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:-D
10th Sep 2011, 02:07
I missed the reviews thread. I'm not looking for it, as there's far too many pins in here. The Point? Here's my response to a recent THIEF4 poll (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1681095&postcount=15) of DE:HR.

The gist of which said;


Am I getting old? Is this like a maths exam with a calculator provided, EM? I'm sorry, but I wasn't allowed calculators when I was in school..

Stiop corrupting the curriculum.

I never said I learned English. At any rate, this game seems very watered down, and is completely lacking in a challenge, from a stealth perspective. I do enjoy exploring, but I need the fear of exploration. Explorers weren't intrepid for nothing! If there is to be another DE:HR, the AI requires a complete routine overhaul. I want to be chased! I want to set up ambushes! I want to be free to do what we want to do! [/primalsreference]

At any rate, it's an 8 out of 10 for me, only because I'm comparing it with contemporary dross in the age of Unreal3.

Improve, EM. Improve . . . Oh, and if our phantom community manager, Kyle, wants to break off from his incessant twittering, and tweak the ears of RedVelouria (http://twitter.com/#!/RedVelouria) and DBed (http://twitter.com/#!/dbed) within the next six months, he is very welcome. We're very patient

OVER HERE (http://thief4.com)

and quite virtuous, as it happens. Anyhowsville, review your stealth experience, below! It's fareee!!

gyron
24th Sep 2011, 14:23
DXHR cover system review summed up in one image:
http://s1.postimage.org/bpa9rzbaj/DXHR_bad_cover.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)
(Pictured: cover magic transforms Adam into pixel-wide being)

drunkrussian9
24th Sep 2011, 15:11
I never used cover. Its a total immersion killer.

Cronicler
24th Sep 2011, 15:31
./sigh
no one denies that AI has blind spots (which is like Ayers is a little red rock in Australia) in general awareness coding and needs some more complex reactions (oh look, there are 2 soda machines in the middle of the room. How normal.)

however, there would be an even bigger and damaging (to the game's sales) reaction if the game had following scripts:

-Teams sound of via radio every 3x, 2x or x seconds (based on diff level) and if someone falls silent, some of the team (a large part) come to investigate while another others secure the exits.
-Certain teams have a "Mother" that monitors them from offsite, resulting in a much quicker and detailed reactions.
-Military enemies (Red spec ops, belltower wetworks operatives) fall into buddy team formations (or even worse fire-teams) after "alert" status is given and constantly check each other
-Patrols react to every disturbance (open door, open vents, moved crates and vending machines) by going to "alert" status, calling in help
-extended/permanent (normal/gmdx) status changes so once they go on alert, they don't stop random searches.
-trackers on military enemies that allows others to find them no once alarm is given.
-ability to hack into incapacitated enemiy's comm gear to disable tracers / eaves drop comms /disrupt comms/ receive info.
-enemies checking behind visual obstacles when alerted
-enemies able to enter ventilation shafts
-enemies laying mines to entrances on alert/hostile
-enemies with radar jammers (invisible on radar) lying in ambush in certain places
-mini turrets and more laser tripwires and traps in ventilation.




This is what a realistic responding AI. care to guess how many people would like playing against it?

gyron
24th Sep 2011, 15:53
Not many, but I definitely would.

All your suggestions are great but I wouldn't expect this sort of AI advancement from FPS/Stealth hybrid in a 10 years. We should probably wait for Splinter Cell 8 to develop this sort of system first, and then can only hope for Deus Ex 5 to clumsily ape it in year 2020 :)

Kodaemon
24th Sep 2011, 16:02
Metal Gear Solid 2 had elements of this 10 years ago...

I absolutely expected that first purist guy at Milwaukee Junction to periodically sound off, but no, you can even take him down before he stops talking, and no one bothers to check what happened. That was a moment of huge disappointment.

gyron
24th Sep 2011, 16:32
The hugest disappointment with stealth system is that it uses the same AI template for every enemy -- from retarded punk to elite super-soldier. It's the same reaction time, the same relaxed states, the same turning-180-degrees-in-the-middle-of-a-patrol-route. Game almost never tries to spice things using tools already at its disposal (the only exception being first mission at Picus, where guards are on perma-alert).

