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elpin
21st Oct 2011, 12:40
Hey guys, new here.

I've just started playing Deus Ex HR and I'm in a first mission confronting the Purists leader Zeke. For some reason to me the options what I tell him don't make any sense.

When I go into the manufacturing plant my only info is that there are some terrorists keeping hostages. I don't know the reasons nor their intents. Now I go through the plant and get to the boss. And suddenly I'm telling him that "I also want to find out who is behind this."

I 'also'?? And behind what??

How do I know these terrorists want the same thing as I do? For all I know they just want to shoot my boss for making Augmentations since they don't like that, right? And how come that I know there is something big going on? For all I know there was an attack in the HQ after technologies and now some terrorist freaks attacked a manufacturing plant. They don't seem to relate at all.

Also why is it such a big deal that they have a guy hacking there with some implants in his brain. Again, for all I know they just forced some guy and then killed him to avoid being interrogated. Yes, you can connect a lot of stuff at some point but it's just too soon to go the terrorist leader and start telling him that we both want the same thing. It's like skipping a part of the plot or something.

Could you please tell me if I missed something or if you feel the same about this? Thanks!

Otherwise Deus Ex HR rocks! But I miss the plot subtlety of the original Deus Ex...

celozzip
21st Oct 2011, 12:54
i cant remember all the details but the terrorists are against using augmentations right? so they take hostages in the aug manufacturing plant. we find the terrorist hacker trying to steal the typhoon device. the hacker also has implants - which go against the terrorists beliefs. but the terrorist leader when confronted knows nothing of typhoon or that his hacker has an implant which implies someone else planted him there to steal the typhoon. the terrorists are being manipulated. later on we see that theres a cover up concering the hacker's implants which is why you need to break in to the morgue to steal evidence from the hacker's brain. from this we get to the source of the signal that was controlling the hacker remotely.

i've only just got past the first boss so i wont go on, but thats how i remember it so far. also, you knwo you dont have to be pals with zeke right? you can kill him if you want, you dont have to be 'after the same thing' i talked him out of killing his hostage and let him go. unfortunately i hadnt bothered with the hostages earlier and they were all dead at the end of the mission hehe.

zenstar
21st Oct 2011, 13:24
*minor spoilers ahead if you haven't played this mission*
When you discover the augmented hacker and he shoots himself it's pretty obvious he's being controlled by someone (he says something like "help me" before pulling the trigger) and teh terrorists are all anti-aug, yet this guy is definitely aug'ed.
It's a fairly logical conclusion that someone is using the anti-aug terrorists to get their hacker into the building so that they can steal data. And since the terrorists are being used by some shadowy guy behind the scenes then it's obvious that they're going to be a bit miffed that they're being used.

Both of you want to find the guy really behind things. You because he's messing with your company and may be involved in the original attack, the anti-aug terrorists because they got played by this guy and will want revenge.

elpin
21st Oct 2011, 13:36
Guys, thank you for the comments but I'm not past Mission 1 yet. In fact I quit the game before I finished the Zeke thing and went here to ask about developments so please no spoilers.

Celozzip: you say: "the terrorist leader when confronted knows nothing of typhoon." But that's not there. Nobody mentions the typhoon in the chat with him. Adam only mentions that they have an augmented hacker which Zeke doesn't believe. But that's it. I still can't see how you can figure out from so little information that the Terrorists are being played. I mean, yes, you can suspect something, but you can't be so sure as to negotiate a hostage with an unconfirmed suspicion.

Also, why are the terrorists there in the first place? What do they want? Nobody said why they are there before or during Mission 1 so Adam is telling Zeke that they both want the same thing but he can't know this yet.

Quillan
21st Oct 2011, 13:46
The Purity First crew is there because they've been manipulated into it. Their belief is that augmentation is wrong, and that Sarif Industries is doing something both wrong and illegal. Zeke has been convinced that they can find proof of lawbreaking in the plant, which is why they go in. Unfortunately, the guy who convinced him of that turns out to have augments, thus meaning the entire thing is a setup.

Adam and Zeke go in with different goals: Adam is there to save the Typhoon and rescue the hostages, Zeke is there to find proof that Sarif is breaking the law in the hope of shutting them down. The hacker that Adam finds in the factoring labs is proof that an outside third party is manipulating the situation, and both of them (should) want to learn who that third party is.

elpin
21st Oct 2011, 14:02
Thanks Quillan.

But how do you know that Zeke needed any convincing into breaking into the plant? All we know is that they are convinced they find a proof. Well, if their belief is that Sarif is doing something illegal it's only logical they would go to the plant and try to find the proof. In the end, they are the terrorists. I don't really see any manipulation in this. Maybe later in the game it will be revealed but at the very moment, no manipulation obvious.

I just still don't understand how Adam can say "I also want to find out who is behind this".

Like you said yourself, manipulated or not, the terrorist are there for different reason than Adam. And suddenly they both want the same thing without any one of them discussing anything.

elpin
21st Oct 2011, 14:14
I just played the whole conversation over again and right after Zeke denies to have an augmented guy on his team i have an option to tell him that I also want to get to the bottom of this. To the bottom of what? Why he had an augmented guy on his team? Why should I care? Probably some stupid terrorist guy brought his friend over without knowing he has brain implants. We've all seen the movies.

