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luminar
28th Sep 2011, 20:24
I was thinking about the third person elements in DX:HR the other day and this idea just popped into my head. They should make third person cover into an aug you start with witch AJ activates whenever he use's cover or takedown's or whatever basically it's a mini drone that feed's audio/visual data right into your brain. In game this would be explained as giving the user a supreme tactical advantage in combat and stealth situations. It gives a fairly credible in game explanation and may make it slightly more immersive for some. What do you think?

Ashpolt
28th Sep 2011, 20:28
Obviously it's too late for them to implement this in DXHR now (this kind of thing is far too significant to simply patch in) but add it to this thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=122307), which is a list of our wishes for DX4!

LkMax
28th Sep 2011, 20:35
That's a cool idea actually, however only for cover, not for takedowns since it makes no sense to use the drone just to watch how cool you are when fighting.

luminar
28th Sep 2011, 20:44
That's a cool idea actually, however only for cover, not for takedowns since it makes no sense to use the drone just to watch how cool you are when fighting.

Well it could be said that during these time's you would be focused on the 1/2 enemies your fighting and that this allows you to see other enemies in the vicinity! :D

ChibiR
29th Sep 2011, 01:20
Why do people insist on taking away third-person view? Yes, yes, I know the basic argument, which goes along the lines of "Because you can't do that in real life!", but the thing is that in real life, I can do a LOT MORE than in a regular FPS. Human vision adapts to low-light conditions, and we can easily detect others while sneaking around, be it through catching glimpses of shadows or reflections or through locating them with our powerful sense of hearing. Even if you could program a game that fully simulates that (which would be awesome, but is likely very hard), you would have a 5.1 or 7.1 surround system as system requirements.

Third-person view is a compromise. We get something that we can't normally do to compensate for all the missing stuff we normally could do.

Of course, I'm not saying that the current implementation is perfect. A sort of Fog Of War third-person view would be great - show us that somebody is there, but don't show us details. That would do a better job of simulating the sensory input the game can't supply directly. Enhancements from there would be a possibility, I guess.

HERESY
29th Sep 2011, 02:08
3rd person is where it's at! Eidos should have implemented an option for 3rd person only, first person only or the 1st/3rd hybrid.

BTW, does Adam have an aug that allows him to see through the objects he picks up and holds in first person mode? No. So why can he do it?

Ashpolt
29th Sep 2011, 08:56
BTW, does Adam have an aug that allows him to see through the objects he picks up and holds in first person mode? No. So why can he do it?

Because gameplay.

HERESY
29th Sep 2011, 17:20
Because gameplay.

That's a cop out. So third person view is breaking immersion but giving you the ability to see inside of boxes, etc is ok due to gameplay? LOL!

luminar
29th Sep 2011, 23:03
That's a cop out. So third person view is breaking immersion but giving you the ability to see inside of boxes, etc is ok due to gameplay? LOL!

When I carry a single item I typically don't carry it above eye level but for gameplay reason's this is done so you can see where your placing the item thus they made it transparent to simulate being able to see over it.

Ashpolt
29th Sep 2011, 23:49
That's a cop out. So third person view is breaking immersion but giving you the ability to see inside of boxes, etc is ok due to gameplay? LOL!

Immersion is very important, but gameplay trumps immersion, because gameplay trumps everything.

HERESY
30th Sep 2011, 00:15
When I carry a single item I typically don't carry it above eye level but for gameplay reason's this is done so you can see where your placing the item thus they made it transparent to simulate being able to see over it.

Again, this is a cop out. You want to simulate being able to see over something? Press another button (L1 for example) and use that to peek over the top or the sides of the item. Don't give the guy magic vision and chalk it to a gameplay mechanic.


Immersion is very important, but gameplay trumps immersion, because gameplay trumps everything.

Gameplay trumps immersion? So why did we have the long back and forth over 3rd person and first person a while back? Yes, gameplay does trump immersion which is why I, a person who has constantly admitted that he doesn't like FPS, decided to give this game a try. You, on the other hand, have been butchering the game because it isn't a 100% reboot of DX, has 3rd person elements, etc. Times change, technology changes and you have to adapt. If 3rd person view is breaking immersion so is being able to see through a box, thats just common sense at this point. "Wow, I need augs to see through walls but I don't need augs to see through boxes, crates, fridges, etc."

Cop out.

Again, seeing through boxes is a COP OUT. If I'm supposed to be Adam, and your job is to place me in his world/shoes, do so as much as possible. Don't allow me to pick up crates and see directly through them and chalk it as a play mechanic. Don't allow me to move bodies with a phantom limb. Don't allow me to open doors by simply pressing a button.

Ashpolt
30th Sep 2011, 08:30
Gameplay trumps immersion? So why did we have the long back and forth over 3rd person and first person a while back? Yes, gameplay does trump immersion which is why I, a person who has constantly admitted that he doesn't like FPS, decided to give this game a try. You, on the other hand, have been butchering the game because it isn't a 100% reboot of DX,

Nope. If you're going to tell me what I'm saying, at least get it right.


has 3rd person elements, etc. Times change, technology changes and you have to adapt. If 3rd person view is breaking immersion so is being able to see through a box, thats just common sense at this point. "Wow, I need augs to see through walls but I don't need augs to see through boxes, crates, fridges, etc."

You are the one talking about immersion here, I'm talking about gameplay. As such, using immersion as the cornerstone of your counterargument is a straw man.

HERESY
30th Sep 2011, 16:50
Nope. If you're going to tell me what I'm saying, at least get it right.

