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iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 02:04
to quote the DX:HR trailer "Breaking news: the riots continue"

But what is the cause of the riots currently underway in the UK? a justified one as seen in DX:HR? nope, just a chance for the scum to go on a rampage, it seems. (there is a cause but it is not confirmed, and if it does get confirmed, it is still not justified)

What the **** is wrong with people? One day i shall become The punisher. but for now what is your vote?

should we bring in the army to sort out this mess?
i believe so.

iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 02:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46l9R5XUu_A
enjoy this funny deus ex vid if you dont care bout the riots

1134
9th Aug 2011, 02:27
Where's the option to just let the people do what they want?

Deus_Ex_Machina
9th Aug 2011, 02:27
Granted, I am not native to the United Kingdom, but from my limited understanding on the subject it seems a teenager was shot and killed and the riots are a response to this.

iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 02:29
Granted, I am not native to the United Kingdom, but from my limited understanding on the subject it seems a teenager was shot and killed and the riots are a response to this.

nope, a Man, 29yrs old. apparently armed.

Deus_Ex_Machina
9th Aug 2011, 02:32
Granted I am not native to the United Kingdom, but from my limited understanding on the subject, it seems a teenager was shot and killed and the riots are a response to this.

iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 02:33
Where's the option to just let the people do what they want?

Thats what games like deus ex are for, vent your anger at children, hookers, bums or thugs. if thats ur thing.
it doesnt give you an adrenaline rush. but boxing, extreme sports ect does.

1134
9th Aug 2011, 02:35
Option 3 - Destroy Area 51.

iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 02:36
option 4 - hack area 51

KingNL
9th Aug 2011, 03:22
yeah let's believe the police, if they say the man they murdered was armed why should we question 'em?
v for vendetta is coming!

If he was armed then it's his own damn fault but I want an investigation or something.

Ascendant
9th Aug 2011, 04:10
Granted I am not native to the United Kingdom, but from my limited understanding on the subject, it seems a teenager was shot and killed and the riots are a response to this.

Wha? It wasn't some teenager, it was some gangleader who took a shot at the cops.

Romeo
9th Aug 2011, 05:12
Yes, I can't imagine the police simply walking up and shooting a teenager, you know, just 'cause. The fact that they say it was a suspect who was armed and dangerous makes sense (Someone threatens your life, you'll defend yourself). The riots arn't about that. The rioters just want a scapegoat to help explain their stupidity. Perhaps I missed the point where all the businesses and individuals whose property is being destroyed are responsible for the teen's death.

These people are idiots.

SladeTeck
9th Aug 2011, 05:23
to quote the DX:HR trailer "Breaking news: the riots continue"

But what is the cause of the riots currently underway in the UK? a justified one as seen in DX:HR? nope, just a chance for the scum to go on a rampage, it seems. (there is a cause but it is not confirmed, and if it does get confirmed, it is still not justified)

What the **** is wrong with people? One day i shall become The punisher. but for now what is your vote?

should we bring in the army to sort out this mess?
i believe so.

The Punisher eh? Hm...well, I suppose I'll help you. I'll be Vigilante to your Punisher and together we can destroy all crime with any force necessary. :thumb:

As far as the riots go, another reason for you to move to the US. Haven't had a huge riot since the Race Riots back in the day as far as I can remember. You still have to deal with the WBC, but that's not too bad.

Citizen_Snips
9th Aug 2011, 05:37
Yes, I can't imagine the police simply walking up and shooting a teenager, you know, just 'cause. The fact that they say it was a suspect who was armed and dangerous makes sense (Someone threatens your life, you'll defend yourself). The riots arn't about that. The rioters just want a scapegoat to help explain their stupidity. Perhaps I missed the point where all the businesses and individuals whose property is being destroyed are responsible for the teen's death.

These people are idiots.

Google, "Henry Glover." And if you have Netflix watch "Frontline: Law & Disorder". Changed the way I think of the police forever. I mean, two police officers shot this man and burned the body because he and his brother were looting from a grocery store after Hurricane Katrina (One was the police chief).

edit- not to mention: Danny Brumfield, Keenon McCann, Matthew McDonald, and the Danziger Bridge Incident. All happened after Katrina and all these people were unarmed mostly black men who either died or were seriously injured. The police reports were falsified and changed to say they were armed. Think about it. And back in the day police carried a "ham sandwhich" A.K.A a dirty gun they stashed on people they murdered. Don't believe me? Watch Frontline: Law & Disorder.

edit- #2 guess what was declared in N.O just before all happened? Martial Law.

Deus_Ex_Machina
9th Aug 2011, 05:51
First of all, I apologize for the double post. Don't know why that happened.

I looked more deeply into the matter and I discovered something interesting. The London Police task force that was responsible for firing on the 29 year old suspect, Mark Duggan, was part of Operation Trident, a predominantly white unit that specifically investigates the black community for gun crime in London.

I've always been aware of the racial tension in the United Kingdom, especially during the 80's and early 90's with Combat 18, but I had no idea that in 2011 there is a modern-day police unit in a modern-day metropolitan city that admittedly, outright states they are committed to racial profiling instead of focusing on the crimes of ALL people. The 29 year old suspect, Mark Duggan, may have been the aggressor and was probably deservedly shot by officers defending themselves, but Operation Trident is a big step back for civilized people everywhere.

I guess some things never change.

SladeTeck
9th Aug 2011, 05:55
First of all, I apologize for the double post. Don't know why that happened.

I looked more deeply into the matter and I discovered something interesting. The London Police task force that was responsible for firing on the 29 year old suspect, Mark Duggan, was part of Operation Trident, a predominantly white unit that specifically investigates the black community for gun crime in London.

I've always been aware of the racial tension in the United Kingdom, especially during the 80's and early 90's with Combat 18, but I had no idea that in 2011 there is a modern-day police unit in a modern-day metropolitan city that admittedly, outright states they are committed to racial profiling instead of focusing on the crimes of ALL people. The 29 year old suspect, Mark Duggan, may have been the aggressor and was probably deservedly shot by officers defending themselves, but Operation Trident is a big step back for civilized people everywhere.

I guess some things never change.

It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

Citizen_Snips
9th Aug 2011, 06:00
First of all, I apologize for the double post. Don't know why that happened.

I looked more deeply into the matter and I discovered something interesting. The London Police task force that was responsible for firing on the 29 year old suspect, Mark Duggan, was part of Operation Trident, a predominantly white unit that specifically investigates the black community for gun crime in London.

I've always been aware of the racial tension in the United Kingdom, especially during the 80's and early 90's with Combat 18, but I had no idea that in 2011 there is a modern-day police unit in a modern-day metropolitan city that admittedly, outright states they are committed to racial profiling instead of focusing on the crimes of ALL people. The 29 year old suspect, Mark Duggan, may have been the aggressor and was probably deservedly shot by officers defending themselves, but Operation Trident is a big step back for civilized people everywhere.

I guess some things never change.


In Christian iconography the "trident" is a symbol of the Devil. Believe what you wish, but a task force that says it's "looking for guns" is a smoke and mirrors for "we are going to do what we want with you n*****s because we don't trust you and we will shoot you if we 'think' you are armed."

ApertureRat
9th Aug 2011, 06:03
bored teenagers with nothing to do. Bring in Chuck Norris.
Have fun guys , I remember my first beer...

But seriously , we need FACTS. was he armed? did he threaten police? if so he probably deserved a bullet.
think if this happened in the U.S, nobody would give a **** . As I understand it, over there its an everyday occurrence.

One more observation. White people get shot all the time by police, cant really remember there being any riots over it.........

OOOOOO too much truth for anyone? shall I make you a hot drink and get your saftey blanket out?? :eek:

Romeo
9th Aug 2011, 06:48
First of all, I apologize for the double post. Don't know why that happened.

I looked more deeply into the matter and I discovered something interesting. The London Police task force that was responsible for firing on the 29 year old suspect, Mark Duggan, was part of Operation Trident, a predominantly white unit that specifically investigates the black community for gun crime in London.

I've always been aware of the racial tension in the United Kingdom, especially during the 80's and early 90's with Combat 18, but I had no idea that in 2011 there is a modern-day police unit in a modern-day metropolitan city that admittedly, outright states they are committed to racial profiling instead of focusing on the crimes of ALL people. The 29 year old suspect, Mark Duggan, may have been the aggressor and was probably deservedly shot by officers defending themselves, but Operation Trident is a big step back for civilized people everywhere.

I guess some things never change.
Occasionally the system thinks you've clicked twice, and it gets dumb and posts two seperate posts, thinking it's what you wanted. It's dumb, don't worry.

You are right, racial profiling has no place in a modern world, and that aspect needs to be dealt with accordingly. A cause for riots? Not really, as the rioters will make the police out to be the good guys in the end, thus undoing such a point.

Google, "Henry Glover." And if you have Netflix watch "Frontline: Law & Disorder". Changed the way I think of the police forever. I mean, two police officers shot this man and burned the body because he and his brother were looting from a grocery store after Hurricane Katrina (One was the police chief).

edit- not to mention: Danny Brumfield, Keenon McCann, Matthew McDonald, and the Danziger Bridge Incident. All happened after Katrina and all these people were unarmed mostly black men who either died or were seriously injured. The police reports were falsified and changed to say they were armed. Think about it. And back in the day police carried a "ham sandwhich" A.K.A a dirty gun they stashed on people they murdered. Don't believe me? Watch Frontline: Law & Disorder.

edit- #2 guess what was declared in N.O just before all happened? Martial Law.
Oh, I have no doubt that there are a few bad apples in police forces. Hell, in Vancouver we had people in arms over a fellow named Robert J. Never-the-less, until I do watch the films, I'm going to be incredibly skeptical. Most human beings don't simply walk up to another and fire on them unprovoked. There is typically a reason, be it panic, adrenaline or misinformation.

All I can say is if Frontline: Law & Disorder turns out to be like the 9/11 conspiracy videos, I'm going to be utterly pissed at you for wasting my time. ;)

bored teenagers with nothing to do. Bring in Chuck Norris.
Have fun guys , I remember my first beer...

But seriously , we need FACTS. was he armed? did he threaten police? if so he probably deserved a bullet.
think if this happened in the U.S, nobody would give a **** . As I understand it, over there its an everyday occurrence.

One more observation. White people get shot all the time by police, cant really remember there being any riots over it.........

OOOOOO too much truth for anyone? shall I make you a hot drink and get your saftey blanket out?? :eek:
Well, there are "facts", the question is whether or not people think they're trustworthy. Police stated he was an armed agressor and fired upon him. If you believe them, it's justified. If you don't, it's a hate crime. In either case, you are completely right: The riots are not based upon logic, just stupidity.

sajin
9th Aug 2011, 07:20
But seriously , we need FACTS. was he armed? did he threaten police? if so he probably deserved a bullet.


Fist story by police: Armed gangster, shooting at policeman from his car, who only survived by sheer luck (bullet got stuck in his walkie), was shot down in self defense.

Problem: Turns out that bullet in the walkie was a police issue bullet, and Mark Duggan, the gangster didn't shoot at all (allegedly, still pending investigation). His "gangster" status also is somewhat questionable: He's 29, married, father of three, was never in prison. However, a weapon was found on him, and he might have had connections to a gang called "Star Gang".

Whatever the truth, the initial police version has flaws. They also completely ignored the family of Mr. Duggan and their questions about his death. I strongly condemn the riots, but the case leading to them certainly needs more investigation.

JCpies
9th Aug 2011, 07:31
The shooting is no excuse for these riots, whether the shooting was wrong or not. It's led to anarchy, damn YOBs
destroying property, stealing goods, wasting money, ruining people's lives.

Brockxz
9th Aug 2011, 07:46
Fist story by police: Armed gangster, shooting at policeman from his car, who only survived by sheer luck (bullet got stuck in his walkie), was shot down in self defense.

Problem: Turns out that bullet in the walkie was a police issue bullet, and Mark Duggan, the gangster didn't shoot at all (allegedly, still pending investigation). His "gangster" status also is somewhat questionable: He's 29, married, father of three, was never in prison. However, a weapon was found on him, and he might have had connections to a gang called "Star Gang".

Whatever the truth, the initial police version has flaws. They also completely ignored the family of Mr. Duggan and their questions about his death. I strongly condemn the riots, but the case leading to them certainly needs more investigation.

And that's the reason to vandalize London? I start to think that people in UK are just morons in general and not only when they visit my country and start to drink till they don't know what they are doing (it seems for English drunks it is normal to piss all over our Liberty monument and after that to oppose the arrest and in the morning act like a saint who hasn't done anything).
I bet there was a reason police shot at him even if he didn't shot at them. How about carrying a gun? Did he had license to do that? Normally you can have a gun in your house in safe etc but not to carry it around whenever and wherever you want.