After that I have an option to tell him that I'm not sure what's going on but I'm sure that it's big. How can I be sure it's big?? Just because he didn't know he has an augmented guy on his team?

Adam makes big conclusions based only on one indirect evidence - an augmented guy on Zeke's team that Zeke doesn't know about. It just doesn't make sense.

Imperator
21st Oct 2011, 14:49
Heightened instincts, hunches, emphatic emotion and paranoia are probably the norm in such a situation. It's a hostage negotiation, not a court hearing lol. Adam has to relate to him in some way and make the terrorist believe he's not his enemy. Plus, it's a conspiracy story...paranoia and perceived plots are what it's all about.

elpin
21st Oct 2011, 15:13
I won't even start on explaining how wrong you are.

Platinumoxicity
21st Oct 2011, 15:14
You should try to overhear what the terrorists are talking about as they're mumbling to themselves while digging around in the plant. Also, two of them near the offices are talking about Zeke, and wondering how they can get out of the situation, since nobody has found anything that they came there to expose. They didn't come there to take hostages and issue demands. They came there to expose Sarif's involvement in secret military projects and shape public opinion on the trustworthiness of augmentation corporations.

The hacker convinced Zeke and his team that Sarif was doing secret augmentation research for military purposes, and that they could find evidence of it in the plant so that Zeke could show the world that augmentation manufacturers can't be trusted to have humanity's best interests in mind. All the PF terrorists are digging around for that evidence, but find nothing, because the Typhoon was just moved in, and didn't enter production yet. Only the hacker knew that the Typhoon was there, and he tried to use the PF terrorist attack as a way to gain access to it. He also knew that since the Typhoon was just moved there recently, there wouldnt' be any trace of "illegal activities" in the factory itself, so that would buy him time to get the Typhoon while the rest of the Terrorists dig around for evidence that isn't there. The person behind the hacking was confident that the terrorist attack that was made to fail would work as a cover, and the augmented hacker wouldn't be discovered doing what he was doing, or he would be a casualty of the SWAT raid, or he would "commit suicide" in the face of danger of being sent to prison for terrorism.

If Adam wouldn't have been there, it would have been just a failed terrorist attack with lots of collateral damage, and nobody would have discovered that one of the terrorists was actually augmented and sent there to recover the Typhoon. The people behind the operation didn't account for Jensen's intervention.

It didn't make sense for me either at first, because I wasn't paying enough attention. But Adam did my thinking for me.

zenstar
21st Oct 2011, 15:32
I found the logic pretty straight forward.
As Platinumoxicity says: there are clues all over the place if you take your time.

The augmented hacker is a massive clue though. Why would an augmented hacker be working with Purity Fist? He's obviously up to no good behind Zeke's back.
Also: Before talking about "both wanting the same thing" Adam talks to Zeke about the augmented hacker and Zeke is incredulous. Zeke realises he's being played. They wouldn't have launched an attack like this if they didn't believe they would get incriminating evidence (you overhear the purity fist guys talking about this here and there).
It's pretty obvious from the cutscene with the hacker that soemone from outside is taking advantage of the situation.
Both you and Zeke know that there's someone else pulling the strings. You both have reasons to find out who that person is.

elpin
21st Oct 2011, 15:36
Thanks for the long post Platinumoxicity.

Okay, I can see that after hearing all the talks from individual terrorists and finding the hacker and then Zeke denying the hacker you could make it out somehow that it's manipulated but it still far fetched to me.

I did listen to some of the guys and they do express concern about the mission but it still could have been their plan or Zeke's plan because of hatred for Sarif. It doesn't necessarily mean they were manipulated.

Also how do you know that the hacker convinced Zeke? As far as I know it wasn't said anywhere or was it?

Either way, I think the player should be the one to suspect and put together all the clues, not Adam. If the game is written well then the clues are served well and in good number - like in a good movie. It shouldn't be necessary to listen to random terrorist talk to figure out the story. Also suspecting that it's a conspiracy right in the first mission is just too soon for me. Like I said, I loved the original Deus Ex. You were in for 6 missions before you even started to realize there is something phony about all this...

elpin
21st Oct 2011, 15:51
Thanks for all your comments guys. I read it all and I have to say the problem is a poor story writing.

Only now after many words and after hours of thinking this through I realize how Adam could get to that conclusion that Zeke is being manipulated. And it's not good to reveal this for the player. You have to let the player come to that conclusion himself or after some time of familiarizing himself with the game. Not scream this out loud in Mission 1.

Besides it's just illogical that a man such as Adam when he's in a life threatening situation and playing for people's lives should come and put all the strings together in one minute during the conversation with Zeke. He should make his job, get rid of the terrorist guy, accept the congratulations of a job well done and then go home. Sit on his sofa and start thinking about a past day and get it all together and only after that realize that this might all have been a set up. It would be intriguing for the player and would have some logic. This way it's just too rushed.