I got it right, you got it wrong.



You are the one talking about immersion here, I'm talking about gameplay. As such, using immersion as the cornerstone of your counterargument is a straw man.

In this game immersion and game play go hand in hand. The people who've been crying over the third person view have been shouting that since day one, so there is no need to make it appear as if they are two separate things when in reality, you can't have one without the other. No fallacy, better luck next time, chipper!

Again, why are we seeing through objects but it costs praxis points to see through walls? Where is the consistency in that?

Ashpolt
30th Sep 2011, 18:38
In this game immersion and game play go hand in hand. The people who've been crying over the third person view have been shouting that since day one, so there is no need to make it appear as if they are two separate things when in reality, you can't have one without the other. No fallacy, better luck next time, chipper!

This is utter nonsense. Of course gameplay and immersion are separate things: you can have gameplay without immersion and vice versa. But then again...


I got it right, you got it wrong.

...you believe you know what I think better than I do, so I guess a rational discussion is too much to ask for. No point in continuing this.

HERESY
30th Sep 2011, 18:49
This is utter nonsense. Of course gameplay and immersion are separate things: you can have gameplay without immersion and vice versa.

Not in the case where you're trying to convince the player that they are the character and they are a part of that world.


But then again...

But then again what? People like you have been saying you want to be Adam Jensen when you're playing the game, that the first person view, which is a gameplay element, allows you to realize this vision and that anything aside from it ruins immersion. Now you're saying they are two seperate things.


...you believe you know what I think better than I do, so I guess a rational discussion is too much to ask for. No point in continuing this.

I'm having a discussion with an individual who is so warped with his vision of what a game should be (a clone of the original), that he can't stand to see it stand on its own merit. I'm having a discussion with an individual who, butted in and said "because of gameplay" yet has failed to address the fact that you can see through boxes and heavy objects while seeing inside of walls requires praxis points.

Yep, rational discussion with you has gone flying out the window, kid.

luminar
30th Sep 2011, 20:49
Not in the case where you're trying to convince the player that they are the character and they are a part of that world.



But then again what? People like you have been saying you want to be Adam Jensen when you're playing the game, that the first person view, which is a gameplay element, allows you to realize this vision and that anything aside from it ruins immersion. Now you're saying they are two seperate things.



I'm having a discussion with an individual who is so warped with his vision of what a game should be (a clone of the original), that he can't stand to see it stand on its own merit. I'm having a discussion with an individual who, butted in and said "because of gameplay" yet has failed to address the fact that you can see through boxes and heavy objects while seeing inside of walls requires praxis points.

Yep, rational discussion with you has gone flying out the window, kid.

You cant see through wall's without an aug because of gameplay balance and the fact that IRL you cant see through walls IRL. With the crate's and such again I say this is to simulate the ability to see over a box or other object while still providing the ability to precisely place the object. Your suggestion to add a button to move the object lower wouldn't work because when carrying an object such as a crate you don't need to move it to see over it.

HERESY
30th Sep 2011, 21:07
You cant see through wall's without an aug because of gameplay balance and the fact that IRL you cant see through walls IRL. With the crate's and such again I say this is to simulate the ability to see over a box or other object while still providing the ability to precisely place the object. Your suggestion to add a button to move the object lower wouldn't work because when carrying an object such as a crate you don't need to move it to see over it.

1. Cop out. In real life can you see through a soda machine or a box? In real life can you get augs that allow you to see through walls?

2. Try reading my post before you respond. I didn't suggest adding a button to move the object lower. Here is exactly what I said:


You want to simulate being able to see over something? Press another button (L1 for example) and use that to peek over the top or the sides of the item. Don't give the guy magic vision and chalk it to a gameplay mechanic.

More reading. Less typing.

luminar
30th Sep 2011, 22:28
1. Cop out. In real life can you see through a soda machine or a box? In real life can you get augs that allow you to see through walls?

2. Try reading my post before you respond. I didn't suggest adding a button to move the object lower. Here is exactly what I said:



More reading. Less typing.

The way your wording your sentences out's you as a troll. Perhaps you didn't actually suggest "Adding" a button but "assigning" a button is no better. Your just looking for an argument which I'm fine with as long as your not going to be such a blatant troll about it.

HERESY
30th Sep 2011, 23:05
The way your wording your sentences out's you as a troll.

Huh? This makes no sense. Why don't you try READING my sentences instead of putting words in my mouth, boy?


Perhaps you didn't actually suggest "Adding" a button but "assigning" a button is no better.

What in the sam hell are you talking about? Yes, I suggested using another button. I suggested using another button to do what? To peek over the top or the sides of the item you're holding!!!!! I didn't suggest it so that it would "move the object lower" which is something YOU said I did.


Your just looking for an argument which I'm fine with as long as your not going to be such a blatant troll about it.

Trolling would be not reading the posts and putting words in my mouth. Thats what you're doing. My suggestion to you is to stop playing games and brush up on reading comprehension.

luminar
30th Sep 2011, 23:37
Huh? This makes no sense. Why don't you try READING my sentences instead of putting words in my mouth, boy?



What in the sam hell are you talking about? Yes, I suggested using another button. I suggested using another button to do what? To peek over the top or the sides of the item you're holding!!!!! I didn't suggest it so that it would "move the object lower" which is something YOU said I did.



Trolling would be not reading the posts and putting words in my mouth. Thats what you're doing. My suggestion to you is to stop playing games and brush up on reading comprehension.