JCpies
9th Aug 2011, 07:55
And that's the reason to vandalize London? I start to think that people in UK are just morons in general and not only when they visit my country and start to drink till they don't know what they are doing (it seems for English drunks it is normal to piss all over our Liberty monument and after that to oppose the arrest and in the morning act like a saint who hasn't done anything).

That's the description of the average British "holidaymaker".

DisaFear
9th Aug 2011, 08:20
When I first saw the images of the aftermath, the first thing I though of was Deus Ex

SladeTeck
9th Aug 2011, 08:47
I gotta say, WTF people! WTF! Causing all this mayhem because of one person being killed, which may or may not be true, (the reason not the person dying), is just insane.

I was looking at some of the pictures online, burnt out cars, people looting a Carhart store, one person blatantly torching a car, most of these places look like a war zone. There's an 89 year old man's store that was sacked. All he did was give hair cuts, why would you hurt someone like that?! What could you even possibly steal of value from there?

This angers and saddens me. That people can go to such terrible depths, just for a little anarchy. I'm really, really, considering joining iloveyouXWORLD's vigilante crusade. When you mess with people that can't fight back, then you cross a line.

Ashpolt
9th Aug 2011, 09:06
The shooting is no excuse for these riots, whether the shooting was wrong or not. It's led to anarchy, damn YOBs destroying property, stealing goods, wasting money, ruining people's lives.

Completely agreed. Frankly, even if the police had lined up 15 teenagers in a row and executed them for no reason, it wouldn't be justification for the havoc and destruction that these thugs are wreaking on London.

Make no mistake though, this isn't about the guy that got shot. This is about a small group of morons who were looking for any old excuse to get violent, and then a larger group of morons who just went along with the crowd.

As for martial law? Seems extreme but you know what, if it'll stop this nonsense, then I have no problem with it.

Solid_1723
9th Aug 2011, 09:25
I gotta say, WTF people! WTF! Causing all this mayhem because of one person being killed, which may or may not be true, (the reason not the person dying), is just insane.

I was looking at some of the pictures online, burnt out cars, people looting a Carhart store, one person blatantly torching a car, most of these places look like a war zone. There's an 89 year old man's store that was sacked. All he did was give hair cuts, why would you hurt someone like that?! What could you even possibly steal of value from there?

This angers and saddens me. That people can go to such terrible depths, just for a little anarchy. I'm really, really, considering joining iloveyouXWORLD's vigilante crusade. When you mess with people that can't fight back, then you cross a line.

My thoughts exactly!

The fact that there are that many people who are just waiting for some "reason" to start burning cars and looting stores really makes you question humanity as a whole...

I hope the police goes in hard, like the U.S. Marshals and dispenses some harsh justice to those scum.

ApertureRat
9th Aug 2011, 10:11
****'em. Open fire.

ocstew
9th Aug 2011, 10:18
Remembers CGI trailer with crowds getting shot *a tear comes to my eye*

Bring in the real men.

JCpies
9th Aug 2011, 10:23
Where's Fedorova when you need her?

Solid_1723
9th Aug 2011, 10:27
They should dispatch a tetra grammaton cleric.

s.pasanen
9th Aug 2011, 10:43
Completely agreed. Frankly, even if the police had lined up 15 teenagers in a row and executed them for no reason, it wouldn't be justification for the havoc and destruction that these thugs are wreaking on London.

Yes, it is a much better idea to just simply try to reason with a goverment that executes 15 teenagers for no reason. I bet that a system wich is capable of killing 15 innocent teens just for fun is very open minded to any critics and suggestions, there would be no need for civil unrest since it only makes things worst..

JCpies
9th Aug 2011, 10:59
Yes, it is a much better idea to just simply try to reason with a goverment that executes 15 teenagers for no reason. I bet that a system wich is capable of killing 15 innocent teens just for fun is very open minded to any critics and suggestions, there would be no need for civil unrest since it only makes things worst..

No, he means the violence is unjustified because it's not aimed at the government. The victims of the riot are the members of the public, shop keepers and business owners who have done nothing wrong.

Now let's say the government did execute 15 teenagers for no reason, why should the riots attack and loot property instead of attacking the government?

Ashpolt
9th Aug 2011, 11:05
Yes, it is a much better idea to just simply try to reason with a goverment that executes 15 teenagers for no reason. I bet that a system wich is capable of killing 15 innocent teens just for fun is very open minded to any critics and suggestions, there would be no need for civil unrest since it only makes things worst..

I'm not saying that (in this purely hypothetical situation, I remind you) a government that executed 15 teenagers wouldn't deserve direct action - clearly, if things had got that fair, reason would've failed and some kind of more powerful action would be required. But nonetheless, the rioting, looting and arson we're seeing in London - which, let's not forget, is damaging public buildings and private property, it's not being targeted at the government or even the police - isn't ever going to solve anything, in any situation. My point is, it's not a protest over the death of an innocent, it's just mindless thuggery using that death as an excuse.

[EDIT] Yeah, JCPie got it bang on.

II J0SePh X II
9th Aug 2011, 11:40
First of all, I apologize for the double post. Don't know why that happened.

I looked more deeply into the matter and I discovered something interesting. The London Police task force that was responsible for firing on the 29 year old suspect, Mark Duggan, was part of Operation Trident, a predominantly white unit that specifically investigates the black community for gun crime in London.

I've always been aware of the racial tension in the United Kingdom, especially during the 80's and early 90's with Combat 18, but I had no idea that in 2011 there is a modern-day police unit in a modern-day metropolitan city that admittedly, outright states they are committed to racial profiling instead of focusing on the crimes of ALL people. The 29 year old suspect, Mark Duggan, may have been the aggressor and was probably deservedly shot by officers defending themselves, but Operation Trident is a big step back for civilized people everywhere.

I guess some things never change.

There has always been racial tension in the UK. Incidents like last week's happen all the time, but they never turn into full scale riots.

We are in a global depression with rising unemployment, static wages for those in work, and sky-rocketing food and fuel prices - it's the perfect storm. What is happening in London is not unrelated to what is happening in the Middle East I'd say. There are even similar protests in Israel to the one's seen in North Africa earlier this year.

The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

It's going to get worse when that phoney grass-roots movement the Tea Party (which is sponsored by billionaires btw) gets into power and starts messing things up.

s.pasanen
9th Aug 2011, 12:00
JCpie, Ashpolt. I belive they really are rioting against the government (even though they are mostly doing harm for the community), but once the pack mentality takes over things get out of hands, still the point is not what happens now but instead; what has happened that we have gotten this far that people are rioting in the streets. Its not just about that someone got killed, these things need more to get started, this must have been cooking for a while. Perhaps that guys death was like the last push for them to go rioting. Rioting is the way for the people to tell that “Everything is not okay! We need change!”. Im not saying rioting is the good way to do it but I am saying that I understand that the anger of the people has to come out somehow. Basicly this rage is pointed at the government but also for the community (wich’s athmosphere is mostly created by the government) even though the ordinary citizens are the ones that take the most of the damage. Rioting is not fair but neither is revolution, still humanity needs them both to communicate with the goverment and demand or change things, after all we are nothing but gregarious animals. If you don’t like riots then don’t give people a reason to go rioting.

I agree with II J0SePh X II, rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. And that is not healthy development at all.

iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 12:00
There has always been racial tension in the UK. Incidents like last week's happen all the time, but they never turn into full scale riots.

We are in a global depression with rising unemployment, static wages for those in work, and sky-rocketing food and fuel prices - it's the perfect storm. What is happening in London is not unrelated to what is happening in the Middle East I'd say. There are even similar protests in Israel to the one's seen in North Africa earlier this year.

The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

It's going to get worse when that phoney grass-roots movement the Tea Party (which is sponsored by billionaires btw) gets into power and starts messing things up.

i honestly believe that racial tensions & poverty are not the cause, i used to hang around with these type of people. they do as they please, the immorality on a daily basis, it wasnt right. One time i almost lost my life sticking up for a pu$$y who run away. around my area it is pretty bad, but london is much worse. i swear the number of scum is multiplying too. as i said in a post a few days back, retards raising retards. something needs to be done. and while the army are at it, they might as well take the peadophiles out. thats my view. its been 2 years since i lived that very different life, and im sure its only gotten worse. whats the solution? only one that seems suitable is martial law.... discipline & control.

s.pasanen
9th Aug 2011, 12:10
i honestly believe that racial tensions & poverty are not the cause, i used to hang around with these type of people. they do as they please, the immorality on a daily basis, it wasnt right. One time i almost lost my life sticking up for a pu$$y who run away. around my area it is pretty bad, but london is much worse. i swear the number of scum is multiplying too. as i said in a post a few days back, retards raising retards. something needs to be done. and while the army are at it, they might as well take the peadophiles out. thats my view. its been 2 years since i lived that very different life, and im sure its only gotten worse. whats the solution? only one that seems suitable is martial law.... discipline & control.

There was this guy Adolf who also didn’t like certain people, he had a frightenly effective way of getting rid of the people that he considered as a scum. I mean that’s basicly like miniature Mein Kampf you wrote there.

Brockxz
9th Aug 2011, 12:13
I'm sorry but those are not poor people in photos I see. If those are poor then I don't know how can i call 70% people here in Latvia. Those morons receive more money in benefits than 70% people here working hard 40 hours in the week. You don't know what poor actually means.
Also rioting has never gave any positive outcome for those who riot. You must learn how to protest against something. Violence has never turned into something good.

iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 12:17
There was this guy Adolf who also didn’t like certain people, he had a frightenly effective way of getting rid of the people that he considered as a scum. I mean that’s basicly like miniature Mein Kampf you wrote there.

you crazy? the only people i said should be eliminated was peadophiles. the rest should be disciplined & controlled.
dont you EVER compare me to that ****

Zoet
9th Aug 2011, 12:25
....If you don’t like riots then don’t give people a reason to go rioting.....

I would disagree with that as being true for all cases. In Australia the last big riot we had was the Cronulla riots, quite a few years ago now, and no-where near as serious as these ones in London from the sound of it, but they were basically rioting because they didn't like Muslims. Yeah.....

JCpies
9th Aug 2011, 12:25
JCpie, Ashpolt. I belive they really are rioting against the government (even though they are mostly doing harm for the community), but once the pack mentality takes over things get out of hands, still the point is not what happens now but instead; what has happened that we have gotten this far that people are rioting in the streets. Its not just about that someone got killed, these things need more to get started, this must have been cooking for a while. Perhaps that guys death was like the last push for them to go rioting. Rioting is the way for the people to tell that “Everything is not okay! We need change!”. Im not saying rioting is the good way to do it but I am saying that I understand that the anger of the people has to come out somehow. Basicly this rage is pointed at the government but also for the community (wich’s athmosphere is mostly created by the government) even though the ordinary citizens are the ones that take the most of the damage. Rioting is not fair but neither is revolution, still humanity needs them both to communicate with the goverment and demand or change things, after all we are nothing but gregarious animals. If you don’t like riots then don’t give people a reason to go rioting.

I agree with II J0SePh X II, rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. And that is not healthy development at all.

Most of the people rioting are teenagers and young adults, they're not out there to send a message. This isn't a riot against MJ12 or a NWO, this is burning homes, properties and stealing items. If they're upset with the country's economy, don't worsen it by trashing everything the society has. Some are out there for fun, some are out the for loot, some are out there to be a "big man" and most are out there for all those reasons.

They're mugging eachother, running out of stores with TVs and whatever else they could grab, taunting the police, showing off to their mates... Hardly some sort of righteous political message.

iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 12:30
Most of the people rioting are teenagers and young adults, they're not out there to send a message. This isn't a riot against MJ12 or a NWO, this is burning homes, properties and stealing items. If they're upset with the country's economy, don't worsen it by trashing everything the society has. Some are out there for fun, some are out the for loot, some are out there to be a "big man" and most are out there for all those reasons.

They're mugging eachother, running out of stores with TVs and whatever else they could grab, taunting the police, showing off to their mates... Hardly some sort of righteous political message.

Well said

Kvltism
9th Aug 2011, 12:31
Maybe they should listen to this woman and wise up: http://www.twitvid.com/4JTZH

iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 12:34
Maybe they should listen to this woman and wise up: http://www.twitvid.com/4JTZH

ha ha that woman was incredible! :)

JCpies
9th Aug 2011, 12:47
"Waterstones is untouched."

