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View Full Version : Poll: energy cells, (how) should they be fixed?



FeepingCreature
26th Aug 2011, 21:40
I set up a poll on the topic (http://micropoll.com/t/KEwY7ZCKUJ).

At present, only the first cell will ever regenerate, and takedowns consume one cell. Some people do not like this. Vote if you think it should be changed. (Micropoll because for some reason the forum doesn't let me start native polls)

Please answer assuming arbitrary upgrades in energy management. For instance, if you want "upgradeable to regenerate fully", vote "regenerate fully".

Please keep comments here, not on the poll.

Thanks for your time.

Absolutionis
26th Aug 2011, 22:25
Upgrade your regeneration twice and the fact that you have only one cell won't matter.
The only times having more than one cell is pertinent is when you're using two augs simultaneously. In that case, just eat a snack bar.

Charadesmith
26th Aug 2011, 22:34
Don't need fixing, they're perfect as it is. You want the game to be even easier?

Fireisprettyful
27th Aug 2011, 00:21
i am not going to spoil any bit of the game, but there was a part in the game where i was facing about 12 enemies or so, not easy enemies either

i found a vent that led from one side of the room to the other all i did was go in that vent and takedown someone, and then go back to the vent and to the other side wait for my battery to charge and then do it again till they were all gone

it wasnt too hard(though i did die a few times trying this) but imagine if every batery regenerated and how much easier it would have been

i think the current system works, i could see how it could be annoying sometimes but i dont want every battery to recharge or its way too easy, on the flip side i do not want to consume items for every single one of my batteries to recharge

i got an idea something i would love

you get augs to make more batteries recharge in some later DLC then everyone is happy because they can have as many batteries that regenerate as they want

Black-Xero
27th Aug 2011, 00:35
Regenerate fully and decrease the amount of energy cost for takedowns.

Evil Champ
27th Aug 2011, 01:23
I've said this before in another post: NON CLOAKED TAKEDOWNS should consume only 85% of battery, thus allowing it to recharge.

I go stealth route, and I have a surplus of ammo. Yes, there are protein bars, but that's silly to have to eat/carry a dozen just to use your powers. I look at the skills I can acquire and I fear I won't be able to use any of them because I'm constantly relying on one battery cell.

Protein bars also give you a lot of gas. Everything else in the game is fine.

Now, if there only was a modding community ....

EDIT: Fixed grammatical error

Sev
27th Aug 2011, 01:57
Fix the XP system instead.

Not penalizing people for not using non-lethal take-downs will fix the energy management problem. Take-downs would then become something used contextually rather than as the optimal means in every situation. This way you wouldn't be stuck on one energy cell at all times and this would give far more meaning to the energy restoring items (and you know, all those weapons outside a boss encounter). The extra batteries will serve as that little something extra, to utilize multiple take-downs and cloak/silent running occasionally, that can be replenished with nutrients for future opportunities rather than being constantly drained by non-lethal take-downs.

As it stands, not using non-lethal take-downs is just gimping your character and hurting your growth, so if you play in the currently most rewarding manner you are stuck at one cell at all times.

All kills should be normalized. Ghost/Smooth Operator shouldn't exist either or have some lethal equivalents (tricky since you can get both while playing lethally but those 2 bonuses still encourage a specific rigid play style). Better yet, just automatically include Ghost and Smooth Operator as quest objective bonus for everyone in the "getting things done" bonus.

Deus Ex didn't penalize you for not playing in a single specific manner, I hate the fact that HE does.

I don't expect these things to ever be patched in or changed, but I hope this is in some way moddable.

crazysam
27th Aug 2011, 01:58
This feature felt broken to me. It just feels like the recharge feature was nerfed because they wanted to have a reason to have a reason to keep those stupid candy bars in the game (how does eating a candy recharge batteries?? wtf...).

Realizing only one battery ever recharges caused me to feel dumb for investing a praxis point on an extra one, and most importantly, made me feel dumb for getting the invisibility upgrade, which is really expensive to use, and you essentially have to have a big pack of those damn candies in order to use it effectively.

This was a terrible decision, it's not at all empowering to the player, and makes me think twice before using cool abilities that are helpful in many situations.

And I'm playing this game on hard mode, it's NOT AT ALL easy! I really hope they patch this issue.

ReliantLion
27th Aug 2011, 02:06
This feature felt broken to me. It just feels like the recharge feature was nerfed because they wanted to have a reason to have a reason to keep those stupid candy bars in the game (how does eating a candy recharge batteries?? wtf...).

Realizing only one battery ever recharges caused me to feel dumb for investing a praxis point on an extra one, and most importantly, made me feel dumb for getting the invisibility upgrade, which is really expensive to use, and you essentially have to have a big pack of those damn candies in order to use it effectively.

This was a terrible decision, it's not at all empowering to the player, and makes me think twice before using cool abilities that are helpful in many situations.

And I'm playing this game on hard mode, it's NOT AT ALL easy! I really hope they patch this issue.
Might I suggest turning on and off invisibility rapidly to change cover? The other cells recharge, as long as they are not fully depleted. It sounds like you want to run through a whole level being invisible the entire time.

Thrilhouse
27th Aug 2011, 02:08
As someone who abused the hell out of Cloak. One battery is enough. If they all recharged, you could run through the entire game while cloaked with ease. Currently, it requires you to use it wisely and plan ahead. At least it does if you don't want to spam energy supplements.

Evil Champ
27th Aug 2011, 02:27
This feature felt broken to me. It just feels like the recharge feature was nerfed because they wanted to have a reason to have a reason to keep those stupid candy bars in the game (how does eating a candy recharge batteries?? wtf...).

Realizing only one battery ever recharges caused me to feel dumb for investing a praxis point on an extra one, and most importantly, made me feel dumb for getting the invisibility upgrade, which is really expensive to use, and you essentially have to have a big pack of those damn candies in order to use it effectively.

This was a terrible decision, it's not at all empowering to the player, and makes me think twice before using cool abilities that are helpful in many situations.

And I'm playing this game on hard mode, it's NOT AT ALL easy! I really hope they patch this issue.

This is exactly my situation to a T. I got the cloak and put one point to have an extra battery. I used my cloak right away and was bummed when I found out my other batteries don't charge AND that I already had an extra one (I thought they started you with one) also play on hard and go stealth route.

Someone mentioned that it makes you think twice before using abilities. The problem with that is I'm questioning the point of using praxis points on anything that needs battery power.

FeepingCreature
27th Aug 2011, 02:29
I think what all who say "it makes the game too easy" may be forgetting is that a fully upgraded energy bar is worth 7 praxis points.

That's a lot, and I think some of that investment is not justifiable at present.

Whether the game becomes too easy when you stand in place for three minutes to wait for your stuff to recharge is arguable. I'd say make takedowns impossible against enemies that can see you and have their weapon drawn and aimed - and add a 2-praxis upgrade to allow all-but-one regeneration somewhere in the middle of the energy bar upgrade chain.

A fully upgraded, expensive augmentation should make the game significantly easier. That's what we upgrade it for.

RedFeather1975
27th Aug 2011, 02:34
Can't fix energy in this game. It is a mess of ideas that came together into something that marginalizes itself.

Fireisprettyful
27th Aug 2011, 02:43
I think what all who say "it makes the game too easy" may be forgetting is that a fully upgraded energy bar is worth 7 praxis points.

That's a lot, and I think some of that investment is not justifiable at present.

Whether the game becomes too easy when you stand in place for three minutes to wait for your stuff to recharge is arguable. I'd say make takedowns impossible against enemies that can see you and have their weapon drawn and aimed - and add a 2-praxis upgrade to allow all-but-one regeneration somewhere in the middle of the energy bar upgrade chain.

A fully upgraded, expensive augmentation should make the game significantly easier. That's what we upgrade it for.
thats why i think how many batteries should be an augmentation because you would have to spend so much points upgrading it so you could regenerate every single battery but it would make the game so much easier once you did, then there are people who would hate all their batteries to regenerate they do not need to get the augmentations then so i really think this entire issue could be fixed for almost everyone by making it a augmentation

i agree without them all regenerate then it makes the expensive augmentation pretty useless but my idea would fix that, maybe 1 upgrade could make 2 of the batteries regenerate or something

Brian175
27th Aug 2011, 02:52
Just curious how many of you invested praxis points into extra batteries beyond maybe one and you probably felt foolish after that. Probably very few. It's a flawed system. It's annoying having 3 batteries full and having one depleted for good because you released some pheromones in a conversation when simply it would have recharged if it was your one and only. They should have made a system where your latest battery recharges unless you step into the next battery ie if I deplete one full battery it still recharges unless I start using the second battery. That would prevent abilities that deplete one complete battery from screwing people over that have multiple batteries charged.

Dentrick
27th Aug 2011, 03:58
I've always thought that takedowns were pointless considering the cost of one bullet.

However, I don't really have a problem with the cloaking and other augmentations. If you're a hoarder like myself, you use cloak as smartly as possible in order to conserve that one battery. If you want to sacrifice your energy tubs/bars whatever to totally avoid an encounter, you can.

WhiteWi
27th Aug 2011, 05:19
keep it the way it is!!!

bobwalt
27th Aug 2011, 05:37
Alternately they could just make energy bars more available. It seems bazaar to me the limb does not sell them as an open item. It makes one afraid to use cloak because you don't know if you will be able to get anymore.

TheYouthCounselor
27th Aug 2011, 07:27
This feature felt broken to me. It just feels like the recharge feature was nerfed because they wanted to have a reason to have a reason to keep those stupid candy bars in the game (how does eating a candy recharge batteries?? wtf...).

Realizing only one battery ever recharges caused me to feel dumb for investing a praxis point on an extra one, and most importantly, made me feel dumb for getting the invisibility upgrade, which is really expensive to use, and you essentially have to have a big pack of those damn candies in order to use it effectively.

This was a terrible decision, it's not at all empowering to the player, and makes me think twice before using cool abilities that are helpful in many situations.

And I'm playing this game on hard mode, it's NOT AT ALL easy! I really hope they patch this issue.

The augs use the body's own bioelectricity. To power these energy extensive machines, you eat really high calorie snacks.

Jukinru
27th Aug 2011, 08:31
My idea to make the battery tree better would be to eliminate the 4th and 5th battery slot and add 2 branches after the 3rd battery purchase. First branch would be a two 1 point upgrades that allows an extra battery to recharge each. Second slot would be the current recharge speed we have now. This would mean if you used up all charges it would take a full minute with max recharge speed to get 3 charges back.

What does everyone think?

WhiteWi
27th Aug 2011, 17:00
my idea is that you check trash cans in city and here you go your energy bars

alanschu
27th Aug 2011, 17:13
Ironically the devs put in a recharge of one cell (rather than no cells at all, like the original) so that you're never stuck never able to use your abilities ever, and it's turned into a "give people an inch and they'll take a mile."

Would people have preferred zero energy regen whatsoever? (it's what I was expecting to be honest).

Thomac
27th Aug 2011, 19:10
and it's turned into a "give people an inch and they'll take a mile."I think you're missing the point; there's absolutely no point in upgrading Energy Cell Capacity (Aside from the first upgrade to avoid "wasting" one cell when using the Cyberboost Energy Jars, I guess) because the only means to regain those extra cells is instant and item-bound.

To put it simply, if you have the default of 2 energy cells and run out of energy, you eat a protein bar and end up at 1 energy. If you have 5 energy cells and run out of energy, you eat a protein bar and end up at 1 energy. There's literally no improvement here, and this is true regardless of whether energy is regenerating or not.

WhiteWi
27th Aug 2011, 20:40
cry me a river

Lannik
27th Aug 2011, 23:14
I feel non lethal takedowns should not consume energy at all. when you think about it sprinting or jumping doesnt consume energy why should a single haymaker to the face cost energy? i mean his legs are augmented simply walking should burn batteries if a punch does.

The logic fails but from one who prefers a single silenced 10mm to the back of the head the battery drains dont bother me so much.

Shralla
27th Aug 2011, 23:25
Regenerate fully and decrease the amount of energy cost for takedowns.

What the **** is wrong with you people?

klaeljanus
28th Aug 2011, 00:05
The reason they don't recharge full is because then the melee would be far to OP.
Hey look 5 guys!
*sneaks up.*
*takes out 4 guys with takedowns*
*uses tranq/stun gun on last guy...*
Rinse and repeat.
What would be nice is to have an alternative to the bars when you're between missions. Like, say, those vending machines.

pha
28th Aug 2011, 00:16
How should they be fixed? I would fix them by making them blue instead of green, to create a contrast with the color palette, making them easier to see.

In short, don't be mad at the energy system and don't be bad at energy management. You'll get by.

Quickjager
28th Aug 2011, 06:38
Simple solution have a 3 Praxis point augment that allows you to recharge ALL the Batteries at the END of the tree. Big investment = Big return

Thats all it really needs...

nutcrackr
28th Aug 2011, 07:10
I don't see a problem with the system but I think if they allowed an expensive upgrade (say 5 praxis points) to recharge 2 cells instead of one, it might be a decent trade off for those who really want it.

singularity
28th Aug 2011, 07:27
Energy is just like everything else in the game. You have to manage it and think before you use it. I'm still a little bit upset that the health regenerates and there is so much ammo.

Honestly, I wish that energy didn't recharge at all on hard mode, and could only be refilled with consumable energy bars. The one-bar-refil is fine (if a little too easy) on normal. Haven't bothered to play easy yet, so I can't comment on it.

That might sound a little hard-core to some, but I really think that using these augmentations is something a player should have to think strategicly about and only utilize them when being human just wouldn't be enough to get by. It isn't Crysis -- the game makes me feel like a bad-ass at constant intervals, but I'm so very happy that it doesn't make me feel like a super-soldier.

Black-Xero
28th Aug 2011, 08:44
What the **** is wrong with you people?

Absolutely nothing.

Laokin
28th Aug 2011, 10:16
Energy is just like everything else in the game. You have to manage it and think before you use it. I'm still a little bit upset that the health regenerates and there is so much ammo.

Honestly, I wish that energy didn't recharge at all on hard mode, and could only be refilled with consumable energy bars. The one-bar-refil is fine (if a little too easy) on normal. Haven't bothered to play easy yet, so I can't comment on it.