See what you did there? Calling me boy? That's trolling 101. peeking over the object is hardly different from moving the object lower, it's really a semantics issue. I'm not actually putting words in your mouth so much as reiterating what you've said. Again giving commands and insulting my intelligence is trolling.

HERESY
30th Sep 2011, 23:47
See what you did there? Calling me boy?

You want me to call you, girl? I'm treating you people exactly how you want to be treated. Anyone who disagress with you, etc is already labeled TROLL! You speak to me in a certain fashion and I'll do the same. It's simple. You say crazy ***** to me and throw darts my way and I'm doing it right back.



That's trolling 101.

No it's logic 101, try using your brain to do something aside from playing HR.


peeking over the object is hardly different from moving the object lower, it's really a semantics issue.

LMAO! You're killing me here, kid. Peeking over an object and lowering an object are two different things that require two different sets of muscles, etc. Do yourself a favor, go pick up a box and hold it at eye level. Peep over the box. You see that? You just used your head, neck, etc. Now lower the box from eye level. You feel that? You just used your arms to lower it. This isn't an issue of semantics. Again, being able to see inside of the boxs, but requiring augs to see through walls has nothing to do with balance.


I'm not actually putting words in your mouth so much as reiterating what you've said.

Hey, listen, you are putting words in my mouth. You aren't reiterating what I've said because what you think I said is not something I've said. What I'm saying, and what you're saying are two completely different things. Why the hell would I say to pick up something and then use a button to lower it when I plainly stated it would be to look over the top or to the sides? Again, stop trying to put words in my mouth.


Again giving commands and insulting my intelligence is trolling.

You've insulted your own intelligence by clearly NOT reading what I've typed. Again, I've said NOTHING about lowering an object. When you're holding something big, and want to get a view of what is around you, you typically look over the object or to the side.

Incredible.


This: (stated by me) "Press another button (L1 for example) and use that to peek over the top or the sides of the item."

Does NOT equate to

This: (stated by you) "suggestion to add a button to move the object lower"

luminar
30th Sep 2011, 23:53
You want me to call you, girl? I'm treating you people exactly how you want to be treated. Anyone who disagress with you, etc is already labeled TROLL! You speak to me in a certain fashion and I'll do the same. It's simple. You say crazy ***** to me and throw darts my way and I'm doing it right back.




No it's logic 101, try using your brain to do something aside from playing HR.



LMAO! You're killing me here, kid. Peeking over an object and lowering an object are two different things that require two different sets of muscles, etc. Do yourself a favor, go pick up a box and hold it at eye level. Peep over the box. You see that? You just used your head, neck, etc. Now lower the box from eye level. You feel that? You just used your arms to lower it. This isn't an issue of semantics. Again, being able to see inside of the boxs, but requiring augs to see through walls has nothing to do with balance.



Hey, listen, you are putting words in my mouth. You aren't reiterating what I've said because what you think I said is not something I've said. What I'm saying, and what you're saying are two completely different things. Why the hell would I say to pick up something and then use a button to lower it when I plainly stated it would be to look over the top or to the sides? Again, stop trying to put words in my mouth.



You've insulted your own intelligence by clearly NOT reading what I've typed. Again, I've said NOTHING about lowering an object. When you're holding something big, and want to get a view of what is around you, you typically look over the object or to the side.

Incredible.

Cursing, inflammatory language, and insult's. All I've done is civilly critiqued your point's to varying degrees of sucess. Your a troll and until you prove otherwise I'm not going to argue anymore.:)

HERESY
30th Sep 2011, 23:56
Cursing, inflammatory language, and insult's. All I've done is civilly critiqued your point's to varying degrees of sucess. Your a troll and until you prove otherwise I'm not going to argue anymore.:)

None of the above have happened. Goddamn, hell, etc are not curse words. You haven't done anything in a civil manner. What you've done is attempt to put words in my mouth but back peddle and yell TROLL when I show that you're LYING. Stop trolling your own thread, guy.

This: (stated by me) "Press another button (L1 for example) and use that to peek over the top or the sides of the item."

Does NOT equate to

This: (stated by you) "suggestion to add a button to move the object lower"

Keep that in mind as you contemplate this so-called argument.

auric
2nd Oct 2011, 01:40
Reading this it just occured to me,

What do u think about a manual combo control of takedowns?
If touch nothing the 1st stab or hit may or may not kill/KO them
depends on what his 1st hit is.

Like in "The Legends of Dragoon" a console game. have to click the right time to continue the combo.


So in this game if there's many enemy around, as long as u can click on the right time, u can take out 5 people.
If u fail to click on the right time, the takedown stops there.
:D

just a thought, not asking for them to implement it.

luminar
2nd Oct 2011, 14:40
Reading this it just occured to me,

What do u think about a manual combo control of takedowns?
If touch nothing the 1st stab or hit may or may not kill/KO them
depends on what his 1st hit is.

Like in "The Legends of Dragoon" a console game. have to click the right time to continue the combo.


So in this game if there's many enemy around, as long as u can click on the right time, u can take out 5 people.
If u fail to click on the right time, the takedown stops there.
:D

just a thought, not asking for them to implement it.

Sound's decent but I guess they would make you use up batteries until their gone.

Kvltism
2nd Oct 2011, 14:47
...Like in "The Legends of Dragoon" a console game. have to click the right time to continue the combo.