For me I'm a bit disappointed with the game :-(

elpin
21st Oct 2011, 15:57
I found the logic pretty straight forward.
As Platinumoxicity says: there are clues all over the place if you take your time.

But that's exactly it. You don't take your time because you're going in stealth and hope to not be discovered. You have your hands full by waiting for the right window of opportunity to get to this or that door. Not think about plots and hidden clues. In the end Adam doesn't know there is conspiracy somewhere. Me as a player of Deus Ex I EXPECT a conspiracy and yet I don't see it while Adam does. It's just weird.

Imperator
21st Oct 2011, 16:02
I won't even start on explaining how wrong you are.

Probably because you can't. Don't blame others for your lack of imagination.

Part of a game like this is understanding things in retrospect, as you progress and learn more. There's also a dialogue option with Sarif where he pretty much admits he's working on a hunch anyway. Then let's not forget he probably has extensive neural augments to make him think better. Maybe he's supposed to be ahead of the player? Did you consider that?

Platinumoxicity
21st Oct 2011, 16:24
But that's exactly it. You don't take your time because you're going in stealth and hope to not be discovered. You have your hands full by waiting for the right window of opportunity to get to this or that door. Not think about plots and hidden clues.

That doesn't make any sense to me. In stealth games you go slowly forward, and end up seeing, and more importantly hearing much more than what you would see or hear in a hurry with guns blazing. "Taking your time" is exactly what you do with stealth.

elpin
21st Oct 2011, 16:43
Probably because you can't. Don't blame others for your lack of imagination.

So your answer to a bad script is my lack of imagination?

I'm sorry but that's exactly the reason why I don't want to go into debating your arguments because they have no sense. What you're saying is only what you imagine of the game to be. You're not listening to the script, you're not trying to understand. You just figure it all out on your own.

Moreover now I'll have to listen to you defending your arguments while most certainly you'll be rude and offensive.... but that's how it is I fear.

By the way, the main character in a movie/game/book can never be ahead of the player. It's like saying that the gardener is the killer at the beginning of the book.


That doesn't make any sense to me. In stealth games you go slowly forward, and end up seeing, and more importantly hearing much more than what you would see or hear in a hurry with guns blazing. "Taking your time" is exactly what you do with stealth.

No no, that's only an appearance. Of course when you take your time you hear and see much more than if you go in guns blazing but it's only a side effect. You don't take your time to THINK about what's happening. You take your time to not being discovered and ultimately you're thinking about your goal and how to get there.

Of course you can pick a nice calm office, sit there and think about anything in the world for hours but that is possible only in the game and is hardly realistic. And, nobody does that :-)

Imperator
21st Oct 2011, 16:48
That doesn't make any sense to me. In stealth games you go slowly forward, and end up seeing, and more importantly hearing much more than what you would see or hear in a hurry with guns blazing. "Taking your time" is exactly what you do with stealth.

Yeah but not only that, there are different clues for different play styles. It's difficult to uncover everything by just sticking to one game style (though maybe not impossible). It's a game that's built for multiple replays, for uncovering more each time and piecing together your understanding more and more with each successive playthrough. What kind of conspiracy adventure would it be if you understood everything about what's happening as it's happening?

Platinumoxicity
21st Oct 2011, 16:51
No no, that's only an appearance. Of course when you take your time you hear and see much more than if you go in guns blazing but it's only a side effect. You don't take your time to THINK about what's happening. You take your time to not being discovered but ultimately you're thinking about your goal and how to get there.

That wouldn't happen in a smarter game that gives you minimal hints about your "goals". In Thief, you have a map with too few details to rely solely on, and there are no objective markers. You need to find that all out by yourself, by listening, observing and reading. The only times that sort of happens in DXHR is in the very first mission, with the matter of the hostages, and at another time that I won't spoil at this time.

Don't focus on what the map shows to be your "goal". Explore and investigate by yourself. Of course if your focus is only on getting through the level, you will miss important stuff.

elpin
21st Oct 2011, 16:53
What kind of conspiracy adventure would it be if you understood everything about what's happening as it's happening?

And that's EXACTLY what Adam does at the end of Mission 1. Just puts it all together in one minute after one go ;)

Imperator
21st Oct 2011, 16:54
And that's EXACTLY what Adam does at the end of Mission 1. Just puts it all together in one minute after one go ;)

Adam's not the one the developers are trying to entertain.

elpin
21st Oct 2011, 17:03
You're suggesting that by strange Adam's revelation that Zeke is being manipulated BEFORE a player has a chance to realize it himself is a developer's effort to gently push you into playing the game again?

Well, the idea itself is intriguing but hardly fun for a typical player and I doubt that was the developer's intention. Like I said, you're just trying to use your imagination to patch the holes in the script.

