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View Full Version : ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT? What would you change? -(Warning: SPOILERS INSIDE)



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Kan3
25th Aug 2011, 08:12
I just have a few suggestions/requests for the game (over all platforms) :)

A bigger focus on melee combat, maybe a few more augs, more hubs, and my biggest focus is way more important and wanted: the ablility to play as Fedorova. Would be excellent fun no?

VectorM
25th Aug 2011, 09:30
I sure hope you are suggesting this for the sequel. And how the heck do you suggest they make Fedorova playable? Assassin's Creed style multiplayer?

Ashpolt
25th Aug 2011, 10:09
I haven't played the full game yet (it's hopefully going to arrive tomorrow!) but I could imagine a DLC add on where you play as Fedorova - have cloaking and silent run enabled as standard, and then the rest of the aug tree available at the player's choice. Plot wise, it could be set alongside the timeline of the main game, leading up to just before the fight with Adam. Though, of course, Fedorova is pretty much a flat-out bad guy, and also mute (going by the novel here - again, I haven't played the game yet) so it would reduce the RPG aspects a lot - no conversations, no option to play how you want (at least, not without breaking character.)

And while I wouldn't object to a (somewhat) bigger focus on melee combat, it'd have to be coupled with adding in proper melee weapons, not just takedowns. Adding in proper melee combat I could definitely get on board with.

Sodel
26th Aug 2011, 21:24
Since my last thread was too offensive i guess here is the next one with some sort of critique:

1) Graphics
- almost no settings to adjust graphics
- low res textures
- low res cg-cutszenes
- low res models
- Adam has no shadow

2) Controls
- hold for crouch and ironsight desperately needed
- aiming feels off
- controlls are rather strange as long as FPS are not far beyond 60FPS

3) Gameplay/Immersion
- tons of stuff on tables - nothing moves at all
- 3d person switch is really strange since the camera is not moving at all ...
- Adam Jensen seems to have no shadow which breaks immersion when you see some cool shadows on the floor in front of a lightsource then you move there but you have none ...
- cant pick up weapons dropped by dead "non enemies"
- there are tons of objects you cant actually interact with which makes the scenery look really static especially combined with the "glued" stuff on tables etc.


3) Interface
- this game has one, havent seen it yet i guess its a bug ...

4) Performance
- really bad
- Huge FPS drops
- Game not playable below 60 FPS at least on my pc, the only time it really runs smooth is when it hits >90 FPS
- Game should run much smoother on my PC anyways (I7 920, 2x 4890 in CF, 6 GB RAM, Win7 64bit)

You may add things you disklike and what you think about those things. I think there are so many problems with this games that it really makes it rather frustrating to play.

jaywalker2309
26th Aug 2011, 21:32
Well of course you welcome to your opinion, however there is a very large majority of people who would disagree with you on a lot of these points.

you havent seen the interface? erm.. then either you havent actually played the game or you have managed to play more then 10 mins of the game.. :)

Sodel
26th Aug 2011, 21:40
Well of course you welcome to your opinion, however there is a very large majority of people who would disagree with you on a lot of these points.

you havent seen the interface? erm.. then either you havent actually played the game or you have managed to play more then 10 mins of the game.. :)

Okay well at least that explains that ;)
I am still playing arround in the first part of the game trying to find settings on which i can enjoy it wihthout stuttering. (it is highly annyoing when you are in a firefight and die because of some stuttering which can happen pretty fast on the hardest difficulty (which is by the way a positive thing for me ;) ))

But i have to say i doubt many ppl will disagree with things like the missing controll options and graphics settings etc.
They may dissagree when it comes down to performance but i doubt my pc is that strange when it comes down to things like this since i actually havent had such problems yet (except for really bad ports like GTAIV ...)

JCpies
26th Aug 2011, 21:44
- More variety between Sarif Industries security guards, I've seen the same model standing next to eachother! "omg clones!"

- Does feel a bit static, though much more detailed so I can't really complain.

- Give the player the choice to wear the trenchcoat during missions. The trenchcoat is awesome and Alex Denton sucked because he didn't have one!

That's pretty much all I can think of! I am having some FPS issues though, but I'm sure that's my card.

Glyph
26th Aug 2011, 21:47
Although I absolutely love Human Revolution, I do agree that the game is not perfect, especially regarding the character animations and models. After watching videos of RAGE and id's new engine I think that the Deus Ex franchise could benefit greatly from using newer technology in this area but that does not take any credite away from Eidos in the least. Things like being unable to push through an NPC make the game feel dated as does being unable to properly carry a downed enemy (the physics of dragging are wonky at best).

Despite many of these issues, however, the levels and missions are the true stars of the game and they feel incredible. The length of the game is exceptional and the way the game allows you to miss many subtle aspects forces the player to get involved. I do feel that the criticism is justified however as many design choices were made to appeal to the console market. This criticism does not make Human Revolution a bad game in any way, shape, or form though.

Dentrick
26th Aug 2011, 21:47
Disagree with pretty much all of it.

You get your HUD after you get augmented. If you made it past the first mission and you don't have the HUD, reload your last save.

Kneesocks
26th Aug 2011, 21:48
I love this game to death, but here are some things wrong with the game. I really enjoyed it. If I had to give it a number rating, it would probably be above a 90% score.

Bosses
I didn't like the boss battles. I thought they seemed really contrived. I played on the "Give me Deus Ex" difficulty level, and I still found the bosses lacking in difficulty. Barrett was the only hard boss for me, but in the end, he actually ended up killing himself with his own frag grenade.
I didn't take any damage from Federova at all and I thought her boss battle was lacking. You could literally just sprint right past her and not take any damage from her typhoon attack.
Namir was slightly better, but I cheaped out on his boss fight and just ran around the outside perimeter of the arena and he couldn't find me until I shot him.
The final boss was the worst though, in my opinion. Not even difficult. I had 3 EMP grenades, so I could kill the sentry robots easily. I didn't like that you had to kill Zhao Yun's daughters. They should have given you a choice to spare them. They were obviously suffering and I did a mostly less-than-lethal playthrough. It just didn't seem like something "Adam Jensen" would do. The ending was so anti-climactic too.

Hacking
The hacking levels were kind of ridiculous. "You can't hack this because you don't have the level 2 hack augmentation". They should at least let me try it. That's an artificial boundary. Give me a penalty, give me a more severe punishment if I fail, but don't outright say "no hacking allowed". That's silly.

A few things I didn't like about Stealth
You could hide behind clearly see-through railings and things in the game without people noticing you, but people can still see you through glass. It kind of broke the immersion for me

Also, you could do a cover-to-cover transition in an enemy's field of view and he wouldn't notice you sometimes.

Those are all my problems with this game. The rest of the game was excellent. I've replayed it two times thus far and I'm doing a third, melee-only playthrough.

Sodel
26th Aug 2011, 21:54
Hmm another thing i find rather immersion-breaking:
(maybe its a bug on my pc)
- i cant see any blood or blood decals when shooting people which is rather strange

jaywalker2309
26th Aug 2011, 21:54
Okay well at least that explains that ;)
I am still playing arround in the first part of the game trying to find settings on which i can enjoy it wihthout stuttering. (it is highly annyoing when you are in a firefight and die because of some stuttering which can happen pretty fast on the hardest difficulty (which is by the way a positive thing for me ;) ))

But i have to say i doubt many ppl will disagree with things like the missing controll options and graphics settings etc.
They may dissagree when it comes down to performance but i doubt my pc is that strange when it comes down to things like this since i actually havent had such problems yet (except for really bad ports like GTAIV ...)

Okay so you're in the `pre intro sequence` bit.. lol

Stuttering is not something everyone is seeing, so maybe theres something running on your machine? found the easiest and quickest way to check this without touching your user account is to create a new one on the machine and just run steam from the folder and use your steam account (works no worries).. this means no other apps running outside of system based ones..

oh If you are running ATI Tray tools, try disabling that for the time being (some have said this is really interfering)

Graphic settings? we're not trying to compete with games like crysis and the like which like to offer people the ability to change to the n'th degree. we've kept it reasonably simple but still offering dx11 stuff which a lot of games dont offer yet..

Just saw you said you dont see blood.. again you've barely scratched the surface of the game (no pun intended) and you're trying to stir things up by posting things like that `being a bug`, there is quite a lot of blood in the game with the takedowns being particularly gruesome in places..

Danik0226
26th Aug 2011, 23:31
I've played through Deus Ex: HR, and while it is an excellent game, I feel like the following changes would be reasonable.

1. Lethal vs Non-lethal Take Downs - I have no problem with non-lethal take downs being the primary form of close quarter incapacitation, however, the lack of an exp bonus and the the ridiculous alarm range makes lethal take downs out of the question for anyone looking to maximize their bonuses. It seems like this is forcing a pacifist morality on the player more so than common sense. Two metal blades through someone's lungs or neck is not going to make them scream in pain because they would be completely incapable of doing so given the injury. I would add a lethal exp bonus to match the merciful bonus, and reduce the range of notification for lethal take downs. Non-lethal would still be heavily preferred, but performing a lethal take down on a lone enemy with practically no one around would not be prohibited based on the game play mechanics.

2. Hacking vs Key Codes - There seems to be an incredible exp bias when it comes to hacking. It's almost to the point where many of the augmentations pay for themselves given the amount of exp you get. This seems rather ridiculous to me. Managing to find a Key Code through pocket secretaries or other means is usually far harder to accomplish than hacking. You are encouraged to hack even if you already have the code, which is completely nonsensical. I would suggest giving the same amount of exp that would be given for completing the hack if a correct Key Code is entered in. The bonus from hacking would then come from data storage that contains exp, credits, stop worms, and nukes. Hacking would then become an option rather than a must have.

3. Weapon vs Weapon as Ammo - This is more so a gripe than anything else, but it seems kind of stupid that you can maximize credits by picking up a weapon, selling it, then going to retrieve the same weapon of the same type to sell again. The other option of having the weapon and only receiving a random amount of ammo when picking up the same weapon just seems odd from a gameplay perspective. The optimal thing to do for credits is gather, sell, gather, sell, rather than picking up as many items as possible when performing the quest. I ended up doing multiple gathering runs in Detroit from all the side quests to make quite a bit more than I otherwise would have made.

exmachinad
27th Aug 2011, 00:13
Agree pretty much with the first post. There's room for a lot of improvements to this game. In fact, I could point some more things that I'd like to see, personally.

Don't get me wrong, it a awesome game, really good to see this kind of title in a market dominated by brainless shooters and such.

But, at athe same, time, I do feel that this game is kind of overrated right now (Yes, I finished it once. And yes, my judgment can change when I "dig deeper" into it)

It's kind of weird to see all this love in these boards from some people who supposely played the 1rst game back when it was released. Sure, it is very subjective and just my opinion. It is just that, when I finished Deus Ex for the first time eleven years ago, I was totall blown away. It was... a revelation, almost. The climax of a experience. When I (recently :) ) first finished HR, I thought it was pretty cool and decided to play it again very soon, but didn't get the same "ecstasy".

I don't think it is nostalgia (before someone trhows this word at me :D). But I think that, for me, DX stood the test of time very well (except graphics of course ;-) ). Right now, to me HR is a very good game that makes DX proud, but don't really surpass it (as some are so eager to say). And, of course, HR owes it existence to the first one.


Well of course you welcome to your opinion, however there is a very large majority of people who would disagree with you on a lot of these points.

This is not a nice way to say "back off, we don't want bad critics!", is it? :hmm:

tinfish
27th Aug 2011, 01:36
Drop boss fights.
Fix Cloak and Daggers.
Fix Thunderbird movement when talking.

As with all games involving hacking, it is a veritable treasure chest of XP and loot, don't take it and you lose out on so much. Surely there has to be a way to make this skill less of a necessity? A strength mod that when maxed allows you to punch through certain unhackable safes for example. At least 1 side quest cannot be completed without level 5 hacking or a limited edition AUD.

Amazing game as it is, boss fights asides.

Facebyface
27th Aug 2011, 01:45
Since my last thread was too offensive i guess here is the next one with some sort of critique:

1) Graphics
- almost no settings to adjust graphics I see quite a few options. I can't max them out simply due to my system, but they've got a wide range for people to explore.
- low res textures Mainly on characters, yes, but overall the textures are great with anisotropic at max.
- low res cg-cutszenes Common complaint
- low res models Eh? Not sure I got you there.
- Adam has no shadow Noticed this too, and I find it quite funny actually! Shadows are the thing I care about least in the game though, so I'm not all too bothered. Even at medium the shadows elsewhere look damn good.

2) Controls
- hold for crouch and ironsight desperately needed HR is the first game EVER where I loved the fact I didn't have to hold down crouch. In most other games I find it necessary, but this game is so based around keeping your head low. The ironsights too, given their position, are fine with me in simply on/off.
- aiming feels off That's realism. It's not supposed to be perfect.
- controlls are rather strange as long as FPS are not far beyond 60FPS What?

3) Gameplay/Immersion
- tons of stuff on tables - nothing moves at all That's the sacrifice you have with having an immense amount of clutter. You either have micro detail or you have empty rooms. I think they went with the right choice given that it isn't based around physics-based gameplay. There are just enough dynamic objects to not make me break from the feel of the world.
- 3d person switch is really strange since the camera is not moving at all ... I like it, personally.

3) Interface
- this game has one, havent seen it yet i guess its a bug ... Yeah... Press the ~ key?

4) Performance
- Huge FPS drops Not for me. A bit of stuttering, but overall they did a crazy good job in making areas connect with minimal drops.

Comments in bold.

ReliantLion
27th Aug 2011, 01:52
IMO the boss fights should have been semi-optional, "Laputan machine", anyone? This was one of my favorite things in the original DX. On one play-through, I managed to not 'learn' the killphrase and had to come up with a creative way of killing this boss using the level. I missed this when playing the bosses in Human Revolution. I also think the boss fights were meant to be impossible on the hardest difficulty unless you use unfair tactics (grenades/mines). I'd have like to seen the bosses use cover like the player might.

Sev
27th Aug 2011, 02:10
The xp system is the only thing I care about.

It's horrible. It's obviously extremely biased towards a single rigid play style and penalizes anything else.

It's literally keeping me from replaying the game because I can't stand the fact that playing differently that in a stealthy non-lethal manner is going gimp and weaken my character development because someone decided this is how things should be, despite all the different methods I could use instead.

I realize that this was obviously brought up in the development and still some one decided that's the way it should be for whatever reason (I mean I get it, losing your humanity vs keeping your morality despite your argumentations, great theme if done right, but incorporate it into the story and plot and don't limit my game-play choices because of it), but this bias towards a specific style makes my blood boil.

I can't believe people are complaining about 3rd person cover and ladder aspects, but have no issues with the very core of freedom of choice of the player in how he approaches situation in the game being raped in a Deus Ex game.

pewpew
27th Aug 2011, 02:41
things I think need attention are (not listed in order of importance, just how I thought of them):

- the AI needs a lot of work. these enemies are DUUUUUMB. worst AI in any RPG/shooter I've played in recent years. I'm not exaggerating or flaming, test it yourself. go to the police station in detroit and shoot a cop inside, hide for 5 mins and they will forget that you are a cop killer. go to the Hive night club, stand behind the bar and kill the bartender, duck in the corner and all the guys in the bar will stand (not ducking or jumping over the bar) right on the side so you can shoot them from under the bar. all the guys will literally just stand in line waiting to be shot. it really kills immersion when the enemies are dumber than roadkill.

- graphics...dated and have many issues, particularly with character models. many characters will shake or fidget while you talk to them. it's distracting and annoying. the bodies of people are more like blow up dolls or water balloons, people are supposed to have bones. boasting DX11 when the game looks like this is like some kid bragging about the $2000 wing they just installed on their $500 nissan sentra.

- story should make some sort of sense. for instance, why is the security chief covering for employees who were both stealing from the company and involved in illegal activities? there are other side quests that don't make sense, but that was the first point in the game (and right in the beginning) where i went WTF??? make quests and story somewhat believable.

- don't give me a cut scene every time i jump off a building, sooooo annoying.

- quick save?? maybe i missed this, but i've looked and cant find a way to bind a quick save. opening menus to make a save is cumbersome.

- the cover system is slow. getting in and out of cover seems sluggish. make it snappy.

- less hacking. i like it, it's pretty neat but there's sooo much. maybe use a key every once in a while, or a shotgun?

- i know who made the game. after the first time i load it, I NO LONGER CARE. make intro logo's skipable.

that's all i can think of atm, will prolly think of more as i finish the game. anyhow, the AI, story and graphics are all big things. game making/breaking things. food for thought.

lobo77
27th Aug 2011, 02:54
Add more controller options. please

And yeah, dump the lame cover system.

Sodel
27th Aug 2011, 02:59
edit. somehow managed to poste twice

Sodel
27th Aug 2011, 03:00
things I think need attention are (not listed in order of importance, just how I thought of them):

- the AI needs a lot of work.

- quick save?? maybe i missed this, but i've looked and cant find a way to bind a quick save. opening menus to make a save is cumbersome.

- less hacking. i like it, it's pretty neat but there's sooo much. maybe use a key every once in a while, or a shotgun?

- i know who made the game. after the first time i load it, I NO LONGER CARE. make intro logo's skipable.


AI................. yeah it does need a lot of work, for example if you shoot one guy from across the room with a dart every single AI-Enemy will run to him one after another and duck down near him while not moving at all so you can shoot them one after another, also they never seem to flank or charge at you agressively even when its 5 vs 1, they will always charge at you in a row while entering your area one at a time so you can shoot them li ke lemmings

Quicksave ..... I was also wondering about that but it is simply "hidden" F5 is quicksave F8 is Quickload but you cant rebind them and they dont appear in the menu ...

Hacking.......... im not that far into the game i just finished the first mission but i have to say, hacking is nice but when i was in the room with about 8 computers it got to a point where it was annyoing. Its fun if it is spread out over the map but not when there are like a bajillion computers in one room ;)

Intros.......... yes but that is something that is always highly annyoing i hope there will be a fanfix soon. One should think developers at some point would realize that watching the same intro over, and over and over and over and over and over and over again is pretty annyoing.


BTW. I always was rather sceptic about takedowns but those are just stupid. I mean yeah they look nice the first itme, but they are pretty much stupid in context of the game, since its a stealthy game where you do takedowns that actually make a lot of noise? Maybe im not far enough into the game and maybe there are really silent melee takedowns? Not to mention that those cinematic takedowns are anti-climax. Thats one thing many people seem to be unable to learn. Lets put it like this:
"If something "awesome" happens all the time it is not "awesome" anymore. And if it is especially loaded with flashy useless stuff to make it even more "awesome" it just gets even more annyoing"

I really do hope that i will get something to take down enemies in close combat without those stupid takedown cinematics later in the game? I mean sure, they are cool if your 14 and have ADHD and like Michael Bay Explosion movies ...


Dont get me wrong i actually like the game but some things are really annyoing.

Also some "Minor First Mission spoiler" (nothing big just a logics question)
How does adam know that his "ex-girlfriend" is dead? All i know at the end of the first misison is that i go arround with her, then i go to the office she goes somehwere else, go down kill some dudes and get knocked out waking up again. So how does ma charackter presume that she is dead? Not to mention that the story heavly indicates that theye actually have a big interrest in capturing her alive

PrinsJonis
27th Aug 2011, 03:03
Difficulty needs adjustment. WTB a harder difficulty that is actually hard... like, removal of auto regen... put some items ingame that you can heal with. Remove third person cover... this game was just a huge dissapointment when it came to the difficulty level... immersion was great though, but how is it any different from other games these days? It's not, this seems to be the business model for all games these days...

... and that's pretty graphics "second life" type of games where you do shiny stuff and never die.

Sodel
27th Aug 2011, 03:16
Difficulty needs adjustment. WTB a harder difficulty that is actually hard... like, removal of auto regen... put some items ingame that you can heal with.

Well it would be a first step to stop it from actually regenerating during battles. Since AI will just wait for you to heal if you dont move out of your cover ...

cartridge
27th Aug 2011, 03:31
OP: I haven't run into any of those graphic problems except for the no shadow, there is a setup utility with the game that allows you to change all those settings. Are you running a pirated copy of the game or something?

Dentrick
27th Aug 2011, 03:53
Also some "Minor First Mission spoiler" (nothing big just a logics question)
How does adam know that his "ex-girlfriend" is dead? All i know at the end of the first misison is that i go arround with her, then i go to the office she goes somehwere else, go down kill some dudes and get knocked out waking up again. So how does ma charackter presume that she is dead? Not to mention that the story heavly indicates that theye actually have a big interrest in capturing her alive

All the scientists were equipped with a secret tracking device. The devices went dark.

nathanj
27th Aug 2011, 07:26
disable takedowns. as i posted in another thread im literally punching people, breaking their arms and flipping them over onto the ground a couple feet behind someone else and they dont hear anything. at the very least let me use the chokehold so that its at least somewhat believable.

playing nonlethal is easier. nonlethal takedowns are silent while lethal takedowns make noise :nut: stun gun and dart rifle are instant and ignore armor and are silent. their ammo is also plentiful. all this and you get extra xp for playing the easy way. why? it shouldnt matter how you neutralize someone you should get the same xp no matter what. you can penalize or reward people for how they do missions by other means than saying "good boy.....because you used the easy method we will give you 20 extra xp" i dont want to be nice to the mercenaries that shot up the unarmed scientists at Sarif HQ. yet im literally being told by the game that if i dont play some pansy ass pacifist then im going to lose points. its stupid.

other than the characters with parkinsons in dialogue everything else about the game is excellent. this is a worthy successor to deus ex and i hope the developers will make another one. :)

oh and shorten the range of the 10mm pistol. once you get laser and antiarmor i never used my sniper cause the 10mm instant killed everything with a head shot even from accross large expanses.

strayfe
27th Aug 2011, 08:46
I want conversations to look less "hoppy".
Other than that, I really hope square puts out some downloadable content of some sort. I would love to have more hours in this game.

Lastly, I hate those invisible walls! So often I will try shooting through a large crack, or between polls on railing, or past an edge, and my bullets/arrows won't travel to the target.

Kan3
27th Aug 2011, 10:18
I haven't played the full game yet (it's hopefully going to arrive tomorrow!) but I could imagine a DLC add on where you play as Fedorova - have cloaking and silent run enabled as standard, and then the rest of the aug tree available at the player's choice. Plot wise, it could be set alongside the timeline of the main game, leading up to just before the fight with Adam. Though, of course, Fedorova is pretty much a flat-out bad guy, and also mute (going by the novel here - again, I haven't played the game yet) so it would reduce the RPG aspects a lot - no conversations, no option to play how you want (at least, not without breaking character.)

And while I wouldn't object to a (somewhat) bigger focus on melee combat, it'd have to be coupled with adding in proper melee weapons, not just takedowns. Adding in proper melee combat I could definitely get on board with.

The above was pretty much what I was thinking :)

lobo77
28th Aug 2011, 15:58
Don't borrow stuff from other popular titles. It's painfully obvious and annoying. The Rainbow 6/Gears of War cover system for example.
The story is great, but the gameplay feels like a mish-mash of other games I've already played. It feels like GOW meets Mass Effect meets Halo. With a little bit of old Deus Ex RPG elements thrown in to just to satisfy the fanboys.

Kamikave
28th Aug 2011, 18:11
There is just one thing I'd like to change : I would remove the bosses.

My character has no skill whatsoever in combat (put it all in infiltration, hacking). My deadliest weapon is a pistol. I killed the first boss using grenades, after reloading the game twenty times, minimum, and 4 or 5 crashes while loading my savegame, and one crash after killing the boss (black screen with subtiles, that was great !), forcing me to kill him again.
Now, I made it to the second boss, I'm out of grenades (not that it would be effective against her), and the machine gun provided is useless (no combat augs). I gave up after the third game crash, while skiping the damn cinematic before the boss. I must have tried ten time before that...

The point is, I lost all motivation to try again. I enjoyed the game greatly, and it all went to trash because of these bosses. So what am I supposed to do ? Throw 18 hour of game away and start again with a "warrior" ?
What's the point of infiltration then ?

Urahara
28th Aug 2011, 19:51
1. More Augmentations
You only got a few, and most is for hacking!

2. Vary the Augmentations more, and make them actually worth owning.
If only 1 battery refills why bother getting more? Most of the augments you really don't need, and with the way you guys are stingy with praxis points why would I bother experimenting? Look at Zone of the Enders 2, they made sure for that sequel that every weapon you have is usable and worth using in that game compared tot he first one.

3. Better animations.
Talking battles are really cool, the horrible facial animations and so forth drag it down and hold that feature back. Not looking for Team Bondi level, just better than what you have now.

4. Don't punish me for kicking ass and taking names.
I shouldn't be penalised experience points simply because I rather have a shoot out then sneak around and knock people out.

5. Stop being so stingy with praxis points.

6. Boss battles really do suck.
I don't mind killing them, just make it worth my time. Shooting at a guy, like Barret, who soaks up more damage than a regular guy isn't fun. Give me options in how I kill them, make it exciting, add some mechanics to change it up.

7. Better load times.

8. Better opening.
For a man whose whole body was rebuilt, you couldn't tell from that surgery movie in the beginning. Anti climatic, barely showed anything, close ups on items you have no clue to what they are like the graft, and quite simply could have been done much better. I shouldn't have to find notes on my surgery to find out I'm basically Robocop of 2027. If you were afraid of showing too much blood or being graphic offer people the option of watching the wussy version of the opening.

9. Pull an Ubisoft.
Haven't beaten the game yet, but I assume Jensen is still alive. If he is, pull an Ubisoft and give him a sequel before redoing the first Deus Ex. Jensen, like Ezio, has a few more games in him in my opinion.

!0. You have blades in your arm, how can you not have a melee option?
The blades in Jensen's arms can;t possibly be for popping out like a jack in the box and retracting in right away. It doesn't even make any sense martial wise or in a practical sense.
You're telling me Jensen can't extend the blade and leave it there so he can hack and slash enemies, cut through a jungle, or make fire wood in a survival situation? At the very least Jensen should be able to use the blade melee style and kill people that way in a fight.

Also as others before me have mentioned, fix these problems too:

"Hacking
The hacking levels were kind of ridiculous. "You can't hack this because you don't have the level 2 hack augmentation". They should at least let me try it. That's an artificial boundary. Give me a penalty, give me a more severe punishment if I fail, but don't outright say "no hacking allowed". That's silly."

"1. Lethal vs Non-lethal Take Downs - I have no problem with non-lethal take downs being the primary form of close quarter incapacitation, however, the lack of an exp bonus and the the ridiculous alarm range makes lethal take downs out of the question for anyone looking to maximize their bonuses. It seems like this is forcing a pacifist morality on the player more so than common sense. Two metal blades through someone's lungs or neck is not going to make them scream in pain because they would be completely incapable of doing so given the injury. I would add a lethal exp bonus to match the merciful bonus, and reduce the range of notification for lethal take downs. Non-lethal would still be heavily preferred, but performing a lethal take down on a lone enemy with practically no one around would not be prohibited based on the game play mechanics." - There really is no reason why you can;t kill someone silently with your blades or augmented arms. Go look at a marine training manual, and look at how they kill guards silently with blades. I don;t see how Jensen can;t do something like that, be it slightly different.

"2. Hacking vs Key Codes - There seems to be an incredible exp bias when it comes to hacking. It's almost to the point where many of the augmentations pay for themselves given the amount of exp you get. This seems rather ridiculous to me. Managing to find a Key Code through pocket secretaries or other means is usually far harder to accomplish than hacking. You are encouraged to hack even if you already have the code, which is completely nonsensical. I would suggest giving the same amount of exp that would be given for completing the hack if a correct Key Code is entered in. The bonus from hacking would then come from data storage that contains exp, credits, stop worms, and nukes. Hacking would then become an option rather than a must have."


I really do love this game, but you really do need to fix/look into these things. Here's hoping for a sequel!

Frag Maniac
28th Aug 2011, 20:29
I don't think they could change the main parts I see as weak.

1. Graphics are sub par for a AAA title. The textures are low res on many things, and the explosion effects are horrible. Even the polygons on many items are low count, like octagonal paint cans and poorly drawn bicycles. Outdoor maps are smallish with narrow, short city streets and NO traffic.

2. AI is terrible. Enemies are supposed to be sight AND sound alert, but mostly just sight, and even then they don't investigate very well. They'll often times open a door without even looking in, or go near a suspicious sound, like a door or elevator opening, but not all the way to it. I've at times ran right around the peripheral of a guard then behind him, within just 2 or 3 feet of him, only for him to SLOWLY turn around and say "What was that?", as he walks away from me.

3. There's no tranq pistol, the rifle takes far too much room for such a weapon. Chances are if you need to sneak past someone, they're at medium range at best, not long range. Far Cry 2 is the only other game I've seen with a tranq rifle vs pistol, but at least there it made sense because the areas were more spacious and tranq rifles are common in big game wilderness areas.

There are probably more I'll notice after I've put some more time in. I've only just played up through the first boss fight. Clearly though the game lacks polish in a few key areas that won't likely get fixed. When you start with below average graphics, effects and AI, there's not much that can be done about it.

Forget DX11 and AAA ratings, this doesn't even qualify as a decent DX10 game, and is AA at best given the glaring weaknesses. Even CoD 4 blows it away on graphics, effects and AI. This is yet another in an increasingly long list of highly anticipated titles that fell to consolization.

As far as I can tell, the only reason other the the huge Dues EX fanbase that this title is averaging a 9/10 rating, is people are falling in love with sneaking around and unraveling a fairly good story via various high tech methods, while being entranced with the overall style and atmosphere of the maps and music, which isn't bad. Whether it's enough to warrant a 9/10 is personal preference entirely. Personally I expected more polish than what I've seen so far.

flib
28th Aug 2011, 20:29
Make WASD select more things. I really like that I can select convo options with WASD and E, and I want to be able to do such things with other things.
The hacking selector thing looks exactly the same as the convo selector, so it looks like it should be able to be selected like that too. This would be much more efficient and organic than picking it with the cursor. I often accidently misclick and end up losing the hack because of it. I could hack much better with just using the cursor to select a node and using the keyboard to select actions.
Also, using WASD to move the hack screen around feels wrong. It feels chunky and slow. I'd much rather drag it around with my mouse than use that.
At least give us the option to do it this way. (preferably enable by default)

Also, I'd like to be able to navigate emails and saved media with wasd as well. Having to move one of my hands to the arrow keys and pressing enter is WRONG.

Also, please try to do something about the overly expressive animations. This was worse in the pre-release build, but it's still really bad. The animations don't go with the conversations at all. I'd rather they all just stand there and talk, not shaking their heads and waving their hands all over the place like they're holding in a sizable payload. They look like they've been mounted on a stick and are being shaken from that stick.
This stands out really bad compared to all of the other animations in the game, which are generally really good.

Fox89
28th Aug 2011, 20:41
I'm only going to say one thing: more side missions, preferably hidden ones. I love this game completely, but I saw pretty much everything on my first playthrough. I'd love to be discovering new missions in obscure places on my second and third runs through.

There are other minor criticisms I have, but that's top of my wishlist. Basically this game is so good I just want more of it :)

Biggus
28th Aug 2011, 21:15
Story wise i dont understand how Megan found out about Adam`s perfect DNA


Player actions in hubs have zero impact on the game world - opposite of what was advertised
To many loose ends regarding sidequests

Fox89
28th Aug 2011, 21:20
Player actions in hubs have zero impact on the game world - opposite of what was advertised


You thought so? I felt the consequences of my actions were reasonably well reacted to. For example after completing one mission where I got bored and massacred everyone in derelict row, when I came back later some punks had moved in and were commenting on the mysterious deaths/disappearance of the gang.

Frag Maniac
28th Aug 2011, 21:37
Is it just me, or does the PC version, even after the patch, have issues with mouse clicks on corpse pickups and hack nodes feeling sluggish? I often get a delay or have to click a 2nd time because my first click doesn't register. I don't think it's my mouse either. I don't have mouse lag issues on any other game.

flib
28th Aug 2011, 21:51
Is it just me, or does the PC version, even after the patch, have issues with mouse clicks on corpse pickups and hack nodes feeling sluggish? I often get a delay or have to click a 2nd time because my first click doesn't register. I don't think it's my mouse either. I don't have mouse lag issues on any other game.

Yeah, I've been getting that exact same thing, too.

Dresden
28th Aug 2011, 22:19
Love the game but here are my suggestions. Some can be patched, others are for sequels.

Every weapon is too powerful. The armor piercing silenced 10mm kills any human with one headshot so why use anything else in stealth? Conversely, the exploding round revolver kills anything in one shot if you're a combat character, so why use anything else? EMP grenades kill large bots with one hit and they're plentiful. So you have these scary huge bots...that are basically pushovers. More so since they take ages to turn around. They should've been nearly impossible to kill with small arms fire like in DE1.

The Energy Cell System. There's no reason whatsoever to get more batteries. And when you do, they just get eaten by takedowns. Part of the problem is with the takedowns themselves. They should only eat 90% of a cell so it recharges afterwards. The other problem is that there isn't enough stuff that consumes energy. Strength should drain it faster. The X-Ray vision hardly drains it at all. That also makes Mark and Track a lot less useful. Icarus should drain a cell as well. Cloak is fine. There's really just no reason to get more cells.

Story lacks urgency. With exception to the hostage mission. DE1's final missions were urgent and epic. A sort of 11th hour feel. I'm not sure why DEHR didn't. Maybe because there was no real villain. No one taunting me over the infolink repeatedly. And on that note, none of the bad guys really seemed to care about stopping Jenson. Darrow's insanity killswitch didn't seem that big of a deal to me. It felt far off and easy to fix. And fighting zombies was kind of unexciting. They're easily outsmarted melee enemies. And I was even going non-lethal.

Some of the characters weren't explained at ALL. Who was Khan? Who are the black ops guys and the bosses? Were they explained in the book? I didn't read the book. Anyone in the game should be explained in the game.

Bosses don't belong here. Okay so killswitches weren't invented yet. Why couldn't we have other ways to avoid them? Stealthing by the encounter? Talking them down with our CASIE? Letting hacked bots kill them instead? It would've been 100x better if they weren't neatly set up boss arena fights at all, just "dudes like you who want you dead" like in DE1.

Pre-rendered movies. Just breaks up the game and makes you feel like you're watching a movie. None of that stuff couldn't have been done in-engine. Even the part with Zhao's penthouse. Taking our controls away while she talks would have been better. And movies for the elevator ride with Megan and entering a LIMB clinic? Just...why?

Bring back locational damage. Fallout New Vegas proves that this is still loved and great.

Experience penalizes certain players. Make killing enemies give the same experience as knocking them out. In a game about player choice, the XP penalties make no sense. You feel really penalized if you want to go combat. I would even go so far as to say giving XP for taking enemies down at all was a big mistake. Keep it like DE1. It will be better for players and to balance.

Dresden
28th Aug 2011, 22:36
Story wise i dont understand how Megan found out about Adam`s perfect DNA




It's explained. You just have to do some reading. Though this is probably inaccurate...I've only beaten the game once.

White Helix labs found out and was researching it. I think they were owned by Bob Page? The labs burned down but one woman saved Adam and had to put him up for adoption since she was mentally ill. Page tracked him down again and sent Megan to date him to get access to his DNA. Or maybe Page just convinced her to work for him instead after she was kidnapped. Something like that. I imagine Page told her either way.

Frag Maniac
28th Aug 2011, 23:26
I was thinking the same on energy cells Dresden, esp a whole one being wasted for a mere non lethal melee attack. I was wondering though if fully upgrading the energy augs changes that? As far as I know it doesn't because I only recall seeing augs that allow more cells or faster recharges. What's the point of faster recharges if only ONE cell remains intact?

They could use your idea of 90% drain for each cell before recharge, or offer a super cell aug, whereby all cells are combined into one big rechargeable cell. I think the 90% drain on the existing small cells would only make sense for melee though. They would have to get used up completely for other aug use, otherwise there's no sense in multiple cells.

