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HUMANREVOLUTION500
21st Aug 2011, 23:05
i mean we could customize the skin tone, and the sex of JC or alex d... why not for adam.... why do you think eidos decided not to add customization for adam.... do you think it was to make the story smoother or something.. i want to know why, i really don't care that much, just wondering...

when i saw the first picture of adam jensen (white guy, spiky hair, cool glasses) etc.. at first i thought maybe it was just the "default" model or just a fill-in model for adam jensen being a customizeable character.. but then down the road i started to think... a female "ADAM"....

and then i realized that we will not able to customize adam skin tone or sex etc. etc... and that the adam i am seeing in the pictures is the adam i will have to play as...

why do you think this was

Lirezh
21st Aug 2011, 23:09
a) prerendered scenes (sadly in low resolution) don't allow that
b) more voice acting required
c) in general a lot more work and they'd have a harder job to make the game as immersive

thanos
21st Aug 2011, 23:10
too much effort for the amount of time they had to work on the project.

HUMANREVOLUTION500
21st Aug 2011, 23:10
a) prerendered scenes (sadly in low resolution) don't allow that
b) more voice acting required
c) in general a lot more work and they'd have a harder job to make the game as immersive

what do you mean... is that they couldn't do cutscenes with customizable characters..

Mobius32
21st Aug 2011, 23:12
I wouldn't mind some customization, but it's probably harder to implement these days, what with the higher amount of detail and better textures. Being able to chose between a few different faces, like in DX, would have been nice. But I'm ok with how Adam looks so it's not a huge loss to me

pha
21st Aug 2011, 23:12
Alex D. was a very bland character, like a lego figure, but for a detailed protagonist like Jansen, a female option would take too much time to write a coherent story without continuity problems, if you think about love interests etc.

As for his appearance... I believe it's mainly because of pre-rendered vids. They had to keep things consistent.

Lirezh
21st Aug 2011, 23:20
what do you mean... is that they couldn't do cutscenes with customizable characters..

Do you know what "prerendered" means ?
It means it's a pre rendered movie, that's hardly possible with any sort of visual customization

SethSteiner
21st Aug 2011, 23:22
To be honest I don't think it is that hard to make a female option, I think it is possible but maybe I am wrong I will see in the game. But maybe it would have been better to make a female in the first place, since male main characters are everything but creative. But this is not about that topic.
Pre-Rendered Vids are a good point but why having them? If they aren't looking better than the game itself, there isn't a reason for them and there would be the possibility to individualize the character. It's a little bit sad that this isn't possible.

Mobius32
21st Aug 2011, 23:27
To be honest I don't think it is that hard to make a female option, I think it is possible but maybe I am wrong I will see in the game. But maybe it would have been better to make a female in the first place, since male main characters are everything but creative. But this is not about that topic.
Pre-Rendered Vids are a good point but why having them? If they aren't looking better than the game itself, there isn't a reason for them and there would be the possibility to individualize the character. It's a little bit sad that this isn't possible.

To make a female option, they would have to design and animate a new character with unique movements, unless you want her to move like a dude. Plus, they would need a male character model for Meegan (Adam's ex), as well as new voice actors for both to record hundreds of lines, which takes time and money

SethSteiner
21st Aug 2011, 23:31
I know but it's not like that isn't possible and as I said better would be to just have a female main character, that would be nearly something new and groundbreaking.

Mobius32
21st Aug 2011, 23:35
I know but it's not like that isn't possible and as I said better would be to just have a female main character, that would be nearly something new and groundbreaking.

Having a female main character is a completely different argument. Personally, I think it would be hard to pull off in a DX game, but it could be interesting.

But the customiaztion thing is obviously possible, seeing as many other games have it. I was just trying to point out that it is indeed difficult, since your previous post made it sound like you thought it would be easy.

Ajax
21st Aug 2011, 23:49
Having a female main character is a completely different argument. Personally, I think it would be hard to pull off in a DX game, but it could be interesting.

But the customiaztion thing is obviously possible, seeing as many other games have it. I was just trying to point out that it is indeed difficult, since your previous post made it sound like you thought it would be easy.

