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gyron
28th Sep 2011, 18:33
Guide for setting up double take-down (DTD) opportunities that preserve stealth and don't spoil the Ghost.

***See this guide on wiki (http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Takedown#Double_Takedowns_Guide)***



INTRODUCTION:
Deus Ex: Human Revolution is easy as a stealth game — there is no arguing about it. As a veteran stealth player I've never found myself challenged even during the first playthrough, which was mostly a melee-only pacifist/ghost run on hard difficulty. It's a shame, because the potential is there: multi-layered level design with precise 3D movement, integration between physics and AI, great path-finding... but flat difficulty curve, blind enemies and, most of all, overpowered stealth tools (cloak) kill the pure sneaky fun and never force you to explore all the stealth options this game has to offer. Though I liked stealth well enough to replay DXHR two times more, I had to artificially restrict myself in some ways to get any satisfaction out of it.

One of the restrictions that is not arbitrary and in some way recognized by the game itself came from XP rewards. 'Ghost' bonus is given for completing the mission unseen and implemented for players who try to get through levels never touching anybody. An example of this play-style is GreasedScotsman's "Zero Takedown Ghost" run (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=120522). As for enemies, non-lethal double take-downs give the maximum XP reward per head (125/2=62.5 XP) but likely intended as just a panic move for CQC, not as the main and only weapon. You can see how easy it is to abuse double take-downs (non-stealthily). (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LRLnn1GQgw)

I thought that combining both play styles in one play-through, i.e. getting all the 'Ghosts' AND performing as many double take-downs as possible without being seen should be considered the game's "Ultimate stealth challenge". And with each area taking 2-3 hours instead of usual 20-30 minutes, with 5-10 reloads per each Ghost rating, I was challenged alright. This play style required mastering both stealth and aggressive techniques, completing all the side-quests to get XP for the stealth augmentations early, exploring a lot to find enough consumables for the augs — basically doing everything it was possible to do in the game in one go.

As a by-product to this "do-all" approach, I was able to, rather unexpectedly, gain all the augs by the end of the game. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1698781&postcount=32) And though I don't list every DTD here I've counted and verified all possible DTD in the game on Experience by area (http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_by_area_(DX3)) wiki page, so refer to it if you want to know the maximum number of DTD in each area. As a side note, there are 376 enemies in the game total and I've performed 166 DTD (332 enemies = 88%) using these methods.




METHODS:

Here is the list of methods for setting up double take-downs that I've regularly used. Most of them are meant to trick a single enemy into moving close enough to the the other enemy for a DTD. All these work well on normal enemies in relaxed state (that appear gray on the radar). Fully alerted enemies act differently, but since this is a Ghost guide, enemies are presumed to always remain unalerted, i.e. they never go 'hostile', find a body or get suspicious enough to go into 'long alert' state. Exceptions are the Alice Garden Pods, Penthouse and the first Picus mission, where guards are in a "permanent alert" state. Generally they react more unpredictably than normal enemies, so more caution and less noisy methods are required when dealing with them.

The number of stars (*) shows the "stealthiness", i.e. how risky it is to turn enemies hostile while trying to pull off a particular method.


***MINOR SPOILERS***


Use the cloak and silent movement augs (*)
Of course you can cheese every DTD with these augs, but it's feels very unsportsmanlike and quickly drains your candy bar supplies. There are only 30-40 (out of 166) DTD in the game that are very hard to perform without augs. All other DTD can be done on a single rechargeable cell. And even if you absolutely have to use the augs never more than 1 charged cell is needed. There are at least ~120 energy cells that can be recharged by consumables, and I had 45 spare cells by the end of the game, so there is a huge surplus of energy for this augs to be abused, but still not enough for every DTD.

http://s3.postimage.org/6mjw5mu78/DXHR_DTG_Invisibility_DT.jpg


Exploit pre-set opportunities (*)
There are tons of cases where enemies are kindly placed close enough together for DTD. If they're talking, do it before they finish their dialogue and separate. Approach them from the back or abuse their limited cone of sight.

BLdf3Gb4zFg


Provoke a guard to move to your position by trespassing a secure zone (*)
Simple and safe method for setting up DTD, but useful only in a handful of places, where enemies are normally friendly, but issue a warning when you go inside a secure zone then turn hostile if you don't move away. Examples: DRB's territory entrance, MCB's apartment, Belltower blockades in Hensha.

cq9rkQ51cdw


Lure enemies by throwing physic objects (**)
Sound disturbances that are caused by objects when they hit the walls or floors alert every enemy in their radius. But after a few seconds everyone goes back to normal state except for one guy who remains alert and goes to investigate. There are two set of parameters affecting what he does next.



Type of disturbance (aural/visual):


If enemy SEES a thrown object, i.e. has it hitting something in his cone of vision, he will investigate the place object was thrown from. If multiple enemies have seen the object, game usually picks the enemy closest to throwing location to investigate.
If enemy HEARS a thrown object, but not SEES it, he will investigate the place of sound disturbance.



Object weight (light/heavy):


Small and Medium objects cause only a single enemy to remain alert (unless they hit him instead of a wall -- then bye, Ghost).
Heavy objects (that require Strength aug to lift) sometimes lead two enemies, not one, to investigate the same place together, thus giving a very easy DTD, but are too unreliable to use as a primary method. Single/double investigation is affected by the amount of noise produced and force of the throw but it's difficult to replicate the result on different throws. So it's better not to use them.



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Lure single enemies to your position by visually alerting them (**)
Peek from cover in 3rd person OR, when in first person, move back and forth to alert them and then move behind cover. If you do it quickly (0.5-1.5 seconds, depending on distance), enemies won't become hostile and will investigate your last known position instead. The most reliable method, since you don't need anything for it besides cover and enemies reaction to it is very predictable. I ended up using it in half of the DTD setups.

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Human Shield (**).
A combination of "peeking from cover" method + the fact that human bodies are opaque to AI's vision:

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Lure single enemies to your position by running or jumping in their vicinity (**)
When in limited space or with no objects at hand use Adam's natural noise device -- his legs. Jump, run or sprint to produce a sound disturbance and lure an enemy to investigate it. Make sure that there is a cover to hide behind and walk/crouch behind it, so no one follows you.

MIthEInSgsw


Re-route enemies by blocking their normal patrol paths (***)
This method exploits the fact that AI moves between few static points always using the shortest route possible. Build a "wall" so a gap between physical and static objects is less than an enemy's size. Everything middle- or XL-sized will do (crates, boxes, barrels, dumpsters, fridges). So, when patrolling enemy can't get from point A to point B using his normal route he will choose second shortest path, presumably the one that leads him to being punched along with his friend.

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Stop an enemy from moving by blocking him with physic objects (***)
Modification of previous method that requires either completely surrounding an enemy with crates or plugging every hole in his patrol path. If he can't get to any of his patrol points he will just stop and won't move at all unless you unblock his path. Useful when you know the spawn points beforehand.

ckbBMudmINA


Lead an enemy where you need him to be with shots from a silenced weapon (***)
A bullet produces a noise when it hits something and this tricks a guard into investigating the point of impact. Surprisingly, an enemy seeing or hearing your shots doesn't affect Ghost in any way. He'll be still as amused by 10th shot as he was the first time. This works on bots too, if you need to distract them. Obviously this trick requires a silenced weapon (pistol, SMG, rifle), some spare ammo and a safe place to shoot from.

JOXN4IqfyVE


Approach groups of enemies unseen by "rolling" a crate in front of you (***)
Crouch and push a crate in front of you to approach the foes safely and unseen. No one will bat an eyelash when they see a box rolling towards them. You can even do it with heavy crates once you get the strength aug. BUT if you turn on the invisibility cloak enemies will spot you ("Holy s**t, look at that!") when you as much as nudge a physic object and you will forfeit your Ghost bonus.

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Buffer zone take-down (***)

Sometimes there is an odd number of enemies in a room. You knock every pair out, but have one leftover -- no problem, you think, there is a lone guard patrolling nearby. You try to trick him into DTD, but no matter what you do (jump, shoot, let him see you), this stupid punk just won't go out of his favorite room or corridor as if blocked by an invisible wall -- it means that he came to the border of his assigned "zone" and there is simply no possibility of making him leave it.

Still, there is a way to perform a DTD in this situation -- it's nothing new, really -- just a combination of Noise Luring and Crate Blocking methods. All you have to do is bring two enemies to a "buffer zone" (the border between zones they are assigned to) and stop them from moving away.

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Combine different methods to resolve complex situations
As an example, here is a TYM Penthouse level, the most difficult challenge I've faced on this play-thorough. It was cleared of all 10 Belltower guards using only double take-downs, with Ghost intact. Methods used: stealth augs, path blocking, peeking from cover, jump luring.

chX5RCAdmPU


If you think that's too slow — here is the same scenario resolved in less than a minute:

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And last addition, Omega Ranch level (Singapore) cleared in DTD+Ghost/speedrun fashion, i.e. with all enemies knocked out as fast as possible but with total disregard for energy resources.

aGE3SB7hByo



EDIT1: Added 'Luring with shots' method.
EDIT2: Added 'Provoke by trespassing' method.
EDIT3: Added 'Human Shield' trick, 'Buffer Zone take-down' method, link to Experience by area (http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_by_area_(DX3)).
EDIT4: Added Omega Ranch video, link to this guide on wiki: Takedown (http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Takedown).

drunkrussian9
28th Sep 2011, 19:52
Lol last vid at 3:23 bwahahahahahaha

Sounds challenging.

JCpies
28th Sep 2011, 19:57
I've tried a bit of this here and there, pretty challenging and gives you a good amount of XP. Nice guide!!!

Spinaltap
28th Sep 2011, 20:13
In the "rolling" crate vid; how did you get 2 praxis points so you could do the double takedown so early in the game?

Jibbajabba
28th Sep 2011, 20:19
Last one is impressive. Would love to see your Picus approach :)

itsonyourhead
28th Sep 2011, 20:27
Nah. That's not challenging. Just long. You just have to be patient/exploit the AI.

You want a real challenge? Stealth speed runs.

Rule 1: Only aug you can use is silent feet.
Rule 2: Run as fast as you can through the level without being seen.

jeyeichkey
28th Sep 2011, 20:35
@gyron

How entertaining! Can you do that throughout the whole game or do you have to have some kind of weapons?
I might just save this link for pleasure value. Those clips were fun to watch.

@itsonyourhead

But it's sure fun to watch those guards go down. Never makes me tired of it anyway ;^)

ECM_specialist
28th Sep 2011, 20:50
One method not mentioned: lure them with hits from silenced weapons :cool:. If you fire with a silenced weapon, they go investigate the place where you hit. If you hit another one nearby, they'll go investigating that too. In my first walktrough, I actually fired my weapon with purpose of luring guards more, than to kill :) . Its very funny -- I control enemy soldiers with my weapon like with remote :). Once you master your art of controlling enemy mind and movements, Double Takedown Ghost is easy :).

jeyeichkey
28th Sep 2011, 21:00
To be able to get the Ghost, you may not make the enemies hostile, correct?
And alarmed is still unnoticed when wanting the sneaky part, right?

Kiyanavasala
28th Sep 2011, 23:08
In the "rolling" crate vid; how did you get 2 praxis points so you could do the double takedown so early in the game?

Presumably by acquiring the full 180 XP from the prologue section by scoring fatal headshots on every enemy, maximum XP without metagaming in Sarif HQ (To save all the hacking XP for later) and taking a ZTG approach to the Factory mission--with the possible exception of taking the Frag Grenade from one of the storage rooms for use on the level's solitary active turret--and then moving back and forth through the level as appropriate once the second Praxis Point is acquired.

It's doable--managed to squeeze eight DTs out of the Factory mission myself--and I didn't use half the tricks listed here. In fact, the only reason I ended up running out of possible DTs was because I ran out of Conc Nades to keep pairs of enemies still for long enough to deal with.