Kynaeus
28th Aug 2011, 23:27
I think that the synthetic leg augmentation should be re-worked. The sprint duration upgrades shouldn't be under Implanted Rebreather (which should just be 2 points and give you gas immunity) because your entire legs are synthetic. How in the heck are stronger lungs and increased oxygen transportation supposed to make your legs run longer?

CASIE could be more useful if you could use it to haggle with merchants for increased sell and decreased buy prices.

Half a battery for non-lethal takedowns, one battery for lethal. It would be super if you could recharge more than the first battery but then there would be no point in having the energy boost bars, so don't bother changing the recharge. It's balanced the way it is

Purely ridiculous request but I want the ICARUS branch to include an upgrade to sprint down vents. CRAWL FASTER!

Please let us skip parts of the story-mandatory conversations. So annoying to listen to the exact same conversation because I didn't choose the right responses...

That's all I can think of for now

Fox89
28th Aug 2011, 23:40
Half a battery for non-lethal takedowns, one battery for lethal. It would be super if you could recharge more than the first battery but then there would be no point in having the energy boost bars, so don't bother changing the recharge. It's balanced the way it is

I like this idea. I do think the energy system could use a bit of work. If I were designing it, I think it would go a little something like this:

- One permanent energy bar by default. Aug upgrades give you new permanent energy bars.
- All permanent energy bars recharge gradually.
- Cyberboost instantly recharges one or more bars or, if all of them are full, gives you an additional one time use bar.

titlemenu
29th Aug 2011, 00:18
this game would be alot more fun if there was newgame +. everyone would enjoy playing the game over with all their augs, credits, and weapon upgrades. it sucks when you put soo many hours into building your character, to only have to do it all again. i want to be able to fully upgrade my character by playing over and over again.

rubiomhs
29th Aug 2011, 00:30
-make their damn heads bigger. good lord.

-wear police or belltower uniforms. how dumb is jensen for not taking advantage of disguises?

-third person view...of course they'd have to actually have a working crouched model...instead of a collapsed leg.

also

adam jensen has the perfect dna? laughable. the guy's quasi retarded and he proves it with everything he says or does

Fox89
29th Aug 2011, 00:40
-make their damn heads bigger. good lord.

-wear police or belltower uniforms. how dumb is jensen for not taking advantage of disguises?

-third person view...of course they'd have to actually have a working crouched model...instead of a collapsed leg.

also

adam jensen has the perfect dna? laughable. the guy's quasi retarded and he proves it with everything he says or does

Says the player who controls everything he says or does ;)

Angeles
29th Aug 2011, 00:57
Well big thumbs up for the game, the immersion, story were brilliant, i really enjoyed it.
Things i'd like to see improved which were a big downer to the game however

1 - exploration and questing:
This is probably due to false reading of the advertisements but the inability to travel between the city's on command was a huge let down. Quests should have also reflected this as well as adding a ton more side quests, i think the 1-3 side quests per chapter felt too constricting from mid game on, just felt off balance.
Travel time was also a big let down, running from one end of the city to another on each city felt far to unnecessary, a couple of fast travel points would have made a huge difference.
lastly without spoiling to much info, what ever happened to epic feeling endings, felt to much like metal gear solid

2 - weapons and items
Biggest issue here was the lack of a melee weapon, especially versus the amount of cardboard boxes.
there were so many cardboard boxes in the game with no purpose other then decoration and the ability to select it was very confusing? do i destroy it? Ok but nothing inside them!!, do i use them to build a little fort in my home? Well that ran out of being fun fairly fast.
The weapons and weapon types felt a bit off as well, i found it very easy to get through the majority of the game using the pistol with a silencer because it was the most viable for stealth play, however when wanting to continue that type of play i was suddenly very very limited to weapon choice. I drooled when i got my hands on the sniper rifle only to find i couldn't silence it, or adjust the scope making it a very useless weapon unless i wanted to draw attention.
The rest of the weapons didn't give a suited feel for situation, the rifle ammo was a huge problem to make it worth while when wanting to plow through enemy's, option for suppression fire or auto would go along way here

3 - Augmentations
Ok
3a - Energy augmentation are a complete waste in the game, the inability to actually recharge past 1 bar is a huge error in my mind and unless i go hunting for candy bars like a junkie i couldn't actually make the most use out of any of the activation augmentations, this was a very big flaw because i felt like i needed to keep that one bar for the melee takedown all the time.
The actual energy augmentation would make alot more sense if it recharged them all over time, i wondered if this was a severe bug or just a bad design decision, if it did recharge fully, it would certainly make alot more sense to have those limited candy bars about for an emergency boost rather then a reliant resource.

3b - typhoon augmentation is very pretty and i really wanted to use this more but i found about 2 maybe 3 situations where is was viably useful in the game! This was a big let down as enemy's were either to far spread to be effective or would shoot the crap out of you before getting close enough to unleash this weapon in all its glory.

3c - slow fall stun, same description as the typhoon really would have really loved alot more droping on enemy's sitting around a table or something to watch them fly and follow up with typhoon, just wasn't viable at all.

3e - hacking augs, way too many for whats meant to be a small section of the game, could have spent alot of points on getting goodies sooner then feeling forced to spend a majority of points here.

4 - hacking!
Hacking hacking hacking, instead of this being an average treat to fight through a firewall and gain access to the useful and game defining info, passwords and codes for high safes and security! It was a required nightmare, every shred of info on a computer, from how someone's date went to how hot the janitor was required hacking.. by the late game i'd say i ignored a lot of mail content computers and unnecessary door locks..etc simply because i was so sick and tired of it and it didn't feel rewarding... in this case, less is more!

5 - Experience
As previously stated, rewarding a specific type of play makes the game more liner then you should intend, if we wanna be bad ass on a quest, the only penalty should be the effects of the decision, not the amount of exp i gain.

6 - AI and combat
One of the strong points of the game but still room for improvement.
7a - Robots, now i would expect with all the advancements in augment tech and resistances to electricity that you can get, that at least 1 type of robot would have been designed to resist an emp grenade! robots were far to few and far to easy to kill where they could make some strong mini bosses or support to enemy troops.
6b - Bosses - These are key events in any game, i think alot more time should have been invested here to improve there ai and make them more challenging and adaptive to all forms of play inc stelth, being forced into playing shoot em up each boss was not so much fun.

7 - Misc
Can someone please explain, out of the available items you have to activate in the game, what exactly was the point of allowing the faucet to be used... some fetish Adam has about splashing?
Secondly what was the purpose of having every fridge lift-able in every apartment, yet he couldn't lift say the cupboard from beside the sink? i call discrimination on cupboards!

MarcMongrain
29th Aug 2011, 01:54
Personally, I tought immersion, gameplay and everything was great. There is just one thing I would have loved to have :

At the end of the game, we can't even go talk to Megan / Sarif / Pritchard.. it feels like the campaign stops at 80% of where it should end. It also would've been nice to just be able to walk around Detroit and just see what everyone has to say about the broadcast you've chosen.

Anyway, great game. I hope you ignore some of the angry kids' comments in here who comment the game not knowing what they're talking about when they clearly haven't played more than 30 mins.

Tuttle
29th Aug 2011, 02:11
My biggest complaint would be the fact that the moving silently augmentation do not stop the mines from exploding but walking crouched does. I thought with the way the sound dampener works it would by-pass that whole "it scans the vibrations in the air as you walk by" thing the description says.

Unless by vibrations it means the "rush" of air someone makes when they run; so a strong wind current could set the mines off or something

To edit in: I have a few smaller ones like that black couple you saved in the first mission; you think they would react to the going's on later in the game but no; he's too busy thanking you because you saved him and his wife to notice. That or the two had a psychotic breakdown from the incident in the first mission and just replay the events in their mind.

Oh yeah; some codes should be randomly generated on area load. Apart from the fact that I hacked everything I could (Excluding the one case where I didn't have the time to hack it) for the XP (And other rewards) it gave; a person could find all the door codes/passwords on a guide online and put them into the game without actually finding them himself. With randomized codes he'll still have to find them or hack the console.

Of course, some codes should be static.

MonkeyLungs
29th Aug 2011, 02:45
The game seems to have been built around a non lethal, stealth, hacking type character and all the other stuff kind of thrown together last minute. It would be cool if all gameplay types/approaches were equally viable.

Granted you don't HAVE to get max Xp from every enemey but it just seems a bit skewed when nonlethal takedowns are worth way more than headshots.

As said previously: If you find a code to a computer/safe and use it, you should get the same amount of XP as you get for hacking it.

Maybe XP system will be something they can fix in a patch, seems like relatively small fix of some math values.

Delano26
29th Aug 2011, 03:18
First up, I'd like to say that in my opinion the AI is great, as are the graphics. Maybe people just aren't used to such a bold art style? With the AI, I like how the enemies really converge on your position and work to surround you, and if they lose sight of you they go back to their patrols with a heightened state of alertedness.
As for what else I loved, in my opinion the cover system works well as an evolution of the 'lean' function of DE1 and makes combat more fluid and satisfying.

As for what I'd improve on if I was directing the next game...

1. Make the hubs smaller, and have more of them. I would have much preferred 4 smaller hubs (incorporating Montreal and Singapore) to make the world feel bigger. As it stands, you only visit 5 real locations, and Singapore and Montreal in name only. Because you're inside facilities in those countries, you could've told me I was in Australia/Nigeria and I would have believed you, there is nothing unique to set Montreal/Singapore aside from the mission areas of Detroit/Heng Sha which is a real shame. Just compare the scope of DE1 to HR, not just the sheer number, but the diversity of each location. http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Deus_Ex:_Human_Revolution_locations http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Deus_Ex_locations

2. Get rid of most if not all of the side quests or better incorporate them into the main storyline. Each side quest takes about half an hour, a good 5-10 minutes of that spent on character developing dialogue. Characters who never appear in the story ever again. Which in my opinion is just a huge waste. Why bother even doing the side quests when they have no impact on the main storyline? I think they're just an irrelevant distraction from the main story. Of course you can 'choose' to not accept quests, but that's not really a choice at all. If you don't do a side quest you'll miss out on weapons/ammo and most importantly, XP to spend on augments. And you NEED that XP. And because side quests have little to no impact on the main story, side quests become a grind for XP, nothing else. Had the sidequests had any affect on the main story, it might be different. The only exception to that is Pritchard's side quest about Jensen's past, which feels natural and a part of the story, but optional, which is how it should be.

3. Hide all experience gained information. Although you can technically choose to go in there guns blazing, charging through enemies, you get visibly punished for doing so, and visibly rewarded for exploring/stealth/non lethal. You get much more XP from playing non lethally, you get so much XP from crawling around in vents/taking alternate routes. XP is a valuable resource and once you figure out that exploring/stealth will get you more of it you're likely to not play CoD style - which is how some people might want to go about it. The XP system for upgrading works well, and should not be changed, bar one thing. If you hide the numbers and make it a mystery how you earn XP, people won't know that they're being punished for not playing stealthy until the 2nd or even 3rd playthrough. You can also clearly see this in the dialogue confrontation parts of the game (and this relates back to the way XP works). If you 'win' an argument you get 1000 XP, but if you 'lose' you get 100. But what if I want to suck up to Sarif? Nope, if you want that precious XP, you'll stand up to him. Now reload and try again. Again, this can be fixed with hiding the XP rewards. If the XP rewards were hidden, the player might not even be aware that there's a 'good' outcome to a debate until a second or even third playthrough.

4. Choices shouldn't be handed to you on a silver platter, and you shouldn't be told when you fail/succeed at something (saying that one route is correct is saying that another is incorrect, or less correct). The reason why DE1 felt so freeing was that the game never told you that you were playing it the wrong way. Every route was legitimate. You were rewarded not by the game, but through your own ingenuity and own sense of accomplishment. For instance, there's a scene in Pauls apartment where troops are banging down the door and he tells you to flee, save yourself. It wasn't until my 4th playthrough, when I read about it on the internet that I realized that Paul could be saved. I simply had no idea beforehand. For instance, what if when you escaped out the window the game told you "optional objective failed: Save Paul." It's telling you there's a right way to play it, and you did it wrong. If I want to shoot Omalley in the face after he gives me 1000 credits, I don't want to be told I just failed a bunch of quests. If the player is allowed to fail silently, then they may still try to complete the quest, and fail because they killed off an important quest character. This will make them think that maybe if they didn't shoot Omalley things might have gone different.

Instead of 'It'll be easier if you're not detected,' optional objective, 'I noticed you didn't get detected, so here's a bonus,' is FAR better - being told after the fact that what you did was good or bad is real choice. But clicking yes or no, or telling you there's an optional objective isn't a choice. That's a script. You're just 'choosing' which one to follow. For a real life parallel, think back to when you were a child. Lets say your parents tell you that if you wash the dishes, you will get McDonalds for dinner. So you do it and receive McDonalds. But what if you just decided to wash the dishes without your parents suggesting it? You still receive McDonalds, but you did a good deed because you wanted to, and the special dinner came from good karma, rather than as a pre-determined reward.

5. You should be able to pick up most objects with few exceptions. There's one reason why DE1 felt so much more alive, though there were a very small number of real world objects, you could interact and play with each of them. Why can't I throw chairs at my enemies and topple a table as makeshift cover? Why can't I use that paint bucket as a distraction? Instead I'm only allowed to interact with objects that the game gives me permission to interact with.

Dammit this is long. TLDR: read the first sentence of each number. Everything else is explanation for the first sentence.

killerp
29th Aug 2011, 04:57
The only one thing that is kind of strange for me is the alert level on non combatant npc's, for example you can massacre every enemy in an area (Even some innocent bystanders) & the non-combantants all go back to their normal alert level seconds later just going about their business like nothing has ever happened, stepping over all the corpses like they don't exist at all.

I would love to see a good or evil type character development scale like in Mass Effect & of course each side having their benefits when chatting.

Another issue I found is that there is not enough NPC's that are actually worth talking to! Must add more side quests!

P4NCH0theD0G
29th Aug 2011, 05:07
Option for Non-Lethal Takedowns when punching through walls.


Different/customizable button layout for consoles to make an action-oriented approach seem more in tune with a regular shooter experience:

LS: Movement; RS: Aim; L3: Sprint(Hold or Toggle); R3: Crouch (Hold or Toggle);

LT: Iron Sights (Hold); RT: Fire; LB: Cover (Toggle); RB: Grenade

The rest can stay as is.


Southpaw/Lefty controller layouts.


Eliminate the grunting sound Jensen makes when using an AUD.


Silent Lethal Takedowns.


Recharge of all Energy Bars - or - One Big Energy Bar slowly recharging and Takedowns cost one fourth of the bar - or - Energy Bars recharge as long as not fully depleted, Takedowns cost 90% of one bar.


XP-Balancing between Lethal and Non-Lethal approaches.


Freely modifiable weapons, i.e. Mods and Upgrades can be installed and de-installed at special workbenches in hub safe houses.


A "put things into a container" mechanic, so you don't have to just throw stuff on the ground.

Kynaeus
29th Aug 2011, 05:17
First up, I'd like to say that in my opinion the AI is great, as are the graphics. Maybe people just aren't used to such a bold art style? With the AI, I like how the enemies really converge on your position and work to surround you, and if they lose sight of you they go back to their patrols with a heightened state of alertedness.

No way. They could drop motion senor alarms where last you were seen. I want them to drop gas grenades, caltrops, shock webs, something!

As for what I'd improve on if I was directing the next game...


2. better incorporate [sidequests] into the main storyline.

Why did I investigate Megan's death if I can't mention any of it to Sarif? He was close to her too, wouldn't he be interested in the results??


I thought of another one. Please get rid of the current experience/credits windows faster after I finish hacking, it's usually in the way of the email I'm trying to read

bobwalt
29th Aug 2011, 06:15
I would change a couple of things. First I would make power bars much more prevalent. That would be a better choice than fully recharging all the batteries automatically. In the original Deus Ex l don't remember any batteries recharging automatically. I think awarding extra experience for stealth and nonlethal take downs is a good thing as the gaming industry is always being criticized for encouraging violence. However there could be an achievement added for the more bloodthirsty in which additional experience is awarded for killing all opponents in a mission. As a counterpart to ghost it could be called undertaker or maybe kick butt and take names. Next the sniper rifle needs to be much more lethal. Last I would abandon the 10ft UI on the PC version most text is gigantic. BTW-I did not feel the lack of melee combat to be a loss. I do not see the fascination with something that went out with the invention of gunpowder. It kinda reminds me of the scene Raider of the Lost Ark where this guy pulls out this sword and Indy shoots him.

MonsterZero
29th Aug 2011, 06:51
A new game + would have been nice, if only it gave you a limited number of augmentations to choose from. Would have loved to see a challenge mode where certain parts of the maps were sectioned off for this purpose with a choice of a loadout. Just played through once and will have another run through but can't say I will be as eager as I did every side misssion I came across... :mad2: Keeping my fingers crossed for some quaility DLC :D

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
29th Aug 2011, 07:16
The game unfortunately fails in some areas that made the original great.

- boring NPCs - they have no character. No personality. No personal goals, opinions. They aren't memorable. They're used by developers to be in-game encyclopedias that know everything about augmentations and talk about nothing else.

- boss battles - forced on you, give you no other choice but to dispose of the bosses using brute force, it'd be nice if we could for example leave the battle so that the boss would end up later in the story

- BAD LEVEL DESIGN - the levels consist of sets of narrow corridors with the option of shooting your way through or sneaking through. The levels in DX were much more open, gave you more possibilities

- no subtexts - Deus Ex had Jacob's Shadow, The Man Who Was Thursday, underlying themes (freedom in the internet age & collapse of the society among other things), references to Bible - all of that was subtely implemented. HR has nothing, it's empty in that regard. It has no good writing to supplement the gameplay and the world facing the augmentation revolution, it only touches on some themes during conversations and nowhere else, hence it all feels forced.

- the gameplay mechanics are also dumbed down compared to the original , things like weapon accuracy and many skills are gone for no reason

- health regen needs to go away

- static environment compared to DX, which allowed you to toy around to a greater degree

RedFeather1975
29th Aug 2011, 08:23
Add in some item storage crates.

Ability to remove ammo and mods from weapons.

Ability to pick up doubles of a weapon.

Ambidexterity augmentation that allows dual wielding weapons.

Melee weapons.

More variety in weapon drops. eg. weapons with unique mods or rare ammo types.

Locked doors show their vulnerability rating.

More sidequests that allow influencing faction loyalty or hostility towards each other, and/or towards main character.

Multiple instances that allow appealing to an antagonist before their boss battle. Such that they may switch sides in a multi-boss battle if you managed to sway them over the course of the game. How cool would that be?

Option to keep bosses alive after you beat them. Maybe they will appear later to help or offer some assistance in the form of intel.

Secret areas that require playing with the world's physics in clever ways in order to reach them.

Hidden ways in receiving new augmentation options.

LostLogic
29th Aug 2011, 10:12
Throwing in my 2 cents.

* Boss fights should have more options than run and gun. If you wish to take down a boss by disabling him/her and reap the consequences of it, you ought to be able to.
* Smashing walls should have the same option as takedowns. Hold long to kill, tap quick to knock out
* More side-quests!!!!
* A more intelligent HUD map that zoomed in to the area where people could see and hear you. At the moment it's hard to tell which way NPC's are facing due to the screen resolution

Lee337
29th Aug 2011, 10:54
When the crosshairs are turned off, you have to use the iron sights or laser in 1st person mode, but in 3rd person the only way to aim is by using a laser, without it you are firing blind and it makes 3rd person shooting useless. I think there needs to be an option to turn off the crosshairs in 1st person but have them reappear when shooting from cover in 3rd person.

I played for the first time on the most difficult mode, so I guess other settings had more ammo, but I got pretty fustrated trying to find ammo. In the end I just go bored of it and it turned into a pure stealth game. I'd get maybe 1 to 3 bullets out of each gun I found. Made me wonder why all the enemies were wondering around with empty guns.


There was no basic melee attack. I can understand the takedown move using energy to stop it from becoming overpowered, but there was no way to attack someone up close without the use of guns. There should have been a low powered melee attack.

The endings were awful, especially how you simply choose an ending from a button.

I hated the boss fights too.

thomazzz428
29th Aug 2011, 11:29
First i would like to say, a lot of respect for you guys in Montreal! it's been a while since i played a game non stop for 2 days straight :nut:

- third person perspective looks awsome and i'm surprised of how smoothly it switches between perspectivs.
for a 4th game i would maybe give players the possibility to switch from 1st to 3d?
- why isn't it possible to pick up all items in the game? even if it's just pick up and throw?
And what's with the empty cardboard boxes??????
- i would like to have more items in stores and limb clinics. i cant imagene a store that's sold out after 4 purchases..
- off course i would also suggest more augmentations! just love it to customize jensen :)
- jumping and climing should be better, at least make the character grab on to ledges! he's half machine 4 godsakes and the guy can only jump 2feet...

thats all for now. It's been a while since a game had hooked like this one.

great job, and keep up the good work.

skribe
29th Aug 2011, 11:49
I haven't seen this one mentioned yet. Less English and fewer North American accents in foreign ports please. It breaks the immersion. Wandering down dark streets in places where nobody around you can speak the same language (and you stand out like a sore thumb amongst the locals) is wonderfully alienating.

Plaque
29th Aug 2011, 12:48
First of all - a huge thank you to the team (love the art, sound & brilliant level design). The game is EXCELLENT. 10/10.

Things I would change:

- I would remove the high price rewards for selling of the weapons...it's not necessary and it makes for easy cash earned in awful gamish way, few shotguns brought to merchant will make more credits than a completed main quest. I'd keep the economy only around ammo/mods.*

- Experience bonuses... this is a design flaw. It sadly encourages players to "knock out everyone & hack everything". It also prevents players from enjoying the game in its variety, because solving game's situations in any other way - such as sneaking past the enemies completely or enjoying a good skirmish against them - suddenly feels like playing the game wrong. Capricious game designer says: you had fun? No, you messed this. I am not giving you experience points until you load the game and take them all down up-close and non-lethally.

Let me state a few examples:

1) A shot fired feels not only like a wasted ammo, but also a wasted experience. There is a number of great skirmishes in the game, but I would feel like I am not getting out the most of the game, so I solve all the situations in the same way: non lethal takedowns. It makes the game unnecessarily repetitive.
I'd remove the 'expedient' and 'merciful' bonuses.

2) A passcode typed in should yield the same rewards as a successful hacking. I'd remove the automatic EXP bonuses for hacking, like 'gray hat','black hat', '1337 skillz' etc. and I'd only leave those that are earned in the minigame.

"I found a really well hidden secret password... but no, I won't type it in, I will hack the damn thing instead." There should be less passwords lying around, they should be harder to get, but they need to provide the same bonuses as the hacking. Also, locks with password should be harder to hack in order to justify a search for a passcode.

3) a suggestion: When I can smash down WALLS... why can't I smash some DOORS too? I mean it would make perfect sense. Not all doors, but some. It would also make the augmentation more useful.

4) This one would be difficult to implement and is def not important but...- I would love if enemies would fire blindly into the air vents if they know you're in there ;) And checked the vents more frequently when alerted.

Things I like although others don't:

1) I LIKE Bossfights, game needs a challenge like that, the adversaries must show their teeth from time to time. The game has to remind the superstealthy pacifists players of the dangers of their chosen path, and also that in the real world, some evil people can't be negotiated with.

2) I LIKE hacking level ceiling that limits hacking of the higher level locks. Angry you can't attempt to hack level 5 lock ? Well, next time think twice about investing a praxis point.

*) why would a weapon merchant want to buy a weapon with unknown history anyway? Why would he risk the heat from acquiring a murder weapon or an ATF tracked weapon? I mean he might buy it, but only incredibly cheap - around 50-100 credits the most, not for a half of what he's charging...

a2moosh
29th Aug 2011, 13:06
- NPC's are way too static. I would apreciate them moving around much more. As it is here, it reminds me Hitman 1 or 2, but this is not state of the art.
- Knocked down enemies still lay around after hours... there should be a timeout in play-time (maybe 3-4 hours).
- NPC's should be suspicious when doors, vents or laser-traps are open or disabled
- computers should be locked again after a while. e.g. I was sneaking through the whole police dept. after my first mission - what was quite hard - and now - hours and missions later - all computers are still unlocked and i can still walk through the police dept., as if nothing happened meanwhile.

- loading takes quite a long time - even on a SSD harddrive and 4 gb ram - and theres a 3-4 sec lag in the beginning after loading a map. This leads to a shooting boss, while i'm still handicaped in my movements..there should be a grace period.

Sigilaikin
29th Aug 2011, 13:44
My biggest issue is the battery recharge only working on one battery. I don't feel badass having to eat a protein bar before using my augments. In the first 2 games you feel badass after getting a few upgrades, in this one I have to constantly keep looking at my batteries wondering why adam just didn't go to the gym instead of getting arm augs with all the protein bars he eats.

luxztizer
29th Aug 2011, 14:21
Sorry since this is a spoiler forum I can't check to see if this was already covered but please please please let me turn off the radio or at least put it on the music channel, the dialog channel is always turned up way loud for my games and the ability to turn off television is fantastic but the radios remain immune to bullets and impossible to silence without killing all the dialog.

Fox89
29th Aug 2011, 14:35
Sorry since this is a spoiler forum I can't check to see if this was already covered but please please please let me turn off the radio or at least put it on the music channel, the dialog channel is always turned up way loud for my games and the ability to turn off television is fantastic but the radios remain immune to bullets and impossible to silence without killing all the dialog.

Yeah, especially as the radios tend to loop it would be nice to be able to turn them off.

On a radio related note, I'd love to see a game like this allow you to stream music off your hard drive into the in-game radios. Then I'd find an off radio, put Ride of the Valkyries on and climb up a nearby ladder. Then when the bad guys investigated, I would Icarus land, typhoon and then takedown/shoot any stragglers. Thus creating the most awesome moment in any video game EVER.

Vendetta11
29th Aug 2011, 15:11
If I were to change anything, I would have the additional power cells be able to slowly recharge instead of just the one. I felt like upgrading my power cells to the max was a waste. I understand that you don't want the character to be too overpowered, so if you don't want to have the cells recharge on their own it's understandable. However, you could patch in some "re-charge" bots just like in the original Deus Ex scattered around to allow you to recharge. Or, if you enter a new hub, have Jensen start off with being fully charged. Just a thought.

Boss fights.... ugh.....

Otherwise, awesome game!!!

pawwh98
29th Aug 2011, 16:32
I also think that the augmentation for extra energy cells is underpowered the way it is. At least the description should make it absolutely clear that the extra cells are not recharged automatically so that people don't have to waste a point on the talent to find out how it actually works.

anunnaki
29th Aug 2011, 18:54
Just finished the game, as a whole it's a work of art but there are alot of fine points it seems they messed up or didn't even pay attention too at all. It's sad to see such a masterpiece go seemingly unfinished so my first wish is modding support, so all of these ideas can come to life. Also......

I don't get why there are so few people in the streets without augmentations. The only ones with visible augmentations are either cops, mercs or thugs. The only civilians with them are at the limb clinics and it was a shame to see such beautiful sculpting go to waste. The NPC's seemed so bland at times and the augmentations would have changed that, mix it up man. Same for some of the enemies, I didn't see any augmented belltower boys besides the one cutscene when they use the Icarus and the harvesters all looked way too much alike and it killed the sense diversity, I was expecting some wicked sh** in the department. And I love how not one employe of an augmentation company was visually augmented other than Adam and Sarif....like really? I thought augmentations were going to run ramped in the game but it was quite the opposite.

I would have liked more in the moment situations, like in DE when the pimp is about to kill his hoe and you decide how to act. Maybe have a group of thugs about to jump an augmented person, things like that. I was very disappointed with how little expression from NPC's there was, I wanted to see some punks on the side walk showing off there new augs "look at this sh*** man i'm like a super human now." *punches a crack in a brick wall* Random people talking more about augmentations and how they have effected there lives. "I didn't do this for me, I want my children to be happy and there childrens children. I'm doing this because I want to make a foundation and secure a good future for my family by doing the best I can while im here." The trailers i've seen didn't really shine through in the game for the most part, I wanted to see how society was effected on a deeper scale. Having those random events come from the NPC's would really bring everything to life and there are so many ways to do it. People can't keep there shops open because augs are using cloaks and stealing everything and the cops can't catch them unless they get augmented too. A mother so bent on her child doing well in school she pushes the child to get brain augmentations. The choices are endless. Just having some people playing with a dumpster in an ally would be impossible not to notice and take in as an expression of moral ethics. I wanted to really see this stuff getting out of hand.

No more of those cutscenes, use the in game engine, also IMO the acting and character design could have been better one some people, I felt nothing but displeasure for most of the female characters not because I don't like them visually but there acting and roles didn't feel authentic or realistic. Malik was the only one that seemed like a real person even though she was one of the victims of the horrid default voice acting animation all second rate characters used. As a whole I feel like the game had some moments that just didn't fit somehow, the story was good at some points and at others felt like a B sci fi flick and the acting didn't help. I was hoping it would be....darker? More depressing honestly. It didn't always retain that emotional state I got from watching the trailers.

I wanted to see more of Adams character. I wanted to see the side of him when he wasn't kicking ass and taking names. There wasn't enough emotion from him considering all he has been through, besides the broken mirror there was little of Adams struggle within. It would have made him a reflection of the changing world around him and really brought that serious tone to the game. I was waiting for a cutscene were he just breaks down and tries to take everything in like a damn human being.

Better take downs. I'd prefer to do away with them all together but if your going to use them make them actual martial arts.

Wider color palate.....nuff said.

Better AI, derp de derp. those little things make the difference. "why are you moving that vending machine?!" When enemies use EMP or concussion grenades they are suppose to advance on you while you are hindered. Don't always pop out of cover the same way, actually sprint for cover, covering fire, use cloaks properly and other augs like jumping. I would have loved to see some enemies trap me by jumping on some containers and getting behind me or cloaking a long route. they didn't blind fire or jump from cover to cover and like any game the voice acting in combat isn't believable. It needs to be integrated into the actions of them and the player. "give me covering fire!" "He's moving left cut him off!" "he's cloaked watch out." "He's behind the dumpster." so on and so on. When they are alerted to a sound, have one or two investigate and have the rest take cover ahead of time to give them cover fire from a distance. Instead of walking blindly into a room one at a time have them execute a breach and clear.

more choice, less boss fights

And finally for Gods sake keep the traditions! make the endings all more unique and put epic quotes at the end of them I mean CMON!!!!!! And the symbol? Why on earth would you refuse to use the symbol that represents the essence of Deus Ex. That symbol IS deus ex and always will be no matter what. I should have seen it the first time I loaded that menu, even invisible war did that right. :mad2:

mattlistener
29th Aug 2011, 19:05
Two improvements for Hacking:

There's too much of an XP penalty for going without Hacking augs. It would be a better game if the base XP award for hacking a device applied for any method of defeating the device, including entering the correct password. That would correctly reward the exploration approach (find a pocket secretary / overhear something / etc and then also locate the correct place to use the information). There are still occasional XP rewards in datastores, but if that's all you were after it would then be harder to justify spending the 5000 XP per point of hacking-related augmentations.

On the flip-side, it would also be cool to make hacked devices detectable by guards. Hacking:Fortify could then additionally reduce this. Either "Guards detect hacked devices from a moderate/short/up-close range", or "Guards get Hostile/Alarmed/Suspicious" when noticing a hacked device, with the highest level making your hacked devices undetectable. That would have integrated hacking into the game world even more -- you'd have to decide between taking out guards whose patrol route would discover your hack, investing in the relevant augment, or using a password after all.

Starke
29th Aug 2011, 22:31
this game would be alot more fun if there was newgame +. everyone would enjoy playing the game over with all their augs, credits, and weapon upgrades. it sucks when you put soo many hours into building your character, to only have to do it all again. i want to be able to fully upgrade my character by playing over and over again.

It's not very Deus Ex, but I have to agree, a new game plus option could be a lot of fun. Where you retain your augmentations and items from the previous play-through.

Additionally, it would be nice if finishing the game unlocked a new game mode where most (or all) of the augmentations you get for free in the tutorial are disabled. So, no health regeneration, no silent infolink, no energy regeneration, no hud, and so on, until you spent praxis on them. A good example of this would be the rookie mode in Alpha Protocol.

The only other thing that it strikes me this game could really benefit from is the ability to activate and deactivate the silencer and laser attachments on weapons. I don't care if the mod itself is separated from the weapon, and would somewhat prefer if they weren't, but the laser can actually make picking up items or interacting with one's environment more difficult on occasion, and the silencers can actually limit your tactical options on occasions. (To be clear, I'm talking about unscrewing and pocketing the silencer, but not separating it back out as a distinct attachment in one's inventory.)

Alternate ammo loads could be interesting, as could hand held melee weapon, like the tactical baton or combat knife from the first game.

Nokturnalex
29th Aug 2011, 23:46
I love this game to death, but here are some things wrong with the game. I really enjoyed it. If I had to give it a number rating, it would probably be above a 90% score.

Bosses
I didn't like the boss battles. I thought they seemed really contrived. I played on the "Give me Deus Ex" difficulty level, and I still found the bosses lacking in difficulty. Barrett was the only hard boss for me, but in the end, he actually ended up killing himself with his own frag grenade.
I didn't take any damage from Federova at all and I thought her boss battle was lacking. You could literally just sprint right past her and not take any damage from her typhoon attack.
Namir was slightly better, but I cheaped out on his boss fight and just ran around the outside perimeter of the arena and he couldn't find me until I shot him.
The final boss was the worst though, in my opinion. Not even difficult. I had 3 EMP grenades, so I could kill the sentry robots easily. I didn't like that you had to kill Zhao Yun's daughters. They should have given you a choice to spare them. They were obviously suffering and I did a mostly less-than-lethal playthrough. It just didn't seem like something "Adam Jensen" would do. The ending was so anti-climactic too.

Hacking
The hacking levels were kind of ridiculous. "You can't hack this because you don't have the level 2 hack augmentation". They should at least let me try it. That's an artificial boundary. Give me a penalty, give me a more severe punishment if I fail, but don't outright say "no hacking allowed". That's silly.

A few things I didn't like about Stealth
You could hide behind clearly see-through railings and things in the game without people noticing you, but people can still see you through glass. It kind of broke the immersion for me

Also, you could do a cover-to-cover transition in an enemy's field of view and he wouldn't notice you sometimes.

Those are all my problems with this game. The rest of the game was excellent. I've replayed it two times thus far and I'm doing a third, melee-only playthrough.
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1. Lethal vs Non-lethal Take Downs - I have no problem with non-lethal take downs being the primary form of close quarter incapacitation, however, the lack of an exp bonus and the the ridiculous alarm range makes lethal take downs out of the question for anyone looking to maximize their bonuses. It seems like this is forcing a pacifist morality on the player more so than common sense. Two metal blades through someone's lungs or neck is not going to make them scream in pain because they would be completely incapable of doing so given the injury. I would add a lethal exp bonus to match the merciful bonus, and reduce the range of notification for lethal take downs. Non-lethal would still be heavily preferred, but performing a lethal take down on a lone enemy with practically no one around would not be prohibited based on the game play mechanics.

2. Hacking vs Key Codes - There seems to be an incredible exp bias when it comes to hacking. It's almost to the point where many of the augmentations pay for themselves given the amount of exp you get. This seems rather ridiculous to me. Managing to find a Key Code through pocket secretaries or other means is usually far harder to accomplish than hacking. You are encouraged to hack even if you already have the code, which is completely nonsensical. I would suggest giving the same amount of exp that would be given for completing the hack if a correct Key Code is entered in. The bonus from hacking would then come from data storage that contains exp, credits, stop worms, and nukes. Hacking would then become an option rather than a must have.

