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John Carter
19th Oct 2011, 10:08
An interesting article about the perils of creating CGI characters that are increasingly human-like. Don't believe this iteration of Lara is going to push the described limit, but it bears thinking about.

http://news.yahoo.com/why-cgi-humans-creepy-scientists-doing-202408830.html

a_big_house
19th Oct 2011, 17:37
I read the first two paragraphs, and thought it was just an excuse for the scientists failing at creating AI, saying game devs (who are closer to it than themselves) are causing harm... Science causes more harm than CGI people... How many cartoons have blown up and burned people... None as far as I'm aware... Science on the other hand, lots...

Driber
19th Oct 2011, 20:12
Maybe instead of reading only the intro and posting your quick conclusions, you should read the whole article then, a big house. I did, and that's not at all what it is about.

It was actually an interesting read. And it makes sense when you think about it (about the evolutionary purpose theory).

And it's indeed creepy to think how lifelike CGI and androids are getting...

4T4DRuw7uMs

I don't think Lara will ever reach the uncanny valley, though. At least not any time in the foreseeable future.

But I think I know one certain Lady here who would love that amount of realism in Lara, though ;) :D

Thanks for sharing, John.

d1n0_xD
20th Oct 2011, 06:48
I've read about this too, and mention it on the forum before... Just watch this whole video.

bLiX5d3rC6o&feature=related

When I watched it for the first time, I was stunned.

Watching her, something was off, but I didn't suspect a thing, and there it was, the end of the video, realising she's not acutally real :eek:

And like Driber said, I don't see it coming anytime soon.

Driber
20th Oct 2011, 14:26
Here's something which is definitely in the uncanny valley: http://www.motionportrait.com/about/TIminoriHair.swf

d1n0_xD
20th Oct 2011, 17:04
^ That's just... wrong. Her smile is terrifying! XD Stop moving your mouse and she'll look into your eyes, down to your very soul and see everything! :eek: XD Seriously now, like you said,this is definitely in the uncanny valley, very disturbing!

QiX
20th Oct 2011, 18:09
Lara and Roth were amazingly realistic in Turning Point, but when the gameplay video was released I felt like the Uncanny was dragging them back to the valley. There's something wrong with their eyes specially. I can't say exactly why, but they don't feel natural yet.


Here's something which is definitely in the uncanny valley: http://www.motionportrait.com/about/TIminoriHair.swf

Man, she's weird. She could use a better hair, this one doesn't look good when she moves. And smile less. And what's with the bloodshot eyes? She gives me nightmares.


I've read about this too, and mention it on the forum before... Just watch this whole video.

[_YOUTUBE]bLiX5d3rC6o&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

When I watched it for the first time, I was stunned.

Watching her, something was off, but I didn't suspect a thing, and there it was, the end of the video, realising she's not acutally real :eek:

And like Driber said, I don't see it coming anytime soon.

I just called my sister to watch the video, see how she reacted. While the actress talked about their technology my sister asked "But will she show what she's talking about in the end?" "Well, she is showing already"

Flawless...

Driber
20th Oct 2011, 19:46
^ To experience nightmares, shouldn't you first like.........GO TO SLEEP?!

:p

QiX
20th Oct 2011, 21:03
^ To experience nightmares, shouldn't you first like.........GO TO SLEEP?!

:p

Man, I'm taking no chances.

*sips another coffee mug*

Not while I can avoid it. This' gonna be a long night.

http://dailyshotofcoffee.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Coffee-Addict-400x268.jpg

TrickyVein
20th Oct 2011, 22:19
Excellent read. A couple of things:

@ a big house:

To paraphrase Carl Sagan, science is a self-correcting discipline. You often prove falsehoods in science which make some people's theories wrong. If tomorrow our observation changes, then so must our understanding. Scientists are people too, and so it's difficult sometimes to admit that one particular theory is wrong, but it happens. That despite pride and personal investment in one's career, you have to follow where the evidence leads you. How many times can you say this happens in politics or religion? You should probably think more carefully before you make statements like that.

