PDA

View Full Version : What mods would you like to see?



Herbert Dashwood
6th Sep 2011, 18:00
I think a mod where you play as the old Adam, before he got augmented would be cool. It'd be nice to play as thhe human version of him (with augmentation abilities)

What ideas do you guys have?

Pulseczar
6th Sep 2011, 18:24
Well, for a start, it would be nice just to have access to cheat codes and stuff. Would be cool to just blast through the game with the sniper rifle or something.

Kodaemon
6th Sep 2011, 18:29
DX1-style experience mod: experience awarded only for completing objectives and exploration. Should be simple enough for someone to create even now.

guillaume.oudin
6th Sep 2011, 18:49
Definitely an AI-enhancement mod : if it is possible to alter the alarm system and/or randomize the patrols route, it would be a hell of a good mod.

Ludogator
6th Sep 2011, 22:22
DX1 experience mod ;p involving:
- meelee weapons,
- lockpicks,
- medbots,
- yellow engineering bots,
- more interesting weapon mods like a scope for pistol,
- improved crossbow (can be merged with transqualizer gun, so one weapon uses both dart types),
- ammo stocking in one slot of inventory, or without taking place like in the first game,
- more types of ammo for weapons.
- skill system independent of augs
- better augs (maybe it is just me, but they feel like they were made randomly just to fit two things - augs and skills into one skin), without some strange ideas like running dependant only on lungs
- books!
- permanent first person view (+ takedowns without boring animation)
- hacking while crouching or hiding (impossible in the new game. Guy is standing like a secretary in front of hacked computer of terminal, which makes him visible and available to shoot out)

Pulseczar
6th Sep 2011, 22:49
- permanent first person view (+ takedowns without boring animation)

I don't think you can have takedown animations that are not boring while remaining in first-person view. You would not be able to see what's going on very well if it stayed in first person. I don't like how it goes to third person though for ladders. The current cover system would not work with 1st person though. You'd have to do the old lean mechanic instead, which I'd only like if you could just use your left and right movement keys for leaning, enabling lean with another key (either a hold or toggle).

PalladiumGM
6th Sep 2011, 22:53
The ability to remove weapon upgrades is my number 1 mod wish. I don't always want explosive rounds in my revolver or a silencer on my 10mm.

After first use it should become bound to the weapon type though. So if you put a silencer on a 10mm and then took it off it could only go on another 10mm and not a combat rifle or machine pistol.

unbeatableDX
7th Sep 2011, 01:19
SDK announced?
$hit loadsa soldiers, bots, and traps in panchea! also more enemies added throughout the game too. more quests added (maybe one with transgenics escaped from thier cages at a lab). all xp halved (or requires 10,000xp to level up). multitools added in and are required to start a hack. plasma rifle + ammo added in earlier into the game. a couple more unique weapon mods added, perhaps conflicting ones too so you have to choose. upgrade range mod available on some weapons-

ULTIMATE MOD FOR LETHAL PLAYERS!!! please, somebody???

unbeatableDX
7th Sep 2011, 01:25
DX1 experience mod ;p involving:
- meelee weapons,
- lockpicks,
- medbots,
- yellow engineering bots,
- more interesting weapon mods like a scope for pistol,
- improved crossbow (can be merged with transqualizer gun, so one weapon uses both dart types),
- ammo stocking in one slot of inventory, or without taking place like in the first game,
- more types of ammo for weapons.
- skill system independent of augs
- better augs (maybe it is just me, but they feel like they were made randomly just to fit two things - augs and skills into one skin), without some strange ideas like running dependant only on lungs
- books!
- permanent first person view (+ takedowns without boring animation)
- hacking while crouching or hiding (impossible in the new game. Guy is standing like a secretary in front of hacked computer of terminal, which makes him visible and available to shoot out)

this mod would be great too! i approve, although would it be worth adding all that into this game, since it is rather short.

jtr7
7th Sep 2011, 02:38
I don't think you can have takedown animations that are not boring while remaining in first-person view. You would not be able to see what's going on very well if it stayed in first person. I don't like how it goes to third person though for ladders. The current cover system would not work with 1st person though. You'd have to do the old lean mechanic instead, which I'd only like if you could just use your left and right movement keys for leaning, enabling lean with another key (either a hold or toggle).

Better to have "boring" 1st-Person takedowns/melee, than no 1st-Person takedowns/melee. We want it and always have.
Better to have 1st-Person lean-keys and tension than a cover system at all.
The FPS players have been cut out of the game, not having classic options, and having no hand-to-hand/melee at all without camera-switching.

I await the modders' word on how possible it will be to hack any aspect of a full FPS experience in so we can enjoy basic gameplay.

unbeatableDX
7th Sep 2011, 02:46
Better to have "boring" 1st-Person takedowns/melee, than no 1st-Person takedowns/melee. We want it and always have.
Better to have 1st-Person lean-keys and tension than a cover system at all.
The FPS players have been cut out of the game, not having classic options, and having no hand-to-hand/melee at all without camera-switching.