That might sound a little hard-core to some, but I really think that using these augmentations is something a player should have to think strategicly about and only utilize them when being human just wouldn't be enough to get by. It isn't Crysis -- the game makes me feel like a bad-ass at constant intervals, but I'm so very happy that it doesn't make me feel like a super-soldier.

But, Adam IS a super soldier.... so why shouldn't you feel like a super soldier?

I beat the game... on GMDX (Hard) and I never ever got stuck at any part without energy... I came close a few times, but never was I ever stuck on one bar. Cloaking III with Energy Recharge III gives you unlimited cloaking for 7 seconds every 20 seconds. Having all 5 batteries is also pretty awesome. You can cloak for 35 seconds and eat a protein jar and be full again. I do not feel like I wasted praxis on extra batteries... You guys are looking at the energy the opposite way...

"I'm always empty."

I quite literally am "Always Full."

As a result I have virtually unlimited energy in HR. The extra batteries are for extreme situations. Also, learn to not make mistakes like leaving silent running on and burning that block. It's not really that hard, you just have to pay attention.

And for the record....

I totally felt like a super soldier.... like Crysis, in my play through... At "The button" at the end, 5/5 Leg, 4/4 Durmal Armor, 3/3 Cloak, 7/7 Battery, 3/3 Rebreather, 2/2 Typhoon, 1/1 I.L.S., 1/1 social enhancer, 5/8 Arms (strength/max inventory)... with one point left undistributed... With two I couldn't afford to purchase that I had to pass over.

I was super running 200 Health invisible with a max upgraded Silenced SMG with a laser/Max Damage Silenced 10mm w/ laser and tons and tons of mines... off all kinds.

The part where you fight to save malik was amazing. I ran in invisible with the heavy rifle Typhooned the 2 heavy armors, EMP'd the Giant Bot, ate a protein pack, super jumped up a level shot the sniper, turned shot the explosive barrel acrossed at the other sniper, blew him clear off the building... took off running down the hallway, shot 2 guys... had one battery left and lethal takedown the last guy.

Let my life come back, popped 2 hypostims and a protein jar and I was sitting at 200/5... like a boss.

(On the hardest difficulty... that's some super soldier ish.... no?)

Games fine how it is. Think outside the box, be observant... slightly conservative... anticipate the evil things that scream why would I do that The new biochip surgery. And you should do just fine.

Quite honestly... I would like to see an extreme difficulty mode, where your life doesn't regen. Hypostims fill you to 150 if used under 100, +50 used after 100. All other health items stay at their respected values... Just let them stack in the inventory, so they don't take all your space... I think this would of been perfectly do-able and feasible without any other changes to the game... there literally is PLENTY of health packs.

Faenix1
28th Aug 2011, 11:13
Im fine with how it is. :]

Thomac
28th Aug 2011, 13:30
But, Adam IS a super soldier.... so why shouldn't you feel like a super soldier?

I beat the game... on GMDX (Hard) and I never ever got stuck at any part without energy... I came close a few times, but never was I ever stuck on one bar. Cloaking III with Energy Recharge III gives you unlimited cloaking for 7 seconds every 20 seconds. Having all 5 batteries is also pretty awesome. You can cloak for 35 seconds and eat a protein jar and be full again. I do not feel like I wasted praxis on extra batteries... You guys are looking at the energy the opposite way...

"I'm always empty."

I quite literally am "Always Full."

As a result I have virtually unlimited energy in HR. The extra batteries are for extreme situations. Also, learn to not make mistakes like leaving silent running on and burning that block. It's not really that hard, you just have to pay attention.

And for the record....

I totally felt like a super soldier.... like Crysis, in my play through... At "The button" at the end, 5/5 Leg, 4/4 Durmal Armor, 3/3 Cloak, 7/7 Battery, 3/3 Rebreather, 2/2 Typhoon, 1/1 I.L.S., 1/1 social enhancer, 5/8 Arms (strength/max inventory)... with one point left undistributed... With two I couldn't afford to purchase that I had to pass over.

I was super running 200 Health invisible with a max upgraded Silenced SMG with a laser/Max Damage Silenced 10mm w/ laser and tons and tons of mines... off all kinds.

The part where you fight to save malik was amazing. I ran in invisible with the heavy rifle Typhooned the 2 heavy armors, EMP'd the Giant Bot, ate a protein pack, super jumped up a level shot the sniper, turned shot the explosive barrel acrossed at the other sniper, blew him clear off the building... took off running down the hallway, shot 2 guys... had one battery left and lethal takedown the last guy.

Let my life come back, popped 2 hypostims and a protein jar and I was sitting at 200/5... like a boss.

(On the hardest difficulty... that's some super soldier ish.... no?)

Games fine how it is. Think outside the box, be observant... slightly conservative... anticipate the evil things that scream why would I do that The new biochip surgery. And you should do just fine.

Quite honestly... I would like to see an extreme difficulty mode, where your life doesn't regen. Hypostims fill you to 150 if used under 100, +50 used after 100. All other health items stay at their respected values... Just let them stack in the inventory, so they don't take all your space... I think this would of been perfectly do-able and feasible without any other changes to the game... there literally is PLENTY of health packs.You know you could've done exactly that without taking any Energy Cell upgrades, right? The only difference your extra cells made was that you didn't have to switch to your inventory to eat snacks as often, and that's just cosmetic.

Abram730
28th Aug 2011, 15:16
I'm fine with the 1 takedown = 1 cell.
It would be nice if you could do a second one with in rapid succession with less power use.. sort of a pre-charge one cell and chaining a second takedown off what would be wasted power. The second would recharge.

Or say 2-5 seconds of free power for other augs to account for the extra energy of a take down.
An IsPowered timer..
If IsPowered > 0 then takedownpower = takedownpower div 2.
If IsPowered > 0 then AugPowerDraw = 0
IsPowered duration would relate to battery augmentation level and recharge rate.
extra charged pips would overcharge and extend IsPowered as would the primary glucose cell output level.
25% recharge rate
25% number of cells
50% number of charged cells
has reflexes aug 1.5X
or
25% recharge rate
50% number of cells
25% number of charged cells
has reflexes aug 1.5X
= duration.

This would make using points to up the number of pips more desirable.
It would reward situational awareness in a direct assault and help in a stealthy retreat.
What do you think about the idea and not how clear it is that I haven't programed in decades?

alanschu
28th Aug 2011, 17:11
You know you could've done exactly that without taking any Energy Cell upgrades, right? The only difference your extra cells made was that you didn't have to switch to your inventory to eat snacks as often, and that's just cosmetic.

The battery upgrades lets him conserve his snacks because he gets full value for the +2 and +3 cell snacks.


To put it simply, if you have the default of 2 energy cells and run out of energy, you eat a protein bar and end up at 1 energy. If you have 5 energy cells and run out of energy, you eat a protein bar and end up at 1 energy. There's literally no improvement here, and this is true regardless of whether energy is regenerating or not.

You eat a protein jar you're up.... only +2 (at best) energy. You eat the snack pack you still don't get full value for the snack if you're using augs.

Thomac
28th Aug 2011, 18:41
The battery upgrades lets him conserve his snacks because he gets full value for the +2 and +3 cell snacks.If you're being clever about their use you can make sure you always get full value out of the +1 and +2 snacks, you only need the first Energy Cell upgrade to get full value out of the +3 Jar.

Point being, the first upgrade is almost completely useless, and the two upgrades after that are objectively completely useless. They would be great if there were a limit to how many consumables you could use in a given period of time (Something along the lines of "max one consumable every 6 seconds in combat"), so that entering combat with 5 cells rather than 1 or 2 would be a good thing, but since you can just chug it all down instantly there's no point.

sinosleep
28th Aug 2011, 18:50
Why being able to recharge all your cells or why takedowns being free would break the game.

http://youtu.be/kG5lKjA18hc
http://youtu.be/g7EWGdmd1nc



Take downs freeze time and make you immune to damage. This was done cause they decided cinematic melee attacks were cooler than real time ones and dying during a drawn out animation is terribad. With this being the case the player HAS to be regulated in the use of said melee attacks. While you can technically melee everything in the game should you choose to do so, you wouldn't be able to do what I do in those videos throughout the entirety of the game cause there aren't enough consumables. If the takedowns were free though, or if all energy cells recharged you beat the game in no time flat taking no damage whatsoever cause rooms rarely have more 5 or 6 guys, and even when they have more you can also get the double take down augment. You'd just charge in like a psycho, melee everyone, recharge after they die rinse and repeat.

And it's not the only thing that would break the game. Every tried running cloak, and silent movement at the same time? Yeah, trivializes the entire game other than the 3 boss fights. Adam's energy draining abilities are OP, Eidos chose to regulate this by regulating your energy through consumables. It's fine and shouldn't be changed. The only casualty of the energy system as it stands is upgrading to more than the 1 additional energy cell to take full advantage of +3 jars. And frankly fixing that isn't worth breaking the entire game.

There are enough consumables in the game to make good use of energy using augments, just not enough for you to abuse them on a regular basis.

Metatron1337
28th Aug 2011, 18:58
Why would you want to fix something that isn't broken?
You have 2 energy cells, you get one loaded for free, the rest you can fill up with Food which you find in excessive amounts around the levels.
Takedowns consume 1 energy cell because they give you a huge load of exp and are instakill/knockout. Thus being very powerful. If you plan on doing a takedown while stealthed or 2 in a row you just eat a bar and you're set to go.

This isn't some kind of shenanigan to mess with the players, it's a very balanced system in which you have to actually use your brain, manage your resources, time your attacks and use that thing called tactics.
If you can't pull that off you probably don't belong into PC gaming...

Altho I do agree that they should maybe implement fully regenerating energy in the lowest difficulty setting.

flib
28th Aug 2011, 18:58
Not just the first cell will regernate. Any cell that isn't depleted will regenerate. If you want to keep more cells full, just be careful to not keep augs on long enough to deplete one of them.

Thomac
28th Aug 2011, 19:24
The only casualty of the energy system as it stands is upgrading to more than the 1 additional energy cell to take full advantage of +3 jars. And frankly fixing that isn't worth breaking the entire game.You don't have to break the game to fix this (Yes, I do agree that regenerating all would break the game in a really bad way), all you need to do is make the battery cell upgrades worth it somehow, perhaps through something like limiting how often the snacks/jars can be used in combat, so that you're better off starting out with 5 full cells than you are with 0.

Right now there's no real difference.

sinosleep
28th Aug 2011, 19:31
You don't have to break the game to fix this (Yes, I do agree that regenerating all would break the game in a really bad way), all you need to do is make the battery cell upgrades worth it somehow, perhaps through something like limiting how often the snacks/jars can be used in combat, so that you're better off starting out with 5 full cells than you are with 0.

Right now there's no real difference.

And that is something I actually could get behind. Put consumables on a timer.

Rheed
29th Aug 2011, 00:08
The real problem I find is that there are more things than takedowns that use energy cells: cloak, silent running, feromones, heavy lifting, wallbreaking, etc. I understand there should be a way to limit the usage of takedowns, but not at the cost of almost negating the possibility of being able to use other augments, or abusing those candy bars

Something quite balanced ( imho ) could be:
-Leave the energy cell augment as they are, let all your cells regenerate, but at an slower rate the more you have ( maybe x0.25 increased rate or something along the lines, for each cell ). This way, makes the extra cell upgrades worth
-Melee takedowns cost half your current energy cells as long as you have more than one cell always rounding up( ie, you have 2, it costs 1, you have 2.5, it costs 2 ), double takedowns, all your current energy cells as long as you have more than two cells, working the same way as single takedowns. This makes having more than 2 energy cells useful while making takedowns costly

Both of them, let you use your skills and still one ( or two ) takedowns, while only forcing you to eat candybars on though situations, and at the same time would punish the abuse of eating candy bars for using takedowns ( the more energy you have, the more it drains ), but not for using your standard augmentations. Also, as cloak, running and so dry cells slowly, you would only be able to use one or two takedowns at all.

I don't see the problem on limiting takedowns, they are extremely powerful, but it should not be "Takedowns or all my other augmentations" thingie...

sinosleep
29th Aug 2011, 01:20
Except take downs aren't the only thing open to abuse, it's just the most obvious. Again I ask, have any of you guys ran cloak and silent movement at the same time? Cameras? Guards? Drones? Bah, just hit f1 and f4 and sprint to your hearts content. Nothing sees you, nothing hears you, and I was making it through rooms with only 3 bars of energy. Imagine fully upgrading your batteries, batteries that recharged on their own?

I'd go so far as to say basically all of Mr. Jensen's energy draining powers are OP, and as such fairly regulated by power regulation. There's not enough candy to run around doing the kind of **** I was doing in the vids I posted on a regular basis, but there is MORE than enough to use quite a bit of powers on a pretty damned regular basis.

Here's a screen shot of my rambo character having just beaten the FIRST boss.

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa459/sinosleep007/dxhr2011-08-2821-15-27-55.jpg

In that inventory I have

TWELVE one battery restoring candy bars
I have FOUR two battery restoring candy bars
and I haven't even purchased either of the two three battery restoring jars available at every limb clinic at every major juncture of the game

And yeah, I've eaten some. And while that's not a character that cloaks, I do break every single wall I see is breakable, and I use melee kills as often as I can cause they're still fun to me even on my fourth run through Detroit.

So lets not pretend that the game doesn't provide you with enough consumables for energy draining abilities to be PLENTY useful. They're just not going to give you enough to melee kill every single thing in sight, or move silently through every room in a level, or be cloaked for entire levels either.

WhiteWi
29th Aug 2011, 02:12
some people are never setisfied. God... Learn and adopt people stop being cry babies who needs to be walked through game.

Quickjager
29th Aug 2011, 02:27
some people are never setisfied. God... Learn and adopt people stop being cry babies who needs to be walked through game.

Okay, ignorant people like you just drive me crazy, they made a suggestion either agree or disagree with reasonable arguments, or you can continue being a snobby 5 year old who thinks he is a hard core bad@$$. Learn how to spell btw its adapt, unless you were talking about orphans which I don't think you were.

One energy cell regen is fine with me (as I stated before), but I see why they say the energy regen upgrade is useless, honestly at the end of that tree just have a upgrade that enables regen of two batteries that is worth three praxis points, it fair seeing the amount of invesment needed.