So if you master stealth on a first mission you should have no problems dealing with it later. Coming from Beta I've expected the game to crank up the difficulty as it went, but no -- stealth only got easier with all the augs, which enemies never knew how to counter. It's like if designers say to a player: "Oh, you bought Invisibility -- only 10 percent of players have the necessary brainpower to do that! Here is your ghost bonus."

sonicsidewinder
24th Sep 2011, 17:02
Hilarious image right there. xD

JCpies
24th Sep 2011, 19:20
Metal Gear Solid 2 had elements of this 10 years ago...

I absolutely expected that first purist guy at Milwaukee Junction to periodically sound off, but no, you can even take him down before he stops talking, and no one bothers to check what happened. That was a moment of huge disappointment.

Just pretend he was calling someone off-site. :o

Tverdyj
24th Sep 2011, 19:45
Cover system is unnecessary. First person works just fine.

also, bits and pieces of what you suggest, chronicler were implemented in Arkham Asylum (the locators on downed guards, for instance).
also, playing stealth on give me DX, vs playing stealth on normal, the enemy AI is a lot more alert. if on Normal, one guard would sneak a peek of you and go suspicious, and go to investigate, in give me DX, he'd alert all the guards in the vicinity.
mind you, they'd still charge one after another through the door, and all of them would go to revive a fallen friend, letting me tranq them from the corner one by one, but still.

Kodaemon
24th Sep 2011, 20:12
Just pretend he was calling someone off-site. :o

It's not just about that guy, though. I really expected the AI to be a bit more advanced and perceptive. The only cool thing HR introduced in this regard is the occasional looking back during patrolling, but it's both too predictable and inconsistent, as there are certain animations where the AI's turn their heads but their vision cones don't react accordingly.

EDIT: Also, I remember early previews stating AI would be organized into squads with leaders, and when you eliminated the leader, the squad's effectiveness would drop. I guess EM just eliminated all those squad leaders.

EDIT2: Another thing - one of the CG teasers showed Adam's smart vision aug displaying info about enemies, such as information about previous injuries. This is another wasted opportunity. Thief: Deadly Shadows for example did some rather clever things with this - for example, there was a one-eyed guard who actually had a narrower, asymetrical vision cone. A more common occurence were fat guards, who'd get tired more quickly when chasing you.

imported_BoB_
24th Sep 2011, 20:23
Like kud13 said, some of these ideas were implemented on Arkham Asylum, but I didn't think that it worked well personally. I mean, what's the point to go stealth if once you takedown a guard, there are all on alerts and know pretty much where you are.
We all know that realistic things are not always good in a videogame, and it would be one example of this IMHO. I really felt it on Arkham Asylum where you have less and less possibilities the more you advance in the game. At the beginning, you can takedown guards with stealth, after this, they have their collar and Joker warns them once you takedown one of them, and after this, you can't even go on the gargoyles anymore. It's just less and less funny actually.

Kodaemon
24th Sep 2011, 20:24
Like kud13 said, some of these ideas were implemented on Arkham Asylum, but I didn't think that it worked well personally. I mean, what's the point to go stealth if once you takedown a guard, there are all on alerts and know pretty much where you are.
We all know that realistic things are not always good in a videogame, and it would be one example of this IMHO.

You suck at Arkham Asylum.

MORE EDITS!: Speaking of AA, I really loved how the thugs would start freaking out when you started taking them down one by one. In a DX game, I'd imagine this would be the proper reaction for enemies like gang members, while it would work sort of opposite for trained soldier types: they'd get more organized and alert once they realised something was off.

imported_BoB_
24th Sep 2011, 20:27
No. I never told that it was difficult actually, just more closed off.