With regards to the article, of course I'm reminded of Tyrell's Nexus 6 and the catchphrase "more human than human (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicants)," but I think that the "uncanny valley" affects more than just anthropogenic characters. The environment within any one of these virtual, digital, fantasy worlds must also be internally consistent. With games, for instance as hardware provides the muscle to be able to render more realism like real-time shadows, normal mapping, physics effects, particle systems, bloom effects and HDR, ambient occlusion and highly detailed 3D models and high resolution textures, we have a heightened sense of what's missing and lacking rather than what's there. With all of these tools now available to game developers to be able to create something very detailed, special attention must be paid towards things like scale and naturalism. Otherwise, poor level design can actually break the 4th wall and remind the player that he/she's actually walking around in a game world that was sloppily thrown together in some editing program rather than being a real life, breathing environment. This is why it's better sometimes, as touched upon in the article to achieve a kind of pseudo-realism with cartoons where we have to already suspend our disbelief that we can accept what's there for what it is and not have to compare it to what we know.

TranceTrouble
21st Oct 2011, 18:14
amazing post, that YT post from d1n0 definitely shows how they have advanced and are moving out of the valley. One of the points mentioned in the first link is that it could have something to be with the eyes to, i see that good in the example from Driber his SWF. Those eyes just don't seem right maybe something to do with our mind which determines that red-blooded eyes like that cant be healthy and so interpret a "I don't like message". Very interesting you got me all thinking and I'm going to look up more on interpretation from the human brain.

I think our brain also can determine whether it is a robot or not. The robot showed in the YT video posted by Driber has great facial reactions but somewhat it seems a bit out of proportion, which would move it definitely to the Uncanny Valley area.

I guess if the technique of controlling hydraulics, voltage/current movement etc. can advance to higher levels such that they would become more smooth. Which probably will result in less of a gab of the Uncanny valley. I guess robots are limited to the calculation speed of the processors used and the signal transferring rates, our muscles react within a few micro or even nano seconds where as CPU's probably will need this time only to calculate and then send it to the devices which should react. Fibre optics are still not as fast since the whole electronic industry is based on metal technology, much more improvements to be made for the electronic, mechatronic, and CGI industries.

just my two cents :P

Driber
21st Oct 2011, 19:56
Good post, TrickyVein :thumb:

@TranceTrouble, apart from the unnatural smile, the eyes are usually the give-away, yeah.

Somehow, the human brain is really good at noticing these tiny little deviations in the eyes of an animated being. As my GF said, her eyes don't have any "soul" in them. For me, it wasn't the red eyes, though. It's not strange that someone would have red eyes if they have been crying / through cold weather / etc. But for me, the first time she winked, I noticed that something was off.

The SWF looks like it's a photo of an actual person and that only the image is slightly manipulated in real-time to mimic muscle movement and that only her mouth and eyelids are actually animated.

They they that the eyes are the window to your soul. There may indeed be more to this proverb than one would initially assume. Perhaps the brain really needs to see the person's eyes in real life and perhaps it's just impossible to mimic realistic eyes with something artificial.

A very interesting documentary series for anyone who takes a liking to this subject - The Human Face with John Cleese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Human_Face). It goes into detail about what happens in the brain when you see faces of other people. I saw this some years ago and found it quite interesting. Plus, comedy bits by the master of facial expressions himself - how can you go wrong! :D

If I remember correctly, it also talks about that the brain is able to detect these tiny little imperfections due to an evolutionary process.

I'd recommend finding the DVD online somewhere. It's interesting stuff. I believe some of the bigger online shops have it available ;)

TrickyVein
21st Oct 2011, 22:44
Thanks, Driber I'm checking that out now.

This talk of how it's the eyes more than anything else that look "odd" to people remind me of this episode from Radiolab (http://www.radiolab.org/2009/jul/27/). It's about death and dying and how people lose a certain "shine" to their eyes when they go. They become "soul-less" for lack of a better word and that's exactly like some of this CGI...dead.

Except for Emily. She's the most convincing virtual being I've ever seen. She's also pretty saucy.

Driber
22nd Oct 2011, 07:11
It's about death and dying and how people lose a certain "shine" to their eyes when they go.

Hmm, though I don't dispute that possibility (I'm an agnostic), I would guess that could be largely based on a placebo effect. "Your brain knows the person is dead, therefore your eyes 'see it'".

WinterSoldierLTE
22nd Oct 2011, 17:30
I saw a documentary years ago about scientists testing out the stretch factor of synthetic skin by putting it on an android/robot and making it walk around a room and do basic tasks. It was pretty cool. Only creepy thing about it was they had a Boba Fett helmet on it. But that was still cool.