Brian175
29th Aug 2011, 02:28
The constant takedowns would be a non-issue if they were in real-time. Matter of fact, if it was in real-time takedowns wouldn't have to take an energy bar further fixing a flawed gameplay decision. Nothing more irritating than icarus smashing guys into shock and having to flip out your stun gun instead of just smacking the **** out of the dude or sneaking up behind a guy and not realizing your battery hasn't recharged yet.

sinosleep
29th Aug 2011, 02:29
The energy regen upgrade isn't the one that's worthless, it's taking additional batteries past the upgrade you need to make full use of +3 jars. The regen is friggen great for impatient people like me.

Tuttle
29th Aug 2011, 02:52
Throw in a few "regen all batteries" robot thingies ala Dues Ex 1. In order to limit people backtracking make those robot thingies limited use.

Also, let Limb Clinics provide a full battery recharge for a small fee (50-100 credits).

Edit: Considering some the areas you visit throughout the game; it isn't like having a recharge robot thing wouldn't be that hard to imagine having walking around. Just throw in some lore or e-mail complaints from NPC's about how they seem to break after the first or second recharge ("Blasted Versalife. Just trying to get more money" or "We're a multi-billion dollar company and we skimp on this? Haha, oh wow.") to lampshade that fact and you will be golden.

MonkeyLungs
29th Aug 2011, 03:05
I liked having to manage my resources. Doing a pacifist/no alarm plathrough on hard the stealth power was godly and was used for those really tough rooms where I just didn't want to be seen at any cost.

If you don't mind being seen at times and doing tactical retreats or busting out your weapon then resource management is not as taxing.

I thought it was quite well balanced.

That said I agree with the person who said earlier that full regen should be available in the easiest difficulty level. Maybe on Normal then 2 batteries recharge, and on hard then only one recharges.

alanschu
29th Aug 2011, 06:11
If you're being clever about their use you can make sure you always get full value out of the +1 and +2 snacks, you only need the first Energy Cell upgrade to get full value out of the +3 Jar.

Point being, the first upgrade is almost completely useless, and the two upgrades after that are objectively completely useless. They would be great if there were a limit to how many consumables you could use in a given period of time (Something along the lines of "max one consumable every 6 seconds in combat"), so that entering combat with 5 cells rather than 1 or 2 would be a good thing, but since you can just chug it all down instantly there's no point.

If by "being clever" you mean "waiting until your augs actually run out, then yeah.

The upgrades are useless if you feel like gaming the system and pausing and/or making sure you mash on the food button while playing. I stopped power gaming years ago and have enjoyed gaming 1000x more ever since. You find it useless, but many others don't. It's a single player game, so I have no beef if you wish to exploit game mechanics. But you're only hurting your own game experience by doing so.

If ruining your game experience is fun for you, then that is your own prerogative.

If the game was multiplayer you'd have a very valid point. But it's not. What you're doing is asking the game developers to save you from yourself with a patch. Of all the things that can be patched, this is exceptionally minor IMO and not one that I would push for with much weight if I was on the team.

Abram730
29th Aug 2011, 16:38
As of now there are 2 power systems.. If it's my idea, the primary unit is a glucose based system one pip.. this can be rapid charged by a secondary system in the gut... the 2nd system uses consumed chemical fuel used as an ingredient in Cyberboost Energy products, also very high in sugar and carbs for glucose production. The secondary is a microbial fuel cell or nanotech ion exchange membranes.The primary system has probably moved from microbial to nanotech. This is a commercially advantageous method do to future sales of consumables.

They could add an advanced military Cellulosic ethanol, alcohol system requiring maxed pips and recharge to activate. Recharges any dead pips from normally non-digestible food(digestive issues: classified) or consumed alcohol. each Cyberboost Energy bar would add one pip plus one ghost point that charges at say 1/5 normal recharge rate. Alcohol adds 1 ghost pip,except beer alc/vol is to low. Something like 1 ghost pip per 2.5 min.

If you used just short of 3 pips the left most one would charge normal.. eat a Cyberboost Energy bar and one instantly charges and the last charges at 1/5th. Max of 3 ghost pips.

What do you think? It requires full investment of PP in the group.

I am fine with the way it is though, but if you are looking to add augs... It should be easy code and encourages putting points into pips. Consensus now is that putting PP into pips is a waste.

Akon
29th Aug 2011, 20:33
The first thing I would try is to change snacks so that eating one applies the regeneration we currently have on the first cell (and partially depleted ones) to all energy cells for a short while. No additional instant recharge. You can't eat anymore until the effect of the previous one ends.
Bigger snack = longer lasting effect.
This accomplishes several things:
- Additional energy cells become much more useful.
- No point in abusing inventory pause to eat.
- Increased strategy requiered since you can't invoke more energy instantly.
- Regeneration upgrades makes snacks more efficient.

Without actually playtesting is hard to tell the adequate numbers but basing it off the numbers I know:
small snack=30 seconds. Equals 1 energy cell with base recharge rate.
medium snack=60 seconds. Equals 2 cells with base recharge
Large snack=90 seconds. Equals 3 cells with base recharge rate.

Recharge rate upgrades will increase how much total energy is gained by charging faster for the same duration and thus obtaining more total energy. All other recharge mechanics stay the same, meaning the initial cell and partially depleted cells recharge, and recharge is halted by energy usage for a period depending on recharge rate upgrade.

Additionally, I think it would be nice to be able to simply sit down and eat to recharge to full in adequate places in the city hubs, and maybe take out and eat food at the spot (not able to obtain a carryable food item) from refrigerators (once per fridge only) and obtain the effect of the large snack.

Akiharho
29th Aug 2011, 23:23
you know for all the people out ther saying that the reason that the game doesnt let you recharge all the batterys is because you could then just recharge and run around in stealth or c.q.c everyone to death and the game would be unfair. ok i can see that stand point but..

are you all forgetting im playing as the most advanced augmented player to date, hello if your fighting me in the first place you already at an disadvantage. i thought the point was to feel like a super powered character and then choose to act accordingly... you know with great power comes great responsibility.
so for me to be the most advance weapon created and be limited by a battery that doesnt recharge past one unless i eat a protein bar, logically makes no sense , other than to hamper the player in some regard.

now also why does jensen need to use power to punch some one with a simple punch, again no logic was used on that one...if anything the stronger i am the less power i would need to knock out an individual...

hes also ex cop/swat and doesnt have a baton, no melee weapon other than using energy. no pistle whip no nothing...

hell even if you decide to charge me for the fancy takedowns what happened to a good ol baton or crowbar to take down an enemy..everything shouldnt cost a bullet or energy

Akiharho
29th Aug 2011, 23:26
or how about a aug that dictates how many batterys you can recharge totally

Enraged Penguin
29th Aug 2011, 23:43
My only problem with the current energy cell system is that the takedowns use up an entire cell to execute. When it's more economic for me to use ammunition on an enemy than it is for me to incapacitate them with my hands then there is a problem.

There are a couple of ways that can be fixed.

1) Reduce the cost of using takedowns so that they don't empty cells.

2) Have all of the cells regenerate even after having been fully depleted.


I'm all for no.1 personally. But if I had to go with no.2, then I would prefer it if they didn't all recharge at once. It would be better if they recharged one at a time, starting from left to right. Like a stamina bar, basically.


I understand the need to limit the use of takedowns, because they are extremely powerful. But for what they are, I really don't like feeling penalized for using them. They should really be the first line of defence (and offence) for stealth players, but as things stand I don't feel comfortable using them in stealth situations since they drain energy that I'll probably need for something else.

Mystermask
29th Aug 2011, 23:51
Just let the simple takedown use 1/2 instead of a full charge, and the double take down a 3/4 charge, and all will be fine.

Waladil
30th Aug 2011, 00:56
First I'd like to make an admission: I played the leaked beta. (After a while I couldn't resist the Deus Ex addiction I've been nursing for the past several years)
They made energy regain a whole lot EASIER since then. In the beta, bars gave you 1/2 a cell, and boxes gave you 1. Not to mention they were much harder to find. (I believe the jars still gave you 3, but I think they were even larger in the inventory.)

So you've gotten a big help already. On the other hand, I agree that the energy storage upgrade is a bit silly. It makes no sense to even get it, really. Just get the recharge speed and be patient for a whopping 20 secs. Anyway, what I thought would be a more balanced method (between the current setup and "recharge all") that doesn't get too complicated is "Recharge 1/2 your max energy naturally, rounded up."

At the beginning, you recharge 1 cell out of 2. Upgrade once and you get 2 out of 3. Then 2 out of 4, and finally 3 out of 5. It provides an incentive to use the energy cell max count upgrade without just giving everyone bat**** tons of energy. Just my two cents, of course. (For anyone talking about things being "too hard" I've just started a new playthrough: Hardest difficulty, never seen by hostiles, only melee nonlethal. It will be difficult, but hey; so far so good, right?)

Oh, and a specific message to whomever was complaining about the ghost/smooth operator bonuses: STFU, mate. This is just about the only good new stealth-based FPS we're gonna get for a while. If you want yet another game to pick up a machinegun and run around shooting everyone you see, those exist. Halo, Call of Duty, Battlefield, etc. etc. etc. This is Deus. Ex.

Kynaeus
30th Aug 2011, 01:27
It would be nice if the dermal armor upgrade giving you immunity to electrified floors also recharged your batteries. Or rather, the level 3 armor gives you immunity and the level 4 gives the damage reduction and battery recharge from electricity.

Zillaxwafer
30th Aug 2011, 02:38
So you've gotten a big help already. On the other hand, I agree that the energy storage upgrade is a bit silly. It makes no sense to even get it, really. Just get the recharge speed and be patient for a whopping 20 secs. Anyway, what I thought would be a more balanced method (between the current setup and "recharge all") that doesn't get too complicated is "Recharge 1/2 your max energy naturally, rounded up."

At the beginning, you recharge 1 cell out of 2. Upgrade once and you get 2 out of 3. Then 2 out of 4, and finally 3 out of 5. It provides an incentive to use the energy cell max count upgrade without just giving everyone bat**** tons of energy. Just my two cents, of course. (For anyone talking about things being "too hard" I've just started a new playthrough: Hardest difficulty, never seen by hostiles, only melee nonlethal. It will be difficult, but hey; so far so good, right?)


I'm not really sold on "you recharge whatever cell you are currently using", so the recharge half is a good idea. However, the "recharge whatever you are on" really only bugged me for one major reason: If I have two bars and I do a takedown, which seems to be (for me at least) one punch to the guy's face, I lose a bar, end of story. If I have one i can keep doing that over and over every few seconds. Thus it seemed like I was penalized for having more than one bar, as takedowns were really all i used energy for (besides cloaking). I don't mind takedowns using energy, but the 1 bar cost is absurd! My character can whip a freaking vending machine at someone for half a bar, but if I punch him i use a full one!?! The energy costs are all messed up everywhere!

Invisibility for 7 seconds = Throwing 2 refrigerators at high speed = one punch
????
yet levitating with energy pulsating everywhere = free? (Icarus flight system)

My solution is simple:
Just make the energy costs proportion to what they actually do.



For instance:
Throwing a fridge is half a bar? Then takedowns should be half a bar. (or half for stun and 3/4 for kill)

Flying? Why is that free? Make it slowly drain energy based on the height you fall, and the stun thing at the end should use half to a full bar! (Just look at the energy pulsating off of him!)

Spinning in a circle and releasing balls of metal is a full bar? Try maybe a quarter!!!!!

The jump upgrade should be set up so you jump normally and use no energy but if you hold it in you jump higher and use like a quarter of a bar to half a bar!

Why is sprinting free? That uses his legs which are cybernetic as well right? if you are going to make punching do something (strenuous activity for the arms) why not make sprinting (strenuous activity for the legs).



Am I right or what? When a punch uses 2X the energy as throwing a refrigerator, don't you think ya kinda messed up somewhere? Hell half the times he doesn't even punch he strangles, or kicks. Come on Eidos, I love the series and have followed it since the first Deus Ex, but this concept frustrated me enough that I had to make an account just so I could rant and hope you hear it! Yes, you already released the game, but can you not release an update? I don't have a PS3 so I don't know if it would work through their network, but I know that Xbox has released updates for games, and I know steam updates games all the time too. So what's stopping you?

P4NCH0theD0G
30th Aug 2011, 04:07
Keep it as is, but make a new Augment:

Energy Siphon Augment: Let's you gain a certain amount of energy from successfully hacking computers, doors, panels or from killed enemies (nothing from unconscious ones).

Give the player a chance to "earn" energy from the environment by doing certain tasks: he's not dependent on his consumables, but the energy also isn't for free. Also something for the re-balancing between lethal and non-lethal: only dead enemies can be "milked" for energy. Maybe give small extra Energy Bonuses for shutting down cameras/turrets/robots.

Aer
30th Aug 2011, 10:15
I'm not sure if someone has posted this idea before, but I wouldn't have thought it too hard to come up with. I can't be bothered reading through yet another battery thread though, so I'm just going to post it anyway.

Multiple recharging batteries is too overpowered. I agree. At the same time, it feels like additional batteries are useless because they all get used on takedowns, so you end up running around on one battery and you have to carry a ton of candybars around in case you want to use a power. I agree this is not the best design.

It seems to be the most logical choice to make the first, rechargable battery, the first one drained.

Think about it - two battery types, one a larger rechargable battery, the others smaller non-rechargable reserve batteries for times when you want to use powers or do multi takedowns. Instead of running around on one battery with a bunch of candybars for cloaking, you're running around on a full energy pack, occasionally performing takedowns is no penalty if you use it with moderation, and if a couple of batteries are empty from a bit of power use you can eat whatever candy you come across to fill them up instead of stockpiling them. Best of all, it doesn't feel like extra batteries are useless since they're full for when you need them. This would also be improved by having battery recharger bots ala Deus Ex 1 strewn about the game.

I think it makes for a much smoother, more logical experience. Any thoughts/criticisms?

Kibou
30th Aug 2011, 11:24
I've been sticking to guns instead of melee takedowns so far, so it wasn't a problem for me, but I understand your concerns: if a task you perform all the time (takedown) empties your precious non-recharging extra cells, it's not very rewarding to ever fill them, let alone invest praxis points to get more of them. Still, I don't think that completely overthrowing the current system (e.g. making all cells regenerate) would be a good solution.

