he was heavily influenced by Metal Gear and Final Fantasy. Then he went into a two minute riff about "always trying to have very beautiful female characters," noting that these were characters he would want to sleep with. After making a semi-disparaging remark about female characters drawn in a North American style, he concludes "I'd rather have female characters from Final Fantasy or Soulcalibur to sleep with." This draws chuckles from the crowd.

And there it was, the truth about character design that so many players know but most designers wouldn't usually articulate: most of the egregiously sexist character designs are based on ****ability, rather than playability.

In lieu of these quotes HR's ladies are the pinnacle of decency.

EricaLeeV
15th Nov 2011, 20:47
Was this article (http://kotaku.com/5851800/the-tits-have-it-sexism-character-design-and-the-role-of-women-in-created-worlds) linked to before?



In lieu of these quotes HR's ladies are the pinnacle of decency.

I never read that article before but now that I have I definitely have to agree with your last statement there. I hang around JJB's twitter a lot and he is usually talking about very a particular aspect of women. I didn't think he would implement that stuff in his game design though *sigh*. I'm just glad that he said the truth in the article and made a point by saying they 'tried' to break the mold a little with their main female characters.

Which is why I worry a good female protagonist cannot be pulled off correctly by this team as of now. Of course, he is not the only individual who decides on character (I assume) and thank goodness for that. Sorry JJB, you are a nice guy but....eeeeh.

Thankfully, I was happy with the representation females got in the game in general (except Zhao....eeeueuuhgh). I was proud of them for making a 'Boss'-like character in the Missing Link, I liked how Malik doesn't look just stunningly beautiful and behaves grounded, and I enjoy the older female characters like David's secretary and Adam's LIMB clinic doctor. There sure are whores around though...a lot of whores. All female whores. We go to a whore house and see only females. Surely, it can't just be girls there?

Megan is a character I'm still up in the air about...on the one hand I don't like how she kind of flip-flops and how even though she is a supposedly a scientist obsessed with her work and does nothing but work that she has a body and wardrobe like she does. Not to say some ladies out there don't have all the luck and barely have to do anything to be beautiful but come on. She probably stares at computer screens and sits at desks all day. Not only that she became the traditional female role of 'the prize' for the protagonist to achieve. Oh yeah, and she does a horrible thing to a man that loved her. If they wanted to have yet another female character I despised in the Deus Ex franchise, congratulations EM...you succeeded.

Of course DXHR is still leagues better than the original DX was about female characters. You essentially had a backstabbing Asian woman (Maggie Chow), a whore in Paris (Nicolette), someone who hated your guts all the time (Anna), and you will get your occasional party girls, prostitutes, wives, and one neat bartender. However, the original DX did have female agents you could fight; a leg up on DXHR.

Ilves
15th Nov 2011, 21:32
I don't think JJB should do female characters.


I couldn't disagree with you more! :p I love his sense of aesthetics. I love the designs for Fedorova and Megan. These girls may be a tad shallow in terms of writing, but they're sure as heck not exploited in the traditional video game girl sense.

Regarding Megan: - and I may well be reaching here :P - there was that undertone of her really being out of Adam's league, which I though was refreshing.
He's a cop walking the beat while she's rubbing elbows with the rich & famous. She's working on cutting edge, breakthrough tech while he's "not into the whole science thing". She's doing fine on her own, keeping him in the dark, betrayal and all. There's a theme of male inadequacy there if you're really looking for it. May be enough reason to dislike her, but you can't accuse her of being a traditional love interest.

Never mind JJB's occasional tumblr eye-candy posts; HR was totally tame in the sexism department.

EricaLeeV
15th Nov 2011, 21:42
I couldn't disagree with you more! :p I love his sense of aesthetics. I love the designs for Fedorova and Megan. These girls may be a tad shallow in terms of writing, but they're sure as heck not exploited in the traditional video game girl sense.

Regarding Megan: - and I may well be reaching here :P - there was that undertone of her really being out of Adam's league, which I though was refreshing.
He's a cop walking the beat while she's rubbing elbows with the rich & famous. She's working on cutting edge, breakthrough tech while he's "not into the whole science thing". She's doing fine on her own, keeping him in the dark, betrayal and all. There's a theme of male inadequacy there if you're really looking for it. May be enough reason to dislike her, but you can't accuse her of being a traditional love interest.

Never mind JJB's occasional tumblr eye-candy posts; HR was totally tame in the sexism department.