I await the modders' word on how possible it will be to hack any aspect of a full FPS experience in so we can enjoy basic gameplay.

so you want iron sights removed too?

Pulseczar
7th Sep 2011, 04:07
so you want iron sights removed too?

He's asking for removal of all 3rd person views. Iron sights are 1st person.

unbeatableDX
7th Sep 2011, 04:15
He's asking for removal of all 3rd person views. Iron sights are 1st person.

obviously. i assumed he was one of those people who hate on iron sights too. dont know why, ignore that post.

Ludogator
7th Sep 2011, 07:32
I don't think you can have takedown animations that are not boring while remaining in first-person view. You would not be able to see what's going on very well if it stayed in first person. I don't like how it goes to third person though for ladders. The current cover system would not work with 1st person though. You'd have to do the old lean mechanic instead, which I'd only like if you could just use your left and right movement keys for leaning, enabling lean with another key (either a hold or toggle).

I'm curious how is that cover system wouldn't work in the first person. Changing only the camera with keeping the rest "as is" would work quite well.

You go to cover -> you can walk along it using your movement keys (cover sticks you to the wall, so even if you are using the key while). When you are next to a corner, you press the jump key to go across it, or just keep a movement key holding to lean.

Only difference is that you can not see anything outside your viewing range, and through obstracles. It would make the game harder, but more enjoyable.


And about taking down - original system present in the first game gives you the ability to sneak in a proper moment, and quickly and silently take an enemy down. This works well instead of some long, suspended-in-time actions, which the player see dozens of times while playing. I can live without those cinematics, and doing takedowns with meelee weapons in real time would be great. Maybe I'd add one thing - the sleeper hold as a takedown while walking without a weapon, but still in fps, and only when an enemy is attacked from behind.


About iron sights - I don't like how my weapon upgraded with a laser doesn't give me an option to use it in this mode. I'd add an option to change sights like it was in crysis - scopes, collimators, but all as upgrades for weapons.

Romeo
7th Sep 2011, 07:59
First things first: The original poster has a brilliant idea. A mod of either Jensen (Or anyone) without augs sounds AWESOME. No health regen, no HUD, no advantages. It'd be an incredibly unique experience.

I'd also like to see a noisemaker grenade. When done by grenade, makes a single sound that can attract guards to the point. When done by mine, makes a constant noise that attracts guards to it's area.

Pulseczar
7th Sep 2011, 14:46
I'm curious how is that cover system wouldn't work in the first person. Changing only the camera with keeping the rest "as is" would work quite well.

You go to cover -> you can walk along it using your movement keys (cover sticks you to the wall, so even if you are using the key while). When you are next to a corner, you press the jump key to go across it, or just keep a movement key holding to lean.

Only difference is that you can not see anything outside your viewing range, and through obstracles. It would make the game harder, but more enjoyable.

The cover system would work in 1st person but it would feel very awkward, and I think most people would be asking why they didn't just go with a lean system if they wanted you to be able to peek from behind walls and shoot. The whole mechanic of being able to see how well you are hidden while covering would be lost. People would be saying "just let me crouch and lean".

Kodaemon
7th Sep 2011, 14:50
We're saying that anyway, so...

Chromie
7th Sep 2011, 15:06
The cover system would work in 1st person but it would feel very awkward.

Not necessarily look at Prey 2. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ey4Vtve2iI&t=3m35s) First person view with cover.

Pulseczar
7th Sep 2011, 15:24
Not necessarily look at Prey 2. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ey4Vtve2iI&t=3m35s) First person view with cover.

All I saw there was basically crouching. Didn't see any peeking from the side of walls.

unbeatableDX
7th Sep 2011, 18:00
Far cry 3 or crysis 2 is a better example of 1st person cover

Fidelius27
7th Sep 2011, 20:33
So im replaying the game (for the douchebag-action gameplay) and i found quite easy to make a no-aug mod just by making Jensen as human as the start of the game. If thats even remotely possible with the SDK.

Fluffis
7th Sep 2011, 20:50
Far cry 3 or crysis 2 is a better example of 1st person cover

I second this. Crysis 2 did first person cover very well. It's more or less just a slightly more advanced form of "lean". You're not stuck to the wall, and you can look over as well as around the sides, when applicable.

A hugely important mod to add, imo: Get rid of the current Icarus mod! Or at least change it to something less ostentatious and, for the love of all that's holy, remove the damn cutscene!

Edit: Actually, remove ALL the cutscenes, and replace them with game-engine cutscenes for the "exposition" scenes. No cutscenes needed for combat. Ever.

WildcatPhoenix
7th Sep 2011, 20:54
The Lean Key Project
Deus Ex: Crowbar Revolution

Just a start.

Romeo
7th Sep 2011, 22:15
I agree with the fellow who said "get rid of all combat cutscenes". Time shouldn't stop while I beat someone senseless, or fall from a great height. Nor do I need to see my character doing that (It was tolerable exactly one time. I don't need to see it every time I do that activity, which tends to be quite often).

