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View Full Version : Melee is ruined.



Daisah
28th Aug 2011, 10:53
In my opinion melee is screwed up in this game.
The removal of melee weapons is is made worse by the consumption of energy for takedowns.
If takedowns were free than I would be happy.

popej
28th Aug 2011, 10:57
Nah it's total cheese. Would rather have click to swing mechanics like the original. At the very least takedowns should be in real time rather than paused.

NKD
28th Aug 2011, 10:57
Yeah I'd be happy too, I could clear a room of guards by just standing there mashing Q.

Charadesmith
28th Aug 2011, 11:01
Yeah hooray for spamming insta win

What is it with you people >_<

Faenix1
28th Aug 2011, 11:08
game is easy enough already, Im on the middle difficulty - do a harder one for my second - and I only die, on purpose, cause I alerted them to my presence.

Stun gun + non-lethal take downs = you own the show. If take downs didnt cost anything, it would be WAY to overpowered. I still haven't used my 10k credits my preorder code gave me, cause I quite frankly dont need the extra credits.

Daisah
28th Aug 2011, 11:12
Nah it's total cheese. Would rather have click to swing mechanics like the original. At the very least takedowns should be in real time rather than paused.

Yeah, I'd rather "Click to swing" as well. Just doesn't feel the same anymore :(

Sky_walker
28th Aug 2011, 11:24
This would be cool.

Nice would be also an ability to steal opponent weapon through melee (double click while pointing on enemy weapon in melee, or something like that) to force them fight melee too... hehehhee

Cerebelum
28th Aug 2011, 11:49
I think I would prefer some more control over the melee, other than the ability to chuck heavy things at the enemy hehe

wheresmyskulgun
28th Aug 2011, 13:11
In my opinion, Mirror's Edge did unarmed combat right; some of the most fluid, coolest looking, most visceral stuff you'll ever see. There is nothing like wallrun-kicking a shotgun wielding bad guy so they spin around, then flipping the gun over their shoulder, knocking them out, and shooting the guy next to them. Or activiating slow-mo as your wallrun while firing a submachine gun. Or grabbing your enemies pistol, leaping of a roof, spinning 180 degrees and shooting the next guy as you fall.

God I loved that game. Hard to master the controls, but once you did, baby.

nomotog
28th Aug 2011, 14:41
A melee strike would be nice and yes it feels off that the only thing you can do when someone runs up on you is shoot them.

AlexOfSpades
28th Aug 2011, 14:52
We've been fighting for melee combat instead of takedowns for the past YEARS in the forums, and Eidos never cared.

It was their own stubborn decision.

Metatron1337
28th Aug 2011, 15:06
Takedowns are good, they look good, and they are balanced.

They are a exp harvesting instakill button, if they didn't consume energy, they'd be to the balancing what a tire iron is to a kneecap.

Why don't you guys just ask the devs to include a "press button to win game" feature?
That's all you're basically asking for isn't it?

Also you can takedown an enemy shooting you, if you have the energy.

Dark Phoenix
28th Aug 2011, 15:12
I just started the game. Is there going to be an DKD for this? Perhaps someone will make Mods..

flipperflopper
28th Aug 2011, 15:13
They could have made non lethal takedowns less powerful.. Why hold "Q" when you can tap it..
Ie Enemy regains consciousness after a period of time.

I never asked for takedowns...

AlexOfSpades
28th Aug 2011, 16:34
Why don't you guys just ask the devs to include a "press button to win game" feature?
That's all you're basically asking for isn't it?


Nope, quite the opposite. Takedowns are a press button to win feature, and we never asked for it.

Whats harder for you, sneak behind the enemy, aim precisely at a certain spot (such as, the coccix bone for MJ12 Commandos) and strike, having a good chance that you'll miss and get your ass shot, or charging against enemies in a kamikaze run, having to spam the sword button while keeping the aim on the head, all of that while dodging like Bruce Lee tapdancing in a room filled with mousetraps and spikes so you wont get hit by the 876834 soldiers that just took aim on you



or



Running to the enemy and pressing takedown button, which renders you immortal while the super zomg headshot l337 awes0me animation goes?

alanschu
28th Aug 2011, 16:50
Nope, quite the opposite. Takedowns are a press button to win feature, and we never asked for it.