Oh, wow. I haven't played the Legend of Dragoon in years. Racking up combos with Albert was great fun. :D

Back on topic... I'm fine with the system as it is. Being able to spam takedowns would make it no challenge.

betto.poa
4th Oct 2011, 23:35
ok about the limit of godmode frontal takedowns but the takedown cost of energy combined with the xp system is awful... give back the baton or make the sneak back shoke takedown dont waste energy...

talking about that the shoke takedown is the only one that is near to be silent...i mean near because adam simple let the guy fall on the floor making a significant sound.

and something that break immersion you takedown one guy and his companions dont miss him... you should be required/rewarded sometimes for full stealth no takedowns , not be seen just take something or do something and takeoff safe.
and other times do some missions that require you to kill the bad guys in a loud way to complete . like a punishiment.

mahmoudd
6th Oct 2011, 16:38
Again, this is a cop out. You want to simulate being able to see over something? Press another button (L1 for example) and use that to peek over the top or the sides of the item. Don't give the guy magic vision and chalk it to a gameplay mechanic.



Gameplay trumps immersion? So why did we have the long back and forth over 3rd person and first person a while back? Yes, gameplay does trump immersion which is why I, a person who has constantly admitted that he doesn't like FPS, decided to give this game a try. You, on the other hand, have been butchering the game because it isn't a 100% reboot of DX, has 3rd person elements, etc. Times change, technology changes and you have to adapt. If 3rd person view is breaking immersion so is being able to see through a box, thats just common sense at this point. "Wow, I need augs to see through walls but I don't need augs to see through boxes, crates, fridges, etc."

Cop out.

Again, seeing through boxes is a COP OUT. If I'm supposed to be Adam, and your job is to place me in his world/shoes, do so as much as possible. Don't allow me to pick up crates and see directly through them and chalk it as a play mechanic. Don't allow me to move bodies with a phantom limb. Don't allow me to open doors by simply pressing a button.

third person camera switch break the immersion more than having the item in front of you transparent when you hold it

HERESY
8th Oct 2011, 21:14
third person camera switch break the immersion more than having the item in front of you transparent when you hold it

Your opinion. Thanks for typing it.

TheUnbeholden
9th Oct 2011, 18:37
I got it right, you got it wrong.



...OK now I understand why people are calling him arrogant.





I'm having a discussion with an individual who is so warped with his vision of what a game should be (a clone of the original),

Yep, rational discussion with you has gone flying out the window, kid.



and ignorant.




Trolling would be not reading the posts and putting words in your mouth. Thats what you're doing. My suggestion to you is to stop playing games and brush up on reading comprehension.

Being a troll isn't about being ignorant... not at all.

Trolling is posting remarks that are designed to provoke a hateful response. Baiting people into arguments, using ad hominem's rather than addressing a persons points (which is what you've done by using condescending remarks like boy, son, kid, more reading less typing, & other mocking statements) & creating counter arguments based on small quotes from a persons response rather the rest of what their saying (so ignoring most of the points someone brings up)... this is all text book trolling and you are a doing a fine job. Which was brought up here. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1696535&postcount=103)

I'm not saying people are not allowed to vent their emotions, but forums don't exist solely for catharsis but for rational debate (to get points across and help form opinions)... and also for informing people (like with constructive criticism & walkthroughs)... and to have fun & kill some time.



3rd person is where it's at! Eidos should have implemented an option for 3rd person only, first person only or the 1st/3rd hybrid.

BTW, does Adam have an aug that allows him to see through the objects he picks up and holds in first person mode? No. So why can he do it?

What does that matter, its such a minor thing ... no where near as immersion breaking as third person.

Well Max Payne was quite immersive eventhough it was third person.. it was like playing a comic book, a comic book brought to life. I think it just fit the world it was trying to create. And I'm saying first person fits Deus Ex perhaps because we've seen it in action in the 2 previous games and perhaps because first person is just inherently more immersive than 3rd.

Does a hrybrid system make it more or less immersive? It leads to less consistency because the game can't decide which its suppose to be so I'd say less so. It is stylish though & Eidos Montreal had experience with the system from Rainbow Six Vegas.

But if we where to talk about things from a gameplay perspective like Ashpolt was saying, being able to see around corners without having to risk exposing yourself like lean keys would, feels a bit cheap. Having radar rammed down our throats doesn't exactly make the situation better.



More reading. Less typing.



try using your brain to do something aside from playing HR.

ugh enough.

auric
9th Oct 2011, 20:43
wasn't seeing through picked objects from DX1 too?

HERESY
10th Oct 2011, 01:24
...OK now I understand why people are calling him arrogant.

People can call me whatever they want. They are entitled to their opinion. BTW, the quote you posted was in response to this:


If you're going to tell me what I'm saying, at least get it right.

It has nothing to do with arrogance, but thanks for showing the board that you're a selective reader.


and ignorant.

I already gave you a free one, you can find out why I said that be reading the entire thread.


Being a troll isn't about being ignorant... not at all.

I guess you would know.


Trolling is posting remarks that are designed to provoke a hateful response. Baiting people into arguments, using ad hominem's rather than addressing a persons points (which is what you've done by using condescending remarks like boy, son, kid, more reading less typing, & other mocking statements) & creating counter arguments based on small quotes from a persons response rather the rest of what their saying (so ignoring most of the points someone brings up)... this is all text book trolling and you are a doing a fine job. Which was brought up here.

I always address every single point which is why I use the quote feature. It's like I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. One guy says I use the quote too much and I'm trolling, now you're saying I'm trolling because I use it and don't create counter arguments (which is a lie from the pit of hell) but the mod’s and god’s have said NOTHING about my posts. Why is that? Because I'm not trolling. You would think that with several people shouting "TROLL" that I would get a warning, but the mod’s and god’s see that I'm simply responding to false accusations, fallacies and illogical rants. But thanks for educating me about all things that are troll, I appreciate it.