Melee and first-person Icarus would be nice. Possibly a bayonet attatchment to choose between knockout or lethal when using melee.

sfPuck
7th Sep 2011, 22:56
I'd like to see a radar that is large enough to be useful without me having to lower my screen resolution. 24" screen and my radar is just a mass of white splotches in a box almost an inch tall. Nearly useless.

Stacking grenades. Though I'm sure that is considered a "cheat".

Romeo
7th Sep 2011, 23:19
I'd like to see a radar that is large enough to be useful without me having to lower my screen resolution. 24" screen and my radar is just a mass of white splotches in a box almost an inch tall. Nearly useless.

Stacking grenades. Though I'm sure that is considered a "cheat".
Adjustable Radar perhaps. I know on my plasma, my radar shows up just fine (Granted, my resolution is slightly lower, simply for performance reasons).

sfPuck
7th Sep 2011, 23:34
I'm certain this is a cheat, but I would love a mod that kept recharging till all my batteries were full.

Jason Parker
8th Sep 2011, 08:10
I'd like to see the aforementioned AI improval. Random Patrol Routes would be a cool start. But I'd also like them to react to changes of the environment mor realistically. So far they only react to opening doors when they actually see them being opened also they only react to smashed walls when hearing or seeing them being smashed.

What should be added is reaction to any kind of environmental change including moved boxes/turrets disabled cameras and hacked door pads. I'd also like the number of guards in a level during alarms to be increased.

guillaume.oudin
8th Sep 2011, 08:54
Speaking of mods, do we know for sure if a SDK will be released and possibly when ?

It's maybe not their priority. If they give away such a tool they will loose a lot of control on the product and I'm not sure they are prepared to do that if they have DLCs and expansions planned.

Robin_G
8th Sep 2011, 09:13
In order to avoid trial and error the best mod would be something like this:

The player will lose -100 experience points for every game he load.

Very simple, but regretfully I don't have enough skill to do that.

Jason Parker
8th Sep 2011, 22:56
Just had another idea for a worthwhile modification: Add the possibility to kick in doors using the wall punsh. Would be very helpful on a lethal combat only playthrough using as little hacking as possible.

unbeatableDX
8th Sep 2011, 23:11
In order to avoid trial and error the best mod would be something like this:

The player will lose -100 experience points for every game he load.

Very simple, but regretfully I don't have enough skill to do that.

INCREDIBLE! that should already be in the game.
ya know what the biggest insult in gaming history was? those ******* vita chambers in bioshock. irrational WTF!?
deus ex:HR is a much better game than bioshock, and for that i should be thankful. dx1 is still GOTYAY tho

Romeo
8th Sep 2011, 23:53
INCREDIBLE! that should already be in the game.
ya know what the biggest insult in gaming history was? those ******* vita chambers in bioshock. irrational WTF!?
deus ex:HR is a much better game than bioshock, and for that i should be thankful. dx1 is still GOTYAY tho
I'm not sure it should "already be in the game". It'd be frustrating as hell. And no, DX1 didn't punish you for loading...

Vita-chambers were pretty damn awful though.

Robin_G
9th Sep 2011, 08:04
I'm not sure it should "already be in the game". It'd be frustrating as hell. And no, DX1 didn't punish you for loading...

Vita-chambers were pretty damn awful though.

Ok, let's do an exception during boss battles.
Suposing we load 150 times all over the game loosing -100 experience points for each load; that means 15000 points overall. Barely three packages of praxis. That not seems to me frustrating. It's a cheap price for avoid (or minimize) "free" load games just after an alarm is on.

You said BioShock vitachambers were pretty damn awful, but I supose you don't think the same thing about reconstruction chambers in System Shock 2. ;)

unbeatableDX
9th Sep 2011, 08:11
You said BioShock vitachambers were pretty damn awful, but I supose you don't think the same thing about reconstruction chambers in System Shock 2. ;)

they were great! you had to activate them first, and they took nanites to reconstruct you.

Krankor
9th Sep 2011, 13:16
I want a mod that adds an 'escape' choice to the Panchera Endings.
(basically self-destruct but you have to run all the way back to the dock before the place sinks)
Part of this I'd like to have the option to save one of the Hyron pod girls, adding more difficulty in the escape because it will slow you down.

I'd like a mod that adds an 'EVIL' ending where you hook yourself up to Hyron and take control of everyone that is augmented!!!!1!11 MUA HA HA HA HA HA!1

A mod that Doubles or Triples the number of guards, (or at least stocked barracks with many soldiers that get mobilized when a certain number of guards go missing).

A mod that adds more robots or makes them more threatening... There's not enough robots and the ones that are around are too easy to knock out. Maybe flying mini-chopper robots?

A mod that adds at least a hundred npc's in China... The streets should be crowded with poor people in lower heng-shai.

Finally and most importantly... A mod that FIXES STUTTER!!!!!

Romeo
9th Sep 2011, 15:59
Ok, let's do an exception during boss battles.
Suposing we load 150 times all over the game loosing -100 experience points for each load; that means 15000 points overall. Barely three packages of praxis. That not seems to me frustrating. It's a cheap price for avoid (or minimize) "free" load games just after an alarm is on.