There'd be more possible DTs available if the AI was capable of moving beyond its specified setpiece rooms, but sadly they just end up gathering at whatever doorway you lure them to.

Gratz, Gyron! The community continues to amaze.

Spinaltap
28th Sep 2011, 23:31
Presumably by acquiring the full 180 XP from the prologue section by scoring fatal headshots on every enemy, maximum XP without metagaming in Sarif HQ (To save all the hacking XP for later) and taking a ZTG approach to the Factory mission--with the possible exception of taking the Frag Grenade from one of the storage rooms for use on the level's solitary active turret--and then moving back and forth through the level as appropriate once the second Praxis Point is acquired.

It's doable--managed to squeeze eight DTs out of the Factory mission myself--and I didn't use half the tricks listed here. In fact, the only reason I ended up running out of possible DTs was because I ran out of Conc Nades to keep pairs of enemies still for long enough to deal with.

There'd be more possible DTs available if the AI was capable of moving beyond its specified setpiece rooms, but sadly they just end up gathering at whatever doorway you lure them to.

Gratz, Gyron! The community continues to amaze.

is there a video of this? I don't understand what half this stuff means. "fatal headshots in prologe, metagaming in Sarif HQ, ZTG"

GreasedScotsman
29th Sep 2011, 00:01
@gyron: Awesome post. I really enjoyed the videos and agree this sort of playthrough would require an immense amount of timing and patience. Definitely intrigued.

@Spinaltap: ZTG = Zero Takedown Ghost, a reference to my playthrough cited in the first post (thanks gyron). Fatal headshots = ensuring you're getting the maximum XP from the XP bonus provided when you headshot someone... which is one of the few ways to earn XP at the start of the game since you can't knock anyone out with your fists yet.

Not quite sure what they mean by metagaming... though presumably they mean since you are focused on getting double-takedown as soon as possible, you must forgo increasing your security hack skills, which lets you earn a ton of XP through hacking the Sarif offices.

Locutus of BORG
29th Sep 2011, 00:06
Nice.

Honestly, since you've completed the All-Aug's Challenge on this board as well, you really should've put that in your thread title as well. 3 challenges in 1 PT, good job!

Spinaltap
29th Sep 2011, 00:13
@gyron: Awesome post. I really enjoyed the videos and agree this sort of playthrough would require an immense amount of timing and patience. Definitely intrigued.

@Spinaltap: ZTG = Zero Takedown Ghost, a reference to my playthrough cited in the first post (thanks gyron). Fatal headshots = ensuring you're getting the maximum XP from the XP bonus provided when you headshot someone... which is one of the few ways to earn XP at the start of the game since you can't knock anyone out with your fists yet.

Not quite sure what they mean by metagaming... though presumably they mean since you are focused on getting double-takedown as soon as possible, you must forgo increasing your security hack skills, which lets you earn a ton of XP through hacking the Sarif offices.

Ah. I completed the factory part but once I let zeke sanders go I have enough for the reflex booster aug. Yet when I backtrack so I can then use it on all the mobs I sneaked by they're all gone and replaced by police. I don't understand how it was possible in that one video with the crate unless there is a patch that adds more xp at the start or something.

Kiyanavasala
29th Sep 2011, 00:14
is there a video of this? I don't understand what half this stuff means. "fatal headshots in prologe, metagaming in Sarif HQ, ZTG"

Ah, sorry.

During the pre-augmentation tutorial, even though you don't have a UI to tell you when you gain experience, the enemies you kill still grant you experience. Though you can't get Ghost or Smooth Operator during that section, you can still get the basic 10 XP for a kill and the bonus 10 XP for a headshot.

By "metagaming in Sarif HQ", I was referring to using codes you won't get until you return from the Factory mission in order to acquire additional XP from exploration and the like before the mission.

And ZTG stands for Zero Takedown Ghost--effectively the Thief approach of not being seen or detected in any way, and leaving as little evidence of your presence on the environment as possible. By using a ZTG approach in the Factory, a player can acquire XP from Ghost and Getting Things Done as well as exploration to minimise the number of enemies they need to deal with in order to acquire the second Praxis Point required to get the Double Takedown augmentation.

And sadly, no, I don't have a video.

gyron
29th Sep 2011, 01:46
Nah. That's not challenging. Just long. You just have to be patient/exploit the AI.

You want a real challenge? Stealth speed runs.


Well, patience and understanding AI are what 'stealth skill' is all about. If you think that's not challenging, try ghosting Penthouse or Picus in one go with at least single take-downs.

As for stealth speed run (+no-items +no-augs run), I've done it already:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=121029



Can you do that throughout the whole game or do you have to have some kind of weapons?
It's possible to get throughout the whole game knocking out everybody with non-lethal melee take-downs only. On All-augs run I did just that, with 95% of them being double take-downs. I've had weapons too, but never needed them, they were there just for venting my frustration after 20th reload :)


One method not mentioned: lure them with hits from silenced weapons :cool:. If you fire with a silenced weapon, they go investigate the place where you hit. If you hit another one nearby, they'll go investigating that too. In my first walktrough, I actually fired my weapon with purpose of luring guards more, than to kill :) . Its very funny -- I control enemy soldiers with my weapon like with remote :). Once you master your art of controlling enemy mind and movements, Double Takedown Ghost is easy :).
Oh, I've made the video for this method, but forgot to add it. Fixed.
JOXN4IqfyVE


To be able to get the Ghost, you may not make the enemies hostile, correct?
And alarmed is still unnoticed when wanting the sneaky part, right?
Correct when we are talking about them seeing Jensen. IF enemies spot their knocked-out friend or see a bot explode they will still show 'ALERTED' on the radar -- but the 'Ghost' will be ruined.


Ah. I completed the factory part but once I let zeke sanders go I have enough for the reflex booster aug. Yet when I backtrack so I can then use it on all the mobs I sneaked by they're all gone and replaced by police. I don't understand how it was possible in that one video with the crate unless there is a patch that adds more xp at the start or something.
Check this post by Nakorson (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1688780&postcount=74), he pointed out all possible XP rewards in Sarif's plant. You can get 2nd Praxis with only 6 enemies took down.

gyron
29th Sep 2011, 10:30
Here is the Picus mission (from the beginning of the ambush to using the funicular) finished 'ultimate'-style. I didn't pick up any items, explore or hack anything beside security, unlike I did on the 'maximalist' run, since I've wanted these videos to be focused on Ghost/DT tactics. When I've played normally upper Picus took me two hours to finish, though I was using quicksaves and played at a slower pace. Just to make these three 5-minutes-long videos without mistakes and needless waiting I had to spend 4 hours with 75 tries. Considering how long it takes to do this kind of run perfectly in one go, I probably won't be adding other, simpler levels -- this beast and the TYM Penthouse are enough. I'm sure you get the picture.


Picus, part 1:
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Picus, part 2:
KMeVJ0_aRXU


Picus, part 3:
rAf2SN8fyVg

jeyeichkey
30th Sep 2011, 06:05
This could be made into a geeky movie about stealth. Never get tired to watch it *big grin*

IdiotInAJeep
30th Sep 2011, 06:40
I might do a lethal takedown and crossbow stealth playthrough once they release the DLC. These distraction techniques would be pretty damn handy for lining up shots.

Viacom
30th Sep 2011, 15:07
Amazing guide, anyone who does this is sure to max out their XP/Augmentations.

jeyeichkey
30th Sep 2011, 19:01
@Viacom,

Nah, that's not important. What's important is that you max out in awesomeness. :^D

Locutus of BORG
30th Sep 2011, 23:50
The shenanigans, hijinx and hilarity are what makes this challenge (and those ppl who complete it) awesome

jeyeichkey
1st Oct 2011, 17:20
@gyron
One thing I was thinking about. How did you deal with the Malik-thing?

gyron
2nd Oct 2011, 18:09
Thanks everyone for the feedback, I'm glad you've enjoyed the videos :)


Nah, that's not important. What's important is that you max out in awesomeness. :^D
+1, man :) I'm sure as hell wouldn't be bothering with all this stuff if it wasn't so fun to do.

I mean look at the numbers: there are 360 enemies in the game and 300 of them can be tricked into double take-downs. 300/2=150 DTs, 150x25XP=3750XP bonus TOTAL for going the extra mile with double instead of single take-downs. Meager 3750XP is a very little contribution (~1,5%) to the XP required to get all augs (235000XP). Nice looking aug screen alone can't justify all this trouble.


@gyron
One thing I was thinking about. How did you deal with the Malik-thing?

Being the cold-hearted calculating bastard (on maximalist play-through at least), I've left her to die, run with the cloak on to the elevator, used it, got my Ghost, then immediately returned back to the yard and dispatched all 10 soldiers in peace: 8 in pairs with DTs, 2 with single take-downs. The best I could get (after numerous reloads) while saving Malik was 1 DT, 8 single TD and no Ghost.

Not saving Malik also has benefits later: she will not come to "help" you in the Singapore hangar, leaving 6 crazed spec ops for you to deal with (3x125XP=375XP). While if you save her all you get is 'Spy Boy'...

So she had to be sacrificed on the XP altar :(

gyron
2nd Oct 2011, 19:15
Damn, forgot to add another simple trick. Pretty sure I've got all of the methods now.

Provoke a guard to move to your position by trespassing a secure zone (*).
Simple and safe method for setting up DTs, but useful only in a handful of places, where enemies are normally friendly, but issue a warning when you go inside a secure zone then turn hostile if you don't move away. Examples: DRB's territory entrance, MCB's apartment, Belltower blockades in Hensha.

cq9rkQ51cdw

jeyeichkey
2nd Oct 2011, 20:24
@gyron
I was wondering, as someone was asking before, how did you manage to get the necessary praxis point for being able to DT the guys in Sarif Industries, first mission? I might be blind, I'm sure you posted it somewhere, links to someone mentioning XP-gatherings. But my search-fu seems low :^(


I have started to try the take down-method. Sure is difficult by timing and tricking guards to come my way.

auric
2nd Oct 2011, 20:59
I wonder how many energy bars are there total in the game. :)

gyron
2nd Oct 2011, 21:14
@gyron
I was wondering, as someone was asking before, how did you manage to get the necessary praxis point for being able to DT the guys in Sarif Industries, first mission? I might be blind, I'm sure you posted it somewhere, links to someone mentioning XP-gatherings. But my search-fu seems low :^(


It was discussed in a great detail in "The 'All Aug' challenge" thread:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=121864
Look for Jibbajabba's and Nakorson's posts on pages 2-3.



I have started to try the take down-method. Sure is difficult by timing and tricking guards to come my way.

Good luck! May the Holy Quicksave be with you!

Seriously though don't expect to achieve the perfect results from the get-go. It took me a lot of practice to start doing this stuff consistently. I've finished the DXHR Beta five times when it came out. Then I've finished the full game four times in different styles, before trying my hand at Ghost/DT run. And even then I didn't fully get the hold of AI before I've tried do all-DT Ghost in the Penthouse -- which took me 20 reloads, I think.



I wonder how many energy bars are there total in the game. :)
If you mean energy consumables, then something like 70-80 energy cells total.

auric
2nd Oct 2011, 21:22
How many enemies are there? lol

less then the bars or just enough for each or more than u can eat. :D

gyron
2nd Oct 2011, 21:39
There are 355 (+/-5) enemies with 300 of them being available for double take-downs (=150 DTs).
You don't need to eat candy except for hard situations like the Penthouse or Upper Picus. If you take your time in most cases one cell is enough.

There is too much candy in the game, actually. On this Ghost/DT-only run I've played melee-only, knocked out every hostile and still had 46 unused cells at the end:
http://s1.postimage.org/q0l9z21p7/DXHR_DTG_Inventory_End.jpg

jeyeichkey
3rd Oct 2011, 03:09
The PEPS has a stun effect, does it not? Have only tried it a couple of times. During those times my enemies didn't die. Maybe for the bots? (My screen is impossible to read on so the weapon description is somewhat a mystery to me.)