IvanaKC
22nd Oct 2011, 21:43
I read all those posts about robots looking exactly like humans and I can't help it, but I instantly think of The Matrix!
Artificial intellingence could get too intelligent and I think scientist are pushing those limits way too far. Yeah, it would be cool to have a robot at home, but as your servant not a friend that has mind of its own. I'm afraid that is just what's going to happen in the (near) future.

d1n0_xD
22nd Oct 2011, 22:11
^ Imagine the stuff that happened in I, Robot :eek:

Yaphy
22nd Oct 2011, 22:35
^ Imagine the stuff that happened in I, Robot :eek:
What stuff? As I remember it everything went perfectly fine after Isaac Asimov altered the robots and added the zeroth law. Later when Nikola Kesarovski added the fifth law of Robotics it was no more holes in the logic that I can think of.

d1n0_xD
22nd Oct 2011, 22:43
I was talking about the movie where Sony and the robots had their own minds, reffering to what Ivana was talking about. ;)

Yaphy
22nd Oct 2011, 23:05
Oh, I haven't seen that movie.

Driber
23rd Oct 2011, 19:36
I read all those posts about robots looking exactly like humans and I can't help it, but I instantly think of The Matrix!
Artificial intellingence could get too intelligent and I think scientist are pushing those limits way too far. Yeah, it would be cool to have a robot at home, but as your servant not a friend that has mind of its own. I'm afraid that is just what's going to happen in the (near) future.

I recommend watching Deamon Seed (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075931/).

Not as fancy as The Matrix, but also pretty creepy. And it's a classic - done waaaaay before The Matrix :)

IvanaKC
23rd Oct 2011, 20:18
I recommend watching Deamon Seed (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075931/).

Not as fancy as The Matrix, but also pretty creepy. And it's a classic - done waaaaay before The Matrix :)

You know, now that I read the plot of that movie, it totally reminded me of Terminator 3. It's somehow the same story. Skynet got a mind of its own and started torrorising people. And it's also a super-computer.

Denis..
23rd Oct 2011, 23:43
you got to be kidding me..
she looks real! completely..!

indeed servants though,
but if u ask me.. have u watched the movie with a robot kid? which he been purchased by a couple and then he begin to jealous of real ppl hm?
its the actor who played in the movies alone in the house at christmas or something but u know now the actor im sure.
well that robot movie game me chills! is this where we going?

d1n0_xD
24th Oct 2011, 07:15
^ Is the Artificial Intelligence (A.I.) the movie you're talking about?

IvanaKC
24th Oct 2011, 16:26
you got to be kidding me..
she looks real! completely..!

indeed servants though,
but if u ask me.. have u watched the movie with a robot kid? which he been purchased by a couple and then he begin to jealous of real ppl hm?
its the actor who played in the movies alone in the house at christmas or something but u know now the actor im sure.
well that robot movie game me chills! is this where we going?



Yup, that has to be Artificial Intelligence with Jude Law.
That little robot kid you're talking about wanted to become real because his human parents didn't want him anymore. They realised he was not growing up and he was just temporary replacement for their dead son.
Really sad movie.

John Carter
26th Oct 2011, 02:21
I recommend watching Deamon Seed (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075931/).

Not as fancy as The Matrix, but also pretty creepy. And it's a classic - done waaaaay before The Matrix :)

That is indeed a classic and creepy movie, particularly the ending scene.

Interesting discussions all here, IKC's concern about true AI brought this recent article to mind - IBM chip mimics human brain (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-20093845-52/ibm-says-new-chip-mimics-the-human-brain/)

There is a great deal of speculation on the AI issue in the scientific community. Some don't see it coming for a very long time and believe that the current chip architechture is incapable of producing true AI, the IBM advance notwithstanding. Even if one were able to reproduce biological neurological structures combined with the speed and processing power of silicon-based computing, science as yet hasn't a clue how consciousness is generated in humans, the non-metaphysical assumption being that it is some unkown by-product of human brain function.

Others, notably Ray Kurzwiel (http://www.kurzweilai.net/kurzweil-responds-dont-underestimate-the-singularity), think that AI will occur as a result of technical advances speeding up on an exponetial curve, in such a way that there will be little to no warning of the creation of true AI. One night the world goes to sleep with a smaller faster better iPhone, the next morning it wakes up with HAL 9000 (althoug Kurzweil believes that AI will be morally superior to humans as well as smarter, and hence will not go all SkyNet on us).