Imperator
21st Oct 2011, 17:07
I can understand how you want to BE the character in every way. But this game isn't a full RPG....you're as much an observer as a participant. It's unfortunate that you don't enjoy it as much as you hoped you would. Perhaps you expected something different, perhaps you're used to RPG's and set-piece narratives. The game is what it is, and while I can totally respect that it's just not your sort of thing, I find it objectionable that you would criticise the writing just because the way the game is made doesn't allow for full RPG when it was never said to be one. Many here greatly admire the game's obvious intention to stimulate endless thought, debate, conspiracy theories and speculation. It's a journey of discovery for the long term. You have your opinion, of course....but I'm hoping that you'll see things differently eventually.

elpin
21st Oct 2011, 17:08
That wouldn't happen in a smarter game that gives you minimal hints about your "goals". In Thief, you have a map with too few details to rely solely on, and there are no objective markers. You need to find that all out by yourself, by listening, observing and reading. The only times that sort of happens in DXHR is in the very first mission, with the matter of the hostages, and at another time that I won't spoil at this time.

Don't focus on what the map shows to be your "goal". Explore and investigate by yourself. Of course if your focus is only on getting through the level, you will miss important stuff.

Yes of course, Thief was a game with much slower pace. I loved how I read all the papers uncovering the conspiracies. The Metal Age was for me THE BEST game for a looong long time. But Deus Ex is different. You have a hostage situation so you have to be quick. Adam as a character in the game has to be quick. He has hardly the time to look around and read stuff even if you as a player can do that. That's why it's just stupid for Adam to get it all together right on the mission.

Imperator
21st Oct 2011, 17:30
You're suggesting that by strange Adam's revelation that Zeke is being manipulated BEFORE a player has a chance to realize it himself is a developer's effort to gently push you into playing the game again?

Well, the idea itself is intriguing but hardly fun for a typical player and I doubt that was the developer's intention. Like I said, you're just trying to use your imagination to patch the holes in the script.

There's no hole in the script. He practically admits to working on instincts in his debrief with Sarif, and Sarif actually shouts at him for it and questions his judgement.

imported_BoB_
21st Oct 2011, 19:16
It keeps getting better and better :lol:


You're suggesting that by strange Adam's revelation that Zeke is being manipulated BEFORE a player has a chance to realize it himself is a developer's effort to gently push you into playing the game again?

Well, the idea itself is intriguing but hardly fun for a typical player and I doubt that was the developer's intention. Like I said, you're just trying to use your imagination to patch the holes in the script.

Do you write yourself the answer that Adam tells to Zeke?

No.

Coming here after just finishing the first mission, without paying attention to any information during the mission and without searching or talking to people, and without knowing what comes next. This is what is far fetched.
Besides, with just the 3 cutscenes, you understand all there is to know about the situation anyway. If you're not able to make the connexions, it's not because of the game.

First cutscene: Pro-human purists. Adam guess that they are related to the first attack because of the Typhoon ties.
Second cutscene: Pro-human with an augmented on their team. Weird. And he was manipulating the Typhoon.
Third cutscene: Josie Thorpe tells Adam that Zeke is searching about illegal activities, so nothing related to the Typhoon. So if the fact that the guy was augmented wasn't enough, if the fact that he kills himself saying help me wasn't enough (with what Pritchard says after the cutscene), Adam knows now that he hadn't the same mission that Zeke's crew.
The mercenaries have attacked Sarif HQ because of Megan's research (Adam knows only that). A man has infiltrated a red herring attack for manipulating one of Megan research. So there is obviously a connexion between these two facts.

If you talked to the cop at the beginning of the mission, you learned more about Zeke, but Adam knows it too because there is the veteran information during the first cutscene on Sarif log. Besides, Adam is a ex-SWAT guy, so he obviously knows how to handle a situation like that and how to relate to the hostage-taker, even if he wasn't saying the truth (or the fact that the player didn't understand from where it's coming from would be more likely), it would still be coherent.

Itkovian
21st Oct 2011, 19:20
Why is it such a big leap that Zeke and his men were being manipulated?

It is quite simple: Purity First is an anti-aug organization, so much so that their leader (Zeke) had his augmentations ripped out.

And yet in their midst is an augmented hacker, whom when you catch in the process of hacking Sarif's computer then blows his own brains out (and strangely enough, it looks like it's against his own will).

It is therefore very easy to tell that something abnormal is going on here: since when do radical purist have suicidal cyber hackers? The answer is of course they do not.

From there you can conclude that somehow these terrorists are being manipulated, that this cyber-hacker was planted in their group or otherwise infiltrated them in order to carry out someone else's agenda under the cover of a Purity First attack.

And that's it, all the data is available for you to put 2 and 2 together even if you rush through the level and don't bother reading anything. You are TOLD those are purists led by a guy who even had his own augs removed, and yet you find a augged up cyber hacker who appears to blow his own brains out against his own will. That's got to set off a few alarm bells.

Beyond that, let's remember that this is Deus Ex. Part of the thrill of the game is for us, the PLAYER, to put 2 and 2 together on our own. To figure out what is going on. Eventually the game is going to spell it out for us (like when Adam talks to Zeke and tells him he's being manipulated), but the fact it gives us the time and opportunity to put the pieces together is PRECISELY what makes the game (and DX1, naturally) so great.

And I'm pretty sure most of the fans here figured out what was going on as well, that they realized Purity First was somehow being used before meeting Zeke.