I think some of the ideas posted here are very good and feasible solutions:


It seems to be the most logical choice to make the first, rechargable battery, the first one drained.
Makes perfect sense for me - the less precious resource (the recharging cell) is used before the more precious resources, the non-recharging cells are depleted. Stays very much true to the current system, but makes adding more cells via augs more rewarding.


The first thing I would try is to change snacks so that eating one applies the regeneration we currently have on the first cell (and partially depleted ones) to all energy cells for a short while. No additional instant recharge. You can't eat anymore until the effect of the previous one ends.
Bigger snack = longer lasting effect.
This accomplishes several things:
- Additional energy cells become much more useful.
- No point in abusing inventory pause to eat.
- Increased strategy requiered since you can't invoke more energy instantly.
- Regeneration upgrades makes snacks more efficient.
This is more like a general improvement than a fix for the problem at hand, but the benefits really can't be denied. I also think that it's in general a good idea to make energy bars more effective for ppl who invest heavily into the energy enhancements tree (additional cells, faster recharge etc.).


I'd also like to throw in one more idea:

Since cells recharge unless they are fully depleted, it would be an interesting approach to have augs that increase the maximum charge of your cells (read: make them bigger) instead of adding new ones. Such upgrades would enable you to use certain abilities that would usually fully deplete a cell with some energy remaining and the cell recharging. For example, one such upgrade would enable you to perform a takedown without losing an entire cell.

LuxAngel7
30th Aug 2011, 11:38
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD: REGENERATE ALL OF THEM!!

Seriously, just give us a dlc augment that lets us choose to regenerate all of our cells. I am so tired of being a cybernetic badasz killing machine that has to eat frigin CANDY bars to be able to use my powers. Whoever thought that one up should be fired.

(not to mention that eating a candy bar to only turn the corner and have to bust through a few walls is the MOST frustrating thing EVER. Its just like *man I wish I would have waited to use those candy bars AFTER I busted through that wall* which is really a lame thing to have to tell yourself as this supposedly badazz cybernetic augmented soldier)

Exia
30th Aug 2011, 12:53
I think the easiest to satiate most opinions would be to create an extra augmentation, to recharge them. Expensive of course and one per extra bar that wanted to be recharged for example.

That way those who want the super powered version can do so without worrying about consumables, they did state that the player could play anyway they wanted to right?

Maybe introduce an insane difficulty with this thought that keeps to the current system and less resources to really make you think/manage and plan ahead!

I like the idea or the candies and other edibles being on a timer it would certainly make a player think and time more appropriately!

Locutus of BORG
30th Aug 2011, 14:00
I chose "Make the cells regenerate fully"...

Right now the system makes it kind of dumb to upgrade to multiple batteries in a lot of cases. OTOH, this could unbalance Augs like cloak and whatnot.

However, maybe there should be a middle-ground option where energy refills completely on Easy (and maybe Normal) and the existing system is kept on Normal or Hard.

Itkovian
30th Aug 2011, 14:21
There is nothing wrong with upgrading the number of batteries, so long as you understand the implications and prepare for it.

For example, if you go around with 4 batteries, then you should probably buy the energy booster pills from the LIMB clinics so you can recharge them all at once.

Furthermore, there are many circumstances where having more than one bar is useful even if it it fully depletes a bar. For example, you may want to run to a group of enemies while cloaked, and then fire off a couple of takedowns in a row (or a Typhoon blast, for example).

It is a system that promotes careful resource management. That is a GOOD thing. If you don't want to have to worry about resource management, you are playing the wrong game.

The RIGHT way to play is is to usually go around with just the first bar (even if you upgraded to more batteries... for example in my Deus Ex playthrough I had a total of 3 batteries, and carried around the energy bar boxes), and when you actually need to use more than one battery (such as above), THEN use an energy item to charge more batteries.

In short, do NOT keep all your batteries charged. Just stick with the first one, using energy items to charge the extra batteries when you need them (like a big firefight where you don't want to worry about running out of cloak energy quickly, a series of takedowns, boss battles, etc.)

If you are going around with all batteries charged and constantly afraid of draining one of them, then you are doing it wrong.

Itkovian

Exia
30th Aug 2011, 15:12
Here's a thought why not just have a new game+ for those who want the power rush second play through :)

Although it kind of does make it super easy mode in a way, since it is not an incredibly difficult game anyway.

Kudos to the developers really, because it is enjoyable overall, despite the minor niggles we all have!

Desolution
30th Aug 2011, 16:08
Having beaten the game on Hard (GMDE, whatever you wanna call it), getting every Ghost, Smooth Operator and using a none-lethal takedown on practically every enemy (skipping any that I couldn't figure out how to Ghost), I find the current system is perfectly playable, enjoyable and tactical. That said, I would want to play the game with a different energy system for comparison and for a different experience. A few I'd consider that aren't too game breaking are:

Total energy regeneration when there are no enemies within a certain distance/in city hubs, and no regeneration (or very slow regeneration) in combat. This way, energy bars would feel like limited tools to be used strategically, but you wouldn't be able to, or even want to, stealth/silent run through every level, or spam takedowns.

As mentioned above, the first ("free") regenerating cell is used first. That means that running around with spare tanks isn't going to waste the moment you want to hulk-smash a wall.

Simply reduce costs so that anything that currently costs 1 cell costs 3/4 of a cell or something similar. This way, again, having more than 1 cell isn't instantly wasted whenever a wall is smashed.

Or at the very least, make LIMB clinics restore all of your energy (for a small fee posibly, also mentioned above). That way the maximum amount of energy will actually mean *something*...

Oh, and for reference, even with seven seconds of stealth every 20, getting through the game without fighting anything at all is ridiculously easy on pretty much every level (a few short sequences, such as saving a certain someone are, of course, the exception)

Tusc
30th Aug 2011, 18:14
The easiest way to fix the battery recharge would be just to put the one rechargeable battery at the other end.

So say you have 4 full batteries, the first takedown you do would use up the rechargeable battery, and if you wait to do another takedown, it recharges. If you need to do two or more battery depleting actions quickly, it starts using up your reserves.

P4NCH0theD0G
30th Aug 2011, 20:40
Keep it as is, but make a new Augment:

Energy Siphon Augment: Let's you gain a certain amount of energy from successfully hacking computers, doors, panels or by "energy milking" killed enemies (nothing from unconscious ones).
Give the player a chance to "earn" energy from the environment by doing certain tasks.

or

Energy Siphon Tool: A reusable high-tech tool (must be carried in inventory) that enables the user to siphon off a small amount of energy from surrounding electrical devices - Warning: Resulting Energy Fluctuations will attract guards to investigate. (DLC)

or

Recharge Augment:Another slot on the Energy Augment that only unlocks when all other Energy Upgrades are bought. Recharges fully depleted Bars; starts after significant waiting period without Energy Use (45-60 seconds), continues at full re-charge rate until bar is full, then another waiting period for the next bar.


All in all, I would like to get away from the consumables for Energy Recharging and let the player either "earn" Energy by completing certain tasks or risking unwanted (lethal) attention, or just give the people that invest enough points into the Energy Bars a final augment like above that eventually recharges all bars (but it takes a while).

Doing things good should earn you energy. Unless you're willing to pay for it.

GAMEBOY 731
30th Aug 2011, 23:30
So let me get this right, Adam Jensen is a bad-ass and/or super-soldier, but in the middle of sneaking through an enemy base he has to stop for a snack (I am quoting a review of this game I think in Gameinformer that perfectly points out a big problem in this game).

The problem is that this game is supposed to be a power fantasy (like most games), the problem in that is that some people have different definitions of that.

@singularity doesn't like pulled punches, he wants it to be hard.
@black-xero wants it easy
@whitewi likes it the way it is

And many of us ( myself included )wants it somewhere in the middle.
I have my rechargeable batteries fully upgraded, it only takes 20 sec to charge a battery if I could charge three batteries it would take one full minute to charge.
If I upgraded my battery capacity to five and be able to charge three that would be fine with me.

@feepingcreature said "add a 2-praxis upgrade to allow all-but-one regeneration somewhere in the middle of the energy bar upgrade chain".
That sounds like a good idea to me, it gives most people what they want, and if you don't want it don't take it.

In the end I don't know if they can patch the game to add new augmentations but if they can I hope they do, not as some five dollar DLC package, but a sincere update/patch to the game.

P4NCH0theD0G
31st Aug 2011, 02:54
I could have totally gone with the Snack-Thing if they had explained it a little more, like:

"Due to his augmentation, the advanced bio-enhanced metabolism of subject A.Jensen allows him to convert nutrients, proteins and amino-acids directly into electrical energy, employing a complex glucose-based nano-fusion-chain in conjunction with a genetically engineered retro-virus."

"Uhm. Translate that from Nerd for me?"

"The things I have to.... *sigh* Uhm, well, when his batteries are low, he eats a Snickers."


The way it is, it's just... funny. In a sad way. Maybe it's a sort of humor I don't understand...

samssf
31st Aug 2011, 04:41
Here's what I posted to the gamespot forum on this topic. It's my complaint about the energy cells, and the script I use with Cheat Engine to "fix" the problem by replenishing the fifth (or whatever your last energy cell is) if and only if you still have the other cells charged. This is the only thing I could come up with that sorta makes it more balanced without actually making things too easy or making nutrients completely useless.

- The game currently recharges the first cell, probably because if it didn't work that way, people would get stuck when feeling they need to bust through a wall to continue, or knock out a gaurd, etc, and don't have any nutrients.

- Because of the above, this will cause most players to realize that if they wait, they can simply takedown as many gaurds as possible in order to pass an area.

- Because of all of the above, players won't eat their nutrients, and will feel like they are penalized if they eat nutrients to refill their energy bars, *and then* do a takedown. They've spent energy that wasn't free, when it could have been free energy if it was recharged automatically (like the first bar).

- Therefore, players are penalized for performing a takedown when they have more than one full energy cell.

- Energy bars *are not* plentiful. "Plentiful" is relative and subjective. Given a big area like the FEMA facility, there are dozens of gaurds and tons of rooms. If you only took down one gaurd in each room, you would need dozens of energy bars. And that's *without* using any other energy-consuming abilities. Of course, if you play with just one energy bar, you can just recharge it while crawling through a vent, and then use the recharged cell. That's why the system is broken... it promotes play with only one cell, when there's plenty of use for having multiple cells full.

- Players who choose to "wait around" or choose to just go through with only one energy cell charged (and not use nutrients) shouldn't get "free" energy for takedowns, etc.

- Making all the energy bars recharge *does* make the game too easy and makes nutrients completely worthless (I've tried it).

Solution: Well, in my opinion the best solution would be to have takedowns and other essential things (like blasting through walls) either use a portion of an energy cell (which will recharge if it's not completely used) or to make takedowns and cool stuff like cloaking, silent footsteps, use a different resource.

Since the above won't happen with this game, you can get Cheat Engine 6.1 (freeware, thanks to whoever posted that earlier) and use the following script, which will recharge the last cell (assuming you have 5 energy cells) IF you haven't used more energy than that. Reasoning: If you use resources to fill up your energy completely, you aren't penalized for using 1 takedown. So it's like you had one energy bar and used one takedown... If you have five bars filled completely, and use one takedown, you'll have four bars left, and then the last bar will recharge again.

Script. Note this may not work with future builds of the game!!
------------------------------------------------------

local addr = "[[[[[dxhr.exe+00BC3348]+130]+10]+4]+11c]+1fc";
local f = createForm( true );
local t = createTimer( f, true );
timer_setInterval( t, 1000 );

timer_onTimer( t, function( )
local energy = readFloat(addr);
local numberOfBars = 5;

local lastBarStart = (30.0 * (numberOfBars-1));
local lastBarEnd = 30.0 * numberOfBars;
if (energy >= lastBarStart and energy < lastBarEnd) then
writeFloat(addr, energy + 0.01);
end
end );

------------------------------------------------------

Change the "numberOfBars" assignment to be however many bars you have.

1) Start deus ex
2) Alt + tab out of the game
3) Open Cheat Engine 6.1
4) Select the computer icon in Cheat Engine (select a process to open) and choose dxhr.exe
5) Open the Table menu in Cheat Engine
6) Choose "Show Cheat Table Lua Script"
7) Paste the above script and hit Execute
8) Done

P4NCH0theD0G
31st Aug 2011, 05:22
I'm by now at the point where I would even welcome if all the Energy Bars just re-charged outside of missions/combat. Slowly, very slowly, but still, all bars. Even the mentioned re-charge stations inside Limb Clinics.
I can accept having to recharge (eat stuff) while on a mission, but not while running around the city hubs. It would make upgrading them a lot more attractive if you knew that at a certain point you would get all of them filled again without having to eat stuff (I mean "recharge").

Prefer I would of course the afore mentioned "earn your energy" mechanic:

Energy Siphon Aug: Gain small amounts of Energy from Hacking Computers, Doors, Panels or "energy milking" dead enemies.
Makes you earn the energy you need to jump-start regeneration for an energy bar.

or

Energy Siphon Tool: Portable, reusable tool that can drain small amounts of energy from nearby electrical devices (computers, cameras, turrets, etc.) Warning: Resulting Energy Fluctuations will attract guards to investigate.
Comes with a very low recharge rate for consecutive uses (45-60 sec.) and alarmed guards; has to be carried in inventory; makes you earn the energy to jump-start regeneration.

Come on. You should be able to earn enough energy to jump-start regeneration by performing certain actions. It makes sense. It encourages playing the game. It is immensely gratifying.

You can all start to agree with me, now.

xAcerbusx
31st Aug 2011, 05:28
The problem really isn't with the energy cell regeneration at all. It's with the fact that energy bars and other regenerative food is too hard to come by. It's a resource management issue.

While you're walking past noodle bars in Hengsha, it was all I could do not to grab my monitor with both hands and shout "WHY WON'T YOU SELL ME FOOD!?! I NEED ENERGY!!!"

P4NCH0theD0G
31st Aug 2011, 05:49
Just give us ways to "Earn" energy instead of having to depend on Snickers.

P4NCH0theD0G
31st Aug 2011, 20:11
If there won't be a way to "earn" some energy without eating, I'd even be happy now, if they let the first two energy bars re-charge...