Ability to use the WASD keys while hacking in combination with the mouse to select your node options, misclicking due to the cursor suddenly choosing stop (and therefore wasting a stop) even though you're mousing over capture isn't fun.

Besides how horribly designed the boss fights were. I found the exp difference really obnoxious.

Like wtf is the point of learning a keycode or password if by using them you lose xp/credits/hacking-items by not hacking it? I found myself never bothering to read the PDA's i found because i never cared about the passwords or keycodes.

Then there's the problem with lethal vs non-lethal. You shouldn't get more xp for being a pacifist, that's just forcing people to play the game the way you want them to play. (Currently I'm getting really bored with always being forced to play a good guy in RPGs, even the evil options in RPGs aren't evil enough for me, c'mon where's the slave trading, kidnapping and mass-murder?)

The detection difference in Lethal vs Non-lethal was/is crazy also. I'm pretty sure slitting someone's throat in real life makes less sound then trying to beat them into a sleep state, even a sleeper hold would make more sound then just insta-killing someone with a blade.

And what's with the arguably coolest Aug in the game always being lethal? Did the crazy smart scientists that designed the Typhoon never consider that rubber bullets could be substituted for explosives? Or maybe flash bangs? Or knockout gas? Or... shall I keep goin?

The biggest thing I'd add though... DEFINITELY ADD. A stat screen.

Telling you how many people you've killed so far, how many people you've knocked out in melee, how many people you killed with a pistol, etc,etc,etc. Mainly because I screwed up my pacifist achievement somewhere along the line even though I'm pretty sure I checked every single person to make sure they had Zzz's. And i'm not so hardcore that i'll play the game all over again to make sure I get it, it was tedious the first time and a 2nd time would probably make me go insane with no way to check to see if someone killed themselves after I knocked them out magically.

(Hell once I had to reload cause some chick ran away from me and later I was walking along an alleyway and saw her dead on the ground... I was like "Ok... wtf killed this chick? I didn't even touch her...Did she decide to climb the nearby fire escape and jump to her death because some guy was hacking a security terminal near her?")

DarkStar33Cdn
29th Aug 2011, 23:47
My biggest issue is the battery recharge only working on one battery. I don't feel badass having to eat a protein bar before using my augments. In the first 2 games you feel badass after getting a few upgrades, in this one I have to constantly keep looking at my batteries wondering why adam just didn't go to the gym instead of getting arm augs with all the protein bars he eats.

Agreed, as long as you dont fully discharge a battery it should recover over time to full. However if you choose to discharge the entire thing, then you have to boost it with a consumable.

At the same time perhaps rework the capacity aug to include an energy reduction across all augmentations (play it off like you increased the capacity/efficiency of the batteries). Right now the additional battery augmentation is worthless and forces you to rely on consumables or waiting for that final battery to recharge.

uv23
30th Aug 2011, 00:03
I've been following this game from the start, pre-ordered as soon as I could, and would love to say it was the 10/10 I was dreaming of. But now that I've finished the game, the most I could give it is an 8. Its obvious Eidos poured their hearts into it the design and passion are plain to see. Most of my disappointment stems from what feels like poor RPG execution:

Too short. I took my time, finished every side quest, hacked every computer. And yet total game time couldn't have been more than 20 or 25 hours.

Too small. Sparse population, small environments, and a shockingly deficient number of side quests make the game feel small and non-immersive.

No emotional attachment. Jensen is a character in the game but he never felt like my character. I couldn't name him, change his appearance, or make any meaningful dialog decisions. This resulted in more of an on rails experience than a rich RPG experience.

Linearity. Progressing from hub to hub with no going back made the game feel very constrained. IMO open world, or as close to it, is infinitely more rewarding.

That's all I've got for now. I don't want any of this to sound like entitled complaining, but I wanted to be honest about my disappointment and hopes for the next game. Cheers.

Akiharho
30th Aug 2011, 00:28
how about a mode where you actually feel like the worlds most advanced augmented person, so you actually got to play like one...honestly recharging only one battery, cant melee, can only do fancy c.q.c take downs. you depends on a protein candy bar for energy...um isnt that whats wrong with the world today depending on to much candy bars, don't encourage america to become fatter than it already is, lol.

my biggest gripe was the fact that they went out of there way to convince you that you where the most advance augmente person to date put together ,and then they hamper you with certain aspect , and the excuse is because it would make the game easy.. isnt that why they made jensen so he could defeat just about anyone and redeem sariff and his company for what they did.

i want to feel like the best , not like im the best but i cant act like the best because i might finish my mission to easily.

LaMort13
30th Aug 2011, 00:50
Just to be clear, I give this game a 95/100 score. I think it’s a great game, and I’d recommend it to anybody. However, the thread is about constructive criticism, so here goes.


Bosses



Bosses



Bosses


Many people already said the main points, but I agree so whole-heartedly that I’m going to repeat them here:

1) Bosses

Everything except the Bosses encourages freedom, choice and creativity. The Bosses encourage either stun locking via Stun Guns (I killed ¾ Bosses without them moving or shooting) or ridiculous gun/grenade spam from behind a pillar. Absolutely non-sequitur and brainless. I killed (since I don’t have a non-lethal choice) the last Boss while eating a donut. All you have to do is hack the right terminal. Boring, and stupid. The analogy I would make is like ending Portal 2 with a massive 2D side-scrolling platform level. The Bosses—in their current iteration—don’t belong in the game.

2) Hacking

I really, really liked the mini-game. I also agree with the many people that have said that the xp bonus is much too high. And yes, why don’t the pocket secretaries give you a bonus?

3) Stealth vs Lethal

Again, I personally really liked the stealth rewards, but now that I’m doing a second all-lethal run, I feel a little bit cheated that I’m losing out on 750+xp for each mission. (cf. “Ghost” and “Smooth Operator” bonuses) A small, tiny boost for each kill/take down would be one fix, making it so that enemies “wake up” á la MGS4 would be another.


And also one of my own:

4) Praxis Points

Those are the biggest complaints that I have, but another small one is maybe unique to myself, and it involves the Praxis Upgrade Points. It is possible, albeit with strict requirements, to have all but 9-10 upgrade points by the end of the game. This means that my character had mastered every upgrade track except the Stealth Enhancements (the Track and Mark one, not Cloaking) and the Arm tree (in which I had only one upgrade--inventory.) That is...a bit silly. After all, if the game is about choice, how come my character can have his cake, and eat it, too? Now, that said, the requirements are pretty steep. (I can post them if people are interested...)

Nokturnalex
30th Aug 2011, 01:33
4) Praxis Points

Those are the biggest complaints that I have, but another small one is maybe unique to myself, and it involves the Praxis Upgrade Points. It is possible, albeit with strict requirements, to have all but 9-10 upgrade points by the end of the game. This means that my character had mastered every upgrade track except the Stealth Enhancements (the Track and Mark one, not Cloaking) and the Arm tree (in which I had only one upgrade--inventory.) That is...a bit silly. After all, if the game is about choice, how come my character can have his cake, and eat it, too? Now, that said, the requirements are pretty steep. (I can post them if people are interested...)

I actually did every sidequest, found every little hidden area I could, knocked out as many people with non-lethal takedowns as I could and managed to end the game with only missing the 2 Hacking Augs that only give you more information on nodes (Seriously, nodes already tell you what they do, wtf is the point of it?) and I only had 1 point out of 3 in the Mark/Tag Aug (if you really need to track more then 3 people at a time you got a problem)

So I was only 4 praxis away from being completely augged. The last 4 being completely useless.

(To me at least, i already had like 40+ stop worms and nukes left over for hacking, and seriously I only would track 1 person at a time if at all the entire course of the game)

My problem with the praxis/augs was that there were way too many useless Augs and augs that were obviously dragged out into upgrades just to force you to dump more points into them. (Really, I have to upgrade my sprint by 2.5 seconds twice instead of just 5 seconds once?) If anything I would've prefered the ability to infinitely dump points into inventory augs to make room for every single item I looted. (I'm addicted to Loot, I admit it)

Redem
30th Aug 2011, 02:06
Ammo distribution need to be improve, it make no sense you get two bullets from some guy if you guy your way out you ran out of Ammo pretty quickly

A non-battery base melee weapon would be nice

and they should be one upgrade that allow you to regenerate the battery without eating or at least allow the disturtion machine to give you candy bar

More hubs and also more diversity enviroment, seeing gold and brown urban area all the time ain't that fun

P4NCH0theD0G
30th Aug 2011, 03:33
A grab-ledge mechanic.

A customizable map with unlimited user markers that you can name (Seurat, Weapons Cache, Lvl 5 Security Door etc...).

An augment that makes Takedowns cost only 90%/75% of one Energy Bar.

An augment that lowers the energy cost of every other augment by 5%/10% including Takedowns and punches through walls.

Another slot on the Energy Augment that only unlocks when all other Energy Upgrades are bought:
Recharge of fully depleted Bars: starts after significant waiting period without Energy Use (45-60 seconds), continues at full re-charge rate until bar is full, then another waiting period for the next bar.

Energy Recharge Stations in the Environment.

Energy Siphon Augment: Let's you gain a certain amount of energy from successfully hacking computers, cameras, turrets, robots or from killed enemies (nothing from unconscious ones).

Ratiocinative
30th Aug 2011, 03:56
Game Difficulty:
+ AI is responsive and has good accuracy.
- The hard difficulty should be hard. If nothing else, just add more difficulty levels.
- AI should stop crowding around dead\unconcious bodies.
- AI should throw more grenades, especially frag grenades.
- Enemies on harder difficulties need more hit points. Even heavies on hard can be killed with 1 head shot from a fully upgraded revolver most of the time.

Ending:
- Ending should have been more creative. In comparison to how awesome the first 90% of the game was, the last 10% was embarassing.
- The ending mission was too easy.
- Lame pick-a-button-get-an-ending ending.
- Side-quests didn't seem to affect the ending.

It would have been cool to have had the ending be another "social boss battle". Since Adam is all buddy-buddy with Eliza, the ending could have been Eliza interviewing Adam about what happened. You would choose whether you advocate getting rid of all augmentation, regulated augmentation, or free enterprise augementation, and then Eliza would play devil's advocate as you attempt to make an arguement/spin the story of events to convince the public.

The story ending should have also been elaborated on. What happens between Adam and Megan? Adam spends the entire game looking for Megan, then when he finds her... nothing. They argue for like 30 seconds and that's it. There should have at least been something meaningful between the two. Perhaps they could also have a conversation with her trying to convince her that she was wrong to help with the research, though I guess that would depend upon what role she has in a potential sequel.

At the very least there should have been a Dragon Age: Origins style ending. Just a graphic with a sentence or two that address plot point, especially ones influenced by player decisions. For example, if you don't give Van Brugen a gun then have a picture of Van Brugen with text saying he was killed by Bell Tower soldiers during the raid on the Alice pods, and if the player gave him a gun then have a picture of him alive somewhere doing something saying that he was able to escape and is now doing such-and-such. If Adam can successfully convince people, during the interview with Eliza, that Hugh, or Serif, or Taggart is the bad guy then perhaps mention one of them being arrested/assassinated or whatever. Anything would be better than the current almost non-existent ending.

Also, the last mission should have been harder. It takes no skill at all to run away from the zombie-like soliders, nor does it take any skill to jump on a crate and mow them all down with an assult rifle. Hugh turning augmented people into zombies was kind of a cool plot twist, but it made for very lame and boring gameplay.

Choices:
+ The mulitple ways to complete an objective was done well.
- Story line choices didn't feel like they had any long-term consequences.
+ Being able to choose whether or not to replace your augmenation chip was cool.
- Choosing whether or not to upgrade your augentation was pretty much the only such choice the player faced, and thus it was made too obvious.

Having more choices, like whether to replace your augmentation chip, should have been in the game. Paying attention to details, like reading emails, eavesdropping on conversations, and side-quests would give you the information to make an informed choice. That would add another layer to the gameplay, as you would also be part dectective. Another example could be a situation where you come across two characters, both claiming that they are the "good" guy and other is the "bad" guy, and then you would have to decide who you would trust, if you would kill one, or even kill both, if you don't trust either of them.

These choices should affect the story meaningfully. For example, if you chose to get your chip replaced, then while talking to Megan Adam should go crazy, and while Megan would manage to reset his chip, she would not do so before being fatally wounded. Simply having Adam lose his augs for one boss battle was kinda cool, but made the choice feel pretty pointless since there weren't really any meaningful consequences. Also, sidequests should have more consequences as well. If you shoot up the police station in the beginning, or if you refuse to help out with defusing the bomb below the police station, then the police should fail to resolve the protest peacefully resulting in protesters breaking into the Serif building and being shot, severly hurting Serif Industries' public approval. The consequences could then have been worked into the story somehow, perhaps a slightly different ending.

shm0
30th Aug 2011, 05:14
It does kinda bother me that enemies can shoot at you forever, yet when you loot their gun you only get like 2 bullets?

The lack of a normal melee system was disappointing too... I don't agree with having to have energy to fight... Your Q should work ALL the time, and if you don't have energy it should only knock enemies down rather than neutralize.

Bosses were pretty dissapointing... I felt they should have involved the 4 pillars of gameplay even in boss fights, ie during the Barrett fight you could choose to talk to him, hide from him (stealth), use some kind of computer in the room to damage him (ie it was a freight room, so maybe use a crane to drop boxes on him), etc...

The reunion of Adam and Megan was very weak, she came off as a ***** at the end of the game, she just kind of moved on.. didn't seem happy to see you at all.

End game boss fight was really weak... No choice at all in how you fight her... the original Deus Ex did this much better.

Romeo
30th Aug 2011, 06:09
While I haven't had enough time to finish the game yet, so far the only thing I've noticed that's bugging me is the over-dependence on takedowns for XP, which is of course compounded by my hatred of perspective switching. Everything else seems fine to me though, I've managed to go through all of Detroit now without using cover (Stealth/Lethal on Deus Ex difficulty) so that was a bonus, albeit, I'm sure it made the battle against Barrett much harder than it needed to be...

psyder
30th Aug 2011, 06:40
What i didn't like:
- Bosses
- Useless upgrades, hacking should have been just one thing, not 3 and it goes on, some upgrades make the game way too easy
- Only 2 hubs
- AI, on Deus Ex difficulty i would have liked random patroling, no fixed routes
- Sound should play a more important role, every door, vent you open, every crate you move should made noise and at least on the last difficulty enemies should be suspicious
- Enemies should notice if someone is missing
- Cutscenes look pretty old, most times the game looks better and to be honest i'd rather have in game cutscenes than pre-rendered crap
- Didn't really mind the graphics since Adam's character model look great, but it would really benefit if it looked better. I guess that would set consoles on fire if you'd switch something else given the scale.
- If you save while wall hugging or using cover the load should remember that since i often found myself load a savegame and be out of cover and i'd be detected.
- More interactivity with objects, smash a lamp, a table, etc.
- More varied character models.
- Your choices and how you play should really affect your storyline, like in Alpha Protocol, you'd be going to a completely different place because you chose X instead of Y, same thing could go if you're playing it stealth or just running and gunning.
- More sidequests

Grizlap
30th Aug 2011, 07:40
+ The story, I found the story fine, yes maybe it wasn't drawn out well, but the basis of it was good(Even if sometimes I get bothered over the overuse ofthe Illuminati in consperisy games)
+ The cut scenes, yes the graphics were kinda band, BUT they were still nice, primarily because of the voice acting.
+ The Main Quest, I found this extremly satisfying.
- Last quest in Main quest chain, This requires an extra cinimatic, in which upon removing the lockdown, you see the crazies comming free, also making the crazies more like a horde then a pot shot game...
- Charecter apearence not being changeable... Yes this is small, but it's still a Negative, I think it would'a been nice to set it up so beating the game in specific ways(Like Pacifist, Foxiest of all the hounds, Legend, and dificulty dependant) Unlocking diffrent apearences you can change freely, Maybe even to look like Denton, Huh? huh?, and maybe beating it on easy, just lets you freely wear or remove the jacket, and other diffuclties allowing you to look like Barret, Sarif, ect.
- Side quests... ALL of them are OFF, from start to finish the only good one is "Paging Mr. Jenson" That side quest is good, why? all you do is go to your office -.-. Also, why not add a side quest before the main quest "Back in the saddle" to stop the LIMB riot? you have 15 minuets... a side quest being done before that, would make those 15 minuets seem more.. critical.
- The ending.. it was EXTREMELY anti-climatic.. especially the choice for distroying the last area... due to you dying, I'd rather have heard these quotes.. Jenson:"Pritchard... let me talk to Megan" Pritchard: "Why? is everything ok Jenson? you sound.. off" Jenson:"Pritchard... Just get me Meg!" Pritchard:"Alright Alright...." "Meg:"Adam... your not comming back... are you...?" Jenson:"No... I've made my choice... This island... has to go, and I won't be making it out, so I wanted to say g'bye". Not hear Eliza say... "Adam... it has truly been an honor..." The idea mention of a ending social boss fight w/ Eliza also seemed fun, rather then press a button, also a reunion video would have been nice!
- How the story was presented, It bothers me that I shoot up a police station, kill Zeke, let Sandy commit suicide, and after talking to the head of Human Front backstage for info, shooting him and ALL of his bodyguards and hearing in the end. "And although I didn't use my Augmentations for personal gain, and always coinsidered those around me..." I MEAN I MURDERED POLICE OFFICERS, DOCTORS... AND PEACE ADVOCATES. COME ON NOW.
- Final Boss, This isn;t because it's easy.... it's because it should have been done how Zeke was(Fist apearence) Start it in a "Social Boss Fight" and if I fail let me try and kill her, also make the robots and crazies come out more... like after killing the le support they come non-stop every so many seconds...
- Stores... Theirs 3 total per hub... that's not many stores... 2 deals and Limb, and one goes poof after a sequence..
- Poorly made XP sysem... Everyone stated "Theirs no moral system" well their is.. the XP system IS the moral sytem....
- Weapon Choice... it sucks.. idc, it is just horrible... Some may say it's "Satisfying" I think it's poor, You get a sniper, a shotgun, a rocketlauncher, a tranq rifle.. ect. I would like to have a tranq pistol... maybe a hunting bow(I prefer those over crossbows)
- Having to kill bosses, and being unable to TD them. Why not idk, make the Take Down a button mash sequence, allowing us Take Down fanatics a better way to kill bosses, Lethal or nonlethally, besides... the thought of using Adams blades, to shread the muscle looking augs on Namir, slitting his throat... and hacking him to ****... feels.... satisfing.


How to change these... Most easily by patching, others may require DLC... The ending, a Patch would suffice, Skins? maybe DLC so not everyone HAS to download it.

Grizlap
30th Aug 2011, 07:50
4) Praxis Points

Those are the biggest complaints that I have, but another small one is maybe unique to myself, and it involves the Praxis Upgrade Points. It is possible, albeit with strict requirements, to have all but 9-10 upgrade points by the end of the game. This means that my character had mastered every upgrade track except the Stealth Enhancements (the Track and Mark one, not Cloaking) and the Arm tree (in which I had only one upgrade--inventory.) That is...a bit silly. After all, if the game is about choice, how come my character can have his cake, and eat it, too? Now, that said, the requirements are pretty steep. (I can post them if people are interested...)

I got every augment on my nonlethal-Take Down Pure, playthrew, all you need to do is be sure to get the 2 person take down thing the second you can, and use it any chance you can... due to getting 50x2+40 xp per every 2 person non-leathal take down. add hacking, and other full exploration and full stealth, and I actually had 3 praxis points(this was after the purchase @ the last part, I had like, 30k in credits to spend LOL)

vintovka
30th Aug 2011, 08:01
Great game but room for improvement.

positives
(some of them)
+ choice for different game styles (stealth,social, assault) very well done
+ great story, the way it tied with modern issues and conspiracies, amazing
+ social battles was an amazing idea, but abit too easy
* instead of the game hinting you on "alpha, beta, omega" the players should figure out for themselves the persons mentality. Still a positive aspect though.
+ hacking system is a great idea
+ hubs felt really immersive, but too small
* there wasnt really too much to do, could of have more area with more sidequests. On the same note, day night cycle would of been amazing, at night more thugs come out to play, while in the day its more social.
+ the music was AMAZING

Negatives
----This first one is the most important to me----
- The game was WAY too easy and my first playthrough was on hardest.
* There is only one reason for this, the cover system.... I'm not saying it was a bad idea, it was a good idea just presented in a bad way. It made the game way less interesting because:
# you can see EVERYTHING behind cover
# getting headshots was super easy
# sneaking was extremely easy
# pulling into 3rd level made my immersion level drop (everytime i see Jenson outside his body, I lose the satisfaction of feeling like Im apart of the Deus world)
# took NO skill to beat the game this way.

Now here is how that can be fixed:
# stay in 1st person, but still have cover system, but make it realistic
# peaking around corners should be through jensons eyes, like you would peak in real life
# while peaking it can be easier to get spotted
# YOU HAVE TO RELY ON FOOTSTEPS TO HAVE A GOOD UNDERSTANDING OF WHERE YOUR ENEMY IS AT
*(It seems that everything is relied on visuals, I want a challenge, I want to use more than just my fingers and eyes to play, I want to use as much of my personal resources as possible for a real challenge)

on that not, I did not feel immersed MOST of the game because of 3rd person, you know how cool it would be to see a double take down in first person? Or using the typhoon or even the high drop perk in first person? That would make me feel like a badass, that will get me more mentaly involved with the word. Cutseens as well had the same issue, you should of made Half Life 2 style "story progression" In Half Life 2 I felt like I was Gordon, I was fighting the good fight, I was apart of Gordons life. I just wish I felt the same with Deus Ex and Jenson.

that kinda killed some of my experience, but here are some other negatives
- AI can be smarter ("oh my buddy was gaurding that area where did he go? nah its cool I wont check it out im just going to follow my path the devs set out for me")
* The AI could of handles situations alot better, and even possibly give them a "wold wide" path, as in they will walk around EVERYWHERE, up the stairs, check locked rooms, ride elevators, go on bathroom breaks.
- no melee weapons
- I should be able to take of my custom perks of my weapons
- Jenson seemed very low tech, what happened to the arm machine gun? Why do I lose energy faster than anything
- low texture resolution
- no day/night
- not very open world
- static objects
- no swimming
- no other environments other than urban or "lab like"

Dont Get me wrong I loved the Game but with all the technology I expected alot more. Maybe focus alil more on PC tech next time?

Thank you =)

Nokturnalex
30th Aug 2011, 10:21
I find it funny that I agree with 90%+ of the posts in this thread.

Dues ex apparently has a great gaming fanbase that understands how to improve a game.

Exia
30th Aug 2011, 11:25
Love the game, but as with you all here there are definite things to could change.

I personally think that the energy should recharge all the bars, not just one, but that is just a minor gripe, after all how many of us have sneaked behind a guard and just followed him until that one little bar is filled for a take down?

Make the lethal take downs silent as well, I voiced this in another thread, but the neck twisting lethal take down is a prime example of what should be a silent kill, after all how can that guy scream? Then again how is his head still on, now I think about it haha

What I loved about the first deus ex was picking up even simple things like a soda can and throwing it. We can only pick up boxes now :( Would have loved to have thrown a beer bottle to distract a guard and sneak by, instead of locating a middle to large box to throw!

I noticed as well in the leg aug, the last ability to land silently at "any height", wouldn't that be super cool to be able to drop from massive heights like the icarus landing system, but this allows for you to do so, without the whole lightning of zeus surrounding me effect and going straight into cloak to sneak by some guards?

Again as people have pointed out some rather useless augmentations, but I guess the question we have to put forward as suggestions is what would have been preferred or better?

Perhaps an Ear augmentation, where if you listen to certain conversations between the NPC's you could gain a password or door code if you "zone" in the enhanced hearing?

With the punch through walls ability, surely we could smash down the doors too? Not all of them I am thinking the same ones the Typhoon can rip open like apartment doors.

Maybe an augment where if we successfully sneak behind a mech or those big turrets to reprogram them there on the spot, rather than hunting down the actual controlling computer.

Another idea I thought of was with this social augment. Perhaps we could use civilians to distract guards/goons while you sneak by as an example, which would have made that augment more useful in game, rather than contextually in certain areas.

Instead of just the camouflage, perhaps another augment where electronic forms of detection, pick you up as some kind of static, where they cannot hone in on your character very well i.e. cameras and robots sensors I am thinking with this one. Feel free to expand on these ideas!

Another augment would be with the optics, perhaps a threat detection. I watch too many films and anime :D I am thinking something like when enemies are firing, that you get a red outline/highlight or something to indicate where they are, so in a way the enemy could play the stealth game against you, if they do not fire your "optic aug" will not register them as a threat for example.

Could they not have the tazer built into Jensen's arm? This in effect would take up a single battery meter per shot?

Maybe some sort of shield augment for the ones who do want to run and gun, because as things stand we cannot run and gun as easily as you would think, would also make the aiming mod far more viable and lucrative to that play style.

I myself love close combat in games like this, especially the stealth ones, played Splinter Cell conviction to death and played Batman Arkham too. I would have loved to have a 3 maybe 4 person take down move in this, but they could have balanced this to say for each additional person above 2, requires an additional bar of energy, hence warranting those extra bars!

Melee as an actual combat game play in this would have been so much better, not just as a take down. After all he has those blades and we seldom see them in use.

In-game cut scenes I think would have been much more immersive if it used the in-game engine, rather than the pre-rendered stuff. Look at resident evil 4 on the gamecube when that first game came out, Leon would sport the clothes/look in the cutscenes throughout!

This leads me onto a minor cosmetic changes. As already mentioned, if they did not want to focus on full customisation I can understand this, especially with the pre-renders. Without pre-renders that would ahve solved this little problem. Perhaps allow for people to play with the jacket on or off for example.

The weapons you would show on the character itself, although this is the tricky one, especially since you would not expect someone to roll from cover to cover with a rocket launcher, laser rifle and plasma on their back, perhaps just add a visual for the side arms ^_^ Always loved it in Uncharted. Oh I have this for PC as I grew up on PC gaming.

They should reward stealth kills no matter if it is lethal or non-lethal equally. Isn't it our choice of game style to play? They have effectively shuffled us like sheep with the non-lethal being the more experience lucrative. The advertising that they say we can play any way we like is a little wrong, since while yes we can, but you are not doing it "there way".

The ability to stuff bodies into lockers would have been nice, like in metal gear :) Or perhaps with the abundance of these cardboard boxes around, could we not shove the bodies into those? Would be funny to throw one of these hidden bodies and for the guards to be shocked when they find a companion "boxed" up.

The AI and patrol patterns would be better if they we're not on a set routine path.

The one thing mentioned in the dev's interviews before release was how they had a great customisation in the game for players to experiment with ... I have seen very little of this to be honest, we have a few things to customise granted, but they are fairly limited in my opinion.

How come we don't get remote mines so I can cause chaos while hidden away!

One other final thing I would have liked to change is why can't the sniper rifle be equipped with a silencer!

Sorry for the overly huge post!

Cult Icon
30th Aug 2011, 11:39
Have a stats option on media log, like kills, hacks, takedowns etc!

DavidGilding
30th Aug 2011, 11:50
New game plus definitely. The kind that you see in prototype so that people have the choice to choose it or not.

jokerevo
30th Aug 2011, 11:51
The A.I desperately needs an upgrade.

90% of encounters in DE:HR consist of:

take cover
pop out
shoot
take cover
regen
pop out
shoot

The A.I is not aggressive enough. It's actually quite hard to die when you can see through walls and the A.I has no clue how to deal with you if you're hiding behind a wall lmao.

*Allow AI to open with grenade attacks.
*I should not be able to one punch people wearing armored helmets lol!
*More variety of mobs needed....attack dogs....etc....
*Some mobs should be immune to certain takedowns to force player to adopt different tactics.
*In MGS, the father of the stealth game, if an alarm was tripped...reinforcements were called...this must happen in DE.
*In high security installations why the heck is gas not used and why do these guards not have gas masks lol?
*for those airduct lovers, allow guards to release airduct attack bots...!
*A dead body that has been found should NEVER have an alarm cooldown period.

In the T-medical finale where a dozen guards enter the room behind you, 2 gas grenades was all it took to clear this stage. They don't even run away!! :/

Give me a tactical reason to drop mines, give me a reason to take those gas/emp/flashbang immunity augs, give me a reason to close that door behind me. I completed an entire playthrough without ever thinking: wow I really need this aug.

This is the real reason why we have silly energy bars, it's because the devs know we would be massively overpowered if they regenned to full! Because the A.I is outgunned. I see this game has many 9 and 10's but in all honesty it's an 8 at best as it brings nothing new to the table. It's been done before albeit executed very well. It's just a real shame the combat is so bland and predictable.


Just like Bioshock failed to improve on System Shock, DE:HR is a beautiful clone of DE which fails to take the gameplay to the next level by failing to innovate on it's original ideas.

VekErro
30th Aug 2011, 14:52
I agree what a lot of what's been said here. This game is great but it feels like at some point they stopped concentrating on the gameplay and immersion and just tried to make the game as balanced as possible.

Ammo - I know that ammo is limited so that run-and-gun playthroughs aren't to easy, but it just doesn't make sense. A gang can afford to give every member a gun, and can even buy a missile launcher, but they decide to only give each member two bullets for their gun? picking up ammo is a constant thing in the game, so I'm constantly reminded of this break in immersion. I mean I break into the police stations weapon storage and there are 4 shotguns on a rack and about 8 shotgun shells in total. What do the police do in an emergency? Give each guy a shotgun and 2 shells and say "make 'em count"?

Hacking - Hacking is great, but the exp bonus means that I've never even used a password or code. It seems odd that I get rewarded more for hacking than for finding some clever way to get the code.

Saves - The saves need to be split up into different playthroughs. Seems strange no-one thought of this in a game the was made for multiple playthroughs.

Energy/augmentation - So you have advanced, military grade augments through your whole body. You are a super human. You enter the police station and stab the first cop you see. Why? Because your evil. The next cop is 20 feet away, drawing his gun. You easily cover that distance in an instant on your advanced legs and when you get to him you... do nothing. You stand there while he shoots you in the face, because you didn't eat a candy bar. Seriously who's idea was it to not have a standard melee attack? Or to tie the take-downs into the energy system? I'm no Bruce Lee but last time I checked a sleeper hold uses less energy than becoming invisible or firing bullets out of my arms :/

Grimesy
30th Aug 2011, 15:03
First off, I have to say, it is the best shooterish game I've played in about 10 years, DX being my no 1, this is definitly my no 2... Finished it in 30 gameplay hours distibuted in just under 45 realtime hours (I do have to sleep sometimes , now do I...)

That said, just three mayor points wrong imho:

1: as everybody is saying, bosses bosses bosses, just all out combat, no posibility to hack a robot, turret or just to persuade them that they are on the wrong side and they should help you...

2: In the beginning, I didn't have the heavy lift aug and I found a wooden crate blocking my way. Since I didn't have a knife, baton or crowbar, I had to SHOOT it to brake it, what a waste of ammo... I WANT CARTERS POCKETKNIFE INGAME!!!

3: endgame choices, DX told you to do this for him or that for them, you actually had to do something very different for everyone, instead of just choosing the right button...

But, whatever..., congrats on a job well done, I'm proud of you guys/gals at EM!

sea
30th Aug 2011, 15:35
A few points that come to mind:

1) The first Deus Ex had great character development because it required you to make choices. Augmentations weren't just fairly rare, they required some effort to find, and on top of that, for each one you had to make a decision on which one to keep in each "slot" on your character. There weren't many definite "stealth augments" or "fighter augments" either - the vast majority could be applicable to anyone, i.e. silent running can be useful for violent ambushes, not just stealthy types. In Human Revolution, augmentations are cheap - you'll have everything you ever need by halfway through the game, and you never really need to make a definite choice about how to play, in a way that is reinforced by your character-building. I can choose to play stealthy and non-lethal, yes, and I might pick up cloaking instead of recoil compensation, but that decision matters only early on, as I'll have more than enough points by Hengsha to upgrade any secondary skills I might want. Augmentations need to have definite trade-offs in order to make one's character feel unique, and to bring the RPG mechanics to the forefront, rather than relegating them to the player's own fantasy. RPGs should be about defining a character's strengths and weaknesses via mechanics, not about taking a non-linear path towards a fixed character end state.

2) Reduce the XP gains from stealth. I know stealth is supposed to be harder and you're supposed to receive bigger gains to compensate for avoiding enemies rather than killing them, but stealth takedowns give so much bonus XP, combined with the ghost bonuses, that by the end of the game stealthy characters will have even more XP than they know what to do with, and effectively they end up as jack-of-all-trades characters who just happen to sneak around, rather than ones with definite strengths and weaknesses.

3) Bring back items that give augmentation abilities. This ties in a bit with the points above, as well. Portable rebreathers, thermoptic camo, etc. are all good because they introduce additional resource management for characters who don't have certain augs, and add a risk/reward element to carry around additional items (i.e. a bulletproof vest vs. more ammo or guns). Fairly simple, and I'm not sure why this was removed from the game, because it would provide more options for players, and options are never bad. This is an obvious trap Invisible War fell into ("we have to eliminate redundancies!") so it's surprising it's still here considering Eidos apparently studied that game's failures so intently.

4) Bring back lockpicking. The simple fact is that hacking is severely overpowered, since it doesn't just let you get into computers, it also lets you render security cameras, robots and turrets ineffective, it lets you disable laser grids and alarms, and it also allows you to break into doors. It's single-handedly the most useful skill and, unless you have the preorder DLCs, you can't even bypass hacking in many situations (why they removed the AUDs for DLC purposes, I'll never know - they're such obvious and essential items, it's like saying "you can't use energy-restoring items unless you get the DLC"). Lockpicking might be "low-tech" but it's still feasible for it to exist, especially in most residential areas, safes and lockers, etc. - obviously hacking makes more sense in high-tech military bases and labs. More importantly, though, lockpicking splits up the usefulness of hacking, effectively keeping it in line and from being too overpowered. Yes, there are other ways to balance this, such as providing more alternatives to hacking... but lockpicking is the most obvious one and it fits in line with the first Deus Ex, so I'll take it.

5) Melee weapons need to come back. It's not even for the reasons you think - I can do without hitting people over the head with tire irons. No, what I really want melee weapons for is for destroying environmental obstacles - smashing through windows and boarded-up doors, or, with more powerful ones and the right augmentations, breaking down doors rather than needing to waste a precious grenade (I wouldn't mind as much if grenades were more available in Human Revolution, or if there were more alternatives to hacking). The fact is that melee weapons filled a very specific utility role in addition to a combat role, and the lack of that utility is felt very much.

6) Bring back skills. Yes, I know, "numbers are confusing", "augments can do the same thing", etc. I'd argue skills are a good thing for two reasons. First, from a verisimilitude perspective, I'd say that having augmentations and the skills to use them are two very different things, not to mention that augmentations shouldn't be able to automatically make you smarter, improve your reflexes, etc. when you yourself are a bumbling incompetent; there has to be an upper limit to what augmentations can do when a person is incapable of something. I know part of this is a response to "JC Denton is a government agent but can't even fire a gun", but considering players had the choice in defining JC's abilities, I think this is an invalid argument - if you couldn't fire a gun, it was because you made JC that way! From a gameplay perspective, however, it provides more combinations and build types for characters, and different ways to build them. Certain characters might be more reliant on skills, others might be more reliant on augmentations, and finding augmentation canisters vs. getting XP bonuses would favour different types as well (similar to how weapon mods are useful for combat characters, while augmentations are useful for exploration-driven types). While it's not one of those things that's 100% necessary, it adds a lot of nuance to character growth and development. Yes, I know this is a mass-market game, and that means publishing things that it can't be more complicated... but if your target audience is so incompetent that a tutorial can't effectively teach it the difference between skills and augs, then I'd say you need to draw the line and stop making games for people with IQs under room temperature.