Itkovian

elpin
21st Oct 2011, 19:36
Guys when I read your comments I can't help but notice that you're confusing what Adam should know/suspect and what a player should know/suspect. It's two entirely different things.

Personally I just don't think there is enough clues AND TIME for Adam to put those 2 and 2 together to offer this "I want the same thing as you do" crap to the leader of a terrorist group which is pointing a gun to the head of a hostage.
And there is certainly not enough clues for the player who is new to the universe to put 2 and 2 together to not be surprised by that revelation. Come on! The clues and the revelation happens in just one mission!

Anyway, I see the clues, I get it now. I just hope the rest of the game will be a bit slower than revealing one conspiracy in each mission...

Imperator
21st Oct 2011, 19:44
Lol thank you both. I was starting to feel alone.

There's nothing wrong with the writing. It would be impossible to make a conspiracy story of this complexity, with this much player choice and yet somehow have it all spoonfed drip by drip in a linear narrative. But the OP seems more concerned with hyper-realism. Perhaps hyper-realism should point him to the inescapable conclusion that he's not really Adam Jensen, that this game isn't real and that games are not flawed just because they fail to be what they were never advertised to be.

Imperator
21st Oct 2011, 19:46
Guys when I read your comments I can't help but notice that you're confusing what Adam should know/suspect and what a player should know/suspect. It's two entirely different

No, this is PRECISELY what YOU are doing.

imported_BoB_
21st Oct 2011, 19:49
Actually, if you don't see how Adam would know this or that, you aren't supposed to choose the answers related to these facts I suppose. So it still makes sense.
If you want to be dumb Adam because you didn't understand or you think Adam wouldn't have understood (which is the same thing actually), just pick these answers and you'll see what happens.

Itkovian
21st Oct 2011, 19:53
Guys when I read your comments I can't help but notice that you're confusing what Adam should know/suspect and what a player should know/suspect. It's two entirely different things.

Personally I just don't think there is enough clues AND TIME for Adam to put those 2 and 2 together to offer this "I want the same thing as you do" crap to the leader of a terrorist group which is pointing a gun to the head of a hostage.
And there is certainly not enough clues for the player who is new to the universe to put 2 and 2 together to not be surprised by that revelation. Come on! The clues and the revelation happens in just one mission!

Anyway, I see the clues, I get it now. I just hope the rest of the game will be a bit slower than revealing one conspiracy in each mission...

Of course there is enough evidence. It was enough for me and many others.

It certainly is enough evidence for Adam, whose JOB it is to figure these things out.

Never mind that trying to get the hostage taker's trust is a classic hostage negotiator's tactic. Adam deduced there was foul play (as did many of us), and used that as leverage to get Zeke to back down and spare the hostage.

Itkovian

Imperator
21st Oct 2011, 20:10
Never mind that trying to get the hostage taker's trust is a classic hostage negotiator's tactic. Adam deduced there was foul play (as did many of us), and used that as leverage to get Zeke to back down and spare the hostage.

Precisely, even if the evidence is lacking, it still makes sense. He could come up with complete lies and it still wouldn't matter. It would still make sense for him to say stuff like that, to exaggerate or even falsify the extent of his knowledge and understanding of the situation.

Also, as I said earlier, the debrief with Sarif not long afterwards alludes to Adam's working on a hunch to an extent. Choose the gamble dialogue option, which is consistent with the player's lack of understanding. Choosing dialogue options to fit the player's understanding is also something that was said earlier. It is the OP who is confusing what the character should know and what the player knows.

I'm growing tired of trying to help this person. Their mind is closed.

I'm gonna call it...either this game is way over his head, or he's a troll.

elpin
21st Oct 2011, 20:32
Please, Imperator, DON'T help me. Thank you.

elpin
21st Oct 2011, 20:52
Of course there is enough evidence. It was enough for me and many others.

It is enough evidence for you only if you already suspect a conspiracy, just as many other players. After all it's Deus Ex, right? I already suspect that the Zeke guy is a good guy, Adam's ex-girlfriend made some unethical research concerning Adam, Adam is some "special" guy which he doesn't know about yet and the head guy of Sarif (don't remember his name) is going in some huge illegal activity and that big conspiracy. But that is not the point.


Adam deduced there was foul play (as did many of us), and used that as leverage to get Zeke to back down and spare the hostage.

Yes, I would believe that if Adam wouldn't say the sentence that he doesn't know what's going yet but he's sure it's something big. Thing is that Adam is not only deducing, he is jumping to conclusions.

Maybe BOB is right. If I knew what Adam's boss say to him after that mission it would make sense to me. So in a way I guess I wonder about Adam's decision just as his boss does :)

Imperator
21st Oct 2011, 20:59
Please, Imperator, DON'T help me. Thank you.

Deal. But before I leave you to it, don't be so sanctimonious. You had a lot of nerve calling me rude and offensive a while back, given how you responded to my initial attempt at helping you. I give people the benefit of the doubt and a default level of courtesy until they treat me differently. When you condescend someone, telling them they're flat out wrong and not worth your time, after having only played the first mission...it shouldn't be hard to understand why they might respond in a similar fashion. You don't like how you've been treated? Tough, you got what you deserved. Consider trying not to blame others for your own shortcomings. Good day.

