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Lawtonn22
18th Aug 2011, 16:54
Hi all,
I've been a long time observer of things on here & wanted to ask a question to anyone who may have played a demo at a games convention:

Are there takedowns that can be done from cover, especially if Adam is lurking round a corner (like arkham asylum's batman) or can they only be instigated out of cover ?.

Btw, I haven't been this stoked for a game in one he'll of a long time, really looking forward to getting my mitts on this next week :worship::worship:.

___



*Moderator Edit/Updates*

The Zero Takedown Ghost series is complete.
===

After watching the so-called "stealth" walkthroughs of Deus Ex Human Revolution on YouTube over the last few days, I was puzzled why these gamers thought shooting everything that moved with a tranq dart and pummeling everyone in the face (and not hiding their bodies) was considered stealthy. I've decided to respond with a stealth challenge I call "Zero Takedown Ghost."

Video 1: Game Prologue / Attack on Sarif HQ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94TuvveHexI

Video 2: Sarif Manufacturing - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5-UGIPkeHI

Video 3: Detroit Police Station - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8UgOcx4QkU

Video 4: DRB Transmission - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qJ0DbRQxi4

Video 5: FEMA Factory / Detention Center - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho8_GjXia74

Video 6: Hengsha - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXNYIO6gA5I

Video 7: Tai Yong Medical - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WgI79KzFRw

Video 8: Picus Communications - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvOkRtRNz2Q
*If you only watch one of these... this is the one. :)

Video 9: Detroit Revisited - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orGjn7_t3kY

Video 10: Hengsha Revisited & Stow Away - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqZhkxdPyYU

Video 11: Singapore / Omega Facility - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTtF9GFxgMo

Video 12: Panchaea - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SJWEbnPCB8

For those of us who are Splinter Cell veterans (I was known as goliathvt back in the day, ran SC-SpyWorld, made the SCDA full stealth video series for those curious), one of the favorite community challenges was to "ghost" a level, meaning to complete a mission not only by remaining undetected, but also getting through without disturbing anything.

For Deus Ex HR, that means no takedowns, no stuns/bolts/bullets/shells fired, and, if you're hardcore, you might even try to close vents, doors and such behind you whenever possible so that you leave absolutely no trace.

While stealth in DXHR is not quite as robust as SC, it's pretty close, so I've begun an attempt to complete the game as a Zero Takedown Ghost. The only exceptions I'm allowing myself will be if something like a dialog cutscene or a boss fight pulls me out of the game loop and requires me to become detected.

Eidos has given us a gorgeous, lengthy and challenging game... a rare gem in today's game market.

Update: The video series is complete! A Police Station Stealth Alternative will be posted soon.

Biggus
18th Aug 2011, 17:01
Yes when you have no obstacles, no round the corner. And you can punch through the weakened wall. Look for the steam manual

sahdev_92
18th Aug 2011, 17:01
You can't do takedowns whilst you're in cover, only when you're out of it.

Piflik
18th Aug 2011, 17:07
No takedown from cover. There was a video walkthrough where one of the devs was asked this and he said no.

Solid_1723
18th Aug 2011, 17:08
If I remember correctly, you can initiate a takedown while in cover, but there's no special animation for it. You will just leave cover automatically and stand out in the open afterwards.

EDIT: I just checked it. It's like I stated above.

Lawtonn22
18th Aug 2011, 19:02
Thanks for the replies, I thought I may have seen a vid where Jensen exits cover and smacks the living bejesus out of some poor sod but I wasn't sure, waiting for this to come out is getting very tiresome now.

thanos
18th Aug 2011, 19:05
A pity they did not make the pimp slap a takedown.

miseryguts
18th Aug 2011, 20:46
Or do others here think that the actual sound of the takedowns & the enemies crumpling/hitting the ground are WAY TOO LOUD! it looks bizarre to me when a takedown is performed on one enemy with accompanying bone crunching foley sound effects several feet behind another enemy that raises not so much as an eyebrow! especially when they seem to react to almost all other environmental disturbances.

Then again it probably is just me.

flunkorg
18th Aug 2011, 22:03
A pity they did not make the pimp slap a takedown.

The pimp slap is a takedown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02tfbGkXzsU&feature=related
(I cannot figure out how to get videos to show on the forums)

thanos
18th Aug 2011, 22:14
The pimp slap is a takedown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02tfbGkXzsU&feature=related
(I cannot figure out how to get videos to show on the forums)



I stand corrected.

It is amuseing to see a takedown down in the proper fashion known as pimpslapping.

flunkorg
18th Aug 2011, 22:15
I stand corrected.

It is amuseing to see a takedown down in the proper fashion known as pimpslapping.

Wonder what if feels like to get pimp slapped by Adam.(with his aug arms)

Wouldn't it be like getting hit by a truck?

thanos
18th Aug 2011, 22:17
It would likely be about the same as getting hit by a tractor trailer.