The thing that's bugging me the most, is that you cannot do combo-moves without losing one energy bar. You know, Cloak+ Typhoon, Silent Running+Double-Takedown etc... Like there was this one very nice moment, where I had three guys in a tight half-circle below me, and I Icarus'ed down behind them, and with the silent landing augment they didn't realize I was there and I typhooned them without ever getting a "Hostile" to ruin my Ghost bonus. And I thought, "Damn. That was nice... But, damn, now I have to eat a snack." It felt like I got punished for doing something pretty cool...

Shralla
31st Aug 2011, 20:45
And I thought, "Damn. That was nice... But, damn, now I have to eat a snack." It felt like I got punished for doing something pretty cool...

So you should just be able to do everything all the time for free? That seems to be the gist of everyone's argument who is in favor of COMPLETELY BREAKING THE GAME just so you can feel like a constant badass. You didn't get punished you whiny brat, there's a COST for doing something cool, and you have to pay it. Only you don't even really pay anything, BECAUSE THE FIRST ONE REGENERATES ON ITS OWN.

With viewpoints like yours, it's a wonder this game didn't just end up being Call of Duty.

Akimbo
31st Aug 2011, 20:56
I think they should all regenerate. However the time for them to do so could increase for each cell after the first. Probably in increments of 10s. So if your first cell took 30s to recharge, the second would take 40s, 3rd 50s, 4th 60s, 5th 70s. Fully recharging all 5 cells: 4 mins 10 seconds. This way I feel that the energy recharging items would still be useful.

(Those would be times with the regen augs fully upgraded.)

P4NCH0theD0G
31st Aug 2011, 21:02
So you should just be able to do everything all the time for free? That seems to be the gist of everyone's argument who is in favor of COMPLETELY BREAKING THE GAME just so you can feel like a constant badass. You didn't get punished you whiny brat, there's a COST for doing something cool, and you have to pay it. Only you don't even really pay anything, BECAUSE THE FIRST ONE REGENERATES ON ITS OWN.

With viewpoints like yours, it's a wonder this game didn't just end up being Call of Duty.

It's so nice to feel appreciated. And even nicer to be welcomed by a tolerant and grammatically correct community that cherishes the right to voice your opinion without fear of awkwardly worded reprisals.

But no, I don't want "everything all the time for free". I posted numerous times that I would prefer a mechanic that lets you "earn" energy through an augment by performing certain tasks (such as hacking), siphon off energy from electrical devices (computers, cameras etc.) at the cost of causing an "Alarmed" state for nearby guards that will come to investigate, while completely abolishing the possibility of recharging with consumables. Energy should be earned, not be carried around in candy bars.

Sadly, chances of that being implemented are slim to minute, in part because of open-minded, respectful and well-spoken individuals like yourself.

Also, I feel the need to point out that I actually "did" pay for the mentioned combo-move, specifically with my second energy bar. You cannot perform any such combo-moves with only one bar, as you should surely be aware of.

But thank you so much for your input, it was constructive and most enlightening.

P4NCH0theD0G
31st Aug 2011, 21:06
After further deliberation I suggest a slightly different approach:

A new Augment, in the last third of the Energy Bar Tree, that... EXPANDS THE REGENERATION FROM ONE BAR TO TWO BARS.
As long as you don't use two full energy bars at once they will regenerate. Thus making Combo-Moves penalty-free, while at the same time increasing the incentive to add more energy bars.

Now lower the regeneration rate, and even the whiny brats that want to feel so superior with their "resource management skills" cannot complain that you can do everything all the time.

And just like that, I solved it.

All Hail Me!

Quillan
31st Aug 2011, 21:13
I don't think anything NEEDS to be done to "fix" the system; it's quite playable as it is if you're careful. It's probably like the ammo system, they found that the game became more enjoyable by forcing the player to ration his resources.

Now, that said, I would have done it differently. Here's how I think I would have done it, keeping the same number and basic format of augmentations in the energy tree, while making the ones that give bonus energy worth taking:

1) Base energy with the augmentations you get free is 80 points, broken up into bars of 10 points each, meaning you start with 8 bars.
2) Each upgrade that gives energy adds 40 more points, 4 bars each, for a final upgrade total of 20 bars (200 points).
3) The only free regeneration would come from the free upgrade, which would be VERY slow, about 1 point of energy per minute of real time.
4) There would be additional consumables in the game in the form of food. All food would provide increased regeneration in the form of X points of energy per second for Y seconds. The cyber food would provide greatly increased regeneration over regular food for a far shorter period of time. Normal food might provide .1 point of energy per second for 3600 seconds (1 hour real time). With normal food and base regen, 1 minute of real time would give you back 7 points of energy, not even 1 full bar, but it would eventually regenerate fully. The cyber consumables would give you that sudden boost you might need in certain circumstances.
5) The first regeneration upgrade you buy would give you a 50% boost in consumable regeneration. The second would give you a 50% increase in duration of consumable regeneration. The final one would double both bonuses.
6) The cost of takedowns would be based on context rather than flat. One of the loading tips said enemies come in light, medium, and heavy varieties. Heavy enemies would cost more to take down than lights. Surprised enemies would be cheaper to take down than aware ones. A double takedown on two heavies might well cost 2-3 bars if they saw you coming.

mattlistener
31st Aug 2011, 21:14
One of the (excellent) design goals is that no one aspect of gameplay should dominate. That is why ammo is limited -- if you try to solve all problems with one gun, you run out, so you have to use your judgment for when that is the right gun to use.

If they failed in this design goal, then the overwhelming complaint would be "they say they encourage a variety of approaches, but really most of the game can be reduced to X." That would be a far greater failure.

If takedowns were free, or all bars regenerated, then you could do almost all combat with takedowns. The game allows you to do back-to-back takedowns, but it uses consumables, so if you try to do everything that way, you run out -- perfect. If that's your favorite part of the game, you can enhance it with double-takedown, move silently, cloak, regen and more bars -- perfect.

If waiting for energy regen is getting you down, let that be your guide to use other tools in your toolbox than your favorite hammer.

Shralla
31st Aug 2011, 21:35
Thus making Combo-Moves penalty-free

And you're still calling the payment a "penalty." Is the money you use to buy gas a "penalty" for driving?

P4NCH0theD0G
31st Aug 2011, 22:05
The perception of a penalty is subjective and has been echoed many times around here. Even if you wish, in an objective reality where consumer demands will and should shape product specifics you cannot ignore that.

And for the sake of repetitiveness, I do not want any changes to the recharge system. I would still prefer the possibility to earn energy through your actions or get it from the environment, instead of having a snack.
What sounds better to your understanding and feel of the game:
a) "I need some energy so let's find a computer to hack so I can jump-start one of my cells into recharging."
b) "I need energy, so let's use my Siphon Tool to get some from that camera, but I have to be quick and careful because using the tool will alarm all enemies nearby."
or
c) "I need some energy. Snickers-Break."

I don't want a change to the regeneration, I want a different delivery system. You should have to earn your energy by doing something in tune with the game, not simply being able to buy it and run around with, for all purposes, unlimited energy because you stocked up on Nutrients. How is that not having everything all the time?

But if a change were made, then I would add an augment to expand the regeneration from one to two energy bars. It will open up more gameplay options, encourage experimentation and increase the incentive to acquire more bars. And still it wouldn't be free. You'd have to spend several praxis points to get it. Hell, make it a 2-point augment in the energy tree, or a 3-point augment. Make it a sacrifice you won't take lightly. Or make it a choice that will lock-down another augment you cannot get afterwards. Say you can either choose between two recharging bars or getting more than two bars. If you choose the two recharging bars you're stuck at two bars for the rest of the game.

But the choice should be there. If you don't want it, cool, but the choice should be there. This game boasts that it's all about your choice as a user to play the game however you want to play it. If I want to fully commit to constant augmentation use, I should have the choice to do so. It should cost me, and dearly, but the game should not force me to deviate from my chosen gameplay style with something as cheap as an energy restriction enforced by limited consumables.

Kibou
1st Sep 2011, 13:58
I think the base of this this whole issue, or the base of this whole thing being perceived as an issue, are certain discrepancies / inconsistencies in the current system:

1.) On the one hand, energy is treated as a rather precious resource: the snacks you need to gain it are rather sparse, and they only restore a limited amount. There isn't something like the repair bots in DX1 that provide an unlimited supply. The actions you can perform are rather expensive (e.g. you can perform two takedowns with both your default cells full, while you can kill several enemies with one box of ammo).

2.) On the other hand, your cells will easily and quickly be drained by performing rather simple, frequently repeated operations, like takedowns on a Stealth approach. The only economic way to deal with this is to have all extra cells empty most of the time, and rely on the one that refills.

3.) On the other hand, you want to put all those cool augs the game offers to good use, so when there is a situation where a certain special ability might come in useful (or might just be fun), you want to be ready - but you won't be if your cells are empty. If a situation calls for quick reflexes, you might not be able to use snacks in time, and even if you manage to eat some energy bars while surrounded by enemies attempting to shoot you, it won't feel right. Also, having to perform an additional task (using those energy bars) each time you want to use a special ability is bothersome, and discourages use of this abilities altogether.


If I assume my explanation hits the mark, the best solution really would be to make the rechargeable cell the one that is always used first - this way the expendable resource would kind of be assigned to the frequent, common tasks, while the precious resource, the non-recharging cells, would be reserved for special tasks. You'd be able to always have some full cells ready, enabling you to use your special abilities when you need them.
Of course, such a change would greatly increase the total energy available to the player throughout the game, so to balance the whole thing it would be necessary to reduce the energy you gain - e.g. to reduce the effect of energy bars back to half a cell.

To increase the energy you gain, or to add further means to gain energy, wouldn't fix the source of the problem, but just make the results less noticeable by making the whole energy-management aspect easier and less important.

ilweran
1st Sep 2011, 16:12
Also, having to perform an additional task (using those energy bars) each time you want to use a special ability is bothersome, and discourages use of this abilities altogether.

So far I'm not finding this to be a problem. In the original games you had to use energy cells to recharge, I don't see that having to eat a candy bar is that different - and restricted numbers of them is possibly a good thing. My last play through of IW I had 20 energy cells when I reached the end and just used cloak and/or thermal cloak for pretty much the whole level.

DX1 did have the power recirculator aug though...

P4NCH0theD0G
1st Sep 2011, 17:13
It all comes down to perception. I perceive Jansen to be a king amongst men, a super soldier. The use of candy bars seems artificially humbling to me, not to mention absolutely ridiculous considering the whole High-Tech setting.
"I'm RoboCop. I run on potato energy."
The high cost of very common actions like takedowns discourages the combination of augments, and once again, creates what seems to me a very artificially introduced barrier to freedom of play. Add to that the rareness of nutrients, or the staggering size of Nutrient packs (that don't even stack) and the more I think about it, the more annoying it gets. Why did I invest five praxis points into my leg augment so I can fall down silently behind enemies, if I then cannot do a takedown or Typhoon attack without first having eaten a candy bar? Am I really the only one feeling a jarring inconsistency with the story setting in this?

I want to be able to get energy from my environment. Period.

Failing that, I want to be able to do an augment-combo-move (i.e. Cloak-Takedown) without having to eat something first.
Either make an aug to regenerate two bars (preferable), or make takedowns empty the remainder of a bar - so that the first bar enables you to cloak or silent-run and then do a takedown as long as you have a little energy left (not so preferable).

I keep coming back to earning energy from the environment, from hacking or something... Not a lot, just a little to jumpstart one cell into recharge and you can't do it twice on the same device. It would so totally make sense. It would encourage people to hack a little more, it would make experimentation with different augs less of a drag, (I used to save, then experiment, then load again, because I didn't want to waste my precious candy bars...), it would make you actually feel like the augmented being you purportedly are.

I wonder if people would be so much against a change if this were Captain America and you'd have to eat a candy bar every time you want to throw your shield at more than one person...

cookj71
1st Sep 2011, 17:33
Fixes after a release, hardly happen unless you do it in such a way that very little code is needed or changed.

No power should use 100% of a cell, so recharge is possible if someone micro-manages their powers.
If downed enemy inventory is random in any way make power bars more likely to spawn.
Changing the inventory size of an item is likely too much work, but have a large supply of power bars at the LIMB clinic might be easy to implement; any store actually.
It might be too much code but allow all the batteries to recharge, just make it take a lot longer, and power bars obviously boost this.


my 2 cents.

P4NCH0theD0G
1st Sep 2011, 18:12
DLC could pretty much change everything they wanted in that regard:

A new aug to get energy from hacking or dead enemies, an aug that recharges any two cells instead of one, a siphon tool to get energy off of electrical devices but alerting guards...
I would definitely buy DLC just for those three things. And they would fit, too. (You hear that? There's money to be made, here! Money!)

I have to admit that I might not feel so strongly about it, if they were indeed batteries and not candy bars. I wrote that before, I can see how it might feel very Sci-Fi High-Tech to create electrical energy out of nutrients, but they would have had to explain that very explicitly. With the right presentation it could have been a "Wow, cool" thing, not a "weird, just weird" thing...

Itkovian
1st Sep 2011, 18:27
Again, there is nothing wrong with the system. It is a question of managing resources properly, that's all.

You just need to accept that only the first battery recharges, and play accordingly.

Basically, do not charge those extra batteries unless you really need them at that precise moment (or, I guess, if you run out of space for nutrient items, so you might as well eat what you find then).

When going around doing your usual things, stick to the first battery and leave the others empty. When the need arises to boost your energy (to perform a takedown while cloaked, for example, which requires 2 batteries), THEN you should eat something and charge up a battery or two.

There is no reason to keep more than 1 battery charged at all times, and if you only use the first battery you can be free to do whatever you want knowing that you're not going to punish yourself by using up a battery that won't recharge itself. You will find yourself much more willing to perform activities that use up a battery since you know it will recharge.

It's that simple. This is how I play, and I've never run out of energy items (and perform multi-battery actions all the time).

Thank you.

Itkovian

P4NCH0theD0G
1st Sep 2011, 21:49
I'm going to post one more thing on this, then I give up. Honestly.

I like the takedowns. Yet I do not do them unless I have only the first bar charged. Why? Because I know I can get that energy back. If I have two bars full, I find some other way. And I'm thinking "Damn, I could do a nice takedown here, but... nah. I'd lose the energy. Let's save it." Now whether or not this is merely psychological... well, it probably is. Yet it seems to be persistent and aggravating enough that people keep urging for a change.



Basically, do not charge those extra batteries unless you really need them at that precise moment (or, I guess, if you run out of space for nutrient items, so you might as well eat what you find then).

