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Griseus
24th Aug 2011, 06:48
Hello. Wanted to ask a question about XP bonuses.

As from "demo", there is 2 of them linked to stealth - Ghost and Smooth operator.

Is there something like this for other game styles, or this is the only way of effective developement as Praxis points rewarded for EXP:

10 non leathal takedowns + ghost + smooth = 500 + 500 + 300 = 1300xp
10 kills = 100 (200 is all with headshots) xp

Is it really that wrong?

Brockxz
24th Aug 2011, 06:57
yes it is and it was already discussed previously that xp distribution isn't balanced enough and promotes exactly one type of gameplay.

Griseus
24th Aug 2011, 07:42
yes it is and it was already discussed previously that xp distribution isn't balanced enough and promotes exactly one type of gameplay.

I hope EIDOS guys will fix this in future patches, but for now it defenetly affect my decision to buy a game.

And this is large dissapointment for me, as such things really destroy my hope in a game developers. DXHR could be one epic game after DX1, System shock and F3 (with some modifications), but still MUCH better then lots of others.
Dreams, dreams...

RyoThorn
24th Aug 2011, 07:46
DX1's leveling system wasn't perfect, or all that good. Just saying.

Brockxz
24th Aug 2011, 07:55
I hope EIDOS guys will fix this in future patches, but for now it defenetly affect my decision to buy a game.

And this is large dissapointment for me, as such things really destroy my hope in a game developers. DXHR could be one epic game after DX1, System shock and F3 (with some modifications), but still MUCH better then lots of others.
Dreams, dreams...

I don't think it would be good to try fix that now after game has been released. By fixing they can only make it worse because that's the core of their rpg skill (augmentation) system. I just hope they rethink it and make better adjustments in their next DX project because previous DX awarded xp for completing objectives and some exploration bonuses but now it is like you get xp for so many insignificant things (killing and doing something in exact way) that it just promotes xp farming and doing things to get more xp and not to do it your way. I really hope they will rethink xp system for next DX game to eliminate this problem.

tZer
24th Aug 2011, 07:57
And it was still discussed the XP system is fine the way it is :rolleyes:

sajin
24th Aug 2011, 08:14
Hello. Wanted to ask a question about XP bonuses.

As from "demo", there is 2 of them linked to stealth - Ghost and Smooth operator.

Is there something like this for other game styles, or this is the only way of effective developement as Praxis points rewarded for EXP:

10 non leathal takedowns + ghost + smooth = 500 + 500 + 300 = 1300xp
10 kills = 100 (200 is all with headshots) xp

Is it really that wrong?

XP isn't that important imo when using run&gun style. For stealth, you probably want the vision + cloaking field + silent move augmentations. What do you need for combat ? A good gun, and that's it. Maybe the armor augmentation (but not really) and the recoil compensation (also worked fine without), but most important are well upgraded weapons (which have nothing to do with XP) and good reflexes.

In the demo (so only first third of the game), i played run & gun style and had about 57000xp (15 praxis: 11 by xp, 4 kits) at the end. The second nonlethal stealth game finished with 66000xp (17 praxis: 13 by xp, 4 kits).

-> main source of XP was "getting things done" and especially exploration. Loosing 2 praxis isn't really bad considering the cost of stealth. No need to fix what isn't broken...

Griseus
24th Aug 2011, 08:18
DX1's leveling system wasn't perfect, or all that good. Just saying.

"There is always a better way" :rolleyes:

But still, whe way is done in DXHR, it turns into a XP grinder:

You need exp for upgrades -> max exp from takedowns -> gring takedowns + ghosts.
All other is ineffective as from Demo, i don't see other way to get it. There could be alternate ways, but they are missing.

sajin
24th Aug 2011, 08:26
You need exp for upgrades -> max exp from takedowns -> gring takedowns + ghosts.
All other is ineffective as from Demo, i don't see other way to get it. There could be alternate ways, but they are missing.

57000xp (15 praxis: 11 by xp, 4 kits)
vs
66000xp (17 praxis: 13 by xp, 4 kits).

I wouldn't consider that ineffective. Do you really need those last two points so much ?

Brockxz
24th Aug 2011, 08:30
XP isn't that important imo when using run&gun style. For stealth, you probably want the vision + cloaking field + silent move augmentations. What do you need for combat ? A good gun, and that's it. Maybe the armor augmentation (but not really) and the recoil compensation (also worked fine without), but most important are well upgraded weapons (which have nothing to do with XP) and good reflexes.

