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View Full Version : Can you lure enemies with visual/acoustic clues?



P4NCH0theD0G
16th Aug 2011, 05:03
I haven't seen a lot of game-play, but some of what I've seen has raised a few questions I couldn't find an answer to:

In one of these "Game-Play Pillar" videos, the Stealth one I think, the voice over said they hide the body better this time, because they're trying to be stealthy. In another one, the Exploration approach, the main character picked up a crate to get access to a ladder and subsequently a rooftop access. And a third one showed the main character planting a mine, then retreating further back, letting an enemy see him and lured him into the explosive trap.

The "hiding the body" implies that the enemy AI will react to visual clues, i.e. dead body. Picking up a crate shows the ability to directly interact and change the environment. The mine-trap showed that the AI reacts to the presence of the main character in a relatively realistic way and thus can be lured by the player.

My questions:

How accurate is the AI's ability to discern changes in the environment?
Can you use this to lure enemies to a certain place, set them up for traps etc. even when they are oblivious of your presence?
How realistic is the game when it comes to these changes in the environment (like gore, blood, bullet holes, drag marks, broken locks, carried/thrown objects, moved crates etc.) and will the enemy AI react to those, even without being aware of the main characters presence?
Will there be an active mechanic for the player to lure/mislead enemies through visual/acoustic clues without exposing himself?

What I'm talking about is this:

I'm hiding behind cover. There are two guards in the room with me. They have no idea I'm there. One is guarding the exit. I do not want to kill them, but want to sneak past them. I cannot cloak. Can I in some way make them move to a certain point in the room without exposing myself? Can I knock on a wall, whistle or make another noise they will react to? Can I throw a bottle or some other object picked up from the environment to lure them away to investigate? Can I shoot/smash a window to let in some fresh air and make them suffer for not wearing shoes in a high-rise hijacked by terrorists?
Should I decide to kill one of them, after all, and stab him with my Auggie Blades, will he bleed? If I shoot him with my silenced weapon, but miss with the first shot, will the bullet-hole remain in the wall? Will there be high-velocity blood-spatter for Dexter to analyze? If I drag him into a dark corner and hide him, will he leave bloody drag marks on the ground? If I step into the blood, will I leave bloody footprints? Will the other guard, should he see either the bullet hole, the blood spatter or the pool of blood come in to investigate, follow the drag marks to find his dead buddy's body, or the footprints to find his doom? When will he sound an alarm?
And should I find a crate at one corner of the room, pick it up, carry it elsewhere and gain access to the mezzanine above, will the patrolling guard notice that the crate is not where it's supposed to be and investigate?

Thanks.

The77s
16th Aug 2011, 05:10
tl;dr

I'm lazy.

But answering a question to the title of the Thread, I'd imagine you can to an extent, not sure exactly what could lure them, I never tried it whilst playing the Beta, maybe someone who did will be able to give you an answer, but, then again, it was a Beta, it might have not been in it yet.

GARrus
16th Aug 2011, 05:29
Sometimes they notice if you left a door opened or something. They react to bodies from a pretty good distance and it can get annoying. They notice the sound of a door or vent opening if they're close enough. I never tried throwing barrels around to see if they react, though if they do they'll probably just trigger the alarm. Barrels and **** don't just fly out of nowhere. There are no blood marks from dragging. Bullet splatter oh yes and it sounds nasty. If you do a lethal takedown they just flatout die. I'm unsure in the crate idea usually I knock them all out before I do anything like that. Everything gets hacked not unlocked so no they don't notice it. I'm unsure about reactions to bullet holes as I knock them out for max points. They do react if you shoot of a round near them and miss, usually by activating the alarming and either looking for you or shooting. Can I in some way make them move to a certain point in the room without exposing myself You could Knock someone out in that area and when someone sees it they'll all congregate, so yes.

Yeah in one spot on the Sariff Industries level there's a very difficult part in the beginning where there's three guards. I just let one of them see me and come over to investigate and knocked his ass out. Make sure to save often when you try stealth when you get the game, it can be pretty difficult when you're formulating a strategy, and you'll probably fail alot before you succeed.