When going around doing your usual things, stick to the first battery and leave the others empty. When the need arises to boost your energy (to perform a takedown while cloaked, for example, which requires 2 batteries), THEN you should eat something and charge up a battery or two.


This has actually been the only valid argument against any change I could find here. It's as much of an explanation of sensible energy use as you can hope for. And probably the best way to work with the system we have.

Still, it is in the nature of video-gamers to want your stuff to be full. You take as much of everything you can get, weapons, ammo, health packs... If you have the inventory space you will pick it up.
In the same spirit, I think having those empty four energy bars all the time just bugs the hell out of people. They look down there and think:

"Gosh dang, I paid in praxis for those and they're just... empty all the time... It bugs the hell out of me."

So once they use one, they fill them up, and feel angry because they had to fill them up for something that, had they only had the one bar, would've cost them nothing. Still they fill them up, not because they need to, but because years and years of games have conditioned them to think they need to.

If there were no augs to increase your number of energy bars, and every candy bar/box/pack just added a one-time bonus of energy bars to yours - up to a maximum of five total bars; a single-use-only Energy Bonus, I bet most of the people here wouldn't even have thought about changing it. I know, that's basically the way it is, but it doesn't seem that way. If they made it more clear that the energy bar upgrades are only increasing the amount of energy you can HAVE AT ONE TIME, that would make it a lot easier to understand.

That said, I still believe that:


The takedown/augment/takedown+augment energy dynamic should have been different, to make augmented takedowns more easily available, to support the game feeling and encourage experimentation (without reloads).

There should be ways OTHER than candy bars to EARN energy from your environment through hacking, a special tool etc.

Without a better explanation of WHY and HOW "candy bars" (of all things) are used to recharge energy, and not, say... batteries, the candy bars are one of the biggest immersion killers I've had with this game.


Done and Done.

--
I hope for DLC:

Energy Siphon Aug: Gain small amounts of Energy from Hacking Computers, Doors, Panels or "energy milking" dead enemies.

Energy Siphon Tool: Portable, reusable tool that can drain small amounts of energy from nearby electrical devices (computers, cameras, turrets, etc.) Warning: One use per device; Very Low Recharge Rate; Resulting Energy Fluctuations will attract guards to investigate.

or, if all else fails

Energy Recirculator Aug: Expands Energy Regeneration to two Energy Bars.

NO MORE CANDY!

Raditude
2nd Sep 2011, 03:59
Do people really like watching takedown cutscenes that much? I was incredibly glad when they limited regeneration to one. That was enough to ensure the option was there, but not an insta win.
Maybe make energy bars available at more vendors, I don't want the temptation to walk into a room and own everything. That to me is no fun.

ruminate
2nd Sep 2011, 04:11
It all comes down to perception. I perceive Jansen to be a king amongst men, a super soldier. The use of candy bars seems artificially humbling to me, not to mention absolutely ridiculous considering the whole High-Tech setting.
"I'm RoboCop. I run on potato energy."
<snip>

Actually, if you watched the first movie, RoboCop runs on gerbers. Thats more humbling, ridiculous, and not as tasty as a snickers. ;)

LaMOi
2nd Sep 2011, 09:39
Its a massive problem in this game........

Ive been playing most of the time, hiding and waiting for my one battery to re-charge before I make my next move... Its ridiculous.

This whole game is far too stingy... Cos there really isnt an abundance of Candy Bars to buy or find either..... So what gives? They do need to change this system.

Kibou
2nd Sep 2011, 10:22
So far I'm not finding this to be a problem. In the original games you had to use energy cells to recharge, I don't see that having to eat a candy bar is that different...
The point is that you need to eat them right before you use your special ability. So it's not like "whoa, I'm surrounded by enemy soldiers, I'll quickly activate the Typhoon to get rid of them in a supercool way!", but more like "I'll quickly bring up the inventory, eat energy bars while the game is paused, then return to the game, and if the delay doesn't get me shot, I'll then activate the Typhoon to kill them in a way that feels unnatural and like cheating!", and most likely it'll rather be like "Heck, I'll just plain shoot them!".


I want to be able to get energy from my environment. Period.
As I explained before, this wouldn't fix the problem, but just cover is up to some extend: If more is available, energy wouldn't be as precious a resource anymore, so the discrepancy between "energy is precious" and "energy is used for minor, common tasks all the time" wouldn't be as obvious.


You just need to accept that only the first battery recharges, and play accordingly
That's not the solution, but part of the problem. Please refer to my analysis in my previous post for details (no use in re-posting all of it).

Headstriker
2nd Sep 2011, 12:13
Half of them would be good, was a bit dissapointed that only 1 is regenerated.

But on the other hand takedowns would be very easy then and you can spend your credits on the bigger Cyberboostjars with the tradeoff to carry less other junk, like weapons/ammo or simply explore the hubs to find more.

I think the devs thought this through and left it with 1 bar to make it more challenging. more than 2-3 energy cells is only good if you carry lots of Cyberbooststuff with you.

Hitman470
2nd Sep 2011, 13:02
I think that there should be an upgrade\aug, at the end of the upgrade tree for example, that allows to regenerate 2 cell completely. It seem pretty balanced.

jdamien75
2nd Sep 2011, 17:09
Actually, if you watched the first movie, RoboCop runs on gerbers. Thats more humbling, ridiculous, and not as tasty as a snickers. ;)

Not to mention the effects of a pure mush diet on a regular human body. Gives a whole new, and entirely unpleasant, meaning to the tech phrase "core dump" when you think about GerberCop. :lol:

DarrowsLaw
2nd Sep 2011, 18:02
Either the 3 and 5 battery upgrades should allow you to regenerate 1 additional battery (allowing for 3 total batteries and heavy-active augment choices), or vending machines should be able to dispense 1 protein bar.

Even with that, punching people in the face shouldn't consume an entire battery. 50% maybe, but it really breaks the immersion when I'm stuck with one battery and unable to cloak because I can't knock them out if I do.

MaxxQ1
2nd Sep 2011, 18:33
I didn't read the entire thread, so apologies if this has already been mentioned.

I think in this case, HR should have lifted the bioenergy mechanic straight and in its entirety from DX. For those not familiar with it, you have 100 points of BE (bioenergy). Using an augmentation will deplete that resevoir at varying rates, depending on the aug, or the number of augs used. The resevoir *does not* recharge over time. To refill your BE, you need to either use biocells from your inventory (DX allows a stack of 30 in a single inventory slot, and each cell adds 25 points of BE), or hook up to a maintenance bot (there are usually at least one or two per location/level in DX, and they give you a full recharge all at once).

By removing an option (the maintenance bots), I think HR hurt itself (especially since this goes against the "choice" mechanic that is a major selling point of the game). EM have claimed that they went with regen health because they didn't want to break the flow of action by having the player backtrack to find medkits or other consumables to replenish their health. Funny thing is, if you want to maintain maxxed-out health, you still need to do that. The same thing applies to bioenergy in HR - you have recharging (to a point), but if you want more, you *still* have to find consumables. Regen health and energy haven't eliminated backtracking - it *may* have reduced it, but not all that much.

If EM were to change it (I know it's too late to do that with this game, but for the next one...) to be more like DX, I think it would be fine. I don't even think they would need to add more consumables (for either health or energy), as there seems to be plenty scattered everywhere. I have a pile of the boxed candy and the jars back at Adams apartment that I never carry, as the single bars that I have in my inventory are enough to do the job. Also, I can live without having "maintenance bots" around - that would help maintain the balance and forward motion that EM wanted. As it was, in DX, by the endgame, I was ignoring biocells as I had the max amount already in my inventory, and maintenance bots seemed to be around every corner.

Also, the stacks of candy bars should be raised in the inventory. It's ridiculous that there's only five to a stack. Hell, I can get ten real-life candy bars in one pocket of my jeans (if I actually ate them, or wanted to carry that many in my pockets). In general, I think stack sizes need to be raised all across the board. I understand the reasoning they had for limiting them this much, but I think it's a bit *too* limited.

P4NCH0theD0G
2nd Sep 2011, 20:28
So I break my vow not to post anymore on this thread to ultimately throw in my lot with the

"Let the Last Energy Bar be the one that recharges, not the first" crowd.

Like, if you have three bars and do a normal take-down, it uses the third (last) bar, but then recharges it fully. So after a while you once again have three bars.
It is in fact not much different from the way it is now, but it eliminates the "Oh no! I'm surrounded! Let's eat some candy so I can kick some but't!" moments. It lets you walk around with two or more bars and do your normal stuff (up to take-downs and wall-smashing) without losing an energy bar each time, so if you should get into a situation where quick destruction is of the essence you come prepared. No Snickers-Break. Everything else stays the same, Energy is still not free, combo-moves still need two bars, and the limiting factor of available resources is still present.
The only thing that changes is that you can navigate the levels with all your bars charged, and won't get the feeling that you get penalized for keeping all your bars charged.


Apart from DLC that introduces my (patented) Energy Siphon Mechanics, this will probably be the only thing we could realistically hope for. I know I do.

chabbles
2nd Sep 2011, 20:44
you should be able to use a praxix point to upgrade each energycell u have unlocked to auto recharge, like u can do for the first(default) energy cell u start with

flib
2nd Sep 2011, 21:12
My only complaint about is it that there should be some kind of way to recharge between missions in a hub or something. Go to the Sarif HQ lounge and eat a sandwich ffs.

Akon
2nd Sep 2011, 21:20
hook up to a maintenance bot (there are usually at least one or two per location/level in DX, and they give you a full recharge all at once).
Thats why I suggested that there should be places in the city hubs were you can sit down to eat and fully recharge, and possibly be able to eat out of a refrigerator one time per fridge.

P4NCH0theD0G
2nd Sep 2011, 21:26
Once more I will say it:

Let the Last Energy Bar be the one that recharges. Not the First.

So I came back from a boss fight. After I totally owned said boss, I spent some time looking around for loot and ammo. Found an Energy Jar. I didn't want to carry the thing around, but I had emptied two cells so I just used it on the spot: all three cells at full power.
And then, the second I step out of the hover-heli-thingee, I see a breakable wall in one corner screaming bloody "Loot" at me. Of course I go over, punch it in, and in the process lose my third energy bar. For what? for something I could've done for free if I had NOT charged my bars? This is so wrong, it's not even funny. I get punished for charging my bars when I can.

So, please:

Let the Last Energy Bar be the one that recharges. Not the First.

meev991
2nd Sep 2011, 23:14
Malik: Adam, I thought I told you to gather intel.

Adam: I am. Just need to eat these hot wings before I fond Tong.

MoreDread
3rd Sep 2011, 20:55
tearing down a wall and doing a takedown should only eat up 50% of an energy bar..
if you do 2 in a row, you still loose a bar... but if you wait just a second, there will still be 1% left to fully recharge the bar.

for those that think it makes the game to easy... allright... just make it use 99% of a bar... that way you still have to wait almost as long as you do now for a takedown until you can make another one without wasting an energy bar.... but at least you can manage to preserve some of your energy for that moment you really need it.
eating candy bars in a firefight is just a stupid idea...
and the devs claiming that auto regen is needed to keep the action going, but then making you wait all the time for your energy bar to recharge if you wanna use the thing that the game mechanics are supposedly based on is a contradiction.
i like a game that present a challenge.. and i like the fact that you have to pay attention to how you use your energy. but candy bars beeing the only way to recharge the energy is just stupid.. it wouldn't be as bad tho if relatively simple actions like the takedowns or breaking walls wouldn't waste an unproportionate amount of energy.

a challenge also has to make sense or else you just feel like a lab rat jumping through hoops...

a boss can have a good AI, making it very hard to kill... or it can just do alot of damage and take 50 headshots to kill... both things are challenging.. but only one of them is interesting and makes sense.

i'm not complaining because i thought the game was too hard.. actually it was quite easy.
i'm complaining because the way energy is handled now slows down gameplay, it makes no sense and it limits creativity.

btw the real way to fix it would be adding actual melee attacks which you can control dynamically and charge with energy to do more damage.


BTW for those that have (like me) wasted way too many energy bars on breaking walls... explosives work too... that idea however just came to me in the very last level... can't blame the devs for that one =P

RedLED
4th Sep 2011, 02:23
I don't know if people have spoken about that, but I vote for unlimited candy buyable at LIMB and no changes.


Deus Ex didn't penalize you for not playing in a single specific manner, I hate the fact that HE does.
"Hate" is a strong word but you're raising a very good point.


I don't expect these things to ever be patched in or changed, but I hope this is in some way moddable.
I'd like them to be patched in vanilla because the spirit of the franchise is important and they tried to stick it in a very good way.

I'd like a patch along with another improvements : exp for hacking < exp for opening a door with the code (give 110% of this door's exp, because the natural opening is stealthier than hacking through), and hacking on site = no ghost).

There's a few things to improve the exp given by the game. I wonder if it's possible for Eidos to study the endings saves of their players, to see just how people did, if they had to much credit, too much exp or not, etc.

I'd like a possible "no hacking" walkthrough, even if it makes you having a problem like freeing the hostages a level 1 sometimes. I'd like a full "no killings" walkthrough (like in each Metal Gear Solid).

Optional parts should be totally parallelized in gameplay, not melted. This is the player who decide to melt this element of gameplay with this one (killing, hacking, and maybe others I don't think of). Metal Gear Solid perfectly implemented that, that's why you still have that much timed walkthrough or "no kill" walkthrough now.

I'd like a lot of things in a patch : statistics at the end of the game to be able to settle scores for passionate players (just a screen at the end), for exemple.
Mod support, to make this game alive a long time.
Being in a 3d matrix for exemple. Well. For the matrix, I guess we'll have to ait for "Neuromancer" to be seen for people to trully seize how cool it is since not every guy read it or played Cyberpunk/Shadowrun dice and paper rpg, or played Uplink and so on.

Anyway, if guys from Eidos read that : AN ADDON (a true old school one, not a sequel or some DLC) IS REQUIRED GUYS !! :)
You can't do a sequel with Adam. Each new DX had a new hero. But I'd want to see him again.