7) While I enjoyed the augmentation debate in Human Revolution, it felt overly simplified, with the two core arguments being "we can make ourselves better!" vs. the good old appeal to nature fallacy. There needed to be more nuance, and while the game did touch upon a few additional ideas in side-quests (the rich/poor divide, augmentation addiction), it still didn't go into the detail I would have liked, and generally it feels like the writer (or design team) wasn't able to figure out any real problems with augmentation beside the most obvious ones. What's more, the philosophical backing to many of the characters and organisations has been stripped away - Deus Ex was compelling because it effectively took a large number of historically-relevant, defining political, social and philosophical ideas, embodied them in characters, and let them spar with one another for the player to watch. Human Revolution has characters who are better as people, granted, but I still think their ideas felt underdeveloped and more emotional/impulsive than logical, even the supposedly super-intelligent villain.

8) Cut it out with the dramatic appeals to emotion. I'm serious. If you can't tell me that augmentations are bad without *spoilers* turning everyone into mindless zombie killing machines, or without showing Cute Naked Japanese Schoolgirls being tortured horribly *end spoilers* then you have a problem. Give me more than "these are bad people and this is bad" to chew on.

9) No more forced boss fights. Please. If they must be in the game, then at least provide a way to bypass them - the conversations in the game are so great, that it feels like a major missed opportunity to not be able to talk with the various bosses and get them to step down that way, and it also really cuts into their character development. Also, stop changing the rules of the game to turn them into super-powered monsters. Jensen can't take 500 bullets to the head, so why can these guys?

10) Stop taking my control away to turn Cutscene Jensen into a bumbling, arrogant, angry, easily-deceived idiot. I get to define Jensen, why are you suddenly forcing me to do stupid things? You're smart developers, you shouldn't have to suddenly render my character a moron to bring the story forward. This is called railroading, kids, and it's a bad thing. Don't do it.

meselfshimself
30th Aug 2011, 16:08
1) No more boss fights! they are outdated, overly gamey and ill-suited to Deux Ex in general.

2) Humour, I miss playing the prankser as I could with JC back in DE 1, there was all sorts of crazy stuff you could do to wind up the NPC's and the NPC's dialogue itself was funnier, remember the singing hobo in Battery Park?

3) More object interation,
In DE:HE, I find that i cant pick up, throw or destroy nearly as much as could in the first game.

4) Hacking is over done, there is too much of it in the year 2027, what happened to all lock picking 30 years later in 2057?

Ratiocinative
30th Aug 2011, 16:16
What about some kind of blur/shroud that hides enemies that are out of line of sight or in the background while you are using the cover system to hide behind cover? It could be sort of like the shroud of war that many RTS games have. Whenever you peak out of cover the shroud/blur would disappear and whenever you re-enter cover the enemies would either disappear or appear frozen in their last known position. This, combined with a more aggressive AI that moves around more/advances on you more often, could drastically increase the skill required to beat the game on higher difficulties. This would also make the tracker augmentations much more useful, as it could track enemies in shroud and even potentially reveal enemies even when they are within the blur/shroud, which also would increase the challenge for stealth style players. Of course, it could be optional just like half the other features in the game (lol).

Shralla
30th Aug 2011, 18:00
Put the next game on a new, more scalable, engine, allowing people with powerful PCs to take full advantage of that fact, including things like dynamic shadows for ceiling fans and things like that. Make EVERYTHING a physics object. I get why they did what they did, but I really wish I could pick up and throw all those pizza boxes around.

JD313
30th Aug 2011, 18:42
First off, let me say that I thoroughly enjoyed DX:HR. I haven’t found myself spending an entire weekend glued to the TV screen on a game for quite some time. That said, the game does have some flaws, and there is room for substantial improvement, which, if implemented in a sequel, could take the next installment from a fantastic game, to a shoe-in for GOTY.

The majority of my suggestions have already been made by other posters, which is good that there is a pretty unanimous consensus forming as to how the game can be improved. This only increases the chance that the devs will heed our advice. My suggestions below generally go toward the issue of central gameplay pillars, rather than discussing obvious improvements that come with almost every sequel (more weapons, new upgrades, bigger HUBs, etc.).

More Interaction with the Environment/Objects. The level of interaction with the environment and objects in DX:HR was actually a step down from the original DX. Given that DX is now over ten years old, this is pretty unacceptable. A DX:HR sequel should include the following:

• Destructible objects (glasses, TV’s, computers, boxes, etc.);

• Ability to turn lights on/off and/or cut power – this could go hand-in-hand with reinserting the stealth option to hide in the dark, as discussed below; and

• Ability to pick up more objects/give smaller objects physics (glasses, buckets, cans, bottles, trash bags, etc.).

Better Immersion. While I definitely felt immersed in the games environments, there is always room for improvement. Here are a few suggestions:

• Show Jensen’s hands interacting with environment. Some good examples would be picking up and dragging bodies, pushing the elevator button, climbing up a ledge or over a fence, throwing objects, etc. While you could see Jensen’s hands for certain actions (i.e. sprinting), with other actions (i.e. moving bodies) it looked like Jensen was using the “force.” Showing the players hands interact with the environment and objects is becoming a standard for FPS now, and would be especially cool in DX given Jensen’s awesome robotic limbs.

• Create more “life” in the city HUBs. Include cars driving through the streets, civilians that aren’t just static but that move around and have a routine (think Oblivion), better civilian AI when attacked or threatened (i.e. they run away and alert the police if nearby), less repetitive radio and TV segments, etc. All of these things make the cities feel more real and alive and add to the immersion of the game.

Better Graphics/Facial Animations. While I thought the environments looked great, the character models and animations were a little stiff, and not on par with other games that are coming out along side DX:HR. With games like L.A. Noire and Rage really pushing the graphical capability of the 360 and PS3, the sequel for DX:HR needs to step up its game.

Include New Game +. The ability to start a new game with all your augs, weapons and upgrades from your previous play-through is an obvious fit for a game with this much replayability.

Include Alternative Ways to Approach Boss Fights. Given the games emphasis on different play styles, there needs to be the option to:

• Talk your way out of a boss fight via social skills; and/or

• Hack robot bosses to self-destruct, terminate, etc.

Improved Stealth System

• Reinsert the Light/Dark system from the original DX. By allowing you to hide in the dark areas/shadows in addition to behind cover, this adds a new dimension to the stealth game play. This could also include the option to turn on/off lights, or even cut power to certain buildings (more interaction with the environment) and allows for some cool new night vision augs.

• Include ability to hang off ledges. This is self-explanatory.

Improved Combat System

• Include silent, lethal take downs (possibly as an aug upgrade).

• Include aug/ability to bust open doors. This would allow for a more action-oriented alternative to hacking or finding a code for those with a “shoot first ask questions later” type of play style.

Ability to Customize Jensen’s Look. One of the things that really liked about Assassin’s Creed II over the original is that they gave you the option to customize your look via new clothes and color schemes. While Jensen is already one of the most bad@$$-looking characters to grace a video game in a long time, customization is always a plus, and I think a DX sequel could benefit from such an option.

That is everything that I can think of off the top of my head. Like I said, if Eidos fits even most of these things into a new sequel with a compelling story and keeps the same art direction and killer sound track, the next DX will be a lock for GOTY.

anunnaki
30th Aug 2011, 19:52
Keep in mind not one person is responsible for the short comings of the game. Some parts of the game like the music of michael mccann were perfect. I give him full credit for making the game anything at all, what I see is poor production in particular areas. In my augmented edition, I have the art book which has drawings of harvesters which didn't even appear in the game. They probably already had it designed and ready to go but due to a limit on space and poor choice in what to sacrifice they left it out. Some of the things mentioned here are probably on a hard drive somewere never to be used. something I said about the making of DVD a while back is if the game didn't turn out good it would be an hour of them butchering perhaps the greatest game in human history. I like the game at points and the direction was good but so much just didn't work, so many obvious things they seem to just ignore for no good reason. With that being said,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNC8cW-8qCY

It's sad because it is a good game, but with having to live up to such a name it's just so hard to make it work after such a long time. The smallest problems grow so easily because we love the old methods so much, but what upset me the most is not using quotes at the end of the game or the Deus Ex symbol, it just didn't feel right.

dudener
30th Aug 2011, 20:08
my 2 cents:

-more weapons/melee weapons/weapon costumization/ammo types (emp,explosive shotgun shells, and so on)

-bring back the hit-zones from DE1 where you had to heal your leg with a medkit or you would limp around

-i would also love to see similar exp-system from DE1 again, your explanation why experience activates augs was conclusive. still i think stuff like hacking and shooting should be a "learning"-thing and augs get implented by surgery

-more and better augs
ideas would be:
<more melee augs
<mindcontrol augs for robots (and humans? mwahahahahahahahahah)
<transformer augs to get riflearm like barret or stuff like that
<telekinesis augs
<wallrunning augs

-overall a more detailed inventory/menu like viewing your body parts condition, heart rate. its not necessary for gameplay but it puts in some athmosphere imho :)

-abilty to lay down and crawl

-more shops; are there only weapon dealers in the future?! give us candy shops for energybars, high-tech dealers with superexpensive contraband of prototypes and computerstores for your "software" demands

-better energy management and recharge more than one battery. besides why do non lethal takedowns consume energy?!
my idea for balance would be: non-lethal takedowns dont consume energy but people can wake up again.

-knocking on wall like in metal gear so you can lure enemys around the corner

thats all for now
overall the game is just awesome already as it is and i would like to appreciate you guys for your work and the love you put in, its not common these days. looking forward for dlc :)

Dr_Bob
30th Aug 2011, 22:30
Improvements:

I think the takedowns are fine as they are, but I think the animations should be contextual, taking into account the following:

• Alert state
• Position, i.e. lying down, sitting or standing
• Movement, i.e. patrolling, walking or running

There are already some contextual animations, but they only represent what direction your target is facing.

I think there should be an option for people to turn off toggle crouch and aim. I personally like having these on toggle because it's one less key/button to hold, but that's just me.

Sometimes it felt like there were too many corridor-type areas in the game. I want more levels like the Belltower Dockyard, which was a fantastic level and also gave off many classic Deus Ex vibes because of how open it was.

Bossfights. I didn't mind them because I always made sure I was well-equipped but, ultimately, forcing bossfights is not really what Deus Ex is about. I believe you should keep the bossfights, but allow players to avoid them completely through ingenuity.

While I'm OK with cutscenes, sometimes I thought "I wouldn't act like this in this situation" e.g. the cutscene in Zhao's penthouse where Adam just stands there while she just yammers. I'm not sure how I'd personally fix this because removing cutscenes altogether would be overkill and they are necessary to make the narrative follow a particular path.

Positives:

The hacking game was fantastic and I would really like to see a mobile version of it hit the respective App Stores for each major mobile OS (iOS, Android and W7).

I love the cover system. I loved it in Rainbow Six Vegas 2 and I love it here. My only qualm would be that sometimes when you leave cover, you are placed quite a distance away from the cover position which usually results in you being spotted.

The augmentations were outstanding and were a showcase of how many various way you can play the game. I personally invested in max inventory space, the Icarus Landing System, jump enhancement and hacking to get the most out of the game.

The cast of characters were great and there were many contrasts, discrete and not-so-discrete, between them. David Sarif is probably my favourite non-player character in the game.

The city hubs were majestic and, because you only had two, it was easier to distinguish and contrast the two different parts of the world and their attitudes.

The social bossfights were really, really tense but I couldn't help but notice that they may have been too easy, even without the social enhancer. The only fight I thought I was struggling with was the Sarif one.

Adam Jensen is a really well-written character and I hope we get to see more of him.

Kynaeus
31st Aug 2011, 00:12
Hacking security bots. Why did I waste my points on this? I finally got it and hacked a bot, sent it patrolling to fight enemies and it starts shooting at some dude, he and everyone else become hostile and converge on my position even though I'm well away from the fight.

Another time I was accidentally spotted while my friendly bot was patrolling, as soon as I was spotted it became alarmed along with everyone else so I can only assume it would have started to shoot at me, even though I set it to fight enemies.

That just plain doesn't make sense.

Urahara
31st Aug 2011, 00:41
10) Stop taking my control away to turn Cutscene Jensen into a bumbling, arrogant, angry, easily-deceived idiot. I get to define Jensen, why are you suddenly forcing me to do stupid things? You're smart developers, you shouldn't have to suddenly render my character a moron to bring the story forward. This is called railroading, kids, and it's a bad thing. Don't do it.

What he said. I wanted to blow Dragon Lady away with my shotgun, instead she got to feel Adam up and run away!.

leslol
31st Aug 2011, 02:21
My biggest beef is ammo. More specifically, arrows.

I found a total of 2 crossbows in the game (near the start and end, one being a quest item) and no more than 10 arrows. I figured that was fine as it allows you to pull the arrows out from the bodies, but they snap every time. A shame really, as when I finally got to use the crossbow it was a lot of fun.

I guess the same thing applies to the rocket launcher and grenade launcher (which i never actually found, only ammo). Not that I ever used the launchers, since most of the game is in enclosed areas and has very few robots (which are easily dispatched with emp) using them would hinder you more than anything.

edit: Forgot to agree with a previous suggestion of a medium ranged non-lethal weapon. A tranq pistol would be great.

Draco856
31st Aug 2011, 03:40
My only gripe that I would like to see changed is the relationship between Megan Reed and Adam. When I found her again I was left with more questions then answers with no way to figure them out. I would have liked a full conversation with her before the end, because it seems Namir's saying came true and I was left wondering how that happened. When the cut-scene begins, Megans all sweet and everything expecting the man who kidnapped her to just walk into her bedroom, I just don't get it, what happened to her in those 6 months of being a captive? Did she just join up the the people who murdered most of the lab, kidnapped her and her team, turned her ex-boyfriend into an aug or what? All I want is some closure to that line of thinking and I'll be happy.

Namir's last words: "You've lost her Jensen, men like us never get to keep the things we love"

Iron and Copper
31st Aug 2011, 09:08
Where is the blood? They said there would be blood.
Like this ¬
..............V

http://imageshack.us/f/341/37079234.jpg/

I was promised blood and I'm not getting any, some splatter on the wall if they are close enough but no bleeding out on the floor like this. What gives, love that in a patch. This game needs that grit

eot
31st Aug 2011, 10:20
Consumables
That is something I feel this game lacks. For some of them I can see why they were omitted; the original was more punishing in terms of what you couldn't do unless you had specific augs / skills and consumables such as rebreathers, ballistic armor, thermoptic camo etc. were things you could use to overcome the disadvantages of your character build. In DX:HR the base level of character proficiency is much higher so there are less things you can't do.

A consumable I do think they should've included though is multitools (and maybe lockpicks). In DX these items were key to opening up certain areas or stashes, but they were also very limited in quantity. There were problems with that, it encouraged the player to save before using them to see if it was worth spending those tools. DX:HR has the opposite problem where there is never a downside to hacking anything and the fact that you can hack keypads means that finding keycodes rarely matters. In DX finding keycodes was a big deal because it meant you saved multitools. Same thing with nanokeys. I also just liked being able to lock and unlock doors, it was another simulation aspect of the game. Also, entering a password should give you more XP than hacking the terminal, right now it gives you zero XP so there's no reason to not hack terminals you know the password for, it's silly.

Another consequence of the things I mentioned above is that you can quite often go back and explore all the alternative paths you could've taken, because they're not limited by character skills nearly as much as in the first game. There are some specific paths like gas filled rooms and breakable walls, but they cater to certain augs too specifically. In DX there were often underground passages filled with gas, boobytraps, turrets etc. Your ability to navigate those obstacles was not binary, you could spend precious items like EMP grenades or multitools to disable some security. In DX there was a cost associated with most paths (often also rewards) and that's something I think DX:HR is missing. There are many sewer paths into compounds, but they typically only involve some stealth and the challenge is purely in finding the path.

stethnorun
31st Aug 2011, 10:49
Two words: Boss battles. As a concept, they don't fit in Deus Ex (the "bosses" of previous games where NOTHING like this). And in execution, even if we MUST have boss battles, they were handled very poorly, negating every character build except run-and-gun. It was like having a 5-star dinner, with the occasional pubic hair getting caught in your throat.

Iron and Copper
31st Aug 2011, 12:41
Remove the ridiculously ugly frag indicator! It makes zero sense, it's not an aug, it's not in keeping with the cyberpunk style, it's not in keeping with the orange and black readouts and computer displays. It just derps the place up.

I want books, I haven't gotten that far so hopefully they are coming somewhere, but with all the classical references and the piles of books stacked around the place, I'd love a separate window style when you read one other then the ebook style, classical references maybe a few chapters from the legend of Icarus and Deadalus could be collated on your journey.

Stop repeating that painting! It's a Rembrandt, they don't come cheap but every Tom Dick and Harry has one, every safe is hidden behind one in Detroit. I GET IT!!

Like I said I haven't left Detroit yet but if I was to hazard a guess, Jensen is patient X, I hope not because it was the first thing I thought after reading the first ebook in the first room. Further compounded by being repeatedly derped over the head with similar references. I hope I am wrong but if not I hope it's not a big crux of the story, be a bit of a fizzled firework. Not something that can be fixed now but I would like to see more ambiguity in the hints and references, I've said before about the 0451 reference, shouldn't have just handed it to you straight away. See if the player guessed it and if not he'd tell you or you could ask him.

I want the code/password prompts gone on higher difficulties, it means you don't actually have to read and digest the information around the code, just pick it up and press tab and esc and hey presto once you find the right panel it does it appears. Even if you have no idea why, there should be indicators of who's desk or who's door it is and that way the player has to make the associations after they've actually read the pocket secretary.

Mjesko
31st Aug 2011, 13:08
As mentioned in this thread http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=120933 triggering an alarm should have consequences:

- Many heavy armed guards patrol through the level
- Security doors limit the movement of the character until they are destroyed
- The alert level remains at red until the end of the mission

I think the radar range should be reduced from 25 m to 15 m and from 50 m to 30 m to balance the radar and to make the upgrade more powerful. The dermal armor should increase the damage reduction by 25 %, 50 % and 75 % as long it is ACTIVE.

Wedgybaby
31st Aug 2011, 14:05
More Augs - more balenced Boss battles - and finally put the CG cut scenes back into the game that were taken out from the trailers!! was really looking forward to seeing them!!

Finally, make the combat rifle not loose sound after a few upgrades

Iron and Copper
31st Aug 2011, 14:10
As mentioned in this thread http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=120933 triggering an alarm should have consequences:

- Many heavy armed guards patrol through the level
- Security doors limit the movement of the character until they are destroyed
- The alert level remains at red until the end of the mission

I think the radar range should be reduced from 25 m to 15 m and from 50 m to 30 m to balance the radar and to make the upgrade more powerful. The dermal armor should increase the damage reduction by 25 %, 50 % and 75 % as long it is ACTIVE.

Id like the radar gone all together, optional at least, you can buy an upgrade that issues proper sonar or something but it would have to be activated and drain power. I already think the smart vision is overpowered, in the first game it took three upgrades for something like that, you started out with infra-red and moved up. What would you possibly want with radar upgrades or even the stealth assist upgrades when you can just SEE everything!

Renegen
31st Aug 2011, 15:24
Hacking security bots. Why did I waste my points on this? I finally got it and hacked a bot, sent it patrolling to fight enemies and it starts shooting at some dude, he and everyone else become hostile and converge on my position even though I'm well away from the fight.

Another time I was accidentally spotted while my friendly bot was patrolling, as soon as I was spotted it became alarmed along with everyone else so I can only assume it would have started to shoot at me, even though I set it to fight enemies.

That just plain doesn't make sense.

It's an UI fail. Once you hack a robot to be on your side, it stays on your side forever. But if it becomes alarmed, its color in the radar changes to orange or red as if he was hostile to you, except he isn't.

- There were some problems I found with robots. Sometimes I'd sneak and the robot would become alarmed from very far away.

- Also the physics could be better. A pistol can destroy a weak wall? Also the way wall explosions work is very bad, try placng a mine on an adjacent wall, huge explosion but the weak wall is still there! Make the physics like in Deus Ex.

RedLED
31st Aug 2011, 15:30
*In MGS, the father of the stealth game, if an alarm was tripped...reinforcements were called...this must happen in DE.
I agree, and they should get you no XP.


*In high security installations why the heck is gas not used and why do these guards not have gas masks lol?
Agree.


*for those airduct lovers, allow guards to release airduct attack bots...!
I agree again. At least a grenade would be cool.
There's a lot to pick up from MGS3 and MGS4 (MGS3 being my favorite MGS).


*A dead body that has been found should NEVER have an alarm cooldown period.That's rigth.


Give me a tactical reason to drop mines, give me a reason to take those gas/emp/flashbang immunity augs, give me a reason to close that door behind me.
Agree

Also :
* give us a reason not to shoot (guard finding bullets if you don't pick them up).

* no blindly hack everything instead of searching for the code somewhere. Going through with the door with a code should grant you XP bonus (because it's stealthier). Hacking should only give you money. I also was hoping for personal journals while hacking.
* could have been fine to have the same aug spydrone as JC Denton
* guards should wake up by themselves
* dogs, aug dogs
* microphone security systems
* a matrix hub anyone ?

Dresden
31st Aug 2011, 16:08
Thought of some more:

(Sequel or DLC) - Bring back the Aggressive Defensive System. It's an aug that shoots out a laser at incoming projectiles before they can get to you. Then give more guards grenades and explosive weapons so that it's useful.

(Sequel) - List weapon stats as numbers, not bars. It's really confusing when two weapons like the 10mm and revolver have similar damage bars, but also have armor piercing and explosive rounds. Which one ends up more powerful? I have no idea.

(Patch) - More ammo for the Crossbow. This MUST be patched. No buts about it. The weapon has like 20 arrows in the whole game.

(DLC) - Release the Pre-Order DLC for everyone. I would gladly pay a small price for these. Maybe $5-$8. Just leave the +10k credits out. I'm also a bit miffed that we were told that the Tracer Tong sidequest was cut from the game but revived for DLC...yet we still see Tracer Tong in one of the cutscenes in the full game regardless of DLC? Uh huh...

P4NCH0theD0G
31st Aug 2011, 16:43
Energy Siphon Aug: Gain small amounts of Energy from Hacking Computers, Doors, Panels or "energy milking" dead enemies.
Makes you earn the energy you need to jump-start regeneration for an energy bar.

or

Energy Siphon Tool: Portable, reusable tool that can drain small amounts of energy from nearby electrical devices (computers, cameras, turrets, etc.) Warning: Resulting Energy Fluctuations will attract guards to investigate.
Comes with a very low recharge rate for consecutive uses (45-60 sec.) and alarmed guards; has to be carried in inventory; makes you earn the energy to jump-start regeneration.

Come on. You should be able to earn enough energy to jump-start regeneration by performing certain actions. It makes sense. It encourages playing the game. It is immensely gratifying.

You can all start to agree with me, now.

Frraksurred
31st Aug 2011, 17:13
Wow, more descension in this thread then I anticipated.

First off, I thoroughly enjoyed the game. For a day one game to be this smooth and bug-free is delightful. I am playing on the PC, so my suggestion will relate to that platform.

GRAPHICS

Skybox: This must be an easter egg from Deus Ex, because it looks like a direct port. ;)
Cutscenes: There is some gorgeous work here that gets almost completely lost due to excessive compression. I imagine this was to fit everything on a single disk. Is there any way we could get an optional download of higher quality 1080p replacements?
Textures: Not as high on my list, but some of them are pretty low-res. This is noticeable particularly on NPC's that you have side quests through. Like the above request, an optional "HD Package" similar to what Crysis 2 and Dragon Age 2 did would be wonderful. The tessellation on Jensen looks awesome however, thank you.


CONTROLS

NUM_PAD: As a lefty, most ports give me a ton to complain about here. DX:HR did not, thank you. The only button I found that was not bindable was the NUM_ENTER key. This is my jump button, could we patch this to be mappable please?


GAMEPLAY

Map: I found myself wishing I could mark (with notation) areas of interest on the map numerous times, particularly in Heng Sha where it's easy to get lost and disoriented.
Tutorials: These were a welcome edition, but some of them, namely the hacking tut, needed better explanation seeing it was a brand new mechanic. Other items, such as needing to "use" certain unhighlighted items like the breifcases in the side quests to mark weapons cache and evidence, were not explained at all. I had to find these things out by accident after some frustration.


DLC

We wants it! Lots of it! Seriously, you've created quite a world and story here. The more of it you give us, the more excited we'll get! There are so many areas that could be expounded on. I'd really like to experience more background between Jensen and Megan; explore one of the surrounding ships near the ocean base or learn more about the various bosses (who the heck are they, why did they become what they are?) particularly Yelena whom we hear absolutely nothing about.
Pre-Order Items: If I'd of known there was not going to be a silenced sniper rifle offered in the game, I'd of pre-ordered two copies just to get all the bonuses, lol. Could we release this content in some fashion soon?

That's all I can think off at the moment. That is a tiny list compared to what most new games, especially ports to PC, get from me. The game over-all is already exceptional, these are merely refinements that would polish it further. Thanks for a great game and considering our input. :wave:

Bigtattoo
31st Aug 2011, 17:50
Several if not all of the ahead points have likely been mentioned, but there were many issues with this game for me:

Rechargable batteries: Or at least MUCH more power bars. Was almost constantly left with 1 battery which discourages use of augs. Id have used cloak far more if I had either option. Instead I kept use to an absolute minimum.

More Augs, with far greater variety.

Lose the boss fights. Awful, all three.

More hubs

More sidequests. The ones that were in always felt too short, with the excpetion of one or two

As with above poster: an option to mark on a map.

Balance of weaponry. Was very happy with the 10mm pistol- too happy, I felt it was overpowered once all extras were added. Never stopped me from using it, but even at the endgame it was often my first weapon out

Sniper rifle- waste of space, especially if you have the pistol. I usually keep a sniper rifle handy in most games, this one is way too much space to justify

PEPS- does anyone actually use this? Utterly useless/ unnecessary inclusion.

The rest were well balanced- loved the shotgun

While I enjoyed the hacking on the whole, I agree with others that if Ive taken the time to find a pocket secretary or code elsewhere, I still ended up hacking for the exp points. There needs to be some form of balancing to allow other option equal precedence

Frraksurred
31st Aug 2011, 18:21
Rechargable batteries: Or at least MUCH more power bars. Was almost constantly left with 1 battery which discourages use of augs. Id have used cloak far more if I had either option. Instead I kept use to an absolute minimum.

Ah yes, forgot to mention this one. I agree with BigT, the battery was the largest detriment to Aug usage for me also. Using the take downs especially felt more like a punishment then a pleasure. I would almost always leave it at a single bar so I wouldn't be "wasting" a cell if I needed to do a take down. Either the take down needs to be always active like the jump, or whatever cell it uses needs to recharge no matter where it is.



Sniper rifle- waste of space, especially if you have the pistol. I usually keep a sniper rifle handy in most games, this one is way too much space to justify

I used the sniper rifle on two missions, and enjoyed it, but felt like there could have been more opportunities to use it and the scope restricted my FOV too much. More related to BigT's point, I also felt it absorbed too much inventory. For how infrequently it, the RPG and laser rifle got used, they rarely felt worth taking given the inventory space they consumed. Even with max inventory I never felt like I had enough (I'm weapon greedy though, like to collect and upgrade everything!). I understand the need for balancing, but when a EMP or Frag grenade only consumes a single square and accomplishes the same thing, it just seems pointless. Making their requirements more forgiving would promote more usage imo.


PEPS- does anyone actually use this? Utterly useless/ unnecessary inclusion.

Are you kidding!?! For non-lethal play-throughs that thing is a God send, particularly for the larger groups you face towards the end. Loved it for keeping Yelena at bay as well.



While I enjoyed the hacking on the whole, I agree with others that if Ive taken the time to find a pocket secretary or code elsewhere, I still ended up hacking for the exp points. There needs to be some form of balancing to allow other option equal precedence

Also agreed. Finding a code should pay relative to its difficulty to find. Using it should pay a percentage of a successful hack. The two together should equal the XP points of a successful hack.

Rindill the Red
31st Aug 2011, 18:46
Gameplay design is too shallow. Complexity, variety, and systems interaction improve a role-playing experience.

Immersive sim principles need to make a come-back.

Player-directed narrative development through world-interaction as opposed to designer dictated paths and continuity breaking quest-log states.

Designed with less to no hand holding in mind.
-- Since I haven't explored this point elsewhere, I'd like to now. The game is designed to hold the player's hand with objective markers and extensive "quest" logging. Even though you gave the option to disable the on screen objective markers, the game wasn't designed from the ground up with that mentality in mind. Designing the game not to hold the players hand first, and then including the player-aid devices would go a long way to providing a superior experience for both the players who want their hand held and those that want a more genuine experience.

DurandelDG
31st Aug 2011, 19:29
I'd fix the traq rifle so that it doesn't kill people. Kinda defeats the point of it existing in the game.

alyon724
31st Aug 2011, 19:55
Option to have no 3rd person view for cover/takedowns. Breaks immersion and looks silly. Also would make the stealth skills and smart vision actually useful and not a waste of points. First person real time takedowns would have been sex. Watching the same 6 take downs gets a little silly. Its like deus ex, super hero rambo mini cut scene, now back to your paid program.

Reduce the amount of praxxis points for the love of god. You get everything you want half way into the game. You don't really have to specialize in anything because you have have everything.

Make right click spin the heavy machine gun

Add something that says if you have failed ghost/pasifist/whatever. Shotting someone with a tranq gun to have them die from hitting the floor is frustrating.

Maybe a option to skip long railroad walking cut scenes (the beginning) just for convienence on 2nd/3rd playthroughs.

Fix boss glitches. Make them not be stunned for so damn long. Makes the fight a joke.

When alarms go off keep them on until you hack/reset alarm pads in the area. Setting off an alarm should make the rest of the level much harder because everyone is prepared for you. Enemies should default to the alarmed state after this no matter if you turn off the alarm or not. Right now they have the memory or gold fish. Instead of stopping time for knockouts it may be good to just run it in real time.

Just what I can think of off the top of my head.

BTW, 60 hours played on 2 playthroughs. There really are only 2 different ways to go through the game though so a 3rd playthrough is hard to jusify.

EDIT: forgot a big one. ENERGY. ALL batteries should recharge. Energy bars should be used in emergencies. I don't care if you make them longer to recharge. Right now you can go through the entire game with 1 battery. Battery upgrades (except recharge) were worthless. Just double the recharge time.

P4NCH0theD0G
31st Aug 2011, 20:22
If there won't be a way to "earn" some energy from hacking or from the environment or from a DLC tool (Siphon Aug, Siphon Tool, re-charge stations, energy recharge between missions/in free roamin) without eating, I'd even be happy now, if they let just the first two energy bars re-charge... or add an augment for that.

The thing that's bugging me the most with the energy, is that you cannot do combo-moves without losing one energy bar. You know, Cloak+ Typhoon, Silent Running+Double-Takedown etc... Like there was this one very nice moment, where I had three guys in a tight half-circle below me, and I Icarus'ed down behind them, and with the silent landing augment they didn't realize I was there and I typhooned them without ever getting a "Hostile" to ruin my Ghost bonus. And I thought, "Damn. That was nice... But, damn, now I have to eat a snack." It felt like I got punished for doing something pretty cool...

Sure, it adds a layer of resource management to the game, but combo-moves feel like something that belongs into the game, too much so to make it dependent on limited consumables.

ecto69
31st Aug 2011, 20:31
The Quick select button (triangle on PS3) when you rotate the items, it will select a consumable and stay active and if you forget to hit the L3 or R3 (I forget which) to deselect the item it gets used up, even if you are already full of energy you end up wasting your granola bars. It also happens with hypostim as well. It should not activate the item unless you actually picked it, not just scrolled by it.

Also would be nice if the control buttons could be remapped. Even if it was a setting 1 and setting 2 etc which I believe is standard on most games.

alyon724
31st Aug 2011, 20:35
Also, melee takedowns should be half a battery on normal guards and a full bar on heavily armored guards. Makes a lot more sense.

And thinking about first person melee takedowns is awesome... especially if there is a struggle (aka trying to take down a alarmed guard from the side)

Jel
31st Aug 2011, 20:40
Much of what I want to say has already been said, so, I'll agree with certain things and add a few:

1. The alarms, yeah, they should not go off unless you hack a securitypanel/computer.

2. Give me much, much harder difficulty.

3. Yeah, reduce the amount of praxis, bring back some consumables (like rebreathers or armor, so I can safely skip certain augments, knowing that if I ever desire to go all John Rambo the 2nd on enemies, I can equip my ballistic armor)

4. Some other ways to gain a bit energy? Augment that lets you regain a bit on every successful hack or something?

5. No exp on hacking or less exp on hacking, mostly monetary-gain, a bit exp on finding & using a code.

6. General improvement on the writing of characters, many of the characters fell a bit short.

7. A bit better balancing on augs is needed I think, if there was less praxis available it would go a long way, also, certain augs, like social enhancer or the eye-aug, just gave too much with far too little investment make both varied trees.

8. While the social-battles were amazing as they were, make them even harder too, more varied, I really loved these, but yeah, just because they are amazing even now, is no reason to not improve on them.

9. Map-markers you can place yourself.

10. Radar optional, or aug.

11. More objects you can interact with - I admit, I liked the clutter and what it could tell about certain places or even characters, use the clutter, and yes, this means there is going to be objects you can not interact with.. but there is a balance here, HR nearly got it... it got so very close to it, but a bit more objects you can interact with.

12. Level-design. I felt it was rather good in HR.. but it lacked certain vastness, and I felt as if the "stealthy" and "Gun-everything-down"-paths very bit too clearly defined. I didn't exactly get that need for experimenting with different options & routes. This can be improved upon.

14. The feeling of freedom, reactivity and feedback, There was no moment of shooting Anna Navarre in that plain as far as I can tell, I was hoping for something like that. The world needs to react to certain things much better, show us a bit more consequence of our choices, and there should be more feedback on how quests were handled.

15. Inventory: Don't abandon the grind-inventory, it is an amazing thing.. but the sizes of equipment needs to be reconsidered in few cases, certain items shouuld stack, like grenades etc.etc.

16. Balance out the weapons and really make them more varied and more suitable to certain tasks, ranges seemed to be quite off with certain weapons for example, as was the damage.

17. Visuals, let me see blood when enemies die, bloodstains on the floor that patrols can notice etc.

Emerion33
31st Aug 2011, 20:46
Hey just a quick butt in. i love playing as as much a stealthy character as i can, biggest weapon i use is a silence pistol and hardley ever carry grenades, so bosses, being pretty hardcore, can be troublesome. first one was doable, second one managed to get the hang of, but this third guy jaron namir, i dont stand a chance even with my augs!! nothing i've upgraded mitigates damage or provides any decent protection and i havent managed to get close enough but im pretty sure melee wont work. so yh just thought i'd let you know.

revolix
31st Aug 2011, 20:55
Im sure this has been posted numerous times but there is alot of posts and im just posting what i think should be changed and what could realistically be patched.

1. The battery system (instead of it being an aug upgrade it should be removed. In its place should be an aug upgrade for battery recharges e.g: first upgrade gets 1 recharge ect,ect) Then there should be power cells hidden and placed throughout the game and some you buy so that if you collect lets say 5 (idk they'd have to work out a better number depending on the game) you would get a new battery bar (kinda like the legend of zelda when link collects pieces of hearts to extend his health bar).

2. The radar/minimap - it should be a real minimap. The actual map isn't detailed as it is and its a pain in the ass to go back and forth.

3. Game Saves- I think it'd be great if the game save showed a screen shot of where you were. IMO in rpgs especially fallout/oblivion when I have a bunch of saves from doing different things or in this game because there is no gun locker I like to have a save system and seeing a screenshot of the save is alot easier then remembering which save number is which.