Sorry, can't tell you much more I focus on knocking them out for points not sneaking past, leaving them there annoys me so maybe someone else knows those details. Keep in mind that I'm taking these experienced from a eight month old preview build that isn't even a BETA these things could have very well changed while they "polished" the game.

tZer
16th Aug 2011, 07:37
No blood-related things. Sound is in there, things to pick up and throw are limited, but there.

ocstew
16th Aug 2011, 08:05
Sound is easily there. Bodies, yep. But blood? That's a bit too far don't you think? Bullet holes too. That's a bit too extreme.

Zorvan
16th Aug 2011, 08:31
Sound is easily there. Bodies, yep. But blood? That's a bit too far don't you think? Bullet holes too. That's a bit too extreme.

I can tell you that if I'm guarding a place and find fresh blood and bullet holes, I'm going to be triggering an alarm and trying to find who's responsible. So not too extreme in the slightest.

ZakKa89
16th Aug 2011, 09:13
You can throw boxes/items to distract guards.

Biggus
16th Aug 2011, 10:58
what bothers me - so far all enemies follow the same routine when they find knocked out body which allow player
K/O them and pile them up one after another

Dr_Bob
16th Aug 2011, 11:27
You can throw boxes/items to distract guards.

I kept throwing trashcans to lure the guards into the bathroom before I eliminated them.

Skillet
16th Aug 2011, 13:45
Sound is easily there. Bodies, yep. But blood? That's a bit too far don't you think? Bullet holes too. That's a bit too extreme.

Go play Hitman. If you kill an enemy by shooting or stabbing them, and then drag the body away, they leave a trail of bloody smears on the floor. If a passing NPC sees the blood, they go and alert a guard who will then follow the trail of blood to the body and call it in.

Bullet holes are a bit extreme, however. I can't think of a single game where bullet holes are more than a decal on the wall.

As for sound... in the leaked beta demo, I had a clever moment during that first warehouse mission where I was on a sort of catwalk and picked up a box to throw across the room. The sound alerted enemies and a couple of them converged on the area. It works very well for leading enemies to a certain area so you can sneak past.

P4NCH0theD0G
16th Aug 2011, 14:15
Thanks a lot.

Yeah, I was thinking of games like Hitman, Splinter Cell, Metal Gear Solid and such. Crysis 2 had the "pick up and throwing" thing, but enemies almost never reacted to anything not thrown at their heads... Well, this sounds good. Getting impatient, now...

dimljajvbu
18th Aug 2011, 14:21
From the leak.. They react to bodies, yes, but not to their friend (who was standing in the same place for 3 hours) suddenly vanishing, leaving only his gun on the floor.
Also they seem very bad at seeing through glass of any kind.
And the see-a-body-go-investigate-become-another-body-on-the-pile thing is silly. If you saw two people suddenly die/become unconscious by going one way, you'd likely go the other way, rather than go investigate their bodies...

VectorM
18th Aug 2011, 14:53
And the see-a-body-go-investigate-become-another-body-on-the-pile thing is silly. If you saw two people suddenly die/become unconscious by going one way, you'd likely go the other way, rather than go investigate their bodies...

Instead of pointing out the obvious and acting all smart and ****, how about giving us a clue about how this can be avoided? As in, programmed in the actual AI. How will you make it differentiate a body, from a pile of bodies? How should he act? Instead of investigating the bodies, he investigates what exactly? The other side of the base? How will the AI decide that?

Seriously, I HATE it when people start comparing the way a human would react, to how an AI would react. It's a freaking video game AI, people, it doesn't posses your level of logical reasoning. All of that needs to be programmed in by someone else, which is not the easiest thing in the world.

Ashpolt
18th Aug 2011, 15:33
Seriously, I HATE it when people start comparing the way a human would react, to how an AI would react. It's a freaking video game AI, people, it doesn't posses your level of logical reasoning.

You do realise what AI is, right? It's Artificial Intelligence. If it's not acting like a human would (assuming it's intended to be a human) then it's a fault in the AI.