I've always felt the proponents of exponential emergent technical advance ignored the human societal tendency to stick with the old as long as possible, except in cases of perceived existential threat, so I am not really worried about greeting our new cybernetic masters any time soon. But then again, I've often been wrong....

Any way, fun thread, don't ever recall sparking such good discussion with anything I posted as a moderator, hehe.

TrickyVein
28th Oct 2011, 16:12
From the article:

"At the moment, Modha's team has come up with two prototype chip designs. Each contains 256 neurons, while one has 262,144 programmable synapses, and the other has 65,536 learning synapses, IBM said (italics mine). "

LOL. I'ts still 16-bit computing.

Good read, though I'm awfully curious about the specifics of this newfangled chip-thing. It's been said that there are two (probably more, but let's say two) approaches to constructing an AI or replicating brain function: one is two build a very ordered and precise set of neurons which work in tandem without error to do work; the other is to compile a large enough number of "connections" that a majority of them end up effecting some process without having to be completely accurate individually. The latter more closely reflects actual thought processes where individual neurons may fail and send the wrong message to other areas of the brain but there's enough input and enough neurons which function correctly to get the right message across. This option also hypothetically allows for creativity which is a hallmark of intelligence; the idea that random error can introduce signals that aren't directly related to environmental input, allowing for a true "spark of genius" or creative insight.

AI aside, it seems the new processing power of the chip alone should be revolutionary enough. It reminds me of an Asimov story - the Bicentennial Man I think - where in the future computers managed the world economy and disaster relief and other things, pretty much the entire global infrastructure because superior processing power had made human roles in these things frivolous and even dangerously error-prone in comparison.

2kool4u
11th Nov 2011, 22:18
This is awesome! I'm writing a paper regarding a topic like this. We are using the films Blade Runner, Frankenstein and the documentary Guys and Dolls as a way to prove the argument.

D00MRAIDER
11th Nov 2012, 02:56
Great post! very interesting.

I find it Kinda scary yet also very exciting just thinking about how advanced CGI and especially Robotics tech will be in say...30 years. T800 anyone?:eek:

*Continues building pipebombs*:whistle:

affinity
11th Nov 2012, 03:13
this Tomb Raider and its character models are no where near the "uncanny valley." Even Siren 2 makes the best graphics and character models in videogames this gen look like cartoons due to its motion captured cutscenes and face scans that express more realistic facial appearance expressions, but they still look natural as far as videogames go. :) more realism is actually a good thing when applied properly. :) Tomb Raider is artistically more realistic than say, a PIXAR movie, but it's not Final Fantasy Spirits Within "realism" either. there's nothing to be concerned about uncanny valley with TR's current graphics and art style. It's more realistic than previous in the series, but it doesn't cross the line at all. :) overall, the uncanny valley debates are just SCARE TACTICS to convince devs to not make much progress with more realistic graphics and characters. The industry owes a lot to developed graphics becoming more realistic because it helps enhance the immersion, impact and nature.

Driber
11th Nov 2012, 10:13
Thread resurrected exactly 1 year since the last post?

Uncanny.

d1n0_xD
11th Nov 2012, 11:07
Wow, can't believe it has been so much XD

JapaneseIsland
11th Nov 2012, 16:43
I've read about this too, and mention it on the forum before... Just watch this whole video.

bLiX5d3rC6o&feature=related

When I watched it for the first time, I was stunned.

Watching her, something was off, but I didn't suspect a thing, and there it was, the end of the video, realising she's not acutally real :eek:

And like Driber said, I don't see it coming anytime soon.

Oh my god.
I knew there was something off about her.
Wow, She wasn't real?..
What..
Wow.
I hope they can do something like that for Lara. xD
But, I don't fully understand the concept behind uncanny valley.

Driber
11th Nov 2012, 17:14
But, I don't fully understand the concept behind uncanny valley.

What don't you understand? :)

JapaneseIsland
11th Nov 2012, 17:16
What don't you understand? :)

Is it basically saying how the uncanny valley is a definition used when CGI or animation / robotics becomes too human like and is borderline disturbing? O_O

d1n0_xD
11th Nov 2012, 17:23
^ Yep, that's it, there's a line up to which we think it's cool, but once it crosses that line, once it looks so real, but there's something off, just those little things that make humans human, it become disturbing a.k.a. uncanny valley...

Driber
11th Nov 2012, 17:34
What Dino said :)

It is something that seems to be hard-wired in the human brain.