In the demo (so only first third of the game), i played run & gun style and had about 57000xp (15 praxis: 11 by xp, 4 kits) at the end. The second nonlethal stealth game finished with 66000xp (17 praxis: 13 by xp, 4 kits).

-> main source of XP was "getting things done" and especially exploration. Loosing 2 praxis isn't really bad considering the cost of stealth. No need to fix what isn't broken...
You did either something really wrong in stealth run or something more in combat run if you got only 2 praxis difference there. When i played leaked demo i got a lot large difference in xp points and praxis points when i completed both those runs. Did you tried to silently melee takedown every enemy in every area? I did and it accumulates a lot of xp and after that i got ghost and smooth operator bonuses that ended in really large difference in xp amount compare to just run and gun play-through.
I agree that run and gun doesn't need a lot of augments to support it but in the end you don't play game all the way in one style, you want to try different approaches through out one playthrough but if you have limited you're xp gain amount in first few missions it start to limit your abilities to change your gameplay choices later because you don 't have enough points to invest in hacking, stealth etc to really support those gameplay styles. You end up doing same gameplay all the way for the most part of the game and this is against DX formula - do it your way because you are limited to do it the way you started.
Of course what i else notice is that going from stealth to combat is easier than the other way around because stealth will produce a lot xp and a lot items/ammo. Playing stealth i was always throwing away a lot items already in the first mission.

sajin
24th Aug 2011, 09:00
You did either something really wrong in stealth run or something more in combat run if you got only 2 praxis difference there.


Well, lets put it to the test:

first mission:
32 guards -> 640 xp (lethal) vs 1600 xp (nonlethal) --960xp
300 ghost
500 ghost
500 ghost
-> total difference 2260xp

police station:
no xp for lethal/nonlethal
250 smooth
500 ghost
-> total difference 750xp

derelict row:
36 gang members -> 720 xp (lethal) vs. 1800xp (nonlethal) -- 1080xp
-> total difference 1080xp

second mission:
27 soldiers -> 540xp (lethal) vs. 1350xp (nonlethal) -- 810xp
250 smooth
500 ghost
-> total difference 1460 xp

other kills/takedowns:
6 augmented gang members, 1 corrupt cop, 2 basketball court gang members: 180xp(lethal) vs 450xp (nonlethal) --270xp

about 5820 xp difference. Which is only one praxis point, guess i didn't explore as much the first time, and probably missed some headshots. Also, i did some dual kills on the second time (145xp for two). But loosing 2 praxis points is already the upper limit (for example, if you kill enemies fast, they cannot raise the alarm -> still get smooth operator).

Brockxz
24th Aug 2011, 09:19
My stealth run involved hacking every computer, door lock etc and entering every vent shaft, room etc to get exploration bonus but in combat run i just killed enemies and went straight to objective. There will be a lot bigger difference in xp in the end. Also, make non-leathal takedown guarantees exactly same amount exp gain but shooting people you miss a chance to get headshot a lot so in combat it will be really different to maximise your exp gain and it will be a lot lower than max possible.

VectorM
24th Aug 2011, 09:30
Why the hell do you need max xp to begin with? Obsessed or something? really, I don't see any other reason to be so worried about this. At most you will lose a few praxis points, yes, that sounds bad, but if you are just killing people, why do you need them? The entire stealth tree, for example, is completely unneeded. So is invisibility. It's not like it will make the game harder, it's actually easier to just shoot people. And it's way more efficient than waiting for that pip to regenerate and hacking every single freaking computer you find.

Really, unless you are simply obsessed about getting every single XP point, then there is no real reason to be worried about anything.

sajin
24th Aug 2011, 09:50
My stealth run involved hacking every computer, door lock etc and entering every vent shaft, room etc to get exploration bonus but in combat run i just killed enemies and went straight to objective.

So the biggest difference wasn't non-lethal or stealth, it was the complete exploration of the game world. Which IMO deserves more XP than the straight to objective approach - you simply experience more.


There will be a lot bigger difference in xp in the end. Also, make non-leathal takedown guarantees exactly same amount exp gain but shooting people you miss a chance to get headshot a lot so in combat it will be really different to maximise your exp gain and it will be a lot lower than max possible.

But we only compared stealth+non-lethal vs. non-stealth+lethal. If the player only plays the bare essentials of the game (no hacking, no social, no exploring etc), he certainly deserves less xp for that...