4. Stats Page - People are having alot of trouble with their achievements and there is alot of speculation about pacifist or ghost and merciful soul bonuses or the Foxiest of the hounds. People are experiencing what i consider to be glitches that if they knock someone out, later on or almost right after they show up dead.If we had a stats page we would be able to tell if that death counted or not. or if that hostile situation set off an alarm. It would also streamline the ebooks instead of going through that jumbled mess to figure out which ones are missing. Included would be a time spent in game cause I know people have been wanting that as well.

5. Faster load times - (although with my game installed to my xbox i dont really have any issues now, and the pc fix solved their problems)

7. Weapons/Storage Locker- A Storage locker in each hub that if for example I put a sniper rifle in it in detroit, I would be able to get it in Hengsha. Also maybe upgrade purchases of space at stores, so it will kinda look like the inventory you have (and it wouldn't be unlimited)

8. Adjust the cover system- I notice when I get out of cover it kinda puts you at an awkward angle. I'm trying to remember how it was in Vegas 2 but I don't remember it being like that.

9. New Game + - Now I know this has been another argument in the forum community but this is my take on it. First off it is an option, so if you don't wanna use it don't use it. But my definition of NG+ isn't transferring your augs from the prev game cause I don't like that god idea too much. BUT if they implemented something like Alpha Protocol where you needed to complete the rookie set (where you start with no skills at first) which doesn't necessarily have to be part of it but after you do that you unlock veteran. In veteran mode you get your normal skill points to use, but you get extra (kinda like the HR demo they gave to reviewers where as well as the standard augs they had 5 praxis points to mess with). This way its not a god like mode but you get maybe 5-10 praxis points as well as extra cash, and maybe its a harder difficulty than Deus Ex. This way upon beating the game even though there are plenty of reasons to have multiple playthroughs, I would feel like I earned something special for the next playthrough.

Don't get me wrong. I love Deus Ex Human Revolution, I've loved Deus Ex since the beginning, but some of these things I listed were simple oversights that could've been easily put into the game and could essentially be patched into it. I know eidos often looks over these forums to see how the community is reacting and i hope they heed our word. I know not everyone will agree either. Again this is IMO, and also the opinions of other people i've spoken to. So I decided to put it together in a list on the eidos forum. I'm sure there are other things but those were the most important to people

Frraksurred
31st Aug 2011, 21:28
2. The radar/minimap - it should be a real minimap. The actual map isn't detailed as it is and its a pain in the ass to go back and forth.

7. Weapons/Storage Locker- A Storage locker in each hub that if for example I put a sniper rifle in it in detroit, I would be able to get it in Hengsha. Also maybe upgrade purchases of space at stores, so it will kinda look like the inventory you have (and it wouldn't be unlimited)

9. New Game + - Now I know this has been another argument in the forum community but this is my take on it. First off it is an option, so if you don't wanna use it don't use it. But my definition of NG+ isn't transferring your augs from the prev game cause I don't like that god idea too much. BUT if they implemented something like Alpha Protocol where you needed to complete the rookie set (where you start with no skills at first) which doesn't necessarily have to be part of it but after you do that you unlock veteran. In veteran mode you get your normal skill points to use, but you get extra (kinda like the HR demo they gave to reviewers where as well as the standard augs they had 5 praxis points to mess with). This way its not a god like mode but you get maybe 5-10 praxis points as well as extra cash, and maybe its a harder difficulty than Deus Ex. This way upon beating the game even though there are plenty of reasons to have multiple playthroughs, I would feel like I earned something special for the next playthrough.

Excellent points. I had also wished for some fashion of a storage locker, though was not sure how to realistically implement it. Now I think having a storage locker on the helicopter would work best. Make it a portion of the size of Jensen's inventory so it cannot be abused too badly and I'd be more inclined to hang onto that RPG we find early on instead of pitching it immediately due to all the space it takes up.

This game screams for a NG+ mode, but like Revolix states, in the form of bonuses not all your previous equipment. These bonuses could increase if you complete the game on a higher difficulty. As a way of satisfying those who would like to start the game with all their previous stuff, you could through in an additional "bonus" weapon in the stash at your apartment or during the helo ride with Sarif.

P4NCH0theD0G
31st Aug 2011, 21:43
After further deliberation I suggest a slightly different approach for the Energy Bar discussion:

A new Augment, in the last third of the Energy Bar Tree, that... EXPANDS THE REGENERATION FROM ONE BAR TO TWO BARS.
As long as you don't use two full energy bars at once they will regenerate. Thus making Combo-Moves penalty-free, while at the same time encouraging experimentation and increasing the incentive to add more energy bars.

Now lower the regeneration rate, raise the cost for that aug to 2 or 3 praxis points and even the whiny brats that want to feel so superior with their "resource management skills" cannot complain that you can do everything all the time.

And just like that, I solved it.

All Hail Me!

Doom972
31st Aug 2011, 23:36
Broken quests by design (or at least it looks that way):

On my second playthrough I decided to play a Terminator style Adam Jensen.
When I got the Cloaks and Daggers quests, I planned on going native and performing the assassination as asked by O'Mally. When I killed the target with the crossbow, the quest got canceled and both O'Mally and Jenny disappeared.
Later on I had the Corporate Warfare quest in Hengsha, in which I decided to kill the guys I was supposed to neutralize. As a result, the chip was nowhere to be seen and was Darrow's assistant.

In both previous Deus Ex games, every action would get a reaction, I don't remember disobeying orders or doing exactly the opposite of what I was told and having a quest completely disappear, or relevant characters having nothing to say about it, and believe me I tried hard to see if I can (excluding LAM climbing, because it was boring).

I really hope this is a bug but I don't think it is.

vintovka
1st Sep 2011, 00:02
Anyone agree with me on this?



Negatives
----This first one is the most important to me----
- The game was WAY too easy and my first playthrough was on hardest.
* There is only one reason for this, the cover system.... I'm not saying it was a bad idea, it was a good idea just presented in a bad way. It made the game way less interesting because:
# you can see EVERYTHING behind cover
# getting headshots was super easy
# sneaking was extremely easy
# pulling into 3rd person made my immersion level drop (everytime i see Jenson outside his body, I lose the satisfaction of feeling like Im apart of the Deus world)
# took NO skill to beat the game this way.

Now here is how that can be fixed:
# stay in 1st person, but still have cover system, but make it realistic
# peaking around corners should be through jensons eyes, like you would peak in real life
# while peaking it can be easier to get spotted
# YOU HAVE TO RELY ON FOOTSTEPS TO HAVE A GOOD UNDERSTANDING OF WHERE YOUR ENEMY IS AT
*(It seems that everything is relied on visuals, I want a challenge, I want to use more than just my fingers and eyes to play, I want to use as much of my personal resources as possible for a real challenge)

on that not, I did not feel immersed MOST of the game because of 3rd person, you know how cool it would be to see a double take down in first person? Or using the typhoon or even the high drop perk in first person? That would make me feel like a badass, that will get me more mentaly involved with the word. Cutseens as well had the same issue, you should of made Half Life 2 style "story progression" In Half Life 2 I felt like I was Gordon, I was fighting the good fight, I was apart of Gordons life. I just wish I felt the same with Deus Ex and Jenson.

L0neWolf
1st Sep 2011, 08:18
while i know dev's never planned to make a ground breaking game in terms of action i still blame them for the horrible use they made of the 3rd person. When i heard 3rd person was one of the features i though dehr could become a complete game and not just a stealthy rpg regardless of how good it could be. I never asked for an assassin's creed game with augs and covers but proper combat+proper enemies+decent boss fights=win. And first person sucks when it comes to action. I blame devs for the 3rd person cover system to make adam immortal and takedowns working in a similar way similar to qte's, the worst side of consolitis. Gosh, i can't even choose between first and third

nathanj
1st Sep 2011, 10:01
LOL.....since i just made thread and then noticed this ill just copy paste my post.

overall i thought the game was excellent. it could have even surpassed the first game had it not been for a few major issues, at least for me.

first and foremost were the takedowns. i was punching, flipping, throwing people literally a couple of feet away from another npc and it looked absolutely stupid as they just stood there completely unaware that i had just dropped a 180 pound body on the ground right next to them. many many people said that takedowns were going to look silly and they have been proven correct. at the very least they should have made it so that the nonlethal one was ONLY the chokehold from behind one. at least that one i can somehow believe might be silent enough to not alert anyone. they were old after the first few times and within a couple of hours i had pretty much stopped using them out of sheer annoyance. and why lethal ones made noise and nonlethal takedowns didnt baffles be as a design choice.

secondly, someone over their is a raging pacifist. considering that nonlethal weapons were A)silent B)worked with only one shot and C)plenty of ammo it was far easier to use nonlethal against npcs and yet you are rewarded extra points for doing it the easy way. it shouldnt matter if you kill or simply disable someone only if you were detected or not should matter. nonlethal takedowns were silent compared to lethal takedowns which attracted deaf goats from the next county over. maybe i shouldnt be killing gangbangers left and right but ill be damned if im going to leave any of those mercenaries alive after they shot up unarmed scientists. i dont appreciate being penalized because someone is trying to make some moral point.

either dramatically slow down or eliminate the first energy bar recharge. especially after you upgrade the recharge rate there is literally no reason to add additional bars at all. you are simply wasting praxis points if you do that. this brings me to my last issue which is making implants useful.

the stealth (not the cloaking the other stealth augments) upgrades were basically useless because you go the enemy indicator on you minimap right off the bat. you could even tell which direction they were facing making things like seeing their cone of vision more wasted praxis points. you should start out with no minimap and have to spend praxis points to get it and if you want to see what direction npcs are facing you should have to spend another praxis point on that.

weapon balance issues. i think i fired my sniper rifle 3 times on my first playthrough and i sold it right away on my second playthough because my 10mm with laser and silencer and anti armor thingy is the absolute best sniper weapon in the game. whats even weirder is that its more accurate if i shoot from the hip than if i use iron sites. i was picking off guards from across entire levels. the range and/or accuracy need to be adjusted big time on that gun. ive also read posts about revolver with exploding rounds being to powerful but i havent used that yet so i cant confirm.

robots are a joke. seriously one EMP grenade takes out even the biggest robots. they should need at least 2 or 3 emp grenades to destroy them.

back to augments. fortify and analyze were pretty much useless for augments as hacking level and hacking stealth were all that was needed to get by pretty much anything. once you max out hack level and hack stealth anything below level 3 node is 15%. i would suggest changing that so level 3 would be 25%. an idea you might want to borrow from falloutNV is if you reload a save you cant gamble for 30 seconds. perhaps do that with hacking so that people cant just reload and it will force them to actually use their nukes and stopworms...........and yes i will admit that i have been guilty of this very thing. :)

this next part is rambling so dont take it to heart its just me thinking out loud.
i ran into some situations where npcs wouldnt leave a room to follow me. im still a bit conflicted on this. on the one hand it makes the npcs look stupid because they cant even follow me into the next room...........but on the other hand if you are given orders to guard a specific location that has valuable goodies in it then maybe its better that they cant be drawn away. like i said im conflicted on this aspect so just ignore me.

overall though on a scale of 1-10 i would give this game an easy 9. :) you guys did an excellent job and your willingness to listen to the very avid and passionate fanbase and make adjustments has earned my respect and many other peoples respect. you are currently my favority devoper and i hope you guys make another deus ex game cause the franchise is in good hands. :)

ocstew
1st Sep 2011, 10:08
Being able to melee bosses

Kr4233xXL
1st Sep 2011, 10:55
the savegame system.

1. I somehow miss quicksave and quickload
2. some screenshot on the right side would be nice, like in the original Deus Ex. so you'd see where you were as you made that save
3. as it's limited to 99 saves, an easier way to delete more then 1 savegame at the time would be nice

ocstew
1st Sep 2011, 11:03
There is quick save and quick load. Sheesh.

Kr4233xXL
1st Sep 2011, 11:30
k just googled it, F5 and F8. wasn't aware of it since it doesn't show up in the configurations...

so +1 for the info but -1 for the "sheesh"...

wheresmyskulgun
1st Sep 2011, 13:14
I have a whole bunch of small critiques which could be modded/implemented fairly easily.

1) Certain augmentations need to be a bit more useful. Sprint for 2.5 more seconds isn't very impressive compared to picking up heavy objects.

2. I know this will lead people to accuse me of just wanting to be god similar to the people who complain about the lack of ammo, but I really do think all the energy bars should recharge. However, they should do so extremely slowly after the first one. The reason I believe this is that I think resource management should be key, but at the same time it just enables cooler moments when going into a mission you have full energy. I know a lot of people will probably disagree, but such is life.

3. Balance the lethal and non-lethal takedowns. It doesn't make sense that the one which gives you more EXP is also the one which is more stealthy, giving you no reason to ever, ever, use a lethal takedown. Making lethal take-downs stealthy and non-lethal not (which makes more physical sense anyways) or, my personal choice, equalize all forms of neutralizing an enemy to 30 EXP, regardless of weapon, lethality, or method used.

A bigger pair:

1. I really liked the idea of a secret weapon that was hard to get. It was supposed to be the laser rifle, but they changed this is in the final build. It'd be cool to add in a secret room that was extremely difficult to get to (In Tai Young, perhaps, or Omega Ranch), and make this the only place to obtain it.

2. For god's sake, let people animate freely during take downs. Frozen statues look silly.

Mjesko
1st Sep 2011, 13:41
2. I know this will lead people to accuse me of just wanting to be god similar to the people who complain about the lack of ammo, but I really do think all the energy bars should recharge. However, they should do so extremely slowly after the first one. The reason I believe this is that I think resource management should be key, but at the same time it just enables cooler moments when going into a mission you have full energy. I know a lot of people will probably disagree, but such is life.

I think a longer recharge time would only make the game boring, because you have to wait several minutes until you have full power. The energy bar should work like this:

Basic energy: 50, a number is easier to read
Basic recharge maximum: 25, the recharge rate is always 1 per second

First energy upgrade: basic energy + 25, 1 praxis point
First recharge upgrade: recharge maximum + 25, 2 praxis points, requires first energy upgrade
Second energy upgrade: basic energy + 25, 1 praxis point, requires first energy upgrade
Second recharge upgrade: recharge maximum + 25, 2 praxis points, requires first recharge upgrade

wheresmyskulgun
1st Sep 2011, 13:43
I think a longer recharge time would only make the game boring, because you have to wait several minutes until you have full power. The energy bar should work like this:

Basic energy: 50, a number is easier to read
Basic recharge maximum: 25, the recharge rate is always 1 per second

First energy upgrade: basic energy + 25, 1 praxis point
First recharge upgrade: recharge maximum + 25, 2 praxis points, requires first energy upgrade
Second energy upgrade: basic energy + 25, 1 praxis point, requires first energy upgrade
Second recharge upgrade: recharge maximum + 25, 2 praxis points, requires first recharge upgrade

No, first bar takes the same time, its just bars 2-5 that slowly fill up. Yours is fine, but way harder to mod in.

a2moosh
1st Sep 2011, 13:58
As mentioned in this thread http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=120933 triggering an alarm should have consequences:

- Many heavy armed guards patrol through the level
- Security doors limit the movement of the character until they are destroyed
- The alert level remains at red until the end of the mission



I totally agree on this. Alarms should be able to cancel by hacking a terminal or so...but I don't get it, why Security stops being alerted after a minute when someone got shot or they lost track of me?! Thats way too easy!

Well, there are lot of small things that could be improved...but that could be done with an addon as well ;-)

Tuttle
1st Sep 2011, 14:19
I think a longer recharge time would only make the game boring, because you have to wait several minutes until you have full power. The energy bar should work like this:

Basic energy: 50, a number is easier to read
Basic recharge maximum: 25, the recharge rate is always 1 per second

First energy upgrade: basic energy + 25, 1 praxis point
First recharge upgrade: recharge maximum + 25, 2 praxis points, requires first energy upgrade
Second energy upgrade: basic energy + 25, 1 praxis point, requires first energy upgrade
Second recharge upgrade: recharge maximum + 25, 2 praxis points, requires first recharge upgrade

I would just rather keeping the system as it is but providing something like 3-time use droids that fully recharge your energy and splash the limb clinics with unlimited recharges for a price (Small, 100 credits). If you have more energy bars; the recharge droids are that much better (And your money "stretches" that much longer).

No need to change the system; just make consumables not the *only* way to get more than 1 bar of energy (While keeping energy as a limited resource)

Edit: The more available energy is the less enjoyable you will have because the game will get easier (Rapidly easier; pending on how much is "regenerated"). To paraphrase a Developer's tumbler comment (When concerning ammo): "Originally we had too much ammo and players were walking around at maximum capacity; leaving most ammo containers behind. Due to lack of time we couldn't go over the areas again and reduce the ammo so you find full rounds. Instead, we just reduced the over-all count of shots to a small handful. While the testers complained about the lack of ammo we had noticed an increase in enjoyment while playing the game." This would also apply to the whole energy thing... So uh, yeah, I tried to be modest-ish with the regeneration by providing something a little more reliable than an almost hard-coded in-game limit of "extra energy bars".
(Full quote Here (http://eidosmontreal.tumblr.com/post/8998086294/have-you-considered-increasing-the-amounts-of-ammo))

yfr
1st Sep 2011, 14:56
Two glaring problems:

1- Jensen has augmented arms. Jensen can pick up dumpsters. But somehow, when Jensen stuns or kills a skinny little thug who weighs less than 100 kg, Jensen cannot pick up the body. In Fallout 3, you can pick up dead bodies, but Jensen always has to drag bodies slowly.

2 - Enemies are never willing to crouch. If Jensen ambushes enemies from a duct, they will never, ever crawl in and find him.

Of the two, I think the body-dragging is the more important problem.

My first impression, on seeing gameplay movies, is that the cyberpunk action FPS Oni and the sandboxy RPG Vampire: the Masquerade: Bloodlines had a lot of influence on the game designers.

jokerevo
1st Sep 2011, 15:04
Let me make this clear, I would PAY for an A.I/difficulty increase DLC.

For now on my 2nd playthrough (switching to 360 from PS3 because I want custom OST btw lol, can't beat a bit of Bladerunner OST), I will be deliberately handicapping myself to compensate for the flaws:

Hacking up to 5 but no hacking disabling of turrets or cameras.
No recoil mods (never took any on first run and still too easy, consider how stupid this is when you can turn a revolver into a Dirty Harry handcannon with zero kickback...I mean...exploding bullets? SRSLY??).
No cloak
I will take punch walls
I will take see through walls.
Everything else leave at zero lol, yes, even inventory lol. No battery extensions, just pure stealth and timing.


Also the debate on energy bars, I accept that Jensen being the first of his kind would not be running the most optimized gear. Just give us the recharging element but balance this by making all "superhuman" activities use up a portion of the 5 cells. So lifting things, running etc...all should drain. The risk reward element is missing here because of the inane idea to ration FUN..through freakin energy bars lol! All of this is to do with balancing the game towards the inept A.I. If the big heavy gun guy and the camo guy actually did what they're are capable of we really would need 5 recharging cells...ARGGHH

I WISH alarms would never timeout.

Also I wish to add how disappointed I was with the ease of the final 3 chapters on DE difficulty. The only thing you need to be able to do well is time your cover rolls lol.

all in all it's an absolute shame how crippled this game is considering how close E:Montreal got to cloning DE.

Exia
1st Sep 2011, 15:26
One thing that I was thinking over after reading everyone's ideas is why they even bothered with the EXP system in the first place, this would have made the non-lethal or lethal debate a moot point and have a "limited" number of Praxis kits, with some hidden ones for those who either take the time to explore or perhaps integrate a few hidden rewards that into the social thing as a reward for those routes perhaps. Just ideas here bear in mind.

For those who find dragging bodies a drag and yes me too on this one, you can actually fling the bodies, but this does take up energy :( More useful if you are trying to lump a guard quickly into a room you just took down out the way of a camera!

Love the alarm idea and quite frankly was surprised that no additional guards pile into room when these are sounding! I played MGS and I did not even think about additional guards rushing in, just assumed they did in this, but I realise they don't!

They should patch it so we get additional guards pile in? Surely it is not hard to spawn a few more in?

Mjesko
1st Sep 2011, 15:35
I would just rather keeping the system as it is but providing something like 3-time use droids that fully recharge your energy and splash the limb clinics with unlimited recharges for a price (Small, 100 credits). If you have more energy bars; the recharge droids are that much better (And your money "stretches" that much longer).

No need to change the system; just make consumables not the *only* way to get more than 1 bar of energy (While keeping energy as a limited resource)

Good point. The current system would be really better if they provide more recharge options. Instead of recharge droids the character could regenerate all energy cells every time he completes a mission. This would remove the need to run back to LIMB clincs for recharging the energy and it would limit the energy in the game.


One thing that I was thinking over after reading everyone's ideas is why they even bothered with the EXP system in the first place, this would have made the non-lethal or lethal debate a moot point and have a "limited" number of Praxis kits, with some hidden ones for those who either take the time to explore or perhaps integrate a few hidden rewards that into the social thing as a reward for those routes perhaps. Just ideas here bear in mind.

Yep, the reward system in Invisible War was exactly like this and i think it was much more fun and balanced.

Arksun
1st Sep 2011, 16:29
Gotta say I grew to love the third person cover, really didn't think I would as I always prefer first person gaming but, ya, they got me on that one.

Room for improvement? well its out now so its not gonna change :D but I loved the overall experience.

However if there is to be a followup game, now that they've brought in a new generation of gamers I would really love them to do something very very brave and scary and that is take on the action-consequence elements of DX1 and push it to the extreme of whats possible.

Not that there isn't any of that at all in DX HR there is, but its still primarily focused on a single main timeline + side missions that similar (and also very enjoyable) games such as GTA series and Assassins Creed use.

What I would love to see is to take the bold move of completely ditching side missions and focusing on a main mission line with multiple strands interwoven in it, often in places going off on a totally seperate timeline for sometime before intersecting back into the main line, with all the lines culminating in a final end point, which then again branches out into different endings ala DX1. Yes we have multiple approaches to the same scene, but I'm talking about actual storylines branching off, with totally different locations on each timeline too (or using same large locations but travelling a totally seperate distinct path within that map).

It would be a ***** to concieve in the first place and probably have an insane development cost, but if it could be done, that would make it the absolute ultimate game.

ecto69
1st Sep 2011, 16:41
k just googled it, F5 and F8. wasn't aware of it since it doesn't show up in the configurations...

so +1 for the info but -1 for the "sheesh"...

How do I hit F5 F8 on my PS3 :D

Dykes
1st Sep 2011, 16:44
There is always room for improvement and a thing that's really buggin me is...there is no option to keep the language packs that you can download via STEAM.

I suggest to send some friendly people (armed with bats) to VALVE and ask them why I have to download 900 Mb over and over as soon as I want to change the language (e.g. German -> English, English -> German).

That's really annoying. And a fun fact for all of you: Adam Jensen actually sounds better in German than in English. Give it a try! ^^

-Dykes

Mjesko
1st Sep 2011, 17:07
What I would love to see is to take the bold move of completely ditching side missions and focusing on a main mission line with multiple strands interwoven in it, often in places going off on a totally seperate timeline for sometime before intersecting back into the main line, with all the lines culminating in a final end point, which then again branches out into different endings ala DX1. Yes we have multiple approaches to the same scene, but I'm talking about actual storylines branching off, with totally different locations on each timeline too (or using same large locations but travelling a totally seperate distinct path within that map).

I think the sidequests of DEHR are actually very good interwoven with the main story. For example the sidequest of the undercover cop in Detroit starts only because the gangs are moving to close to the FEMA facility.

bucyrus5000
1st Sep 2011, 17:24
Spoilers! Read knowing that I will not be using spoiler blocks because it obstructs my writing style.
First, I would like to thank Eidos for making DXHR. It is a cyber-punk epic with a film noir feel, and I love it. I really enjoyed the game. The great effort put into level design, weapon design, and most of the character design was really apparent. The narrative game design was fairly cerebral and mature, which is something this 36 year old appreciated. I also love that you have this forum, because it is clear that hardcore gamers, real web surfers, hackers, crackers, and aspiring cyber-punks don't love twitter or facebook (but we do like that they are options), and IRC is not ideal for this sort of conversation. This thread, I feel, is important, because DXFR is such a great game in need of improvement. I have played through once and am in the middle of a second playthrough. Now I am unsure if I will even continue with the playthrough because DXHR doesn't seem to have much of a decision tree, but I'll come back to that later. I've spent the past few days (when I'm home) looking for information about upcoming patches and DLCs, hoping there will be more content, and at the same time I've been forming an opinion about the short-comings of DXHR.

Warning, in my critique I will be siting other games for comparison so we can have some common language and understanding.

While I love the game, there were some things I actually hated. While common to such games as DX1 and WoW, the inventory system in DXHR is something I hated the most. It forced me to stop playing to think about what I wanted to keep or toss. That is not a good thing. More inventory space could help, but I have a solution that should be easy to implement. If you've played WoW, then you are familiar with the bank (a place to store all the resources, armor, weapons, and stuff you are not going to use during your raid, farming, rep grind, or questing). What I am recommending is that Adam Jensen has a portable locker that travels with him to most levels so he has access to his extra gear. I said most places, he couldn't possibly have the locker in Singapore, but in Detroit it could be located in his apartment behind his TV, all other places it could be leave behind at his landing zone after the chopper lets him off. In the second Hengsha visit, it could be left somewhere random on the map, like it fell from the chopper during the SAM attack. I think this will save Adam, and us players, from having to carry around upgrade boxes (that take up valuable spaces), and from making tough choices about what weapons we want to invest in. The next thing that bothered me in DXHR was hacking, I spent way too much time and praxis hacking, which is fine for a first playthrough, but second plus playthroughs should be easier. I know that in cyber-punk genre hacking is a critical part of the story. Still there needs to be an easier way (besides filling up inventory with AUDs). What I would recommend is in second plus playthroughs hacking augmentations have some points already invested at the start of the game as a reward for having completed a run. I only mean some, maybe three praxis points. This next issue is something a couple of people in this thread have mentioned; melee combat, there should be a way to jab, punch, elbow, or push enemies. If I am close enough it would be something less ridiculous than a takedown. The takedowns are great, IMO, but they take too much energy and are unrealistic to the point of immersion loss (when I'm taking down 2 dudes in front of me, but being shot at by a third, I take no damage? WTF!). The takedown option should cause me to die in certain situations, make it a gamble. Basically, I'm asking that a few new animations/pre-rendered movies be made where Adam has failed takedowns (gets shot or rifle butted). Next, when I said I like most of the character design, I meant most, not all. I really like how Eidos went with a slightly cartoonised version of humans, but for some reason the women did not receive the same consideration or treatment as the men. I mean, the women are cartoonised, but where the men were made to have broad shoulders and slightly scaled down heads (which is a sort of superhero man-sexy look), the women have oddly shaped breasts and slightly thick waists (which is not superhero woman-sexy). For most of the females in the game, this is fine, but a handful of the women, I feel, should be redone. I think this is important, because this is a game intended for adults, given the heady nature of the content. I am fine with Megan Reed, I get that she is sort of a composite of the film noir vixens of the 1930s and 40s; I'm not loving her face, but I can deal with it. Eliza Cassen is gorgeous, but some of her animation has her lips looking plasticy. The real problem lies in some of the ladies of the night; some, not all, should be prettier. Eidos only has to open a comic book to see what they need to do; they did so well with Eliza and Fedorova, it's a shame to not have more appeal throughout the game. Furthermore, the dancing girls in Hung Hua Hotel were terrible. I remember the first time I played Mass Effect 2 and walked into Afterlife on Omega, I was astounded by the girls dancing; I thought, "WOW, I can't believe that those are 3D rendered characters! They look so real!" I sat there for a while just looking at the dancers, amazed by the detail and attention paid to their movement. True, there dancing is one-note, with little variation, but when compared to DXHR, the difference is appalling. Especially considering where DXHR was developed, Eidos should find it easy to hire a few pole-dances from Club Super Sexe to wear the black cat suits with white balls attached to them, to be digitized into the dance animation. Another note about the ladies at Hung Hua Hotel; they mention that the girls are being forced to get augmentations. What augmentations? Breast enhancement? I wish there was more seen and explained about this. Given the mature content of the game, DXHR should not shy away from the earthy gritty realities of humanity. Tell us and show us what sort of augmentations a prostitute might have, furthermore tell us what sexual augmentations a guy might get. It is not discussed, but even today, people do get prosthetics and augmentations to their sex organs, often out of necessity due to horrific injury (some electively too). The shying away from this subject is apparent again in the Jaron Namir boss fight. He is naked but has a boxy protrusion where his junk should be, like some screwed up skinless Ken doll. Honestly, I don't want to see his shmeckle, but having a "whatever it was" there instead made me notice that Eidos was shying away from the subject. To continue this line of thought, and talking about the maturity inherent to DXHR, there was a noticeable absence of fan service. True, fan service (sexy and often naked women) can often be used to pander to the lowest common denominator for the sake of market share grabbing, but when used properly, like in any good work of art, can move the player emotionally in fun and exciting ways. The Witcher 2 did this very well, maybe too much, and I wouldn't recommend DXHR have that much fan service. I would say Mass Effect 2 was a good example of fan service done wrong; they used it just to market the game, basically saying, "Players can look at Miranda, our perfectly designed woman, in really tight clothes and have sex with her!" DXHR should look to add fan service to the likes of between The Witcher 2 and Alpha Protocal. Which leads to the issue of romance, other than chasing down Megan, we get little romance in DXHR, but I, for one, would welcome more, maybe a scene with Eliza trying to physically express her affection and infatuation with Adam.

The most critical issue to talk about here, I feel, is replayability. As of now, DXHR is lacking replayability in the extreme and threatens to tank the entire game, thus capsizing its ability to hold market share. I played through The Witcher 12 times, I played through The Witcher 2 16 times, I played through Alpha Protocol 26 times, I played through Mass effect 8 times, I played through Mass effect 28 times (and counting), I played through Deus Ex many more times than I can count, but right now I am unsure if I will play DXHR more than twice. I bought all the DLCs and expansions for all my games because I loved playing them and the addons made the games better and more expansive. Doing multiple playthroughs on the games was very enjoyable because of the extreme variations of the decision trees that were possible (like in Alpha Protocol or Deus Ex) or the replay bonuses that made the further playthroughs more enjoyable (like in The Witcher series and Mass Effect series). I feel it is extremely important that DXHR have a patch to give replay bonuses immediately. It is easy to implement and a step in the right direction. First the patch should allow use to save each playthrough in different folders. Next, the replay bonus should give us at the start of the new game, some more money, a few free praxis, three praxis invested in hacking augmentations, and a few (say five?) AUDs. Also the player is asked to pick 1 weapon he modified during the previous playthroughs to start the new game with. Another thing to fix with a patch or DLC is the difficulty levels; we need at least 2 more difficulty levels higher than the current hardest. While the enemies should have more health and all that, I would rather see more enemies and with higher health/stronger weapons, and as a bonus give us earlier access to heavy weapons. As part of the patches or DLCs to add the replay bonuses and higher difficulties, I would like to also see late game augmentations added. Let’s say, when the recall biochips are issued, Adam can also buy one of three new augmentations; for example a Sentinel health upgrade, a Sarif series 9 energy converter, or a "Jupiter Personal Defense system". We, the player, can only choose one of the three. The Sentinel Health upgrade would allow us to repair past 100 health (TBD the particulars by Eidos). The Sarif series 9 energy converter would allow Adam to recharge more than just one cell (let’s say if Adam has energy level 2 upgrade (4 cells), then the Sarif series 9 allows Adam to charge up 3 cells). The Jupiter Personal Defense system would work like a giant tesla coil, a super tazer with a chain effect, incapacitating all it strikes (uses energy cells TBD by Eidos). Another critical problem with replaying, and it has been mentioned by more people in this thread than I want to site, is the boss fights. The boss fights are too easy, especially the final. The first fight, Barret, is fine, but could be tougher. The second fight, Fedorova, needs something (Fedorova tossing grenades maybe?). The third fight, Namir, could use mines or something. The final fight needs the most work done on it. Zhao could probably use an attack. The fight needs to be tougher and more of a puzzle to solve. Eidos, get witty in solving this issue please. Please make the final boss fight tougher, but in a surprising and cerebral way. Furthermore, about this last boss fight, it does seem wrong that we have to kill the drones; there should be some way to save them. Killing them should be the easy solution, but saving them should be difficult, but rewarding.

Now this last recommendation is something no game developer wants to do, but it could tremendously help the game's profit margin. DXHR needs an expansion.:eek: Yes, I said it! The dreaded expansion issue; essentially meaning we want Eidos to build new levels, pay for more voice acting, design more characters, make the narrative game designer cry and scream, essentially asking for a new game to be developed in terms of effort. Earlier I mentioned the issue of a decision tree, and DXHR's lack thereof. What I mean is having decisions we make playing that seriously alters the game, thus leading us to new places and/or changing the nature of Adam's relationship with the main characters of the game. For the expansion, I would like to see new city hubs, new characters, new missions, new side missions, new love interests, and changes to Adam's relationships if certain decisions are made. Also an expansion to possible endings would be welcome too. The expansion is needed, but Eidos needs to think up the best way to implement such. Some ideas I had were to make it possible, albeit difficult, to kill Sarif (indirectly by consequence of a decision) thus leading to Zhao or Bob Page acquiring Sarif Industries, and making it possible to kill Darrow, thus leading to a boss fight and Panchea being run by Bob page or a new character (someone from Illuminati), and making it possible to kill Taggart thus leading to Lazarus or Sanders (if he is alive) leading the Humanity Front. Those are just some ideas I'm not married too. On the plus side, I would happily pay for such an expansion, and I imagine so would other players (even the ones who would post a negative reply to the suggestion of paying for an expansion).

The final thing I would change in DXHR is the epilogue, for the sake of storytelling, character interactions, and setting up to import a save file into the next DX game (fingers crossed). I would like to respawn in Detroit to talk with the other characters and maybe have a romance scene with my love interest.

I do wish Eidos to make these changes, but understand that it is up to the development team how to implement and I do encourage them to surprise us with unimagined wit, but I imagine we would all like to know if Eidos is taking this seriously and if these patches, DLCs, and expansions are in the works. I have read the entire thread so far and if I have mentioned something you wrote, know that I am agreeing with you and +1ing your statement. If you do agree with me, I would appreciate a +1 too.

MissStabby
1st Sep 2011, 17:25
A few things that could benefit the game (sequel?):

* Giving a XP bonus and nuke/stop rewards for typing in the correct keycode/password (the reward for hunting down pda's and security emails)

* Adding a Melee attack to bash windows, boxes, doors and skulls. (maybe adding a 25% energy use on every punch)

* Increase the "auto recharge" to 50% of the max energy capacity. So if you have 6 cells, you autorecharge 3.
This way candybars still serve a purpose, but when you are in a "candybar free zone" you still are capable of using the more energy consuming augs. (like stealthing towards a takedown)

* Adding XP for a lethal takedown. Since lethal takedowns are noisy and a huge energy drain, they might aswell just reward some sweet xp points for it.

* Let LIMB clinics carry more than just 2 Praxis points. srsly, it's very disapointing to spend a lot of time trying to obtain some extra creditz, only to have the limb clinic sell 2 of the Praxis points for every "zone". (like LIMB restocks everytime you travel abroad)

* Give us a storage unit, being it in the helicopter, at your drop/pickup location or just close to your homebase/hideout.
This will create a lot more freedom for players. "OMG LOOK A LASER RIFLE!!!" and then having to ditch your precious sniper to obtain it, instead of just backtracking to your dropzone and depositing the big weapon you have to carry everything at all times.
Especially since just "dropping" stuff at your home depot will just result in a akward "but i thought we were going back to my home first, how am i going to snipe those guys now?!"

* Add a takedown that lets you drag guards around corners.