MaxxQ1
19th Aug 2011, 06:36
The pimp slap is a takedown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02tfbGkXzsU&feature=related
(I cannot figure out how to get videos to show on the forums)

Just copy and paste the video ID number from the URL into the reply window, highlight it, then click the YouTube button at the top of the reply window. It'll look like this (but without the spaces):

[ YOUTUBE ] 02tfbGkXzsU [ / YOUTUBE ]

Spaces removed:

02tfbGkXzsU

Mobius32
19th Aug 2011, 16:27
The pimp slap is a takedown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02tfbGkXzsU&feature=related
(I cannot figure out how to get videos to show on the forums)

I know how my first few hours will be spent :)

thanos
19th Aug 2011, 16:30
I bet you do.

111BLACKLIGHTNING111
23rd Aug 2011, 23:41
Look. I dont really hate third person. The thing that bothers me is that the game isnt consistently third or first person. But thats not the thing that really bothers me. Its the takedowns. They arent just short and simple. They arent in real time, and I feel like Im watching some cheesy kung fu clip. The screen flashes black (distracting and annoying) and then if you are too close to objects that would intrude upon the kill animation, you are teleported sometimes a good 5 feet. Enemies stand around and dont interfere in the slightest. An enemy could be right behind you with a perfect shot and he just stands there. This really really ruins the game for me. Wouldnt it for anybody? I suggest that someone make a mod that fixes this problem by making the takedowns occur twice as fast, or the animation is abridged/shortened, and then instead of happening in a cutscene, it happens in real time so that you have to use them at the right time in the right place (for example, if someone threw a grenade you wouldnt be invincible, or if you were completely surrounded by enemies). For those in the audience that want a little more, the camera could be switched between third and first person either in the options or ingame. Shouldnt be that hard to accomplish and it will be very popular. There are alot of people that would love this mod. You could even make the cover system in full third person. You might think this isnt possible, but either making the cover system like Killzone or simply placing the camera in the eyes of the character its pretty simple. What do you think? I know there will be naysayers out there but before you say "no it cant be done" think about how it can be done. I only know the bare basics of code and dont know how to mod. But lets say x code says follow jenson position of head. There is a code (y) that says follow jensen in this position when takedowns/cover system take place. Wouldnt it be as simple as copy paste x into y? So that you still get the same cover mechanic/takedown effect but you simply can move the camera around in FIRST PERSON (or if you choose, third person) in real time?. I dont think it would be that hard. Think about it. I would suggest if you like this idea, to spread it like a virus. Copy and paste this and send it everywhere so that someone, somewhere, will make a mod like this. Who knows? Maybe it might be an official DLC if the devs see it.

And yes I realize that the takedowns are compensating for the fact that you cant do alot of them (limited energy) by making you invincible during them. However, this could be tweaked as well.

[FGS]Shadowrunner
24th Aug 2011, 08:35
David Cameron not too fond of "pimpslapping" right now... This game needs to make sure it makes clear the non-lethal option and make clear it is not GTA.

djtanng
24th Aug 2011, 17:02
The takedowns seem to take too long. I loose my sense of position, and it throws me off guard. Why can't I just bop them on the head and be done with it. Why take me out of the game?

mariofranck
24th Aug 2011, 17:11
I keep stumbling on threads consisting in dumb complaints. This would be one of them. You're insulting the developers asking for implementations based upon your personal tastes and tons of childish complaints. Stop it already, game studios are not Santa Claus.

PS: Santa Claus isn't real.

djtanng
24th Aug 2011, 17:30
I keep stumbling on threads consisting in dumb complaints. This would be one of them. You're insulting the developers asking for implementations based upon your personal tastes and tons of childish complaints. Stop it already, game studios are not Santa Claus.

PS: Santa Claus isn't real.

It's called constructive criticism from a fan. Game developers understand that this comes with the job. They WANT to know what we think, so they can make improvements on the next game. That's what this forum is for.

vallux
24th Aug 2011, 17:32
Either way, you guys are hilarious.

Nyysjan
24th Aug 2011, 17:34
we have been asking that very same question, there has been no satisfactory answer (one was so we could see how our AJ changes when he gets new augs, wich was no implemented in the game, another one was that we would not be able to get into our character without 3rd person camera).

maybe the devs missed their true calling of making movies :p

mad825
24th Aug 2011, 17:36
Could be worse, I'm sure QTEs would make things much more annoying.

atheelogos
24th Aug 2011, 18:59
You can't do takedowns whilst you're in cover, only when you're out of it.Yes you can. If you at the edge of the cover you can hit the person who's walking toward you. For example open a door and get into cover and wait for someone to walk through it. You can do the takedown while in cover.