@gyron
trying to lure some enemies proved difficult since they seemed to stupied to understand to go look for the thrown box. I'm thinking about the two guys by the first camera(s). One guy is looking at the TV, the other is facing the door, and there is a camera down the hallway.
I solved it like this;
went down to open the door, trying to time the camera right. Got the alarmed response from the guard. Went to cover and threw a box in his general direction, waiting to take him out. This went well most of the times just going for the guard, but the camera often saw me and sounded the alarm. Then I got lucky, my animation actually did the takedown behind the cover mostly and camera saw nothing. Huzzah!

Now that I think about it it might have been possible to take down the guys when they were in the room, entering from the other door, since they were facing different locations. Oh well. Try and try again, ey? :^)

gyron
3rd Oct 2011, 05:15
The PEPS has a stun effect, does it not? Have only tried it a couple of times. During those times my enemies didn't die. Maybe for the bots? (My screen is impossible to read on so the weapon description is somewhat a mystery to me.)
Yes, PEPS has stun effect (Man Down(10) + Merciful Soul(20) = 30XP) but it's very unpredictable: sometimes it has the same effect as concussion grenade and sometimes it knocks people out. If only it didn't have this effect it would be very useful for bringing a packs of enemies close enough together for the DT (another method btw).



trying to lure some enemies proved difficult since they seemed to stupied to understand to go look for the thrown box. I'm thinking about the two guys by the first camera(s). One guy is looking at the TV, the other is facing the door, and there is a camera down the hallway. ...
Those two seem to be a recurring problem. I've given my solution here:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1689163&postcount=83

auric
3rd Oct 2011, 10:58
Yes, PEPS has stun effect (Man Down(10) + Merciful Soul(20) = 30XP) but it's very unpredictable: sometimes it has the same effect as concussion grenade and sometimes it knocks people out. If only it didn't have this effect it would be very useful for bringing a packs of enemies close enough together for the DT (another method btw).

Try shooting near them, not at them. Probably won't KO them.

jeyeichkey
3rd Oct 2011, 20:20
@gyron
Now I understand why you can do DT so early on. You got your DXHR upgraded. Ain't I right?

auric
3rd Oct 2011, 20:24
@gyron
Now I understand why you can do DT so early on. You got your DXHR upgraded. Ain't I right?

what do u mean? :)

gyron
3rd Oct 2011, 20:43
@gyron
Now I understand why you can do DT so early on. You got your DXHR upgraded. Ain't I right?

No, 'Augmented Edition' doesn't give any XP benefits at the beginning. All it has is weapons + aud + 10.000 credits.
The "Tong's Rescue" mission, however, later gives bonus ~3000 XP for completion. So I have a little bit of an advantage in max XP over normal edition.

Again, if you have troubles getting the second praxis early -- read the 'All Aug' thread.

jeyeichkey
3rd Oct 2011, 20:49
@gyron
This is not my day.. of course you have said it. I'm not just paying any attention *low spirit*
As about everything else this day. Oh well, it's monday..

gyron
4th Oct 2011, 19:51
To counterweight the slow and long videos I've mostly posted in this thread, here is the TYM Penthouse ambush resolved in less than a minute -- with 5 double take-downs and a nice Ghost bonus in the end. Minimum waiting, maximum ass-kicking:
oaVaT-SO_cw

Jibbajabba
4th Oct 2011, 20:04
To counterweight the slow and long videos I've mostly posted in this thread, here is the TYM Penthouse ambush resolved in less than a minute -- with 5 double take-downs and a nice Ghost bonus in the end. Minimum waiting, maximum ass-kicking:
oaVaT-SO_cw

Sweet lol

auric
4th Oct 2011, 20:26
Awesome, nice view of the circle, lol

guess someone can just run pass them right beside them & they won't notice.
:D

Kiyanavasala
4th Oct 2011, 22:37
Bloody hell. That was awesome.

Locutus of BORG
5th Oct 2011, 00:13
Who says candy bars (or jars of funny smelling goo) are bad for you??

jeyeichkey
5th Oct 2011, 03:08
*heh* I always thought that ring was for the typhoon, guess one can use it in other purposes too. :^)
Interesting how the icarus made people fall down. Never noticed.

jeyeichkey
5th Oct 2011, 10:37
I'm trying hard to go stealth and manage to get enough praxis points so that I can take DT at the first mission at Sarifs industries.. but proved to be vexing and tricky.. I managed to et 4830 XP points, with 70 points left for next praxis after doing;

Gyrons advice about office 27
Meeting Pritchard
Reading all necessary books, 3 of them.
Entering through the roof as Pritchard says.
Taking down every single enemy with stealth melee only, making them alarmed twice, but no hostile.
Even the turret stays silent, since I blocked it's line of sight.
Saving hostiles.
Hacking every computer.
Finding every vent.


I didn't see that I got any Ghost points, how that works I'm not sure..
Still not able to get the DT that I'm aiming for.

*sob sob* DXHR is mean to me..

;^)

auric
5th Oct 2011, 10:59
Saving Hostiles? lol ;)

crawl in every vent for traveller xp.

when u melee takedown u r KO them right? not kill. :)

Hack every pc, get every cube for any xp bonus.

jeyeichkey
5th Oct 2011, 11:16
@auric

Done, done and done. Only KO, no killing at all. Use PS3, but that shouldn't be a problem right?

auric
5th Oct 2011, 11:18
@auric
Use PS3, but that shouldn't be a problem right?

Huh?
r u referring to the part I say hack every pc?
If yes, I'm talking about the pcs in the game (which u can hack),

not what u use to play the game & hack it to enable u to get xp.

Jibbajabba
5th Oct 2011, 11:43
I'm trying hard to go stealth and manage to get enough praxis points so that I can take DT at the first mission at Sarifs industries.. but proved to be vexing and tricky.. I managed to et 4830 XP points, with 70 points left for next praxis after doing;

Gyrons advice about office 27
Meeting Pritchard
Reading all necessary books, 3 of them.
Entering through the roof as Pritchard says.
Taking down every single enemy with stealth melee only, making them alarmed twice, but no hostile.
Even the turret stays silent, since I blocked it's line of sight.
Saving hostiles.
Hacking every computer.
Finding every vent.


I didn't see that I got any Ghost points, how that works I'm not sure..
Still not able to get the DT that I'm aiming for.

*sob sob* DXHR is mean to me..

;^)

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1688780&postcount=74

jeyeichkey
5th Oct 2011, 11:44
@auric
No, more that I play through PS3 and not a computer. Hacking the terminals was no problems. They are always the first things to do after enemy takedown. The odd thing, since I have been reading peoples posts from "the All Aug challenge" the only thing that does not come up for me is Ghost. Never seen that kind of achievement completed.. Is there a patch I'm just not having or is it the difference between computer and PS3? The latter, it just can't be. That would only be strange..

@Jibbajabba
Yes, that's the one I have been following closely. And one of Gyrons tips that gave me additional 500xp. Still not enough for DT at first mission. Although, when I came back, after the LIMB clinic, I had 5 praxis kit to spend..

Kiyanavasala
5th Oct 2011, 11:51
There was a topic round here where console users mentioned they couldn't get Ghost bonuses after they got the achievement.

jeyeichkey
5th Oct 2011, 12:01
@Kiyanavasala
What do you mean with achievement?
(I searched "console ghost" but the thread seems to have expired.)

gyron
5th Oct 2011, 12:09
He means that after you get you first 'Ghost' bonus and consequently your 'Ghost' achievement, you can't get Ghost bonuses anymore after that. This happens both on consoles and patched PC versions.

So if you're on PS3 your Ghost run is most likely f**ked :(

jeyeichkey
5th Oct 2011, 12:15
Can't really say I understood that logic.. Strange and sad. When I really wanted to go for a ghost run.. now it seems I'll never be able to do that..

Oh well, thanks for clearing that up for me guys. I'll go and have myself some apple pie and sulking in the kitchen for a while..

Jibbajabba
5th Oct 2011, 18:02
He means that after you get you first 'Ghost' bonus and consequently your 'Ghost' achievement, you can't get Ghost bonuses anymore after that. This happens both on consoles and patched PC versions.

So if you're on PS3 your Ghost run is most likely f**ked :(

Not true. Works fine on PS3

jeyeichkey
5th Oct 2011, 20:02
@Jibbajabba

Light in the tunnel? What do you think could be the trouble? Might I need to be online during game play to make ghost work? Download patch? Every hint will be much obliged. :^)


@gyron
Btw, when's the next stealth video? :^D_

gyron
5th Oct 2011, 20:36
@Jibbajabba

Light in the tunnel? What do you think could be the trouble? Might I need to be online during game play to make ghost work? Download patch? Every hint will be much obliged. :^)
I have no idea how PS3 works but I've seen this advice concerning your issue:
"For affected Console users, creating a new profile for each playthrough seems to be the way to go."
Makes sense?


@gyron
Btw, when's the next stealth video? :^D_
What would you suggest?
I've finished the only two challenging levels in the game (Picus and Penthouse) perfectly. And I think I've covered every possible angle with my tactics videos. There is nothing left for me to do in DXHR, really.
The only mission I can think of that would give people troubles with Ghost/DT is Sarif's Plant... But its proper video walkthrough will be ~50 minutes long and rather boring -- so I'll pass on it.

I will do something like full Ghost/DT play-through for Missing Link when it will come out.

jeyeichkey
5th Oct 2011, 20:51
@gyron
I'm simple minded when it comes to takedowns like this. I could probably watch the entire DXHR as one long stealth takedown movie without getting tired of it.
But of course, what you have done have been quite enough and people tend to have other things to do in life, so I don't blame you. Nice work you did there. *Thumbs up*

And about the creating new profile thing. Not really. Have to check it properly I suppose.

collegebored
12th Oct 2011, 05:47
It was discussed in a great detail in "The 'All Aug' challenge" thread:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=121864
Look for Jibbajabba's and Nakorson's posts on pages 2-3.




the thread seems to be deleted or broken. im also curious how you got 10K exp by the time of the first mission. mind explaining?

a little off topic, whats the max XP you can squeeze out of prologue mission without trashing Pacifist? i played it twice: headshoting everyone which netted 180xp total and using gas canisters to knock everyone out which netted 0xp. its that last part that confuses me..

auric
12th Oct 2011, 05:54
the thread seems to be deleted or broken. im also curious how you got 10K exp by the time of the first mission. mind explaining?

a little off topic, whats the max XP you can squeeze out of prologue mission without trashing Pacifist? i played it twice: headshoting everyone which netted 180xp total and using gas canisters to knock everyone out which netted 0xp. its that last part that confuses me..

Vents
KOs
Hostage
Ghosts

also, get exp from sarif industries before the mission. :)

that's what I can think of only.

jeyeichkey
12th Oct 2011, 07:21
@collegebored, auric
And! recieve points for ghost run. If the system works as it should that would be no problem at all. If achievements/trophies takes place, they fick the xp all up.

(Mmm.. a little bitter about this fact. Will take long before I'll let it go. ) ;^)

auric
12th Oct 2011, 07:49
& hacking :D

collegebored
12th Oct 2011, 08:35
i guess i didnt clarify what im trying to do. im trying to get enough XP to get double takedown, then go back to the start of first mission and clear out every guy using DTs. im under impression thats possible but the thread that supposed to confirm it (All Aug challenge) doesnt exist anymore.

i sneaked all the way to zeke's room exploring everything, hacking what i can (cant do the biggest room coz of 4 guys walking around), getting every ghost possible and im still about 1700 exp short. if i go in and deal with zeke, i get the necessary XP but all the guys get replaced by swat so theres nothing to go back for.

theres gotta be something fundamental im missing either in prologue, during 15min at headquarters or in the first mission that would net me ~1500 xp, but i cant figure out what..

auric
12th Oct 2011, 08:38
Couple of hundred can be gotten at Sarif HQ before the mission from traveller xp points through vents

probably have to KO a few singles.

jeyeichkey
12th Oct 2011, 08:48
@collegebored
I don't remember exactly how much I recieved, but I managed to do one double takedown. I got XP from:
Going into room 27 (? the room on the far right) at Sarif HQ, punched in the code 4145 went through the vent, read the book in the other room, went to Pritchard, read the book in his room, went to the helipad, but before helipad went into another vent at the lower base and then I just collected points from takedowns, ghost run (once! Since *grr* achievements ficks it all up) and goes through necessary vents and rescues the hostages etc..