You said BioShock vitachambers were pretty damn awful, but I supose you don't think the same thing about reconstruction chambers in System Shock 2. ;)
Still completely unnecessary, I can't imagine it improving the game in any way. If you think loading save games often is a cheap tactic... Dont?

System Shock's system (Wooooaahhhh) at least had consequences for the action. BioShock's was "throw your body at the enemy as many times as you like without thinking, until you whittle them down enough to simply win by attrition".

I want a mod that adds an 'escape' choice to the Panchera Endings.
(basically self-destruct but you have to run all the way back to the dock before the place sinks)
Part of this I'd like to have the option to save one of the Hyron pod girls, adding more difficulty in the escape because it will slow you down.

I'd like a mod that adds an 'EVIL' ending where you hook yourself up to Hyron and take control of everyone that is augmented!!!!1!11 MUA HA HA HA HA HA!1

A mod that Doubles or Triples the number of guards, (or at least stocked barracks with many soldiers that get mobilized when a certain number of guards go missing).

A mod that adds more robots or makes them more threatening... There's not enough robots and the ones that are around are too easy to knock out. Maybe flying mini-chopper robots?

A mod that adds at least a hundred npc's in China... The streets should be crowded with poor people in lower heng-shai.

Finally and most importantly... A mod that FIXES STUTTER!!!!!
Saving the Hyron girls was something I wanted to be able to do as well, and would've made for a really interesting experience. I still say if you blow Panchaea though, you should have to accept the consequences, namely: Dying. That's the entire point of that ending!

A new ending with the Hyron would be sweet though, yeah.

CryHavok
11th Sep 2011, 02:21
First off, the community needs a proper and reliable set of modding utilities, preferably an official SDK ( like the original Deus Ex had ). Otherwise many of the good ideas presented here would be difficult, if not impossible, to realize.

That said, I'd like to see a mod which simply increases Adam Jensen's sprinting speed/endurance, which presently, even with the Cybernetic Leg Prosthesis and Implanted Rebreather Augs maxed out is absolutely pathetic.

Romeo
11th Sep 2011, 06:30
Consider the context... Jensen is sprinting at a ridiculous clip (You try matching his speed) for about the same length as most people can sprint (Not just run fast) for. He's also doing this while holding a weapon in his hands, and all the ammo/stuff he has on him. It is completely logical.

mazuma
11th Sep 2011, 06:52
A simple mod that increases not only the radar but allso the subtitles would be nice.

Since i have a 25 inch monitor sometimes i like to sit and play from my "lazy chair" wich sits 2/3 meters away
but the subs are to damn small for me to read at that distance : p

I have noticed that the subs on the console are much bigger would like the same size for the pc version.

unbeatableDX
11th Sep 2011, 06:55
"lazy chair" .

i use the term THRONE for mine
hail to the king :cool:

Krankor
11th Sep 2011, 21:26
I still say if you blow Panchaea though, you should have to accept the consequences, namely: Dying. That's the entire point of that ending!

I'm still not sure, I understand what you mean, but it just doesn't fit with the rest of the game at all.

Suppose you spent the whole game killing people and using lethal weapons, blowing up Panchaea 'might' fit but by then we're assuming that the 'Jensen' you're playing doesn't care about other humans / humanity (especially if you kill the zombies). He's out for revenge or taking care of himself.

This ending gets even worse if you're playing like 'Mohanda freaking Gandhi'. First you spend extra time and effort putting ALL the zombies to sleep (because you know once the transmission is off they go back to normal, kinda like the South Park episode with the Worcestershire sauce zombies). Blowing it all up defeats that purpose and makes the whole game seem like a waste (all you've done is delay Bob Page anyway).


<<<I have an idea that would satisfy you.>>>
Suppose you want to free the Hyron girls, but if they get unplugged Panchaea will collapse. Jensen can hook himself into Hyron in THEIR place, allowing them to escape, THEN the whole place collapses after they get to safety!
(Eliza could help relay some communications for the evacuation, then say something sweet about Jensen's "selflessness")
'Ghandi' *check*
'Dying' *check*
'Sacrifice' *check*
'Second Chance' *Double Check*

Alternatively, you can leave them there to give you time to escape, satisfying a kinda 'selfish' ending
'Lethal' *check*
'don't care about others' *check*


This just makes me want SDK tools even more.... If they release them I'll make something like this.

breakdown234
11th Sep 2011, 21:57
replacing all 3rd person with first person animations ala mirrors edge

that would already make me quite happy , but of course a high rez texture pack is a must too, dont get me started on the npcs -.-'

p.s: and perhaps increase the size of pda´s

i play this from my couch on my 50 inch screen and still i have a hard time reading the damn tiny text on this tiny pda hell who knows what they was thinking -.-'

and be able to see your own body like legs etc and see your hand grabbing an enemy when you drag him not having the dead enemy being pulled by thin air , dont get me started on missing blood and gore ...oh boy

alans056
11th Sep 2011, 22:06
Limited time for answering during dialogues.

If you take too long, the character would take your silence for an answer.