BTW, concerning the link you posted, I didn't need to provide an in depth response to the guy because his premise was that the game isn't as balanced as the original. With that being said, he was provided with a logical answer.


I'm not saying people are not allowed to vent their emotions, but forums don't exist solely for catharsis but for rational debate (to get points across and help form opinions)... and also for informing people (like with constructive criticism & walkthroughs)... and to have fun & kill some time.

Who are you the spokesman for internet utopia? Why did you type that?


What does that matter, its such a minor thing ... no where near as immersion breaking as third person.

It's a minor thing for you. It's not a minor thing for myself. Why? Because I enjoy 3rd, don't like 1st and if I'm going to be in the role of a character, I should be placed in that characters shoes, that characters world and have to live with the limititations of that person. Now the same can be applied to 3rd person as well, one can argue you shouldn't be able to do it, but what I'm pointing out is the hypocrisy of people such as yourself. You scream "IT BREAKS IMMERSHUNS!!!!!!!" yet when someone states what breaks immersion for them, or what is completely illogical within the confines of the game, you sweep it under the rug and say "Oh that’s’ not important."


Well Max Payne was quite immersive eventhough it was third person.. it was like playing a comic book, a comic book brought to life. I think it just fit the world it was trying to create. And I'm saying first person fits Deus Ex perhaps because we've seen it in action in the 2 previous games and perhaps because first person is just inherently more immersive than 3rd.

These are your opinions.


Does a hrybrid system make it more or less immersive? It leads to less consistency because the game can't decide which its suppose to be so I'd say less so. It is stylish though & Eidos Montreal had experience with the system from Rainbow Six Vegas.

The game doesn't decide, you, as the player, decide (ladders and takedowns excluded.)


But if we where to talk about things from a gameplay perspective like Ashpolt was saying, being able to see around corners without having to risk exposing yourself like lean keys would, feels a bit cheap. Having radar rammed down our throats doesn't exactly make the situation better.

SMH. So you people want to sit behind a box and not see anything? In regards to the radar, in previous posts I asked for the option to be able to turn the entire hud off.


ugh enough.

My thoughts after reading your post. You read my mind, captain!

JCpies
10th Oct 2011, 05:49
You should have the option of radar or situational awareness package which allows you to go into third person.

TheUnbeholden
10th Oct 2011, 15:09
It has nothing to do with arrogance,


You're telling him what hes thinking, if that isn't arrogance then you must be god or a mind reader.




I already gave you a free one, you can find out why I said that be reading the entire thread.

Well Ashpolt has stated why you're analysis of what he wants is wrong. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1697039&postcount=112)



I always address every single point which is why I use the quote feature. It's like I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. One guy says I use the quote too much and I'm trolling, now you're saying I'm trolling because I use it and don't create counter arguments (which is a lie from the pit of hell) but the mod’s and god’s have said NOTHING about my posts. Why is that? Because I'm not trolling. You would think that with several people shouting "TROLL" that I would get a warning, but the mod’s and god’s see that I'm simply responding to false accusations, fallacies and illogical rants. But thanks for educating me about all things that are troll, I appreciate it.


Well most trolls wouldn't admit they are one, and some don't realize they are.

Just like those who are insane would never say they are.




BTW, concerning the link you posted, I didn't need to provide an in depth response to the guy because his premise was that the game isn't as balanced as the original. With that being said, he was provided with a logical answer.


Oh just noticed it.


Who are you the spokesman for internet utopia? Why did you type that?


I like giving my opinions, helps me arrange my thoughts and thought you would like to know.



It's a minor thing for you. It's not a minor thing for myself. Why? Because I enjoy 3rd, don't like 1st and if I'm going to be in the role of a character, I should be placed in that characters shoes, that characters world and have to live with the limititations of that person. Now the same can be applied to 3rd person as well, one can argue you shouldn't be able to do it, but what I'm pointing out is the hypocrisy of people such as yourself. You scream "IT BREAKS IMMERSHUNS!!!!!!!" yet when someone states what breaks immersion for them, or what is completely illogical within the confines of the game, you sweep it under the rug and say "Oh that’s’ not important."

ok sorry!

well if you feel strongly about then I won't tell you to feel otherwise.




These are your opinions.


yeah. Well do I really need to put IMO after everything I say?

almost everything people say are opinions, that would be alot of IMO scattered through a post :D


The game doesn't decide, you, as the player, decide (ladders and takedowns excluded.)


yeah. Well do I really need to put IMO after everything I say? ...Deja vu


SMH. So you people want to sit behind a box and not see anything? In regards to the radar, in previous posts I asked for the option to be able to turn the entire hud off.


Awesome, so I guess we actually agree again :D how does that keep happening

pukster
10th Oct 2011, 18:06
3rd person cam makes the game SOOOOO easy. If that wasn't enough they give us a map, a mini map and goal markers. I'm surprised they don't give you a piece of string marking your way through the level, ala Minotaur (you'd think Jean-François Dugas would be jumping at the chance for more Greek metaphors)

drunkrussian9
10th Oct 2011, 18:36
He's here too . . . run!

IMO third person does break immersion for me too, it's just so much more natural for me to hide behind cover and lean out to see enemies, (like paintball) of course then you have radar which tells you where the enemies are and where theyre looking, making even the first person cover easy as pie.

