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Plaque
18th Sep 2011, 18:31
The game is all about player choices. However some choices are strongly encouraged by the game's RPG mechanics, while other gameplay choices and styles are penalized within this system.


1) Players are encouraged to hack everything. Who is honestly using passwords and passcodes in DX:HR? The joy from finding a password - gone.

(accidentally opened a locked door from the inside? Load, run around, HACK THE LOCK and collect your XP.)

2) Exploration = experience hunt. You know you don't need to get into that vent shaft, but you go there just to collect traveller XP.

3) Expedient/Merciful Soul = the experience reward difference between non-lethal stealth approach and a lethal direct approach is so great - even an excellent, creatively played skirmish feels like a failure.

4) You are not encouraged to set turrets and robots against enemies anymore, it would rob you of Ghost, Smooth Operator and tons of Merciful Soul XP bonuses. What a shame.

---- 'Expedient' XP bonus is awarded for wasting of the most precious 'ammunition' in the game - an energy bar.
I know you walk around the city with 40000 credits in your pockets, but no - you can't buy an energy bar.
(You can purchase only cyberboost jar which is a terrible, terrible bad joke - even one of them kills your inventory. The thing weights more than a rocket launcher)

--- also the health regenerates in full but the energy doesn't - shouldn't it be the other way around? It would make so much more sense to activate healing with active augmentation, and then have the energy regenerated by passive aug.

Conclusion - RPG mechanics are ruining the game by constantly reminding you what is valued by the designers and what isn't. No one forces you to play by those rules, but the RULES are there and they are forced on player.

Does anyone else feels this way?

Don't get me wrong, I love the game, - it excels in being a true Deus Ex 1 successor. It is an overwhelming artistic achievement. But it strangely fails in these minor "meta game design" decisions. Can anyone explain?

sonicsidewinder
19th Sep 2011, 11:22
Tell me about it bro.

Arctica
19th Sep 2011, 11:27
Sometimes I let the turrets attack the guards, just for the lulz.

Srsly, no one forces you to go for max EP. So where's the problem?

codelizard
19th Sep 2011, 11:49
The game is all about player choices. However some choices are strongly encouraged by the game's RPG mechanics, while other gameplay choices and styles are penalized within this system.


1) Players are encouraged to hack everything. Who is honestly using passwords and passcodes in DX:HR? The joy from finding a password - gone.

(accidentally opened a locked door from the inside? Load, run around, HACK THE LOCK and collect your XP.)

2) Exploration = experience hunt. You know you don't need to get into that vent shaft, but you go there just to collect traveller XP.

3) Expedient/Merciful Soul = the experience reward difference between non-lethal stealth approach and a lethal direct approach is so great - even an excellent, creatively played skirmish feels like a failure.

4) You are not encouraged to set turrets and robots against enemies anymore, it would rob you of Ghost, Smooth Operator and tons of Merciful Soul XP bonuses. What a shame.

---- 'Expedient' XP bonus is awarded for wasting of the most precious 'ammunition' in the game - an energy bar.
I know you walk around the city with 40000 credits in your pockets, but no - you can't buy an energy bar.
(You can purchase only cyberboost jar which is a terrible, terrible bad joke - even one of them kills your inventory. The thing weights more than a rocket launcher)

--- also the health regenerates in full but the energy doesn't - shouldn't it be the other way around? It would make so much more sense to activate healing with active augmentation, and then have the energy regenerated by passive aug.

Conclusion - RPG mechanics are ruining the game by constantly reminding you what is valued by the designers and what isn't. No one forces you to play by those rules, but the RULES are there and they are forced on player.

Does anyone else feels this way?

Don't get me wrong, I love the game, - it excels in being a true Deus Ex 1 successor. It is an overwhelming artistic achievement. But it strangely fails in these minor "meta game design" decisions. Can anyone explain?

Point 4 is especially relevant for stealth players, I just like to now that I completed my objective without anyone knowing I was there and if that means using their turrets against them to eliminate the guards then why should I be penalized?

Arctica
19th Sep 2011, 12:00
Point 4 is especially relevant for stealth players, I just like to now that I completed my objective without anyone knowing I was there and if that means using their turrets against them to eliminate the guards then why should I be penalized?

Just to be sure I understand you correctly:

So you hack a turret and it kills all the guards in the room. And you are asking why they know that you're there? Have you ever seen a programm that switches it's programmed task WITHOUT any reason?
And second: The bonus EP from a non-lethal takedown benefits a player for being merciful. Hacking a turret to kill guards doesn't sound merciful to me ;)

Jibbajabba
19th Sep 2011, 13:07
All true, the thread is still a massive D√©j√* vu though ...

flunkorg
19th Sep 2011, 17:33
Oh look, this thread again.

Fluffis
19th Sep 2011, 18:00
Have you ever seen a programm that switches it's programmed task WITHOUT any reason?