There's no doubt that it's difficult. But it's not like his expectation was uncalled for. Both Bioware and Bethesda games have the ability to play as a female character. In Bioware's case, their female characters have just as much depth in them as the male character (just as much dialogue, different animations, etc.), so it's not impossible by any stretch.

Also, can you please explain your idea that a female main character in a Deus Ex game is "difficult". I admit I'm completely new to the series, but that statement sounds pretty sexist.

Cee
21st Aug 2011, 23:57
Having a female main character isn't groundbreaking by any stretch. It's not common, but it's been done before plenty of times.

I can't really see a reason why it would be hard to pull off a female character in a Deus Ex game.
In each and every one of them there are already female soldiers.
I suppose it might be hard to find the female equivalent of JC/AJ's voice type, though.

Jack Dandy
21st Aug 2011, 23:58
tl;dr
Developers don't have all the time in the world to make games.
Better to spend more time on a coherent story and fun gameplay then to appease some people who are upset over not being able to play as a girl. Deal with it. :cool:

1134
22nd Aug 2011, 00:02
Because this is a game about killin', sneaking around and spy stuff.... not a game about cooking and whining.

SethSteiner
22nd Aug 2011, 00:07
Having a female main character isn't groundbreaking by any stretch. It's not common, but it's been done before plenty of times. (...)

I didn't say it's groundbreaking, I said it's nearly groundbreaking because females are rarely seen in a major role. Of course they exist but not to that extend that you could say that it's common and that is a problem. Some could they "I don't care, deal with it" but some don't want to deal with it. I don't think it's easy to do an option since you have to work on it but hey, it's the definition of a job to work and it's not like this would cost significantly much. It would pay of in many ways even on a long term. Oh and 1134, that wasn't the most mature answer.

1134
22nd Aug 2011, 00:09
If I were to imply that you were a douche would that be mature?

Jack Dandy
22nd Aug 2011, 00:16
it's the definition of a job to work and it's not like this would cost significantly much.

Cool
Except IT WOULD. Both in money & TIME.
New VAs, ways to tie the story around the different genders, etc. It's not as simple as you apparently think.

Cee
22nd Aug 2011, 00:20
I don't think it's easy to do an option since you have to work on it but hey, it's the definition of a job to work and it's not like this would cost significantly much. It would pay of in many ways even on a long term.
You might be understating the amount of money involved. You need extra voice work for female Adam Jensen, extra CG work for the prerendered cutscenes, extra modeling & animating, etc. All of those people doing that need to be paid.

Not to say that I wouldn't like a female protagonist in a Deus Ex game, because I would. But it's a lot of work (and probably therefore money) to have two versions of a decently fleshed out protagonist like Adam Jensen will likely be.

Also, unlike Bioware games, there doesn't seem to be any large amount of female Deus Ex fans. That might change with HR, though, somehow.

balanced
22nd Aug 2011, 00:48
Story based reasons. It won't come till near the end of the game, but Adam is a woman and a man, revealed and transformed as Eve. Last level you play as Eve.*

*Completely made up, but you never know do you?

Agiel7
22nd Aug 2011, 00:48
As far as the female PC goes, that would be something, given Jensen's relationship with Megan Reed. But alas, that would be too much work to record new lines of dialogue and making the new cutscenes.

However, I totally think it's entirely possible Eidos Montreal can make a DLC mission pack where you play as Yelena Federova or something or that augmented girl Adam worked with in the comics.

Ajax
22nd Aug 2011, 01:17
I don't think it's easy to do an option since you have to work on it but hey, it's the definition of a job to work and it's not like this would cost significantly much. It would pay of in many ways even on a long term. Oh and 1134, that wasn't the most mature answer.

Sorry dude, but you're definately underestimating the amount of work and costs.

There was even an article about this in gameinformer. The interviewed devs said they would love to have full female main characters, but the extra time and money needed was too significant. The developer of Crackdown 2 even said that planned on it. They even had three different models half-completed. But because of time restraints, they had to cut them, and instead focus on the male models that were more-than-half completed.