HERESY
10th Oct 2011, 19:24
You're telling him what hes thinking, if that isn't arrogance then you must be god or a mind reader.

Yet when people continually misquote me or tell me what I'm thinking or saying (even though I've typed it and made it so all can understand) people such as yourself or people who yell "TROLLLLLLZ" say nothing. Based on what he typed, I can tell him what he is thinking or what he is implying because my assessment is based on....drum roll...critical reading!!!!


Well Ashpolt has stated why you're analysis of what he wants is wrong.

That link has nothing to do with what you quoted. I haven't had time to go over his response. Moreover, if the guy who I was originally replying to isn't trying to defend his own point, I'll place very little stock in what Ashpolt says. For future references, you need to pay attention to the flow of the conversation and when these posts are made because as I stated before, the link you posted has NOTHING to do with what you quoted.


Well most trolls wouldn't admit they are one, and some don't realize they are.

Just like those who are insane would never say they are.

This is coming from a person who has shown several times now that he can't keep up with the exchange. Of course people like you would think troll; you misconstrue things, engage in selective reading practices and tend to ignore your own contradictions. In other words, due to your own shortcomings, you point the finger and say "SEE, HE'S A TROLLZ HE BE WRONGS!!!" However, the mod's and god's of the forum see it and regardless of what yourself and others claim, not ONE of them has sent me a PM. You know why? Because they see what's going on here, they see I'm simply replying to people who are warped and have no problem being verbal contortionists.

BTW, "insane" or "insanity" is a LEGAL term, not a medical term, but to state that people who are insane would never say they are is insanity itself. When people plead insanity in court cases what are they doing? LOL!


Oh just noticed it.

In the future it would be best if you WAITED before you pointed your finger...


I like giving my opinions, helps me arrange my thoughts and thought you would like to know.

Yet when I give my opinion I get hit with "TROLL" and all sorts of wacky accusations, lol.


ok sorry!

well if you feel strongly about then I won't tell you to feel otherwise.

Yet that is what you and others have been doing with me. When I point it out you guys don't like it and make these crazy claims. So let's get back to the hypocrisy for a minute. Are you going to address it?


yeah. Well do I really need to put IMO after everything I say?
almost everything people say are opinions, that would be alot of IMO scattered through a post

You're a selective reader and take things out of context so what you do is ultimately up to you. I know what I'm dealing with here so I'm not going to offer you a suggestion because it will go unheeded and your question isn't genuine anyway. The point is, when you make the claim that "first person is just inherently more immersive than 3rd" you're attempting to state it as fact and not as opinion.


yeah. Well do I really need to put IMO after everything I say? ...Deja vu

Your claim was that the game can't decide what it wants to be. You were shown that with certain exceptions, the choice is yours to make. In fact, you can take the take downs off the list because you don't have to use them. So, with the exception of ladders, 3rd person play is YOUR choice, not the games.


Awesome, so I guess we actually agree again how does that keep happening

Probably because you're paying more attention to what I'm saying or you’re jumping to conclusions and I have to show you something to the contrary.

TheUnbeholden
11th Oct 2011, 10:23
but to state that people who are insane would never say they are is insanity itself


Bolder dash, pobby ****, Jiminy Cricket's ... the only person who ever admitted to me that they where insane when I knew they where insane is my grandfather… but that doesn't count because he was a ghost at the time he said it.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.




BTW, "insane" or "insanity" is a LEGAL term, not a medical term, but to state that people who are insane would never say they are is insanity itself. When people plead insanity in court cases what are they doing? LOL!

What their lawyer said.

Or what a specialist determined.

Or, if you have seen court cases you should know how either criminals get desperate and would prefer to go to a less despicable place like a mental institution and have reduced sentence which they typically get...




That link has nothing to do with what you quoted. I haven't had time to go over his response. Moreover, if the guy who I was [I]originally replying to isn't trying to defend his own point, I'll place very little stock in what Ashpolt says. For future references, you need to pay attention to the flow of the conversation and when these posts are made because as I stated before, the link you posted has NOTHING to do with what you quoted.

I quoted you're response to Ashpolt in this thread, then I quoted you asking me to look through this thread....the link I gave you is a response to something you think about Ashpolt.

Its got everything to do with this conversation eventhough its got very little to do with the quote. So don't go on a unrelated tangent please.




This is coming from a person who has shown several times now that he can't keep up with the exchange. Of course people like you would think troll; you misconstrue things, engage in selective reading practices and tend to ignore your own contradictions. In other words, due to your own shortcomings, you point the finger and say "SEE, HE'S A TROLLZ HE BE WRONGS!!!" However, the mod's and god's of the forum see it and regardless of what yourself and others claim, not ONE of them has sent me a PM. You know why? Because they see what's going on here, they see I'm simply replying to people who are warped and have no problem being verbal contortionists.

I've only read a few of you're posts, I may not keep up with the exchange like the 'boss' thread thats a bit to long for me to have the time to go through.... but I am critical reader. You have been a condescending old git.
And plus, personally, I wouldn't ban you or even give you a warning. You're to small of a offender.



Yet when I give my opinion I get hit with "TROLL" and all sorts of wacky accusations, lol.


I suppose I just come across nicer or indifferent.

I have only ever been banned once and that was for going over board & accusing someone of 'selling out' when they promised to stay a free project. It was a sad day.



The point is, when you make the claim that "first person is just inherently more immersive than 3rd" you're attempting to state it as fact and not as opinion.


