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View Full Version : Don't complain about the AI. Better AI would suck.



PugPug
15th Sep 2011, 07:21
I believe I read a retrospective somewhere on Deus Ex at some point in the past couple of years where the author pointed out (and I quite agree) that one of the best parts of Deus Ex is the terrible AI.

Why? Because the fun comes from being able to sneak around and trick them.

Yes, a real person would notice someone on their hands and knees crawling around their knees behind them; forget about directly to one side. A real security guard would not see something ("Guy in a coat, I'm checking it out!"), meander over very slowly, then a minute later shrug their shoulders and figure they were seeing things or the guy must have left. They would probably notice that the glowing security camera or laser tripwires had been turned off. Or that their buddy who was there a minute ago is missing from his patrol route, and his weapon is lying on the floor.

But how much fun would it be if you had to reload a quicksave every time one of those things happened?

Though I do wish they would notice a pile of bodies in front of a corner before rounding it. Maybe through a grenade or something.

Pinky_Powers
15th Sep 2011, 19:32
Games need better AI. Human Revolution needs better AI. End of.

unbeatableDX
15th Sep 2011, 19:37
I) that one of the best parts of Deus Ex is the terrible AI.

Why? Because the fun comes from being able to sneak around and trick them.
.

what you serious?
AI is the worst thing in DX1!
maybe its cos i play every DX1-3 all guns blazing with a couple of dirty tricks and maybe a stealth kill or two

but i like the AI in DX:HR. they put up a decent fight if you dont exploit the AI

Romeo
15th Sep 2011, 19:39
I'm sort've with you, sort've not. On one hand, you are right, an ultra-reastic AI would be completely brutal to deal with, but sometimes the game does smack you in the face, loudly proclaiming that it is just a game. Case in point: Faces. A security guard's vision is not dictated by which way his eyes are pointed, but rather his torso. This leads to instances where a guard can be looking dead on at Jensen and not notice him at all. And as you mentioned, the fact that you can take a group of a dozen guards down at FEMA, and the last guy wont notice that his TWELVE co-workers have all disappeared, leaving behind their weapons, strikes the player as pretty unrealistic.

That being said, ultimately I quite enjoyed the AI in this game, for the most part. Even if the environments don't allow flanking, the AI in combat will still push the line forward (To try and drive you from cover). I also appreciate the fact the AI doesn't "cheat" in combat (As in, if you stealth and run to a different object to hide behind, the unstealth, they will still assume you're hiding behind the first piece until they see you). Stealth too, also has some decent AI. I actually like that the AI doesn't instantly recognize you when relaxed, which I actually found quite realistic (At paintball, even if you see movement of some kind in the distance, your first reaction isn't usually to start firing at it).

sonicsidewinder
15th Sep 2011, 19:39
What's more fun?

Exploiting dumb AI?

Or beating smart AI at it's own game?

unbeatableDX
15th Sep 2011, 19:43
What's more fun?

Exploiting dumb AI?

Or beating smart AI at it's own game?

exactly. number 2. and if you play combat, just bum rush everyone with loud weapons and your in for a challenge
however stealth was very easy with cloak for my pacifist and foxy achievements. but im glad because i hate playing stealthy. even in metal gear i shoot everyone. but i am forced to hide sometimes if i cant make it through an area with the alarm on.
completed the game in 5 hours and got foxy pacifist :)

Romeo
15th Sep 2011, 22:41
There's no way you beat the game in five hours, especially without tripping any alarms or being spotted. Pics, or it didn't happen.

And while I will agree that the second option sounds more fun than the first, it would've made the game the same sort've experience: Figuring out how the AI will react and exploiting that. You do this in every game, whether the AI is phenominal, or simplistic.

Ghil
15th Sep 2011, 22:46
completed the game in 5 hours and got foxy pacifist :)

o.O...O.o....O.O...o.o...-_-'

Yeah, right.

unbeatableDX
15th Sep 2011, 23:16
why is it unbelievable that i completed the game in 5 hours? i sped through. point A to point B only doing the main objectives. its a short game you know. get cloak and battery recharge maxed and your good to go. also needed inventory lvl 2 to carry snipe around which i used to kill all the bosses with ease. i just cloaked the whole time. simple. you can even sprint with cloak on and they only get aware there is someone running. they wont turn on the alarm unless they actually see you.

oh unfortunately no pics im on xbox, does not tell you how long you played for. but i timed myself, it was 5 hours. and im not even a stealth gamer so it can be beaten easily. i also found a nice execution scene by rushing through- when your meant to save malik- put cloak on and dash to the elevator(well you dont even need cloak since this is a scripted alarmed sequence) you will witness them execute malik by a bullet to the head.

there you go challenge for the hardcore elitists- beat the game in under 5 hours.
it wont be much of a challenge if i can do it when im not even a stealth gamer.

imported_BoB_
16th Sep 2011, 02:51
i also found a nice execution scene by rushing through- when your meant to save malik- put cloak on and dash to the elevator(well you dont even need cloak since this is a scripted alarmed sequence) you will witness them execute malik by a bullet to the head.

It's the Belltower Head of Security that does it in fact. The same one that attacks Alice Pod, the same one you see in TYM juste before entering Zhao's Office (he has the ironfist password), the same one that you will find again in the Belltower Docks level if you didn't kill him the three previous times.
And it's also the same guy that talks with Tong if you don't convince him, and that you have to spy on him for hearing about Van Bruggen location.

unbeatableDX
16th Sep 2011, 02:56
It's the Belltower Head of Security that does it in fact. The same one that attacks Alice Pod, the same one you see in TYM juste before entering Zhao's Office (he has the ironfist password), the same one that you will find again in the Belltower Docks level if you didn't kill him the three previous times.
And it's also the same guy that talks with Tong if you don't convince him, and that you have to spy on him for hearing about Van Bruggen location.

thats cool didnt know that. you been having sex with this game havent you.