Imperator
21st Oct 2011, 21:06
Maybe BOB is right. If I knew what Adam's boss say to him after that mission it would make sense to me. So in a way I guess I wonder about Adam's decision just as his boss does :)

Or maybe I was right when I told you that repeatedly throughout. Thank god ladies and gentleman. He's finally got it.

elpin
21st Oct 2011, 21:10
Yes, you took my comments and said that I shouldn't blame others for my lack of imagination. First, I don't blame anyone. Second, you have no idea if I have a vivid imagination or not and third imagination has nothing to do with it.

Sorry, I just find that rude and offensive, that's why I wrote what I wrote.

Imperator
21st Oct 2011, 21:17
I said that in direct response to your arrogant put down. Get your chronology right. You got what you deserved. I find it amusing how you can employ retrospective chronology when it's suddenly convenient, after your inability to understand it throughout this thread. That's irony for you. Troll is becoming more and more obvious.

drunkrussian9
21st Oct 2011, 21:18
Uhh... how exactly does a hacker infiltrating the typhoon during a purity first attack means he convinced them to go in? How do we know the hacker didn't infiltrate the base without the knowledge of Purity First? After all, Zeke denies knowing about him, yet this guy convinced Zeke to attack the manufacturing plant? I would understand if there indeed was someone else pulling the strings as the story says, but that someone else ISNT the hacker, it's one of TYM's associates that did . . . but who?

elpin
21st Oct 2011, 21:28
I said that in direct response to your arrogant put down. Get your chronology right. You got what you deserved. I find it amusing how you can employ retrospective chronology when it's suddenly convenient, after your inability to understand it throughout this thread. That's irony for you. Troll is becoming more and more obvious.

Just made a mistake, sorry. Don't remember exactly what and when was written.

I admit my initial response to you was rude, I'm sorry for that. It's just usually in every thread there is guy that comes and talks about something entirely different or doesn't get the original question at all and it's always tiresome to explain why I don't find their post relevant. That was kind of your case. I'm sorry if you find that offending.

Platinumoxicity
21st Oct 2011, 21:29
Guys when I read your comments I can't help but notice that you're confusing what Adam should know/suspect and what a player should know/suspect. It's two entirely different things.

Adam sometimes knows too much, and sometimes too little, and that can kill your immersion. I didn't really understand why anyone would actually choose to go to the clinic to have the biochip replaced, after all the conspiracies I had heard, and thought that it should have been a linear part of the story that Adam didn't get his chip replaced because of his suspicions. But it seems that the clues I picked up on during the game fell on deaf ears on Adam. Even though I was playing Adam.

Imperator
21st Oct 2011, 21:43
Just made a mistake, sorry. Don't remember exactly what and when was written.

I admit my initial response to you was rude, I'm sorry for that. It's just usually in every thread there is guy that comes and talks about something entirely different or doesn't get the original question at all and it's always tiresome to explain why I don't find their post relevant. That was kind of your case. I'm sorry if you find that offending.

*sigh* and thank you for that. All is well now. War's over lol. :thumb: I forgive you. My frustration probably led me to be disproportionately rude in my responses as matters progressed so I apologise too.

Also, the reason my first comment was a little vague and hypothetical (seeming like I may have made it up, or that it wasn't relevant) was because I was also trying to avoid spoilers for you about the Sarif debriefing. I was trying to get you to be comfortable with the idea of Adam not necessarily knowing what he's talking about without giving the game away. Ultimately, I suppose I was always going to fail. But then I was trying not to just say "play the game first", because without knowing what you know now, you'd have seen it as rude and you'd given me no cause to want to offend you at that point. I hope you understand now, that in this game there's a sort of disconnect between the player and the character. Not only is it a mix of 1st person and 3rd person perspective, graphically, but also in terms of how you experience the story. You are the character experiencing the events, but you're also watching him. If there's ever something you don't understand on your first playthrough, don't worry...it's too much for anyone to take in all of it the first time around. No one gets it all the first time. So on your first playthrough, if you don't understand it...just press on. The more you go on, the better you understand previous events. It can be very disconcerting, I know. But it can also be very rewarding, if you'll let it :). I hope you come to admire the game as much as the rest of us. I'd be interested to know what you think after you've finished your first playthrough. And I hope you understand now, you really do need to finish it before being critical of the writers and forum members' explanations. That being said, all is well now. I really think you'll enjoy the game. Good luck.

Imperator
21st Oct 2011, 22:12
Uhh... how exactly does a hacker infiltrating the typhoon during a purity first attack means he convinced them to go in? How do we know the hacker didn't infiltrate the base without the knowledge of Purity First? After all, Zeke denies knowing about him, yet this guy convinced Zeke to attack the manufacturing plant? I would understand if there indeed was someone else pulling the strings as the story says, but that someone else ISNT the hacker, it's one of TYM's associates that did . . . but who?