Sharkey1337
24th Aug 2011, 21:02
I haven't had any luck of getting tackdowns while in cover. I've waited behind a concrete barrier, let a guy walk right up to me and had to get out of cover to do any kind of melee. Wish it was like in Splinter Cell Conviction where Fisher actually performs a sweet takedown from cover, usually by closelining the chump first before slamming him into the wall.

sygyzy
24th Aug 2011, 21:42
I really wish you could do a takedown from cover. It's really awkward the way they designed the game. Picture this: you are hiding behind a crate and a guy is walking over to you. To attack him, you have to release the cover button (right mouse) and stand up. He is instantly alarmed then you have to rush to take him down.

ocstew
25th Aug 2011, 09:50
Nope. You can just stay crouching until he passes your cover and press T, while still in cover.

eastcoasthandle
25th Aug 2011, 13:21
I thought that non lethal take downs allows NPCs to recover over time? So far they haven't and was wondering what's the difference between lethal and non lethal if they never get up?

sajin
25th Aug 2011, 13:28
I thought that non lethal take downs allows NPCs to recover over time? So far they haven't and was wondering what's the difference between lethal and non lethal if they never get up?

Their allies can wake them up (and pretty fast).

eastcoasthandle
25th Aug 2011, 16:49
I've yet to see NPCs get up from a non lethal take down. Besides, over time, they should be able to get up on their own. So I have to ask what defines a lethal vs non lethal take down if NPCs never get up?

loudent
25th Aug 2011, 17:16
I've yet to see NPCs get up from a non lethal take down. Besides, over time, they should be able to get up on their own. So I have to ask what defines a lethal vs non lethal take down if NPCs never get up?

Mechanically the only difference is that non-lethal take-downs can be woken up by their friends and allies. Although, if you knock out everyone in an area (or at least drag their bodies where there are no patrols) it ammounts to the same thing.

vertigomaniac
25th Aug 2011, 19:46
The takedowns seem to take too long. I loose my sense of position, and it throws me off guard. Why can't I just bop them on the head and be done with it. Why take me out of the game?

True. Breaks the flow of the game.

Sealgaire
26th Aug 2011, 00:43
I was a little disappointed with how augs were implemented and particularly with take downs. Adam just doesn't feel like a badass cyborg what with his chubby 8 year old running pace (chubby 8 year old being chased by a bear with sprint upgraded) and needing to scarf a candy bar or take a breather after taking out a grunt in melee. I actually calculated how well Adam can run and jump based on the aug descriptions and fully upgraded he can sprint at 16 mph and jump about 36 inches (the 9 feet stated in the description includes his height I assume as he doesn't jump anywhere near 9 feet, he jumps 3 and then climbs over stuff. These figures would be underwhelming for an amateur high school athlete, much less a state of the art cybered up killing machine.

Another thing that really bugs me is that it seems the devs really didn't want you killing guys. A lethal take down gives you less XP (why?)and it makes FAR more noise than a nonlethal takedown, making it useless for a stealth character. You know that part in one of the first trailers where Adam eviscerates that guy sleeping in front of a computer before hacking it? Try that in the actual game and at least 1 guard, usually 2 come rushing in after apparently hearing you from 25 feet away through a closed door. A nonlethal takedown in the same situation attracts no attention. I don't understand why the devs felt the need to give so many disadvantages to lethal without giving any incentive to use it. The argument that nonlethal entails more risk is invalid if you're not an idiot about hiding bodies. And even if an unconscious guy is found and woken up, the consequences aren't really any more severe than if a dead body is found.

Overall alot of the time I get the impression of fighting with the game mechanics when trying to play the way I want to, even though lethal and nonlethal are supposedly both valid choices.

eastcoasthandle
26th Aug 2011, 02:58
Mechanically the only difference is that non-lethal take-downs can be woken up by their friends and allies. Although, if you knock out everyone in an area (or at least drag their bodies where there are no patrols) it ammounts to the same thing.

This seems to be the case. I was hoping that the developers would figure out how to allow NPCs to recover from non lethal take downs. If they are hidden they simply spawn back to their original location in the game. Having to go back to an area 2-4 hours later to see the same NPC still on the ground takes the immersion out of the game. If nothing else, a simple "reset" of NPCs to their original locations once you leave an area or town.

Keiichi81
26th Aug 2011, 05:05
That seriously has me annoyed/puzzled. Why is it that punching a guy in the stomach, slammng him in the face and knocking him to the ground is completely silent but running a guy through the stomach with your arm blades, slitting his throat and knocking him to the ground makes almost as much noise as a gunshot? Why is it that the only way to silently kill someone is with a supressed firearm (which you don't get until well into the game)?

In my opinion, a stealth takedown (from the back/without being seen) should always be silent, regardless if it's lethal or non-lethal.

Or am I just missing something here?

Sev
26th Aug 2011, 05:30
Game balance, lol.

nathanj
26th Aug 2011, 05:34
didnt realize that lethals werent silent. actually im not even sure how to do a lethal take down i just found out how to do the regular ones by accident when i pressed the q button once.

i love this game to death but they seriously have some fetish with nonlethal gameplay. first off you get more experience for using nonlethal. why are they penalizing people praxis points especially since nonlethal is easier. the only really OP lethal weapon ive found is the 10mm with laser and antiarmor upgrade and even then you need to get an actual headshot. you can taze or dart someone anywhere and it works. i started playing lethal but switched to dart gun and stun gun because they are so effective. one shot and plenty of ammo and both are silent to boot.