When the apocolypse comes, Waterstones is the second place I'm going to raid.

iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 12:53
"Waterstones is untouched."

When the apocalypse comes, Waterstones is the second place I'm going to raid.

Got ya :rasp:

why would you raid waterstones? i thought you wasn't big into books?


dnb is all i appreciate of england right now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_TOpHLdFZk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjpQQOWLjHU&ob=av2n
(yeah this track is american, but dnb still originated in england)

JCpies
9th Aug 2011, 12:59
Got ya :rasp:

why would you raid waterstones? i thought you wasn't big into books?

http://www.thecitrusreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/citizen_kane_clapping_gif_RE_If_The_Internet_Suddenly_Disappeared_How_Wed_Get_Laid-s480x360-132744.gif

Bravo, now you go and sort out your 3472 mistakes and I'll feel ashamed of myself. ;)

Kvltism
9th Aug 2011, 13:03
I'm sorry but those are not poor people in photos I see. If those are poor then I don't know how can i call 70% people here in Latvia. Those morons receive more money in benefits than 70% people here working hard 40 hours in the week. You don't know what poor actually means.

Fair play to you, it puts things into perspective. I've seen how British louts can descend on Latvia, Estonia, etc for a weekend bender, shelling out something like a month's wages for the average local to get completely leathered. The same applies to Australians acting the fool in Bali, Malaysia, etc.

Brockxz
9th Aug 2011, 13:04
Maybe they should listen to this woman and wise up: http://www.twitvid.com/4JTZH

At least one person with brains has been found in UK :)

iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 13:09
[
Bravo, now you go and sort out your 3472 mistakes and I'll feel ashamed of myself. ;)

aint gonna happen. no need to feel ashamed anyway. its only spelling.

some tupac for ya- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiDRWy9mdBs


At least one person with brains has been found in UK :)

GTFO ****

TrickyVein
9th Aug 2011, 13:11
The United States has had its fair share of race-riots (towards the end of the 70's).

This is not fueled by that (not saying those in the US were necessarily), if any riot is fueled by anything other than...stupidity.

To loosely quote Adama: "The military's job is to kill the enemy. The police are supposed to protect the people. When the military becomes the police, the enemy becomes the people."

sonicsidewinder
9th Aug 2011, 13:16
Scary business when you think about it.

Social collapse an all that.

Vigilantes. That's what we need.

s.pasanen
9th Aug 2011, 13:22
Most of the people rioting are teenagers and young adults, they're not out there to send a message. This isn't a riot against MJ12 or a NWO, this is burning homes, properties and stealing items. If they're upset with the country's economy, don't worsen it by trashing everything the society has. Some are out there for fun, some are out the for loot, some are out there to be a "big man" and most are out there for all those reasons.

They're mugging eachother, running out of stores with TVs and whatever else they could grab, taunting the police, showing off to their mates... Hardly some sort of righteous political message.

Well to me it sounds like they have a problem. I mean here in Finland we don’t have teenagers making riots in capital city that would brake to the worldwide news (well maybe someday we will have but that’s when we know that something has gone very wrong ALLREADY BEFORE the rioting starts). As ive already said; rioting is one extreme way for people to express their anger, so there MUST be somekind of problem(s) somewhere in there. That’s all I said.


you crazy? the only people i said should be eliminated was peadophiles. the rest should be disciplined & controlled.
dont you EVER compare me to that ****

So you cannot in any way be compared to the writer of Mein Kampf because instead of jews you want to kill all the paedophiles? Well what makes an peadophile? For example if someone is sexually peadophile but he/she never does anything illegal then should he/she be still killed also just to be sure? I would really like you to answer this. Also disciplined & controlled? Who are the "rest" that should be disciplined & controlled?

JCpies
9th Aug 2011, 13:26
Well to me it sounds like they have a problem. I mean here in Finland we don’t have teenagers making riots in capital city that would brake to the worldwide news (well maybe someday we will have but that’s when we know that something has gone very wrong BEFORE the rioting starts). As ive already said; rioting is one extreme way for people to express their anger, so there MUST be somekind of problem(s) somewhere in there. That’s all I said.

There's an audio interview with some girls who looted a shop for alcohol, they barely even know which government is in power, let alone know how "their money is being robbed."

As the Chief of Police put it "We're not dealing with an angry mob, we're dealing with a greedy mob."

sXcI-NL3Tro&list=FLJywxG55-Z1I&index=3

TrickyVein
9th Aug 2011, 13:28
No, people don't have "anger" at something that needs to be expressed, and rioting is absolutely the worst way for that to happen.

s. pasanen, I think you have an agenda. Am I right?

iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 13:30
Well to me it sounds like they have a problem. I mean here in Finland we don’t have teenagers making riots in capital city that would brake to the worldwide news (well maybe someday we will have but that’s when we know that something has gone very wrong ALLREADY BEFORE the rioting starts). As ive already said; rioting is one extreme way for people to express their anger, so there MUST be somekind of problem(s) somewhere in there. That’s all I said.


it started off at as a small angry group protesting. everyone else joined in cos they can get away with it.


So you cannot in any way be compared to the writer of Mein Kampf because instead of jews you want to kill all the paedophiles? Well what makes an peadophile? For example if someone is sexually peadophile but he/she never does anything illegal then should he/she be still killed also just to be sure? I would really like you to answer this. Also disciplined & controlled? Who are the "rest" that should be disciplined & controlled?

sounds like you have a hidden agenda buddy. if someone is known as a peadophile then that means they have already been put on the sex offenders list. those who resist there urges wont be found. so no they wont be shot.

Ulysses
9th Aug 2011, 13:30
So the police aren't 'real men' ? Interesting view. Police can definitely handle this I think, it's not like there are giant hordes with guns roaming the streets.

iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 13:31
s. pasanen, I think you have an agenda. Am I right?

damn you beat me to it


So the police aren't 'real men' ? Interesting view.

it was exaggeration. everyone is different. sorry if ur offended

Ashpolt
9th Aug 2011, 13:32
Rioting is the way for the people to tell that “Everything is not okay! We need change!”.

No it's not - at least, not this kind of rioting. If they want to send a message to the government, then send it to the government, not the guy who owns the local corner shop, or the family whose house's front wall you're caving in to get bricks to throw. Breaking into a store and stealing a 42" plasma TV is not sending a political message, it's just a sign that you're an opportunistic thief.

Poverty may be the underlying issue that has led to this - or at least allowed those involved to rationalise it - but it's not a reason for it, much less an excuse. As Brock pointed out, these people have a much easier and more comfortable life than the majority in many other countries: they're going around in expensive trainers and designer hoodies. Many of them will earn more in benefits for doing nothing than others will for working 40 hours weeks. These are not people clinging to the edge of existence; simply by being citizens of the UK, they've got a wealth of opportunities open to them that people in many other countries don't have, but they ignore these opportunities because it's easier to leech off the state and then blame the government for their ills than it is to take responsibility for their own actions.

We're a nation that's notoriously soft on crime. If there's any governmental cause here, it's that.

SageSavage
9th Aug 2011, 13:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6KXgjLqSTg

TrickyVein
9th Aug 2011, 13:38
I think it's wrong to even talk about any of the possible "issues" that may or may not be the cause of the initial rioting. Whatever legitimate concerns rioters may have had are now void.

Rioting is actually the very best way to shoot yourself in the foot rather than get a message across to your government. You cannot excuse criminal acts.

JCpies
9th Aug 2011, 13:38
I think some police with guns standing their ground on the streets could do some good. No need to fire real bullets though.

TrickyVein
9th Aug 2011, 13:42
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhdf62uklg1qdsdmoo1_500.jpg

iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 13:43
Rioting is actually the very best way to shoot yourself in the foot rather than get a message across to your government. You cannot excuse criminal acts.

most of the people involved are just scum with no respect. nothing to do with the government.

68_pie
9th Aug 2011, 13:45
Sigh, hope I get a refund for the football and I'll be really pissed if BigScreen is cancelled at the weekend.

These people are just ******* mugs and opportunistic thieves. **** 'em.

We need some heavy rainfall to calm everyone down.

s.pasanen
9th Aug 2011, 13:54
There's an audio interview with some girls who looted a shop for alcohol, they barely even know which government is in power, let alone know how "their money is being robbed."

Im not sure are you even trying to understand what im trying to say here. If you have people running around (teenage girls who barely know what goverment in in power and all) rioting and looting stores then something in your society has gone seriously wrong at some point of the development. Its always easy just to blame the people.


As the Chief of Police put it "We're not dealing with an angry mob, we're dealing with a greedy mob."

Well thats not exactly an unbiased point of view now isnt it.


s. pasanen, I think you have an agenda. Am I right?

To everyone: Im just saying that if people (or scum as some people prefer to say) are rioting and looting shops then there is an good explanation of why this is happening, maybe social structure is to blame, perhaps its something else, but there is ALWAYS a reason.


if someone is known as a peadophile then that means they have already been put on the sex offenders list. those who resist there urges wont be found. so no they wont be shot.

"As a medical diagnosis, pedophilia (or paedophilia) is defined as a psychiatric disorder in adults or late adolescents (persons age 16 or older) typically characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children (generally age 13 years or younger, though onset of puberty may vary)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

Well it doesnt say that you need to actually commit a crime in order to be diagnoside as a pedophilian.

TrickyVein
9th Aug 2011, 14:05
Why must there be a reason? I'm serious, what makes you have that conviction? Please don't say "human nature" is a reason, because it's not. We're always dealing with being human, rioting or no. I don't think there's a rational for this violence. Even if there were, it would not excuse it. Do you believe that something is wrong with the system? Blaming the "man?"

People are stupid and act irrationally in large groups. Theirs is no hidden reflection on something fundamentally wrong with the status quo.*

*You are also not helping your case if you think that governments should be put at fault for not guaranteeing that every single one of their citizens with half a brain is informed of current and world events and is up to date on factual information 100% of the time when it is their (the citizens's) business and their business alone to be able to inform themselves of whatever free information they desire. Am I wrong in assessing that your argument with JCpie runs like that? These girls don't know what they're doing, and so the government is to blame for that?

cartridge
9th Aug 2011, 14:10
The Wind That Shakes the Barley

iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 14:10
bored teenagers with nothing to do. Bring in Chuck Norris.
Have fun guys , I remember my first beer...

But seriously , we need FACTS. was he armed? did he threaten police? if so he probably deserved a bullet.
think if this happened in the U.S, nobody would give a **** . As I understand it, over there its an everyday occurrence.

One more observation. White people get shot all the time by police, cant really remember there being any riots over it.........

OOOOOO too much truth for anyone? shall I make you a hot drink and get your saftey blanket out?? :eek:

five people are shot or stabbed everyday in london- http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23432687-five-children-shot-or-stabbed-in-london-every-day.do
EDIT: 5 children everyday. and this was in 2008

s.pasanen
9th Aug 2011, 14:46
Why must there be a reason?

Well ofcourse there must be a reason why there are people participating riots! Its not like it would random you know! For instance; why Donald Trump never participates in riots but some poor guy living in the ghetto usually goes out robbing shops when occasion arises? Well that was rethorical question, please keep on reading.

For example (this is just example): If there are poor people living in ghettos and then when the occasion arises they start looting places then maybe we can ask ourselves that why do we have poor people in the ghettos to begin with? If we would have less poor people in the ghettos then maybe we would have less people participating in riots perhaps?

Maybe some are just blaming those people and calling them scum but im more interested about why is all this happening. I belive im trying to look the “big picture” here, instead of just blaming these people im trying to think why there are so many people participating these riots, instead of just looking at the obvious consequences = riots and figuring out what we should do to these rioters.

I mean who knows, perhaps in the future your descendant will belong to the poor portion of the people and would be taking advantage of situation like this and would be looting shops. Then would you still blindly blame the people without ever even considering that just MAYBE there is something wrong within our society? Maybe the goverment should do something about it? Why are rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer?

Pretentious Old Man.
9th Aug 2011, 14:51
Mark Duggan (it is claimed) was one of the top four men in a drugs ring. When he was shot, all the London crime gangs declared revenge, and a whole bunch of hoodies decided to use the ensuing violence as a way to enrich themselves. Then the obligatory anarchists came in.

At least the arch-twit is now back from Tuscany.

EDIT: Can I just quickly add that the claims that the UK is some kind of immigrant ridden morass of tension are BS. These riots are not race relations related, they are about greed, stupidity, crime and revenge. Minorities could scarcely find a country more tolerant for the most part than the UK.

JCpies
9th Aug 2011, 14:53
But these people aren't extremely poor. It's not like they're stealing food for their survival, they're grabbing whatever they can from electronics and clothes stores. They're already in decent clothes when commiting the act.