Oh yeah I forgot about Federova...and now I just remembered that her one recognizable act in the novel (which arguably characterized the Tyrants, sort of) aside from her fighting, is that she had wild spontaneous sex with the main character. Joy.

HR was pretty tame, yes. And yes you really are reaching with that Megan bit. When I read up about her character in the collector's guide it tended to stress how she has a lot of social issues because of how she was raised. Not only that the only time we ever see her in the 'Square Enix trailer form' cutscene is when she is having sex with Adam! Why would that be the only motivation for Adam to remember Megan by? I mean there is a lot more to a relationship with another person than just that; especially if they were supposedly together four years. If anything I think her character is shown to be a pawn...a means to an end. AJ was just dumb enough to hook up with her.

I love how JJB tends to reach out into other sources for his inspiration in video games and I LOVE the art design for this game endlessly. Heck, I got the Collector's guide specifically for it (even the augmented edition for the most part) but for me to like something there has to be a lot more to it than looks. I hope you get how I am understandably cautious about this team creating someone as important as a female lead. I would love to be proven wrong on this.

Rainbow6Team
15th Nov 2011, 21:42
The women in this game were poetray as weak,feeble characters.

The only good character was Malik.Maybe EM should take some cues from Mass Effect.

Ilves
15th Nov 2011, 21:59
Oh yeah I forgot about Federova...and now I just remembered that her one recognizable act in the novel (which arguably characterized the Tyrants, sort of) is that she had wild spontaneous sex with the main character. Joy.

Haven't read the novel, but I'm sure that scene was totally legit and of respectable artistic integrity. Yah. :rolleyes:


And yes you really are reaching with that Megan bit. When I read up about her character in the collector's guide it tended to stress how she has a lot of social issues because of how she was raised.[...] If anything I think her character is shown to be a pawn...a means to an end. AJ was just dumb enough to hook up with her.

It's the vibe I got from their interactions in the game; Adam being the one falling off the boat. Seriously though, I dislike how much background story for HR is presented in the novel, comics, dlc, and strat guides instead of, you know, the main product where it belongs...


I hope you get how I am understandably cautious about this team creating someone as important as a female lead. I would love to be proven wrong on this but for me to like something there has to be a lot more to it than looks.

Agreed. The looks are in the best possible hands, but the writing is exactly where HR's characters fell flat.


BTW: I must have missed the part where DX implies Nico was a prostitute? :o

Shralla
15th Nov 2011, 22:00
Was this article (http://kotaku.com/5851800/the-tits-have-it-sexism-character-design-and-the-role-of-women-in-created-worlds) linked to before?

How do you get a journalistic position while not knowing what sexism is? Because for all the times the writer cried sexism, there was literally not one instance of actual sexism mentioned in the article. She seriously threw that word around like candy on Halloween, along with repeatedly pointing out that she is a "feminist" writing "feminist" things. The whole article is seriously embarrassing.


There sure are whores around though...a lot of whores. All female whores. We go to a whore house and see only females. Surely, it can't just be girls there?

What, exactly, do you think the ratio is for male to female prostitutes? And after you pondered that, ponder whether or not some guy looking to get his rocks off wants to see almost naked dudes walking around in the same place that he's about to get his jollies.


on the one hand I don't like how she kind of flip-flops and how even though she is a supposedly a scientist obsessed with her work and does nothing but work that she has a body and wardrobe like she does. Not to say some ladies out there don't have all the luck and barely have to do anything to be beautiful but come on.

Or maybe it's not luck, and it's just hard work? Not to mention that improving your physical health also improves your mental health, so doing so would be nothing but a benefit for somebody in her position. But clearly women couldn't possibly be successful AND image-conscious.


Oh yeah, and she does a horrible thing to a man that loved her.

THIS NEVER HAPPENS. EVER.


Of course DXHR is still leagues better than the original DX was about female characters. You essentially had a backstabbing Asian woman (Maggie Chow), a whore in Paris (Nicolette), someone who hated your guts all the time (Anna), and you will get your occasional party girls, prostitutes, wives, and one neat bartender. However, the original DX did have female agents you could fight; a leg up on DXHR.

This is probably the part of your post I take the most issue with. What about Sandra Renton, who just wanted a life beyond her father's legacy? What about the rainbow variety of female scientists and the like you meet throughout the game? Jordan Shea? How is Nicolette DuClare a "whore"?