Glyph
4th Sep 2011, 03:04
I agree with having the rechargeable energy bar deplete first. That way if you cloak and do a takedown you would have to wait for the partially depleted bar to recharge before your rechargeable one starts to recharge. If you continue to use energy you would only be depleting your additional energy bars as the rechargeable one would refill only after any existing ones have a chance to recharge. In this manner you can do takedowns, wall punches, etc. and still not be penalized but if you combo any of these things you have even longer to wait since more than one energy bar needs to recharge, up to a max of two (the partially depleted one and the rechargeable one).

Also, there should be a hack mini-game to siphon energy from downed foes. This minigame could have you defending a node from attack while you are trying to partially gain energy. You would basically have to capture nodes and fortify them to prevent the I/O port(s) from reaching you within the time limit. If you fail or the timer expires, you would be penalized 50% of an energy bar; if you succeed, you get 25% of an energy bar refilled; if you disconnect the system will lock you out permanently. You could activate this ability every time you search a body and there could even be bonus nodes just like in normal hacking but do you want to risk trying to capture them?

unbeatableDX
4th Sep 2011, 03:12
:

Let the Last Energy Bar be the one that recharges. Not the First.

this really is flawed. what if u run out of energy, and run out of consumables. then you have no battery ever until u find more consumables.

just leave it as it is OR use my suggestion- [QUOTE=unbeatableDX;1674654 i think the energy system is fine. there is more important things that need changing like the final level, in my opinion. but if you want my almighty knowledge then listen up- the first battery recharges the same way now(slow but can be upgraded) however the second battery could recharge slow, and not be upgraded. the rest dont recharge[/QUOTE]

i also said; have takedowns that run on a seperate battery, for takedowns only. it cannot be recharged using consumables, but recharges at the same rate as battery recharge lvl 2 aug.

take your pick.

Glyph
4th Sep 2011, 03:40
this really is flawed. what if u run out of energy, and run out of consumables. then you have no battery ever until u find more consumables.

You missed the point entirely. There will always be one battery that recharges, period. The difference is that currently you have to use the 4 non-rechargeable ones before you will ever use the rechargeable one. The suggestion is to switch this so that you will always use the rechargeable one first and then once that is depleted you will use the non-rechargeable ones.

unbeatableDX
4th Sep 2011, 03:49
You missed the point entirely. There will always be one battery that recharges, period. The difference is that currently you have to use the 4 non-rechargeable ones before you will ever use the rechargeable one. The suggestion is to switch this so that you will always use the rechargeable one first and then once that is depleted you will use the non-rechargeable ones.

FACEPALM! i am wrong i apologise..... yes thats a good idea pancho

P4NCH0theD0G
4th Sep 2011, 07:07
First off, this is not my idea. Not really. It has been mentioned numerous times, here and elsewhere. Mine might be a little different, but not that much.

It is in essence the same as reducing the energy cost of a Takedown and a Wallsmash from 100% of one Energy Bar to 99% of an Energy Bar, only in a slightly different application.

After suggesting things like a Siphon Tool, Siphon Aug or Energy From Hacking (which nobody really seemed to agree with), I recently settled on
"The first Bar you use should recharge after completely being drained."
Yet, that is somewhat misleading: It should read:
"If you use one full bar it should recharge, if you use more than one full bar it won't."
Or:
"The last Bar you used should always recharge fully, but ONLY the last one."

More precisely, no matter how many bars you have, the one you use/used will recharge from scratch, even after a takedown or a wallsmash. However should you use more than that one bar, you lose it, and from then on the next bar down will recharge fully.

As I stated before, this is in essence the same as reducing the energy cost of a Takedown and a Wallsmash from 100% of one Energy Bar to 99% of an Energy Bar.

The Result:

You could play the game with 5 fully charged bars without having to worry about permanently "losing" one bar for a wallsmash or a simple takedown, or having to have a small candy break every time you get ambushed by enemies or want to do something fancy.
Yet you do NOT get infinite energy. Moves still cost the same, and combo moves will still leave you with one Energy Bar less than before, and you will still have to manage your resources.


Still not that clear, huh? Yeah, I kinda agree. Okay.

As an example:

The Bar you use/used Recharges completely

You have four bars in total:


You have four filled bars. You use a takedown/wallsmash, then wait for recharge. The fourth bar drains completely, but it starts recharging and after a while you again have four bars.

You have four filled bars. You take down two enemies in quick succession, but too far apart to do a double takedown. The fourth and third bars drain completely. Only the third bar recharges fully and after a while you again three full bars.

You have three filled bars. You use a takedown/wallsmash, then wait for recharge. The third bar drains completely, but it starts recharging and after a while you again have three bars.

You have three filled bars. You use a cloaked/silent-running Typhoon combo. It drains the third bar completely and 3/4 of the second bar. Only the second bar starts recharging, and after a while you have two full bars again.

You have two full bars. You cloak around an enemy only to run into another one and to avoid detection you must stay cloaked longer than you anticipated. The second bar drains completely plus 2/3 of the first. Only the first bar starts recharging, and after a while you have one full bar again.

You have one full bar. You use a takedown/wallsmash. The (first) bar drains completely, but it starts recharging and after a while you again have one bar.



Now, some might say: Isn't that almost like it is now? What's the difference?
Well, the difference is subtle, but crucial.
As it is now, the game seems to "punish" you for always keeping your energy fully charged.
How so? You have three full bars and need to punch through a wall. Afterwards you only have two bars. If you had only had one bar, the one that recharges from scratch, you wouldn't have lost/wasted a (candy) bar. And that's how you feel it: a loss, a waste, unnecessary and frustrating. And, even worse, a waste for something that is in 90% of the cases navigating the level, not attacking, mind you.

So the consensus of smart energy use boiled down to this: Never charge unless you need it.
Always run around only with the first, completely-recharging energy bar, and only charge more if you really need them. You can cloak and run and smash walls and do simple takedowns with impunity, only limited by the recharge time. And if you think the situation warrants it, you can chow down on some extra energy before entering the fray.

Sadly, this also introduced the "Damn, I'm surrounded. What do I... STOP! Snickers-Time!" moments (and No, you can't touch this), a disturbingly incongruous reaction to a difficult or lethal situation, breaking immersion on an almost instinctual level. Additionally, the one-bar-only policy limits the amount of purely reflexive actions, takes away a certain spontaneity from surprising encounters, and discourages creative experimentation with your augments.
It also introduces an artificial "challenge" when it comes to the usability of consumables, an inversion of long ingrained mechanics. Whereas in most games you would charge your energy whenever you could, and carry consumables around to recharge when necessary, the current system forces you to never charge when you can, but only just before you need to. Thus, consumables of opportunity cease to exist. Candy Bars or Protein Jars that are found cannot be used immediately, but have to be carried around, and those that don't fit into the inventory will most likely be left behind.
Admittedly, this does add a certain strategic planning requirement, to both enemy encounters and inventory management, yet it does not feel natural. It disrupts the game-flow.

Now, I do like a good challenge. I enjoy it, rejoice in it. I take pride in reacting successfully to changing, evolving or surprising circumstances. I adapt accordingly. A big part of that is being prepared. Since the beginning of time, the venerated players of video games instinctively tried to keep their characters in the most "powered-up" state possible. Whether it be Armor, Shields or Ammo, the more the better, the reserves at max, the gun's clip full.

Yet DE:HR takes a staple concept of gaming experience and turns it completely around.
No longer do you strive to be prepared for whatever might come your way. No, now you only prepare for what you know is there to overcome (and should it not work out the way you thought it would, well that's what the quicksaves are for; if only it wouldn't load so long...).

Now, maybe that was what the developers intended. Maybe the plan was to force you into surveying your opposition before you strike, force you to make your own plan before each and every encounter, and only then use whatever weapons and/or energy providers you think necessary as well as sensible. Maybe they even wanted you to load and reload a single save game over and over until you find your perfect way. If so, then their supposed "Freedom of Approach" has just been called into question. As well as their understanding of today's gameplay mechanics, especially when it comes to an action-oriented style.

Am I dramatizing shamelessly to play on your fears? Maybe. But the simple truth remains that a lot of us feel that something is wrong with the current system. And I would bet that even those of us who lightly overcame the obstacle it presented, even they can feel it. Because we all do. We feel it in our hearts, in our bones, in the patches of hardened skin on our thumbs and in the hair on our palms. It goes against everything we have been doing since we started playing games. Trying to be your best shouldn't be punished, keeping your Energy charged all the time shouldn't be penalized.

Not everything that's new or different or innovative really has to be a good thing.

unbeatableDX
4th Sep 2011, 07:13
ergh too long. i shall read tommorow.......need sleep

Snowranger19
4th Sep 2011, 07:22
I think they should just make it so that takedowns consume 99% of a cell... this way if you use anything else, you have to eat (and it prevents you from cloaking + takedown without eating).

Maybe make double take downs cost 1 and 1/2 or even 2 cells. As it is, I find I just don't upgrade the cells or their recharge.

Jel
4th Sep 2011, 09:26
P4NCH0theDOG: A good post, really, I do have to say I like your idea and reasoning, yet I have to answer and propose a different mechanism, you did hit the nail on the head with the reasoning that the current system seems to "punish" the player.

Whether or not it actually punishes the player is irrelevant, we have to look at how our average gamer probably thinks and feels like, and yes, I have to agree, the current system feels like it does punish the player.

But then, we have to look at whether the problem is in energy-system or in takedowns/wallshatters, that seem to be the main reasons the system feels like it punishes the player. Which system truly is broken? Are we applying a bandage or are we fixing the underlying problem?

Let us take a look then at the takedown-system, when is it useful and WHY it is useful in those situations, I personally felt like it was actually useful only when you got the double-takedown augment. Why? Because it was the cheapest and easiest way to get rid of 2 guards that were very near to each other, also, you could "game" the system because of its time-stopping-quality. I would actually say, the problem is in takedowns rather than in energysystem.

Wallshatters then, on the other hand is a more tricky one - it open up new paths, and should the players actually pay a price for doing this? I think yes, but would improving the energy-system make a difference here, not necessarily the system P4NCH0theDOG is proposing however, I still maintain that giving the players a chance to fully reload their energy after main-missions/Jensens apartment/somewhere in any hub (like limb-clinics) would be far better alternative, it doesn't actually remove the need of consumables during missions, makes the player feel more confident about using augments DURING missions and paying the price for opening up new paths with augments, knowing that they don't have to use their hard-earned consumables, if they do a bit of energy-conservation throughout the mission, which is likely to happen after they have opened a new, "stealthier"-path for example.


TL;DR
I would say, that the energy-cells work rather fine as they are now, they can be gamed a bit, yes, but that is life, the real problem is in the takedowns, and how they work, but that is however a completely different topic. The only real improvement I would advocate concerning energy is giving a chance to fully reload the energy, perhaps in LIMB-clinics for a small fee.

daemonjax
4th Sep 2011, 09:54
....

<script>

...


Thanks for posting that script! It gave me an idea... Here's my cheat engine script for this game:

-------------
local addr = "[[[[[dxhr.exe+00BC3348]+4B0]+10]+4]+11C]+1FC";
local f = createForm( true );
local t = createTimer( f, true );
timer_setInterval( t, 1000 );
lastEnergy = 30.0;

timer_onTimer( t, function( )
local curEnergy = readFloat(addr);
if ((lastEnergy - curEnergy) == 30) then
writeFloat(addr, curEnergy + 0.01);
end
lastEnergy = curEnergy;
end );

-----------

It differs from yours in that anytime you use an augment that costs exactly 1 energy cell (takedown, wall punch, etc.), it will add .01 energy... thus beginning the regeneration process for that cell.

For Example: You have a max of 5 energy cells, and you currently have 4 charged. Then, you use a takedown, which brings you to 3 cells. If you then choose to wait, it will recharge back to 4 cells... the 5th cell won't charge. Effectively, all actions that requre 1 energy cell now only require slightly less than one energy cell.

This doesn't really change gameplay balance (Aug giving more inventory space is still better than the aug that gives more energy cell capacity), but now I get to play with a full energy bar most of the time instead of eating power bars RIGHT BEFORE I need em.

Honestly, I actually end up using more power bars this way because I'm more likely to do two takedowns back to back... similar to what P4NCH0theD0G said... It's slightly 'funner' this way. ;)

P4NCH0theD0G
4th Sep 2011, 14:45
It differs from yours in that anytime you use an augment that costs exactly 1 energy cell (takedown, wall punch, etc.), it will add .01 energy... thus beginning the regeneration process for that cell.

Now, if you would please write something like that into the 360 game code, infiltrate EM's and SE's server rooms without once being seen, hack into their level 5 mainframe and submit these changes as a new Title Update to Xbox Live, I could die happy.

What?! I said "Please"...

P4NCH0theD0G
4th Sep 2011, 17:35
@Jel:

The reason why I think the current system undermines the whole concept of having more than one bar charged is mostly a psychological one. To keep it really short: When it comes to consumables, people are stingy.
As Patience said on Whitefall: "I never let go of money I don't have to."

I think even if there was a recharge station outside of missions, even if there were several in each hub, that funny feeling of "wasting" an energy bar would still remain. And the reasoning will always be: "If I had only one bar, then this would cost me nothing. But I have four and now have to sacrifice one." It just feels wrong, unjust and unfair. Even if I had 35 candy bars in my inventory, I would most likely still feel that I was unjustly forced to sacrifice on of those. And why? Because I like to keep my energy fully charged?

All I want is that actions that require energy cost the same no matter how many bars you have charged.

Right now it's like this:

You have two bars charged. You do two takedowns without waiting to recharge. It costs you ONE bar and 20-30 seconds to wait for a recharge on the other.

You have three bars charged. You do two takedowns without waiting to recharge. It costs you TWO bars.

I just don't see why that would be. Actions should cost you the same, no matter how many bars you have charged!


I think they should just make it so that takedowns consume 99% of a cell... this way if you use anything else, you have to eat (and it prevents you from cloaking + takedown without eating).

This, or what I propose would negate the one-bar-policy. People could navigate the levels with all their bars charged, without having to worry about (amongst other things):

a) wasting a bar on stuff that could/would be "free".

b) running around with one bar, coming across a candy pack, but leaving it behind and not using it because their inventory is full and there is no sense in wasting energy bars if you don't have to, and feeling slightly cheated.

c) running into a group of enemies and having to recharge manually before engaging.

d) running into a boss fight totally unprepared and having to reload an earlier save because in the time they try to eat their candy bars they die.