I can't remember actually. It's probably hinted at in an email or pocket secretary or something. But to speculate before I do my next playthrough with that in mind, I would say Bill Taggart is a likely suspect. The thing linking Tai Yong Medical and the Humanity Front together is the illuminati. Targgart is their link with Humanity Front, and Zeke Sanders is the brother of Taggart's Assistant, Sandoval. Sandoval also has his own ties to the illuminati though, so it could have been him actign independently of Taggart. Good question though; I'll look out for the answer to that one next time. Unless someone else has the answer for us?

Imperator
21st Oct 2011, 22:27
Adam sometimes knows too much, and sometimes too little, and that can kill your immersion. I didn't really understand why anyone would actually choose to go to the clinic to have the biochip replaced, after all the conspiracies I had heard, and thought that it should have been a linear part of the story that Adam didn't get his chip replaced because of his suspicions. But it seems that the clues I picked up on during the game fell on deaf ears on Adam. Even though I was playing Adam.

You don't have to go to it though. You can just ignore it and get on with your mission. You went despite your own suspicions?

Be mindful of the spoilers Platinumoxicity, he's only just got past the first mission lol

imported_BoB_
21st Oct 2011, 23:05
Uhh... how exactly does a hacker infiltrating the typhoon during a purity first attack means he convinced them to go in? How do we know the hacker didn't infiltrate the base without the knowledge of Purity First? After all, Zeke denies knowing about him, yet this guy convinced Zeke to attack the manufacturing plant? I would understand if there indeed was someone else pulling the strings as the story says, but that someone else ISNT the hacker, it's one of TYM's associates that did . . . but who?

Here my take on it:

We know that the hacker guy is controlled by Van Bruggen. It's how TYM got accross the Typhoon that Federova had, we learn at TYM (through emails) that Van Bruggen didn't have enough time to steal all the plans so Federova's Typhoon isn't as good as Adam.
We also learn that Yune's mission (the name of the hacker) was to infiltrate Zeke's crew, so it's just that his augmentation was hidden. I think that you can hear some guards talking about him infiltrating Purity First and posing as an anti-aug dude during the Fema mission (or in Heng Sha, I don't remember exactly)
And it's because of Belltower's/Tyrant's involvement that they use Manderley to keep the autopsy quiet, so that nobody learns that this was an augmented guy/not a collateral damage and that he kills himself, if not, Eliza couldn't put the blame on Sarif hiding things, and maybe the supersoldier footage wouldn't have been that credible.
And once they know it didn't work 100% (because Adam broked in), they plan to kill Van Bruggen (beginning of the Fema mission) to cover their track.

Imperator
21st Oct 2011, 23:26
Here my take on it:

We know that the hacker guy is controlled by Van Bruggen. It's how TYM got accross the Typhoon that Federova had, we learn at TYM (through emails) that Van Bruggen didn't have enough time to steal all the plans so Federova's Typhoon isn't as good as Adam.
We also learn that Yune's mission (the name of the hacker) was to infiltrate Zeke's crew, so it's just that his augmentation was hidden. I think that you can hear some guards talking about him infiltrating Purity First and posing as an anti-aug dude during the Fema mission (or in Heng Sha, I don't remember exactly)
And it's because of Belltower's/Tyrant's involvement that they use Manderley to keep the autopsy quiet, so that nobody learns that this was an augmented guy/not a collateral damage and that he kills himself, if not, Eliza couldn't put the blame on Sarif hiding things, and maybe the supersoldier footage wouldn't have been that credible.
And once they know it didn't work 100% (because Adam broked in), they plan to kill Van Bruggen (beginning of the Fema mission) to cover their track.

Cool. But who persuaded Zeke Sanders, if anyone, that it was a good idea to take control over the labs in the first place in order to provide this opportunity?

elpin
21st Oct 2011, 23:27
Thanks Imperator, I understand.
I will keep on playing the game and then share my feelings from it. My only hope is that it's just as good as the first Deus Ex... let's see.

Bye and thanks to all.

Imperator
21st Oct 2011, 23:37
Thanks Imperator, I understand.
I will keep on playing the game and then share my feelings from it. My only hope is that it's just as good as the first Deus Ex... let's see.

Bye and thanks to all.

:) Hope to see you soon.

P.S. 2nd playthrough's the best one.

imported_BoB_
22nd Oct 2011, 00:08
Cool. But who persuaded Zeke Sanders, if anyone, that it was a good idea to take control over the labs in the first place in order to provide this opportunity?


Well we know that Sandoval is Tyrant's bit-ch, and that he didn't fulfill his mission completely with the GPL's signal. Yune works for them too, and has 6 months to infiltrate Purity First. We know that Sandoval supports Purity First, and that Sanders is his brother.
Sandoval is kind of trapped after helping the Tyrants once, so if they came to him asking a last favor, he didn't really have a choice. And he sent his brother knowing he won't do any casualties but he didn't know that it was a red herring attack (Sandoval and Sanders can't be against finding proofs over Sarif's supposed illegal activities), and that Yune was already in place for helping the Tyrants to steal the Typhoon schematics.

drunkrussian9
22nd Oct 2011, 00:13
Great insight. Although the question remains, who set up the attack?