Arbie
12th Sep 2011, 06:13
Sorry if I repeat anything previously wrote:
First person cover/takedowns, to see what it's like.
Able to be damaged in 'action' cutscenes (typhoon, takedown etc)
XP from
Start with no augmentations (Personally radar made the stealth far too easy)
10mm pistol armoured piercing nerf
No re-charging first battery
Energy items given more often as random loot to make up for the above
More sneakers in Detroit1 FEMA and China1 Tai Yong
Orges having a quicker typhoon attack
Model swapping
Custom UI
Maps (I really want a simple one where you fight Yelena, Namir and Barrett in the same room. Cluster ****!)
Texture mods
Making the final areas harder, more automated defence systems?
Augmentations to replace 'useless' augmentations such as radar upgrades

Kodaemon
12th Sep 2011, 06:24
<<<I have an idea that would satisfy you.>>>
Suppose you want to free the Hyron girls, but if they get unplugged Panchaea will collapse. Jensen can hook himself into Hyron in THEIR place, allowing them to escape, THEN the whole place collapses after they get to safety!

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE this idea.

sfPuck
13th Sep 2011, 11:11
Limited time for answering during dialogues.

If you take too long, the character would take your silence for an answer.

Sounds like a good idea on paper. Sadly, you do have to keep an important fact in mind. Sum peeple dun reed 2 gud.

Romeo
13th Sep 2011, 15:12
Sounds like a good idea on paper. Sadly, you do have to keep an important fact in mind. Sum peeple dun reed 2 gud.
I still like his idea. Besides, if you're listening, then you don't need to read what they've said. And your answers are usually only a line long. Even if you are to worried, just pick the emotion and run with it.

cwiyk
14th Sep 2011, 01:54
I'm still early in my first play through, but I'd like to see a lot areas and side-quests in the first Detroit hub. If necessary, increase the amount of xp needed to level up.

sea
14th Sep 2011, 01:57
Give me a mod that removes XP for hacking/kills/exploring closets/etc., and/or increases XP requirements for leveling up by 50%, and the game will instantly become about five times better.

Romeo
14th Sep 2011, 01:59
Give me a mod that removes XP for hacking/kills/exploring closets/etc., and/or increases XP requirements for leveling up by 50%, and the game will instantly become about five times better.
Better yet:
"Getting Things Done" XP from 750 to 2500XP
"Explorer" XP from 200XP to 500XP
Everything else 0XP.

Game = balanced.

badhabitz
14th Sep 2011, 02:44
Someone must have already said so but Red Orchestra 2 has first person cover system, blind firing from cover and traditional leaning. It is better than the Crysis 2 and Fear 3 cover system I would say. Would love to see it in future games.

Tverdyj
14th Sep 2011, 04:16
add lean keys
remove radar.

it's all you need for a proper first person stealth experience.

those who want, can still choose to activate the radar aug. those who don't --can spend praxis points on something else.

Romeo
14th Sep 2011, 16:17
add lean keys
remove radar.

it's all you need for a proper first person stealth experience.

those who want, can still choose to activate the radar aug. those who don't --can spend praxis points on something else.
Radar would be easy to remove, lean keys would be a lot harder to implement.

PugPug
14th Sep 2011, 16:30
I wish someone would post a guide to how to mod the game. I make mods, but not the utilities people make to get started (extracting archives, etc). I hope script mods are possible. I would fix the energy cell system. I'd probably just make them all regenerate. Or maybe make a takedown/wall punch only take 99% of a cell.

It looks like Eidos did not make the game easily moddable, though. Any time there is an update to the game, the mods get broken. There needs to be an override folder.

I thought game developers learned a long time ago that modding indirectly helps them out.

Romeo
14th Sep 2011, 19:48
They may release an SDK later on. In the mean time though, it doesn't help them out, not at all. They have to spend money to build up the SDK, and then host it on their site for free (While paying for the server to house it). Then, when it comes out, the mods will likely fall in to two catagories:

Ones that get rid of many of the design decisions (Say, health regeneration) which makes the company look bad (Wow, your fans really hated your design philosophy!) which makes future games less likely to sell.

Ones that add content, which places them in direct competition with the DLC they're trying to release, cannibalizing sales.



Bethesda has said before that the mod-kits they release are a fan-service, and Chris Taylor has stated numerous times that having the SDK for Total Annihilation on Cavedog's site cost them a small fortune, which is why they now only release SDKs on other sites, if they release them at all. SDKs are great for fans, terrible for devellopers and publishers.

itsonyourhead
14th Sep 2011, 21:54
They may release an SDK later on. In the mean time though, it doesn't help them out, not at all. They have to spend money to build up the SDK, and then host it on their site for free (While paying for the server to house it). Then, when it comes out, the mods will likely fall in to two catagories:

Ones that get rid of many of the design decisions (Say, health regeneration) which makes the company look bad (Wow, your fans really hated your design philosophy!) which makes future games less likely to sell.

Ones that add content, which places them in direct competition with the DLC they're trying to release, cannibalizing sales.