Kodaemon
24th Sep 2011, 20:31
No, you suck at Arkham Asylum. The part about enemies knowing where you are - thing is, you should already be somewhere else at that point.

gyron
24th Sep 2011, 20:32
What's you both arguing about?
Wasn't Arkham Asylum the easiest stealth game ever? It never mattered if you were detected or not.
Stealth moves were there only for 2 forced missions and challenges.

Kodaemon
24th Sep 2011, 20:35
That's because you were the goddamn Batman.

Pinky_Powers
24th Sep 2011, 22:01
That's because you were the goddamn Batman.

This.

You're Bat-man. Human. Not super-human. When fighting guys with guns, you need to be swift and shifty as the wind.

Stealth worked amazingly well in AA. :)

Cronicler
24th Sep 2011, 22:03
Kodaemon please be polite to other users, even if you totally disagree with their opinions.



kud13;
I never really felt that 3rd person cover was a bad choice. There are micro cams, hair cams and other gizmos that can give you a wide range view when you are behind an object, I just "assumed" that Jensen was using such finger cameras (directly wired to his optical input processor) to peek around stuff.

That said; the repeated 3rd person take-downs, melee kills, ladders and especially Icarus were irritating. I can accept cinematic take-downs for 2 tangos (even then I wish they were simpler, less flashy) as they do feel special (they don't really happen that often unless you abuse ai or act fast) but others were just too showy for my taste.





I would also play a very complex game but we have to face the hard cold fact of pc development. This is a brand new "sub-division", not a separate development house and they (probably) had to fight tooth and nail to implement most of the choices they made. They had to make the game more accessible and sell as many as they can if they are to make other games.
*And no, in this specific case, I do not think that more accessible equals dumbed down in this case. It is lighter and not as punishing as I would have liked but it is not dumb or mindless.





On a related tangent, just go and look at GreasedScotsman's zero takedown ghost run if you haven't yet. Can you imagine how hard would it be to implement such a perfect balance of enemy placement with the ai options listed above? And god help the poor guy who has to balance the "Alert" and "Hostile" status action routes to keep the player success a possibility.

ECM_specialist
24th Sep 2011, 22:08
.
-Teams sound of via radio every 3x, 2x or x seconds (based on diff level) and if someone falls silent, some of the team (a large part) come to investigate while another others secure the exits.
-Certain teams have a "Mother" that monitors them from offsite, resulting in a much quicker and detailed reactions.
-Military enemies (Red spec ops, belltower wetworks operatives) fall into buddy team formations (or even worse fire-teams) after "alert" status is given and constantly check each other
-Patrols react to every disturbance (open door, open vents, moved crates and vending machines) by going to "alert" status, calling in help
-extended/permanent (normal/gmdx) status changes so once they go on alert, they don't stop random searches.
-trackers on military enemies that allows others to find them no once alarm is given.
-ability to hack into incapacitated enemiy's comm gear to disable tracers / eaves drop comms /disrupt comms/ receive info.
-enemies checking behind visual obstacles when alerted
-enemies able to enter ventilation shafts
-enemies laying mines to entrances on alert/hostile
-enemies with radar jammers (invisible on radar) lying in ambush in certain places
-mini turrets and more laser tripwires and traps in ventilation.
This is what a realistic responding AI. care to guess how many people would like playing against it?
I would like :rolleyes: . Maybe, most of this can be implemented through modding, for one extra "realistic" difficulty setting :rolleyes: .
Just a couple of moments to this list:

1. -enemies with radar jammers (invisible on radar) lying in ambush in certain places -- for a number of reasons, this is not feasible from physics point of view :cool: . REAL radar jammer works in rather opposite fashion: it highlights the one who uses it, hiding other allies in its area of effect(pretty much like StarCraft Protoss Arbiter). A support unit initiating something like that if alerted would be interesting :).
2. -Enemies, which are able to see right through your cloak. Jensen CAN actually do that, and with rather low energy consumption, why augmented SpecOp on guard duty couldn't? This would slightly nerfed Cloak and made game interesting.
3. -Health monitor on every Military enemy. If killed, it is instant ALARM. Nowadays such a piece of equipment would be <50$ to manufacture, guess in future it would be mandatory for every soldier :cool: .