Whats harder for you, sneak behind the enemy, aim precisely at a certain spot (such as, the coccix bone for MJ12 Commandos) and strike, having a good chance that you'll miss and get your ass shot, or charging against enemies in a kamikaze run, having to spam the sword button while keeping the aim on the head, all of that while dodging like Bruce Lee tapdancing in a room filled with mousetraps and spikes so you wont get hit by the 876834 soldiers that just took aim on you



or



Running to the enemy and pressing takedown button, which renders you immortal while the super zomg headshot l337 awes0me animation goes?

In both situations you'll likely end up dead.

Unless you're not playing on the hardest difficulty, Jensen (and Denton) are not particularly equipped to deal with any sort of kamikaze situation.

Although personally I find it a lot easier to do so in the original Deus Ex.

Dentrick
28th Aug 2011, 17:13
I demand to posses the ability to slap uselessly at the back of enemies with my flaccid baton. It's so much fun to have absolutely no idea whether or not I am going to knock them out or get shot in the face. Also, what's up with shooting people in the head? It's like, press a button to win and I didn't ask for that.

Boradam
28th Aug 2011, 17:23
I demand to posses the ability to slap uselessly at the back of enemies with my flaccid baton.

"I never asked for this"

AlexOfSpades
28th Aug 2011, 17:31
It's so much fun to have absolutely no idea whether or not I am going to knock them out or get shot in the face.

Depends on how good you are. If you suck, then you'll miss and get shot. If you're good, you'll knock him out. With takedowns, you'll always win. There's no skill required. A retarded kid with a blindfold can do it.

"Absolutely no idea"? Are you serious? If you cant spot the difference, i'm amazed you even managed to press "Next" when installing the game. I'm sorry, i'm trying hard not to bump on the ToU.

Oh, the things i read here.


Also, what's up with shooting people in the head? It's like, press a button to win and I didn't ask for that.

Again, depends on your skill. Landing a takedown is easy even on Deus Ex difficulty. Plus, it "freezes" the other enemies.

Its ridiculous.

Headshots are a little different. Requires skill and timing.


In both situations you'll likely end up dead.

Unless you're not playing on the hardest difficulty, Jensen (and Denton) are not particularly equipped to deal with any sort of kamikaze situation.

Yeah, thats actually true, but only when facing a lot of enemies. When facing a single target, takedowns are still way easy.

At least for me.

doctor_atomic
28th Aug 2011, 17:40
I demand to posses the ability to slap uselessly at the back of enemies with my flaccid baton. It's so much fun to have absolutely no idea whether or not I am going to knock them out or get shot in the face.

Just because you are incompetent doesn't mean the rest of us are. I put a lot of enemies down with batons in the earlier games.

The problem, I think, is that someone on the dev team has a stupid bean counter mentality. They couldn't deal with an attack that didn't cost ammo or energy despite the fact that melee has been a part of the series until this game.

Dentrick
28th Aug 2011, 18:17
I couldn't assume what the devs mentality was because I am not psychic.

Most of the conflict zones in the game doesn't really let you take advantage of takedowns. There's always someone(s) around to kill you with bullets. Plus, it costs energy. I rarely use the takedowns myself for that reason.

Those of you here sobbing about takedowns aren't also making comments about the stun gun, tranquilizer rifle, PEPS, 10mm pistol with laser sight, ect, which are all ridiculously easy to use when nobody knows that you're around. The stun gun is, in fact, easier to use than a takedown, without the energy cost.

But this is the internet where everyone is right.

Dentrick
28th Aug 2011, 18:26
The OP's premise is true, if dramatic.

In DX1 melee was a different gameplay element all by itself. That element doesn't exist in Human Revolution. However, I don't agree that melee is too easy.

mad825
28th Aug 2011, 18:36
Most of the conflict zones in the game doesn't really let you take advantage of takedowns. There's always someone(s) around to kill you with bullets. Plus, it costs energy. I rarely use the takedowns myself for that reason.

Those of you here sobbing about takedowns aren't also making comments about the stun gun, tranquilizer rifle, PEPS, 10mm pistol with laser sight, ect, which are all ridiculously easy to use when nobody knows that you're around. The stun gun is, in fact, easier to use than a takedown, without the energy cost.

There are plenty of opportunities if you are playing it stealthy and there are even more when you have the aug to allow multiple takedowns. The energy is not really a problem as you will have 1 battery limit without having to refuel.
Using the Non-lethal Weapons (NLWs) I find is a last resort and would only be used by the player is once detected or was out of reach. Anyway, they have high limitations such as the limited ammo stack within the inventory and the very small mag combined with a relativity long reload time.