Bethesda has said before that the mod-kits they release are a fan-service, and Chris Taylor has stated numerous times that having the SDK for Total Annihilation on Cavedog's site cost them a small fortune, which is why they now only release SDKs on other sites, if they release them at all. SDKs are great for fans, terrible for devellopers and publishers.

I disagree. Releasing an SDK only helps the publisher/developer.

User made mods add value to the product.
Just because a user-made mod changes something about the game doesn't mean that the game somehow failed or that EM are bad developers. And there is no way that is going to translate into less sales in the future. Any "faults" mods may correct or improve exist regardless of the existence of the mod to fix it. Mods may actually allow consumers to overlook the game's faults in expectation of fixes.
User-made mod's that change something are optional -- only the people who like the game better with the mod change are going to use it. Therefore, those who like the mod change now value the game greater because for them, the mod change added value to the game. Those who don't like the mod won't use it, and there is no value subtracted for them. NET GAIN.
In the future, consumers will value EM's games higher because they expect mods will allow them to customize the game to their tastes, raising the percieved value of the game and inducing more people to buy them.

MODS allow the developers to see what users want from their games, what works better and what they might use in a sequel. Bethesda has taken mods and incorporated them into sequels. Valve has turned several MODS into full retail games.

Content mods add value to the game. Those who like the content mods play them, raising the value of the game. In the future, consumers might anticipate content mods and so percieve EM's games to have more value, inducing more people to spend more on them.

Developers are in the game industry to make great games. If content mods push them through competition to produce truly exceptional DLC, then more people will buy and play the DLC because of it's high value.

The only thing that NOT releasing an SDK does is allow the publisher to produce shoddy DLC competition free and put off certain players by reducing customizability, reducing current and future sales.

SDK server hosting problems can be solved by relegating much of the downloading to torrents or 3rd party hosting.

There is no loss here. It's a completely win-win-win-win-win situation. Everybody wins! If only life were so easy.

Romeo
14th Sep 2011, 22:24
I disagree. Releasing an SDK only helps the publisher/developer.

User made mods add value to the product.
Just because a user-made mod changes something about the game doesn't mean that the game somehow failed or that EM are bad developers. And there is no way that is going to translate into less sales in the future. Any "faults" mods may correct or improve exist regardless of the existence of the mod to fix it. Mods may actually allow consumers to overlook the game's faults in expectation of fixes.
User-made mod's that change something are optional -- only the people who like the game better with the mod change are going to use it. Therefore, those who like the mod change now value the game greater because for them, the mod change added value to the game. Those who don't like the mod won't use it, and there is no value subtracted for them. NET GAIN.
In the future, consumers will value EM's games higher because they expect mods will allow them to customize the game to their tastes, raising the percieved value of the game and inducing more people to buy them.

MODS allow the developers to see what users want from their games, what works better and what they might use in a sequel. Bethesda has taken mods and incorporated them into sequels. Valve has turned several MODS into full retail games.

Content mods add value to the game. Those who like the content mods play them, raising the value of the game. In the future, consumers might anticipate content mods and so percieve EM's games to have more value, inducing more people to spend more on them.

Developers are in the game industry to make great games. If content mods push them through competition to produce truly exceptional DLC, then more people will buy and play the DLC because of it's high value.

The only thing that NOT releasing an SDK does is allow the publisher to produce shoddy DLC competition free and put off certain players by reducing customizability, reducing current and future sales.

SDK server hosting problems can be solved by relegating much of the downloading to torrents or 3rd party hosting.

There is no loss here. It's a completely win-win-win-win-win situation. Everybody wins! If only life were so easy.
There is a difference between value and income. From a consumer's perspective, yes, an SDK is awesome. As much as I hated the changes in Oblivion, I played it almost as long as Morrowind, simply because I enjoyed adding and changing stuff. Now, how much did Bethesda make off me getting the SDK? Nothing. I had bought Oblivion well in advance of there being an SDK (In fact, I had it paid for during the interviews where Ken Rolsten thought there may not be time for an SDK). Same goes for Fallout 3.

You see, the thing is, you don't buy a game you don't like in the hopes of modding it to make it better (Ok, there is a very select group that do, but I speak of the majority). You buy a game you already like, and if you can mod it, sure, you can tweak the details to your liking (Sometimes, still couldn't properly get back the weapon types lost from Morrowind...)

And yes, Valve is making a full-retail version of Counter-Strike and DOTA. Here's the thing though: As a consumer - those things are available for free to me. Why the hell am I going to give money to Valve for them? It'd be like someone offering me a Porsche Cayman for free, or I could buy the better looking Carrera GT for full price.