Brockxz
24th Aug 2011, 09:54
Why the hell do you need max xp to begin with? Obsessed or something? really, I don't see any other reason to be so worried about this. At most you will lose a few praxis points, yes, that sounds bad, but if you are just killing people, why do you need them? The entire stealth tree, for example, is completely unneeded. So is invisibility. It's not like it will make the game harder, it's actually easier to just shoot people. And it's way more efficient than waiting for that pip to regenerate and hacking every single freaking computer you find.

Really, unless you are simply obsessed about getting every single XP point, then there is no real reason to be worried about anything.

I'm not obsessed about getting every single xp point, i just stated the point that it encourages people to do that and there will be a lot of people who will do that. It was just an experiment playing leaked demo to test what is what and it showed just how unbalanced the system is when you give exp for killing and how you kill because people will notice that and even if you won't do that on purpose you will still subconsciously will try to eliminate everyone in a way you benefit the most. That's just human nature to perform the best way you can.
Of course in my first try i was just playing game the way i wanted and didn't really missed out anything but still subconsciously it bugs me out everytime i play as hacking type and end up at computer i can't hack because i still don't have enough skill at this point or i'm stealth gamer and end up killing enemy the combat way because my stealth augemnts weren't good enough to sneak by at this point and so on and on.

And don't tell me you haven't played first game and tried to max out every skill by trying to get max experience and trying to find every augmentation as early as you can in the game. :)

Griseus
24th Aug 2011, 10:58
You missing main point - there is only one way to play and get rewards - stealth.
Why no others, eqally rewardeble ?
Like non-combat. This also included is steals, but i ment completeng missions without ANY combat and get a bonus.
Or kill all humans hostiles with only melee, and get a bonus
Or just kill all and get another bonus for total clean-up... And so on.

tZer
24th Aug 2011, 11:33
Non-combat nets Ghost and Smooth operator, as well as Silver Tongue (1000xp, where it can be done) and Traveler (and other exploration bonuses)
Lethal and non-lethal combat yields xp, Melee kills reward with 20xp more.
What else do you want?
If you kill all you get more xp anyway.

Enraged Penguin
24th Aug 2011, 13:06
You missing main point - there is only one way to play and get rewards - stealth.
Why no others, eqally rewardeble ?
Like non-combat. This also included is steals, but i ment completeng missions without ANY combat and get a bonus.
Or kill all humans hostiles with only melee, and get a bonus
Or just kill all and get another bonus for total clean-up... And so on.


Sajin has proved fairly conclusively that this is not the case. Sure you get less xp if you go for the all out combat approach, but not by much.

I think that's fair anyway. Remaining undetected and using non-lethal means to dispatch the enemies takes far more effort than simply blowing them all away with an assault rifle. Especially given the fact that they can be woken up if they get found by one of their mates.

DieBySword
24th Aug 2011, 14:39
You get 10xp for a kill and 20xp if its a headshot.
You get 50xp for a non-lethal takedown and 145xp if its a double takedown.

So its either 2.5 or 5 times more XP for non-lethal takedown. A double kill is 3:625 or 7.5 timer more XP.

So the xp range difference can go for 2.5 to 7.5 more XP for non-lethal takedown versus gunning. In the beggining it might not matter but at the end of the day after you had a big share of enemies taken down it gives you an advantage.

If a gun route player scores 5000 XP from only killing ppl (headshot) a non-lethal takedown route player will have scored from 12500 XP to a wooping 37500 XP. While you get 1 praxis point for killing those 250 guys the other player will have from 2 to 7 praxis points for the same result.

Thats only taking the xp differences from gunning vs non-lethal takedowns. Now we get the smooth operator and ghost bonuses for being stealthy while a gunning player wont have them (exclude the first mission if you dont get seen by a camera). You need to add the exploration bonus too because a gunning player wont bother hidding in the vents. Hacking might be a difference too because a gunning guy will get the passcodes of dead bodies and will invest praxis in defense and recoil augs first.

And thats forgeting that a takedown player is able to score 20xp for headshoting a unconcious enemie.

sajin
24th Aug 2011, 15:18
You get 10xp for a kill and 20xp if its a headshot.
You get 50xp for a non-lethal takedown and 145xp if its a double takedown.

So its either 2.5 or 5 times more XP for non-lethal takedown. A double kill is 3:625 or 7.5 timer more XP.

Double takedown costs 10000xp (2 Praxis). I doubt the game has enough opportunities for double takedowns to break even.


And thats forgeting that a takedown player is able to score 20xp for headshoting a unconcious enemie.
:scratch: er, when did that happen ?