JapaneseIsland
11th Nov 2012, 19:14
I see now. Thank you.

TranceTrouble
11th Nov 2012, 19:31
hehe its actually nice to see this thread resurrected :D

LARALOVERnr1
11th Nov 2012, 19:33
Now that we're back on the subject.... Is there a possibility of passing the uncanny valley, as in; Making CGI animations and robots 100% realistic?

Driber
11th Nov 2012, 20:05
100% realistic CGI, probably still a long way away.

100% realistic robots, probably never.

Luda
11th Nov 2012, 20:27
I don't know why, but I seem to lack the uncanny-valley-instinct thing.
All I could think was 'wow this is so cool, her eyes follow the cursor.' or 'she wasn't real? that's amazing!'
I will be the first to die when skynet takes over. -_-

kadosho
13th Nov 2012, 20:14
I think this is the biggest challenge that any real time image & voice acting is still facing. Making the experience for the viewer enough to believe its actually going on. Assassins Creed (TM) (Ubi's step child) composed enough with the PoP engine that it literally gained its own identity, and eventually emphasizing that the in-game world was breaking down. (or evolving)

I believe this is what the new TR game will try to emphasize, stepping away from uncanny valley because this "world" that involved Lara may actually be based on real terrain. However Lara may be a digital character, if she were to gain traits from the player's play style... then that's another story.

Driber
15th Feb 2014, 08:36
We're getting very close, people! Check out this awesome piece of CGI work and notice the amazingly realistic textures, lighting and skin muscle movement:

TAZIvyAJfeM

This one had me fooled for the full first 15 seconds before the zoom, as I didn't know in advance that it was CGI demonstration.

Rai
15th Feb 2014, 12:40
Oh, that's just creepy. Not at first as I was like, why is a video of a real eye being shown, is it as a comparison? Then the camera pans out to reveal that it is the CGI. Not sure I'd like that in video games. I feel there should still be a certain quality about the characters that keeps them in the 'video game character' category. If that makes sense.

a_big_house
15th Feb 2014, 19:52
Ehh, the eyeball itself looks too plastic to be close to real IMO... But yeah, real fancy and all

Driber
15th Feb 2014, 23:11
Ehh, the eyeball itself looks too plastic to be close to real IMO... But yeah, real fancy and all

Not sure what you mean by "plastic". That was the most photo-realistic CGI eye I've ever seen.

tplarkin7
13th Apr 2014, 04:40
Lara's expression during gameplay is awkward. A rule of etiquette is to keep your mouth closed unless your talking or eating. Lara's mouth is agape at all times. It makes her look unintelligent.

Driber
13th Apr 2014, 08:08
^ Are you talking about TR 2013 or TRDE?

VaBanes
13th Apr 2014, 11:09
She is exhausted. And heavy breathing. Whut? O_o

Jurre
13th Apr 2014, 12:13
... and concerned and sometimes frightened as well. tplarkin7 is right when nothing's going on but there's a lot going on here...

Ellie92
13th Apr 2014, 12:18
Even if nothing is going on, she is still affected by what was going on before.

tplarkin7
13th Apr 2014, 15:24
^ Are you talking about TR 2013 or TRDE?
DE on PS4.


She is exhausted. And heavy breathing. Whut? O_o
She should learn to breathe through her nose. ;)


Even if nothing is going on, she is still affected by what was going on before.
The expressions on her face are not detailed enough to make that believable.


... and concerned and sometimes frightened as well. tplarkin7 is right when nothing's going on but there's a lot going on here...
I'm referring to times when there is no combat and you're just walking around.

Ellie92
13th Apr 2014, 15:28
She should learn to breathe through her nose. ;)

Did you ever run a few km at once? Just after you were fighting against dozens of people?

You get more oxygen when breathing through your mouth.

Driber
13th Apr 2014, 15:54
DE on PS4.

Okay, yeah, we know the animations are a bit more weird in TRDE compared to the standard edition. It's because when designing the new model, the animations weren't re-done from scratch, so they don't line up as good.

It was present in the standard edition as well, but less pronounced.

Jurre
13th Apr 2014, 15:55
@ tplarkin7: in different circumstances I would say you have a point but in the context of the situation on Yamatai Lara should have a somewhat intense look on her face...

Lord Martok
26th May 2014, 06:51
Y'all just wait! The Cylons are comin', man! :)