Hmm, alright, stop pointless dreaming, any1 knows of any way to mod DX:HR on script level to introduce at least some of the moments? I haven't found any. And I doubt game developers would pay real attention to us and implement it.

Iron and Copper
24th Sep 2011, 22:38
EDIT: Also, I remember early previews stating AI would be organized into squads with leaders, and when you eliminated the leader, the squad's effectiveness would drop. I guess EM just eliminated all those squad leaders.

EDIT2: Another thing - one of the CG teasers showed Adam's smart vision aug displaying info about enemies, such as information about previous injuries. This is another wasted opportunity.

I remember that thing about the units as well, can't find reference to it any more, would have been good to see the AI use their augs to good advantage, like the invisible guys should actually advance on you and not fire to give them away, you should be taken down just like you do to them if he gets close enough. The heavy's should use cover, like crates for their team. Gas grenades for the masked soldiers and they could then advance into the cloud too, be a great chess game then, Mean the smart vision could have the added effect of indicating such augs and inform you of the best course to take.

Honestly MGS2 had this stuff down, it escalated the difficulty well and varied the enemies. Radio equipped enemies, radio check ins, riot shield enemies, sweep teams, armoured units etc. Would have been fabulous to see similar behaviours. I hate the auto alert thing, if you are spotted by one AI people come from all over without even a peep from the one who saw you necessary to give away your exact location.

Kodaemon
25th Sep 2011, 05:14
Yeah, psychic enemies are another letdown. Really, the stealth AI in this game is below Thief 1 levels, and just barely above DX.

KenTWOu
25th Sep 2011, 18:23
No, you suck at Arkham Asylum. The part about enemies knowing where you are - thing is, you should already be somewhere else at that point.
You can do it in Batman:AA because you always have total win button which leads you to gargoyles. DE:HR obviously doesn't have such cheating game mechanics.


Metal Gear Solid 2 had elements of this 10 years ago...
MGS has infinite reinforcements after alerts and endless respawn when you re-entering on every level. It's infinite experience points from DE:HR RPG point of view! So again, it's nearly mpossible to make the same thing in DE:HR because of game balance. Also Adam can't hide literally everywhere like Snake inside the box which carries that box right in his pockets. And again it's like cheating.

Kodaemon
25th Sep 2011, 18:43
DX:HR and balance? Don't make me laugh. The game would have been much better if it didn't dish out XP for every little thing you do, including taking down enemies.

Also, Adam can hide pretty much anywhere. Boxes play a part in this. In MGS, the guards would at least occasionally investigate a box that wasn't there a few seconds ago.

gyron
25th Sep 2011, 18:52
DE:HR obviously doesn't have such cheating game mechanics.

Adam has cloak. It's DXHR equivalent of WIN button, if you don't restraint yourself.
Look at what it does: conceals from enemies, conceals from bots, conceals from cameras, enables getting through lasers. All in one button press. 90% of game's stealth is based on visibility and you have the ultimate tool from the start to beat every challenge it throws at you. Not an example of good design.

And how is it not cheating when you can turn it on and run from one end of the level to the other, alert every guard and still be considered stealthy by game?

KenTWOu
25th Sep 2011, 18:55
DX:HR and balance? Don't make me laugh.
Yeah, it has balance, MGS doesn't have it at all because of cheating boxes.


Also, Adam can hide pretty much anywhere.
No, it's Snake can hide pretty much anywhere because of pocket boxes. Adam can hide only behind covers. Every level has limited amount of covers. So...


In MGS, the guards would at least occasionally investigate a box that wasn't there a few seconds ago.
Sorry, but I didn't notice it while I played MGS and MGS2. If you use your box in the corner of the room and stay still they never notice you. That's what I remember. They spot you only if you move in the box right infront of them.



Adam has cloak. It's DXHR equivalent of WIN button...
No it's not, because it uses energy bars! And because you can ghost almost through whole game without it! I already did it!