* Add a special "robot takedown" that lets you (stealthly) disable robots by approaching them from behind and flipping their powerswitches or pulling their batteries.
I would love to see a boxguard being "boxed" again after a succesful deactivation.
ofcourse guards could reactivate it. (just like KO enemies being wakeable)

* Add a "neutralise robots" option to the security terminals.
Currently you can disable turrets and cameras but you can't have the robots stay offline when a alarm triggers.
So currently pacifists cant actually "neutralise" robots that are on standby, making it a waste of praxis points.

* Let us pilot a boxguard or security droid with some hackingskills and augments, that would be AWESOME.

* Add the freedom to return to other (unlocked)cityhubs at will, or atleast announce "we wont return here EVER".

* Add a floor takedown that can be initated from groundlevel and manages to stay behind the chesthigh walls.

* Add Ledge pushes/takedowns. Why cant jensen just throw a enemy of a 3 mile high balcony in TYM, it's such a waste of potential...

* Add a more meaningfull epilogue just hearing a narration of jensen claiming he made the right decision (whatever your choise was) with some stockfootage just felt like being rewarded "a brick in the face" for completing a 30 hour game. maybe include a few conversations with both taggart, sarif, pritchard, your ex-SWAT collegue, reed or her mum. Then also include a nice rendered cinematic (like the many you see during the course of the game and in the trailers) about the consequences of your desissions (and not just the final choise desission).
Hell, just a voiceover saying what happened in the end (like in the fallouts) would do the trick.

* Add more consequences for your gameplay style/choises.
Like if you play the game like a murdering rambo, The missions and social interactions would be delivered different to you compared to when you would be a stealthy nonlethal fox.

* Increase inventory dramatically. Even will all augs i still had a space shortage, it limits your "choises" in gameplay aswell.
I would love to see that 0 augs gives you the maximum you have now, and with every aug you get a extra "page" of stuff to carry.

* Have more physics and breakable objects.
I find it hard to believe that while i can smash through concrete walls, i cant even punch through a cardboard cubicle.
Or when some glass windows can be shotdown, others cant (wasting ammo on them). Or even computers that seem to be invunerable.
leading to the following...

* Make computers breakable.
It's a bit unrealistic to have a firefight or grenadespam in a office only to have every computer around still running and undamaged.
This would really improve gameplay since people would have to be carefull about shooting/grenading in a situation where they have computers with valuable info.
This also adds space for another augment that lets you jack into computers/keypads that have their monitors/keyboards destroyed.

* Add a "Augmented reality" augmentation that can overlay floorplans onto your vision. This could actually help greatly with situational awareness and tactics.
Just have it "drain energy when activated"

* Add handprint doors (and a "mimic hand" aug).
Currently only alarms have a handprint locks, and there's no way to take a guard's hand (scan it?) and press the hand against the panel for easy acces.

* Add Ledgegrabs.
Why with all the augs that he has, cant he even do a simple ledgegrab? (its nearly impossible to re-enter ceiling vents aswell)


There's probably more stuff i thought about but forgot to write down, still...
ITS A AWESOME GAME!

Mjesko
1st Sep 2011, 17:37
* Add the freedom to return to other (unlocked)cityhubs at will, or atleast announce "we wont return here EVER".

* Increase inventory dramatically. Even will all augs i still had a space shortage, it limits your "choises" in gameplay aswell.
I would love to see that 0 augs gives you the maximum you have now, and with every aug you get a extra "page" of stuff to carry.

The game warns you if you leave a city hub, that all unfinished sidequests are lost.

I think the current inventory size is great, because it makes the augmentations really useful and you must always choose what kind of equipment you carry.

bucyrus5000
1st Sep 2011, 17:38
Awesome reply MissStabby! +1
the only things I'd mildly disagree with you about is:


* Let LIMB clinics carry more than just 2 Praxis points. srsly, it's very disapointing to spend a lot of time trying to obtain some extra creditz, only to have the limb clinic sell 2 of the Praxis points for every "zone". (like LIMB restocks everytime you travel abroad)

* Increase inventory dramatically. Even will all augs i still had a space shortage, it limits your "choises" in gameplay aswell.
I would love to see that 0 augs gives you the maximum you have now, and with every aug you get a extra "page" of stuff to carry.

If the LIMB clinics sold more praxis, we would have an overpowered Jensen in the middle of the game. We only need a few extra praxis IMO for a second playthrogh, mainly to take the burden off of hacking and make higher difficulty settings playable (assuming we get high difficulty setting than what we have now). The inventory issue could be dealt with your idea about storage unit.

Arksun
1st Sep 2011, 17:44
I think the sidequests of DEHR are actually very good interwoven with the main story. For example the sidequest of the undercover cop in Detroit starts only because the gangs are moving to close to the FEMA facility.

I think you misunderstood my point. Yes they're nicely interwoven into the main story of course, but the sidequests in DX HR are optional addons and don't significantly affect the main timeline. Stuff that does is chosing whether to have the Bio Chip replaced. I'm talking about an interwoven main timeline only, with distinct seperate paths, a path that once you set yourself along you can't do the alternative ones at that point in time, only to cross and meet at a later point. For example, if you kill a particular important person, there's a seperate main timeline for that than if you didn't, possibly involving completely different locations!. DX1 touched on this stuff like saving your brother in the hotel so he doesn't appear dead in MJ12, but instead in Hong Kong later and assisting via the info link after that. I'm talking about taking that action - consequence to the absolute ultimate level.

This gives a game incredible replay value, but at the cost of increased development, though again by reducing or removing those optional side quests this saves some of that development cost.

L0neWolf
1st Sep 2011, 17:45
How do I hit F5 F8 on my PS3 :D

buy a pc.

Mjesko
1st Sep 2011, 17:59
I think you misunderstood my point. Yes they're nicely interwoven into the main story of course, but the sidequests in DX HR are optional addons and don't significantly affect the main timeline. Stuff that does is chosing whether to have the Bio Chip replaced. I'm talking about an interwoven main timeline only, with distinct seperate paths, a path that once you set yourself along you can't do the alternative ones at that point in time, only to cross and meet at a later point. For example, if you kill a particular important person, there's a seperate main timeline for that than if you didn't, possibly involving completely different locations!. DX1 touched on this stuff like saving your brother in the hotel so he doesn't appear dead in MJ12, but instead in Hong Kong later and assisting via the info link after that. I'm talking about taking that action - consequence to the absolute ultimate level.


Ah ok, yes that would be great. I think only DX1 and Vampire Bloodlines have managed that kind of storytelling.

MissStabby
1st Sep 2011, 18:02
Awesome reply MissStabby! +1

If the LIMB clinics sold more praxis, we would have an overpowered Jensen in the middle of the game.

Thanks for that +1.
Also if the praxis would have to be fixed while being constrained to avoid overpoweredness,
I would suggest to have all the praxis jensen can obtain through LIMB clinics being payed for by Sarif industries.
And have them being made available at set moments during the story.

That way players wont get the idea that they should save/obtain as much money as possible to buy all the praxis points. Only to be dissapointed with having a ton of cash and no place to "buy" praxis points.

Another balancing feature would be that every praxis level you gain needs a more expensive praxis package in order to be effective over the previous one. Like the first praxis might cost you 500 but eventually those points will cost 15k per point when only needing one or 2 more points.

Vithren
1st Sep 2011, 18:14
All right! First post, first play-through(and only until New Game+ will be added), in love with the game and shared a tear or two during the end. I would like to thank people responsible for this game. It was a beautiful ride and I honestly never thought I would have the opportunity to play great Deus Ex game again. And it was god damn it beautiful.



Aesthetics, graphics:
- add motion blur!; it suits dream-like and stylized reality presented in the game
- tone a bit down some of the augmentation effects; Icarus looks like I would be descending from heavens and the effect itself gives me huge "what the hell did I just do?"; the same goes for Cloaking, it should be bit more subtle, now I don't really believe the guards would not notice this eye-blazing glow
- More and more variety in particle effects; I understand it's engine thing and it's simply hard to add more, but people with powerful PCs can handle it
- Augmentations could modify the appearance of main hero, even if the changes would (and should) be subtle
- The angles used in cut-scenes were mostly bad; you would greatly benefit from someone that knows how to handle the camera; better use of different focal lengths would also make the experience a better one
- More variety in enemies; randomized generation based on location rules?

Sound:
- Human voices come in more then two male types
- More variety in enemies responses would be a lovely addition

Gameplay:
- melee combat and weapons; is there a reason they were not included? Little slow motion effect with QTE mechanic, even, based on player build(for example: strength augmentations should allow to fight even with the heaviest enemies)
- melee augmentations; apart from the blades we get for free
- If there have to be boss fights, consider people that play with other than "gun run" build; now it's a simple battle about "how much firepower can you bring in one room", where is the skill in that?
- Modified power regeneration system; the extra power cells could regenerate, but quite a bit slower then the original one, for example:
1 cell: 100 speed
2 cells: first cell 100 speed, second cell 50 speed
3 cells: 100 speed, 65 speed, 50 speed
4 : 100, 80, 65, 50
5 : 100, 95, 80, 65, 50
The voices about 50%+ of power cells regenerating also sound better than what is now.

- more things to throw; I was sick of playing stealth-ZeroKill style and be forced to throw printers(!?) to get someones attention. There is so much rubbish in DE:HR that could be useful aaaand it's not.
- if I destroy the wall, I should have the option to put person behind it to sleep, and not automatically kill
- there should be a way to fight with multiple enemies other than "I'LL JUST THROW MY GAS GRENADE DEPR"; krav-maga and others could help; but please, do not go with Assassins Creed route, the whole fighting mechanic there is broken beyond repair
- the augmented reality could be more useful and its synthetic-artificial nature more visible; I loved the Smart Vision(seeing through walls) - why not use the idea and add static interference that augments could pick up from the surroundings? The thin overlay of AR could be used even more than it is, the computational nature of it - exposed, turned into art.

- takedowns additions:
around the corner
from behind "one cell wide" cover
that would instantly drop them to their knees
that would break more than just their arms
that would break their jaws

- if the power regeneration would be changed: multi-cell takedowns, for example:
three people at once for two power cells
ultra fast one man takedown that would not let him even scream
one that would grab people from under the railing when they are peeking out

- why not walking on the ceilings like spider, thanks to heavily augmented but sleek build
- the weapon customization was nowhere as intuitive as it should be; clear distinction and information about possible modifications should be available at any time
- OR/OR augmentations, that would really make choices in build count
- augmentations that can be only found, hacked or taken, the augmentation underground exists and hackers are sure there and they are working hard
- crawling is needed


I loved the epilogue(and the story in the game was really good), but one question remains: what is canon here? We were given the choice to decide, but what happened that that will give us the opportunity to play again?



PS yes, I would love to develop further DE titles with you.

bucyrus5000
1st Sep 2011, 18:15
Thanks for that +1.
Also if the praxis would have to be fixed while being constrained to avoid overpoweredness,
I would suggest to have all the praxis jensen can obtain through LIMB clinics being payed for by Sarif industries.
And have them being made available at set moments during the story.

That way players wont get the idea that they should save/obtain as much money as possible to buy all the praxis points. Only to be dissapointed with having a ton of cash and no place to "buy" praxis points.

Another balancing feature would be that every praxis level you gain needs a more expensive praxis package in order to be effective over the previous one. Like the first praxis might cost you 500 but eventually those points will cost 15k per point when only needing one or 2 more points.

that's a great idea, but I think your other ideas are far more crucial to the game, I mention similar in my post too. I think DXHR lacks replayability and that is a serious problem which will lead to bad reviews and low sales, especially as weeks turn into months. I think if things are not changed or added soon, Eidos may need to abandon the project altogether or risk bankruptcy.

MissStabby
1st Sep 2011, 19:19
I think DXHR lacks replayability

I think so too, especially since there's no way to do a "Newgame+"
For example, i got the plasma canon at about 80% of the game, and i havnt fired a bolt before finishing the game since i was doing a nonlethal run.
That is such a waste of potential, I would just love to start the hostage mission with that gun and then go beserk with it on the guys there. :lol:

bucyrus5000
1st Sep 2011, 19:31
I think so too, especially since there's no way to do a "Newgame+"
For example, i got the plasma canon at about 80% of the game, and i havnt fired a bolt before finishing the game since i was doing a nonlethal run.
That is such a waste of potential, I would just love to start the hostage mission with that gun and then go beserk with it on the guys there. :lol:

That reminds me, I would like to add to my first statement about the 2nd+ playthroughs,:

I feel it is extremely important that DXHR have a patch to give replay bonuses immediately. It is easy to implement and a step in the right direction. First the patch should allow use to save each playthrough in different folders. Next, the replay bonus should give us at the start of the new game, some more money, a few free praxis, three praxis invested in hacking augmentations, and a few (say five?) AUDs. Also the player is asked to pick 1 weapon he modified during the previous playthroughs to start the new game with.

I also liked that Plasma rifle, it was so wicked and very inventory friendly.

Fox89
1st Sep 2011, 19:45
I want to take a moment to talk about the biggest change I think needs to be made:

The XP system has to go.

Note that I only mean the XP system, and not the Praxis points system, which I think works well. The trouble with XP for things like exploration, hacking, takedowns and so on, is that it is nearly impossible to balance properly. Even people like me, who don't habitually farm XP, find ourselves hacking terminals we have found the passcodes for, because there is no reward for using the passcode, whereas there is a reward for XP.

Also, I know people will complete an objective by doing it one way, but then go back through the level to find all the vents and walls to smash. Again, just for the XP. This kind of thing reduces replay ability, as players end up seeing all the content on the first run through, even the multiple paths to one objective that they didn't take. Players need to be liberated from this desire to farm XP, and the way to do that is to eliminate it. In it's place, I would just place Praxis kits around the maps (in secret rooms and cupboards, not 'en route' to objectives in vents etc). This would encourage exploration and have exactly the same effect on skills and upgrades as XP currently does, but without encouraging certain activities over others.

I mean, who blew up doors in Human Revolution? I bet you didn't do it very often, because why make noise and use a consumable when you could hack it and gain XP?

The reintroduction on lockpicks would be welcome as well to reduce the over-reliance on hacking, but from an all-round balance perspective, the XP system seems both superfluous and restrictive, and I think future games would benefit from it's removal. Certainly, if we ever get mod tools that will be the first thing I change.

ZakKa89
1st Sep 2011, 19:51
XP system doesn't have to go, just rebalanced a bit.

I had no issue with hacking multple pc's so I could earn money, XP and read e-mails.

It would be less off a rpg without the xp system. I really liked it even though it has some (in my opnion minor) balancing issues. I am a huge XP farmer though. I will crawl trough a vent just to get some xp, and then go back and try a different route :)

revolix
1st Sep 2011, 19:57
MY battery idea (from my list of changes above, read it and tell me what you think!)

The battery system (instead of it being an aug upgrade it should be removed. In its place should be an aug upgrade for battery recharges e.g: first upgrade gets 1 recharge ect,ect) Then there should be power cells hidden and placed throughout the game and some you buy so that if you collect lets say 5 (idk they'd have to work out a better number depending on the game) you would get a new battery bar (kinda like the legend of zelda when link collects pieces of hearts to extend his health bar).

bucyrus5000
1st Sep 2011, 19:58
... Even people like me, who don't habitually farm XP, find ourselves hacking terminals we have found the passcodes for, because there is no reward for using the passcode, whereas there is a reward for XP.

Also, I know people will complete an objective by doing it one way, but then go back through the level to find all the vents and walls to smash. Again, just for the XP. This kind of thing reduces replay ability, as players end up seeing all the content on the first run through, even the multiple paths to one objective that they didn't take. Players need to be liberated from this desire to farm XP, and the way to do that is to eliminate it. In it's place, I would just place Praxis kits around the maps (in secret rooms and cupboards, not 'en route' to objectives in vents etc). This would encourage exploration and have exactly the same effect on skills and upgrades as XP currently does, but without encouraging certain activities over others.

I mean, who blew up doors in Human Revolution? I bet you didn't do it very often, because why make noise and use a consumable when you could hack it and gain XP?...

+1 I hear you on that. I was totally farming XP on my 1st run and I really don't know if I will complete my 2nd run because I have seen it all already.



MY battery idea (from my list of changes above, read it and tell me what you think!)

The battery system (instead of it being an aug upgrade it should be removed. In its place should be an aug upgrade for battery recharges e.g: first upgrade gets 1 recharge ect,ect) Then there should be power cells hidden and placed throughout the game and some you buy so that if you collect lets say 5 (idk they'd have to work out a better number depending on the game) you would get a new battery bar (kinda like the legend of zelda when link collects pieces of hearts to extend his health bar).
I like the idea +1, but everyone of us has a energy cell idea. Clearly it is an issue. It needs some reworking. My idea was a mid-game augmentation Adam could acquire that lets him recharge up to one less cell than what he has. Yadda Yadda, it's the same derp we all want. Your idea seems fun and interesting, but whatever is implemented, the energy cell issue needs to be addressed.

Fox89
1st Sep 2011, 20:16
XP system doesn't have to go, just rebalanced a bit.

I had no issue with hacking multple pc's so I could earn money, XP and read e-mails.

It would be less off a rpg without the xp system. I really liked it even though it has some (in my opnion minor) balancing issues. I am a huge XP farmer though. I will crawl trough a vent just to get some xp, and then go back and try a different route :)

Whilst you are right, from a practical perspective I think re-balancing it will be far, far more difficult to get right then removing it altogether. Also, every time an 'alternate path' to an objective is 'incentivized' with XP, you encourage the player to look for it and reduce replay ability. If this were Oblivion, fine, that's all about leveling up, improving your stats in order to do more interesting things. In Deus Ex, we don't want the player seeing all the content on the first run just because they were farming XP, we want them to see new stuff every time they play. :)

And how much will it reduce the RPG aspect? All XP does is earn you Praxis points. The actual role-playing element in my view comes from choosing what skills to invest those Praxis points in. This would still be present if you removed XP and just directly awarded Praxis points for objectives/finding kits, so I don't think removing XP would really affect the role-playing all that much.

If they used the Praxis system in future, I would be perfectly happy if it was properly balanced. But a balanced XP system is a holy grail few ever reach, especially in any game that offers 'freedom'. Getting rid of it entirely would be much more manageable I think, and with very few negative impacts on the experience.

Jack Dandy
1st Sep 2011, 20:37
I -LOVED- The game! I played the first DX a while ago to get ready for this, and I enjoyed it's story and gameplay alot.
HR didn't disappoint me at all! Long game, varied ways to deal with situations, cool conversations, interesting characters... And that post-credits scene with Bob Page and the original theme was awesome.
BUT there were still some problems.

1. Hacking was a bit overpowered/overused in my opinion. Most of the time, it was nearly impossible to find appropriate passwords, and you had to hack each one manually. And there were stations freaking everywhere! It wasn't terrible, but got kinda tiring near the end. Plus, many sidequets could not be finished if you didn't have good hacking levels. The personal secretaries should have been more plentiful for those, IMO.

2. I'll be blunt about this one- the final level was TERRIBLE. BAD. Running from silly zombies inside a maze, how exciting. :rolleyes:
The final boss battle was also very dull, and the villain was just... really small-time. The 4 endings were also too minimalistic. They kinda reminded me of MGS2's epilogue by Snake, but without an actual.. "impact", I guess.

3. The game kinda lost it's non-linearity about 3/4 through the game. It wasn't terrible since the missions were still fun, but the shift was a bit too sudden. Also, I disliked how people only commented about your actions from the first mission.. Basically, I would really like it if more parts of the game would feel like the first Detroit/Hengsha sections.

4. I think should have been some more connections to the original DX. I was expecting Page to be one of the final villains, except you couldn't do anything against him or something like that. Oh well, that's a more personal gripe.

Good luck on your future projects! You got yourselves a fan! :wave:

Kr4233xXL
1st Sep 2011, 21:38
There is always room for improvement and a thing that's really buggin me is...there is no option to keep the language packs that you can download via STEAM.

I suggest to send some friendly people (armed with bats) to VALVE and ask them why I have to download 900 Mb over and over as soon as I want to change the language (e.g. German -> English, English -> German).

That's really annoying. And a fun fact for all of you: Adam Jensen actually sounds better in German than in English. Give it a try! ^^

-Dykes

Did you try backup bigfile_German/English.000 and simply copy it in again when you want to play in german/english? I'd just try that if I were you. I have to agree that Adam's voice in the german version is pretty badass. It fits perfectly imo. I liked the voice of "Windmill", too. But I dunno what went wrong with this game as almost nothing is lip synch. I dunno if it can be fixed but I'd like to see that. It'd be a waste of the good voices in the german version if ppl would switch to english because of that.

---------------------------

1. I've read some good things here which I fully support. F.e. the thing with dragging the bodies around or that enemies never crouch. So you always can run into some vent shafts and fire your missile launcher or throw grenades outta there until everything's "gone" on the outside :lol:

2. You should also make some more noise while crouching through air shafts then you normally do, depending on the different surfaces you walk on. I always have the metal sound from the vent shafts of Duke Nukem 3D in my head when I crouch through these here in DX:HR. It'd make the sneaking-augs relevant for me, too. As it now is, I don't have any reason to use them, as I can do anything by simply crouching.

3. One aug that could use some adjustment would be the "reflex booster" imo. It's pretty static. I mean you got lucky if enemies are close together and it works. But most of the time this isn't the case. So some combos/special moves for this thing would be nice. While Adam is attacking the first guy with his fist or blade you should be given the opportunity to already prepare for the second attack via some key-combo. Dunno, press the key to duck down and he kicks the guy behind him in the nuts, Sonja-style.

There's much more with the close combat you should be able to make. I mean there are 5 years old kids out there with more moves then Adam :lol:

I'd really like to play that game w/o any weapons in close combat but the options aren't versatile enough now as it is. I really had to laugh about the first boss fight: he grabs you and makes some kind of "powerbomb" like the Undertaker did (still does?). You should be able to punch this guy, too. Believe me, after I died for the 20th time on this guy, to punch him was my only desire :lol:

Well, I don't ask for a Muay Thai/Capoeira/Krav Maga/whatever fighting sim ;)

Fallount NV had a good approach with their special moves there. Simple but effective. For a DLC or sequel you should have a teacher like Pai Mei from whom you could learn some moves/philosophy. Some visit in the Shaolin Monestary or Golden Glory in the Netherlands would be cool, too.

subtlesnake
1st Sep 2011, 22:55
Gameplay design is too shallow. Complexity, variety, and systems interaction improve a role-playing experience.

Immersive sim principles need to make a come-back.

What does that actually mean, concretely?

Rindill the Red
1st Sep 2011, 23:47
What does that actually mean, concretely?

There are a lot of documents floating about the web on the immersive sim.

But the basic principles are...
1. Immersion in an elaborate, consistent, reactive, and open game world
2. Effort is taken to create a reactive and complex simulation of the game world; including AI, physics, total interactivity and interacting systems to provide for emergent gameplay
3. Consistent first person perspective to maintain imaginative presence in the game world.

emergent gameplay: Complex and creative game-play that emerges from interacting game mechanics rather than having been specifically designed for the player to do.

I'd like to add organic narrative interaction to the list.

One of Warren's primary goals for Deus Ex was to react to whatever the player might think to do in the simulation (within reasonable constraints). This desire gave rise to the most memorable moments of Deus Ex. DX:HR fails terribly in this regard.

LaMort13
2nd Sep 2011, 00:45
Broken quests by design (or at least it looks that way):

On my second playthrough I decided to play a Terminator style Adam Jensen.
When I got the Cloaks and Daggers quests, I planned on going native and performing the assassination as asked by O'Mally. When I killed the target with the crossbow, the quest got canceled and both O'Mally and Jenny disappeared.
Later on I had the Corporate Warfare quest in Hengsha, in which I decided to kill the guys I was supposed to neutralize. As a result, the chip was nowhere to be seen and was Darrow's assistant.

In both previous Deus Ex games, every action would get a reaction, I don't remember disobeying orders or doing exactly the opposite of what I was told and having a quest completely disappear, or relevant characters having nothing to say about it, and believe me I tried hard to see if I can (excluding LAM climbing, because it was boring).

I really hope this is a bug but I don't think it is.

Yeah, I just did the same thing on my second playthrough, and I was pretty disappointed.

LaMort13
2nd Sep 2011, 00:59
The boss fights are too easy, especially the final. The first fight, Barret, is fine, but could be tougher. The second fight, Fedorova, needs something (Fedorova tossing grenades maybe?). The third fight, Namir, could use mines or something. The final fight needs the most work done on it. Zhao could probably use an attack. The fight needs to be tougher and more of a puzzle to solve. Eidos, get witty in solving this issue please. Please make the final boss fight tougher, but in a surprising and cerebral way. Furthermore, about this last boss fight, it does seem wrong that we have to kill the drones; there should be some way to save them. Killing them should be the easy solution, but saving them should be difficult, but rewarding.


I finished the last boss without firing a single shot at anything other than Zhao. It is possible.

All you have to do is hack the terminal on the main column facing Zhao, and then make yourself a sandwich...because it takes 2-3 minutes for the glass to come falling down.

MissStabby
2nd Sep 2011, 07:39
I finished the last boss without firing a single shot at anything other than Zhao.

There's an even simpler method...

Think Physics... "look at me being behind a explosive and bulletproof "GLASS" panel that is also transparent and lets light through..."

My reaction: "IMA FIRING MAH LAZOR!!!"

srsly, the endbattle was over in like 30 seconds...

Tuttle
2nd Sep 2011, 07:52
But the basic principles are...
1. Immersion in an elaborate, consistent, reactive, and open game world
2. Effort is taken to create a reactive and complex simulation of the game world; including AI, physics, total interactivity and interacting systems to provide for emergent gameplay
3. Consistent first person perspective to maintain imaginative presence in the game world.

Wow... You sound like you would love a lot of nethack games (Granted, not first person but if you have a strong imagination).

And can you imagine the amount of resources it would take to create, bug test and run a game like that? You can only have so many things in an area before a console dies, you can have only so much of a powerful AI before the console dies (Or at least, something suffers for the processing power required)... And it kinda goes on.

Not blaming the console thing for this; it's just easier. There are plenty of people who own PC's that are worse or at equal footing with a console who play this game (Those who have a better PC than a PS3 I'm willing to bet are not in the majority by a large field)

Ashpolt
2nd Sep 2011, 09:16
You can only have so many things in an area before a console dies, you can have only so much of a powerful AI before the console dies (Or at least, something suffers for the processing power required)... And it kinda goes on.

With regards simply to interactivity the number of physics items required - IIRC, if you went into a shop or building in Oblivion, every item on the shelves was physics enabled, so you could pick up each one, knock them over, etc etc. Cast a fireball and things would go flying. And that was 5 years ago. There's no reason a modern game couldn't do the same.

(Not saying Oblivion was an "immersive simulator", of course, just pointing out that detailed, non-static game environments are very much possible from a tech perspective.)

Iron and Copper
2nd Sep 2011, 09:49
I don't know what happened to the patch thread, did it get merged here?
Anyway, my gun keeps going off when i try click out of the loot and ebook screens. Its one thing if I have a silent pistol out and tons of ammo but when I had the shotgun out it totally screwed the pooch on me.
There is a lag issue here, picking up stuff and clicking on nodes in hack and the inventory screen definately needs tweaking.

Mjesko
2nd Sep 2011, 11:34
Whilst you are right, from a practical perspective I think re-balancing it will be far, far more difficult to get right then removing it altogether. Also, every time an 'alternate path' to an objective is 'incentivized' with XP, you encourage the player to look for it and reduce replay ability. If this were Oblivion, fine, that's all about leveling up, improving your stats in order to do more interesting things. In Deus Ex, we don't want the player seeing all the content on the first run just because they were farming XP, we want them to see new stuff every time they play. :)

And how much will it reduce the RPG aspect? All XP does is earn you Praxis points. The actual role-playing element in my view comes from choosing what skills to invest those Praxis points in. This would still be present if you removed XP and just directly awarded Praxis points for objectives/finding kits, so I don't think removing XP would really affect the role-playing all that much.

If they used the Praxis system in future, I would be perfectly happy if it was properly balanced. But a balanced XP system is a holy grail few ever reach, especially in any game that offers 'freedom'. Getting rid of it entirely would be much more manageable I think, and with very few negative impacts on the experience.

Yep, the game should give the player a praxis kit for every completed mission and additional praxis kits should be hidden in the levels. That was exactly the xp system in Invisible War and i think it was great.

The takedown-system should work like the system in Alpha Protocol: You can takedown enemies only from the side or behind if there is no alarm.

A simple improvement to the alarm system would be that the alert level is not reduced if it reaches red.

Cylion
2nd Sep 2011, 12:02
Can you guys just shut up???
I mean this is one great game, best game of 2011 for sure. They try to do there best and if you can do better just do it. The only thing i want in this game now is some DCL's.

Jel
2nd Sep 2011, 13:22
Can you guys just shut up???
I mean this is one great game, best game of 2011 for sure. They try to do there best and if you can do better just do it. The only thing i want in this game now is some DCL's.

No. Community reception and feedback and open communication between developers and players/fans is something that should always be done, I don't know if Eidos Montreal/DX:HR devs read this thread or these boards or post here, but feedback and suggestions and fan-feedback is something that can give developers an better idea what we want/expect. Oh I do think HR is good, this doesn't mean there isn't flaws or things that I thought were missing or things I think could have been done better, and I think it is very important to voice this things, ideas and concerns, in a way that is as detailed as possible, with good argumentation and in a well-detailed way. Just because the game is good, doesn't mean it should not be improved upon, and especially in terms of conscious design-choices where the players felt something did not work as well as it should have, or they felt that the game was good, even though certain thing bugged them, the thing or the design just needs to be mentioned and there needs to be ideas upon how to improve upon them and hope the developers hear, and that our concerns give them food for thought on HOW to improve.

In short: just because a game is generally enjoyable, but there are aspects x, y and z that bug me, I feel I'm obliged to point out those things, to voice my concerns to the developers, tell them that: "I let this slide by now, but I know the flaws are there and I will not let them slide again."


And on topic: Forgot a few things from my previous list:

Storytelling: I know cutscenes/cinematics are a staple and do have their place in modern gaming and I can't make them go away, but still, I think the way the cutscenes were used in quite a few places broke the flow of the game in HR, namely, the cutscenes before bossfights and meeting with Zhao, Jensen acted completely differently from how I had played him, I know that in storydriven games some railroading is a must - but on most of these occasions you could have let me play the situations in a few different ways, approach them in a few different ways, even if the end-situation is the same, the way I got to the end should be allowed to vary.

Sidequests: These I think should have some consequences relating to future sidequests, some to even main-storyline-quests, corporate warfare anyone? It is something that I can let slide once, but this should definately be improved upon.

And I'll expand upon my mention of the world reacting in a better way, spoilers ahead:
When Belltower attacked the Hotel where Van Bruggen was hiding, I didn't have any gun to give him, but I wanted to save him, so I went on my way to stun every belltower soldier in the complex, disabled every camera and turret and ran back to him to tell that I dealt with the situation, only, I cannot.
This kind of things, dealing with situations in different ways and the game being capable of reacting to it, is what future DX-titles need.

Poison_Berrie
2nd Sep 2011, 13:26
Can you guys just shut up???
I mean this is one great game, best game of 2011 for sure. They try to do there best and if you can do better just do it. The only thing i want in this game now is some DCL's.
It's a feedback thread. People aren't saying: "This game sucks!", they are saying: "I think this could have been better" or "This seems a bit unbalanced."

Cylion
2nd Sep 2011, 16:02
Well not all. I know what you guys mean but: Some guys are here just 2 say it sucks, i know it has problems but I dont like whem guys says this game sucks. After all I think that this forum has to be devited in more sub categorys.

anunnaki
2nd Sep 2011, 16:14
Can you guys just shut up???
I mean this is one great game, best game of 2011 for sure. They try to do there best and if you can do better just do it. The only thing i want in this game now is some DCL's.

Asking in such a rude manner wont get you anything. And that is an opinion, some of us waited years for this game and expected certain aspects to be better worked upon. After paying full price for the game we have every right to determine what its short comings are. Without people like us we would have ended up with another invisible war.

With that being said did anyone else like how they put credits all over pangea? even though it was the last level and there was nowere to spend them? I thought that was priceless. And how the snipers have laser sights until you take the gun for yourself. When you shoot the crossbow you can't take your arrow back which would have been nice considering a found about 5 in the game. And when you shoot someone with it you can't move there body, I found that out the hard way. No non lethal rounds for the shotgun, I get that maybe adding all ammo types like slugs, bags or bolts and standard buckshot would create a balance issue with the gun, but some use if it's diversity should have been used. Even assault rifles can be equipped with rubber rounds, surely in 2027 aswell. It's not really a complaint but just a hope a set aside a while ago, but I was hoping for some really creative augs and weapons such as a non leather version of the typhoon which sends micro waves, a gun you can shoot around corners, not only being able to cloak but make things that aren't there appear to be as a distraction, a hologram Adam if you will. Actual bot domination, radar and health regen as upgrades were also obvious choices IMO. Little deployable bots and thermal would have been nice too. The range on the smart vision was deplorable compared to todays thermal. Also an upgrade so smart vision can give info on NPCs and actually be smart like they showed in the trailer. There were alot of things I thought would be in the game but weren't and alot of things I named are already in existence today.

I also find that interesting, I don't know much about making games but it seems strange to me how a game made years ago "oblivion" can take about the same time to load as DXHR only it loads 500 times more stuff, if that. To me it seems on a technical level they are way behind with HR. It is same same engine they used to make tomb raider if I remember correctly.

Ashpolt
2nd Sep 2011, 16:26
Well not all. I know what you guys mean but: Some guys are here just 2 say it sucks, i know it has problems but I dont like whem guys says this game sucks. After all I think that this forum has to be devited in more sub categorys.

Please link me to where people are saying it sucks. I thought "maybe that's what people are saying on the first page of this thread, and he assumed that the whole forum was like that" - but no, I look on the first page and what do I see? "I love this game, but....", "it's an amazing game but...." "x, y and z should be improved, but it's still a fantastic game."

And even if people were saying the game sucked, as long as they were doing so in a constructive manner, what's the problem with that, beyond you not liking it? This is a discussion forum, and people are entitled to their opinions, even if they're not the same as yours. That's what discussion is about.

Redem
2nd Sep 2011, 16:36
About the enviroment not only do they feel a lot like copy of each other no matter were you are on the planet, you are in enviromment than DXI, not jarring so, they are still pretty good place in themselves, but its there

Detroit-decaying american city like New York

Heng sha- sprawing chinese city like Hong Kong (re-use the two level city idea from IW, however I'd admit it had a nice spin on it)

Montreal probably would have felt like Paris (it even has french speaker) had it been complete

Omega Ranch a bit like Venderberg (military type lab)

Panchea is the area 51 equivalent, the devasted HQ super-high tech lab of the mastermind (ok not exactly so) with the super computer

Hypevosa
2nd Sep 2011, 17:19
1. No forced 3rd person on ladders, during takedowns, in conversations, or during icarus falls. I don't need to watch Jensen's hair as he climbs a ladder. Punching someone in the face or backhanding 2 people is still awesome when its from your point of view (and it's much more personal that way). Talking to Wayne Haas and seeing his facial expressions - it all could have been that awesome. Looking down as you descend to earth in a cloud of yellow lightning would still look pretty damn cool.

2. When did Gravity become an absolute velocity and not an acceleration constant? The player's falling speed is kinda nuts, I don't care if you want to justify the existence of the icarus mod - it's just jarring to accidentally slip 10 feet and suddenly die for it because you reach terminal velocity before the explicative leaves your lips.

3. I would like people to try and defend themselves or get help and not cower, unable to do anything if you attack them. Where on earth are peoples' survival instinct? Why is everyone not toting a gun just going to sit down and let you shoot them?

4. I would have liked it for Jensen to not have such a cartoonishly raspy voice.

5. Not funneling me into specific points of an otherwise fairly open and complex map, just to show me a movie I could have played out myself, would have been nice. Really, it was disruptive.

6. I would like to stack grenades in at least small piles like I can stack other items - even just stacks of 2 would help alot.