Keiichi81
26th Aug 2011, 05:46
Game balance, lol.

What does it balance? How does it balance it? Either way, you've still got to hide the body unless you want an alarm triggered. Yeah, incapacitated enemies can be woken back up again if they're discovered, but if you're hiding your bodies (as you should be regardless if you're using lethal or non-lethal tactics) then it's a non-issue. And as taking people out with non-lethal takedowns is so much safer than with lethal takedowns, I'd say it's actually unbalanced as is.

The choice between lethal and non-lethal should simply be a matter of playstyle preference (eg, if you're trying to be a pacifist).


didnt realize that lethals werent silent. actually im not even sure how to do a lethal take down i just found out how to do the regular ones by accident when i pressed the q button once.

i love this game to death but they seriously have some fetish with nonlethal gameplay. first off you get more experience for using nonlethal. why are they penalizing people praxis points especially since nonlethal is easier. the only really OP lethal weapon ive found is the 10mm with laser and antiarmor upgrade and even then you need to get an actual headshot. you can taze or dart someone anywhere and it works. i started playing lethal but switched to dart gun and stun gun because they are so effective. one shot and plenty of ammo and both are silent to boot.

I know on the console versions, you have to hold down the takedown button for a lethal to trigger (as opposed to just briefly tapping it for a non-lethal takedown). I'd assume it's the same way on the PC.

And yeah, I'm trying to play a non-pacifist stealth-combat character and I feel like I'm being penalized for killing enemies instead of incapacitating them, both in regards to XP and in how much more difficult it is to kill and remain undetected.

Sev
26th Aug 2011, 05:59
I realized my first answer wasn't really insightful. Let me tell you a tale explaining the real reason.

Someone at some point for some reason during the development decided this:

We want everyone to play in a non-lethal manner.

So to encourage that they added the "Smooth Operator" and "Ghost" in game bonuses but not "Rambo" and "Blood-thirsty." But those can still be obtained while playing in a lethal manner. Wasn't good enough.

Ok, so let's add some steamworks achievements, that focus on non-lethal game style but nothing for the opposite.

Good! Now we're getting somewhere! But is it enough?

Nope. Let's make sure the stun gun is one hit = instant knockout weapon on any human non boss enemy in the game, but ensure that normal weapons have trouble with armor.

That's all great, but now I have an even better idea. Get this, let's, in fact, give a 20 xp bonus on every take down!

BRILLIANT!. But wait, what if they do a lethal take down instead of a non-lethal one?

Well then let's make sure that lethal take-downs make lots of noise, making them worthless for stealth game play!

No, not good enough. Give an additional 20 xp for non-lethal take downs of every sort! That's right, let's not just discourage other game styles, let's penalize everyone who isn't sticking strictly to non-lethal play-style!

Giving bonuses based on consistency and sticking to a single method like say, Alpha Protocol? That's stupid. Giving the gamer complete freedom in regards how he attempts to approach a situation and making them all valid like in Deus Ex 1 and 2? Ridiculous!

I demand that everyone not playing in a single specific and rigid manner, i.e. not using non-lethal take-downs at all times, be penalized and have his character progress hampered and downright gimped.

And so the terrible xp system of Deus Ex Human Revolution was created.

Tjeerd84
26th Aug 2011, 06:00
The reason is gameplay and the way the developers wanted to shape this game. In my world I already created an explanation for myself. The augmentation system is aiding your actions, because takedowns also take down one energy bar. It's not that those takedowns are easy to perform, or that Adam is the perfect ninja. The augmentations are setup to do two kind of things: 1. Take a person down soft and quite, which makes it too soft too be lethal or 2. Take a person down more violent but there is not enough energy left to keep it quite.

Remember that without augmentations a real life person could never takedown another person this fast and at all times without making some noise. They could have included a silent lethal takedown, but that one should cost two energy bars.

nathanj
26th Aug 2011, 06:18
The reason is gameplay and the way the developers wanted to shape this game. In my world I already created an explanation for myself. The augmentation system is aiding your actions, because takedowns also take down one energy bar. It's not that those takedowns are easy to perform, or that Adam is the perfect ninja. The augmentations are setup to do two kind of things: 1. Take a person down soft and quite, which makes it too soft too be lethal or 2. Take a person down more violent but there is not enough energy left to keep it quite.

Remember that without augmentations a real life person could never takedown another person this fast and at all times without making some noise. They could have included a silent lethal takedown, but that one should cost two energy bars.

having studied krav maga and some other martial arts i can assuredly tell you that you can instantly kill someone much faster and with much less effort than they show with their "AWESOME TAKEDOWNS". in regards to silent takedowns, one of the non lethal "silent" takedowns where you grab the guys arm punch him in the chin and flip him is anything but silent. this is just hollywood style flashy fighting that no self respecting martial artist would actually use. it just looks pretty to some people.

the developers are clearly trying to push you towards nonlethal gameplay by such extreme measures it isnt even funny. 20 extra xp for every person you take down nonlethaly is going to cost you 2 praxis points at least.