For my first Stealth run: without the melee weapons for me was a major hindrance, To destroy (breakable) objects I was mainly relying on the guns and explosives therefore I never bothered due to the ammo limitations in the game. Also it made my game-play longer (negative point) as I had to wait for my battery to recharge or I had to store/use consumables so the use of melee weapons would've made the combat more fluid for me.

sinosleep
28th Aug 2011, 19:00
Free melee would break the game as melee currently functions.

mad825
28th Aug 2011, 19:10
Free melee would break the game as melee currently functions.

So 1v1 is more game breaking than 1v2? Yea...

thetrac3r
28th Aug 2011, 19:21
The animations for the takedowns are really cool though, you have to admit.

sinosleep
28th Aug 2011, 19:24
So 1v1 is more game breaking than 1v2? Yea...

???

popej
28th Aug 2011, 19:36
Let's get one thing straight because I think there's some misconceptions about what different people want. I want the game to be rock hard, to punish you for mistakes. Hard to the point that you have to quick load 4 or 5 times to get each section of combat right, but that's not a problem because it would still be satisfying.

Currently the takedown mechanic practically provides impunity to failure. It's dull and it's cheesy in a typical console 'press X to avoid alien and win deadspace 2' fashion. Scrap the freakin energy requirement bobbins and make it a traditional 'click to swing' system. Takedowns are utter cheese and have no place in and action rpg like Deus ex.

AlexOfSpades
28th Aug 2011, 19:37
The animations for the takedowns are really cool though, you have to admit.

Yeah. I can give Eidos that. :)

sinosleep
28th Aug 2011, 19:48
Let's get one thing straight because I think there's some misconceptions about what different people want. I want the game to be rock hard, to punish you for mistakes. Hard to the point that you have to quick load 4 or 5 times to get each section of combat right, but that's not a problem because it would still be satisfying.

Currently the takedown mechanic practically provides impunity to failure. It's dull and it's cheesy in a typical console 'press X to avoid alien and win deadspace 2' fashion. Scrap the freakin energy requirement bobbins and make it a traditional 'click to swing' system. Takedowns are utter cheese and have no place in and action rpg like Deus ex.

Then they wouldn't look nearly as cool. Yeah, takedowns are an I win button, but you rarely have enough energy to chain together enough of them to be REALLY cheesy and that's really the only way they provide any more impunity to failure than any other action in the game. Without chaining them together you're just as liable to die after performing one as you are after using the stungun or silenced pistol on someone.

Erogath
28th Aug 2011, 20:42
Then they wouldn't look nearly as cool. Yeah, takedowns are an I win button, but you rarely have enough energy to chain together enough of them to be REALLY cheesy and that's really the only way they provide any more impunity to failure than any other action in the game. Without chaining them together you're just as liable to die after performing one as you are after using the stungun or silenced pistol on someone.

1) Takedown animations are limited and you will get tired of seeing them after enough replays.

2) If you want to just look cool, watch a movie and pretend you're the action-hero.

Not to sound like I'm complaining about the takedowns, this is really the first game I've played that used them in this fashion. That being said, I would prefer the Dues Ex(1) melee weapon knock-out system. It's not going to look 'cool', but in reality you aren't going to zoom out 3rd person and watch yourself beat people up either. I'm having fun though, it's a worthy successor to the first game. ^_^

sinosleep
28th Aug 2011, 20:51
Meh, I played through Detroit 3 times before settling on a character to beat the game with the other day and am currently on a rambo run. I used melee heavily in all my runs and I'm still not sick of it. Certainly get more of a kick out of it then sneak headshot, sneak headshot, sneak headshot. Different strokes I suppose as far as the animation goes, but with regards to being cheesy or not belonging in an action rpg I disagree completely.

Vasarto
28th Aug 2011, 21:08
Well they did a lot of things that were new and experimental. Its still alright and I am sure they will fix it in the next game.

mad825
28th Aug 2011, 21:24
???

1v1; you can only attack one person at a time, one person or the other but not both at the same time
1v2 or3/4/5; you can attack two/three/four/five people simultaneously.