Someone else might give you a better description. Just some short points.

collegebored
12th Oct 2011, 09:07
@collegebored
I don't remember exactly how much I recieved, but I managed to do one double takedown. I got XP from:
Going into room 27 (? the room on the far right) at Sarif HQ, punched in the code 4145 went through the vent, read the book in the other room, went to Pritchard, read the book in his room, went to the helipad, but before helipad went into another vent at the lower base and then I just collected points from takedowns, ghost run (once! Since *grr* achievements ficks it all up) and goes through necessary vents and rescues the hostages etc..

Someone else might give you a better description. Just some short points.

yep done all that except i decided against using a code for a door, seemed a little like cheating ^^.
i keep reading about the ghost achievement bug, maybe thats what screwing me over. how does the bug work, does it still display that you got ghost but u dont get XP? the log definitely said i got ghost for each part, but i didnt actually check how much my XP total changed.

Kiyanavasala
12th Oct 2011, 09:11
If memory serves, I managed eight DTs and this was before I knew about the 180 from the prologue.

jeyeichkey
12th Oct 2011, 09:16
@collegebored
Then it's probably the achievement problem some have experienced. It seems to be a problem when people want to make DT's early in the game. That, and to become more stealthy early in the game.
I made a thread about it in the Technical Forum; http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=122703
But no conclusion yet so far..

auric
12th Oct 2011, 09:16
yep done all that except i decided against using a code for a door, seemed a little like cheating ^^.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts7ALZjg3dc
00:27

this video I don't upgrade augs, so it'll show what doors can be open without hacking.
U can find EBooks & vents in the rooms for some extra xp.
:)

Locutus of BORG
12th Oct 2011, 15:45
He means that after you get you first 'Ghost' bonus and consequently your 'Ghost' achievement, you can't get Ghost bonuses anymore after that. This happens both on consoles and patched PC versions.

So if you're on PS3 your Ghost run is most likely f**ked :(


Can't really say I understood that logic.. Strange and sad. When I really wanted to go for a ghost run.. now it seems I'll never be able to do that..

Oh well, thanks for clearing that up for me guys. I'll go and have myself some apple pie and sulking in the kitchen for a while..

Yeah, I only started noticing that now... but if it's any consolation, you at least have the knowledge that you can and have ghosted through places, even when the game stops recognizing you for it. :hmm:

Subsequent Ghost runs aren't totally 'f***ed", the game just stops awarding you for it... :mad2:



i guess i didnt clarify what im trying to do. im trying to get enough XP to get double takedown, then go back to the start of first mission and clear out every guy using DTs. im under impression thats possible but the thread that supposed to confirm it (All Aug challenge) doesnt exist anymore.

i sneaked all the way to zeke's room exploring everything, hacking what i can (cant do the biggest room coz of 4 guys walking around), getting every ghost possible and im still about 1700 exp short. if i go in and deal with zeke, i get the necessary XP but all the guys get replaced by swat so theres nothing to go back for.

theres gotta be something fundamental im missing either in prologue, during 15min at headquarters or in the first mission that would net me ~1500 xp, but i cant figure out what..
The link to that thread isn't working for me either...

From what I remember, to get full exp, and be able to DT early, you have to headshot every guy in the prologue, then quickly sneak / hack the accessible parts of Sarif HQ, before you do the Milwaukee mission... So it's not really compatible with Pacifist, and will be harder to pull off after your initial Ghost runs.

jeyeichkey
12th Oct 2011, 16:40
@Locutus of BORG
But that's not the same.. That is called imagination come through by pills. When I play a game all that should already be in the game so that I don't need to intake anything else than graphics, game story and the pure awesomeness of the game.

Kiyanavasala
12th Oct 2011, 18:03
Yeah, I only started noticing that now... but if it's any consolation, you at least have the knowledge that you can and have ghosted through places, even when the game stops recognizing you for it. :hmm:

Subsequent Ghost runs aren't totally 'f***ed", the game just stops awarding you for it... :mad2:



The link to that thread isn't working for me either...

From what I remember, to get full exp, and be able to DT early, you have to headshot every guy in the prologue, then quickly sneak / hack the accessible parts of Sarif HQ, before you do the Milwaukee mission... So it's not really compatible with Pacifist, and will be harder to pull off after your initial Ghost runs.

No. I managed to get some DTs in the Factory mission without touching a single enemy in the prologue. I also didn't do anything in Sarif HQ except the one exploration bonus and single book available without metagame knowledge. I can't remember how many enemies I took down with single takedowns before I unlocked the Reflex Booster, but it definitely required getting the two pre-Zeke Ghost bonuses.

gyron
13th Oct 2011, 15:38
That's strange, All aug thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=121864) has indeed disappeared.

Not a problem, there is a wiki page that should answer all your questions, guys :)
http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_by_area_(DX3)

It's very easy to find out how much XP you'll get with any kind of strategy using this page. For example:

No. I managed to get some DTs in the Factory mission without touching a single enemy in the prologue. I also didn't do anything in Sarif HQ except the one exploration bonus and single book available without metagame knowledge. I can't remember how many enemies I took down with single takedowns before I unlocked the Reflex Booster, but it definitely required getting the two pre-Zeke Ghost bonuses.
You'll have: 700 XP from Sarif HQ + 8325 XP from Sarif Plant = 9025 XP from non-combat rewards. +45 XP from the turret = 9070. So you'll need to do at least 19 single take-downs (19*50=950) to get 2nd praxis and the Reflex Booster. That leaves 32-19=13 enemies for DTD -- so you can do just 6 DTD without killing in the Intro and metagaming.

Locutus of BORG
13th Oct 2011, 17:31
That's strange, All aug thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=121864) has indeed disappeared.

Not a problem, there is a wiki page that should answer all your questions, guys :)
http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_by_area_(DX3)


That's great to know. Good to see the wiki filling up with useful info.

Now to uncover the true conspiracy, starting with why the All Aug thread is gone!

collegebored
14th Oct 2011, 15:14
That's strange, All aug thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=121864) has indeed disappeared.

Not a problem, there is a wiki page that should answer all your questions, guys :)
http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_by_area_(DX3)

It's very easy to find out how much XP you'll get with any kind of strategy using this page. For example:

You'll have: 700 XP from Sarif HQ + 8325 XP from Sarif Plant = 9025 XP from non-combat rewards. +45 XP from the turret = 9070. So you'll need to do at least 19 single take-downs (19*50=950) to get 2nd praxis and the Reflex Booster. That leaves 32-19=13 enemies for DTD -- so you can do just 6 DTD without killing in the Intro and metagaming.

nice, that page didnt exist during my first 2 playthroughs. how do you guys get the turret, its broken when u get there? or do they fix it eventually, i never bothered waiting and just dispatched the two guys next to it.

i kinda gave up on setting up DTs and only doing those that happen to be easy. been trying to do full aug run without any metagaming or AI abuse (lets be honest, moving vending machines around a police station would get you shot IRL ^^, or planning for DT setups during picus mission kinda goes against the definition of an ambush)

btw, can anyone say for sure if EMPing a robot automatically trashes ghost or only if a human is around to see the grenade or the explosion? i know you can kill robots after every other mob is down without losing ghost, but I cant save malik without killing the robot (it arrives too early on hardest) and every time i throw the grenade it kills my ghost.

Locutus of BORG
14th Oct 2011, 16:02
^I think the page is relatively new. For a while after the game was release, the wiki had nearly nothing useful in it pertaining to DXHR. Good to see new content being added more steadily.

gyron
15th Oct 2011, 17:08
Get computer locked without losing Ghost (Belltower's Port).

The problem here is that if I simply knock out the guy sitting in front of the computer I wouldn't be able to hack it. And if I hurt him first to lock the computer, like in the Pacifist Hacker video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5kBq1tJT_k), entire base will go on alert and I'll lose Ghost/SO. So here is a video showing how to get the best of all options: Computer Hack + Ghost + DTD:

eqSWL4IDjgE

auric
15th Oct 2011, 17:10
I dun understand, why KO that guy mean u can't hack?

gyron
15th Oct 2011, 17:16
Because that's how AI works.
It makes sense:
1) if you knock out a guy working on a computer, it will be unhackable (since you took him by surprise he didn't have a chance to lock it),
2) if you hurt him first, he will go 'hostile' and game assumes that he has enough time to lock his computer.

gyron
15th Oct 2011, 17:25
Human Shield
Another trick. A combination of "peeking from cover" method + the fact that human bodies are opaque to AI's vision:

UW8Qn5VuCCo

jeyeichkey
15th Oct 2011, 19:06
Aaah gyron. I have been missing your videos :^)
It's nice that you shared some more from your ultimate sneak. Even if I can't get the points for it, I'll always like the sneaking part the most. Thanks mate.

gyron
15th Oct 2011, 20:14
So you haven't found a solution to your problem yet? I heard that consoles are slow when it comes to patches but this bug is like a month old already. On PC it's easily fixable -- you can buy it from steam just for the Ghost run, if you want.

jeyeichkey
15th Oct 2011, 20:54
Well.. Here is the deal gyron. I'm a Mac user... Good thing is, they are talking about making DX:HR for Mac too... But still, buying the game a seond time just to be able to get the XP.. I'm not -that- rich and crazy. ;^)

Locutus of BORG
15th Oct 2011, 23:21
Because that's how AI works.
It makes sense:
1) if you knock out a guy working on a computer, it will be unhackable (since you took him by surprise he didn't have a chance to lock it),
2) if you hurt him first, he will go 'hostile' and game assumes that he has enough time to lock his computer.
You sure that's not a situationtional thing? I'm sure I remember knocking ppl out to use their comps in Detroit and Hengsha w/o any problems.

gyron
16th Oct 2011, 00:20
I'm sure I remember knocking ppl out to use their comps in Detroit and Hengsha w/o any problems.

If you're talking about computer that is already locked (green or orange screen with lock icon) and someone is sitting in front of it then you don't need to knock anyone out to hack it. When computer screen looks like this (black -- meaning it's in use):
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110909000804/deusex/en/images/thumb/3/37/Hengsha-dock_sneak.jpg/600px-Hengsha-dock_sneak.jpg
then knocking the user out from behind will leave computer unlocked. The only way to turn it hackable is make its user hostile first. But you're correct that it is situational -- this works only in Police station and in Belltower's port.

collegebored
16th Oct 2011, 03:52
Get computer locked without losing Ghost (Belltower's Port).

The problem here is that if I simply knock out the guy sitting in front of the computer I wouldn't be able to hack it. And if I hurt him first to lock the computer, like in the Pacifist Hacker video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5kBq1tJT_k), entire base will go on alert and I'll lose Ghost/SO. So here is a video showing how to get the best of all options: Computer Hack + Ghost + DTD:

eqSWL4IDjgE

u shot your pistol and turned them hostile, howd you still get ghost?

gyron
16th Oct 2011, 19:53
Because I had cloak turned on and because Ghost has nothing to do with enemies being hostile.
There are 3 main conditions for it:
1) Enemy must not see you for more than a second.
2) Enemy must not see you bump into things (if you have the cloak on).
3) Enemy must not find a dead/unconscious body.

Enemy being hurt or hearing shooting noises don't affect Ghost.

drunkrussian9
16th Oct 2011, 20:14
3) Enemy must not find a dead/unconscious body.