I don't care what you think it sounds like.. that's your opinion ;)
If its coming from my mouth or if I'm writing it, then its my opinion.
Thats why I'm not going to put IMO everywhere.

The only way that it can't is if I'm backing it up with lots of subjective opinions (like surveys, polls, reviews) or with objective evidence, like video footage, scientific investigation ect.

and plus... We are not entitled to our opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions. Without research, without background, without understanding, it’s nothing. You go on about Ashpolt wanting it to be like the original Deus Ex yet you haven’t even played the game or read his posts on the subject.


Your claim was that the game can't decide what it wants to be. You were shown that with certain exceptions, the choice is yours to make. In fact, you can take the take downs off the list because you don't have to use them. So, with the exception of ladders, 3rd person play is YOUR choice, not the games.


You can't use stealth without the cover system because there's no way to hide behind low cover without it.

So its not really a choice to use it or not, if you want to use stealth. And combat becomes harder without the cover system (and without takedowns). Again if Eidos wanted to give the choice to use 3rd person then they would have given us lean keys. You really chose a bad opinion to push on everyone.

pukster
11th Oct 2011, 11:47
Your opinion. Thanks for typing it.

One does not need to be an FBI profiler to guess which comments are Heresy's and which are everyone elses.

No offense, but people are just going to start ignoring you.

HERESY
11th Oct 2011, 23:07
One does not need to be an FBI profiler to guess which comments are Heresy's and which are everyone elses.

No offense, but people are just going to start ignoring you.

More lunacy. LOL@ caring if I'm ignored. Pal, I can make a thread on this site and people like you are going to flock to it, call me troll, post crazy pics, lie and still never get their point across. Go look at the boss fight thread. I'm being ignored. Sure.

HERESY
11th Oct 2011, 23:44
Bolder dash, pobby , Jiminy Cricket's ... the only person who ever admitted to me that they where insane when I knew they where insane is my grandfather… but that doesn't count because he was a ghost at the time he said it.

Good luck with that.


Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

Many would agree, yes, but this wasn't your initial claim.


What their lawyer said. Or what a specialist determined.

Neither, it's what the trier of fact accepts or what the state and defense agree with.


Or, if you have seen court cases you should know how either criminals get desperate and would prefer to go to a less despicable place like a mental institution and have reduced sentence which they typically get...

Sometimes they are held until they are competent enough to stand trial. In many cases, they are held longer than what they would have recieved if they went to trial and were convicted. A lot of it varies from court to court.


I quoted you're response to Ashpolt in this thread, then I quoted you asking me to look through this thread....the link I gave you is a response to something you think about Ashpolt.

Its got everything to do with this conversation eventhough its got very little to do with the quote. So don't go on a unrelated tangent please.

Everything to do with the conversation but very little to do with the quote? LOL!


I've only read a few of you're posts, I may not keep up with the exchange like the 'boss' thread thats a bit to long for me to have the time to go through.... but I am critical reader. You have been [I]a condescending old git.And plus, personally, I wouldn't ban you or even give you a warning. You're to small of a offender.

I like the part in itallics. You got any more of those? In regards to the other stuff you still imply TROLLZ! You've only read a few posts? Yet you were able to form a logical assessment based on them? Suspect.


I suppose I just come across nicer or indifferent.

I have only ever been banned once and that was for going over board & accusing someone of 'selling out' when they promised to stay a free project. It was a sad day.

I've never been banned here. I've only been banned once myself and the entire website was up in arms and demanded that I be allowed to come back. No sad days for me, I have people who love me on and offline, I can't help it and they can't help it.


I don't care what you think it sounds like.. that's your opinion
If its coming from my mouth or if I'm writing it, then its my opinion.
Thats why I'm not going to put IMO everywhere.

The only way that it can't is if I'm backing it up with lots of subjective opinions (like surveys, polls, reviews) or with objective evidence, like video footage, scientific investigation ect.

Filler and word-jugglery.


and plus... We are not entitled to our opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions. Without research, without background, without understanding, it’s nothing. You go on about Ashpolt wanting it to be like the original Deus Ex yet you haven’t even played the game or read his posts on the subject.

Ashpolt isn't here to defend himself so stop talking about him. Are you his keeper or something? Anyway, this is the last time I'll address the guy in this thread while he isn't here: 1.) Playing DX is not a prerequisite to stating my assessment about the guy, his lust for DX and how he wants DX:HD. 2.) He keeps making claims about "most" yet he has provided no research or data to support his claims. Stop talking to me about the guy.


You can't use stealth without the cover system because there's no way to hide behind low cover without it.

Crouch or find somewhere else to take cover. One reviewer who had the demo (the one provided by EM not the leak) played through it using cover and not using cover and according to his experience he found not using 3rd person a bit more difficult but also more rewarding.


So its not really a choice to use it or not, if you want to use stealth.

It is a choice. You simply have to make better choices and know when and when not to move.


And combat becomes harder without the cover system (and without takedowns).

So. Adapt.


Again if Eidos wanted to give the choice to use 3rd person then they would have given us lean keys and crouch button. You really chose a bad opinion to push on everyone.

I have a crouch button and I can go into cover and lean out even more. I'm playing on a PS3.

Thanks Eidos, for providing a first person game that truly shines when you're in 3rd!!!!

HERESY
11th Oct 2011, 23:45
Make the third-person camera a literal camera object locked onto the protagonist's position, humming and floating about like a remote-controlled helicopter toy (without being a helicopter toy), and make it clank audibly and disrupt the image when it collides with anything. Have it "spool out" on an energy tether, and feed the view to augmented eyes, but otherwise act as usual. Have it fictionally powered the same way as the exploding remote-controlled drones of DX1.