JCpies
25th Sep 2011, 18:56
f
Adam has cloak. It's DXHR equivalent of WIN button, if you don't restraint yourself.
Look at what it does: conceals from enemies, conceals from bots, conceals from cameras, enables getting through lasers. All in one button press. 90% of game's stealth is based on visibility and you have the ultimate tool from the start to beat every challenge it throws at you. Not an example of good design.

And how is it not cheating when you can turn it on and run from one end of the level to the other, alert every guard and still be considered stealthy by game?

Yes, because you can permanently stay in cloak for 10 - 20 minutes straight.

imported_BoB_
25th Sep 2011, 19:01
A cloak for 3 to 7 seconds, a win button indeed :rolleyes: (and you can't even do a takedown while cloaking without energy bars)

Kodaemon
25th Sep 2011, 19:01
[Every level has boxes. So you can make cover anywhere. And the enemy doesn't notice unless he sees you moving the box. Even if you drop the box two centimeters behind them and they turn around, they won't notice anything strange.

Really though, are you trolling with the boxes in MGS? They're nowhere near as game-breaking as you make them out to be.

gyron
25th Sep 2011, 19:02
Yes, because you can permanently stay in cloak for 10 - 20 minutes straight.

Example 1: get through the TYM server room
Solution: turn on the cloak, run straight to the lift, get Ghost.
Time taken: 6 seconds.
Energy used: 0 cells

Example 2: escape from Penthouse ambush.
Solution: jump down, turn on the cloak, run straight to the lift, get Ghost.
Time taken: 10 seconds.
Energy used: 1 cell

KenTWOu
25th Sep 2011, 19:08
Really though, are you trolling with the boxes in MGS?
Yeah, of course, I'm trolling because you don't see gigantic difference between hiding inside the box which you can take from inventory in every moment and hiding behind the box which you should find on the level and carry it in your hands.



Example 1: get through the TYM server room...
Example 2: escape from Penthouse ambush.
Yes, It gives you certain advantages but still it's not a win button! You should jump, you should run, you should look at your energy bar, you should plan your movement. And the most important part you can beat both examples without invisibility!

imported_BoB_
25th Sep 2011, 19:08
And, what does it proof exactly?
RPG is about exploration as far as I'm aware. Besides, there was the same aug in Deus Ex, and no one ever called it gamebreaking...

Kodaemon
25th Sep 2011, 19:11
We're getting sidetracked here.

Fact: MGS2 (2001) enemy AI and interaction is better than DX:HR (2011) enemy AI and interaction.

gyron
25th Sep 2011, 19:16
And, what does it proof exactly? ...besides, there was the same aug in Deus Ex, and no one ever called it gamebreaking...
I will call it stealth-breaker and lame design. It was less crappy in DX1 because levels were much bigger and encounters more frequent. Invisibility also branched either in anti-electronics or anti-human variants.


RPG is about exploration
It's about what you want it to be. And if I want DXHR to be a stealth game, it doesn't give me any challenge in return -- unless I artificially restrain myself.

JCpies
25th Sep 2011, 19:19
It's about what you want it to be. And if I want DXHR to be a stealth game, it doesn't give me any challenge in return -- unless I artificially restrain myself.

Put points into the stealth augmentation tree... Is the cloak really too tempting for you not to ignore it?

imported_BoB_
25th Sep 2011, 19:20
So you're saying that the game is too easy if you use an aug to make the game easier.

Yeah, go figures...

You said it yourself, the player can choose what he wants, the cloak aug isn't necessarily aimed at you. You know that some people aren't actually borned with gamepad in their hands, right?
Cloak aug is gamebreaking if you use it to go only straight, and with no exploring at all. Yeah sure.

KenTWOu
25th Sep 2011, 19:26
Fact: MGS2 enemy AI and interaction is better than DX:HR enemy AI and interaction.
Because the game has different design decisions, different rules. Because Snake has different options! Because if you make a mistake you could hide from reinforcements inside the box almost everywhere! And MGS2 wasn't very hard because of that. It's balance! That's the point!