Ilves
15th Nov 2011, 22:10
How do you get a journalistic position while not knowing what sexism is? Because for all the times the writer cried sexism, there was literally not one instance of actual sexism mentioned in the article. She seriously threw that word around like candy on Halloween, along with repeatedly pointing out that she is a "feminist" writing "feminist" things. The whole article is seriously embarrassing.



You're right though. Except for the part where JJB's main drive in character design can be interpreted as "would I hit it" rather than "what makes for an interesting human being".

Which considering the level of writing in games is hardly worth getting worked up over.



But clearly women couldn't possibly be successful AND image-conscious.

Exactly the aspect I like in Megan.

EricaLeeV
15th Nov 2011, 22:26
Haven't read the novel, but I'm sure that scene was totally legit and of respectable artistic integrity. Yah. :rolleyes:

What she does is basically walk into the room where the main guy is (who just got initiated into her group), she has never really had any interactions with him, and just kind of...has sex with him. It was a very odd scene in the book to me. After that little bit they still continue their 'communication' habits of never talking to each other or anything like that.


How do you get a journalistic position while not knowing what sexism is? Because for all the times the writer cried sexism, there was literally not one instance of actual sexism mentioned in the article. She seriously threw that word around like candy on Halloween, along with repeatedly pointing out that she is a "feminist" writing "feminist" things. The whole article is seriously embarrassing.

I think the article is good about bringing up a point. Which is that females are generally not depicted well in video games (an idea which should be clear as day by now even without that article). Surely you don't disagree with that...



What, exactly, do you think the ratio is for male to female prostitutes? And after you pondered that, ponder whether or not some guy looking to get his rocks off wants to see almost naked dudes walking around in the same place that he's about to get his jollies.

From what I read general arrests in prostitution in the US in the 80s was around 70% female and 20% male (http://www.bayswan.org/stats.html) (10% customers) and that is in the US...other countries are going to be different in this regard as are the various areas of the United States. So basically the game could have added a few without 'breaking realism' or whatever.

Males prostitutes can be kept on different floors or areas from the females. Though that could have definitely been an all female brothel.



Or maybe it's not luck, and it's just hard work? Not to mention that improving your physical health also improves your mental health, so doing so would be nothing but a benefit for somebody in her position. But clearly women couldn't possibly be successful AND image-conscious.

Oh Shralla you assume I am saying that NOBODY can pull off looking nice and being an obsessive scientist. Of course they can, it's just not very usual. Megan's Mother said in the email at her desk that Megan forgot to eat all the time because she was so obsessed, but who cares about basic needs like hunger right? Making sure you look good is way more important than those silly things. It's not like eating habits affect how people look or anything. Then again...welcome to video games; where the main character's love interest has to be hot.



THIS NEVER HAPPENS. EVER.

So taking advantage of a mans DNA in one's research without telling him is not a horrible thing? That she is basing her whole discovery on it and all of her success on him and she is not going to say a thing. Maybe she was about to...but she sure went a long time without saying anything. Who knows what she did to him to extract further samples; all without his knowledge. His DNA is something that would have been prized amongst other biotech companies, and seeing how cut-throat David Sarif's competition is shouldn't she have warned him for his own safety?


Not only that she did at least get to a friendly basis with the man that ruthlessly beat up her ex and possibly killed many of her coworkers. She may even gotten more than friendly, hard to tell. Stockholm's syndrome I guess, huh?



This is probably the part of your post I take the most issue with. What about Sandra Renton, who just wanted a life beyond her father's legacy? What about the rainbow variety of female scientists and the like you meet throughout the game? Jordan Shea? How is Nicolette DuClare a "whore"?

Sandra Renton was essentially a rebellious girl who left her father out of what might have been a misunderstanding and decided to go out and work under a pimp. At least I am assuming Jo was a pimp. I might be inclined to say she can be counted under the prostitute category, but you are right she DID have more character than that.

Yes, there are female scientists just like there are female hobos walking the streets. For me those are more or less the same thing in that there SHOULD be that kind of variety anyway.

I mentioned Jordon Shea by saying 'one neat bartender'.

I would say Nicolette is a whore more because of how she seems to live on the town (however, just because she partied all the time doesn't mean she whored herself out but she sure dressed like one) and tended to talk about her sexual tendencies a little when JC and her walked outside the manor; but again, you are right she is a more fleshed out than just a whore.


BTW: I must have missed the part where DX implies Nico was a prostitute? :o

I never said she was a prostitute. I said she might be a whore. Those are two different things.