Now, assuming Eidos puts in the devellopment time to make a half-decent SDK (Which, again, costs money) and gives it to me, I now have the awesome prospect of correcting things I thought shouldn't have been an issue in the first place. And some things I'd like to see fixed would take me so long to correct the next game would likely be just around the corner by the time I finished. And, after all that, at the end of the day, that SDK wouldn't illicit another dime out of me. If the next game looked awful, I wouldn't buy it. If it looked awful and came with a mod-kit, I still wouldn't buy it. If it looked good, I'd buy it. If it looked good and didn't have an SDK, I'd still buy it.

itsonyourhead
14th Sep 2011, 22:53
There is a difference between value and income. From a consumer's perspective, yes, an SDK is awesome. As much as I hated the changes in Oblivion, I played it almost as long as Morrowind, simply because I enjoyed adding and changing stuff. Now, how much did Bethesda make off me getting the SDK? Nothing. I had bought Oblivion well in advance of there being an SDK (In fact, I had it paid for during the interviews where Ken Rolsten thought there may not be time for an SDK). Same goes for Fallout 3.

You see, the thing is, you don't buy a game you don't like in the hopes of modding it to make it better (Ok, there is a very select group that do, but I speak of the majority). You buy a game you already like, and if you can mod it, sure, you can tweak the details to your liking (Sometimes, still couldn't properly get back the weapon types lost from Morrowind...)

And yes, Valve is making a full-retail version of Counter-Strike and DOTA. Here's the thing though: As a consumer - those things are available for free to me. Why the hell am I going to give money to Valve for them? It'd be like someone offering me a Porsche Cayman for free, or I could buy the better looking Carrera GT for full price.

Now, assuming Eidos puts in the devellopment time to make a half-decent SDK (Which, again, costs money) and gives it to me, I now have the awesome prospect of correcting things I thought shouldn't have been an issue in the first place. And some things I'd like to see fixed would take me so long to correct the next game would likely be just around the corner by the time I finished. And, after all that, at the end of the day, that SDK wouldn't illicit another dime out of me. If the next game looked awful, I wouldn't buy it. If it looked awful and came with a mod-kit, I still wouldn't buy it. If it looked good, I'd buy it. If it looked good and didn't have an SDK, I'd still buy it.

Income isn't the end all of things, but... In terms of economics, the greater a consumer values a product, the more they are willing to spend for that product == more people are willing to buy the product.

Besides the economics, developers have to make the game themselves don't they? Therefore they already have an SDK. That's how they made the game. If their SDK is so obscure that they can't release it to the public to use, maybe they should think about improving their development tools so they can produce the game themselves more efficiently. I guarentee you, if a developer at Eidos Montreal can use it to make the game, there are fans who can use the technology to make modified content.

It is a fan-service. And fan-service generates and expands the fan-base. Fans = more sales and more viral marketing power == more sales in the future.

Now...

Income is not the end all of things. Developers don't spend 4 years of their life on a game just for a pay-check. They do it to make a great game for other people to enjoy and experience. They add value to the world with their game. If an SDK adds value, that's pretty much in line with what they are already doing.

Romeo
14th Sep 2011, 23:13
Income isn't the end all of things, but... In terms of economics, the greater a consumer values a product, the more they are willing to spend for that product == more people are willing to buy the product.

Besides the economics, developers have to make the game themselves don't they? Therefore they already have an SDK. That's how they made the game. If their SDK is so obscure that they can't release it to the public to use, maybe they should think about improving their development tools so they can produce the game themselves more efficiently. I guarentee you, if a developer at Eidos Montreal can use it to make the game, there are fans who can use the technology to make modified content.

It is a fan-service. And fan-service generates and expands the fan-base. Fans = more sales and more viral marketing power == more sales in the future.

Now...

Income is not the end all of things. Developers don't spend 4 years of their life on a game just for a pay-check. They do it to make a great game for other people to enjoy and experience. They add value to the world with their game. If an SDK adds value, that's pretty much in line with what they are already doing.
I hate to break it to you, but when you have tens, if not hundreds of millions invested in to a project, income IS the big thing to worry about. As for the individual devellopers, how much say do you think they even have? I'll give you a hint: It rhymes with Nero. No, the CEOs are the ones deciding what happens, and making the fiscal decisions, and the guys under them, the devellopers, are following orders. Because if that game doesn't pull enough figures, that job you love so much goes down the drain. Case in point: I love Hot Rodding, and I occasionally do a free bit of work for a friend, but 99% of the time, I charge for everything I do. Because, while I love what I do, at the end of the day, it is still a job. Now, you speak of value versus total sales. But, as I just said, for the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY, the value of the game is from the game itself, not an SDK. I wont be buying Skyrim, even though I love modding the Elder Scrolls. Simply put, I don't like the game, and I don't much feel like modding to fix the game enough for me to enjoy it. The same goes for everyone. Modding will make a good game better, but not make a bad game worse. And if it's a good game to begin with, then you already have your selling point.

And while they undoubtedly do have the develloper tools, if they're so complex that the average person can't make sense of them, then they're kind've useless. That's one reason why there's a plethora of mods for Total Annihilation, but very few for Dawn of War. From a devellopment standpoint, one SDK didn't make one game better than the other; In fact, most would describe Dawn of War as being the better overall game between the two.

Unfortunately, I think you misunderstand what a fan-service is: A service to your existing fans. Fan service doesn't treat 10000 fans and expect 11000 fans after. It's known ahead of time that they're going to treat 10000 fans and end up with... 10000 fans.