Sealgaire
26th Aug 2011, 08:22
There really are some baffling design decisions in the game, this being one of them. Why go to all the trouble of making animations etc. for lethal takedowns and then not only not give the player an incentive to use them, but actively penalize them for doing so.

ZIGS
26th Aug 2011, 08:50
It's completely nonsensical to reward non-lethal gameplay with more xp. I don't know what they were thinking

SearingWind
26th Aug 2011, 21:58
I love this game, through and through. But one thing I HATE is that fact that I can break someones arm and crack their skull (i.e. knock them out) 2 feet from someone and they do not notice. But if I happen to stab them through the heart and instantly kill him everyone in a 50 meter radius get alerted. It might make some sense if it was just a "we don't want you kill people so we're going to dick you in the ass" but a silenced pistol blowing someones brains out has the same amount of noise as the knockout. Really no reason for this as all, other then diminish the fun of someone who might want to play a slightly unhinged character who likes to stabby stabby people (however the mentally unhinged players who headshots everyone is A-OK).

Shralla
26th Aug 2011, 23:05
Yeah, ruining your fun is clearly the only possible reasoning they could have had for that decision. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that unconscious enemies can be woken up.

GreyTemplar
26th Aug 2011, 23:34
Yeah, ruining your fun is clearly the only possible reasoning they could have had for that decision. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that unconscious enemies can be woken up.

Exactly. They have to balance it out if they are going to give you a choice of what to do. Sure you can knock them out and be silent about it, but can be woken up. OR you can kill them, and they don't wake up, but the draw back is, guards are alerted to your position.

Danik0226
26th Aug 2011, 23:37
I don't like the fact that the lethal take downs are penalized in terms of exp. I also think that the notification range is a tad absurd. I suggested in my own post that the notification range be dropped to something more reasonable and add an exp lethal bonus. Non-lethal would still be superior in terms of stealth play, but you wouldn't be completely prohibited from lethal take downs due to the exp and notification mechanic.

Locutus of BORG
27th Aug 2011, 00:00
Yeah, ruining your fun is clearly the only possible reasoning they could have had for that decision. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that unconscious enemies can be woken up.

Do they ever wake up on their own, do they always need someone else to do it?

Originally I took the lethal approach b/c I was afraid of ppl getting back up after a few minutes like they would in the MG games. After I while I found non-lethal to be practically just as permanent as lethal, so now I'm currently going that route since it's safer and earns more exp.

I'm still fairly early in my PT though.

SearingWind
27th Aug 2011, 04:43
Yeah, ruining your fun is clearly the only possible reasoning they could have had for that decision. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that unconscious enemies can be woken up.


Honestly there's no other logical conclusion that can be drawn from this. Sure, unconscious enemies can be woken up but then why do silenced ranged weapons have the same affect as a knockout? It also makes the suspension of disbelief while playing the game completely evaporate when I can break someones arm then crack his skull, or shoot him in the head through a helmet (both of which would be loud as hell IRL) two feet from his buddy and get no response, but as soon as I stick him with a blade everyone within fifty yards knows "something isn't right here."





Exactly. They have to balance it out if they are going to give you a choice of what to do. Sure you can knock them out and be silent about it, but can be woken up. OR you can kill them, and they don't wake up, but the draw back is, guards are alerted to your position.

Again, then why does a silenced pistol shot to the head have the exact same affect as a knockout? That's also a incredibly poor why to "balance" a game it out as it makes zero ******* sense and defies all logical conventions. This isn't super meat boy, some sort of realism is expected.





I don't like the fact that the lethal take downs are penalized in terms of exp. I also think that the notification range is a tad absurd. I suggested in my own post that the notification range be dropped to something more reasonable and add an exp lethal bonus. Non-lethal would still be superior in terms of stealth play, but you wouldn't be completely prohibited from lethal take downs due to the exp and notification mechanic.


Agreed. For a RPG your choices are extremely limited if you actually want to gain the maximum amount of exp. Almost criminally so. Personally I do not see any reason that non-lethal take downs should be any superior in terms of stealth or give any different exp rewards. It should be a favor option for players to choose.





Do they ever wake up on their own, do they always need someone else to do it?

Originally I took the lethal approach b/c I was afraid of ppl getting back up after a few minutes like they would in the MG games. After I while I found non-lethal to be practically just as permanent as lethal, so now I'm currently going that route since it's safer and earns more exp.

I'm still fairly early in my PT though.


I've never had someone wake up ever from a knockout. I believe the only difference is that another guard can wake them out, but for all intents and purposes, they are the same.