Ilves
15th Nov 2011, 23:13
I said she might be a whore.

Maybe in terms of fashion sense, I'll give you that. :D

EricaLeeV
15th Nov 2011, 23:17
Maybe in terms if fashion sense, I'll give you that. :D

Yep. Otherwise at least she tried to fight Majestic 12; though mostly due to her idealistic boyfriend Chad and partially because of what it meant in passing of her mother. She seemed rather apathetic to that whole situation to me.

Romeo
16th Nov 2011, 00:05
I don't think you understood me correctly (maybe I didn't express it correctly neither). Every one of the issues I listed is not the deciding factor in itself. If you "fix" one or even two of them via augments, that would still leave the rest - and I'm sure I forgot a couple of additional factors. It's a very complex issue, and if you're going to fix it all, you might as well construct a full metal body, because really, what's the point otherwise. As long as you have human flesh however, you'll have human biology to deal with.

I've played tennis fairly seriously once, admittedly there are no fights there (except over bad line calls sometimes), but the physical difference is *massive*, the raw strength, I imagine, is possibly near the bottom of the list of issues. I don't think there's a way of augmenting that up, with nanites maybe - which is really the equivalent of magic, mechanically - no way. And I'm sorry, but I find your claim that body mass has no effect of a fight unsustainable - they wouldn't be dividing the boxers into different weight categories if that was the case.

ETA: Fedorova doesn't really "demonstrate" anything, because she's fictional, and we were discussing a real, if hypothetical, situation, didn't we? I could just as well say that Major Kusanagi demonstrates this or that. Anyh00, we'll see in about 17 years, no?
And sure, if I were to compare say, playing Hockey, then yes, the things you listed would have a clear effect on outcome. But as I said, the fights themselves are insultingly simple affairs. You win by being quicker, stronger or by reach. You could have such bad cardio, for example, that a quick stroll around the block would leave you with chest pains - in a fight, you still have a fantastic chance at winning, you don't need to exert yourself for very long at all. The reason fighters are classed by weight is because raw strength and raw height (Reach) involve more weight, so pitting a fairly short, or weaker fighter against a 6'5" 260ibs of muscle opponent is entirely unfair. The mass itself means nothing though. If I had as much muscle as someone else, and were just as tall, it wouldn't matter if they had an extra 40ibs or not, it wont benefit them.

And we are still ultimately discussing a future Deus Ex game possibly featuring a female protagonist. In such an example, Federova is a very important example, being one of the few augmented individuals who've extended the length of limbs. The other facts were simply backing the point that realistically, a male would hold absolutely zero advantage over a female. (Save for the ability to write one's name in the snow)

Surely it affects leverage? I never understood how sticking two artificial arms on Adam suddenly allows him to lift up two massive guys into the air (silly take down :p) without cracking his spine.
Not particularly no. Essentially speaking, a punch falls in to one of two reactions: Torque, or leverage. Torque comes from swinging ones upper body sideways with a punch, to add more force to the blow (Think haymakers). Leverage is used in jabs and uppercuts, essentially speaking by "exploding" outwards once lined up.

Yeah, that's dumb, I agree. I suppose the fact he has an augmented skeleton is why it doesn't break, but from a raw physics standpoint he should fall over from such an action. lol

brangdon
18th Nov 2011, 18:28
If you make a deus ex game wich allows you to choose between male and female character then the choice will be kind of shallow. But if you make two different kind of charters (male and female) wich play in (totally) different way then it might work, but does the development team have the time or the money to create multiple different paths for two different charters? I dont think so.At the risk of seeming sexist, they could have some kind of skills system that gave different initial scores to different genders. Mostly, though, I agree with you. I don't see much point in a gender choice unless it makes a real difference.


So if theres going to be choice between male and female charters, it would be ultimately shallow. Also if a game has only female as a playable character, then thats enough for me to not to purchase the game in the first place, not that I would hate women or anything like that but I just really dont want to be a woman in my games. No offense to anybody but thats how I feel.That's a shame. I think there are stories and interactions that could be better told with a female protagonist. DX is partly about transhumanism and body-morphing and that raises different issues when the body is female. For example, with the prostitutes who were being forced to have upgrades that would enable them to serve their clients better.


What do you mean here? That Deus Ex forced the player to be male? This is OK in my eyes because the game, JC's interactions with characters like Sandra Renton and Maggie Chow could be fully developed this way.Agreed. And if DX forced the character to be female, those encounters could still be fully realised; just differently.