It's easy to excuse these things and say "Well, it's the governements fault" but it's not the government who are burning down private and public property whilst stealing and assaulting people.

iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 15:01
Well ofcourse there must be a reason why there are people participating riots! Its not like it would random you know! For instance; why Donald Trump never participates in riots but some poor guy living in the ghetto usually goes out robbing shops when occasion arises? Well that was rethorical question, please keep on reading.

For example (this is just example): If there are poor people living in ghettos and then when the occasion arises they start looting places then maybe we can ask ourselves that why do we have poor people in the ghettos to begin with? If we would have less poor people in the ghettos then maybe we would have less people participating in riots perhaps?

Maybe some are just blaming those people and calling them scum but im more interested about why is all this happening. I belive im looking the “big picture” here, instead of just blaming these people im trying to think why there are so many people participating these riots, instead of just looking at the obvious consequences = riots and figuring out what we should do to these rioters.

I mean who knows, perhaps in the future your descendant will belong to the poor portion of the people and would be taking advantage of situation like this and would be looting shops. Then would you still blindly blame the people without ever even considering that just MAYBE there is something wrong within our society? Maybe the goverment should do something about it? Why are rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer?

The reason is they are scum with no respect! but as for poverty & unemployment, hows this- all retail, warehouse,
cleaning and other common low-paying jobs as of now, are shared. one person works mon-thurs, the other fri-sun. this does not include management positions or other roles with high responsability. wages are raised to meet full-time pay of common jobs using government benefits. hows that sound? am i a genius, or a fool?

jason95821
9th Aug 2011, 15:05
Granted, I am not native to the United Kingdom, but from my limited understanding on the subject it seems a teenager was shot and killed and the riots are a response to this.

so long story short another oakland indecent seems like cops just love shooting kids :lol:

Chewy2nd
9th Aug 2011, 15:10
Granted I am not native to the United Kingdom, but from my limited understanding on the subject, it seems a teenager was shot and killed and the riots are a response to this.

1. He was a grown man
2. Here in the UK guns are only used on occasions where the suspect is armed
3. The riots arent about that anyway

Riots about such things don't travel 200 miles to seperate cities

iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 15:21
more pac for y'all-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cjv7hEAytU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=padvnsLUhUM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WscUaQ5ZZEk

legend.

Ashpolt
9th Aug 2011, 15:27
so long story short another oakland indecent seems like cops just love shooting kids :lol:

Long story short: you should read the long story. The guy wasn't a teenager, much less a kid.


Well ofcourse there must be a reason why there are people participating riots! Its not like it would random you know! For instance; why Donald Trump never participates in riots but some poor guy living in
the ghetto usually goes out robbing shops when occasion arises?

(I know this was a rhetorical question, but it touches on your basic misunderstanding of the situation.)

Because he already has the money to buy everything he wants and they don't, obviously - but you can't justify looting on a "has / has not" basis when they're stealing luxury items like TVs. You could potentially justify stealing the bare essentials to survive, but that's not what's happening here. Having a big TV is not a basic human right, and not having one is not a justification for looting. It's even less a justification for burning buildings to the ground.


For example (this is just example): If there are poor people living in ghettos and then when the occasion arises they start looting places then maybe we can ask ourselves that why do we have poor people in the ghettos to begin with? If we would have less poor people in the ghettos then maybe we would have less people participating in riots perhaps?

We have poor people in ghettos because it is completely impossible to eradicate poverty completely. These people we're talking about here are ill-educated - not because they don't have the opportunity to learn, as education is free and generally of a high standard in this country, but because they're not interested in learning - and as such they simply aren't going to get high paying jobs. And why should they, when they don't have the skills to contribute much to society because they weren't interested in learning those skills in the first place?

But still the government provides cheap housing for them, and unemployment benefit if they can't find work at all. They have, compared to many countries, a very comfortable standard of living without having to do anything for it - thanks to the government. If they've turned those cheap housing areas into hellholes through graffiti, litter, crime and drugs then that's their fault, not the government's. Again, these are not people struggling just to eat. They're people who've got the basic necessities - and more, with their designer trainers and so on - but have squandered it, and then looked at the middle class and said "I deserve to have what he has, even though I'm not willing to work for it."


Maybe some are just blaming those people and calling them scum but im more interested about why is all this happening. I belive im trying to look the “big picture” here, instead of just blaming these people im trying to think why there are so many people participating these riots, instead of just looking at the obvious consequences = riots and figuring out what we should do to these rioters.

What can we do to help those living in poverty? We can provide cheap housing and unemployment benefit, as well as free education to help people to get better jobs if they want to. Oh, wait, the government already does that, as mentioned above. Why should they get any more than that, without working for it?

It is not the government's job to give everyone everything for free. It's the government's job to give people the basics for free, and then give them the opportunities to get more if they work for it. The government is doing their job: these people have those opportunities, but they're choosing to squander them, and then complaining that they don't get everything for nothing.

MaceUk
9th Aug 2011, 15:35
I think it is fuelled by greed of gangs exploiting the situation as if they were really angry at the police they would have targeted police stations rather than shops that are then looted.

I hear that tonight there will be 16,000 police officers on the streets of London and that they may very well use plastic bullets. I fear that may escalate this as we already know that these gangs have firearms and that could just be the excuse they are looking for, then the Army will no doubt be brought in.

Romeo
9th Aug 2011, 15:37
I gotta say, WTF people! WTF! Causing all this mayhem because of one person being killed, which may or may not be true, (the reason not the person dying), is just insane.

I was looking at some of the pictures online, burnt out cars, people looting a Carhart store, one person blatantly torching a car, most of these places look like a war zone. There's an 89 year old man's store that was sacked. All he did was give hair cuts, why would you hurt someone like that?! What could you even possibly steal of value from there?

This angers and saddens me. That people can go to such terrible depths, just for a little anarchy. I'm really, really, considering joining iloveyouXWORLD's vigilante crusade. When you mess with people that can't fight back, then you cross a line.
Reminds me of the Vancouver riots that just happened. People would steal something from a store, walk outside, and then destroy it. Now, what was the purpose of that?

My only glimmer of hope was that in the Vancouver riots, revenge against the rioters was swift. A lot of rioters lost their jobs and scholarships, there was over a hundred arrests and in the aftermath, the town actually came together to rebuild.

Chewy2nd
9th Aug 2011, 15:40
Ashpolt, best post I've seen in this thread.

It's true about 16,000 police officers, they've been drafted in from Manchester, Lancashire, Yorkshire, Wales and many other places, though if it continues tonight, it's time to bring the army in.

From the BBC

"Breaking News

In the last hour several shop windows have been smashed in West Bromwich. Up to 200 youths in hoodies have been seen on the streets and police have now pushed the crowd to one side."

JCpies
9th Aug 2011, 16:00
Those sheep will never learn.

Neuromancer07
9th Aug 2011, 16:57
Why contain it? 'Scool.

Seriously though, on a forum of Deus Ex fans, the majority want martial law? There's no justification for the opportunistic looting which is of course detached from real grievances but to quickly seek the elimination of liberties in the name of temporary security? Only if threre was a paramilitary insurrection could one make a case for some limited form of martial law but some teenagers using previously legitimate unrest as an excuse to steal televisions and then; 'SEND IN THE MARINES!'

England is hardly a country with vibrant institutions where citizens can seek redress for greviances. I still remember in horror reading of the Brazillian gentlemen who was shot five times in the head for being mistaken for a terrorist suspect after the '7/7 bombings' when there was no plausible evidence he was doing anything remotely suspicious with even specious justifications repeatedly disproven: 'He jumped over the ticket turnstyles', 'He was running', 'He emerged from the house of a suspected terrorist'. None of these things together, let alone individually could justify such a brutal killing, even if he was a terrorist he could've been easily apprehended peacefully. Then the official, government-sanctioned inquest could not even bring his murderer to the light of day nor was even allowed to rule a verdict of cupability. The two options were no culpability or for an inconclusive verdict. Obviously it could only and shamefully be ruled as inconclusive.

And then what of the racial disparities in questioning, searches and detainment? The long periods of detention without evidence that contravene even fundamental aspects of the Magna Carta? The mass surveillance? The ghettoisation of public housing? The corruption of Scotland Yard, now plain as day? Issues of foreign policy left entirely out of democratic oversight? On the second last point I cannot overstate that this is just a fraction of the institutional and personal corruption of law enforcement. A vast majority believe corruption in public institutions, especially law enforcement and intelligence services to be something that afflicts only other countries, usually predominantly brown, foriegn or small. But as the Sibel Edmonds testimony will demonstrate, positions of power inherently have an inducement towards corruption and abuse.

As I stated previously, opportunistic looting is just that and serves no purpose other than destructive self-enrichment. But before the initial demonstration was co-opted by individuals too cowardly to act alone or without the cover of chaos, there are societally fundmanetal issues that need to be addressed and the requisite civil disobedience needed to effect change will be eliminated under the precedent of what many here are calling for myopically. Understandably but in my view deleteriously.

s.pasanen
9th Aug 2011, 17:09
It really annoys me to engage in this kind of conversation in english because im not a native english speaker so it takes some time from me to actually write these replies. I just try and keep it short.


Ok, now it seems that people are really nitpicking what I say. If I give an example of poor ghetto guy then the answer is that “The rioters are not poor! Having big TV is not a basic human right!”. It wasn’t supposed to describe this situation in hand, it was an EXAMPLE! I said that it is an example right before I talked about that poor guy in the ghetto! I mean cmon, give me a brake! Some of you try to make it sound like they are just greedy monsters wich are also intellectually inferior to us (because lack of education) and they sometimes for no reason lurk out of their dungeons to bring havoc and cause harm among us superior beings. I mean these are human beings you are talking about!


Basicly you are saying (some of you say it directly) that these are somehow inferior people, that they are scum. Well I personally don’t belive that people are “scum” anymore than the rest of us, and even though they might of turn down education that is offered to them, I still don’t call that person as a “scum”. Its easy to just say that “Those people don’t educate themselves so they don’t get good jobs so they don’t make any money, so they are scum”. But why is this happening? Why there are this many left outside from our society? Why there are this many people joining riots? Im not blaming the government solely (although the government might do more to try and bring them back to society), but im also giving some blame for the society that we are living in (like people calling and treating other people as scum). I really doubt that they are somehow inferior people, there must be some other reason for this. What is it? I don’t know, all I know is that this problem (whatever it is) is deeply integrated into your system and yet nobody cares about it, nobody cares about those who are left outside of society, until they come out rioting that is.


"Riots often occur in reaction to a perceived grievance or out of dissent. Historically, riots have occurred due to poor working or living conditions, government, oppression, taxation or conscription, conflicts between Ethnic groups, food supply or religions (see race riot, sectarian violence and pogrom), the outcome of a sporting event (see football hooliganism) or frustration with legal channels through which to air grievances." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot

Dead-Eye
9th Aug 2011, 17:19
If they were really fighting the New World Order, they would rob the police departments, mason lodges, the tabloids and you know the people that deserve it. Instead they are just robbing small business, rich folk, poor folk, and each other.

This is obviously a false flag attack to bring in a police state. Oh, and BTW I guess we can say I was totally right when I said the world would look a lot more like Deus Ex when Deus Ex 3 is released. You people should realize that the Illuminati (or something that fits that discretion) exist. These Lucifer loving devil dogs manufactured everything probably even 9-11.

At any rate I'm going go to my well prepared fallout shelter bunker now. With my lifetimes supply of food and free energy. Because I was prepared. :wave:

Romeo
9th Aug 2011, 17:29
If they were really fighting the New World Order, they would rob the police departments, mason lodges, the tabloids and you know the people that deserve it. Instead they are just robbing small business, rich folk, poor folk, and each other.

This is obviously a false flag attack to bring in a police state. Oh, and BTW I guess we can say I was totally right when I said the world would look a lot more like Deus Ex when Deus Ex 3 is released. You people should realize that the Illuminati (or something that fits that discretion) exist. These Lucifer loving devil dogs manufactured everything probably even 9-11.

At any rate I'm going go to my well prepared fallout shelter bunker now. With my lifetimes supply of food and free energy. Because I was prepared. :wave:
Free energy? You should patent that. You'd make a tidy little profit, I suspect.

Dead-Eye
9th Aug 2011, 17:36
^^ Did you know energy companies spend 0.03% of their budget on R&D?

At any rate seeing as it should now be cool to be a conspiracy theorist, why don't we all have a refresher?
x-CrNlilZho

Romeo
9th Aug 2011, 17:51
^^ Did you know energy companies spend 0.03% of their budget on R&D?