Nothing would really change, the cost of moves and combo-moves would still be the same.
You would still need to carry energy bars around, you would still lose one bar if you do things that cost more than one bar, you would still need to manage your resources.

The only real difference is that you could keep your bars filled all the time without having to worry about having to "waste" one of them on something like a wall punch. You would only have to recharge them AFTER you've dealt with enemies (if necessary), instead of having to charge them right before you engage enemies, and then only with as much energy as you are willing or likely to use.

Miscalculation of your energy needs can make this even more frustrating. If you planned on using four bars to clear a room, but somehow you only need two, you end up with two full bars, one of which will be used and lost the next time you do a simple takedown or wallsmash that should/could have been for free.
But once you charge your energy beyond the first bar it's already gone.
And this makes you afraid of experimenting and acting more freely.

Conversely, should things go even worse than how you thought they would, it might be that you run out of energy just when you needed it most, because you only charged two bars instead of three. You die, not because you didn't have the energy, but because you didn't have it ready.

The urge to keep yourself fully loaded, fully prepared is something gamers have been conditioned to do since the very beginning. I really don't understand why or how someone could even think that changing that would be a good idea.


There is a huge psychological difference between:

I have 5 full bars and get into a fight, and because it took me by surprise I have to use 2 1/2 of my bars instead of maybe only 1 1/2 to make it out alive. But I don't really mind, that's what the energy is for, after all. I've lost two bars, but the third will recharge, and I will either use some from my inventory to recharge me up to full again right now, or I'll use some of the Candy Bars that lie around and just use them when I find them. That way, should I get surprised again, I have five full bars to work with, and luckily I don't have to waste a bar every time I do a single takedown or smash through a wall because as long as I don't use more, the bar I used recharges.

and

I have 1 bar as always because I don't feel like wasting candy bars on mundane tasks like single takedowns and wall smashing, and I save very often because I like to do good in every encounter. When I see enemies I sit still, think, and then, if I have to, I load up with Energy, but only as much as I will need. If it doesn't work the way I planned, I reload the save game and try again. If I use less Energy than I charged, I reload and try again (no sense in wasting a candy bar, right?). It feels kinda weird, like if I only loaded bullets into my gun when I see enemies, but it works out okay, I guess. The Loading and Saving does get annoying, though. Sadly, most of the time I get into a real fight or I get surprised into one I either die while trying to make a plan and eat the according amount of candy, reload because I did something stupid, or I don`t even try, just look around, then reload a previous save and prepare (again with the saving and loading). Since I only ever have one bar charged, I can't really be that spontaneous in my reactions, and I can't just run around with five full bars. That would be a total waste, especially with single takedowns and wall smashing.

neuronek
4th Sep 2011, 17:40
There is a CheatEngine script that gives You 1 energy point more when Your energy hits max and You have a free cell. (If You have 5 cells and 30 energy then the script will bump it to 31 and then the game will regenerate it at Your rate depending on Your augment choices)

oh snap, just realized it's here already, good. I've been using it for 2 days tho ;p

KingNL
4th Sep 2011, 18:06
Energy cells are fine imo

Kibou
9th Sep 2011, 09:20
All I want is that actions that require energy cost the same no matter how many bars you have charged.
That's a very good description of the problem.

jacobocaj
9th Sep 2011, 17:01
I really am interested in reading everyone's opinion on this to see if it matches up with mine. It's sort of a mixed bag as far as opinions go but, I just came to a wierd realization. I dont think the devs really give a damn if we like their system of energy distribution or not... Bottom line, it is the way it is and they aint gonna change it, no matter how much we hate or love it.

CryHavok
11th Sep 2011, 02:35
I'd just like to have all the bars regenerate ( v.s. only the 1st one ), especially if you've invested Praxis into maxing out the Sarif Series Energy Converter Aug.

PugPug
11th Sep 2011, 03:44
I really, really hope they take this poll seriously.

This problem irritates me to no end.

unbeatableDX
11th Sep 2011, 05:07
I really, really hope they take this poll seriously.

This problem irritates me to no end.

this "problem" is not a problem at all really. xp balance and fixing the final level among other things should take priority

daemonjax
11th Sep 2011, 05:11
I'd just like to have all the bars regenerate ( v.s. only the 1st one ), especially if you've invested Praxis into maxing out the Sarif Series Energy Converter Aug.

Currently, all bars do regenerate... It's just that the leftmost (the first one) regenerates even when it's completely depleted.

If they all did that, the game would be much easier by making Cloak more powerful than it already is. A better compromise would be making takedowns and wallpunches use 29.99 energy instead of 30.00.

unbeatableDX
11th Sep 2011, 06:16
If they all did that, the game would be much easier by making Cloak more powerful than it already is. A better compromise would be making takedowns and wallpunches use 29.99 energy instead of 30.00.

THIS is the only fix that would be acceptable, but i think its fine as it is. most of the augs are passive anyway...

Kibou
12th Sep 2011, 13:49
I think the poll has become kind of outdated, since the discussion in this thread has progressed beyond the choices it offered. Maybe someone should create a new one. I think the most important choices would be (made up on the fly, may have missed one):


the regenerating cell should always be used first
takedowns should only use 99% of a cells charge (so it can regenerate)
additional cells you get via augs should regenerate
all cells should regenerate
everything should remain as it is


Also, it should probably be clarified who want the game to actually become easier, and who doesn't - because I certainly don't. In my opinion, the first or second choice from above list should be used, and the amount of consumables found should be reduced (and maybe their effectiveness, too) to make up for it.
I want the game to be less cumbersome and frustrating, and I don't want the game to discourage the use of augs that use energy. But I don't want the game to become any easier.

Nebular
12th Sep 2011, 17:55
I certainly don't want things to be any easier. I rather enjoyed the challenge, but the battery thing does need some tweaking. I think the number of cells that regenerate should be built into the energy tree. I can see this working one of two ways. 1) When you purchase one extra battery, it also unlocks the ability for one additional battery to recharge on its own. 2) Add the ability to recharge an additional battery as a new item in the tree which means that if you want the ability to recharge more it's there, but it comes at a cost (to be honest I found myself just dumping Praxis Points into stuff I didn't care about because I had too many by the end, so there's certainly room for more options). In both of these cases, energy bars would still be meaningful as not every cell will recharge on its own while making the battery tree a more appealing choice because you're not always stuck at 1 full cell.

tar73
16th Sep 2011, 22:16
Hi

I'm looking for a mod/script that can recharge more than 1 battery, preferably 2 or 3 batteries, and work with latest patch.

I used cheat engine (http://www.cheatengine.org/) and a script made by Wisq in this thread (http://forum.cheatengine.org/viewtopic.php?t=541372&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) before patch.

There is another script on page 2 in this thread (http://forum.cheatengine.org/viewtopic.php?t=541372&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15)that supposedly let you decide how many cells you want to recharge. The problem is that no one of this scripts work after patch.

Anyone have a update to this scripts or another mod/script that do something similar that work after patch?

Romeo
16th Sep 2011, 22:20
There is already a thread pertaining to the energy system and modding it, please use the search function next time.

tar73
16th Sep 2011, 22:32
There is already a thread pertaining to the energy system and modding it, please use the search function next time.

I did and found only 3 related threads to "battery", but non that was talking about a mod/script.

3rdmillhouse
16th Sep 2011, 23:24
My ideas:

- The regeneration of subsequential energy bars should be purchased as augmentations with praxis points.
- The energy consumption of lethal takedowns and non-lethal should be mitigated/reduced through the purchase of specifically tailored augmentations.
- As standard, the decrease in energy consumption of non-lethal takedowns should be more significant than that of lethal takedowns. Why do you ask? It's simply because non-lethal takedowns are carried out by the natural motions of the human limbs, Adam doesn't need to unsheath his concealed blades, send electrical impulses to trigger his typhoon charges or spin his hand maniacally around his wrist's joint.
- As you upgrade the efficiency of your body's energy consumption, all augs should require less energy when triggered.

Romeo
17th Sep 2011, 00:12
My ideas:

- The regeneration of subsequential energy bars should be purchased as augmentations with praxis points.
- The energy consumption of lethal takedowns and non-lethal should be mitigated/reduced through the purchase of specifically tailored augmentations.
- As standard, the decrease in energy consumption of non-lethal takedowns should be more significant than that of lethal takedowns. Why do you ask? It's simply because non-lethal takedowns are carried out by the natural motions of the human limbs, Adam doesn't need to unsheath his concealed blades, send electrical impulses to trigger his typhoon charges or spin his hand maniacally around his wrist's joint.
- As you upgrade the efficiency of your body's energy consumption, all augs should require less energy when triggered.
You already get more experience and make less noise with non-lethal, they really don't need any more bonuses, in my books.

I do like the concept of augs allowing for charging of more cells though. My idea would be Level 1 charge would be slow, and only do one bar. Level 2 would be slightly quicker for the first bar, and slow for the second. Level 3 would be fast first bar, slightly slower second bar and slow third bar.

tar73
17th Sep 2011, 10:47
I'm using this battery script now. Credits to Wisq. aqw and Church481516 over at the cheat engine forum. I have been told that the address in the script is less stable than before patch, but it works great for me at the moment.

-- set this to the max number of batteries to regenerate
local batteries = 5;

local addr = "[[[dxhr.exe+019B1018]+14]+3c]+274";
local f = createForm( true );
local t = createTimer( f, true );
timer_setInterval( t, 1000 );

timer_onTimer( t, function( )
local energy = readFloat(addr);
if math.abs(energy % 30.0) < 0.005 and energy < 30*batteries then
writeFloat(addr, energy + 0.01);
end
end );

To get this to work you have to follow this method copied from this thread (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/deus-ex-human-revolution/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-60290683&pid=944090&msg_id=m-1-671656306#m-1-671656306). Credit to jeffrey802.
1) Start up DE:HR and load into whatever game you want to play
2) ALT + TAB out of the game
3) Start up CheatEngine
4) Click the Computer icon under File to select a process, select dxhr.exe
5) Click the Table menu, then click Show Cheat Table Lua Script
6) Paste in the script above

Jibbajabba
17th Sep 2011, 10:50
I've said this before in another post: NON CLOAKED TAKEDOWNS should consume only 85% of battery, thus allowing it to recharge.

or even 99.5% as long as it does recharge ... If you go stealth then the upgrades are pretty useless down in the game as you won't find that many protein bars any more.

Kibou
17th Sep 2011, 12:28
I do like the concept of augs allowing for charging of more cells though. My idea would be Level 1 charge would be slow, and only do one bar. Level 2 would be slightly quicker for the first bar, and slow for the second. Level 3 would be fast first bar, slightly slower second bar and slow third bar.
That wouldn't solve the problem, but just make it a bit less noticeable by making the whole thing easier. As I explained before, in my opinion the base of this this whole issue, or the base of this whole thing being perceived as an issue, are certain discrepancies / inconsistencies in the current system:

On the one hand, energy is treated as a precious resource (candy bars are sparse, there aren't bots that provide unlimited supply like in DX1, performing one action usually takes up an entire cell), but on the other hand you need it for takedowns, which are a common action you perform all the time if you go stealth.

On the one hand, the system forces you to only have one cell charged all the time, to avoid wasting precious non-recharging cells on simple takedown, but on the other hand there are all this cool augs that you may want to use, and that you should be encouraged to use, but you can't do so if you don't have energy ready.

Frraksurred
17th Sep 2011, 12:38
Personally I hated the battery system. I understand it was designed to keep you from becoming super aug, but it turned out to be this annoying thing that puts me off using augs altogether (apart from take downs).

The last cell used should always recharge, no matter if it's the first or the last. It still wouldn't be perfect, but it would go a long way towards fixing the problem.

Krankor
17th Sep 2011, 13:58
Here is my idea and I think it's pretty good;

----
Energy Cells regenerate fully with all cells (beyond the first two cells, regeneration rate remains the same.
Link sprinting with this energy consumption to a degree.

Health DOES NOT regenerate above 30%~40%, in order to max health to 100% and beyond you need to consume 'protein' bars / food / drink etc. You can also visit a Limb clinic.
----

This way the player will get more use out of all of the augmented abilities like cloaking, the difficulty will go up, but it is immediately off-set by the easier use of energy. The concept feels realistic too.

(apologies if this idea was repeated elsewhere)

Romeo
17th Sep 2011, 21:06
That wouldn't solve the problem, but just make it a bit less noticeable by making the whole thing easier. As I explained before, in my opinion the base of this this whole issue, or the base of this whole thing being perceived as an issue, are certain discrepancies / inconsistencies in the current system:

On the one hand, energy is treated as a precious resource (candy bars are sparse, there aren't bots that provide unlimited supply like in DX1, performing one action usually takes up an entire cell), but on the other hand you need it for takedowns, which are a common action you perform all the time if you go stealth.

On the one hand, the system forces you to only have one cell charged all the time, to avoid wasting precious non-recharging cells on simple takedown, but on the other hand there are all this cool augs that you may want to use, and that you should be encouraged to use, but you can't do so if you don't have energy ready.
With three bars, you can afford to use silent footsteps for quite a while, in conjuction with stealth, and still have enough energy to perform a takedown after ten second while running both those augs. It would essentially eliminate the whole "can't use augs because I can't take people down" issue on it's own.

beerotaur
18th Sep 2011, 18:09
A) Grant a second regenerating cell after you have picked the level 4 battery, and the level 2 battery charger aug. One regenerating cell does feel rather restricting.

B) OR... or simply allow the energy used in non-lethal takedowns to recover. A takedown should consume energy, but the energy used should return. Slowly.

Kibou
19th Sep 2011, 07:42
With three bars, you can afford to use silent footsteps for quite a while, in conjuction with stealth, and still have enough energy to perform a takedown after ten second while running both those augs. It would essentially eliminate the whole "can't use augs because I can't take people down" issue on it's own.
That's exactly what I meant: Giving you that much energy would make the whole energy management aspect super-easy, sou you won't notice its flaws anymore. It would still be a waste to use candy bars or other consumables just to spent your precious non-recharging cells on a mere takedown, but since three recharging cells pretty much eliminate the need for those consumables, it doesn't bother you anymore.

The change that this system requires is, basically, some way to preserve your precious non-recharging cells until you really want to use them, instead of them being drained by commonplace actions. This could be implemented by making the recharging cell the first one that's used, or by making takedowns cheaper so they don't drain a cell entirely.