WUT
Simply not true. I had gotten ghost before with enemies finding bodies. It has to do with them seeing you/turning hostile only.

gyron
16th Oct 2011, 20:34
I had gotten ghost before with enemies finding bodies.
You hadn't. It's very easy to check: at the start of Sarif Plant knock out the first guard and drag his body so others may see him, then enter the plant through the vent on roof -- no Ghost will not be awarded.


It has to do with them seeing you/turning hostile only.
Well, I see you didn't test it properly. All 3 rules I've posted above are true.

EDIT: If you meant that there are enemies who CAN find bodies in one location and you get Ghost in a completely unrelated location later -- well, duh. The script that checks for Ghost takes into account only the enemies that are assigned to specific area. For example, if you start a shoot-out outside DRB entrance (Detroit area), but sneak inside (DRB territory area) you can still get Ghost. It happens because DRB entrance is a different zone and it's not governed by Ghost script from DRB territory that runs after you disable the antenna.

Aroven
17th Oct 2011, 12:02
Hey Gyron, having managed my first run through only using stealth non-lethal TDs I've been inspired by this challenge but seem to have fallen at the first hurdle! Namely that I'm in Sarif Plant, got the Reflex Booster, went back and have taken out all that I can, but the guys in storage rooms won't come out of their rooms, and guys in the labs won't go into them either.

You mentioned some "mind-bending tricks" to get them to cross these invisible borders, care to share them? Hopefully I'm not the only one who can't seem to manage!

auric
17th Oct 2011, 12:36
Hey Gyron, having managed my first run through only using stealth non-lethal TDs I've been inspired by this challenge but seem to have fallen at the first hurdle! Namely that I'm in Sarif Plant, got the Reflex Booster, went back and have taken out all that I can, but the guys in storage rooms won't come out of their rooms, and guys in the labs won't go into them either.

You mentioned some "mind-bending tricks" to get them to cross these invisible borders, care to share them? Hopefully I'm not the only one who can't seem to manage!

The key is to jump. :D
seriously :)

jump / shoot / throw something (box) to get their attention enough to make them move towards the sound but not too much that they go to hostile mode.

Actually going hostile is fine, so long as they don't see you (i think)

collegebored
17th Oct 2011, 13:44
Because I had cloak turned on and because Ghost has nothing to do with enemies being hostile.
There are 3 main conditions for it:
1) Enemy must not see you for more than a second.
2) Enemy must not see you bump into things (if you have the cloak on).
3) Enemy must not find a dead/unconscious body.

Enemy being hurt or hearing shooting noises don't affect Ghost.

hm, gonna have to try it. i thought hostile (especially through shooting them) automatically lost ghost since they know you are there even if they didnt see you (same principle as finding a body). thanks.

btw if you're ever bored id love to see more DT playthroughs. i enjoyed picus and tai yong medical like a movie ^^.

RealSamFisher
17th Oct 2011, 14:52
Are you able to go through the whole game with the rules gyron listed on the first page without doing any distractions? Because I am not sure if everything is passable without the silent step aug or the cloak. I would like to do a full Stealth Walkthrough of Deus Ex. Use only as much items and augs I need to go through the game.

Aroven
17th Oct 2011, 17:57
The key is to jump. :D
seriously :)

jump / shoot / throw something (box) to get their attention enough to make them move towards the sound but not too much that they go to hostile mode.

Actually going hostile is fine, so long as they don't see you (i think)
Tried throwing things, maybe just not trying hard enough - taking the second lab room and the small storage room for example, threw a box at the door of the room, guard in the lab goes to investigate. Great, but I tried taking this further and he absolutely refuses to cross through the doorway so all I can assume is there's a way of getting the guy in the room to also come to the doorway but for the life of me I can't figure it out because nothing short of gunfire or throwing a box to hit him makes him look up. I'm starting to wonder if there's porn hidden in there or something...

jeyeichkey
17th Oct 2011, 19:14
@Aroven
To build a "track" with boxes and other stuffs also works fine. Make the guy move towards the other by a silenced gun or something and then close the way up behind him. Will make him walk a new path. It's issues in at least two of gyrons videos. The "
Re-route enemies by blocking their normal patrol paths (***). " and "Picus, part 2:" for example on first page of this thread.

gyron
17th Oct 2011, 20:18
hm, gonna have to try it. i thought hostile (especially through shooting them) automatically lost ghost since they know you are there even if they didnt see you (same principle as finding a body). thanks.

btw if you're ever bored id love to see more DT playthroughs. i enjoyed picus and tai yong medical like a movie ^^.
These videos are so fast and smooth because that's how you play on a 50th take :nut: Normally I play in the exact opposite style, actually: very slow, on a single rechargeable cell, without relying on luck too much, etc. You'll be bored with my full play-through, believe me.


Are you able to go through the whole game with the rules gyron listed on the first page without doing any distractions?
Not on this run, no. There are ~50 DTD's out of 166 that can be done without making anyone alert using invisibility and rerouting. But most of the enemies stand still or too far away from each other for "no-alert" DTD. Some DTD's are impossible to do without some sort of distraction (like when one of the guards is sitting on a chair). Cloak/silent running are not a requisite -- they just save time. On my last run I tried to rely on augs as little as I could and did most of the DTD on a single cell, I've had a need for a second cell (for augs) in 30 or so DTD's. If you go with single take-downs I think you could do them all on one cell.

If you're looking for "perfect ghost" play-through without cloak, see GreasedScotsman's "Zero Takedown Ghost" (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=120522). No-items, no-augs run was discussed here: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=1690407


@Aroven
To build a "track" with boxes and other stuffs also works fine. Make the guy move towards the other by a silenced gun or something and then close the way up behind him. Will make him walk a new path. It's issues in at least two of gyrons videos. The "Re-route enemies by blocking their normal patrol paths (***). " and "Picus, part 2:" for example on first page of this thread.
Nice thinking, that's how I did some of this hard DTD with enemies from different zones. It won't work everywhere though, because you'll need a silenced weapon (no such thing in Sarif's plant) and, most likely, an invisibility aug. There is a more universally applicable method (see the videos below).

gyron
17th Oct 2011, 20:32
Double take-down in a buffer zone (****)

Here is the toughest challenge of Ghost + Double Take-down-only run.
Sometimes there is an odd number of enemies in a room. You knock every pair out, but have one leftover -- no problem, you think, there is a lone guard patrolling nearby. You try to trick him into DTD, but no matter what you do (jump, shoot, let him see you), this stupid punk just won't go out of his favorite room or corridor as if blocked by an invisible wall -- it means that he came to the border of his assigned "zone" and there is simply no possibility of making him leave it.

Still, there is a way to perform a DTD in this situation -- it's nothing new, really -- just a combination of Noise Luring and Crate Blocking methods (with lots and lots of quick-loading). All you have to do is bring two enemies to a "buffer zone" (the border between zones they are assigned to) and stop them from moving away.

Hard cases first:

CgyVQVLtkBI

QbPKbjJr3Ps

Simpler case, with cloak and 12 meter jumping noise from upgraded legs aug (radius of a normal jump noise is 8m):

2y1twEe1PCc

Locutus of BORG
17th Oct 2011, 20:41
Nice thinking, that's how I did some of this hard DTD with enemies from different zones. It won't work everywhere though, because you'll need a silenced weapon (no such thing in Sarif's plant) and, most likely, an invisibility aug. There is a more universally applicable method (see the videos below).
Doesn't the Tranq gun work? Bots will investigate missed shots from that thing.




The level of game-breaking bot abuse in this thread is just staggering! :thumb:

gyron
17th Oct 2011, 21:16
Doesn't the Tranq gun work? Bots will investigate missed shots from that thing. Yeah, tranq will work -- but crates are just more l33t. Also when both guards you're trying to lure together will hear the impact noise they will both turn in its direction, which is not something you want in Sarif Plant -- at least not in the cases above, because one of the guards will face the door frame and would spot you behind his friends' back.


The level of game-breaking bot abuse in this thread is just staggering! :thumb: It could have been worse! Imagine if you could do take-downs on bots Raiden-style... this run then indeed would be 'ultimate', with Adam relying only his faithful hands and battery through the whole game :D

auric
17th Oct 2011, 21:52
It could have been worse! Imagine if you could do take-downs on bots Raiden-style... this run then indeed would be 'ultimate', with Adam relying only his faithful hands and battery through the whole game :D

Watch as Adam stabs the joints, cut wires, rip some off, chop the gun off. :D
30 seconds takedown video.

RealSamFisher
17th Oct 2011, 21:55
Not on this run, no. There are ~50 DTD's out of 166 that can be done without making anyone alert using invisibility and rerouting. But most of the enemies stand still or too far away from each other for "no-alert" DTD. Some DTD's are impossible to do without some sort of distraction (like when one of the guards is sitting on a chair). Cloak/silent running are not a requisite -- they just save time. On my last run I tried to rely on augs as little as I could and did most of the DTD on a single cell, I've had a need for a second cell (for augs) in 30 or so DTD's. If you go with single take-downs I think you could do them all on one cell.

If you're looking for "perfect ghost" play-through without cloak, see GreasedScotsman's "Zero Takedown Ghost" (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=120522). No-items, no-augs run was discussed here: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=1690407
Thank you for the answer. I may do my own "Full Stealth" approach in some time too. I like your challenge with the DTD's though and I will definitely try this out. I am not sure if I will be using the ENB series for better shadows/lighting when recording my playthroughs. I heard The Missing Link has improved the lighting and shadows of the Deus Ex Engine a lot. (So maybe the ENB series isn't necessary.) Are these improvements also available for the main game since both will be using the same engine?

gyron
17th Oct 2011, 22:11
What kind of machine do you have to play with ENB and record videos at the same time? :scratch:
I barely get 25-30 fps in 1024x768 when recording with Fraps in vanilla version on my HD5770.

No idea about ML lighting since it's not out yet -- ask in DLC thread.

RealSamFisher
17th Oct 2011, 23:16
What kind of machine do you have to play with ENB and record videos at the same time? :scratch:
I barely get 25-30 fps in 1024x768 when recording with Fraps in vanilla version on my HD5770.

No idea about ML lighting since it's not out yet -- ask in DLC thread.
I get about 60 fps with:

Windows 7 64Bit
Intel i5 750 @ 3,5Ghz
Sapphire Toxic HD5850 1024MB
G-Skill 8GB (2x4GB)

Well that's the most relevant I think. I am not sure if I will be using ENB, since it's running only on DX9 and not DX11.

collegebored
18th Oct 2011, 00:51
These videos are so fast and smooth because that's how you play on a 50th take :nut: Normally I play in the exact opposite style, actually: very slow, on a single rechargeable cell, without relying on luck too much, etc. You'll be bored with my full play-through, believe me.

lol i know what you mean, im on like 100th hour of this game over 3 playthroughs myself now. of course i meant the polished quick runs like the 2 u did ^^

Aroven
18th Oct 2011, 12:28
Wow, you really have put an awful lot of time into this! Thanks for the extra vids, that definitely should be all the techniques needed, and shows even more just how much effort went into this run.

Locutus of BORG
19th Oct 2011, 02:57
Aight, gyron. Time to run through this challenge in Missing Link!



*EM did a good job upping the average difficulty of the DLC, but DTD opportunities seem even more plentiful in ML!

gyron
19th Oct 2011, 03:48
Wow, you really have put an awful lot of time into this! Thanks for the extra vids, that definitely should be all the techniques needed, and shows even more just how much effort went into this run.
I've figured out most of this stuff while playing the leaked beta... It's not that hard if you save after each DTD or even after each step in DTD set-up. BTW if you've decided to try DTD/Ghost run and followed the advice from here: http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_by_Area#Sarif_Manufacturing_Plant, then you might want to spare yourself the trouble and take out these 4 guys from Sarif Plant with STD (from the videos above, I mean), since you'll have to knock out at least 6 enemies with STD for 2nd praxis anyway.