Brian175
16th Sep 2011, 03:00
Damn just watched her execution on youtube. Dramatic.

unbeatableDX
16th Sep 2011, 03:04
Damn just watched her execution on youtube. Dramatic.

LOL humans eh. you enjoy other peoples pain?

anunnaki
16th Sep 2011, 05:26
Something that bothers me about the AI is how slow they run, they don't even run they jog. They don't advance when they use an emp of concussion grenade and even if the did get close they have no melee, they did it with the bosses it would have been cool to have the same happen from some random aug. They also didn't use there augs very much other than the cloak. It's not as much there not smart enough as they aren't flashy enough. There are plenty of tricks they could have used to make them seem smarter and more organized with the selection of augs at hand. And I think it would have been more believable if they stuck with the cover of darkness method, it also would have given the whole game a darker atmosphere and overall feel. And after all of your training in the shadows, they would have sent you to a bright area throwing your game off a little, in a good way imo. Maybe find a way to cut the power in a selected area, and having the AI act fancy.

tZer
16th Sep 2011, 14:23
Eh, the games weaknesses are called features now?

Romeo
16th Sep 2011, 15:16
Eh, the games weaknesses are called features now?
At least they didn't build the franchise on weaknesses (Call of Duty).

It's the Belltower Head of Security that does it in fact. The same one that attacks Alice Pod, the same one you see in TYM juste before entering Zhao's Office (he has the ironfist password), the same one that you will find again in the Belltower Docks level if you didn't kill him the three previous times.
And it's also the same guy that talks with Tong if you don't convince him, and that you have to spy on him for hearing about Van Bruggen location.
So, what happens if you kill him earlier? Does another guard take his place?

sonicsidewinder
16th Sep 2011, 15:43
So, what happens if you kill him earlier? Does another guard take his place?

Curious also. with me, she was just blown up, then her corpse was suddenly placed in Tongs little base.

Romeo
16th Sep 2011, 15:50
Curious also. with me, she was just blown up, then her corpse was suddenly placed in Tongs little base.
I had been playing fairly non lethal up to this point (Killing only when necessary), and definitely non-combat orientated, but as soon as I saw her in trouble, I was like "Romeo Powers ACTIVATE!!". I then proceded to pull out my sniper and murder anything that even looked at my Malik. Hell, when the Box Guard gets dropped in, I didn't rush to cover, I rushed towards the doomed robot. Then I EMP-Mined it, and everyone was happy. Especially Malik. For not dying. :D

Grimesy
16th Sep 2011, 16:03
Curious also. with me, she was just blown up, then her corpse was suddenly placed in Tongs little base.

If you kill em fast enough, she'll live
If you don't kill em fast enough, she'll blow up
If you make it fast enough to the elevator, she'll get executed

managed all three options by now...

about that 5 hour speedthrough, I believe him.
Made it to the third boss-sequence in 6, shooting mostly everyone.
Shooting them takes time, speeding past them cloaked doesn't...
Just don't explore, know where you need to go and run...
And NO sidequests....

edit: With the elevator sequence, you do not need cloak,
just crouch along the right side of the area. Everyone is looking
at the helicopter, they never noticed me

edit 2: Romeo, you are a hero, but I'd like to know what MyImmortal
would do, since Malik could be considered her competitor on the field
of romance...
(as in: "I let Malik die... cause Jensen is MINE! HE'S MINE!!!! [maniac laughter])

Romeo
16th Sep 2011, 16:36
If you kill em fast enough, she'll live
If you don't kill em fast enough, she'll blow up
If you make it fast enough to the elevator, she'll get executed

managed all three options by now...

about that 5 hour speedthrough, I believe him.
Made it to the third boss-sequence in 6, shooting mostly everyone.
Shooting them takes time, speeding past them cloaked doesn't...
Just don't explore, know where you need to go and run...
And NO sidequests....

edit: With the elevator sequence, you do not need cloak,
just crouch along the right side of the area. Everyone is looking
at the helicopter, they never noticed me

edit 2: Romeo, you are a hero, but I'd like to know what MyImmortal
would do, since Malik could be considered her competitor on the field
of romance...
(as in: "I let Malik die... cause Jensen is MINE! HE'S MINE!!!! [maniac laughter])
Immortal's a total sweet heart. She'd totally save Malik.





...And then utterly ruin her career, just to prove a point. (Kidding Immortal! Don't kill me!)

imported_BoB_
16th Sep 2011, 16:39
So, what happens if you kill him earlier? Does another guard take his place?

Don't know, haven't tried it yet. I am doing a lethal run and I killed him in Alice Pods, but I'm only in Detroit (2nd time) at the moment. I suppose it just doesn't happen, and they blow up the helicopter like usual (well, when you fail I mean)
And she has a bullet in her head when you find her I think I have see that, but I don't know if it's the case when it doesn't happen.

(Whoa time flies o_O I was doing another thing while typing this message :D)

gyron
24th Sep 2011, 14:37
So, what happens if you kill him earlier? Does another guard take his place?

Normal guard executes her:
http://s1.postimage.org/pvv7ixtwo/DXHR_Malik_execution.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

Daedatheus
24th Sep 2011, 15:29
when your meant to save malik- put cloak on and dash to the elevator(well you dont even need cloak since this is a scripted alarmed sequence) you will witness them execute malik by a bullet to the head.

Wow. Did not know this at all. The game continues to deliver new things.

Even more surprising is that if you run from point A to point B all the way through, the game can be completed in 5 hours.

I'll be there are some players new to the franchise out there who did this on their first playthrough, I feel very sorry for them.