No.

pukster
12th Oct 2011, 00:23
Make the third-person camera a literal camera object locked onto the protagonist's position, humming and floating about like a remote-controlled helicopter toy (without being a helicopter toy), and make it clank audibly and disrupt the image when it collides with anything. Have it "spool out" on an energy tether, and feed the view to augmented eyes, but otherwise act as usual. Have it fictionally powered the same way as the exploding remote-controlled drones of DX1, but visible to AIs until the cloaking aug is activated.

ya basically make it an aug which uses batteries.

auric
12th Oct 2011, 01:51
You know, I remember hearing people yapping about going all FP & ignoring the TP.
So what happen to it? are there threads or youtubers talking/showing their FPS only playthrough?

TheUnbeholden
12th Oct 2011, 03:43
You've only read a few posts? Yet you were able to form a logical assessment based on them? Suspect.

I've always been a good judge of character, its one of my talents.




Everything to do with the conversation but very little to do with the quote? LOL!

This is about the other thread, the whole coversation is about you calling him a guy that wants a carbon copy of Deus Ex... this started on a different thread, you just took it here. So I don't really get what you're problem is... The only reason I quoted that was because it was you're response to what I wrote. I rather useless response I might add...

So why are you lolling?



Ashpolt isn't here to defend himself so stop talking about him.

Hes doing that on the other thread... where this belongs.



Many would agree, yes, but this wasn't your initial claim.

My initial claim didn't define insanity....



Neither, it's what the trier of fact accepts or what the state and defense agree with.

Legally speaking yes. But I'm not talking about that, I'm saying its not the actual criminal who is admitting they are insane... as they would not say they are insane (and believe it), but would merely try to use it to get out jail and into a nicer place :D.


Filler and word-jugglery.


You're responses seem like that to me alot of the time. You say so much, yet say so little. Quite politician like.




I have a crouch button and I can go into cover and lean out even more.

You can't lean without using the cover system. You have to expose you're whole body rather then just you're head as leaning would imply.




Thanks Eidos, for providing a first person game that truly shines when you're in 3rd!!!!

eh... yeah, but not without sacrifices.

HERESY
12th Oct 2011, 08:50
I've always been a good judge of character, its one of my talents.

Sure.


This is about the other thread, the whole coversation is about you calling him a guy that wants a carbon copy of Deus Ex... this started on a different thread, you just took it here.

If this is about another thread keep it there. In fact, I think YOU are the only person posting links to other threads. Everything I've said to the guy was based on the totality of his statements. However, I'm not addressing him. He isn't defending himself so there is no need for you to be the bastion of light and champion of the netz.


So I don't really get what you're problem is... The only reason I quoted that was because it was you're response to what I wrote. I rather useless response I might add...

So why are you lolling?

Useless like the majority of your posts? Go figure. I'm laughing because you aren't making any sense.


Hes doing that on the other thread... where this belongs.

Where this belongs? This doesn't belong there. This is a thread devoted to 3rd person being an aug. The other thread pertains to boss battles. "OMG!!! YOU'RE TRYING TO DERAIL THREADZ, U TROLL!!!!!"

BTW, go to page one of this thread. Read my FIRST response and read the person who quotes me. Thanks for once again FAILING to keep up with the flow of the conversation.


My initial claim didn't define insanity....

It was implied, you didn't have to define the finer points. Moreover, no matter which way you define it, it's still false. If we accept the Einstein definition of insanity, you would still be wrong as there are plenty of people who do the same thing over and over, expecting different results and admit that they do it (which would be an admission or acknowledgement of insanity.)

Better luck next time, champ.


Legally speaking yes.

But a couple of posts ago it was lawyers and talking-heads.


But I'm not talking about that, I'm saying its not the actual criminal who is admitting they are insane... as they would not say they are insane (and believe it), but would merely try to use it to get out jail and into a nicer place .

You aren't making any sense. A criminal (via counsel or some stroke of genius) can make the claim. It is up to the specialists to provide their opinion (based on observation, time with the defendent, tests, etc) but it's ultimately up to the trier of fact (judge or jury) to decide if the insanity defense is one that will be allowed.

Again, there are plenty of people who have done the exact opposite of what you just said. I may take the time to provide you with isbns of books devoted to the subject or court cases you can look up on your own (I'll even provide instruction on how to properly look up a court case.)

Nope. Scratch that. You're a selective reader.


You're responses seem like that to me alot of the time. You say so much, yet say so little. Quite politician like.

Thanks for the compliments.


You can't lean without using the cover system. You have to expose you're whole body rather then just you're head as leaning would imply.

Doesn't matter. The point is you went babbling on about cover and claimed Eidos didn't offer you a crouch button, but this is false. You obviously haven't been using the crouch button or trying to go the stealth route in first person. But did I ever say you could lean without using the cover system? I do recall specifically saying "I can go into cover and lean out even more." Big difference, pal.


eh... yeah, but not without sacrifices.

This is coming from the person who didn't know there was a crouch button and makes the claim that you can't use stealth without the cover system.

You're a PRIME example of what I've been saying all along! Good job!

TheUnbeholden
12th Oct 2011, 10:33
But a couple of posts ago it was lawyers.

Either you're being delibratly thick or you really are.

Ok I've had enough of this abuse and going around in circles with you.

pukster
12th Oct 2011, 16:50
DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!!!!