7. Non-lethal weapons got just about 0 mods... that makes me very sad to have all these mods and yet I can't use them on my favorite guns. :(

8. No melee weapons? D: They were my favorites...

9. Why did Barrett fall over covered in blood and bullet holes when I pumped him full of electricity and anesthetics? I mean, a little more attention to detail would have been cool.

10. Why must Jensen snap their neck if her bursts through a wall and someone's on the other side? It would have been just as cool to break down the wall and then kick them unconscious in the face to across the room or something.

11. There was no reason to change the credit chits into credit chips :P

Mjesko
2nd Sep 2011, 19:38
The xp could look like this:

- Man down: 10 xp + 5 xp (headshot) + 10 xp (stun) + 10 xp (takedown): 10 - 30 xp instead of 10 - 50 xp
- Hacking: level x 10 xp instead of level x 25 xp
- Traveler: 50 xp instead of 100 xp
- Explorer: 150 xp instead of 300 xp
- Ghost: 250 xp instead of 500 xp

pha
2nd Sep 2011, 20:50
Or like this:

Gettting things done (i.e. mission progress): XP
Anything else: 0 XP

Ashpolt
2nd Sep 2011, 21:32
Or like this:

Gettting things done (i.e. mission progress): XP
Anything else: 0 XP

This. Double this. Multi this. Ultra this. M-m-m-monster this.

Any tiering of XP bonus by playstyle, no matter how small, will encourage a certain playstyle and therefore detract from the "play how you want" nature of the game.

Pinky_Powers
2nd Sep 2011, 22:58
Bosses should be killable with one or two headshots, or one rocket, as was seen in Deus Ex. Bosses should be more powerful than other enemies, but not unrealistically immune to damage. One of the best things about Deus Ex was that bosses could be killed quick and easy with the right weapons. This immediately made the whole thing feel less like a video game and more real, where the bosses were indeed people and not a tool for the computer to cheat with.
Nothing puts me more off a game than when the computer is clearly breaking the rules of the universe to beat me.

Where's the philosophizing? Not just Deus Ex, but cyberpunk in general is known for its philosophizing. You have the dogma angle covered, with weird old men spouting their rhetoric... but where have all the poets gone? Where are the less religious and more philosophical minds? The game doesn't need to be pretentious, but you could certainly use a few pretentious characters and texts in the game. As Ashpolt says, get us thinking about s**t, not just learning how the technology works.

Most everyone seems to agree that the energy issue is horrible. There's no real benefit to upgrading your energy pips when only the first one regenerates. I too spent nearly the whole game with only one pip full. I stocked up on energy bars for those rare moments when I really needed more power, but for the most part the whole concept of the pips felt useless.
Maybe if upgrading them added an additional recharging pip along with that spare you could refill with protein bars... that might give us a reason to care.

By the end of the game I had more Praxis points than I knew what to do with. I unlocked the Typhoon, the double takedown, dermal plating, and many more. This was for my stealth character goddamn it! I had upgraded everything I needed for stealth and hacking, and just ended up spending superfluously afterward.

You have such great characterization in so many of the important and unimportant NPCs in the game, but the Tyrants, possibly the coolest of all the characters, barely even exist, they're so paper-thin. But of course we know they are not from the Icarus Effect novel. So why no emails or journals, no privet quarters or personal moments? You were sitting on a deep well of potential material, material that would have held a great weight of meaning to the player who took the time to uncover it, but you barely even sniffed at it.
The missed opportunity here is simply staggering to behold.

The computer lady at the end of the game... awesome! I wanted to know so much more! Would have loved to read up on that whole thing (not so much the tech side, but the philosophy of it), and learn more about the woman they chose to slave the machine to.
Maybe there's room for that in Human Revolution 2? :D

Anyway, that's it for now. I may think of more later, but those are the most pressing issues I have.

Great game EM! :thumb:

-~::Edit::~-
We knew about this years before release, but I'm certainly going to repeat it again: Melee weapons? Takedowns are not a substitute for melee weapons! I loved the takedowns. Would have been better in first-person, but they were great nonetheless. But no melee weapons is still unforgivable. We told you this was the case a long time ago, and playing the final game in all its glory has not changed our minds. This was foolish and hurtful and wrong. Bring back Melee weapons ffs!

-~::Edit2::~-
The AI is really quite poor all said and done. I understand that AI for a game like this is much harder to write for than other games, but it's not nearly good enough. I could list all the ways it needs to be better, but it's much easier to just get right down to it and say this: The AI in Human Revolution needs improvement in EVERY WAY. Every facet of it needs addressing and expanding. Start there.
Enemy, civilian... all of it is rather bad. Half the time civilians don't even react when I pull a gun on them. In Hengsha, I found that same NPC we saw in the GameCom footage, and like the play tester did, I pulled my gun on him, and he DIDN'T REACT! I felt betrayed and angry so I shot him in the face. But that was misplaced anger. Really, I wanted to shoot you guys, EM.
As a company, you must learn to take AI more seriously if you wish to stand out. If you wish grow and produce better and better games, this is an important issue.

-~::Edit3::~-
Human Revolution reacts to the player's actions in interesting and sometimes subtle ways, but other times it completely fails to acknowledge major bedlam conducted by your hand.
I saved the hostages from the evil gas in the Sarif facility, but then I stabbed Mr. Thorpe in the heart... right in front of all the surviving hostages. None of them reacted, but worse still, the game didn't understand. It updated my mission journal to conclude that all the hostages died in the gas. And the game pretended that was true.
I'm really pleased with how reactive Human Revolution is, but I can't help but hope for a much deeper experience next time around. You guys can do better. I know it! :thumb:


Any tiering of XP bonus by playstyle, no matter how small, will encourage a certain playstyle and therefore detract from the "play how you want" nature of the game.

For people like you. For folk like me, who are not driven by the compulsions for XP, we had no trouble changing it up, or using a password if we had it, or even a Hacking device. I never felt pulled one way or the other due to the XP rewards. I knew I was making enough to be getting on with, no matter what I did.

pha
2nd Sep 2011, 23:24
Bosses should be killable with one or two headshots, or one rocket, as was seen in Deus Ex. Bosses should be more powerful than other enemies, but not unrealistically immune to damage. One of the best things about Deus Ex was that bosses could be killed quick and easy with the right weapons. This immediately made the whole thing feel less like a video game and more real, where the bosses were indeed people and not a tool for the computer to cheat with.
Nothing puts me more off a game than when the computer is clearly breaking the rules of the universe to beat me.


One of many reasons the boss fights in DX:HR feel superfluous.

Pinky_Powers
2nd Sep 2011, 23:45
One of many reasons the boss fights in DX:HR feel superfluous.

Not superfluous, but unimportant. The event is unimportant. But the consequences are realistic. Once they're gone, they're gone. They're no longer in the world scheming or doing evil. They deceive, inveigle and obfuscate no more.

Getting to them is the hard part. Killing 'em? Not so much.

I like this. It feels right.

Knightshade
3rd Sep 2011, 00:05
By the end of the game I had more Praxis points than I knew what to do with. I unlocked the Typhoon, the double takedown, dermal plating, and many more. This was for my stealth character goddamn it! I had upgraded everything I needed for stealth and hacking, and just ended up spending superfluously afterward.

This was the main gripe for me. I spent time really judging where to put my praxis points, at the start of the game (much like when starting up the original DX), but then i had more than I wanted towards the end. Unlike you, I took a mixed approach, bordering more hostile. I maxed out typhoon, steady aiming, double takedown, dermal plating, inventory capacity (held a Revolver, Silenced Sniper, Heavy Rifle, Shotgun, Grenade Launcher and a Laser Rifle which I didn't even use), and hacking levels. I was wasting the praxis points on things I didn't need after that. I also wanted to waste the money I didn't need, so I bought praxis kits because even on a lethal run I found the game littered with ammo, so no need to spend money there. If anything, I was selling extra ammo and guns... Ok, so I had the 10,000 credit pre order bonus, but even without buying the 2 praxis kits with that, the game still seemed far too generous with the points.

I also would have liked a melee weapon... Could have been a coat stand, walking frame or a sack of potatoes for all I care, but I would have liked something.

I would have expected more fleshing out for Barret and Federova. We saw a lot of them in the trailers, then in the game we catch one or two glimpses before we get to kill them. Going by how they were pretty much 'advertised' in the trailers I would have expected them to have had a chance to interact with Adam in a way that intensfied the story for when you met them another time, something that gave Adam another personal reason to pursue them rather than just the events in the introduction. Perhaps that was all they were meant to be and I'm reading into it... but for the time we saw them both in the trailers, their appearences in-game seemed a bit short, with their departures being premature IMO.

Beyond that I would just be further repeating with the lack of philosophising, and such, so I'll leave it there. With those being my only real complaints, DX:HR has very quickly become my favourite game in a very long while, and I'm glad to have taken the time to explore and enjoy my first run. Seriously, I didn't notice the 'hours' slip by at times just simply exploring the hubs and dealing with side quests.

Very good game, indeed

pha
3rd Sep 2011, 00:13
Not superfluous, but unimportant. The event is unimportant. But the consequences are realistic. Once they're gone, they're gone. They're no longer in the world scheming or doing evil. They deceive, inveigle and obfuscate no more.

Getting to them is the hard part. Killing 'em? Not so much.

I like this. It feels right.

See, I would still love an option to avoid the bosses with subtlety, to spare them after wounding them, or to "convert" them via social battles. If implemented properly, these could have realistic and long term consequences too.

For a moment, I was really excited when Eliza asked Adam if he would save the fatally wounded Federova. I didn't read the book so I don't know her deal or motives, but IF it was possible to save and convert her there, she could be a powerful asset, maybe even have her own action scene and assist you somewhere, like when Faridah helps with some tangos after you save her life. Or let's consider Namir, Adam's "killer". You could spare him to make a point that every life is worth saving, like when Roy Batty saves Deckard.

Pinky_Powers
3rd Sep 2011, 00:32
See, I would still love an option to avoid the bosses with subtlety, to spare them after wounding them, or to "convert" them via social battles. If implemented properly, these could have realistic and long term consequences too.

For a moment, I was really excited when Eliza asked Adam if he would save the fatally wounded Federova. I didn't read the book so I don't know her deal or motives, but IF it was possible to save and convert her there, she could be a powerful asset, maybe even have her own action scene and assist you somewhere, like when Faridah helps with some tangos after you save her life. Or let's consider Namir, Adam's "killer". You could spare him to make a point that every life is worth saving, like when Roy Batty saves Deckard.

Oh yes! That kind of thing would be bloody wonderful for a DX game. I absolutely agree.

Every aspect of the Tyrants in this game are a monstrous cop-out of what "could have been". They could have done so much with 'em. :hmm:

Rainbow6Team
3rd Sep 2011, 01:58
This game needs more interacting with more objects,like picking up a planet or bucket and tossing it.

Locutus of BORG
3rd Sep 2011, 03:35
DEHR is my first honest go at the DE franchise, so I will likely post here a few times as things come to my mind.

- I agree with what ppl have been saying about the game's boss fights. They're a pretty awkward fit in this game and with the exception of the last boss they're too straightforward. The straight-up beatfest that is the first 3 boss fights seem to get progressively easier as Jensen gets stronger! Anyway, I think the best way to improve this isn't necessarily to make the bosses harder themselves, but to add more ways to deal with them, including ways to avoid direct confrontations with them (eg: like the airplane fight in the original DE that could be avoided by mining the boss' entry point). Also, when push comes to shove, it'd be nice not always having to fight bosses in such obvious 'arena' rooms, and having to deal with them in the regular game environment (more or less like in the original).

- Also, the way some of DEHR's weapons are setup is weird.. like how the game's pistols are better vs armor than the Combat Rifle; how the SMG and CR fill the same niche; how non-lethal guns are crazy powerful against heavy armored enemies; etc. I understand that pistols need to be relevant in this game, but the SMG and CR should fill different niches - the CR could possibly use a little more armor penetration, but the SMG needs to be something obstensibly different than a weaker CR.

- A small stash of some sort for Jenson to take around to each hub would be nice - just so players have some good way to lug around rare items like upgrade boxes and the odd special weapon would be nice. Something big enough to work but small enough not to render inv. restrictions totally moot. It could take the form of a supply pod or something that'd stay at the initial helipad at the beginning of each episode.

- It'd be nice if consumables could be used directly from the quick inventory bar instead of having to be selected and then used. This just a small want on my part, but I think it could make that bit of gameplay smoother.

Rayburn
3rd Sep 2011, 04:30
The biggest void i felt with DX:HR was the lack of interesting characters..in the original they were so prominent in..you have Navarre, Gunther, Paul Denton, Tracer Tong..figures who would sporadically pop up unexpected..they helped so much to pull you into the storyline and the game..even a deuteragonist like Alex Vance, forever alone, would be a big help..it just makes the game world more three-dimensional and a much better place worth fighting for..:o

Pinky_Powers
3rd Sep 2011, 05:20
It'd be nice if consumables could be used directly from the quick inventory bar instead of having to be selected and then used. This just a small want on my part, but I think it could make that bit of gameplay smoother.

Consumables can be used directly from the Quick List bar. On the PC version hitting the 5 key will cause Adam to eat an energy bar. I think 4 is a pack of bars.

I have to ask... "DEHR is my first honest go at the DE franchise." If this is true, explain how you're so familiar with Deus Ex that you can reference so many aspects of it.

subtlesnake
3rd Sep 2011, 11:12
With regards simply to interactivity the number of physics items required - IIRC, if you went into a shop or building in Oblivion, every item on the shelves was physics enabled, so you could pick up each one, knock them over, etc etc. Cast a fireball and things would go flying. And that was 5 years ago. There's no reason a modern game couldn't do the same.

(Not saying Oblivion was an "immersive simulator", of course, just pointing out that detailed, non-static game environments are very much possible from a tech perspective.)
I think HR has many more physics objects on screen at once, though. I'm sure it would be a simple switch to make everything in the world interactive, but performance would suffer on the consoles.

bucyrus5000
3rd Sep 2011, 12:09
Consumables can be used directly from the Quick List bar. On the PC version hitting the 5 key will cause Adam to eat an energy bar. I think 4 is a pack of bars.

I have to ask... "DEHR is my first honest go at the DE franchise." If this is true, explain how you're so familiar with Deus Ex that you can reference so many aspects of it.

On PC we can choose any quick bar slot to put energy or health stuff. energy bars can stack to 5.

Really an issue I have with the consumables is they come in different varieties, but can easily be wasted or forgotten by game mechanics. The jar takes up 4 inventory slots and can't be stacked, also we have to burn through a whole jar if it is used, even if we don't need 3 cells filled. If we have a variety of energy consumables, we have to put the each into a separate quick bar slot to use them in immersive combat. What I'd rather is if I could assign a quick bar slot to energy and another slot to health such that the game will use whatever energy or health consumable I have in inventory, and use them to fill (without wasting) only the empty reserves.

:-D
3rd Sep 2011, 12:27
There's no real AI to speak of. If I'm spotted, and backpedal, then head around a corner, I am not followed there. It seems the routines for these AI are not nearly rigorous enough. In fact, I would go as far as to say that the routines employed are quite poor. I expect innovation, not regurgitation.

jc.denton
3rd Sep 2011, 13:07
the improvements that could have been implemented in my opinion. It was a missed oppotunity not too include a stats page :ie: time played . mission completion times. most used augs. favorite weapon or .aug and so on.

i know it took me about 7days 3 to 6 hours aday to finish but wouldve liked that record ingame. Also there seemed to be no weapon menu showing you what upgrades you had on youre weapons apart from the visual image. therefore leaving you unsure if it was ok to drop a weapon or was it upgraded so you wanted to keep it.

Another menu option i wouldve liked to see would be a movie viewer. to review the cut scenes at leisure this menu obviously only available after first playthru or game completion.

Soldiers enemy ai improved so they will reactivate cameras and bots if they see deactivation while passing on there route. or another option that the bot and camera deactivations are on run down timers like the hacks so that you have limited time to bypass them or disable destroy them. thus making the level area even more random and skillful to play.

And last final menu option to turn off the hud alltogether including the gun reticle. and plus option to switch 1st and 3rd person cameras at leisure. as i would have liked the option to play in full 3rd person cam as well.

MonkeyLungs
3rd Sep 2011, 13:09
There's no real AI to speak of. If I'm spotted, and backpedal, then head around a corner, I am not followed there. It seems the routines for these AI are not nearly rigorous enough. In fact, I would go as far as to say that the routines employed are quite poor. I expect innovation, not regurgitation.

Yes the guards are very dumb.

Also: The routes need to be randomized and not exactly the same across playthroughs. Once you have played a couple of times the guards are even more predictable because the patterns don't change.

Dr_Bob
3rd Sep 2011, 17:59
Watch this cutscene:

VNwqzdqT9Yg

While I think this is the coolest cutscene in the game, I just thought about what this would be like if it was not a cutscene at all. Instead, it could be a completely first-person experience, not breaking the immersion by making you watch a cutscene - you are the one being propelled into the skies and space and coming to an abrupt stop.

I think the game could've done without cutscenes, save for the intro and outro.

JCpies
3rd Sep 2011, 18:45
While I think this is the coolest cutscene in the game, I just thought about what this would be like if it was not a cutscene at all. Instead, it could be a completely first-person experience, not breaking the immersion by making you watch a cutscene - you are the one being propelled into the skies and space and coming to an abrupt stop.

This is how I feel about some of the cutscenes too.

I hate to admit it, but if there's only one thing that Call of Duty does right, is that it doesn't do cutscenes (well, at least not out of body ones)

BlackFox
3rd Sep 2011, 18:56
I want the trailer quality CGI cutscenes back not these compressed fugly looking ones, in game would have been better.

That is all.

Doom972
3rd Sep 2011, 21:13
I think cutscenes are very much un-Deus Ex like. But if they really needed to have them, why not make them in-game instead of pre-rendered video? It would've looked better (since these aren't HD), less immersion breaking, and perhaps would've allowed for really impressive outro cutscenes instead of stock footage which might as well had "WE USED UP ALL OUR CUTSCENE BUDGET" written all over it.

Asklepios
3rd Sep 2011, 21:57
I thought that the safe/storage behind the big screen in Adams appartment was really a cool idea. On the other hand I was really disappointed that you cant leave things in there. If you drop your items, they are just in front of the safe on the ground. Really sad. Making use of it more often would have been cool!

Oh and by the way (what many people in Europe say): Please make the original ENGLISH voice overs available as a free DLC in Europe. Lionhead did so with Fable 2 and it was a great move.

And some minor touches: It's okay that decorative items repeat themself in non-relevant places, but come on: How many people have a Bachelor degree in Criminal Justice from the Phoenix University in their room - Adam and David Sarif and many more?!? At least for these two you could have come up with something else :)

P4NCH0theD0G
3rd Sep 2011, 22:01
Double Takedowns on two sitting enemies.

Double Takedowns on one standing and one sitting enemy.

Those don't work. If both sit you can't do any takedown, if one sits you can only do a single takedown.

lhaymehr
3rd Sep 2011, 23:09
My 2 cents, PC:

* The hold jump key to move along cover is dragging action to a crawl.

* Remove the 0.x multiplier from mouse which activates when sprinting. Don't hardcode this stuff, at least provide a registry value.

* Display some stats after a mission. The game is great, but it lacks a lot of depth in some aspects.

* 75% of augmentations are useless. At about middle of the game I had about 7 or so praxis waiting to be used and I had no incentive to plug them anywhere. You could have kept the stats.

* Do NOT put something so essential to this type of game such as Silenced Sniper Rifle as a pre-order exclusive. This one really made me rage and hate marketing with a passion again.

* The scrollbars... If there's one thing that shows the amount of effort that goes into making a decent PC port it's the funken scrollbars. And they're broken. Also, just because it has mouse and keyboard support doesn't mean I HAVE to click on stuff. The menus need to be more contextual. Tab, Escape, Enter. DX had accelerators for crying out loud..

* Be more inventive with boss fights, if you really have to have them.

* The voice actor for 3rd boss is atrocious. I heard him before in other games and he needs to switch careers.

* It's 2011 and your engine can't do mirrors. Or anti-aliasing TBH. Deferred shading FTL. Son, I am disappoint.

* Allow me to shoot Taggart or at least knock him the F OUT!

* Where's the blood?

* Do I really have to enter buildings exclusively via fire escapes?

* 4 buttons in a room?

* EMails in French. Why not in Arabic, Greek, some Cyrilic variant or Jidish. I'd equally not understand them.

I loved the story and visuals, but there's a LOT of room for improvement.

MightySavagE
4th Sep 2011, 00:28
Yea I enjoyed the whole lot of this game but still, things could have been better. THe graphics are obvious (damn low-res npc textures and poor facial animations). THe thing that most struck me were the endings.


On endings
I was literally sitting 15 minutes there, thinking what I should choose. Do I side with my boss? Or should I forgot about the 'augmented' future and side with Taggart? Or maybe screw it all and blow myself? Maybe reveal all to the public and let them decide (which seemed kinda far fetched, as the illuminati was still very much present in the game's world). I finally chose the sarif ending end felt something like this "oh, so this is all? Thought this would be moar harsh, there will be some unpleasant repercussions." But no - all the endings just wonder about how things can be.

As someone stated - it would be good to take a stroll in detroit for the last time and listen to what people say, what's in the news. Or at least were given a meaningful animation. FOr me the endings were the weakest part of the game, so was panchea level. The zombies were kind of a cool idea, but they were way too easy to kill. They should deal more damage, act moar organic. Insted you just stand on a box and unleash the minigun youre given for this special occasion.


On XP and bosses

I didnt mind the stealth XP boost most of the time. Or the hacking. Why?


Maybe because I am not an XP Whore.

As many of you mentioned, one can afford most of the augs without much trouble. You just need to look around and explore different paths. Since hidden paths give you obvious tactical advantage over the normal ones, you normally tend to use them, thus gain some additional XP naturally. But even without that, you have to mind, that situation, as in real life, can change drastically. So you keep a bigger gun and a grenade or two, just in case. It was even clearly stated many times, that there WILL BE INEVITABLE boss encounters. And the idea of social battles with barret or namir is plain stupid. Dont you get they really want to kill you and do it before you can say "Jensen"? They would gain nothing in keeping jensen alive as he is digging up their friggin secrets and undermining operation. Why would they have him alive? Dumb and pointless.

We already have social boss battles. Like the one with zeke. Or Taggart. I dont see me conversing the same way with "pure-evil" Barrett. He has an order to kill me, but he suddenly stops, because Jensen tells him 'lets talk'? As I mentioned - real dumb and unrealistic.

The only thing I have against the boss battles, is that the bosses themselves are too strong. They should be more vulnerable, but SMARTER additionally. You can very easily spam them with grenades or typhoon as for now.

One player stated before, that he could get past the 3rd boss, because he wasnt properly equipped - what the hell man? You encountered Barrett so you KNEW that there ARE some hardcore boss battles. I was really poorly equipped with nades and other explosives when encountering barret myself, which made the fight quite difficult. But I learned from that and I was always keeping a handful of emps and frags, plus some health boosters. All this made short work of all the robots and bosses. Just learn your game, pal.


On gameplay:

- The bad AI was stated before, but I really need to bring the fact, that in in DX1 the AI was GOD AWFUL. So most of you, hardcore dx fans, should appreciate HOW GOOD the AI now is. ;D But being serious - the guards are to easily to sneak upon, but in the same time, aim real good. So it creates another disproportion in the stealth vs combat comparison (the other being XP of course). But this didnt bother me that much.


- NO BADASS "ROUNDHOUSE" REVOLVER PULL OUT ANIMATION . (Not sure how do you call it in english, so I wrote "roundhouse" - I think you get the idea - wild west style pull out). Damn this would make oneshot insta headshots totally bad ass. Like in counter-strike :>

- no silenced sniper rifle, besides the one with pre-order. Really stupid.

- An assault rifle deals less damage than a usual pistol. Come on...

- no mode of fire selector

- no scope mods for weapons. Was really counting on a badass assault rifle with red ACOG. Or red dot at least.

- no melee weapons. I want the sword back :(

- DAMN. LITTLE. AMMO. A gourd can shoot you forever, but when you pick his weapon it has like literally a couple of rounds. And there are no spare magazines on him.

- no random events in the cities. Like thugs attacking you, or mugging someone. But thats a minor issue - I guess DX isnt GTA or Red Dead ;)


On the plot
In terms of a plot, I was really hoping to see more about megan. The cut-scene in the white room was the best in the game, with definitely the best voice acting. But after that she only told you to go to panchea and that was all. I was hoping to hear more from malik as well (as I saved her). Maybe we will interact with them moar in the DLC? It's set right before panchea so I find it plausible.

About Picus - the people are bothered about all the augmentation thing, but ARENT THEY WORRIED about the one and only news corporation (Picus), that could be manipulating them all the time (and of course is). THe governments are concerned about augmentation research and market but a global news monopolist is perfectly fine. WHAT THE HELL?


Perhaps the greatest drawback:
- the whole gameplay to people who like to be uberstealthy or uberviolent and behave vastly different from Jensen in conversations. I almost got all the achievements for the "right" decisions in the game. So it means I tread the Jensens path. I was having a BLAST because Jensen's character fit my own personality (well, mostly) so was his apparent style of sorting things - stealthy, but at the same time open for direct approach. I can imagine some people may have some issues.

xaliqen
4th Sep 2011, 02:16
Remove boss fights entirely. Seriously, I'm at the third boss and am going to stop playing the game semi-permanently at this point. I may pick it back up if this issue is fixed.

It's too bad. Deus Ex: Human Revolution has to be the most fun I've had in a video game in years combined with the least fun I've had in a video game ever. I can sum up the problem in two words: boss fights.

To put it bluntly, bosses break this game. When I'm fighting these bosses I'm not having fun and, therefore, I'm no longer playing a game during these segments. Sure, I could play it over and over or backtrack, but, hey, my time is more valuable than that. Nothing is worse than playing such a great game and singular achievement in the genre only to be completely brought out of the experience by boss fights that waste my time and insult my role-playing decisions.

Rockn-Roll
4th Sep 2011, 02:34
I would allow the player to opt-out of the boss battles. There is nothing more aggrivating than filling the same body with bullets and not see anything happen...there should be limbs flying off those bosses when I've emptied a clip into their bodies. I use up at least 200 rounds on my assault rifle and about 150 on my machine pistol, plus other damage such as EMF and Concussion grenades I throw at them...but they don't seem to be slowed down at all. Then suddenly without any warning they just up and die.

At least let us see how much damage we are doing so we can decide whether it's worth continuing or not. My first time through I had to drop from Deus Ex difficulty to easy just to finish a boss...and I'm not even sure that did any good. The typical enemies that we face are fairly easy even on Deus Ex...at least when using a mouse & keyboard...perhaps it's hard with controller. I suppose bosses are easier with controllers because with auto aim all the shots count...with mouse & keyboard I think about 50% find their mark on some of the faster bosses.

Deus Ex is completely and utterly Linear when it comes to Bosses...there's no way out. Yeah...after playing through I learned that I need to purchase dermal armor with electricity protection before the first boss...then I can destroy the power nodes without getting hurt by them, but then all the enemies after that point will be way too easy to beat...so I take on the entire city and waste them all just for a slight challenge, but then I'm left with streets littered with bodies and nobody ever comes by to pick them up. For the second boss I can get the increased sprint both in speed and endurance, but then it's total overkill for every moment after...a one time necessity which consumes Praxis which could be used for augments which are more useful all the time like hacking or cloak.

RedLED
4th Sep 2011, 02:47
The routes need to be randomized and not exactly the same across playthroughs. Once you have played a couple of times the guards are even more predictable because the patterns don't change.
Tenchu 1 european version made that.

There was 3 pattern per level, you never knew what patern you will cross. After finnishing the game, you could restart a level choosing the pattern or left it random.

The random paterns really add something to the game : less stealth confidence.

unbeatableDX
4th Sep 2011, 04:21
please remember to be polite with your requests. you wont get nothing by being rude.

Taurondir
4th Sep 2011, 04:22
Regarding people saying the AI is stupid:

No offence meant, but that's a side effect of the fact that its a "game". If the AI behaved realistically, the player would be dead real fast, let me explain it from the side of the bad guys:

You are waiting for the good guy to arrive any minute (some levels are like this), so the moment you hear a sound, or in fact, see someone drop, you'd press a button on your radio, alarms would go off, and at least half of the place would come to your GPS position with dogs/sensors/bots/aug vision etc. But forget THAT level of response for a sec.

It would make sense for a game to allow diffuculty levels AND AI levels so that a player could find a challenging balance, but that would probably require far too much playtesting to make sure it dosnt screw up in other places ... in short, what I guess they did to DE:HR is kept the AI predictable so that you can meta-game it.

After all, if a room had a vent with only two exits and you see the player hiding in it, the only response is 3 guns aimed at one vent exit, 3 at the other, and just roll in granades until you run out of granades, wouldnt it, but that dosn't make it as "fun" to play.

unbeatableDX
4th Sep 2011, 04:26
Regarding people saying the AI is stupid:

No offence meant, but that's a side effect of the fact that its a "game". If the AI behaved realistically, the player would be dead real fast, let me explain it from the side of the bad guys:

You are waiting for the good guy to arrive any minute (some levels are like this), so the moment you hear a sound, or in fact, see someone drop, you'd press a button on your radio, alarms would go off, and at least half of the place would come to your GPS position with dogs/sensors/bots/aug vision etc. But forget THAT level of response for a sec.

It would make sense for a game to allow diffuculty levels AND AI levels so that a player could find a challenging balance, but that would probably require far too much playtesting to make sure it dosnt screw up in other places ... in short, what I guess they did to DE:HR is kept the AI predictable so that you can meta-game it.

After all, if a room had a vent with only two exits and you see the player hiding in it, the only response is 3 guns aimed at one vent exit, 3 at the other, and just roll in granades until you run out of granades, wouldnt it, but that dosn't make it as "fun" to play.

also the AI has stealth and combat forms, which must be hard work. anyway the AI is ten times better than dx1 so people should just be happy with the AI

Taurondir
4th Sep 2011, 04:34
If I had to add anything to DE:HR it would be mini-challenges, and technically, these could be done RIGHT NOW in the form of custom save games.

For example, pick a map/encounter with a decent fight in it, challenge one is to resolve it with zero augs and a one chosen weapon from say a pool of few, or by pure stealth (no alarms or being spotted), or with no injuries and full elimination of bad guys, or purely via melee, or on a timer etc etc etc.

Imagine if you could paste a text string into a window from the net, and that string generated a save game giving it starting map, a set points in augs, weapons and ammo, and an objective. People could send or even paste mini-missions in forums to each other, then play them and compare/brag/youtube the results. To me that would be hell fun, especially if in future more areas get added, or DLC's or even actual options to use game resources more directly to create more mini-missions - and god forbid - two player Co-Op options. Think Modern Warfare 2 Spec Ops missions, as to me, those were more fun then all other aspects of MW2 (I actually gifted a copy on Steam to a friend just to replay those)

I think this would be really cool - and for the record, Ive been hunting around on the net, and with a mod allowing to set praxis points and jump to any maps, you can practically do this already, but would be more fun it was streamlined so people dont have to take half an hour to set it up by hand.

LaMort13
4th Sep 2011, 04:55
Tenchu 1 european version made that.

There was 3 pattern per level, you never knew what patern you will cross. After finnishing the game, you could restart a level choosing the pattern or left it random.

The random paterns really add something to the game : less stealth confidence.

This.

The Tenchu series is an awesome one, and definitely one of my favorites. Changing item placement and guard routes would go a long way to making the "sneaking" more difficult. If nothing else, randomize the enemy placement like in Splinter Cell: Conviction. At least then you wouldn't have to rewrite routes or AI.

MightySavagE
4th Sep 2011, 09:00
I would allow the player to opt-out of the boss battles. There is nothing more aggrivating than filling the same body with bullets and not see anything happen...there should be limbs flying off those bosses when I've emptied a clip into their bodies. I use up at least 200 rounds on my assault rifle and about 150 on my machine pistol, plus other damage such as EMF and Concussion grenades I throw at them...but they don't seem to be slowed down at all. Then suddenly without any warning they just up and die.

At least let us see how much damage we are doing so we can decide whether it's worth continuing or not. My first time through I had to drop from Deus Ex difficulty to easy just to finish a boss...and I'm not even sure that did any good. The typical enemies that we face are fairly easy even on Deus Ex...at least when using a mouse & keyboard...perhaps it's hard with controller. I suppose bosses are easier with controllers because with auto aim all the shots count...with mouse & keyboard I think about 50% find their mark on some of the faster bosses.

Deus Ex is completely and utterly Linear when it comes to Bosses...there's no way out. Yeah...after playing through I learned that I need to purchase dermal armor with electricity protection before the first boss...then I can destroy the power nodes without getting hurt by them, but then all the enemies after that point will be way too easy to beat...so I take on the entire city and waste them all just for a slight challenge, but then I'm left with streets littered with bodies and nobody ever comes by to pick them up. For the second boss I can get the increased sprint both in speed and endurance, but then it's total overkill for every moment after...a one time necessity which consumes Praxis which could be used for augments which are more useful all the time like hacking or cloak.

As I mentioned - learn your game pal. I got only one dermal aug for Barret and managed to kill him without getting hurt. I just threw emp at him then two nades, then repeated the process and finished him off with a well placed carbine burst. Simple as that. You should have prepare urself for Namir. I did. I prevailed. You didnt. You died. Welcome to the real world.







If I had to add anything to DE:HR it would be mini-challenges, and technically, these could be done RIGHT NOW in the form of custom save games.

For example, pick a map/encounter with a decent fight in it, challenge one is to resolve it with zero augs and a one chosen weapon from say a pool of few, or by pure stealth (no alarms or being spotted), or with no injuries and full elimination of bad guys, or purely via melee, or on a timer etc etc etc.

Imagine if you could paste a text string into a window from the net, and that string generated a save game giving it starting map, a set points in augs, weapons and ammo, and an objective. People could send or even paste mini-missions in forums to each other, then play them and compare/brag/youtube the results. To me that would be hell fun, especially if in future more areas get added, or DLC's or even actual options to use game resources more directly to create more mini-missions - and god forbid - two player Co-Op options. Think Modern Warfare 2 Spec Ops missions, as to me, those were more fun then all other aspects of MW2 (I actually gifted a copy on Steam to a friend just to replay those)

I think this would be really cool - and for the record, Ive been hunting around on the net, and with a mod allowing to set praxis points and jump to any maps, you can practically do this already, but would be more fun it was streamlined so people dont have to take half an hour to set it up by hand.


I concur, this could be great.

But AI could have ben easily improved by making them hear takedowns which are as far as two meters ;D Plus, the game director said 7 days ago that he isnt satisfied with the AI and they could have done it better somehow.

Jel
4th Sep 2011, 09:58
I think cutscenes are very much un-Deus Ex like. But if they really needed to have them, why not make them in-game instead of pre-rendered video? It would've looked better (since these aren't HD), less immersion breaking, and perhaps would've allowed for really impressive outro cutscenes instead of stock footage which might as well had "WE USED UP ALL OUR CUTSCENE BUDGET" written all over it.


I have to agree with this statement to some extent, cutscenes/cinematics and every other things just are somethign that "modern games" apparently have to do, and I doubt we can do nothing about it, but at the same time, I have to say, that there are ways to do cutscenes "right" and doing them "wrong" and the difference isn't very clear, you can even do pre-rendered cutscenes "right" IMO on certain points, let me give a few examples from HR of each type of cutscenes.

The good

The opening-cinematic: Well, we can argue if it would have been better if it wasn't pre-rendered or not, but I thought it worked rather nicely even as pre-rendered, but look closer at what kind of cinematic this is? This is a cinematic where information is conveyed straight to the PLAYER, without the player-character being a part of it. This kind of cinematics generally fall into the "these work"-category.