At any rate seeing as it should now be cool to be a conspiracy theorist, why don't we all have a refresher?
x-CrNlilZho
I'm sorry, but unless it has a motor, beating heart or interactivity, I am really hesitent to allocate more than two hours of my life to something all in one sitting. I might watch later. Or I might not. I find most conspiracy theories argue their own points, or rely heavily on faith. I have yet to see one where I thought it was well-presented and easier to swallow than the conventional story. Sorry, just my opinion though.

As for the energy companies spending only 0.03% on R&D, I can believe that. Hell, when most energy companies get involved with alternative energy studies, it's well-documented that they even go so far as to interfere and skew results.

Citizen_Snips
9th Aug 2011, 18:02
All I can say is if Frontline: Law & Disorder turns out to be like the 9/11 conspiracy videos, I'm going to be utterly pissed at you for wasting my time. ;)



No, no. These are actual events with concrete evidence and the officers received punishment for the horrible acts they committed. In fact, it's the best video documentary I've seen this year. I wish every to see it because it's so eye opening, emotional, and reveals what was going on in N.O. It's a PBS flick ;)

SladeTeck
9th Aug 2011, 18:31
Personally, I'm kind of surprised that the British police actually shot someone. Every time I see them it seems they aren't heavily armed, maybe a stun gun or a baton. I've hardly ever seen them with a pistol, even the riot cops seem mostly non lethal from what I've seen in the photos.

That aside, no one can seriously tell me this looting and chaos is for a good reason. Take a look at these photos, especially #5. That guy sure looks like he's protesting for something. What is it? I think it's the fact he didn't get those 100.00 pants he wanted when everyone looted the store before him.

Link: CHAOS (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/08/09/uk.riots.hackney/index.html)

You have everyday citizens scared to even leave their homes because some ninnies believe in taking every thing they can then turning around and blaming it on society and the government. While innocent people are terrorized, I'm not sure if there have been any reports on house break-ins yet, but I expect it to come soon. The open gang violence has obviously increased. Goons lie in wait among other citizens causing more havok when the police arrive so they can have more chaos in which to loot.

I just hope no innocents get killed or hurt during all of this rioting, with the police all caught up handling the fires and various riots I'm afraid it's a matter of time however. Once this occurs, the UK will explode, into a fireball of chaos.

MaceUk
9th Aug 2011, 18:38
Personally, I'm kind of surprised that the British police actually shot someone. Every time I see them it seems they aren't heavily armed, maybe a stun gun or a baton. I've hardly ever seen them with a pistol, even the riot cops seem mostly non lethal from what I've seen in the photos..

Only Armed Response Teams are armed with MP5's/G36's and Glocks and do not mess about, just like all law enforcement.

Everyday beat bobbies and riot police are not armed but a lot more stun guns are being used in day to day situations.

SladeTeck
9th Aug 2011, 18:43
Only Armed Response Teams are armed with MP5's/G36's and Glocks and do not mess about, just like all law enforcement.

Everyday beat bobbies and riot police are not armed but a lot more stun guns are being used in day to day situations.

Yeah, I note you UK guys seem to be able to handle many situations without violence thus entailing your beat cops to carry non lethal items.

However, here in the US the situation isn't as nice. Our beat cops have to have guns, sadly. You never know when the random ganger will come around and shoot a cop, just because. Here in the South, it's gang violence in the cities, and random rednecks with too much to drink and nothing to do.

Before the riots occurred it looked like the UK was a stunning example of people generally getting along. Not a Utopia, but it seemed nice.

Moorpheusl9
9th Aug 2011, 18:59
Mark Duggan (the guy who was shot and killed) was 29 - the bullet lodged in the police officer's radio was found to be a ricochet'd bullet fired by a policeman.

A gun was found at the scene, which is believed to be his however, none of the bullets are said to be from Mark's gun.

A peaceful protest was staged in Tottenham, London which (for some reason) descended into violence.

Copycatters then started the same elsewhere for no apparent reason (not linked to Mark Duggan at all).

It's ridiculous and it's horrifying.

Here's some videos that people should watch to try and understand how bad it all is:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456065

Me = disgusted.

Where's Batman when you need him?

TrickyVein
9th Aug 2011, 19:04
Perhaps, living in America (Baltimore, no less) I don't have the perspective that our British members do. As SladeTeck has hit upon, all cops here carry armed weapons. The murder rate in Baltimore is something like 200-300 homicides/year (no, I'm not citing anything but that's probably very true based on what I remember hearing). Perhaps I can understand the initial "outrage" over the police using lethal force in this situation if it's not so normal. :scratch:

Anyways, most of us have already belabored the point that anything past that initial incident is completely our of line bat-**** insane stupid and inexcusable no matter where your heart is or how starry-eyed you are about championing social equality and/or socioeconomic equality.

Also was very surprised to see that the majority are pushing for marshal law. That's a big no no. Maybe if the riots were more organized and purposeful, then maybe you could have arguments for imposing marshal law. As is, the problem doesn't necessarily require the force of the military; just more force. The state (government) is not at risk and isn't being targeted - people aren't attacking their own institutions, just exploiting them and taking advantage of a lack of law enforcement. People don't want to bring down the government. If they were, then I could see calling for marshal law to protect the state and keep order.

Ilves
9th Aug 2011, 19:09
Poll results so far dissapoint me tremendously. On a forum frequented by Deus Ex fans, no less. The London situation should have your conspiracy-senses tingling!


Why contain it? Let it spill over the schools and churches, let the bodies pile up in the streets. In the end they'll beg us to save them.

HERESY
9th Aug 2011, 19:19
If you're going to riot you should target the right people. Destroying your own neighborhoods and communities will limit your resources if **** really hits the fan and it's a war between "the people" and "the government." However, speaking in regards to recent riots in the U.S., many of the rioters aren’t even from the areas where the riots occur. A recent riot here in the Bay Area resulted in the arrest of over 70 people but less than 20 were actually from the neighborhood where the riots occurred, so that’s something to think about. In many cases, just as the one in London, the protest starts out as peaceful but some idiot(s) with an agenda (some of them actually paid informants or undercover) incite others to chaos and then the cycle of lack of accountability and institutional deviance repeats itself.

People need to understand that at some point in time, singing “We Shall Overcome”, holding hands and peacefully protesting will yield ZERO results and that you have to get your hands dirty. If you were to look at different groups who rioted or locations in history where uprisings occurred, you will see that in many instances it was due to conflict over resources between status quo and those who were oppressed with limited social mobility. When you have your boot on someone’s neck, or you take away their culture or deprive them of things while flaunting it in their face, you’re going to make matters worse.

Concerning law enforcement, you have good and bad but some of you appear to have wool over your eyes and aren’t cognizant of some of the darker aspects of law enforcement, the disparities in the criminal justice system, the “blue wall” and other shenanigans perpetrated by people who are PAID to protect and serve the community. In addition, I would say many of you are not aware of the plight of others and have gone through life thinking or being taught that when people speak out, they are crying, whining, have no legitimate gripe, etc. However, when the **** lands on YOUR porch and you see it enough in your community, your eyes will be opened and you’ll realize that those people who you labeled as “whiners” actually had a legit complaint.

Now take a look at this. This homeless man was beaten and killed by police officers. He was crying out for his father while he was being beaten. Guess what? His father was a former deputy sheriff. You want to see a before and after pic? Google “kelly thomas beating” without the quotes and click on images.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOucksGS10o

Take a look at this video. This man tried to tell police that he was armed and had the legal rights to carry his weapon. The officer went ape ****, verbally humiliated the man and said he should have “executed” him. (the officer also has a history of doing this as another video recently surfaced.)

http://vimeo.com/26707819

Finally, take a look at this vid. Watch how this officer attacks a child with special needs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqNcU17ySXs&feature=related

JCpies
9th Aug 2011, 19:20
Great idea, let's just let the riots continue, obviously stopping the riot is more of a danger than letting them run around the country destroying everything and causing anarchy.

TrickyVein
9th Aug 2011, 19:31
In addition, I would say many of you are not aware of the plight of others and have gone through life thinking or being taught that when people speak out, they are crying, whining, have no legitimate gripe, etc. However, when the **** lands on YOUR porch and you see it enough in your community, your eyes will be opened and you’ll realize that those people who you labeled as “whiners” actually had a legit complaint.

Are you for real? This is the INTERNET. :wave:

You know absolutely nothing about anybody here.

I also do not understand what posting videos of unrelated police-brutality have to do with current events, or what you are trying to achieve by posting said videos. Do you actually think that you're enlightening people? :o

Sure, maybe your heart is in the right place and wouldn't we all like change and a better future for ourselves and the young'ns. But not like this. This isn't even directed at achieving anything like that. It's mindless, unfocused, chaotic. Can't you see that? Nor is it an "opportunity" for people who want change to start rising up and initiating their own acts of violence.

Also, if you voted to impose marshal law and aren't familiar with this image, you should really re-examine your thought process:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/65/Kent_State_massacre.jpg

HERESY
9th Aug 2011, 19:43
Are you for real? This is the INTERNET. :wave:

What does being on the net have to do with anything when I'm critically reading the posts?


You know absolutely nothing about anybody here.

I'm forming my assessment based on what others have posted. (See above.)


I also do not understand what posting videos of unrelated police-brutality have to do with current events, or what you are trying to achieve by posting said videos. Do you actually think that you're enlightening people? :o

The topic has morphed into a thread that deals with police brutality, rioting, etc and is no longer exclusive to the incident in London. Moreover, the videos posted ARE current events here in America and I'm posting them so awareness can be raised, and so people will not continue to hold the belief that police officers are always in the right or that they don't commit acts of crime.


Sure, maybe your heart is in the right place and wouldn't we all like change and a better future for ourselves and the young'ns. But not like this.

Who said they should achieve it in the way they are going about it? Are you implying that I'm suggesting such a thing? If so I'm not and proof of that can be found in the first two sentences of my post.


This isn't even directed at achieving anything like that. It's mindless, unfocused, chaotic. Can't you see that?

Why would you make that statement and ask the question when I said:


If you're going to riot you should target the right people. Destroying your own neighborhoods and communities will limit your resources if ***** really hits the fan and it's a war between "the people" and "the government."

and


In many cases, just as the one in London, the protest starts out as peaceful but some idiot(s) with an agenda (some of them actually paid informants or undercover) incite others to chaos and then the cycle of lack of accountability and institutional deviance repeats itself.

Those two statements, taken in totality, should allow a reasonable person to come to the conclusion that I'm not endorsing these riots. What I am stating is that at some point in time and contrary to some of the opinions on this board, violence will happen and is an absolute requirement.


Also, if you voted to impose marshal law and aren't familiar with this image, you should really re-examine your thought process:

I didn't vote in the poll but I know full well where that pic is from.

Pretentious Old Man.
9th Aug 2011, 19:51
Perhaps, living in America (Baltimore, no less) I don't have the perspective that our British members do. As SladeTeck has hit upon, all cops here carry armed weapons. The murder rate in Baltimore is something like 200-300 homicides/year (no, I'm not citing anything but that's probably very true based on what I remember hearing). Perhaps I can understand the initial "outrage" over the police using lethal force in this situation if it's not so normal. :scratch:

Anyways, most of us have already belabored the point that anything past that initial incident is completely our of line bat-**** insane stupid and inexcusable no matter where your heart is or how starry-eyed you are about championing social equality and/or socioeconomic equality.

Also was very surprised to see that the majority are pushing for marshal law. That's a big no no. Maybe if the riots were more organized and purposeful, then maybe you could have arguments for imposing marshal law. As is, the problem doesn't necessarily require the force of the military; just more force. The state (government) is not at risk and isn't being targeted - people aren't attacking their own institutions, just exploiting them and taking advantage of a lack of law enforcement. People don't want to bring down the government. If they were, then I could see calling for marshal law to protect the state and keep order.

Yeah, the perspective is very different. We have a culture of disapproval, and seemingly universal distrust. We distrust politicians, policemen, protesters, rioters, people with more money than us, people with less money than us, people with as much money as us (the swine!), and so forth. (This is a gross generalisation, but you get what I mean). If a policeman shoots someone (even a serial murderer like Raoul Moat), the public disapproves. If they do nothing, they disapprove. If there is a riot, the public disapproves. If a politician gives out benefits to the people, he's buying people's votes and we disapprove. If he cuts benefits, he's a callous bastard and we disapprove. We disapprove of most things as a society, we don't really have some kind of plurality consensus, or the deeply polarised society that you seem to have in America. (As an aside from a non-American perspective, in your country so many things seem to dissolve into two sides. Abortion, guns, deficits, military power... with both sides having powerful lobbies. Over here, we're so cynical that society very rarely seems to form these camps. We just hate everything, and 90% of the time we're proven right to just hate everything, because most things are hateful one way or another.