Yes, yes, it's hard to program, etc etc (though the example you've picked up on can't be that difficult, given that the AI already includes spatial recognition and the ability to recognise bodies: "If number of dead / unconscious bodies (nd) in area of x is 2 then 40% chance to choose another route: if nd is 3, then chance is 70%, if nd is 4 or greater, chance is 100%" etc) and you can argue if you want that it won't have a significant negative impact on the game (which I wouldn't disagree with) but to claim that it's not bad AI - especially on the basis that AIs should not react as a human would react - is ridiculous.

Biggus
18th Aug 2011, 16:50
Instead of pointing out the obvious and acting all smart and ****, how about giving us a clue about how this can be avoided? As in, programmed in the actual AI. How will you make it differentiate a body, from a pile of bodies? How should he act? Instead of investigating the bodies, he investigates what exactly? The other side of the base? How will the AI decide that?

Seriously, I HATE it when people start comparing the way a human would react, to how an AI would react. It's a freaking video game AI, people, it doesn't posses your level of logical reasoning. All of that needs to be programmed in by someone else, which is not the easiest thing in the world.

*First of i am no comparing to human response
*I am no programmer, but i can say it should be more then one response to given situation. For instance call for backup, retreat, take cover. Thief games had more variety in this aspect, not to mention Splinter Cell
*This AI routine is not your fault so calm down would you kindly :)

VectorM
18th Aug 2011, 17:03
but to claim that it's not bad AI - especially on the basis that AIs should not react as a human would react - is ridiculous.

I never claimed that it's not bad AI (compared to a human), nor did i ever say that it should not react as a human would.

However, you can't reasonably expect any AI in a game like this to use the same logical reasoning that a human would. It just can't do that.

Now, things should be improved and ways around problems like this should be found eventually, but when people complain about this stuff, they just point out the stupidly obvious and I just find that to be incredibly annoying.

Ashpolt
18th Aug 2011, 18:39
However, you can't reasonably expect any AI in a game like this to use the same logical reasoning that a human would. It just can't do that.

Not all the same logical reasoning, no, but what we're talking about here isn't exactly complex, especially given all of the rest of the AI systems already in place. I could program (without graphics, animations, etc obviously) that particular script in qBasic in about 2 minutes, and I'm a terrible programmer, and qBasic is a very weak tool. I'm pretty sure the talented folks at EM, using powerful programming language and tools I couldn't even begin to comprehend, could incorporate it with relative ease.

thanos
18th Aug 2011, 20:03
Try doing this,taser,stun, knock out or what ever, then leave the body next to a corner, then taser the next fool who comes along and stares at the body.

That should be fun.

Skillet
18th Aug 2011, 23:56
Try doing this,taser,stun, knock out or what ever, then leave the body next to a corner, then taser the next fool who comes along and stares at the body.

That should be fun.

Watch this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L4KxBoS-mg

With how advanced games are these days, that shouldn't even be possible, to be honest. If an enemy sees another enemy get hit with a tranquilizer dart, he should at least recognize the direction that the shot came from and react to the presence of a hostile. Not become a lemming and walk up to the exact same spot his buddy just got shot from.

The really sad part is that this is also relatively possible with a silenced sniper.

I know of other games such as Splinter Cell that have AI that responds to shots that miss them within a certain radius... especially if they hit another enemy.

People aren't complaining that the game is unrealistic, they're complaining that the AI (in these instances) seems far less advanced than it should. The AI in open combat is relatively smart in this game... but when sniping them with any kind of silenced weapon, they're downright stupid.

This is pretty much the only problem I have with the AI at all. So if it doesn't happen in the final release, I'll be happy overall.

alanschu
19th Aug 2011, 01:19
Not all the same logical reasoning, no, but what we're talking about here isn't exactly complex, especially given all of the rest of the AI systems already in place. I could program (without graphics, animations, etc obviously) that particular script in qBasic in about 2 minutes, and I'm a terrible programmer, and qBasic is a very weak tool. I'm pretty sure the talented folks at EM, using powerful programming language and tools I couldn't even begin to comprehend, could incorporate it with relative ease.