So the typhoon was stolen by TYM. That much makes sense. But on another note, how did they know it was there in the first place? It was supposed to be a secret military project, no? Did it have to do with the open broadcast signal Sarif set up?

Imperator
22nd Oct 2011, 00:19
Well we know that Sandoval is Tyrant's bit-ch, and that he didn't fulfill his mission completely with the GPL's signal. Yune works for them too, and has 6 months to infiltrate Purity First. We know that Sandoval supports Purity First, and that Sanders is his brother.
Sandoval is kind of trapped after helping the Tyrants once, so if they came to him asking a last favor, he didn't really have a choice. And he sent his brother knowing he won't do any casualties but he didn't know that it was a red herring attack (Sandoval and Sanders can't be against finding proofs over Sarif's supposed illegal activities), and that Yune was already in place for helping the Tyrants to steal the Typhoon schematics.


Yeah, I thought it had something to do with Sandoval. But as I said, it's also possible Taggart was involved, or at least had knowledge of it.

Imperator
22nd Oct 2011, 00:23
Great insight. Although the question remains, who set up the attack?

So the typhoon was stolen by TYM. That much makes sense. But on another note, how did they know it was there in the first place? It was supposed to be a secret military project, no? Did it have to do with the open broadcast signal Sarif set up?

Sandoval set up the attack. But you raise another good question vis a vis knowledge of the typhoon. Van Bruggen does say TYM got to where it was because it hacked its competitors and stole technology. There's also some hinting of the possibility they set up the Director of that Scottish biotech corporation so they could buy it up. TYM is a dirty tricks brigade.

imported_BoB_
22nd Oct 2011, 00:47
They knew the Typhoon was moved because they spy on Sarif through the backdoor Sarif set up for the PI.

Actually, throughout the game, I thought that Sarif's secretary had gone to the dark side because she was the one receiving DeBeers multiple attempts to get through to Sarif, but it didn't seem to be the case, or it hadn't been revealed yet. It would have been way more easier for the Illuminatis but it's still coherent though.

Imperator
22nd Oct 2011, 00:55
They knew the Typhoon was moved because they spy on Sarif through the backdoor Sarif set up for the PI.

Actually, throughout the game, I thought that Sarif's secretary had gone to the dark side because she was the one receiving DeBeers multiple attempts to get through to Sarif, but it didn't seem to be the case, or it hadn't been revealed yet.

Lol never considered that. It seems unlikely as you say, but you never know. Maybe in another DLC. :)

elpin
23rd Oct 2011, 16:42
Hey guys, just want to tell you that the game is AWESOME! ...Well, it's not like you don't know already, haha.

I'm at the police station right now and spent the last half an hour building wall of boxes in front of the policeman so he doesn't see me hack into a computer :-D

By the way, the ending of the first mission I decided to handle like I would if I were on Adam's place. Being manipulated or not, he is a terrorist with a gun. So I've shot the sucker! But as I'm a super cop I managed to do that before he had a chance to shoot the hostage... and I've did that with a tranquilizer. Come on, we are civilized!

Oh, one more thing, can you guys tell me where I can recharge my energy level? Is it only from food? Because I found very little food so far. And it's not like I'm not exploring. I've crawled through the whole police station but nothing... Is it maybe the difficulty level? I'm playing on hardest.

Thanks!

Imperator
23rd Oct 2011, 17:00
Hey guys, just want to tell you that the game is AWESOME! ...Well, it's not like you don't know already, haha.

I'm at the police station right now and spent the last half an hour building wall of boxes in front of the policeman so he doesn't see me hack into a computer :-D

By the way, the ending of the first mission I decided to handle like I would if I were on Adam's place. Being manipulated or not, he is a terrorist with a gun. So I've shot the sucker! But as I'm a super cop I managed to do that before he had a chance to shoot the hostage... and I've did that with a tranquilizer. Come on, we are civilized!

Oh, one more thing, can you guys tell me where I can recharge my energy level? Is it only from food? Because I found very little food so far. And it's not like I'm not exploring. I've crawled through the whole police station but nothing... Is it maybe the difficulty level? I'm playing on hardest.

Thanks!

Haha I'm glad you're enjoying the game.

It's only from food and is nothing to do with the difficulty level. Only the first bar recharges on its own. You can use augments to increase the speed at which that first bar or other partially depleted ones recharge. But otherwise, it's the food that does it. You can buy a couple of big tubs of energy food at the limb clinic that can recharge 3 bars at once. It's a mechanic they put in place so as to limit the usage of things like the cloaking aug and not make the game too easy.

imported_BoB_
23rd Oct 2011, 17:09
There is quite a few candy bars in the Detroit's street trash cans.

elpin
23rd Oct 2011, 18:28
Okay, I see.

Trash cans?? You crazy bro? I ain't gonna eat that!

Damn, I start to sound like those Derelict Row guys... Anyway, thanks for the tip!

elpin
23rd Oct 2011, 18:31
PS: I love those conversations! Like those two guys talking about antenna. "How come I can watch only that stupid soap opera all the time?" "That's since you let that guy hack our antenna. Why did you let him there?" "Well, he said he'll give us some porn!" :-D