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shadowwoelf
9th Nov 2011, 03:12
Although Deus Ex: Human Revolution was a fun game I couldn't get past the level design.

I understand that creating a level that has multiple paths is pretty hard to do, but there are some things that are plain silly.

Air vent problems:

Sometimes connects only two rooms which makes no logical sense in placement
Able to hold a 200-300 pound cyborg that can move comfortably and silently
Most vents have human sized exit/entrances, when the goal of the vent is to provide air at desired temperature


Security design problems:

Hacking a storage container is harder then the laser gird system...
Laser trip wires where all you have to do is time it right to get around
Only specific walls can be punched through.


What is everyones thoughts on the level design?

Fireisprettyful
9th Nov 2011, 03:30
you make some valid points but i think the level design is very good just my opinion, some walls can be punched through because they are weak and the other walls are stronger, air vents dont need to be that big but considering the game is about multiple ways to complete most levels then without air vents then the game would not be as good imo

i think they do well, lots of different ways to get to most area's but your right about the air vents not making sense as in they are too big and sometimes they just connect 2 rooms together but i think air vents would be able to hold a person if they were able to get into it depends on the structure really but they are part of a building that should be strong structurally and most things in the building would have to be built strong.

also i see a few problems with enemies and camera's, we have to get to a point and enemies should stand in door ways and put turrets in door ways to stop us from being able to stealth our way into the restricted area's but tbh it would be more realistic that way but it would be so much less fun

jtr7
9th Nov 2011, 05:25
Air vents are rarely that strong, and never that quiet to move anything in. They do not hold much weight but their own in buildings, and have no part in supporting the structure they hang from/rest upon. They are not load-bearing structures. As for multiple routes, real buildings typically have many potential entrance/exit points, especially of breaking through things is a major factor. I haven't noticed, yet, but can Adam punch through doors? Why can't he punch out window frames when the glass panes are too small, or punch through a roof and drop in? For an ex-SWAT guy, he should be able to enter buildings like the SWAT can, and for a game that encourages direct confrontation, he shouldn't have a naked head. When he punches through a wall with a person on the other side, why does the person remain standing and oblivious to it all for Adam to snap the neck?

It's silly. Keep in mind I'm not speaking to the fun or coolness or acceptability.

TrickyVein
9th Nov 2011, 12:58
Air vent problems:

Sometimes connects only two rooms which makes no logical sense in placement
Able to hold a 200-300 pound cyborg that can move comfortably and silently
Most vents have human sized exit/entrances, when the goal of the vent is to provide air at desired temperature



This is a hallmark of the design philosophy which drives a Deus Ex title. It is one of the only features that is common to all three. When I play other games, like Riddick which gives you ventilation systems to use I always think back to Deus Ex and its excellently designed "secret passages" disguised as ventilation.

jeyeichkey
9th Nov 2011, 21:11
Vents are part of the Deus Ex concept, as TrickyVein said. And Adam crouches and moves silently for the most part in the vents. But to fit his size with armor!? Could be a whole different topic to discuss..
Was it just me or was the vents in DX:HR actually bigger than in DX1?
Also, some vents have further passage, but those vents are blocked by a unmoving fan.

Wasn't the laser trip wires that could be passed without hacking only something from Missing Link? I never saw any in the game (or I was just too eager to hack the terminal to notice).

And I just have to say: ladders. Biggest thank you-ever! for EM to make the square-button to climb a ladder and not falling from it. If there were any contest in falling from ladders, I would be world champion. The master of falling down ladders. El grando faller. Yep.. great that they fixed that.

pukster
11th Nov 2011, 19:55
they approached the game differently in HR as opposed to DX. In HR they created levels so there would be multiple points of entry. That's why you get bizarre vents connecting two rooms, or a cracked wall next to a locked door and a high wall to jump over...

In DX they made realistic set pieces, like the statue of liberty with realistic points of entry (we're talking millions of tourists a year, obviously there's gonna be more than 2 points of entry). Even the ventilation systems seemed more like ventilation systems which ran through the ceilings, branched out, and spanned far longer distances.

AlexOfSpades
11th Nov 2011, 22:58
Exactly, Pukster.

They should design the buildings following realistic measurements and layouts. This would already feature the multipath approach.

Take a mall, for example. It has multiple entrances for customers, and also the back-doors for employees. It also has air-vents through all main areas and offices and connections to the rooftop. Lastly, it could even have a sewer entrance connected to a drainage room from the toilets.

Multi-path enough?

ECM_specialist
12th Nov 2011, 00:07
Air vent problems:

Sometimes connects only two rooms which makes no logical sense in placement
Able to hold a 200-300 pound cyborg that can move comfortably and silently
Most vents have human sized exit/entrances, when the goal of the vent is to provide air at desired temperature


Security design problems:

Hacking a storage container is harder then the laser gird system...
Laser trip wires where all you have to do is time it right to get around
Only specific walls can be punched through.


What is everyones thoughts on the level design?
You see, with ventilation it absolutely makes sense, if you think about it for a second from other points of view besides security.
That is: the ventilation and other equipment should be ACCESSIBLE for maintenance, and its NOT always convenient to do from outside. In a number of cases, it is much simpler to make duct big enough so maintenance man could make it to the equipment. For this exactly reasons it's often connects just two rooms, can support average-sized man and rather big(32"x32"). Because its MAINTENANCE passageways, used simultaneously as air ducts.

About laser tripwires: I bet they use IR lasers, invisible to ordinary people. Adam has augmentation to see it.

WIP_4G
12th Nov 2011, 20:47
I found te level design rather good. The level's felt real and alive, and not too enclosed (well, mostly.) The only issue I really had was that the layout of Hengsha got a bit too confusing.