Jason Parker
14th Sep 2011, 23:30
You both have valid points here. I think it is highly dependend on who the modders are and what they do. There are games/mods that serve as good arguments for both of you. For instance Romeo is totally right when bringing up Oblivion, Fallout and Fallout New Vegas as examples of great SDKs that just did not pay off for the publisher/developer. On the other hand I'd say Counter-Strike was a reason for many people to buy Half-Life back in the days before it became a standalone mod. Same surely holds true for the Desert Combat Modification of Battlefield 1942. The story around Portal also is a nice example.

What differs those mods from Mods for Oblivion/Fallout 3/ Fallout:New Vegas is that they were so called "Total Conversions" that not only add new content, but are indeed totally new games of their own that still need the original game to run but can apeal to a whole new crowd that maybe didn't even like the original game.

And here's the hook in it all: When releasing a SDK you can't predict that the outcame will be such awesome mods as CS or DC. More likely all that is done are content additions at most that fit in with and expand the original game. Such mods, as Romeo already pointed out, may tie players even closer to a game/game series but hardly will catch new players in any significant number that would make releasing the SDK a profitable thing.

Edit: Having read Romeos last post I'd like to add some more. Of course releasing a SDK is a Fan-Service that does not have the goal to get significantly more Fans over it. Still bearing in mind what you just said about there being a need to produce a profit and income, I do not believe SDKs are released just to be nice. They indeed are a means of adding lifetime to the game, keeping the community awake and breathing and as such surely reduce the investments into marketing campaigns needed for a sequel. Still you're right when saying the basis to get such an outcome out of a SDK Release is a game that already is great and has a big and solid fanbase.

Jason Parker
14th Sep 2011, 23:59
Post on Thread Topic:

If we don't get it as part of a future DLC and we do get a SDK (allthough unlikely) I'd love to see a mod that expands some of the sidequests. Especialy "Cloak and Daggers".
It's just so disappointing that when you kill double-t the mission just ends instead of you switching sides and helping out O'Malley. Former cop or not. Adam's my Charactzer during gameplay and after all he went through some pretty traumatizing ****, so why not let him go rogue at least for a bit.

But also the "Lesser Evils" sidequest could use some follow up, aswell as "Talion A.D.".

itsonyourhead
15th Sep 2011, 00:39
Post on Thread Topic:

If we don't get it as part of a future DLC and we do get a SDK (allthough unlikely) I'd love to see a mod that expands some of the sidequests. Especialy "Cloak and Daggers".
It's just so disappointing that when you kill double-t the mission just ends instead of you switching sides and helping out O'Malley. Former cop or not. Adam's my Charactzer during gameplay and after all he went through some pretty traumatizing ****, so why not let him go rogue at least for a bit.

But also the "Lesser Evils" sidequest could use some follow up, aswell as "Talion A.D.".

Everyone agrees with you. The devs made some mistakes there.

itsonyourhead
15th Sep 2011, 00:42
I hate to break it to you, but when you have tens, if not hundreds of millions invested in to a project, income IS the big thing to worry about. As for the individual devellopers, how much say do you think they even have? I'll give you a hint: It rhymes with Nero. No, the CEOs are the ones deciding what happens, and making the fiscal decisions, and the guys under them, the devellopers, are following orders. Because if that game doesn't pull enough figures, that job you love so much goes down the drain. Case in point: I love Hot Rodding, and I occasionally do a free bit of work for a friend, but 99% of the time, I charge for everything I do. Because, while I love what I do, at the end of the day, it is still a job. Now, you speak of value versus total sales. But, as I just said, for the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY, the value of the game is from the game itself, not an SDK. I wont be buying Skyrim, even though I love modding the Elder Scrolls. Simply put, I don't like the game, and I don't much feel like modding to fix the game enough for me to enjoy it. The same goes for everyone. Modding will make a good game better, but not make a bad game worse. And if it's a good game to begin with, then you already have your selling point.

And while they undoubtedly do have the develloper tools, if they're so complex that the average person can't make sense of them, then they're kind've useless. That's one reason why there's a plethora of mods for Total Annihilation, but very few for Dawn of War. From a devellopment standpoint, one SDK didn't make one game better than the other; In fact, most would describe Dawn of War as being the better overall game between the two.

Unfortunately, I think you misunderstand what a fan-service is: A service to your existing fans. Fan service doesn't treat 10000 fans and expect 11000 fans after. It's known ahead of time that they're going to treat 10000 fans and end up with... 10000 fans.

You are working on the assumption that an SDK will not induce more people to spend more money on the game.

This is a false assumption. Just because an SDK would not induce YOU to spend more money on or buy a game does not mean that it won't do just that to someone else.

In the end it only benefits the publisher/developer AND the gamers.

Beyond that, an SDK would be valued by the consumer. Hell, they could charge for it if they wanted.

temptemp1234
24th Sep 2011, 02:31
back to TOPIC,

1) gameplay effects to match animations/cinematics (i.e. blood/colorings)

2) persistant bodies/pieces/scrap

3) no more Parkinson's heads! (Malik's was the worst)