This is just my personal view of the situation.

s.pasanen
9th Aug 2011, 19:59
Calm down people, I belive that nobody isnt trying to justify rioting (well at least im not trying to) but it is completely different story if I say that there MUST be a some reason that why all this is happening. Here in Finland police has shot people (for a reason obviously) but there hasn’t been any violent or othervice massive riots because of that, heck we don’t have riots for any reason what so ever. I must admit that if we would have large portion of people unemployed and just completely shut out of society then I belive that we would also start to have riots from whatever reason. Well we don’t have that, not just yet at least. Also, for example from large unemployment I blame government not its people.


You have people rioting in streets, that clearly indicates a somekind of problem within your society, just saying that they riot because they are “stupid scum” isn’t very constructive. They obviously cannot help themselves, so you must, as a society, take the responsibility to bring them back into the society, or otherwise if you ignore it, the problems just builds up, it doesn’t disappear by itself. Remember that those kids who are rioting there as we speak, will someday be adults with their adult responsibilities. On the other hand, if you belive that you have big riots because you simply have “sick twisted people” in your country then what breeds those “sick individuals” if not your very own society? I just only hope that after these riots have ended people start to really think about why did they come to this.


It is certainly good that you have faith in your society, but that must go only to a certain point, its not perfect you see, it will never be perfect, theres always room for improvement. IMO its kind of stupid to say that our society is somehow perfect and people who doesn’t make their way in it are "stupid scum" people who deserve to vanish from the earth.


Overall I must say that im very surprised about peoples opinions and comments on this issue, people seem to judge events very simplifiedly without even trying to go into to the very root of the problem. This can also be seen in the way this poll was made, there are two options to vote for: Should we use less force or more force. I didn’t even vote since those riots are not the root of the problem, that’s just the symptom of some other problem. Its like a doctor that is only trying to treat the symptom of a disease and refusing to examine what is really actually causing these symptoms. Nobody doesn’t seem to care, everyones just busy trying to make more money and buying a bigger more expensive car than the neighbor has.

TrickyVein
9th Aug 2011, 20:02
The topic has morphed into a thread that deals with police brutality, rioting, etc and is no longer exclusive to the incident in London. Moreover, the videos posted ARE current events here in America and I'm posting them so awareness can be raised, and so people will not continue to hold the belief that police officers are always in the right or that they don't commit acts of crime.

I don't recall seeing your name as the OP, and I never voiced the opinion that cops aren't capable of doing wrong. Who has? We are talking about whether it's a good idea or not to impose marshal law. You are proving nothing to anybody here by posting videos of unrelated police brutality. Thus, my original response.



Who said they should achieve it in the way they are going about it? Are you implying that I'm suggesting such a thing? If so I'm not and proof of that can be found in the first two sentences of my post.

You also said:



People need to understand that at some point in time, singing “We Shall Overcome”, holding hands and peacefully protesting will yield ZERO results and that you have to get your hands dirty.

Perhaps you can understand where my confusion is coming from. I think you make good of clarifying yourself a little here:


What I am stating is that at some point in time and contrary to some of the opinions on this board, violence will happen and is an absolute requirement.

So, to be clear, you condone the riots, but support violent protest? When would it ever be the case where you could be sure that you had organized violent protest involving a particular group of like-minded individuals all fighting for justice and to better themselves? You believe in that? That it would ever happen? This example of rioting in London isn't kosher, but some other violent protest would be? Who would make that determination when there isn't anybody who is clearly in charge? When there are copycats? When they are associated with many more individuals who are just looking for the opportunity to loot things for themselves? You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Do you support the 2nd amendment? Is this part of your thinking about "necessary" violent, and inevitable uprising?

SladeTeck
9th Aug 2011, 20:06
Yeah, the perspective is very different. We have a culture of disapproval, and seemingly universal distrust. We distrust politicians, policemen, protesters, rioters, people with more money than us, people with less money than us, people with as much money as us (the swine!), and so forth. (This is a gross generalisation, but you get what I mean). If a policeman shoots someone (even a serial murderer like Raoul Moat), the public disapproves. If they do nothing, they disapprove. If there is a riot, the public disapproves. If a politician gives out benefits to the people, he's buying people's votes and we disapprove. If he cuts benefits, he's a callous bastard and we disapprove. We disapprove of most things as a society, we don't really have some kind of plurality consensus, or the deeply polarised society that you seem to have in America. (As an aside from a non-American perspective, in your country so many things seem to dissolve into two sides. Abortion, guns, deficits, military power... with both sides having powerful lobbies. Over here, we're so cynical that society very rarely seems to form these camps. We just hate everything, and 90% of the time we're proven right to just hate everything, because most things are hateful one way or another.

This is just my personal view of the situation.

I have to agree with you on this. Being distrustful brings forth more distrust. That said, it's something I hope one day we will actually stop doing.

-REDACTED-

Spyhopping
9th Aug 2011, 20:08
It's a mess, it's senseless and embarrassing. The worst part is that lack of any real convictions that will come from it in the end. People will be cautioned, fined, and bailed. Not that it would immediately fix anything, anyway.

Ashpolt
9th Aug 2011, 20:08
Of course there's a reason this is happening, there's a reason for everything: nothing happens without reason. But it's not that the government are failing to provide for these people. As a wonderful quote that's currently going around Twitter says, "I'm getting a little sick of hearing that children provided with 11 years of free education are deprived of prospects or opportunity" - and I'd like to add free healthcare and a whole host of benefit payments to that. As I said before, if this is the government's fault at all, it's because they've historically been too easy on crime, and given too much for free to those who do nothing for it.

Watch this video:

ZUzuYoCkYAY

Do these girls sound like they're rioting for some cause? They say "it's the government's fault" and "it's the rich's fault" but don't (or can't) explain why. "We're just showing the rich people that we can do what we want." They're a bunch of entitled little brats who've been given things for free their entire life and are now taking it to the next level. The sooner they're shown some discipline, the better.

Nolerhn
9th Aug 2011, 20:10
I just watched some videos showing some of the rioting in London, it made me sick. I saw people stealing T.V.'s, lighting cars on fire, homes and places of busniess burning-- I don't get it.

I personally believe in peaceful solutions to problems, but I also know that isn't always possible in all scenarios. What I don't get about the riots in London though, is what message are the rioters trying to send? What good can possibly come from destroying the property of others in your neighborhood, your friends, and family? It's despicable to say the least.

I understood (or rather, understand) the protests and riots in the Middle East, but in London? I do not.

SladeTeck
9th Aug 2011, 20:11
Of course there's a reason this is happening, there's a reason for everything: nothing happens without reason. But it's not that the government are failing to provide for these people. As a wonderful quote that's currently going around Twitter says, "I'm getting a little sick of hearing that children provided with 11 years of free education are deprived of prospects or opportunity" - and I'd like to add free healthcare and a whole host of benefit payments to that. As I said before, if this is the government's fault at all, it's because they've historically been too easy on crime, and given too much for free to those who do nothing for it.

Watch this video:

ZUzuYoCkYAY

Do these girls sound like they're rioting for some cause? They say "it's the government's fault" and "it's the rich's fault" but don't (or can't) explain why. "We're just showing the rich people that we can do what we want." They're a bunch of entitled little brats who've been given things for free their entire life and are now taking it to the next level. The sooner they're shown some discipline, the better.

^^THIS. THIS. +4 free internets for life. :thumb:

Also, those girls need some sort of wake up call. Just listening to them makes me want to punch something.

JCpies
9th Aug 2011, 20:12
I just watched some videos showing some of the rioting in London, it made me sick. I saw people stealing T.V.'s, lighting cars on fire, homes and places of busniess burning-- I don't get it.

I personally believe in peaceful solutions to problems, but I also know that isn't always possible in all scenarios. What I don't get about the riots in London though, is what message are the rioters trying to send? What good can possibly come from destroying the property of others in your neighborhood, your friends, and family? It's despicable to say the least.

I understood (or rather, understand) the protests and riots in the Middle East, but in London? I do not.

It's easier to understand when you grow up around this environment.

s.pasanen
9th Aug 2011, 20:22
When have I (or anyone else for that matter) said that these people are rioting for some (mutual) cause? I haven’t. Im just trying to say that if this much people are ready to join riots and potentially even get hurt in there themselves, then there is something wrong within your society. If there are this much people who just simply doesn’t care, then there MUST be some problems within your society. Putting all the blame on the people is just simply ignoring the problems you have in there. Listen, I don’t know what those problems are but content people rarely participate in riots don’t you think?

Moorpheusl9
9th Aug 2011, 20:23
It's easier to understand when you grow up around this environment.

Agreed but still - destroying shops and businesses in your own area?

What will happen next week is that they'll be the first to complain that they've got nowhere to go cos they burnt out all the shops they went to.

SladeTeck
9th Aug 2011, 20:26
Agreed but still - destroying shops and businesses in your own area?

What will happen next week is that they'll be the first to complain that they've got nowhere to go cos they burnt out all the shops they went to.

Exactly. They will likely also complain about the Martial Law that was created because of what they did. What you get for burning cars and looting people. Does insurance cover your car, and home, in case of looting? Man, that would suck if it doesn't.

I'm still unsure if there are any actual civilian deaths as of yet. I would really hope these rioters are smart enough to not light that powder keg.

HERESY
9th Aug 2011, 20:29
I don't recall seeing your name as the OP, and I never voiced the opinion that cops aren't capable of doing wrong.

Is there a reason that you should recall seeing my name as the OP? All you have to do is read the five pages of this thread and you'll come to the obvious conclusion that it has morphed into something that is no longer exclusive to the incident in London. Moreover, was it ever implied or stated that you personally voiced the opinion that cops aren't capable of wrong or that you doubted it?


We are talking about whether it's a good idea or not to impose marshal law.

Actually we're talking about a multitude of things and it boils down to social mobility, group think, fight or flight response, lizard brain, the role of government, the role of citizens and accountability. Again, the thread has morphed into something beyond imposing marshal law in London and a reading of this thread will show this.


You are proving nothing to anybody here by posting videos of unrelated police brutality.

You're obviously a selective reader who isn't paying attention to the thread. Read post #12 and then read post #14.


Perhaps you can understand where my confusion is coming from. I think you make good of clarifying yourself a little here:

Your confusion comes from replying in haste and not critically reading the posts that have been made in this thread. Again, I encourage you to read the thread from start to finish. Moreover, I suggest you stop trying to pigeon hole, cherry pick and make it seem as if this thread is solely about London because it has morphed into something different. Now if the OP wants to focus strictly on London, that is different, but due to many being from places outside of London, it is only logical that we compare and contrast it to our area and what we may or may not have experienced when it comes to such things.


So, to be clear, you condone the riots, but support violent protest?

Why aren't you reading? If I just told you "Those two statements, taken in totality, should allow a reasonable person to come to the conclusion that I'm not endorsing these riots. " why then would you ask me if I condone the riots? I don't condone these riots nor do I condone violent protest in this situation. However, there are some situations where I completely condone rioting and violence.


When would it ever be the case where you could be sure that you had organized violent protest involving a particular group of like-minded individuals all fighting for justice and to better themselves? You believe in that? That it would ever happen? This example of rioting in London isn't kosher, but some other violent protest would be? Who would make that determination when there isn't anybody who is clearly in charge? When there are copycats? When they are associated with many more individuals who are just looking for the opportunity to loot things for themselves? You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

This statement is more proof that you're not reading what I'm posting. Study the American Revolution. Afterwards, google Nat Turner.


Do you support the 2nd amendment? Is this part of your thinking about "necessary" violent, and inevitable uprising?

In regards to the first question I'm not bound by any ammendment, rule or law, but for others I support the 2nd ammednment. In regards to the second question, again, google Nat Turner.

Chewy2nd
9th Aug 2011, 20:30
Exactly. They will likely also complain about the Martial Law that was created because of what they did. What you get for burning cars and looting people. Does insurance cover your car, and home, in case of looting? Man, that would suck if it doesn't.

I'm still unsure if there are any actual civilian deaths as of yet. I would really hope these rioters are smart enough to not light that powder keg.

A man was shot in his car yesterday in Croydon, he died today

The riots have reached Manchester, the iconic city of the north

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6185/6026824726_6ea356d01a_b.jpg

Moorpheusl9
9th Aug 2011, 20:31
Exactly. They will likely also complain about the Martial Law that was created because of what they did. What you get for burning cars and looting people. Does insurance cover your car, and home, in case of looting? Man, that would suck if it doesn't.