Aight, gyron. Time to run through this challenge in Missing Link!
I'll see what I can do :) But first it's normal run, then no-augs run, then kill-everyone run, and only after all that Ghost/DTD. So it might take a while.

Locutus of BORG
19th Oct 2011, 16:25
^ One can afford to wait a little while for his lawls. :)

junco577
23rd Oct 2011, 20:12
@ gyron: You, sir, are the chimerical offspring of Jack Bauer and Jackie Chan. The TYM penthouse scene is worthy of hollywood. Obsessive-compulsive-ists everywhere can thank you for an excellent guide to yet another time sink.

My first play-through I picked up the reflex aug very early on and made extensive use of it through quicksave/load trial and error as you describe, though not to the ultimate degree you describe here. However, I'm running on a machine BELOW the minimum recommended system specs... so I have to pause for 5-10 secs about every minute to wait while my video card complains. This freezes my game and can lead to some interesting scenarios with double takedowns... guards stuck in walls, on top of vending machines, or taken down mid air off a railed ledge to plummet to their death. Fortunately it's not that common and I compulsively save..

RedKnight7
25th Oct 2011, 20:59
omg gyron you rock!

I first saw Experience By Area (http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_by_area_(DX3)) a couple of weeks ago and for a while was using it more as a guide to make sure I didn't miss anything... then it finally hit me... this dude is saying you can e.g. DTD 30 of the guys in Omega Ranch? wth??? He must have insane eons of time to line up everything perfectly but even then ... wth??

Til finally I saw the little note leading to this thread... and now I have a whole lot more playing to do :)

Actually... I appreciated the statements that 1) DTDs only add 1% more to score (not counting the uber easy ones) and 2) you played the pre-beta a lot, too. Otherwise I would've felt even worse than I feel now, lol

Thanks for the great wikia section, and movies and thoughts here!


RK7

gyron
26th Oct 2011, 03:33
@ junco577, RedKnight7: Thanks :)


I first saw Experience By Area a couple of weeks ago and for a while was using it more as a guide to make sure I didn't miss anything... then it finally hit me... this dude is saying you can e.g. DTD 30 of the guys in Omega Ranch? wth??? He must have insane eons of time to line up everything perfectly but even then ... wth??
As you can see each DTD doesn't take a lot of time -- 3 minutes max and much less later in the game. Once you get hold on AI and quicksave button this whole DTD business becomes rather trivial (buffer zone DTD's notwithstanding). Doing full playthrough for the Experience guide took me 60 hours. Some people spend 80 hours on simple STD/Ghost runs.


Til finally I saw the little note leading to this thread... and now I have a whole lot more playing to do :)
At last, someone is going to check my DTD's! Good luck with that ;)

You also reminded me that I should put this guide on wiki before it sinks into forum's bowels...

Aroven
26th Oct 2011, 06:33
Absolutely! I think this is invaluable for anyone else looking to learn about the AI, even if not specifically for the challenge. I'm working on the DTDs but have massively limited playing time atm so am still in the plant, thinking that my other single takedown should've been the guy in the largest storage room who patrols rather than one of the guys in that lab - best I can do with him is make him patrol near the door, he won't go stand by it no matter what I've tried, so now has a miniature race track to walk through that takes him past it!

gyron
27th Oct 2011, 16:09
I've finished The Missing Link, and it I must say it was pretty easy for Ghost/DTD/Clean Sweep run. Maybe two or three double take-downs took me more that 10 minutes, but overall it's nothing outstanding. Sparse environments, a lot of pre-set DTD's, tons of candy for invisibility -- it felt like a simpler version of FEMA camp or Belltower's Port. Pure ghosting/Factory Zero run was fun though.

If someone needs a rundown on DTD's and XP in TML it's on wiki: http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_by_area_(DX3ML)

jeyeichkey
27th Oct 2011, 20:05
Gyron, I just watched your latest vids on DTD, and it still amazes me. How the heck is it that the enemies don't see you trough the railing? (First video) I have a great ifficulty with being out of sight from enemies. They seem so see me no matter what I do. Adams hair sticks up they see me, I walk behind a guard, they see me.. Man, what you are doing is straight out impossible!
:^)

Great vids, I would have liked to have them running in the background while I'm doing something at home. No chance for downloads?

gyron
27th Oct 2011, 22:48
How the heck is it that the enemies don't see you trough the railing? (First video)
It's part of the general problem with DXHR: the props artists created and the objects level designers placed on levels are two completely different things that don't match each other consistently. Sure you've hit an invisible wall in mid-air or fell through objects that you thought would be solid (like a lot of rooftop props in Hengsha)? It's the same stuff. In Sarif Plant railings are visually transparent, but physically -- they're solid objects, so AI can't see through them. In later levels they're not, but you can't tell that without testing and failing numerous times.


I have a great ifficulty with being out of sight from enemies. They seem so see me no matter what I do. Adams hair sticks up they see me, I walk behind a guard, they see me.. Man, what you are doing is straight out impossible!
In videos it's me playing the game for the 6th or 7th time after 10-20 attempts on each situation, so I push AI as much as possible. You don't have to play like that.

Take the stealth enhancement augs. Abuse invisibility. Save a lot :)


I would have liked to have them running in the background while I'm doing something at home. No chance for downloads?
http://savevideo.me -- you can download any youtube video there.

auric
27th Oct 2011, 22:59
It's part of the general problem with DXHR: the props artists created and the objects level designers placed on levels are two completely different things that don't match each other consistently. Sure you've hit an invisible wall in mid-air or fell through objects that you thought would be solid (like a lot of rooftop props in Hengsha)? It's the same stuff. In Sarif Plant railings are visually transparent, but physically -- they're solid objects, so AI can't see through them. In later levels they're not, but you can't tell that without testing and failing numerous times.

Strange, I don't find such moments other than Barret's invi wall corner. :D

Locutus of BORG
28th Oct 2011, 01:27
It's part of the general problem with DXHR: the props artists created and the objects level designers placed on levels are two completely different things that don't match each other consistently. Sure you've hit an invisible wall in mid-air or fell through objects that you thought would be solid (like a lot of rooftop props in Hengsha)? It's the same stuff. In Sarif Plant railings are visually transparent, but physically -- they're solid objects, so AI can't see through them. In later levels they're not, but you can't tell that without testing and failing numerous times.

Picus... :tear: That was a sorrowful experience on my first noob PT.

gyron
28th Oct 2011, 01:36
Strange, I don't find such moments other than Barret's invi wall corner. :D
There are tons of invisible walls (and invisible holes). Try stacking crates to get somewhere you don't suppose to go and you'll hit a barrier after a third crate on most levels. Or watch videos by Amoirealinge (http://www.youtube.com/user/Amoirealinge). This for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TBlcq1daN0#t=36s.

jeyeichkey
28th Oct 2011, 09:29
@gyron

Oh, that was extremely useful. Thanks for the tips mate!


I might add, I'm thinking about doing a Complete Survive Run, where Adam may not die once. The boss battles is easy to beat, but also easy to die in if one makes one misstake. Only time to save will be when one must do soemthing else like sleep, or get to work. That would make either a longer game, or a mad run for your life (if I know myself that is) ;^)

RedKnight7
28th Oct 2011, 20:45
Great vids, I would have liked to have them running in the background while I'm doing something at home. No chance for downloads?

If you have RealPlayer, it has an option to capture videos from YouTube and most any other site.

jeyeichkey
28th Oct 2011, 22:03
@RedKnight7
I have a weak memory of RealPlayer being a pain in the ass when ever I tried to use it. I'm almost over that painful period of my life. Nowadays I use VLC and I'm feeling grand.

And the saving awesome stealth videos issue is solved *happy face*

RedKnight7
29th Oct 2011, 02:52
I have a weak memory of RealPlayer being a pain in the ass when ever I tried to use it. I'm almost over that painful period of my life. Nowadays I use VLC and I'm feeling grand.

I'm not talking about using it for a media player. Just for its cool ability to right-click most any video on any site and bam download it. Easier than savevideo.me

Good gaming - RK7

slackie
1st Nov 2011, 17:52
My favourite place for DTD now is the Omega Ranch. Tonnes of DTD setup and the challenge is how to do it with minimal cloak if possible (tho Omega Ranch has many candy bars to pick up). E.g of really fun timing would be the 2nd DTD, where you have to get on the box, open the window, wait for the precise moment to climb through and DTD...the window is about 1 sec where they just turn away from each other.

The tricky one would be the 2 guys near the broadcast tower.... have to wait for the heavy to move towards the turret, while using the pistol to hit a spot behind to distract the other patrolling dude between the heavy the the turret. And in for the 3rd DTD... would be a little more work when the 2 finished their chat and one goes into the tower area.

4th DTD would be the 2 heavies... But we're left with one sneaker. Now the question is, is there a way to trap him somewhere first and reserve him for DTD with the 3 guards that spawn later part of the stage? Or would that be too tedious?

gyron
1st Nov 2011, 18:35
My favourite place for DTD now is the Omega Ranch. Tonnes of DTD setup and the challenge is how to do it with minimal cloak if possible (tho Omega Ranch has many candy bars to pick up). E.g of really fun timing would be the 2nd DTD, where you have to get on the box, open the window, wait for the precise moment to climb through and DTD...the window is about 1 sec where they just turn away from each other.

The tricky one would be the 2 guys near the broadcast tower.... have to wait for the heavy to move towards the turret, while using the pistol to hit a spot behind to distract the other patrolling dude between the heavy the the turret. And in for the 3rd DTD... would be a little more work when the 2 finished their chat and one goes into the tower area.

Omega ranch is fun, especially the Microgen lab: 3 floors with 3 soldiers on each. It took me a while how to figure out who to pair with whom.

Concerning DTD #3: if they separate, I think that jumping outside the fence will lure the guard #1 near the guard #2's stop point. Timing it without the cloak would be tricky, though.


4th DTD would be the 2 heavies... But we're left with one sneaker. Now the question is, is there a way to trap him somewhere first and reserve him for DTD with the 3 guards that spawn later part of the stage? Or would that be too tedious?

No need to trap him. Just hide the ogres' bodies (in the ventilation shaft, for example) and leave him on patrol. After uploading the virus, follow the 3 guys for a while: there will be a nice opportunity to take out 2 of them and the 3rd one will go straight to the door near the sneaker's patrol path.

slackie
2nd Nov 2011, 10:14
Omega ranch is fun, especially the Microgen lab: 3 floors with 3 soldiers on each. It took me a while how to figure out who to pair with whom.

Concerning DTD #3: if they separate, I think that jumping outside the fence will lure the guard #1 near the guard #2's stop point. Timing it without the cloak would be tricky, though.



No need to trap him. Just hide the ogres' bodies (in the ventilation shaft, for example) and leave him on patrol. After uploading the virus, follow the 3 guys for a while: there will be a nice opportunity to take out 2 of them and the 3rd one will go straight to the door near the sneaker's patrol path.

Actually, come to think of it, I should leave the sneaker who goes into the tower alone until after the virus is uploaded.

I basically leave the 2 lone guards in the both buildings for STD, not possible to lure them into the other wing of the building... I tried, it bugged out big big time man...tried using various objects to block the office entrances, they'll teleport! The funniest part was that lone sleeping guard, when I lured him out, blocked his doors to his office, he actually went to the office on the upper floor and dropped through the floor back onto his own chair! (damn stupid bug)

Ok, was quite clear cut for me how to do the 3 x 3. The 1st floor I pair the guard at the comp with the other one patrolling. Then I take out the crates and boxes from the mortuary near the lone guard behind a breakable wall, jump lure one of the guards from 2nd floor to first floor near the level 1, block the stairs and he basically gets stuck there. Using the silence pistol can command him to face left or face right :P Then lure the other guy from the room out to DTD him. The rest of it is pretty straight forward.

gyron
2nd Nov 2011, 14:40
Actually, come to think of it, I should leave the sneaker who goes into the tower alone until after the virus is uploaded.