Well, your solution is a bit simple and would introduce a host of other AI related issues (particularly revolving around occlusions between the bodies). Though you could argue that that behavioural defect is superior than the current one.

Really good AI can be very tricky to program, and it seems like they've missed some aspects of threat assessment. What a shame :P

That said, it's not uncommon (unfortunately) for AI to be among the last things worked on (it was the case for Deus Ex too actually). It may have improved.

If we're lucky we grow to love this stupid AI the same way we loved the stupid AI of the original :D

thanos
19th Aug 2011, 01:26
Well in the mind of most people,if your buddy suddenly drops,they tend to assume you just had a stroke or so on, now in a war zone, your buddy drops and you here the crack of a rifle, most people tend to dive for cover.

But AI is only so smart and all,and likely is not programed with these facts.

Dungeoncrawler
19th Aug 2011, 02:17
If we're lucky we grow to love this stupid AI the same way we loved the stupid AI of the original

You mean like a guard tossing a nad, it hitting an object, bouncing back and blowing the guard up kind of stupid?

thanos
19th Aug 2011, 03:56
Or like certain titles where the dog would either A. carry the grenade back to its master,good boy! or B. Bring the grenade to you ? Bad dog !

singularity
19th Aug 2011, 08:36
Well in the mind of most people,if your buddy suddenly drops,they tend to assume you just had a stroke or so on, now in a war zone, your buddy drops and you here the crack of a rifle, most people tend to dive for cover.

But AI is only so smart and all,and likely is not programed with these facts.

This. With 8 years in the Army, and some time spent as a security guard (the longest 6 months of my life), I can happily tell you that making sure my friend/ team mate is alive is balanced with supressing/ neutralizing the threat that incapacitated him.

If I'm in the middle of Iraq, and my buddy drops like a sack of potatos, my initial reaction is skewed pretty heavily towards "neutralize the threat" and "don't get shot". If I'm sitting on my ass in an empty corporate office at zero-dark-thirty and all of a sudden my buddy just dropps, or I see him on the floor, my initial reaction would be skewed toward "oh my God, Tom - are you alright!" In scenario 1, I'd likely be avoiding the place where my friend was standing at all reasonable costs. In scenario 2, I'd likely be standing over my friend, checking for a pulse and administering CPR.

Believe it or not, even the most paranoid of security personel don't really anticipate a highly trained, well-equiped individual to break into their building with a tranqualizer rifle... it just doesn't happen as often as you'd think (even in America). Heart attacks, cancer and epilipsy are far more common reasons for your buddy to be on the floor.

Lirezh
19th Aug 2011, 10:31
The AI can always be "cheated on".
You soon learn the limitations of the AI and know how to fight it without giving it a chance.

Like if the AI players can not crouch (like in DX and DX:HR) you can easily abuse that fact if you want.

Regarding the main question I find the way the AI reacts mostly good/fun.
Like you shoot close to a "bad ass NPC", he and allies will draw weapons and run to your location (if outside of view) and search for the noise.
If they see you with a drawn gun or drawing one in such an alerted state they can turn hostile on you.
If you put it away fast enough they won't.

So it's all about putting an AI in an alerted state, they will go to the noise location if they did not see you actually making the noise.

From what I have seen the new AI has nice similarities with the original one (the good parts) and got a lot smarter.

P.S.
The non lethal takedown in the beta version was too silent.
You were actually able to make such a takedown directly behind another guard and they won't get alerted. But you hear a lot of loud sounds during the takedown which would alert anyone within 30 meters. (I mean it's not normal that bones break directly behind your back, eh ?)
I hope they tweaked that part.

MaxxQ1
19th Aug 2011, 15:42
Like if the AI players can not crouch (like in DX and DX:HR) you can easily abuse that fact if you want.

I'm not really contributing to the convo, but I just wanted to point out that the AI in DX most certainly *can* (and does) crouch.

thanos
19th Aug 2011, 16:42
You are however makeing a good point.