Plus the developers couldn't make all of the walls in the game destructable. It'd be too complex and unbalanced.

pukster
13th Nov 2011, 00:28
Here's another stupid level design (didn't bother me too much). Before getting to Zhao's office they have those laser's sweeping across the floor. The idea is that it is supposed to be more secure. But surely whoever designed it realized that it sweeps far too slowly, and leaves a human size gap in the middle. It's like that laser scene in Oceans 12, but with only two lasers instead of 512, and the movement is painfully predictable.

pukster
13th Nov 2011, 00:30
I found te level design rather good. The level's felt real and alive, and not too enclosed (well, mostly.) The only issue I really had was that the layout of Hengsha got a bit too confusing.


The complexity didn't bother me, but what did was that they spaced out the missions to pad the length of the game. Like you go as far west as possible to learn you have to go all the way east again.

[FGS]Shadowrunner
13th Nov 2011, 03:19
DX3 is interesting because it departs from the DX1 level design formula, but somehow is still very DX.

Every single map in DX1 has a vent/back door of some sort, and of course is a night scene.

jeyeichkey
13th Nov 2011, 07:50
@above post
And rain, right? The constant sound of thunder and subtile sound of raindrops (or that last part might have been my imagination) felt like there only was one type of weather. It worked fine with Detroit. One could almost smell the wet tarmac.
Hensha was dark because of the big roof and pillars of upper Hengsha and the pangu. But that was quite sweet anyway. Such a treat to be able to see the sun once at the TYM. Too bad I was playing an agent and couldn't take a stroll in the park one fine saturday afternoon. :^)

brangdon
18th Nov 2011, 18:47
Wasn't the laser trip wires that could be passed without hacking only something from Missing Link? I never saw any in the game (or I was just too eager to hack the terminal to notice).There are a few in the main game. One in the police station sewer entrance (near the morgue). One in the server room (on the way to Zhao's place), at the back right when facing the exit. There are probably others I forget.

And of course, all the lasers disabled automatically when a guard approached them. That makes a lot of them easy to get through by shoulder-surfing a guard, or knocking one out and dragging the body.

Mrow
20th Nov 2011, 22:49
Hacking a storage container is harder then the laser gird system...

...What? Oh god you're right.

Personally, everything was too easy to find for me. Panchaea was the only location where I actually missed a few secret areas. That was just my experience, though.

Rockn-Roll
23rd Nov 2011, 16:30
Yeah...air vents which are large and strong enough for a full-grown man to crawl around in is very unrealistic; however, it can be justified. The vents which only connect two rooms also have a fan i.e. connects to other venting and to an A/C unit, so that's not an issue. As with all science fiction there needs to be some imagination involved by the reader/player. In this case we, as the players, must assume that this is normal for the circumstances. For example let's assume that the building was designed with military strategy in mind and the venting and passages are there just in case the building is compromised...allowing operatives to hide in the vents and retake the building.

As for the security systems...this is actually realistic because the ease of a hack depends on the available tools that a hacker has. For example the security for the laser systems could have a bypass which is well known by hackers and the storage lockers have been designed by a less common company for which there is no common bypass. This is typical...a hacker can only carry so many tools, equipment, and info. The logical choice is to carry the ability to bypass the highest security systems which without those tools, equipment, and info hacking would take a very long time or be nearly impossible. The weaker security systems don't need anything more than basic knowledge such as recognizing which wire to cut. The hacking mini-game is not very intuitive as far as real hacking of security systems is concerned, but is somewhat similar to hacking a computer network in search of data.

When it doesn't seem realistic then rest assured that using your imagination can make the game enjoyable.

Harill
25th Nov 2011, 20:33
I'd say less air vents. Keep them in factories and warehouses but remove them from smaller buildings. Also, add more vent openings (not just two). While the levels seemed big, there were times that I felt I couldn't go anywhere. Can't I buy a ticket and ride the tram to a different part of the city? I'd also like to be able to buy food from NPC's and use/eat it to gain health (you can do this with alcohol, so why not food).

I'd like to see most, if not all floors/rooms/offices in a building accessible. Plus more closets, be a nice place to hide bodies. More buildings having sewer access. Maybe doors that can be kicked in if you like to go that route. Also it would be nice if you were able to open/shoot more windows to allow access. Being able to barricade yourself into a room would be nice (this means being able to move furniture).

Let's say you need to get in an apartment on the 4th floor. Repel from a spot on the roof, when you get to the floor you can open/shoot out (depending if you trying to be stealthy or not) the window and access the apartment. Then you can climb back to the roof or slide down the rope to another floor (or to street level) where you can make your escape.

Also make more lights operational. You can have the option of shooting the lights out or shutting them off (this goes for invidual lights as well as overhead lighting). It'd be awesome if you could sneak your way into a buildings basement, find the main power switch, and shut it off, darkening the whole place, (this would make computers, and key pads unaccessible). Now if you are there to plant evidence or assassinate someone, then computer/keypad access is not your concern. Then when the job is done, turn the switch back on (if the bad guys didn't do that already) and escape.

Another thought, make it so I can stop the elevator on a floor I choose, get out in the access panel at the top of the elevator and pry open the doors of the next floor. It would also be nice if you could cut power to the elevator trapping enemies inside. They could trap you also but the access panel is your way out.

Jensen doesn't have night vision? WTF? I really like the "see through walls" aug.

I have more ideas also.

recogn1zer
2nd Dec 2011, 01:53
it is set in 2027.
how do we know air vent construction doesn't improve in the next 16 years to the point it is capable of holding a 250 pound man carrying a rocket launcher. ;)
But all are good points being made.
I think I had more problems with enemy AIs than level design. Wish the AI would notice when one of there buddy's went missing from his route and would go looking for him briefly, how cool would that be?