Ok, was quite clear cut for me how to do the 3 x 3. The 1st floor I pair the guard at the comp with the other one patrolling. Then I take out the crates and boxes from the mortuary near the lone guard behind a breakable wall, jump lure one of the guards from 2nd floor to first floor near the level 1, block the stairs and he basically gets stuck there. Using the silence pistol can command him to face left or face right :P Then lure the other guy from the room out to DTD him. The rest of it is pretty straight forward.
Ah, that's the beauty of this playstyle — there is no perfect solution, of course. Actually I got the most fun out of it doing the most ridiculous DTD's. In this 3x3 situation, for example, I've forced the guy from the 3rd floor come down to the sleeping sneaker on 2nd floor in the opposite side of the building — just to see if I can make him walk 50 meters.


I basically leave the 2 lone guards in the both buildings for STD, not possible to lure them into the other wing of the building... I tried, it bugged out big big time man...tried using various objects to block the office entrances, they'll teleport! The funniest part was that lone sleeping guard, when I lured him out, blocked his doors to his office, he actually went to the office on the upper floor and dropped through the floor back onto his own chair! (damn stupid bug)
LOL, this happens every time when enemies are lured too far away from default positions. In DRB I've seen a guy walk straight through walls like a f***ng terminator just so he could take a piss in his favorite corner. Pretty annoying to say the least.

By the way, it's one of the few things devs fixed in TML: guards from one sector can be lured in another sector 100 m away and they go back using the normal means (without teleporting) or can even begin patrolling new sector like it was his own.

slackie
2nd Nov 2011, 15:16
anyway, I left the other sneaker in the courtyard alone in my DTD run for Omega Ranch... The 2nd last DTD is a tricky one, basically running behind quietly with the 3 guards and taking the opportunity to DTD the 2 on the right, which will leave the 3rd one on the left to the Sneaker that we left out right at the beginning.

gyron
2nd Nov 2011, 15:27
anyway, I left the other sneaker in the courtyard alone in my DTD run for Omega Ranch... The 2nd last DTD is a tricky one, basically running behind quietly with the 3 guards and taking the opportunity to DTD the 2 on the right, which will leave the 3rd one on the left to the Sneaker that we left out right at the beginning.

Yep, I did the same here.

One last thing, concerning the issue with luring enemies to different zones (like luring the guard from Biotech to Microgen lab that you talked above): it seems to be an unavoidable engine limitation.

I thought I came up with a method to bypass enemies' zone restrictions — but alas, no luck.

It could, possibly, work like this:
1) Finish the level with the Ghost rating, leaving 2 enemies from different zones for later.
2) Go back and knock out one of them with PEPS without receiving XP for him. PEPS is very random at whom it knocks out, but usually this happens when enemy is shot against a wall/while sitting or flies under a table. It is the most tricky part, but I've got 10-25% success rate at this, so it's not just a one-time bug.

http://s8.postimage.org/toypu2fdx/DXHR_DTG_PEPS1.jpg

3) Drag the body where another lone enemy could see him and come to wake him up.

http://s8.postimage.org/6os2hqhk5/DXHR_DTG_PEPS2.jpg

4) Take them down. Since there were no XP awarded for guy #1, DTD should give XP as normal.

http://s8.postimage.org/ju7knubfp/DXHR_DTG_PEPS3.jpg

The problem is — it doesn't work on enemies from different zones. Body from another zone is treated like it's not even there. I've tried 4 or 5 places with no result: at best, enemies will come to check the body, sound an alarm, but they never wake up their buddy.

So, if it's not possible to lure an enemy using normal means, then nothing short of glitch will help.

slackie
2nd Nov 2011, 16:10
Ah, that's the beauty of this playstyle — there is no perfect solution, of course. Actually I got the most fun out of it doing the most ridiculous DTD's. In this 3x3 situation, for example, I've forced the guy from the 3rd floor come down to the sleeping sneaker on 2nd floor in the opposite side of the building — just to see if I can make him walk 50 meters.

Almost all the DTD are predicatable, except for the 2nd last one where we have to chase after those 3 buggers. If you're lucky, you can DTD them right after they make their 2nd corner...but I find it pretty random sometimes - we only know that the Sneaker follows right behind but randomly, he just doesn't stick close enough sometimes to the other guard for you to go in for it.

gyron
2nd Nov 2011, 16:48
That's what "Save-Reload" method is for :)

slackie
2nd Nov 2011, 18:53
That's what "Save-Reload" method is for :)

Trying to do a flawless DTD run, but helluva difficult when that dumb Sneaker, that is dashing out after uploading the virus, tends to get stuck to one of the crates. :(

slackie
3rd Nov 2011, 06:24
Hey Gyron, since we're talking about Omega Ranch DTD only, here's how I do it, compare notes :P

Still trying to figure my way around fraps, it makes the whole gameplay and framerates jerky as hell.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=123338

junco577
3rd Nov 2011, 16:18
Ok, I have a question for any stealth gurus out there. In the Harvester's Hideout in Hengsha (2nd time), I am trying to lure harvesters together for double takedowns but they just won't let themselves be herded into my eager fists. I have:
-Thrown boxes near and directly at them.
-Used gunfire, up to and including a shotgun blast right in front of them.
-Jumped, sprinted, leaped, and done cartwheels loudly while cloaked next to them.
-KO'd nearby guards to see if that would get their attention.

I realize that both times I talk to Tong there is no Ghost bonus at stake, but I like to avoid being hostile despite that. I was able to bring two guards together in an alarmed state by tossing UR-DEDs to direct their movement, but it was a hassle and far from ideal. Am I missing an obvious way to double-takedown these friendly harvesters who give XP without going hostile? How did you handle this area? Thanks!

Edit: throwing unconscious bodies at the harvesters alarmed them enough to pursue sounds (box impacts did nothing) and allow me to DTD them while not hostile, but surely there is a better solution than being a *cockney accent* bloody body tosser.

gyron
3rd Nov 2011, 18:32
@junco577 If you're aiming to perform all DTD's in Harvester's Hideout, then you'll have to do at least 3 buffer zone take-downs, which is a royal pain in the ass and, if I remember correctly, takes about an hour to do. Are you sure you're up for it? ;) If yes, then can you describe which DTD give you the troubles?

junco577
3rd Nov 2011, 18:58
Thanks for the reply, I noticed the buffer zones on the ramps on my way in to Tong initially. The part I'm actually questioning is AFTER I first talk to him (finding the GPL in his scavenged arm), when the harvesters respawn and are all friendly towards me. I'm having trouble getting them to move so I can do DTDs using the normal methods due to their being friendly, and I am hoping to avoid going hostile as mentioned in the last post. Oh, I have the explosive mission pack btw, so I'm currently on the objective to bring news of the rescue of Tong's son back to his father. If you don't have this DLC, then just assume after first talking to Tong and I assume on the way to the port.

For a specific example, let's take the two sitting on the couches to the left of Tong's room when you leave it. I have hit them with boxes, jumped on them, shot guns everywhere in the room, tossing mines/UR-DEDs but the only thing that alarms them enough to respond to leading noises is doing damage to them (e.g. non-fatal shooting or hitting them with a body). And if I can't lead them, then I can't position them for DTDs. Is the only way to do this via going hostile?

slackie
3rd Nov 2011, 19:05
@junco577 If you're aiming to perform all DTD's in Harvester's Hideout, then you'll have to do at least 3 buffer zone take-downs, which is a royal pain in the ass and, if I remember correctly, takes about an hour to do. Are you sure you're up for it? ;) If yes, then can you describe which DTD give you the troubles?

Harvester Hideout...oh man, no Ghost bonus for that stage, plus that stupid guy at the security terminal teleports back into his chair from outside if you try to use the crates to block off his door after luring him outside... sometimes I just go full-lethal for the fun of it :P

gyron
3rd Nov 2011, 20:09
For a specific example, let's take the two sitting on the couches to the left of Tong's room when you leave it. I have hit them with boxes, jumped on them, shot guns everywhere in the room, tossing mines/UR-DEDs but the only thing that alarms them enough to respond to leading noises is doing damage to them (e.g. non-fatal shooting or hitting them with a body). And if I can't lead them, then I can't position them for DTDs. Is the only way to do this via going hostile?

If they're friendly then you'll have to turn one of them hostile — and yes, it's the only way. You'll need Strength aug + Invisibility: turn the cloak on and then throw a medium cardboard box at one of the harvesters. (I used this method here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5kBq1tJT_k), but for other purposes)

He alone should become alarmed — normally, after 5 seconds everyone will be friendly again, except for this guy. He will come to investigate the place you've thrown the box from. When he will pass near the sitting harvester, you'll have to shoot one of them, then quickly take them down. Since it may turn others hostile I recommend leaving these two for last.

This method should work on everyone else in HH, even on hostile harvesters before you speak with Tong.

The only peaceful method is luring the heavy harvesters with UR-DED: you can literally lead them where you need them to go. Although there is only one DTD that can be done this way, so use the boxes.

junco577
3rd Nov 2011, 22:19
Interesting! I tried throwing the two cardboard box sizes smaller than that (about 1/2 size and 1/8 size) at the harvester's heads with no results. I guess size does matter. :rolleyes:

Thanks for confirming about the no viable alternative to hostilities... guess it's time to break my anti-hostile code. The friendly policemen and punks from Detroit were all so much more willing to walk with my cloaked jumps and throws. I guess that southern Chinese hospitality just isn't what I'd hoped.

gyron
4th Nov 2011, 09:02
Thanks for confirming about the no viable alternative to hostilities... guess it's time to break my anti-hostile code. The friendly policemen and punks from Detroit were all so much more willing to walk with my cloaked jumps and throws. I guess that southern Chinese hospitality just isn't what I'd hoped.

NOTHING should stand in the sacred way of XP farming. NOTHING.

Ahem. As for turning them hostile, box throwing is only sort-of-aggressive, since you can't kill them this way. It's like calling them a rude name, essentially. Oh and I told you wrong about shooting one of them: shooting the silenced pistol at the floor near the sitting harvester (while cloaked, of course) will also make him stand up. With this strategy they will never go above "alarmed", so you won't be breaking the etiquette here :D

slackie
4th Nov 2011, 14:49
Okay, for Alice Pod ambush, there are 3 guards on ground floor, is there any buffer zone? I can't seem to lure them downstairs to the guy in the locker room and vice versa...hmmm

junco577
4th Nov 2011, 16:09
Oh and I told you wrong about shooting one of them: shooting the silenced pistol at the floor near the sitting harvester (while cloaked, of course) will also make him stand up. With this strategy they will never go above "alarmed", so you won't be breaking the etiquette here :D

Actually that didn't work for me for some reason. I shot basically every weapon available both cloaked and uncloaked next to these harvesters. It seemed odd to me that they wouldn't respond, which is why I kept testing for other ways to get their attention and then posted on here asking about it. Only after causing damage to them (shooting them or hitting them with a large enough object) would they notice gunfire.

gyron
4th Nov 2011, 17:42
Okay, for Alice Pod ambush, there are 3 guards on ground floor, is there any buffer zone? I can't seem to lure them downstairs to the guy in the locker room and vice versa...hmmm
No, sadly, the pods zone and the shower zone do not contact — there is a kind of no-man's land between them. The guard from the shower room can't be lured up to the first floor, so you'll have to do 2 STD's here.


Actually that didn't work for me for some reason. I shot basically every weapon available both cloaked and uncloaked next to these harvesters. It seemed odd to me that they wouldn't respond, which is why I kept testing for other ways to get their attention and then posted on here asking about it. Only after causing damage to them (shooting them or hitting them with a large enough object) would they notice gunfire.
That's what I meant, sorry for not being clear.