There's probably a better word for it ^.^
Nevertheless, when you are in a basic melee fight, it's very difficulty to fight with more than one person against you.

louce
28th Aug 2011, 21:31
I personally hope that they DON'T remove the takedowns if they make a new game because of all the hating going on in the boards. Some people actually enjoy them and have fun using them as they feel very satisfying without it feeling over powered thanks to the energy requirements. Anyway I am sure Eidos could add both takedowns and manual melee combat in the next game to satisfy everyone. Takedowns are cool, don't remove them because some players feel that it's impeding on there l33t skillz.

doctor_atomic
28th Aug 2011, 21:54
I couldn't assume what the devs mentality was because I am not psychic.

Most of the conflict zones in the game doesn't really let you take advantage of takedowns. There's always someone(s) around to kill you with bullets. Plus, it costs energy. I rarely use the takedowns myself for that reason.

Those of you here sobbing about takedowns aren't also making comments about the stun gun, tranquilizer rifle, PEPS, 10mm pistol with laser sight, ect, which are all ridiculously easy to use when nobody knows that you're around. The stun gun is, in fact, easier to use than a takedown, without the energy cost.

But this is the internet where everyone is right.

Now you are just weaseling, your comments were about our complaints about the lack of melee as it existed in DX 1 and 2, that has nothing to do with takedowns. Are you generally this dishonest or is today a special occasion?

Doom972
28th Aug 2011, 23:13
Forget melee weapons, you have METAL FISTS. Since running doesn't use energy, why should punching? If they did it the same way melee worked in DX it would've worked (hit on the back makes enemy faint/die, hit on the front does little damage).

SearingWind
28th Aug 2011, 23:40
I just HATE how the kill take down alerts everyone in 50 yards and breaking someones arm and knocking them out doesn't disturb the guy standing 2 feet from him.

Terminus
29th Aug 2011, 00:02
Takedowns are neat looking, and it's an interesting dynamic, but I miss regular ol' melee.

I mean, if cutting edge dystopian cybernetics mean I have to eat a Powerbar every time I want to punch someone in the jaw, count me out.

Dentrick
29th Aug 2011, 00:30
Now you are just weaseling, your comments were about our complaints about the lack of melee as it existed in DX 1 and 2, that has nothing to do with takedowns. Are you generally this dishonest or is today a special occasion?

If you had bothered to continue reading before spilling angst all over your keyboard you would have seen that I admitted that the melee gameplay from DX1 has vanished in Human Revolution. But if you like, I'd be happy to talk about whatever you think I should talk about in order to remain honest (?).

popej
29th Aug 2011, 08:41
A far better way to handle it would be in a Batman Arkham Asylum style. You initiate the attack against one bad guy and then have to use some brain power and twitch reaction to keep the move going. If you pull the entire 'flow' off successfully then it remains silent and you don't set off any alarms. If you screw up then the caddies have time to react and make some noise to alert their mates. Walking upto someone and pressing Q, watching the cut scene and then doing it again will not remain fun for long.

Griseus
29th Aug 2011, 09:18
Takedowns are good, they look good, and they are balanced.

You must be joking? You need energy to hit a guy with your fist and knee of choke him. Why no energy use for moving, as all this machanical **** also uses energy. This also will be great. 100m walk -> 1 minute waiting for recharge. Or eat energy bars all the time to keem moving :lmao:

sinosleep
29th Aug 2011, 14:46
You must be joking? You need energy to hit a guy with your fist and knee of choke him. Why no energy use for moving, as all this machanical **** also uses energy. This also will be great. 100m walk -> 1 minute waiting for recharge. Or eat energy bars all the time to keem moving :lmao:

What part of take downs freeze time and make you immune to damage are you people not understanding? They are ABSURDLY powerful, which is why they require energy. It's a game mechanic thing. I swear it's like some of you have never played a video game before. There are a TON of things that happen in video games that don't make the most logical sense in the world but are done for gameplay reasons. In real life if you reload a weapon before the magazine is out of bullets you LOSE those bullets. Guess what, 99% of games don't hold to this and let you reload a new magazine without losing what was left in your old one cause it's viewed as punishing the player for something the instinctively do. People who play shooters reload ALL THE TIME, and these same people would be out of ammo in no time flat if they held to the logical concept of losing ammo for reloading half way through a magazine.

http://youtu.be/kG5lKjA18hc

http://youtu.be/g7EWGdmd1nc

As you can see in the beginning of the second video. Those guys kill me damned near instantly without the takedowns. But since takedowns freeze time, it doesn't matter if I get cheesy and take down spam by eating all my candy in one go.

p.s. You DO use energy for silent movement, but not for regular movement. This is no different.