Cronicler allready said earlier that realistic responding AI isn't fun! It's fun like SWAT simulator (i.e. SWAT4) but it's not fun like a stealth game. Even Ubisoft developers know that, that's why they chose another direction after Splinter Cell:Chaos Theory and didn't make Chaos Theory 2 instead.



I will call it stealth-breaker and lame design.
It will be stealth-breaker only if you can't beat the game without it! But you can ghost through every main mission even through Panchea without invisibility! You can even beat the game without radar, cause almost every door has little window in it. So DE:HR is an example of great stealth level desigh! It's much better than Splinter Cell: Conviction and Batman:AA.

gyron
25th Sep 2011, 19:27
You know that some people aren't actually borned with gamepad in their hands, right?
I'm a hardcore stealth veteran and I don't give a damn about crappy players.


Cloak aug is gamebreaking if you use it to go only straight, and with no exploring at all. Yeah sure.
I'm glad you saw my point ;)

imported_BoB_
25th Sep 2011, 19:29
An hardcore stealth veteran that would use an aug cloak. That makes sense :D

And just for your information, the cloak augs of Deus Ex weren't really one or the other. There were 3 canisters of the cloak aug through the game.

Kodaemon
25th Sep 2011, 19:31
Because the game has different design decisions, different rules. Because Snake has different options! Because if you make a mistake you could hide from reinforcements inside the box almost everywhere! And MGS2 wasn't very hard because of that. It's balance! That's the point!

Again: balance does not exist in DX:HR


Cronicler allready said earlier that realistic responding AI isn't fun! It's fun like SWAT simulator (i.e. SWAT4) but it's not fun like a stealth game. Even Ubisoft developers know that, that's why they chose another direction after Splinter Cell:Chaos Theory and didn't make Chaos Theory 2 instead.

Ah, ok, this cements it: we will never come to an agreement then. (You do know that Chaos Theory is widely regarded as the highpoint of the series, after which it went to ****, right?)

gyron
25th Sep 2011, 19:37
An hardcore stealth veteran that would use an aug cloak. That makes sense :D

Man, you're playing dumb on purpose or what?

I finished the game with no augs AND no items and still found it easy.
My objection here is that there shouldn't be any more game-breaking elements than there already is, so I don't have to make non-optimal decisions (like not taking cloak) to feel challenged.


And just for your information, the cloak augs of Deus Ex weren't really one or the other. There were 3 canisters of the cloak aug through the game.
You can install only one variant of the aug and can't change it later so other 2 canisters are useless.

imported_BoB_
25th Sep 2011, 19:43
There was two slots for subdermal augs actually.

Yeah, I'm playing dumb, my sentence about the cloak being gamebreaking, if you're going straigh with no exploring above, was sarcasm (maybe because it's completely dumb, who knows...)



I finished the game with no augs AND no items and still found it easy.


Yeah but you're an hardcore stealth veteran, you're too powerful (it's sarcasm again)

gyron
25th Sep 2011, 19:46
There was two slots for subdermal augs actually.
...which accept only ONE type of particular aug. You can't have both radar transparency and invisbility in DX1.
And even then you get it 2/3 in the game, after you spend a lot of time avoiding enemies, bots, cameras and lasers on your own.
Not in a first hub, like in DXHR.

KenTWOu
25th Sep 2011, 19:52
Ah, ok, this cements it: we will never come to an agreement then. (You do know that Chaos Theory is widely regarded as the highpoint of the series, after which it went to ****, right?)
As I said before, realistic responding AI isn't fun for stealth! Because realistic AI theoretically breaks stealth in real life! Cronicler already said this. You know, guards in Thief games don't have GPS, walkie-talkie, cellular phones. That's why every thief game looks very believable like a stealth game. But modern guards have all kinds of gadgets!

That's why I guess it's impossible to do great stealth game with realistic AI behaviour because it's very fast became shooter after every mistake made by player. After every mistake it will be a game over. That's why Ubisoft Montreal try to change gameplay formula! That's why Conviction has another very fast agressive stealth. Yeah, Conviction has pretty good fast aggresive stealth! That's why DE:HR also has aggressive stealth which mentioned in this article (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/08/25/dxhr-violent-vs-non-violent-approaches/) (but it has classic stealth too, that's why it's much better).