Nearing Hengsha: Yet again, a pre-rendered cutscene, and what does it do? It showcases an certain area and conveys information straight to the player about the coming environment, yet again, works, and I would even claim that this kind of cutscenes work better as pre-rendered, especially if the cutscenes would be of the HD-quality.

The Ugly

Jensen inserting the biochip to his computer or Jensens discussion with Sarif at his apartment. Both were pre-rendered, and I will argue that these would have been vastly improved by not being pre-rendered. But look at what kind of cutscenes these are? What do they do? Well, as usual, they advance the plot, they mark more or less important events and they convey the player-character and through that the player information. Deus Ex-games are at least to a point, storydriven games, so some railroading has to happen, and both of these cinematics do just that, and there is a in-game, in-character reason for Jensen to behave like this, he is completing his objective and he has to, within the context of the game, trusts Sarif.

The Bad

This is where the distinction is small, look at the cutscenes before and after the bosses or in Zhaos penthouse.
I will, yet again argue that these would have been improved by not being pre-rendered. But why are these in the category "Bad"? While these too advance the story, and convey information, The way they portray Jensen, the player-character is outright horrifying. He is completing his objective, but he is doing so without any consideration to how I have been playing him, he stumbles into Zhaos penthouse without being cloaked and sneaky, being surprisingly trusting. He stumbles into the hall where the Barret-fight happens without bothering to look around. And after-boss-cutscenes, even if I have stun-gunned the bosses, they are full of bulletholes, the cutscenes outright contradict what the player has done and how he has played Jensen.


TL;DR:

The cutscenes have their places, but they have to be used right.
Showcasing very important moments or places where information is only given to the player, no problem with these being pre-rendered.

Cutscenes that advance the story and information is given both to the player and player-character: These shouldn't be pre-rendered, and should only be used when the situation so demands and should never contradict the way the player has been playing his character, the PC should only show characteristics that he has been established to have and the player has no control over.

And cutscenes where the player-character is forced to do something that might go against his character, as established by the player through gameplay, are no-go. Or cutscenes that contradicts what actually happened during gameplay. These should never happen.

Edit: And a mention about those cinematic 3rd-person conversations, I know there are people who are going to disagree with me on this one, because of how they break immersion and every other thing, but well, honestly, I never found that to be the case, so I can approve of these to some extent, because as I see it, they too have their place, they can be used to create a bond between the player and player-character and they CAN be used to establish the PC:s place withing the context of the game-world, and this is how they should be used, and I honestly think that Human Revolution did a good job with that most of the time.

JCpies
4th Sep 2011, 10:40
Allow turrets to be brought into boss fights, it's an idea that not everyone will think of and it makes the game unique, as well as aiding the boss battles and making them more tactical.

Doom972
4th Sep 2011, 11:02
Allow turrets to be brought into boss fights, it's an idea that not everyone will think of and it makes the game unique, as well as aiding the boss battles and making them more tactical.

You should play as an engineer in Team Fortress 2 if oyu haven't already.
On topic: Carrying the turrets is awesome for a hacker character. Too bad I discovered it too late in my hacker playthrough.
It should definitely be possible to bring it to boss battles. It makes much more sense than taking a weapon you never used and bring it with you for a fight you aren't supposed to know is coming.

JCpies
4th Sep 2011, 11:12
When you take a turret into the Namir fight, you get your hopes up, then it just disappears. Very un-DeusEx like imo.

Edit: Ignore this, the turret actually stays by the elevator apparently, which is good imo. I guess my argument was invalid. :thumb:

MrGone
4th Sep 2011, 12:57
There are some fundamental additions that I think need fixing and/or additions in this game to truly make it legendary.

I too love it over all, but there are definitely issues. But since I like to be constructive, I'm including my changes/ideas for either future DLC, a direct sequel, or just in general.

So . . . FIXES:

>>>>>Guard AI<<<<<

- Add 2 to 3 more patrol patterns to the rooms that are decided upon loads or entry past script triggers. Additionally, the pattern can change if an alarm is sounded to throw off the user's ability to predict them and make the "mark" augment more useful. This keeps routes predictable to a degree, but adds variation for different play-throughs and a penalty for causing an alarm that affects a stealth player (who will hide from combat).

- Consider adding reinforcements if an alarm is sounded from previous sections in the level. I.E. if I move through section one without causing an alarm or being spotted, thus having left 12 guards alive, and an alarm goes off in section 2, six of those guards will reinforce the guards I kill in my fight to escape in section 2. This means gameplay won't change for the guys who play like an assassin, dispatching everyone they come across, but for those who attempt stealth pragmatically or simply "punch a hole" through levels, they now have to worry about pursuers. However this would make the most sense in the "mission" levels, not the hub levels.

- Guards need to check in with each other on patrol from time to time. Assign them into small squads and intermittently have these squads make radio contact with each other or with "monitor groups" at security stations. If one squad does not respond, another is dispatched to investigate why. This means that if the "assassin" player has to work quickly and hide bodies/disable alarm systems in order to take down all the guards in a section, but a pure sneaker does not, adding more risk to assassins, for whom there is less currently since they can simply stalk from target to target without fear of reciprocation.

- This is something changed from Thief 1 to 2 (via torches). Resetting disabled devices - at least cameras anyway. A guard who finds his mate knocked unconscious in a security terminal will naturally access the terminal and look for the intruder. The guards have access to terminals, let them use it.

- That being said, destroying a camera should not automatically cause an alarm if there is no guard at the associated terminal. I suppose you could say it's an automatic destruction type thing, but think about it naturally. If a janitor knocked a camera off the hanger during maintenance you wouldn't have an alarm sound because the guard on duty would have noticed the accident ON THE CAMERA and NOT sounded the alarm. This is important as currently, destroying a camera is pointless, since it sets off an alarm anyway. If there is no guard at the station then there should be no penalty other than the noise it makes and the fact that if another guard sees the camera it should set them to run to an alarm terminal (and if the nearest is disabled, begin searching for the intruder).

- Guards need to have some ability to pursue Jensen in vents. If they can't go in there themselves, then having them throw a grenade in there at least would help. Right now, they will shoot at entrances or through grating, but they also won't take the more obvious step of flushing out the rat in their midst. Specifically gas grenades should fill an entire vent, and be the most deadly (since it is a gas and the vent is DESIGNED to allow for the easier passage of gasses.

- Guards are already subdivided between augs and norms and this needs to be reflected in some manner. One of the more obvious ways is in incapacitation. Non Augs should only be briefly unconcious from a stun gun, but "permanently unconscious" from tranq darts as there are no systems to filter out the drug. Augs on the other hand should have filters for the darts, but the electricity fries their circuits, permanently disabling them in a stunned state. "Ogre" class enemies should be able to knock vending machines out of their way, or use them as shields as Jensen can since they have increased strength.

- Also, "Sneaker" guards need to be able to use cover in the same way as Jensen, as in, traveling along it while hiding. Would make them WAY more interesting to fight. Additionally, they could have unique AI if they spot Jensen when the player hasn't seen them - namely, they try to assassinate him! A quick look back would reveal them outstretched with a blade in hand as they creep up.

- Guards could probably use some more callouts for suspicious activity. A minor thing, but I've heard the same few lines a lot even in one play-through. A little more variation here goes a LOOOONG way.

- Consider making some guards get cowardly and fleeing/always being suspicious and on alert if the majority of their team is dispatched. Seriously. Goes a long way to increasing immersion. Look to Batman Arkham Asylum for the PERFECT example. Or consider this - tactical retreats laying mines along their retreat path.

- Another minor thing, but can we at least see guards pushing doors open/pulling them closed. I get that Jensen might not since he's theoretically in first person the whole time, but guards need this animation since WE are observing THEM more often.

- Odd thing this, but seeing as Jensen can get the eye augment to detect invisible enemies, where are the aug guards who can do the same with him? Just say it's an older or inferior model of a Tai Young Medical version so it creates an obvious "glow", and we get the same sweep bars as on the cameras to gauge range and cone in the HUD. It creates a neat "eye of Sauron" effect, and gives us something new to avoid - WHILE nerfing to some degree the nearly perfect power of cloaking. Or if not that, then a new security device: motion trackers. They work just like mines (moving slowly negates), but they see through invisibility and are linked to the security system.

>>>>>Overall Scripting/Hubs <<<<<

- There really needs to be a major reaction to a massacre at the police station. As far as I could tell, there was none whatsoever, and this seems a MAJOR oversight. The devs have put in a major objective there, and if the player fails to talk their way in (which I did the first time), they must then sneak in. If they get caught, they may then kill officers (it can happen). Now after that, I would expect at the very least, an APB put out for Jensen's arrest, and so ALL police on the streets become hostile if he's spotted from then on. Like the Mercs of Hengsha do in the 2nd visit to China

There should also have been a heavy reprimand from Sarif, Prichard and Malik, and it should have probably closed off certain quest lines from occurring and dramatically affected how they (and other Sarif Industries employees) treat him. Seriously, if you go on a massacre here it's not only completely immoral, but it's also ludicrous that its not recognized - Adam Jensen is pretty well known in this section of the neighborhood he's in, being a former cop and all. To compensate though, perhaps a new quest line to make alter public perception by pinning it on a patsy would have been an addition. This seriously bugs me seeing as it's a place he LIVES in. If he murder people in Hengsha, it's immoral, but they don't know him from, well, Adam, so he's just a murdering foreign devil, but so are many of the thugs you work with IN HENGSHA.

Oh and for the record, it's not impossible to do this VERY EARLY in the game and on "Give me Deus Ex" Difficulty. I went in with a combat oriented character after having visited the limb clinic for the first time and doing that internal security sidequest only. I managed to kill EVERYONE in the station and leave via the 3rd floor back exit by being careful in the combat and using vending machine shields with the strength augment.

- Civilians need to flee to the nearest officer if they see you committing crimes, or if that to discreet "exit zones" on the hub map (depending on the severity of the crime). That way there's less of sense of them waiting to die as you gun them down like a lone gunman. Also, occasionally perhaps they try to ineffectually fight Jensen - seriously, just show one punching Jensen and breaking his hand on the metal frame, which disables him and has Jensen taking, like 1 HP of damage. Hilarious and would explain his cowering better.

- Why can't I give a couple of credits to a hobo asking for it? Or the dancing guy in the subway? OR the dancer in the Hung Hua Hotel? Little touches like these go a long way. Especially if there's a small reward, like a unique flourish from the dancers or a funny joke from a hobo. Also, there are noodle vendors in Hengsha that I can't buy noodles from. Even Deckard got to eat noodles in Blade Runner before Gaff showed up. Let me eat some damn noodles (at +1 energy bar), they look too delicious!

If this might make too much energy available in Hengsha - then always have it be the last customer before they close/go on break, or that the line gets too busy and guy won't respond to Jensen afterward.

- Odd that this wasn't in the game as an alternate way into the police station: commit a crime, police taze you and stick you in an empty cell. You then either work with cellmates or smash through wall to escape and get into morgue. Also: Non-lethal enemy attack that MAKES SENSE.

>>>>> Weapons <<<<<

For the most part, weapons are fine, but there are a couple of small things I'd like to see changed.

- A Stun Gun upgrade. If not at least on reload speed, then how about this: a mod that when active, takes two stun charges, but when you hit an enemy, they become a stun trap for about thirty seconds. If another enemy touches them, they TOO get stunned.

- If I have my weapon put away and I tap the attack button, it should be a light push with Jensen's hand. This could just annoy and harrass "friendly" NPCs, but move them back about a meter in a "stumble". When behind cover, this creates a gentle rap with the back of his knuckles on the surfaces he's got cover on, creating a small noise. If I hold it, he elbows in front of him (no blade) creating enough force to knock someone down as if hit by a thrown crate, but not unconcious, and to break a window (while draining a third of an energy bar). If hitting a piece of cover he's hiding behind it creates a much larger noise and applies some force.


>>>>> Environment Fixes and Improvements <<<<<

- Surprised this never occurred actually, but while there are bot panels for when alarms go off, there are no turret panels. I.E. sliding walls that reveal auto turrets if an alarm is sounded. In general, turrets were pretty rare in the game, would have been nice to see a few more.

- Why does crawling around in a vent make no noise at full speed? I can suspend my disbelief in Metal Gear or in Deus Ex 1, as these were fully biological characters in suits (with some nanites in their bloodstream but they're tiny). But Adam Jensen has arms MADE OF METAL CRASHING AROUND IN A METAL VENT. That makes noise, I'm sorry, it just does - besides, this would give a new reason to use the move silently augment (which is woefully useless). Say it creates small wheels on his knees and elbow allowing him to glide through venting (but at level 2 of the skill).

- If a door is locked, let me see its destructibility please. As it is, I have no idea if destroying a door is a viable option or not until I've wasted some ammo on it when it is locked - which is EXACTLY the problem I need to know about when I decide to attack a door rather than hack its lock.

- While we're on doors: With increased lift strength, why can't I hold X to rip a door off its hinges as a medium point between a crate shield and a vending machine shield? It would work VERY easily this way. Also, why can't I kick down a door with the super strength (wall smashing) Aug to launch it across the room if it is of "weak" durability?

- While on the weakness of the wall punching Aug . . . why are all vent covers so easy to open? Some should probably be bolted in, and need to be ripped out with the improved strength Aug. This also makes venting a little less of a perfect solution to EVERY problem and allows them to be a bit more gated (and encourages investment in this particular Aug). Not only that, but if Jensen can punch through a concrete wall, he can probably bend a few small iron bars.

- Computer monitors at least need to be destructible and thowable. I don't care if it causes the player to miss out on an important email here or there, that's what they get for starting a fire fight willy nilly or throwing a frag grenade into the midst of an office floor. Just make them immune to concussion and gas grenades, tranq darts and we're fine.



>>>>> Augment Additions <<<<<

(First off, let it be noted that I agree with the fact that there are way too many praxis points in the game and not nearly enough to be spent on, and thus more gradiation on many augments would be better).

- That being said, a new hacking augment to allow the user to create a HUD interface to interact with a PC that has no monitor, and/or was fried by an EMP would negate the penalty of making them destructable, which

- Re-breather should be step two on the lungs augment, and the first should be increased sprint. Or there should be two steps to re-breather - with the first only allowing a few seconds of filtered air and the second, infinite. As it is, the augment is too powerful initially. Completely negating gas when it seems to be a preferred grenade for enemies seems extreme.

- The Social augment is too good too quickly as well. The base model giving analyzation would be worth the purchase for the arguments, especially if the "appease, charm and cajole" aspects were merely added to Jensen's normal responses. The main issue are the pheromones, which are just DAMN powerful and completely change the way conversations flow. Having them at a third praxis point would be much more fair and still give the user the neat HUD and advice.

- Either both or at least one of the regeneration augments should be unbought at the start of the game. I find the rate of regen actually rather quick considering I put ZERO points in it. It would make sense to put at least one point into it to achieve the current base level of regeneration. Also, the internal defribulator is one of the currently bought upgrades at the start, but is just window dressing text. That concept is too cool to not have gameplay ramifications!

Use it as a back up life saver: at zero HP Jensen falls down, but gets a shock that restores HP in equivalent with your power cells, which are drained in the process. The more cells active and full, the more HP regained, at 10 HP each. This gives an added benefit of possibly saving the player's life on occasion, and giving another reason to invest in increased battery storage.

- New Strength Augment upgrade (to go under the "lift/Move heavy objects") : One Handed body pickup/ Human Shields. Pretty basic concept really, it allows the player to grab bodies like they normally do, but now if Jensen is standing, the lift them from the scruff of the neck and can use them as a temporary shield and throw them at enemies. They can still shoot with their right hand, but at an increased "movement" accuracy penalty (negated with that augmentation).

- New Leg Augmentation: Burst Charge. Basically, if I'm carrying a vending machine or door as a shield, I want to charge forward knocking people out of my way for about ten meters in a direct line. If I hit a solid wall with a shield like this, it stuns Jensen (perhaps knocking him down briefly as seen in Duke Nukem Forever). Without a shield, this can also do damage. If you make contact with enemies it knocks them back and acts like a PEPS shot, doing a lot of nonlethal damage if there is nothing behind them and launching them. If however, there is a wall within a meter or two, it becomes a particularly brutal crushing kill. You need some sort of solid, held shield for this to become an available maneuver, either a crate, door, vending machine (or if my earlier human shield concept is viable, another guard). Like other "action" augs, this drains a cell when used.

- "Countdown Timer" Should go into "Stealth Subsystems" where it belongs rather than the Eye Augments category. To replace it, I suggest a new Aug: Telescopic Lenses. Pretty simple: allows for 2x "scope" when no weapon is out on normal vision. If that negates the weapon scopes, then make it drain low amounts of power.

- As a totally comical thing, but good for different play-through, under the socialization augments, add a new Upgrade: Joke Database. All this literally does is give Jensen one liners that he spouts in direct correspondence to how he dispatches guards, if he is nearly caught, and at a few distinct other points in the game. Totally for flavor alone.

- Reflex Booster could use some new steps: first is Backwards Takedown. Normally you can only do takedowns on enemies in front of Jensen, now you get a prompt if they show up behind you, and you can perform some unique take down animations this way (both lethal and non lethal of course).

Next, how about Sprint Slide: if while sprinting you run into the path of an NPC, you get a prompt to pop up and if you tap it (probably sprint button again) Jenson will perform a quick dodge around them (like when you're running through a crowd) with a half drained energy cell. It takes a moment for an NPC who is dodged to realize what's happened and turn around, but essentially the idea here is to be able to clip through enemies/crowds. Possibly small movable boxes too.

>>>>> Meta/Other <<<<<

- When using takedowns, put some sort of filter around the edges of the screen to show that these are happening almost instantaneously and at hyper speed, or create a new animation/VO for enemies to have them explain that they don't want to shoot their own men. Something to explain why guards aren't firing at me in these little cinematics.

- Some sort of post game unlockables would be nice. Maybe a new difficulty setting that limits saves to three a location and cancels auto-saves? Or how about this? The Poor Bastard Difficulty: just remove starter points in regen, radar and fortified hacking, and give Jensen some debt he has to pay off (12,000 Credits to pay for medical bills before he can buy Praxis kits), while increasing the cost on all items bought by 20% and reducing sell prices by the same. Other than that, it's the same difficulty as "Give Me Deus Ex", but you do get some golden highlights in Jensen's exoskeleton (why he's so poor).

Or how about this difficulty: Unaltered. Same damage scaling as "Give Me Deus Ex", but Jensen recovers from his wounds naturally. He has NO augmentations, thus no HUD or radar. He carries a Personal Secretary with him for data management and inventory, but other than that, he has to rely on weapons and their iron sights and inconsistent nonlethal melee takedowns, which run on a scale of one energy bar at its lowest setting. On the other hand, Praxis kits can be sold for cash, vendors have extra ammo and the inventory space is set at level 1 upgrade. Also, Jensen has an eye patch considering he was shot in the eye during the attack, plus it looks cool.

- Finally, the endings. These need serious work, and really, there should be something where you play through each of them as Jensen depending on your choice. If you choose Sarif's ending, you should be able to walk the streets of Detroit with an objective to meet someone in your Apartment. You can listen to people reacting to the choices you made throughout the game. When you get there, it's Megan, with your dog, Kubrick. Megan isn't staying, but needs time to sort things out on her own, and figured Adam should at least be taking care of the dog again before she leaves. If you went with Darrow, then you're stuck wandering Hengsha, being hunted by Illuminati assassins and trying to find passage somewhere safe. You basically get a new mission as you break into Tong's old hideout looking for some sort of clue. Jensen finds Tong dead, and it a trap, and we get a nice Halo Reach "Last Stand" ending. If you went with Taggart, then you're now working at PICUS, and have to recieve a message from Taggart concerning what's happening to Eliza, who is, in keeping with her apparent desire to find human qualities attempting to give "birth" to a new AI, which will come to be known as Daedelus.If you self destruct, at least give us a few minutes to walk around Panachea as it crumbles, while Adam reminisces about the adventure or talks to Eliza a bit more. She at least lets him know that Megan is safe and free, and that if nothing else, he accomplished that.

The point is, the endings as they are, aren't very impactful on Adam Jensen. They need something to make them really "stick". It doesn't matter what exactly, so much as they ARE something. Considering it's a game, it would be best if these were interactive moments, and considering how many questions are left unanswered by the end of the game and how inconsequential Jensen must be to the nature of the original Deus Ex (by necessity as it's a prequel) they probably can't be anything totally world shifting. So yeah, some personality is really what they need, and also interactivity.

AND that's all I have to say about that.

Setero
4th Sep 2011, 17:50
Just started my second playthrough, how I feel about this game is how I felt about the first Assassins Creed, a fun but flawed game but with tons of potential.

Customizable gamepad controls not just for the keyboard and mouse. Hold down instead of toggle options for crouch and aiming down sights.

If you can't balance XP bonus than just get rid of XP and just let players rely on finding, buying, or being rewarded with Praxis kits, right now there is too much XP farming. If you want to reward stealth, nonlethality, and exploration with more XP than you need to find a way to reward combat, lethality, and speedrunning. Also entering the correct keycode should net XP.

Balance the augs, too many are useless, have a more variable praxis cost. A few suggestions for current augs.
* Silent movement should be passive.
* Stop worm and Nuke would be better as augs when upgraded give more uses per hack.
* Reflex booster could have more situational takedowns like from above.
* More uses for social analyzer like on merchants for discounts or as an active aug with you can give specific "orders" to people.
* Radar upgrade makes enemy positions too small to see, so just keep radar range short so mark and track is useful, also your initial radar shouldn't tell you which way the enemy is facing save that for cone of vision.
* Rework lower capture rate as a penalty, I dislike not being able to try, also AUDs should be in the main game.
* Locked doors show whether they can be blown open or not, also certain doors can be punched through like walls can.


More augs, more active augs, four at a time can be mapped, some take place of guns or grenade when activated. In addition to the inital augmentation list you could buy more from LIMB clinics and black markets. A few new aug suggestions.
* A concealable gun arm
* An electric shock to disable turrets and smaller robots you've sneaked upon
* An enemy analyzer thats shows their weapons or augs
* Manually controlled spy drones
* A force field with a high drain rate
* A zoom without sighting in
* Mimic aug that can recreate voices, blood, or handprints for biometric locks or other uses.

We should at least be able to upgrade base energy to two, also energy bars\packs\jars should allow temporarily recharge of those extra cells in addition to filling them up. Also charging stations or bots for energy cells. Bring back locational damage but still keep a standard health gauge, you're body has wear and tear from damage and can be disabled eventually requiring repairs.

Security should strip you of weapons in certain places and of course are given back when leaving, but you can choose to hide smaller weapons or convince them to let you keep a few, of course you can refuse and fight in or sneak to where they are stashed and get them back.

More boss battle variety including non violent ways around, it shouldn't always be so cat and mouse, Bosses should have more varied augs and be more realistic to damage relying more on augs and for some to take cover and run. Also melee can be used on bosses just not causing instant death, maybe knocking them down or stunning them.

Random or at least multiple keypad codes, patrol routes, and item placements. Certain sidequests should be mutually exclusive and can form alliances with certain factions.

There should be more robots in the world, not just military attack ones, and also more (weak and strong)AI programs. Cameras, turrets, robots, augmented soldiers, etc. should see thermals. Also more uses for computers than security or emails like using the internet to find info, or perhaps a VR cyberspace. More references to philosophy and mythology not just technology.

Hiding in the dark and variable loudness for surfaces, the ability to turn lights on\off or destroy electrical boxes. Flashbangs and smoke grenades that can be quick dropped, it helps the enemies lose their line of sight of you, otherwise its just cloak to reinitiate stealth. Have the ability to raid and destroy enemy supply stations making enemies less equipped for battle and detection. The ability to hide in and hide bodies in lockers\dumpsters\boxes. The ability to ledge grab or vault possibly going third person. Perhaps the ability to pickpocket.

Ketzerfreund
5th Sep 2011, 06:48
besides, this would give a new reason to use the move silently augment (which is woefully useless)
Wat.
The combination of silent move and cloaking makes the whole stealth augmentation tree a waste of praxis!


Either both or at least one of the regeneration augments should be unbought at the start of the game. I find the rate of regen actually rather quick considering I put ZERO points in it.

Well... Actually, it's just a 50% regeneration anyway, since the max health point number is 200. ;)


Most qualms I personally have with the game have been adressed, but there's still the following:

Ditch the quick saving function or add another difficulty level for that, so that the player is forced to live with hacking failures, botched takedown attempts etc. Sure, you could say it's a matter of discipline, but to resort to save scamming is too tempting with only a single key that needs to be pressed.


Radar upgrade makes enemy positions too small to see, so just keep radar range short...

I'd prefer the radar window to simply be bigger (maybe make it configurable).

I would like to have more detailed graphics configuration options. A proper config file would be great! I'm especially missing a prefetch option: The texture loading on the fly made the first boss fight utterly unwinnable for me on hard difficulty. And things like only having the option to switch all post-processing on or off instead of being able to tune single effects is inadequate.

With the topic of transhumanism so strong in this game, I'm sorely missing a reference to Transmetropolitan somewhere... Though, it's perfectly possible I haven't found it, yet. ;)
But I'm also with Setero regarding quotation or reference to material like "The Golem", E.T.A. Hoffmann's "Elixirs Of The Devil" and the like.


* A concealable gun arm
* An electric shock to disable turrets and smaller robots you've sneaked upon
* An enemy analyzer thats shows their weapons or augs
* Manually controlled spy drones
* A force field with a high drain rate
* A zoom without sighting in
* Mimic aug that can recreate voices, blood, or handprints for biometric locks or other uses.

* Light!

Ketzerfreund
5th Sep 2011, 06:50
-nvm-

jvilnisaust
5th Sep 2011, 08:28
Well after having 2 of my savegames overwritten by my GF I would like to see profiles put in so that you can seperate the different player's savegames so you don't lose all your work because someone can't remember if they were playing on save 1 or 2.

Ketzerfreund
5th Sep 2011, 08:49
How about allowing us to name our savegames, too? I can't for the life of me imagine, why any dev would even deny the player that.

Urmyleander
5th Sep 2011, 10:20
Firstly I would like to say I have really enjoyed this game.
Here is what I would change add.

1. The energy bar things, make it so all bars recharge eventually otherwise there almost pointless.

2. More Destructable Cover Etc.

3. Smarter AI, lets be honest even on the hardest difficulty the AI are just hard hitting sheep.

4. Better bosses, I realized the bosses failed in this game when I reached boss number 2 and killed her in about 30-40 seconds using the full upgraded typhoon explosive system.

5. It would be interesting if there were more environments, I didn't get bored of the city building environments but I would have liked more variety.

6. More gas grenades.

7. Mission unlockable augments, as in some hidden side mission that upon completion unlock a new type of augment.

Vasili
5th Sep 2011, 11:13
I think more use could of been made with the energy bars... Adding more active abilities/bad ass stuff to do with them would have been nice.. For example, 'MrGone' (posting above) suggested a power sprint while holding heavy objects that would consume energy.. I like these sorts of ideas. Although it would kind of make lethal playthroughs extremely easy?

Also, it would have been nice to see a takedown for robots.. To potentially balance this have it consume 2 energy cells: you effectively use your badass augmented limbs to full effect, punching a hole through one of those massive mechs, or tearing its mechanical limbs off only to use this limb to impale its shell. I felt as though I had these two mechanical arms, yet all I could do with them was pick up oversized trashcans and punch through walls, perhaps further in depth development of particular limbs would have been better. For example upgrading your arms to the point at which you had your own Barrett gun! Or even the ability to utilise your blades for melee combat (gained through rigorous upgrading, of course), instead of having to use a third person cutscene all the time. Or maybe give people who play a lethal character the option to kill 3 enemies at the same time through the 'lethal' option and reward this accordingly. Currently, it makes NO sense to use a lethal takedown because it gives so much less experience and is so much noisier.

supe
5th Sep 2011, 11:54
*spoilers*

Minor quest-related suggestion: I'm on my second trip through Hengshua looking for Sevchenko's GPL. I enter the Harvester hideout through a vent in the roof. Being a completionist, I like to see what's behind every door, so I exit through a door to the city streets where I'm standing directly behind a Harvester close enough to see the dirt on the back of his neck, with another half dozen of his buddies nearby. The door I *just walked through* is locked so I can't backtrack. It isn't possible to hack the door before being discovered and there are no safe spots to use the cover system, so it's guaranteed death unless you have cloak.

The door needs to automatically unlock when you exit from the inside.

exmachinad
5th Sep 2011, 15:33
So, we have a new Deus Ex. And all this talk about the series around the net got me thinking.

Whenever there is a new game of a series (and it of course also refers to movies, books, musical albuns and whatever can be called art and/or entertainment) there are people who prefer the "old" and people who prefer the "new", naturally.

Some people have good arguments about their point of view, others don't. Naturally, as well.

But what strike me as unfair is that, even when someone take their time to write / speak something well thought about an "old" game (or movie etc), there's quite a number of people eager to throw the word "nostalgia!" at you, and easily dismiss any argument, saying something about "seeing things trough colored lens of nostalgia" or some similar cliched sentence.

Sure, some people are like that, they prefer the "old" because... well, because it is "old". :D But others don't. There are people with good points to hold their opinion.

And, while there are people who also take their time to speak about what they think is better in the "new" (game, movie or whatever), others simply seem to have a mindset like "it is NEW, how can it NOT be better"?

So, I was thinking, what should be called these people? People that think that "the new IS better" is the end of all arguments?

JCpies
5th Sep 2011, 15:35
Trolls.

MaxxQ1
5th Sep 2011, 15:45
I *may* get another warning, or even a temp ban, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they should be called "CoDEllites".


;):rasp::D

unbeatableDX
5th Sep 2011, 15:51
i am in my twenties and still regularly play DX1. it has nothing to do with nostalgia. when i first completed DX1 i completed it about 4 more times straight after. With DX:HR i completed it twice, loved it, but cant bring myself to do it again. simply because there is not enough freedom, variety & depth. still GOTY though. and the combat, stealth, AI, hacking & graphics is much better than dx1. it just needs more.

jd10013
5th Sep 2011, 15:58
I *may* get another warning, or even a temp ban, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they should be called "CoDEllites".


;):rasp::D

whatever happened to him? he seems to have dropped off the face of the earth. last post of his I saw he was actually complaining about the game, which actually, in part, prompted me to buy it.

anyway, I don't understand why some people feel HR has to be better than DX. heck, a good many people consider DX one of the best games ever made, with some thinking it is the best game ever made. HR, and anyting that follow can be great games (and I do think HR is) and still be a notch below DX. Everything Da Vinci painted didn't have to be the Mona Lisa to be a work of art.

Ashpolt
5th Sep 2011, 15:58
I agree, but would like to add that as well as people thinking "the new one is better simply because it is newer" (something which is fortunately rare on these forums) there's a more wide-ranging and troubling counterpoint to nostalgia: that, while people accuse those who prefer DX of just seeing it through rose-tinted glasses, they themselves are unable to look past the technical shortcomings to see the brilliance of the underlying design - in other words, they're seeing it through crap-tinted glasses (for lack of a better phrase!)

I'm not saying that applies to everyone who prefers DXHR to the original, just to some - and in the same way, I hope the "modern" crowd can understand that not everyone who prefers to original does so just for nostalgia purposes. I, for instance, originally played Deus Ex when I was in university, a few years after release so it was already technically shoddy (well, that was true even when it was released, tbh) and way past my own personal "golden era" of gaming (which occurred during my mid-teens with games like Gran Turismo and Final Fantasy VII - yeah, I said it.) I also replay it on a regular basis, as recently as a couple of months ago, and am well aware of its shortcomings, particularly with regards to graphics and AI. I don't doubt that there's some measure of nostalgia that adds to my enjoyment in some small way, but to entirely write my (and others') high regard of the game off as pure nostalgia is simply lazy. If someone prefers DXHR to the original, I won't write off that opinion simply on the assumption that they prefer modern games to old (provided their reasons aren't simply "OMFG the graphics of the original suxxorz!" of course) and I would expect the same courtesy in return.

But with regards to coherently articulating reasons for why one game or the other is better (subjectively or otherwise) I see a lot of people writing off DXHR's flaws simply as "that's the way the industry is nowadays" - how is that not exactly the same flaw in objectivity as the nostalgia that fans of the original are being accused of, albeit on the other side of the argument?

[EDIT]


whatever happened to him? he seems to have dropped off the face of the earth. last post of his I saw he was actually complaining about the game, which actually, in part, prompted me to buy it.

You didn't honestly expect him to stick around did you? DXHR has been out for over two weeks now, almost three weeks in the US (where I believe he's from) - by his standards, it's ancient! He's moved on to newer (and therefore necessarily better, again by his standards) things now, such as...err....Driver: San Francisco and...err...umm....many others.

More importantly, two weeks is more than enough for him to realise that DXHR isn't CoD: 2027 or Cyberpunk Gears of War.

Brian175
5th Sep 2011, 16:23
But with regards to coherently articulating reasons for why one game or the other is better (subjectively or otherwise) I see a lot of people writing off DXHR's flaws simply as "that's the way the industry is nowadays" - how is that not exactly the same flaw in objectivity as the nostalgia that fans of the original are being accused of, albeit on the other side of the argument?


I personally see a lot more of the "Go play COD" elitism than the nostalgia accusations. Look at the 3rd person threads before the game came out. It reeked of, "This is stupid, they're just doing it because that's what's cool now and Eidos is compromising the game. It should be first person because that's how the first was," and then it turned out to work pretty good.

Ashpolt
5th Sep 2011, 16:31
I personally see a lot more of the "Go play COD" elitism than the nostalgia accusations. Look at the 3rd person threads before the game came out. It reeked of, "This is stupid, they're just doing it because that's what's cool now and Eidos is compromising the game. It should be first person because that's how the first was," and then it turned out to work pretty good.

Sure, I'm not denying that there are...*ahem*....less informed arguments on both sides of this debate. But just like there are people who have valid, well expressed reasons for preferring DXHR to the original, there are also people who (for instance) came up with valid, well expressed reasons for thinking 3rd person, while not necessarily bad in itself, is a bad choice for a Deus Ex game - points many (myself included) still stick by after playing the game. Yes, it works fine, but that's because the game was designed around it - it doesn't mean a better game couldn't have been made without it.

But regardless, I really don't want to turn this into another first vs third person debate - simply read the CopyPasta thread (link in my sig) to see how much that's been debated to death. The important thing to take away from this post is that there's good and bad arguments on both sides of the debate.

unbeatableDX
5th Sep 2011, 16:33
I personally see a lot more of the "Go play COD" elitism than the nostalgia accusations. Look at the 3rd person threads before the game came out. It reeked of, "This is stupid, they're just doing it because that's what's cool now and Eidos is compromising the game. It should be first person because that's how the first was," and then it turned out to work pretty good.

it did work out pretty good, i admit. but it affected level design (although not as much as gears or mass effect)
why do think most of the game occurs in offices & coridoors

Brian175
5th Sep 2011, 17:02
it did work out pretty good, i admit. but it affected level design (although not as much as gears or mass effect)
why do think most of the game occurs in offices & coridoors

Hum, did it though? We could have had a Statue of Liberty level and it would have not been harmed by a 3rd person component. That port level before you get on the boat is proof. I think the level design had something to do with it being easy to control multi-paths and the player than just a big open area making the game more linear. If anything a 3rd person game works better in open areas, such as Assassin's Creed. Anyways, as Ashpolt pointed out we shouldn't let this fall into another CopyPasta thread.

Rhyx
5th Sep 2011, 17:22
So, I was thinking, what should be called these people? People that think that "the new IS better" is the end of all arguments?

Transhuman. :)

jd10013
5th Sep 2011, 17:27
^ good one

Ashpolt
5th Sep 2011, 17:37
To divert this back onto track....


So, I was thinking, what should be called these people? People that think that "the new IS better" is the end of all arguments?

Simple: newstalgics.