I'm still unsure if there are any actual civilian deaths as of yet. I would really hope these rioters are smart enough to not light that powder keg.

Someone has already died as a result of all this: I can't find the article on BBC, but this is on their live feed:

"A 26-year-old man shot in a car in Croydon last night has died in hospital"

I think it was gang related (as in, 2 rival gangs of looters).

I don't think insurance covers rioting at least - I think that comes under 'Civil Unrest' and isn't covered - looting will be the same if it's true.

Also - this is gonna cost a fair bit to rebuild all those shops etc. - gonna have to come out of innocent, taxpayer money that will.

HERESY
9th Aug 2011, 20:31
I was going to make a long written statement to HERESY about what he had to say. That said, I'll say this, you should be careful not to assume stuff. I fight/fought for your right to say whatever you want, but, that doesn't mean I have to save you when the Hell comes down.

Is this statement directed at me?

JCpies
9th Aug 2011, 20:33
Agreed but still - destroying shops and businesses in your own area?

What will happen next week is that they'll be the first to complain that they've got nowhere to go cos they burnt out all the shops they went to.

It's because they take everything for granted. The youth around here don't realise how easy they have it.

Right now, the riots are more about psycology, the group mentality and wanting to join in and feeling as though they're in a position of power.

SladeTeck
9th Aug 2011, 20:38
A man was shot in his car yesterday in Croydon, he died today

The riots have reached Manchester, the iconic city of the north

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6185/6026824726_6ea356d01a_b.jpg

Damn. Also that image is huge. Please scale it down if possible.

Also, a weird note, are those windows open? They look almost blown open.


Someone has already died as a result of all this: I can't find the article on BBC, but this is on their live feed:

"A 26-year-old man shot in a car in Croydon last night has died in hospital"

I think it was gang related (as in, 2 rival gangs of looters).

I don't think insurance covers rioting at least - I think that comes under 'Civil Unrest' and isn't covered - looting will be the same if it's true.

Also - this is gonna cost a fair bit to rebuild all those shops etc. - gonna have to come out of innocent, taxpayer money that will.

Yeah, that's terrible. I think the innocents have suffered enough, but killing is just going to make that much worse. One is enough, but if there are more than that then Martial Law needs to be imposed just so they don't kill each other and other innocent civilians. Anarchy and Chaos, are not what a civilized society needs and or requires.

We really need a Batman right now. Or any army of Batmen.


Is this statement directed at me?

Never mind it.

Moorpheusl9
9th Aug 2011, 20:43
Also, a weird note, are those windows open? They look almost blown open.

They look like they're hinged at the top rather than at the side :D

MaceUk
9th Aug 2011, 20:45
Just watching it live on http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675 and the messages flashing up along the bottom of the screen saying 'Met Police: urge parents to keep their children inside', lol it's not little Timmy doing some shouting it's thugs who have parents that don't give a damn what their kids do!

SladeTeck
9th Aug 2011, 20:46
They look like they're hinged at the top rather than at the side :D

Ah, okay, that's what it is. I was looking at the smoke in the background, but the windows kept bothering me. I'm used to the normal window panes I guess. :nut:

Neuromancer07
9th Aug 2011, 21:47
I think the solution is eminently clear;

1. Live in Australia.
2. Enjoy an inexplicably non-volatile society apart from the daily sorties of kangaroos with pilfered sports equipment fashioned into effective weapons and armour rampaging through the streets and the constant desire to move to a more interesting and less docile nation like the Netherlands or Morocco.

Actually just live in The Netherlands... for obvious reasons.

iloveyouXWORLD
9th Aug 2011, 22:03
"police and the CPS are considering using "virtual courts" to deal with high numbers of offenders"

well i hope they have virtual prisons to back that up.

Deus_Ex_Machina
9th Aug 2011, 23:02
Edit: Nevermind.

sonicsidewinder
9th Aug 2011, 23:21
It's no longer funny now that my home-town's been attacked... (not like it was funny anyway, guys)

Generation COD kids thinking they're big-time. Thinking it's funny?

Generation: I won't join the army cus i'll play COD cus i'm a f*king *****.

I've got a mate who's awaiting a job opportunity in Birkenhead. He must be ****ting himself now incase there'll be no job to go for.

Just wanna march into town wielding my Bo, beating the living sh1t out of them. Hope their parents all get thrown off their council estates onto the streets and get picked off one by one.

Ashpolt
9th Aug 2011, 23:22
When have I (or anyone else for that matter) said that these people are rioting for some (mutual) cause? I haven’t. Im just trying to say that if this much people are ready to join riots and potentially even get hurt in there themselves, then there is something wrong within your society. If there are this much people who just simply doesn’t care, then there MUST be some problems within your society. Putting all the blame on the people is just simply ignoring the problems you have in there. Listen, I don’t know what those problems are but content people rarely participate in riots don’t you think?

Why does it have to be something wrong with society? Sometimes people are just stupid and do things without thinking of or caring about the consequences. It's the world.

And if it is a problem with society, why can't it be that, like I said above, we've been too lenient on criminal behaviour before? Why must this be a case of the "poor man's problems"? Why are you so certain that the looters are not, at the root, at fault here?

Romeo
9th Aug 2011, 23:41
No, no. These are actual events with concrete evidence and the officers received punishment for the horrible acts they committed. In fact, it's the best video documentary I've seen this year. I wish every to see it because it's so eye opening, emotional, and reveals what was going on in N.O. It's a PBS flick ;)
Alright then... Just this once, I'll take a gander... ;)

Yeah, the perspective is very different. We have a culture of disapproval, and seemingly universal distrust. We distrust politicians, policemen, protesters, rioters, people with more money than us, people with less money than us, people with as much money as us (the swine!), and so forth. (This is a gross generalisation, but you get what I mean). If a policeman shoots someone (even a serial murderer like Raoul Moat), the public disapproves. If they do nothing, they disapprove. If there is a riot, the public disapproves. If a politician gives out benefits to the people, he's buying people's votes and we disapprove. If he cuts benefits, he's a callous bastard and we disapprove. We disapprove of most things as a society, we don't really have some kind of plurality consensus, or the deeply polarised society that you seem to have in America. (As an aside from a non-American perspective, in your country so many things seem to dissolve into two sides. Abortion, guns, deficits, military power... with both sides having powerful lobbies. Over here, we're so cynical that society very rarely seems to form these camps. We just hate everything, and 90% of the time we're proven right to just hate everything, because most things are hateful one way or another.

This is just my personal view of the situation.
I know precisely what you mean. Just in Vancouver last month we had a vote on how to manage our taxes: We could maintain the HST (Combines all our sales tax in to one thing) at 10%, or have seperate PST and GST at 12%. I see what you mean about being unhappy, because I was unhappy with both choices. I would've preferred the HST stayed, and have been left at 12% (That money has to come from somewhere... Here comes the taxes) and I hadn't realized until you pointed it out that people are never happy with a situation, because we always seem to imagine ourselves doing better. "I wouldn't have shot that poor man, I would've stopped and analyzed the situation before shooting."

...It's rather easy to judge from afar, but how many of you would've actually sat calm and figured out that the bullet that just hit you wasn't from the armed individual you're dealing with, but a ricochet from your own squad? My physics teacher used to be in the Romanian military as a machine gunner, and she admitted that when your life is in danger, you'll shoot at anything that moves (She told us that she once began unloading at some movement only to realize it was nothing more than a leaf that had blown in the breeze). Does that make the situation right? No. But why is this individual armed? Why was there a confrontation with the police to begin with? I'm sure there is some blame to be laid with the police, but people seem to forget that they are still humans. A shot rang out, he panicked and defended himself. It wasn't him going out of his way to target the person. He didn't execute him.

Again, POM, you manage to summerize the story perfectly: As humans, we tend to hate anything. Because frankly, that's easier than admitting you could do no better.

Citizen_Snips
9th Aug 2011, 23:45
^^THIS. THIS. +4 free internets for life. :thumb:

Also, those girls need some sort of wake up call. Just listening to them makes me want to punch something.

You really think a couple of drunk girls know what they are rioting for? I guarantee men started it and the women followed. "Makes me want to punch something." Sounds like senseless violence to me much like...rioting? Who knows what really happened. Was it a drug bust gone bad that turned into a fire fight which lead to civil unrest and opportunists wreaking havoc. Or was it a bunch of girls who want t.vs?


^You'd be missing out if you didn't.

Romeo
9th Aug 2011, 23:57
You really think a couple of drunk girls know what they are rioting for? I guarantee men started it and the women followed. "Makes me want to punch something." Sounds like senseless violence to me much like...rioting? Who knows what really happened. Was it a drug bust gone bad that turned into a fire fight which lead to civil unrest and opportunists wreaking havoc. Or was it a bunch of girls who want t.vs?


^You'd be missing out if you didn't.
If you don't know what you're rioting for, you shouldn't god damn riot. Why are you even bothering to argue that? I don't blame him for being upset, their stupidity offends me too.

As for your last point, at the moment, it does seem like a bunch of tools that want TVs.

jtr7
10th Aug 2011, 00:18
It's all opportunism and getting back at The Man. Same old story. But they shoot themselves in the foot by giving the entities they are trying to hurt justification to raise prices and lower quality and keep wages as low as they can get away with.

sonicsidewinder
10th Aug 2011, 00:42
Pete gets it. (http://radioplayer.radiocity.co.uk/)

edit: ends at 2:00am gmt

Neuromancer07
10th Aug 2011, 01:33
Just wanna march into town wielding my Bo, beating the living sh1t out of them. Hope their parents all get thrown off their council estates onto the streets and get picked off one by one.

That's precisely the attitude you've become nearly homicidal over.

cartridge
10th Aug 2011, 04:16
First of all, I apologize for the double post. Don't know why that happened.

I looked more deeply into the matter and I discovered something interesting. The London Police task force that was responsible for firing on the 29 year old suspect, Mark Duggan, was part of Operation Trident, a predominantly white unit that specifically investigates the black community for gun crime in London.

I've always been aware of the racial tension in the United Kingdom, especially during the 80's and early 90's with Combat 18, but I had no idea that in 2011 there is a modern-day police unit in a modern-day metropolitan city that admittedly, outright states they are committed to racial profiling instead of focusing on the crimes of ALL people. The 29 year old suspect, Mark Duggan, may have been the aggressor and was probably deservedly shot by officers defending themselves, but Operation Trident is a big step back for civilized people everywhere.

I guess some things never change.

That's pretty ****ed up. Let them riot. In a system like that, it's probably the only shot they'll have.

MaxxQ1
10th Aug 2011, 05:02
And if it is a problem with society, why can't it be that, like I said above, we've been too lenient on criminal behaviour before?

Damn librulls!!!!!111111oneoneone

:D

Brockxz
10th Aug 2011, 06:09
from Twitter:
Waterstone's employee: "we'll stay open, if they steal some books they might learn something" #londonriots

Romeo
10th Aug 2011, 07:03
from Twitter:
Waterstone's employee: "we'll stay open, if they steal some books they might learn something" #londonriots
If I lived in London, I would head down there and personally high five every single person who worked there, just to be sure I high-fived that individual.

s.pasanen
10th Aug 2011, 07:49
Why does it have to be something wrong with society? Sometimes people are just stupid and do things without thinking of or caring about the consequences. It's the world.

You mean, why does it have to be something wrong with society if people are rioting in the streets? Well isn’t that pretty obvious that there is something wrong within the society if you have large amount of people putting themselves in risk of injury just to go out to riot, loot shops and fight police? They aren’t content people just so you know.

You are calling these people stupid and saying that they don’t care about the consuquences, well ok, lets just say that these people riot simply because they are stupid and that they don’t care about the consuquences. Now, where these “stupid careless people” come from? They come from your society, that’s what is breeding these “stupid careless people”.


And if it is a problem with society, why can't it be that, like I said above, we've been too lenient on criminal behaviour before?

If you think that you have problems with this kind of people because you have too lenient punishments then for example, ist those too lenient punishments a problem within your society? Isnt it the societys fault that it is letting these people go too easily? If its not a problem within your society then what is it? Im not saying that too lenient punishments would be the problem though, im just trying to make you see the big picture here: If you have people rioting in the streets, one way or another the problem is in your society. For example, if you have mental patients running around braking stuff, well that would be a problem, then your society needs to take care of these people, give them treatment.


Why must this be a case of the "poor man's problems"? Why are you so certain that the looters are not, at the root, at fault here?