__________________________________________________________________________________________


It's a shame really, with how good this game is there always seems to be there little things that make absolutely no sence and really diminish the fun factor of the game unless it's played exactly the way the creators wanted your too. At least it FEELS that way, and that is never a good sign.

nathanj
27th Aug 2011, 07:13
the nonlethal "silent" takedown where you punch someone then break their arm and then flip them over so they land on the ground with a thud should be far noisier than stabbing someone in the back with a blade. this is a stupid system that should never have been put in.

SearingWind
27th Aug 2011, 14:59
the nonlethal "silent" takedown where you punch someone then break their arm and then flip them over so they land on the ground with a thud should be far noisier than stabbing someone in the back with a blade. this is a stupid system that should never have been put in.

agreed. My biggest problem with it is having the me suspension of disbelief shattered by it.

Brian175
27th Aug 2011, 15:38
They shouldn't have made a difference. Matter fact, the system of waking people up is stupid. I actually didn't know it could be done because it never happened anyways because being smart while using stealthy takedowns required making sure bodies weren't in others patrol range. The punishment for a body being discovered should be an alarm, which is way huger than, "Oh **** they might get woken up by his buddy." Which then would make lethal and non-lethal merely contextual. I remember in Deus Ex taking a non-lethal approach actually took more skill because it required you get in close with a stun baton.

I really wish the system was like Conviction. It shouldn't take a bar, and it should take place real-time, ie you'll get shot the **** up if you try to take down 1 or 2 people with 5 other people in the room. That would neglect the idea of running into a room taking everybody down, which would neglect having to take an energy bar away to prevent this. I can sneak up behind someone and choke them out as is without needing augmentations and an energy bar.

On top of that, and this is a different discussion and going to be unpopular I think the game should have been purely 3rd person or at least mostly 3rd person rather than mostly 1st person. I think the game designers made a compromise keeping it first person to soothe over the original DX players. Keep in mind I'm one of them as I bought the original when it first came out before it was GOTY. I'm just imaging this game as an augmented Conviction or Assassin's Creed. There's a reason the format is popular with stealth games. All the annoying cinematics would suddenly just flow with the gameplay. Not to mention augments like the leg one could make Jensen visually more agile. Just my opinion of course.

Vinter
28th Aug 2011, 10:05
Hello everyone. This is my first post on these boards. I just had to come and whine about how lethal takedowns aren't silent.
I don't even care about the Exp, I'm trying to play through the game the way I imagine Jensen would, and the way I imagine is the best way.
That way does NOT include letting terrorists and gangbangers live. They will hurt people, which makes it illogical to allow them to stay alive.

So I want to use lethal takedowns, because it's more difficult getting close enough to do that. I'm playing on the hardest difficulty too.
I have a suppressed 10mm Zenith, which is as silent as a non-lethal takedown, has more range than the stun gun, and I have a suppressed sniper rifle, as I pre-ordered, which gives me better range than the tranq rifle, no bullet drop, faster reloads, and again, as silent as a non-lethal takedown.
So, to all of you people saying it's balanced because knocked out enemies can be woken up; please explain how shooting someone has no downside.

When I get close enough to a target, and use a lethal takdown, why am I not rewarded?
Instead, I get less Exp, I make noise which alerts everyone, AND I lose a battery! How is that balance?!

When I can stand on the other side of the city, and use my sniper rifle to pick people off without them ever noticing me, what is my incentive to get close and use my takedowns?
If I didn't lose any power you could justify it as conserving ammunition, but no, it's more of a waste using a takedown than it is shooting someone. After all, which is more rare? Ammo for the 10mm pistol, or chocolate bars?
There is something seriously wrong with that.


So fix it Eidos. Patch this up and make lethal takedowns silent. And while you're at it, remove the energy cost from both the lethal and non-lethal takedowns.
Give us a reason to use the system.

Daisah
28th Aug 2011, 10:34
No melee weapons -.-

Fox89
28th Aug 2011, 11:09
When I get close enough to a target, and use a lethal takdown, why am I not rewarded?
Instead, I get less Exp, I make noise which alerts everyone, AND I lose a battery! How is that balance?!

I used lethal takedowns a few times, generally when the enemy knew where I was and I needed quick, efficient lethal dispatches. It doesn't cost ammo and it means you have to reload your weapon less. Great when used in conjunction with other weapons, not so useful as your sole method of attack.

Also, they're badass. You'll have a lot more fun if you play the game as it's meant to be played: creatively and to make you feel like as awesome as possible, rather than trying to max out your XP. I tried to get as many augs as I could, but I didn't compromise the way I wanted to play to do that.

Also your point about energy bars being rarer than ammo is pretty moot, as you have an infinite amount of energy for your takedowns as the last energy pip recharges. I spent large chunks of the game using that bar and that alone. Takedown, do a bit of exploring/other fighting whilst pip recharged, takedown, rinse and repeat. Worked like a charm.

Vinter
28th Aug 2011, 11:27
Also your point about energy bars being rarer than ammo is pretty moot, as you have an infinite amount of energy for your takedowns as the last energy pip recharges. I spent large chunks of the game using that bar and that alone. Takedown, do a bit of exploring/other fighting whilst pip recharged, takedown, rinse and repeat. Worked like a charm.