Have you heard of Windows? :D

Seriously, though: you're right. Of course, the guards should be react to something that badly amiss.

codelizard
19th Sep 2011, 20:22
Just to be sure I understand you correctly:

So you hack a turret and it kills all the guards in the room. And you are asking why they know that you're there? Have you ever seen a programm that switches it's programmed task WITHOUT any reason?
And second: The bonus EP from a non-lethal takedown benefits a player for being merciful. Hacking a turret to kill guards doesn't sound merciful to me ;)

so if the NPCs do not now you are there why would they be alerted to my presence when they do not now i am there?

itsonyourhead
19th Sep 2011, 20:27
Maybe if we start 50 of these threads the developers would get the point.

PugPug
19th Sep 2011, 20:43
Maybe if we start 50 of these threads the developers would get the point.

There's only one way to find out.

If I had it my way, there would be no XP at all aside from Getting Things Done. It would just be worth a lot more. Only then would we have absolute freedom of choice.

El Zoido
19th Sep 2011, 22:34
How about fixing it instead of removing it just because it's not working perfectly yet?

Reduce the amount of XP for non-lethal stealth attacks.
Give xp for finding passwords, reduce the number of hacking augs and/or make them somewhat more expensive.
A little overall balance of the other augs would help, too.

Voil√*, fixed.

3nails4you
19th Sep 2011, 22:42
Original DX awarded exploration bonus points. As far as the other points, players aren't "encouraged" to use robots or turrets because the reward for those things are intrinsic...your reward for that is that you wasted no ammunition and got to see all the guards get mowed down, then strut right on through to your destination. Skill points are awarded for stealth because stealth doesn't have any of those perks "built in," it's more difficult, and requires more time and patience, and you don't get to loot as many bodies. While takedowns vs. kills could have had less of a disparity, I feel like it wasn't THAT big of an issue (20 points vs 10 points per guard, right?). The original DX also awarded points when you lockpicked/multitooled/air vented your way into places that you didn't need to, or when you accomplished tasks, so it really isn't THAT bad as far as awarding too many points, in my opinion.

Kibou
20th Sep 2011, 12:57
I certainly agree with some of the other complaints people have about the game, but this one is merely a joke.

You guys want to have "absolute freedom of choice"? Well, what you actually mean is, you don't want to have to deal with the consequences of your choices, you don't want others to get a reward for an accomplishment you "chose" not to perform. So the stealthy approach is rewarded more XP? Did it occur to you that this is maybe intended to balance out the higher need for praxis points? Why didn't anyone complain about that, by the way?

The most expensive areas to focus on in this game are stealth and hacking. And, by some really weird coincidence, those are tasks that grant you additional experience points! Go figure!

Sure, it's a bit weird that accessing something using a code you found is rewarded less than just hacking the thing, and I wouldn't mind a fix for that, but after all it's just a minor problem - you have to keep in mind that you don't need every tiny bit of XP, and if you think you do, well, go ahead and hack it despite having the code.

I finished the game shooting all enemies, doing almost no side-quests and doing very little exploration. I didn't bother hacking computers or devices I knew the code for and I didn't reload the game when I had messed up a conversation. I just did what I felt like at the moment, without forcing myself to collect, find and see everything there is.
Nonetheless, I had reached the point where I had more praxis points than I needed quite early. Around the second visit to Hengsha I got the Aim Stabilizer and didn't bother to visit LIMB Clinics anymore to buy praxis kits. I even finished the game with several unused praxis points.

Freedom of choice doesn't mean that you get and experience everything there is, no matter what you do. Freedom of choice means that you can play the game any way you like - stupid or sophisticated, fast or slow, violent or peaceful - and it always works out somehow, and provides a fun and distinct experience with it's own challenges and rewards.

Jibbajabba
20th Sep 2011, 13:05
The main point of XP points are buying Praxis Kits - I don't understand how people complain about that either... Here is an idea - don't buy any frikin PKs to start with :)

zenstar
20th Sep 2011, 13:08
Even playing as a hacker I used passwords.
You get so much XP in the game you don't need to chase every last point. Play it however you find it fun to play. Some people find it fun to chase every point of xp. Good for them. They'll need to do things in a certain way to get the most XP.
Every choice you make has some sort of consequence. Sometimes that consequence is loss of potential XP. The choice also has bonuses: killing means that the gaurd won't be woken up. Using the turrets means you conserve ammo and clear a path for a quicker route through.
By the end of the game I had so much XP that it wasn't worth going out of my way to get more if it lessened my fun. I still explored things because I found that fun, but I wasn't doing it for the XP. I already had all the augs I wanted and all the augs that were "nice to have" and leftovers.
Stealth and exploration are harder and longer than shooting your way through or going the obvious route and so you get rewarded more for making the hard choice. I see nothing wrong with this approach. You choose to do it or not. It's nowhere near required to finish the game.

Romeo
20th Sep 2011, 18:40
There's already like... Ten threads about this.

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