And by the way, I figured out a peaceful solution for your problem: building a "maze" out of boxes (with the maze "exit" leading to another enemy) and then throwing UR-DED could redirect a harvester into DTD position — without turning anyone hostile. Although I'm not sure there is enough boxes there for every DTD in Hideout to be done this way.

http://s7.postimage.org/y9792feff/DXHR_DTG_HH2.jpg

http://s7.postimage.org/yzzz87gsr/DXHR_DTG_HH3.jpg

junco577
5th Nov 2011, 02:16
That maze is a pretty creative idea, good thinking. I went ahead and KO'd one of the guards who I didn't think could be DTD'd due to border issues and used his body as a lure. Sometimes I'd have to hit a harverster with the body to get him to comply, but neither of these actions made them hostile so I was able to get my DTD's in without entering a hostile state. I think that's the only spot in the game I'll have to let a body be seen, but I could be wrong.

junco577
5th Nov 2011, 02:35
All that stealthing was getting to me, I couldn't take it anymore and had to do something very un-stealthy.
It's a cubist scuplture in wood with light foreground corpse accents. It's a good thing.

Click to view larger image:
http://i41.tinypic.com/taj2pl.jpg (http://i41.tinypic.com/1znny9u.jpg)

Think the next shift will notice?

RedKnight7
5th Nov 2011, 02:38
I couldn't take it anymore

I'm with you junco, lol

gyron
5th Nov 2011, 07:55
Crate picture, junco577. Truly crate.

With a creative mind like yours you should start a thread for this stuff, because it is intensifying to the point where existing threads may not be able to contain it.

slackie
6th Nov 2011, 18:08
Ok, the other version of Omega Ranch minus all the unnecessary body hiding and still get Ghost achievement :P

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=1705783#post1705783

collegebored
7th Nov 2011, 18:35
man, gyron, watching your videos is more fun than some of the **** i've paid for in theaters.
btw, was the DT run also pacifist? im pretty sure when i shoved someone like you did in Singapore, it snapped them in half ^^

@junco, thats some epic artwork

jeyeichkey
7th Nov 2011, 19:48
@junco577
That "hello" was indeed creative. I only go around moving refridgerators and putting them togheter somewhere.
:^)

gyron
7th Nov 2011, 19:50
btw, was the DT run also pacifist? im pretty sure when i shoved someone like you did in Singapore, it snapped them in half ^^
Nope, I was aiming for maximum XP on DTD run, so I had to kill 9 intruders in the introduction. I have also killed Chan during Mei's quest and let Malik die, for the same reason. But other than that, it was non-lethal take-downs all the way.

gyron
27th Nov 2011, 18:20
I've added this guide to Deus Ex wiki: Takedown#Double_Takedowns_Guide (http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Takedown#Double_Takedowns_Guide).

vilik
9th Jan 2012, 22:32
Hi,

sorry for a slight necro but this thread is simply full of awesome sauce.

First of big props to gyron - I have played the game using your techniques and had a blast. Simple stealth is just too easy, but setting up DTDs actually made the game challenging.

Second, I would like to consult DTD in Missing Link I was unable to perform so far.

At the end, on the return to Loading Bay 1, after solving the gas dispersal problem, there are 6 soldiers. I did 2x MAN (snipers on elevated platforms), 1x DTD (soldiers near door to Admin Sector). I have trouble setting up the last DTD (one remaining soldier on ground floor plus the soldier in security room on elevated pavement). Seems like these buggers have different zones thet are not fully adjacent to each other. Is this DTD confirmed / how do you perform it?

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-cHwGmIakG_w/Twtnj27FurI/AAAAAAAAAAk/EI9tLyJ6A-Q/s800/2012-01-09_00001.jpg

The soldier on the picture is from the bottom floor, he will not go further up the stairs. The soldier from the security room right below me can be lured to the spot where I point with the laser, but will not go down the stairs. In the end, they are too far away from each other to perform DTD.

gyron
10th Jan 2012, 21:04
Oh man, I haven't played DX in like 2 months. Just reminded how miss these DTD puzzles...

Alright, so here is the deal: there are 7 soldiers in Admin Sector and 6 in Loading Bay 1. There are 2 STDs on snipers + 5 DTDs + 1 STD on a soldier from ground level. The only solution in this situation is to first perform STD on the guy from LB1 you've tried to lure up the stairs (on your screenshot) and try to set up DTDs with the remaining soldiers.

If you've already cleaned the AS and spent your 1 STD there, then you'll have reload a save from the start of this section, because this platform in LB1 is indeed inaccessible for the 3 guys patrolling below.

1) First, after Burke contacts you, do 3 DTD in AS and then do 2 STDs on snipers and 1 STD on the soldier in LB1 I mentioned above. Then lure the bad guy #1 away from his cabin in LB1. Just jump behind the door and when he goes to check it block the door with a crate (there should be one nearby).

http://s14.postimage.org/ql8mu531t/DXHRML_GDTD_AS_LB2_1.jpg

2) If he can't get back to the cabin he will go to the far end of the platform and stay there. Also you'll need to find a second crate somewhere and place it like I did here.

http://s14.postimage.org/xr0dwlc4x/DXHRML_GDTD_AS_LB2_2.jpg

3) Use the door to get back to Admin sector. Here is the fun part: soldiers from AS treat it as the one zone with Loading Bays 1 and 2. So you can lure the bad guy #2 by making a disturbance on the other side of his barricade (shooting the wall is the easiest way). He will take a long trip around through LB1 to check the disturbance.

http://s14.postimage.org/5s685qai9/DXHRML_GDTD_AS_LB2_3.jpg

4) Follow him back to LB1 -- you'll have a small time window for DTD while he walks around the crate. You have the cloak, so performing this DTD should be easy. I was playing with additional "single battery challenge" so I had to time the shot to make the guy #1 turn away from the door.

http://s14.postimage.org/6iyybicvl/DXHRML_GDTD_AS_LB2_4.jpg

Good luck on doing the rest of DTDs in LB2. There are just 6 soldiers but I think those 3 DTDs are the hardest ones in both DXHR and TML. Took me 1 hour without the cloak.

gyron
15th Jun 2012, 01:05
I decided to celebrate the DXHR leaked Beta anniversary and revisited one of my favorite levels in the game: Sarif Plant. Since half the work here is actually getting enough XP for the second praxis point and Reflex Booster I expanded my usual Ghost+DTD video into "XP guide". The first part (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC781g23kfU) is mostly me working through XP list (http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_by_area_(DX3)#).

Stealthy double takedown action is in the part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PEESnMS3jo):

3PEESnMS3jo

DrSarecrow
12th Jul 2012, 10:17
Hi. Sorry for some necro, but I have a question. In guide on DEwiki:
"Highland Park
Abandoned Factory
MAN(12)/DTD(6): 6 patrolling the courtyard area; 6 inside the factory (5 on lower level, 1 sniper on catwalks). For the 6th DTD you have to throw the sniper down from the catwalks to lower level by throwing a heavy crate at him."
Can anyone explain how to do this throwdown?

gyron
13th Jul 2012, 23:10
For the 6th DTD you have to throw the sniper down from the catwalks to lower level by throwing a heavy crate at him."
Can anyone explain how to do this throwdown?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSJsCDRMwG0

This works 1 time out of 5. Other times he either dies from the hit or ends up on a roof of the shed. But it's a solid method and will work on later stages. It's required for 8 more DTDs.

You can also trick him into doing the "panic jump" animation if you throw a concussion mine or UR-DED when he's near the edge -- so he falls down on his own, but it's too random (1/20).

Astharold
10th Sep 2012, 18:55
@gyron
Thanks to your advices, I manage to get max XP in the Missing Link and now try it in the main game.
But is it really possible to perform 9 DTDs in Alice Garden Pods ambush, like said on the Wiki page Experince by area (http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_by_area_%28DX3%29) ?

If yes, how ?

And thank you again for your videos

gyron
15th Sep 2012, 18:53
@gyron
Thanks to your advices, I manage to get max XP in the Missing Link and now try it in the main game.
But is it really possible to perform 9 DTDs in Alice Garden Pods ambush, like said on the Wiki page Experince by area (http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_by_area_%28DX3%29) ?

If yes, how ?

Sorry for answering late.

I'm the editor of the wiki XP guide, so I can guarantee that the numbers you see there are 100% legit.
The DTD you're asking about is one of the 8 DTD's that require "invisible wall bypassing": lure your target to invisible wall (that prevents him from moving close to 2nd target) and hit him in the back with a heavy object. He should fly through the wall and will turn hostile but you won't lose Ghost; you can then perform the takedown using normal methods. In Alice Garden Pods you'll need to pair Khan or one of the heavy soldiers with the guy patrolling the dressing room below -- and you will need to perform the bypassing on each target.

DrSarecrow was asking about the same kind of DTD above, but I've accidentally deleted my video response. If you need the basic idea behind it, see the trick with the sniper here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl-GG_OoQD0#t=7320s).

I should probably say that the takedown you're asking about will take at least hour to set up without losing Ghost -- it's hardly worth it unless you really enjoy this stuff.

Astharold
16th Sep 2012, 09:10
@gyron

Thanks for the reply. I already did this trick with the sniper you're talking about and, in Alice Garden Pods, tried to do it up the stairs with Kahn. It didn't work, that's the reason of my previous post.

Can you post a video to show how you do this ? Or explain in details cause I really don't see how to do. Where is this invisible wall ? Is it a very precise location or greater area ? How does it works (special handling with objects and/or ennemies) ?

PS: I wasn't really sure you are the editor of the wiki page. Thank you for this, it's really a great awesome job you've done. Congratulations and thank you again.

gyron
17th Sep 2012, 17:14
@gyron

Thanks for the reply. I already did this trick with the sniper you're talking about and, in Alice Garden Pods, tried to do it up the stairs with Kahn. It didn't work, that's the reason of my previous post.

Can you post a video to show how you do this ? Or explain in details cause I really don't see how to do. Where is this invisible wall ? Is it a very precise location or greater area ? How does it works (special handling with objects and/or ennemies) ?

I'm a little busy to make a video, so I hope screens will suffice.

Here's how to do it:
1) Deal with everyone except Khan and soldier patrolling the showers, save, confirm that you got Ghost, reload and make a perma-save. Ghost on this level is prone to glitching, so it's a good idea to save as often as possible.
2) The 1st invisible wall you'll need to bypass is between restaurant area and the stairs. Lure Khan to the edge of the stairs, block him with objects and hit him in the back (while he's facing the stairs) with something heavy like a vending machine -- it works exactly the same way as with that sniper. It should take 4-5 attempts before he actually pierces the wall.

http://i.imgur.com/Y517C.jpg

3) Now he should be in the stairs area, but there still will be two invisible walls between the targets. Doing the same trick on Khan again will kill him, so switch to the soldier in the showers. Lure him to the door leading to L-shaped corridor and perform the same routine.
4) Now there is only 1 wall separating them, so it shouldn't be a problem to get them together. Block Khan, lure the soldier to him with pistol shots, BAM:

http://i.imgur.com/arGGg.jpg

P.S. Other DTD's where you'll need bypassing (in addition to AGP, Construction area and FEMA camp's top level):
1) After you exit from AGP there will be 5+3 Belltower soldiers on the streets. Invisible walls are blocking the stairs. No need to worry about Ghost, so should be easy.
2+3) There are plenty of opportunities to use this trick in Harvester's hideout, as there are many walls separating the different levels (at least 5). But you only really need it for 2 DTDs on 4 guys on levels -2, -1 and 0 -- that's after you speak to Tong. Again, there is no Ghost in this area.
4+5) Two snipers in Belltower's port, same deal as in Construction area. Ghost is easy to check (find Tong's package).
6) Omega Ranch: 2 walls blocking the sky-walk between Microgen (9 guys) and Biomech (5) labs. You get a Ghost check after speaking to one of the scientists.

Astharold
17th Sep 2012, 22:11
@gyron

Thank you very much for taking the time, explanations and all, screenshots are more than enough.