DieBySword
24th Aug 2011, 15:39
Double takedown costs 10000xp (2 Praxis). I doubt the game has enough opportunities for double takedowns to break even.
You can buy 2 praxis kits from the store, you get 1 kit for free in the first mission. There is a lot of oportunity too do them, or lure enemies for double takedowns. I do quite a few tripple "takedowns" - when 3 ppl talk you tranq one in the head and then go takedown the two who look at the one going to fall down :lol:

:scratch: er, when did that happen ?
Was there even in the beta.

sajin
24th Aug 2011, 15:58
You can buy 2 praxis kits from the store, you get 1 kit for free in the first mission.
and another free kit at the hidden backalley clinic.


There is a lot of oportunity too do them, or lure enemies for double takedowns. I do quite a few tripple "takedowns" - when 3 ppl talk you tranq one in the head and then go takedown the two who look at the one going to fall down :lol:
They are certainly a lot of fun, i also took the ability, but you still have to use the equivalent of 10000xp to get the ability. Which you won't earn: to get 9990xp, you need 222 takedowns, which means 444 enemies standing close enough together. The demo only had about 104 enemies total, of which only a subset can be attacked with a double takedown.


Was there even in the beta. Just tested again to be sure, didn't work for me...

DieBySword
24th Aug 2011, 20:15
They are certainly a lot of fun, i also took the ability, but you still have to use the equivalent of 10000xp to get the ability. Which you won't earn: to get 9990xp, you need 222 takedowns, which means 444 enemies standing close enough together. The demo only had about 104 enemies total, of which only a subset can be attacked with a double takedown.

10k XP can be achieved by taking down 200 guards one by one or doing 69 double takedowns ( only ~140 ppl needed) so it can be achieved. The first hub has like 80-90 ppl to take down and the second has more, coupled with the fact you gonna jump between 2 hubs more than once plus other location I would say 300-400 enemies can be taken down in-game.

sajin
25th Aug 2011, 09:55
10k XP can be achieved by taking down 200 guards one by one or doing 69 double takedowns ( only ~140 ppl needed) so it can be achieved. The first hub has like 80-90 ppl to take down and the second has more, coupled with the fact you gonna jump between 2 hubs more than once plus other location I would say 300-400 enemies can be taken down in-game.

Your calculation is based on total xp instead of xp difference:
two takedowns -> 100xp
double takedown -> 145 xp
difference: 45xp

If we take your 140 people standing adjacent, you get only 69*45xp in addition to the xp you get anyways. Thats 3105 extra xp.

Or, if we assume that each of the 400 enemies you assume to be in game can be part of a double takedown, you get 200*45xp in addition to the xp you normally get, for a total of 9000xp (which is still 1000xp less than the cost of double takedown).

Of course, i still take double takedown in my game, however not because it's efficient, but because its cool :D

Griseus
25th Aug 2011, 11:29
Guys, you stuck on numbers too much, then i'm talking about concept.

All other epx bonuses can still be same for as for exploration and so on, but this is about game style.
It's like in a shop, there you have 2 same probucts, but if you buy one with a "Special Offer", you get a free cookie.
There should be no EXP bonuses for killing\neutralizing at all. It's up to you to decide how you complete mission, and not be tempted by a free cookie. Or have SAME rewards for all styles.

ruminate
25th Aug 2011, 12:42
I'm pretty sure Smooth Operator isn't linked to stealth. Its linked to security alarms. Enemies can turn hostile, but if you kill them fast enough, you can prevent them from tripping security alarms. The game rewards you for quick and efficient killing.

So,the only major difference is the 500 XP bonus of "Ghost". That may seem unfair until you realize that there are more stealth augments than gunplay augments.

Stealth augments:

-3 PP in legs
-4 PP in skin
-1 PP in eye
-7 PP in cranium

-15 total

Gunplay augments:

-4 PP in dermal
-5 PP in arms
-3 PP in torso

-12 total

Thats a difference of 15k XP, equivelent to 30 "Ghost" XP bonuses. So, the question you should be asking is "How many times does the game reward the "Ghost" XP bonus?"

DieBySword
25th Aug 2011, 15:30
Smooth Operator is linked to the alarm like you said but in a run&gun scenario you are more likely to turn on an alarm before you kill the guards, sometimes guard a lvl above or below you might be alerted and turn it on, the same with security cameras that spot you or dead bodies.

There are a lot of Ghost bonus chances in the game, but it can be exploited by any type of player. The first Sarif industry mission for example. You go up the ladder to the went and get the bonus and then return outside and take down the guards.