I didn't say it's groundbreaking, I said it's nearly groundbreaking because females are rarely seen in a major role. Of course they exist but not to that extend that you could say that it's common and that is a problem. Some could they "I don't care, deal with it" but some don't want to deal with it.

As a male gamer, I say AMEN

alanschu
22nd Aug 2011, 02:18
i mean we could customize the skin tone, and the sex of JC or alex d... why not for adam.... why do you think eidos decided not to add customization for adam.... do you think it was to make the story smoother or something.. i want to know why, i really don't care that much, just wondering...

You couldn't customize the sex of JC.

rokstrombo
22nd Aug 2011, 03:08
Are you guys so similar to Adam Jensen/Batman that a few tweaks here and there would actually make him more relatable? (ie. "I relate to the extreme badassedness and robotic arms and legs, but I have red hair! Cannot relate!")

I'm bitterly disappointed that I can't play as a gay Jamaican dude. If only Eidos Montreal had allowed me to design Adam, I might be able to appreciate the global, transhumanist themes and carefully-crafted cyberpunk near-future for what they are (a detailed reflection of my physical appearance). Alas they didn't, so I will really have to stretch my imagination to take in this title.

Rindill the Red
22nd Aug 2011, 03:31
The following list may be either reasons or side effects of Jensen's set design.

1. A strong/memorable lead character for branding. (Eidos has a habit of turning franchises into movies -- Lara Croft, Mr. 47)
2. Pre-rendered in-engine cutscenes
3. Budget-time constraints
4. Strong PC characterization and narrative continuity -- (basically, the art/writing/design team spent A LOT of time and effort into sculpting a truly remarkable experience as Adam Jensen as he exists in the story and game-world)

Rindill the Red
22nd Aug 2011, 03:38
Are you guys so similar to Adam Jensen/Batman that a few tweaks here and there would actually make him more relatable? (ie. "I relate to the extreme badassedness and robotic arms and legs, but I have red hair! Cannot relate!")

I'm bitterly disappointed that I can't play as a gay Jamaican dude. If only Eidos Montreal had allowed me to design Adam, I might be able to appreciate the global, transhumanist themes and carefully-crafted cyberpunk near-future for what they are (a detailed reflection of my physical appearance). Alas they didn't, so I will really have to stretch my imagination to take in this title.

Mi de ongle one dat tink ah Jamaican Jensen wudda awesome?

Zorvan
22nd Aug 2011, 04:27
I know but it's not like that isn't possible and as I said better would be to just have a female main character, that would be nearly something new and groundbreaking.

Don't know when you started gaming, but female main characters are no longer "new" or "groundbreaking".


Mi de ongle one dat tink ah Jamaican Jensen wudda awesome?

Yes, you are.

Mosillivo
22nd Aug 2011, 05:05
a) prerendered scenes (sadly in low resolution) don't allow that
b) more voice acting required
c) in general a lot more work and they'd have a harder job to make the game as immersive

Prerendered scenes are absurd in this day and age; the end movie can easily take up 300mb in space for a small intro that is only played once in the game. This doesn't mean much to the PC gamer as drives are up in terrabytes... but when you're compressing a game to fit into a single HD-DVD / Blu-Ray (and given that if the console can't have it, the PC version won't) the "excuses" start to run out.

This is not to say that prerendered scenes aren't easier to develop; but I notice that many games use their current engine (instead of a high definition engine) to render the scenes and then add in a few post rendering effects to "justify" not using the engine to do it in the first place. In some cases the movies contain a large amount of vector graphics (think flash games), which can be compressed extremely well, yet they bloat the size by using mpeg (I believe) compression.

Mosillivo
22nd Aug 2011, 05:10
As far as the battle of the sexes go:

To make a female option, they would have to design and animate a new character with unique movements, unless you want her to move like a dude. Plus, they would need a male character model for Meegan (Adam's ex), as well as new voice actors for both to record hundreds of lines, which takes time and money

Storywise? Only reason to complain there is franchising... it does suffer a bit when it seems that "anyone" could fit in role; but often the necessities we claim that a character must have aren't as rare as we perceive... we amplify those characteristics in the individual and give him a more paradigmatic image.