I think, if it will be possible to do realistic AI behaviour in stealth game, mod makers or indie developers already did this twice! But they didn't! Nobody did it because it's impossible or not fun or too complex task.

ECM_specialist
26th Sep 2011, 17:45
Example 2: escape from Penthouse ambush.
Solution: jump down, turn on the cloak, run straight to the lift, get Ghost.
Time taken: 10 seconds.
Energy used: 1 cell
My solution: on entering the Penthouse I placed 2 Gas Mines. Just in case, to lessen interference me while I deal with Zhen. After cutscene I can just jump down, and run to elevator in about 9 secs :cool:. No augs :cool:. A lot of exp and Ghost achievement. ALL SOLDIERS -- NON-LETHAL TAKEDOWN.
And a little damage from residual gas, if too impatient and don't have lung augmented, though :rolleyes:.
Used: two mine templates and two gas grenades.

There is question, what is more awkward: power of stealth so no one can detect you? Or maybe soldiers in complex expensive future high-tech helmets, who use gas grenades in attack, but vulnerable to gas themselves :lol:? No one of these two points doesn't really make sense :rolleyes: . There is way to go in this game for realism. I just hope developers will fix some...

imported_BoB_
26th Sep 2011, 17:59
You can pick a mine template behind a couch, and knock down 9 of the ten guards (maybe 10 but I wasn't able to) with only one mine, and when the last guy go wake up a body, you take him down.

ECM_specialist
26th Sep 2011, 22:18
Whatever. I think, you got my point. It isn't about quantity of stealth features, it's about realism. When you see enemy behaviour, which is in sharp contradiction to what we call "common sense", it just breaks immersion. It's subconsciously irritating and calling negative emotions, if for some reason we just cannot perceive it with humor ;) .

For example: why for the god's sake EMP grenade is "quiet" weapon? It creates gigantic electromagnetic pulse, momentary power should be exceeding megawatt transmitter. And it should be easily detectable with simplest radio receiver on range over 10km. Logically, one EMP blast should alert the whole level :). But no, it stealthily disables a camera, augmented guard within less than 10m doesn't even twitch :) .

And its actually 90% of the reasons behind complains about stealth in DX:HR.

In DX1 the same quality of stealth system wouldn't be complained, because such AI "quality" was in harmony with "quality" of game graphics. But from game with DX:HR graphics we await more advanced AI. It's actually all can be done with a little bit of modding and programming. But... we'll see.

gyron
27th Sep 2011, 02:56
My solution: on entering the Penthouse I placed 2 Gas Mines. Just in case, to lessen interference me while I deal with Zhen. After cutscene I can just jump down, and run to elevator in about 9 secs :cool:. No augs :cool:. A lot of exp and Ghost achievement. ALL SOLDIERS -- NON-LETHAL TAKEDOWN.
And a little damage from residual gas, if too impatient and don't have lung augmented, though :rolleyes:.
Used: two mine templates and two gas grenades.
Like this?
http://s3.postimage.org/nil69o9yg/DXHR_Penthouse_Gas_Trap.jpg

Sure, this will make short work of them, but you will spoil one of the Ghost ratings, which you can get if you've sneaked unnoticed to Zhao's room. You'll get only the second Ghost, after you use the lift. Because, as a general rule, if soldiers see an exploding mine or one of their buddies knocked out (which will happen here), you lose Ghost.


There is question, what is more awkward: power of stealth so no one can detect you? Or maybe soldiers in complex expensive future high-tech helmets, who use gas grenades in attack, but vulnerable to gas themselves :lol:? No one of these two points doesn't really make sense :rolleyes: . There is way to go in this game for realism. I just hope developers will fix some...
At least they are invulnerable to damage from their own grenades! Saves them from further embarrassment. I remember doing no-kill run on Crysis 2, and in the only place where you have to kill human soldiers they just throw grenades under their own feet and die like idiots.