Yes, that would be all fine and dandy... If takedowns were the only thing that used energy.
But they aren't, are they?

From what you're saying it seems like you play all guns blazing. I go for "Ghost" and "Smooth Operator" so if I'm ever in a position where I'm running out of ammo for my pistol, I pretty much ****ed up and need to restart anyway.
They should have added a knife or something, then we wouldn't be in this position.

Fox89
28th Aug 2011, 11:37
Yes, that would be all fine and dandy... If takedowns were the only thing that used energy.
But they aren't, are they?

From what you're saying it seems like you play all guns blazing. I go for "Ghost" and "Smooth Operator" so if I'm ever in a position where I'm running out of ammo for my pistol, I pretty much ****ed up and need to restart anyway.
They should have added a knife or something, then we wouldn't be in this position.

Guns blazing? Not at all. I was a smooth operator most of the time. My weapon of choice was the stun gun, mixed in with some takedowns. Yes it's not the only thing that costs energy, but what other stealth related options were there to activate? The three other manual augs I got were the Typhoon (not really a stealth thing), see through walls (only rarely used, and for brief periods) and cloaking (again, only used very briefly).

None of these things were used so prolifically that they used up all of my energy. And there were also recharge speed increases to help compensate if you were draining it too quickly with these augs. Incidentally, whilst I did get some additional energy bars, I never actually increased the recharge speed. So even the default charge rate was just fine for my stealthy approach. And, from time to time I would need to quickly do something like: 5 seconds cloak followed by takedown. And on those occassions I would prepare by scarfing down an energy bar first. I mean come on. Sure, energy bars weren't as prolific as ammo, but they weren't exactly rare. If you struggle with energy consumption still I recommend investing in the recharge speed upgrade augs.

eastcoasthandle
28th Aug 2011, 14:39
This seems to be the case. I was hoping that the developers would figure out how to allow NPCs to recover from non lethal take downs. If they are hidden they simply spawn back to their original location in the game. Having to go back to an area 2-4 hours later to see the same NPC still on the ground takes the immersion out of the game. If nothing else, a simple "reset" of NPCs to their original locations once you leave an area or town.

Apparently, they do have a system in place that resets NPCs if obsticles get in their way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcbyu_z8AVY&feature=player_embedded

So it now begs the question why wasn't this used to auto wake NPC's who where knocked out?

eastcoasthandle
29th Aug 2011, 16:32
help? Can I have some?

mattlistener
29th Aug 2011, 19:38
I would like to point out that the non-lethal takedowns involve blows to the head, preventing screams, while the lethal takedowns involve blows to the torso, allowing a death scream.

This alone doesn't justify why the non-lethal takedowns are effectively near-silent, but I don't see real-world grounds for complaining that putting a sword through someone alerts everyone in 50 meters.

I agree that the XP awards are somewhat too tilted toward non-lethal when considering the game on its own, but when you consider it within a 1st-person shooter genre that's all about the killing, I can see why they felt they needed a variety of incentives for players to explore that style of gameplay.

It's not so tilted that they're "forcing" players into non-lethal though. You can totally play and defeat the game playing lethally. It's a challenge sometimes, yay. The augs you miss out on by the end are the ones you're not using anyway.

I think the core issue is that the scrolling bonus numbers are majorly motivating for many players. I feel it too. Players who would rather be playing lethally resent being "pushed" into non-lethal but go that way anyway because seeing bigger numbers works more magic on them than their own preferred playstyle.

Exia
30th Aug 2011, 09:58
My first post here and I would also like to put my view across, which mirrors a lot of you here.

I do also think it is a little ridiculous how the lethal take downs are not silent! Some of the bone crunching ones you hear from the non-lethal sound devastating, but are still silent!! What gives!

We can have silenced lethal weaponry, but not quiet kills? For instance that move where you grab their head and spin them, effectively snapping their neck. How is that not silent?

If they did patch this according to the community, definitely making any take downs silent is the way to go in my opinion.

Did they not also mention there are various ways to play and you choose your method? Would it really hurt to have kills done without being noticed rewarded as equally as the silent take downs, I mean we still have to hide the bodies, although no one will be waking them up I do realise.
If they truly wanted to stick to there core advertisement where you can play any style you want I think they need to revise the experience mechanics, because this is false advertisement if they steer you in one direction.

Oh has anyone noticed the double take down where you sweep one persons legs and elbow him in the chest is animated a little incorrectly :-S

remmus
30th Aug 2011, 19:44
So fix it Eidos. Patch this up and make lethal takedowns silent. And while you're at it, remove the energy cost from both the lethal and non-lethal takedowns.
Give us a reason to use the system.

personally I find neither are broken, since lethal takedown means a guy stays dead it comepnsates for being none silent

and the energy cost is to prevent this scenario

A) Run up to guard
B)use takedown
C)repeat A & B until all guards are knocked out/dead

it mean you have to be tactical, that you need to think when it´s best to use a takedown

xAcerbusx
31st Aug 2011, 05:30
No melee weapons -.-

What do you call the three-foot-long arm-swords jutting out of your elbows?