But in the end, we're still talking about a single character in the whole game... it really should be "relatively easy" in comparison to creating an entire game; there really is no reason to not add in a lesbian relationship simply to "save money" (or remove excuses)... and with a comparative base, getting the model to WORK in the world should be easier.

The issue that these companies stomp on is fairly simple "What's my Cut". Why bother doing it if the additional income is negligible or even slightly less? This is not the same as saying they lose money from making the game; simply that the money they'd gain doesn't justify putting in the extra effort.

jtr7
22nd Aug 2011, 05:13
And why does he have a name? Why can't I give the protagonist any name I want, give him/her a custom voice and regional dialect, a custom place of birth and family tree for more nationalities and bloodlines, and have the AIs speak to him/her according to all my customizations in all available languages? And why can't I get custom versions of all the advertising and boxart? I didn't ask for this!

TheYouthCounselor
22nd Aug 2011, 06:02
WGWyJgVw9zs

Answered.

Ajax
22nd Aug 2011, 08:09
^^^^ link to said fan artwork please? :)

Kameleon
22nd Aug 2011, 08:20
....why do you think this was?

I don't think at all about this. I will play the actual game while you prepare to play it.

JCpies
22nd Aug 2011, 08:38
Customizable skin tone, hair colour and maybe some customization on the colour or detail of his arms/clothes would have been cool.

Doom972
22nd Aug 2011, 09:35
Maybe they are saving it for a DLC.
I hope someone will make alternative skins - free ones that is.

Mobius32
22nd Aug 2011, 16:23
^^^^ link to said fan artwork please? :)

A quick Google search brought this up:

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lbl6cetNyK1qer56zo1_500.jpg

I gotta say, I didn't think having a female Adam-type character would work, but this looks pretty good. I stand corrected

Enraged Penguin
22nd Aug 2011, 17:12
*Snip*

I gotta say, I didn't think having a female Adam-type character would work, but this looks pretty good. I stand correctedI think it would have worked better to be honest. For one thing it would be far more original (not that the concept behind Adam isn't original enough) purely by being female. You never see this sort of role played by a female lead in games, even though it's far more plausible in many cases. The social elements in this game are a good example. Some of the NPC's reactions to Adam's more aggressive stances are a bit off. For example the guy at the main desk in the police station. In real life that guy probably would have dragged Adam over the desk and stomped the life out of him. His reaction would be far more plausible if Adam was instead a female character, because although he's angry his morals would prevent him from wanting to harm her.


I don't mind that he's a male character though. Quite the opposite in fact, I'm male myself so it will be far more immersive. The only "problem" I have with Adam's actual design is that he looks far too much like Neo from the Matrix lol. At least with his coat on. I think he looks pretty good with just the flak jacket on though, that's a far more original design. Especially due to the bulky size of it, it makes his augmented arms look almost frail and weak (although obviously they're far from it), which is a look that I can honestly say I've never seen an art director go for with a video game "hero" character.

rokstrombo
23rd Aug 2011, 06:03
I think it would have worked better to be honest. For one thing it would be far more original (not that the concept behind Adam isn't original enough) purely by being female. You never see this sort of role played by a female lead in games, even though it's far more plausible in many cases. The social elements in this game are a good example. Some of the NPC's reactions to Adam's more aggressive stances are a bit off. For example the guy at the main desk in the police station. In real life that guy probably would have dragged Adam over the desk and stomped the life out of him. His reaction would be far more plausible if Adam was instead a female character, because although he's angry his morals would prevent him from wanting to harm her.

That's an interesting perspective, and I agree that a female protagonist could be an interesting change. I also agree that the NPCs are often very aloof given Adam's aggressiveness. My main concern with a female protagonist is that I think other characters may respond differently to a woman who displayed the same aggressiveness as Adam (perhaps they would be more prone to testing her?). This might make for a unique and interesting game in this genre (ie. why is this woman persisting with this aggression if it creates so many additional problems for her?), but it would also introduce gender roles to the list of themes explored by the game, and this could have the effect of diluting the writers' message. There are only so many conflicts that one character can sincerely care about, and I think male/robot Jensen probably has his fill without trying to challenge gender roles on top of this.