Exia
31st Aug 2011, 08:07
What do you call the three-foot-long arm-swords jutting out of your elbows?

"Take down eye candy", since we cannot use them actively :p

mattlistener
31st Aug 2011, 20:23
It appears to be impossible to do a double-takedown on a pair of opponents if one is sitting and one is standing. Is this as intended I wonder?

MissStabby
31st Aug 2011, 22:52
The thing i miss most about the "stealthy (lethal/nonlethal) takedowns" is that there's no way to grab a living person from behind and drag it around the corner before KO/killing him. (like in SC)
Also i miss the fact that Adam can't even whistle or use a clicker to attract guards.


So picture this situation:
you are at a corridor with a corner.
Around the corner there's a camera watching the entire corridor, but it also sweeps left&right.
In the hallway there's a guard patrolling along the lenght of the next section of corridor.
(for instance the infront of the room where you find the male scientist at the ranch)

To take out the guard without alarming the camera you now have to:

A. Get both the pattern of the sweeping camera and the guard to be as desynchronised as possible, waiting could take up to 5 minutes. And then take it out when he's close to the corner but then after taking it out having to drag his ass behind the corner before the cam sees it.

B. search the facility for a box or any other loud item, throw it to a place you want the guard to go, and hope none of it's 3 other friends come running from other directions.

C. shoot a (silenced)gun to get the guard to investigate and then also hope it still comes without it's friends.


I would rather prefer being able to grab the guard when the camera isnt looking and tug it behind the corner and execute/melee him there.

Also there were a lot of times where i was hiding behind a corner for a guard to comearound that same corner,
and then when trying to melee him before i could see me ended up "teleporting" both me and the guard
in the center of the corridor to show those "AWESOME" animations...
(ending up in the center of the corridor setting of alarms or showing myself to the other guards and getting myself killed)

Some takedowns that i miss in this game:

Minimalistic takedown
Being absolutely minimalistic, used for quick disposal without overly complex wrestling moves.
being triggered in places that are saturated with guards and generally have a high security

Croutched takedown
a takedown that (if lethal) uses jensen's blades to cut the achilles (heel) tendons of the guards and have them drop to the floor. (after that he can go for the KO or kill)
This takedown gets triggered when you are croutched while initiating the takedown.

Corner takedown
A takedown that starts with grabbing a victim from around a corner and dragging/throwing him behind the corner for a unseen takedown/bodydrop. After that he can just go for the KO/kill
Also to be combined with the croutched takedowns.

Vent takedown
A takedown that can be initiated while sitting in a vent. Dragging the guard into the vent for some stealthy disposal. (currently when i press the takedown button it just "teleports" me out of the vent)

ogre/minigunwielding/semiboss takedown
This takedown is used on the toughest enemies. This involves some extra animation or a more elaborate fightscene. (like taking the guy's minigun out of its hands and wacking him KO with it)

Push/ledge takedown
A deadly takedown that involves pushing/throwing a guard over the siderail or ledge and have gravity do the rest.

Double chair+standing takedown
Currently there's no way to dispose a sitting and standing enemy at the same time, you have to them to get both of them to stand up. This takedown would involve jensen doing the headbutt thing but then more suited to sitting players. the animation/teleportation would be aligned to the sitting player then.


I think those takedowns could really benefit the game.

SOLO COLPO
2nd Sep 2011, 22:03
Why does the pacifist player get more pts from takedown?

You get 30 from a lethal and 50 from a nonlethal, with the extra bonus of 20, from Merciful Soul.

Snowranger19
3rd Sep 2011, 12:31
As far as takedowns go anyway...

How are non-lethal so silent? Either you punch the guy in the face, break his arm (as he yelps in pain), or suffocate him as he kicks and lashes about. Seems loud...

Then lethal seems like they would be quiet.. just walk up to the guy and slice his neck with your arm blade. But no.. he has to stab both shoulders, make the guy scream in pain, then stab him Aliens style thru the gut/chest. :mad2: Why not just snap his neck or slice his throat?

Small rant I guess.. just was a little :eek: when I started my lethal playthrough and saw how.. fake.. the lethal take down was.

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
3rd Sep 2011, 12:35
It's a game, it doesn't have to be 100% realistic. You don't have to use any takedowns to finish the game.

http://s3-ak.buzzfed.com/static/imagebuzz/web03/2010/4/5/23/haters-gonna-hate-32402-1270523864-286.jpg

Rainhands
3rd Sep 2011, 12:37
It's called 'balance'.

Snowranger19
3rd Sep 2011, 12:37
No, I agree. I guess I was just purely shocked.. I thought I was being a ninja until I saw how psycho Adam goes with his arms blades.. I had to pause it and think for a second.