Well obviously those rioters are the problem, but the question is WHY do these people riot in the streets? Well you say that its because they are “stupid careless people”. But what created these “stupid careless people” if not your own society? Nothing that you say cannot change the fact that those people who are rioting in the streets, are nothing but the products of your own society, if you disagree then please prove me wrong.

maikaal
10th Aug 2011, 09:41
There would be no riots if immigrants stayed in their own countries, simple as that.

Ashpolt
10th Aug 2011, 09:55
@s.pasanen: Clearly this can be attributed to society in the sense that, as I've said several times before, we've been too lenient on thuggish behaviour and petty criminality in the past, and given the non-working classes too much for free. So, if you want to say it's down to society, then you can do so that way.

The thing is, the way you've phrased it, particularly your early mentioned of the "rich / poor divide", makes it sounds like you're trying to blame society for not doing enough for these people, which couldn't be further from the case. It sounds like you're making the same argument as Camila Batmanghelidjh*, the journalist from The Independent who wrote the following:


"Walk on the estate stairwells with your baby in a buggy manoeuvring past the condoms, the needles, into the lift where the best outcome is that you will survive the urine stench and the worst is that you will be raped . . . It's not one occasional attack on dignity, it's a repeated humiliation, being continuously dispossessed in a society rich with possession. Young, intelligent citizens of the ghetto seek an explanation for why they are at the receiving end of bleak Britain, condemned to a darkness where their humanity is not even valued enough to be helped."

In other words, "These people are rioting because the government doesn't give them enough." But look at it more closely, what have the government actually done here? They've given these people cheap housing. The condoms, the needles, the lift smelling of urine, the danger of rape - they're all caused by the people, not the government. It's what I said before: these people have been given a host of benefits, if they've chosen to squander those benefits and make their areas into a hellhole then that's their own doing. It's not the government's job to stop people from hurting themselves.

(I'm aware that the entire section above may be irrelevant to you, if you're happy to accept the idea that it's society's "fault" only insofar as we've been too lenient on crime and generous with benefits, and you're not trying to make the point that this is a case of "poor man's problems" - but it's still an important point and I wanted to make it in a broad sense even if it's not strictly countering what you so.)

Plus, of course, if you're going to blame society for this, whatever way you choose to do so, then you've got to also thank society for the 99% of people in this country who aren't rioting. If you're going to attribute every bad action people make to society, then you have to attribute all the good they do to society too.

*Unrelated post-script: Her surname starts with "Batman." Awesome.

JCpies
10th Aug 2011, 09:55
There would be no riots if immigrants stayed in their own countries, simple as that.

That's a broad statement.

Gaughranorama
10th Aug 2011, 09:56
There would be no riots if immigrants stayed in their own countries, simple as that.

You ignorant, racist asshat.

Ashpolt
10th Aug 2011, 09:58
Oh wow, just saw maikaal's post after I finished my last one...


There would be no riots if immigrants stayed in their own countries, simple as that.

No. That's a hideously ignorant statement. This isn't a race issue. There are plenty of white faces in the crowd of looters and thugs.

imported_the_guy
10th Aug 2011, 09:59
Most of the people rioting are just 16 years old, they have no prospects, what with older generations having used up all the resources, there aren't any jobs to go around, it's unlikely they have a proper father figure. Don't be too hard on them, yeah, if they break into your house chase them out but people should be putting more effort into making the future brighter for these kids.

ocstew
10th Aug 2011, 10:34
http://images.brisbanetimes.com.au/file/2011/08/09/2545953/london30.jpg
http://images.brisbanetimes.com.au/file/2011/08/09/2545448/london11.jpg
http://images.brisbanetimes.com.au/file/2011/08/09/2545418/london2.jpg

"Breaking news, the riots continue in the streets of 'London'."

When I saw this I was reminded of that CGI trailer.

Brockxz
10th Aug 2011, 10:38
Oh wow, just saw maikaal's post after I finished my last one...
No. That's a hideously ignorant statement. This isn't a race issue. There are plenty of white faces in the crowd of looters and thugs.

emm immigrants from my country would be all white :D and i can say that there is at least few ten thousands of them in UK, Ireland etc. Take some more immigrants from other eastern Europa countries and you already have a lot of trouble there. Almost every week i read at least one news story about someone from Latvia messing with law in UK or Ireland.
So there is some truth in maikaal's post. So everyone who say maikaal is racist is wrong.

JCpies
10th Aug 2011, 10:44
Racism doesn't pertain to skin colour.

ocstew
10th Aug 2011, 10:45
emm immigrants from my country would be all white :D and i can say that there is at least few ten thousands of them in UK, Ireland etc. Take some more immigrants from other eastern Europa countries and you already have a lot of trouble there. Almost every week i read at least one news story about someone from Latvia messing with law in UK or Ireland.
So there is some truth in maikaal's post. So everyone who say maikaal is racist is wrong.

He is racist and there is some truth in his post. You're being racist too, do you honestly think its the immigrants who are causing the trouble?

Ashpolt
10th Aug 2011, 10:56
Most of the people rioting are just 16 years old, they have no prospects, what with older generations having used up all the resources, there aren't any jobs to go around, it's unlikely they have a proper father figure. Don't be too hard on them, yeah, if they break into your house chase them out but people should be putting more effort into making the future brighter for these kids.

Here's that quote again:

"I'm getting a little sick of hearing that children provided with 11 years of free education are deprived of prospects or opportunity."

And it's not just free education - kids 16 to 19 from "impoverished areas" actually get paid to go to school! Plus they get cheap housing, a whole range of financial benefits, free Oyster cards (for those that live in London)....these kids are given plenty of opportunities to make a bright future for themselves. It's not up to the government to force them to do so.

They may be just teenagers, but if they're old enough to commit serious criminal activity then they're old enough to be held responsible for it.

Brockxz
10th Aug 2011, 11:00
Racism doesn't pertain to skin colour.

I'm sorry if you think so because racism in my country means only conflict differences between skin colour (race). We have other words in my native language to describe differences in social, ethnic believes etc. Mostly you can say it's "discrimination between different social groups or something like that" not racism.

maikaal
10th Aug 2011, 11:08
You ignorant, racist asshat.


This isn't a race issue. There are plenty of white faces in the crowd of looters and thugs.

You two, read my post again and point out where exactly I mentioned race or color in it? Nowhere. I did mention immigrants tho, that I did.

Čau Brock xD

Ashpolt
10th Aug 2011, 11:14
OK, maybe it's not necessarily an issue of skin colour, but that's splitting hairs really.

However, immigration is an issue of race. The only difference between you and an immigrant is their race, so if you're discriminating against immigrants, you're discriminating based on race.

Brockxz
10th Aug 2011, 11:18
OK, maybe it's not necessarily an issue of skin colour, but that's splitting hairs really.

However, immigration is an issue of race. The only difference between you and an immigrant is their race, so if you're discriminating against immigrants, you're discriminating based on race.

It's discrimination based on nationality not race. Immigration involves conflicts between nationality and there is a lot of nationality problems here in Latvia (russian and latvian speaking not always like each other here). Same problem i see there in UK just reading news how natives doesn't like immigrants who take away job opportunities from them
As i said, there is a lot of different words than racism to describe all those differences and discrimination. Too bad you all want to simplify that under one word racism.

Sveiks, maikaal, prieks redzēt, ka neesmu vienīgais DX fans no LV.

maikaal
10th Aug 2011, 11:31
However, immigration is an issue of race. The only difference between you and an immigrant is their race.

Now you've tangled in to your own beliefs. Can you please explain how is it an issue of race when a white immigrant goes to UK? He is caucasian and brits are causasian right, right? Just admit that you're overly sensitive towards the race matter, and that you're a non-white for that matter :rolleyes:

s.pasanen
10th Aug 2011, 11:39
@s.pasanen: Clearly this can be attributed to society in the sense that, as I've said several times before, we've been too lenient on thuggish behaviour and petty criminality in the past, and given the non-working classes too much for free. So, if you want to say it's down to society, then you can do so that way.

You said yourself that “maybe we’ve been too lenient on criminal behavior before.” Who’s the “we”? If its not the society then who are the “we” that have been too lenient on criminal behavior? Seriously.


The thing is, the way you've phrased it, particularly your early mentioned of the "rich / poor divide", makes it sounds like you're trying to blame society for not doing enough for these people, which couldn't be further from the case.

So you are saying that goverment and the whole society is doing plenty for poor people who are being left outside from our society?

Example:

(remember this is just example)

Ok first we must mutually agree that poor people aren’t genetically different from the rest of us, so basicly this means that they aren’t born as “stupid scum” (or whatever you prefer to call them), I belive we can both relate to that. Ok, now, do you belive that you really have the same options in life regardless of in wich familyclass/area you were born in? Do you belive that as a human being you REALLY have on average the same change to make it in life if you were born in a ghetto as does the one who was born in a lets say in middle class? If you say that they both have equal change to really “make it” in life then how come it be that there aren’t that many students from ghetto in universitys even though they aren’t genetically any different from other people? Why there aren’t that many people (if any really) from ghetto as high government officials? Why the ones that were born in ghetto usually die in ghetto? The answer is that THEY DO NOT EVEN GET THE SAME OPPRTUNITY IN LIFE AS THE REST OF US GETS! Why this is happening? Well maybe they have their own culture in there, a ghetto culture, and culture can be very brooding especially for kid whos growing up in that kind of environment. Government should do more for these people to try and bring them back to our society, not just hand out apartments, clean needles and condoms, since that’s not really helping them to changing their "culture", that’s like keeping a junkie happy and quiet by giving him some drugs.


Who “made” these ghettos if it wasn’t your society? Who gave these people the “land to settle” in the outskirts of the city and let them build their own “culture of none education” if it wasn’t your society? Who is the only one who can revert this progress? Answer: Society and goverment. I mean of course some people have made some bad decisions in life to get there in the first place, but that’s not a reason for us to shut our eyes from them and from their offspring for generations to come.


Yes I know, those rioting in England arent exactly from ghettos but that text above was just an example to broaden your view.



They've given these people cheap housing. The condoms, the needles, the lift smelling of urine, the danger of rape - they're all caused by the people, not the government.

You must also understand that if the goverment doesnt really try to bring these people back into the society then its not going to get any better. If you shut your eyes from these things then you are part of the problem. Just by saying that "Meh, I did my best" or "Meh, goverment does their best because they give them house to live in and money" isnt going to help this situation. You should try to bring them back into society not just share them clean needles!



It's not the government's job to stop people from hurting themselves.

Well theres a matter of fact one of governments most important jobs is to prevent its citizens from hurting themselves. I mean isn’t that why we have laws and restriction? If government isn’t trying to prevent its citizens from hurting themselves then what for we have lets say speed limits? Why is it prohibited to kill someone if not for the reason that government tries to protect its citizens? Do I need to go on with this?


Plus, of course, if you're going to blame society for this, whatever way you choose to do so, then you've got to also thank society for the 99% of people in this country who aren't rioting. If you're going to attribute every bad action people make to society, then you have to attribute all the good they do to society too.

YES EXACTLY! But as you can see this also works the other way around, if the society is responsible for all the good things, then it must also be responsible for all the bad things. Thats a great way to say it, you really helped my case here, thanks. All im saying is that we need to develop our society (in good direction) so that we dont have huge amounts of dissent poor people left alone living in one specific area.

Ashpolt
10th Aug 2011, 12:09
Now you've tangled in to your own beliefs. Can you please explain how is it an issue of race when a white immigrant goes to UK? He is caucasian and brits are causasian right, right? Just admit that you're overly sensitive towards the race matter, and that you're a non-white for that matter :rolleyes:

No, I'm white, my lineage is purely British (75% English, 25% Welsh) and I've lived in England my entire life, so don't make lazy assumptions. I don't have to be of a different race, nationality or colour to see through your ignorant hate speech.

And OK, I failed to differentiate between discrimination based on race and discrimination based on nationality - but the two are so closely linked that one will almost invariably lead to another, and in any case, they're both still discrimination based on nothing more than the circumstances of a person's birth, and nothing they can control. You can try and rationalise it any way you like if it makes you feel better, but you're still discriminating based on a person's circumstance rather than their actions.


You said yourself that “maybe we’ve been too lenient on criminal behavior before.” Who’s the “we”? If its not the society then who are the “we” that have been too lenient on criminal behavior? Seriously.

Society was the "we" there. I was, if not necessarily agreeing with your point, at least offering a way in which your point could be considered.


So you are saying that goverment and the whole society is doing plenty for poor people who are being left outside from our society?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. The government offers plenty of support for poor people. If they're "outside" of society, it's through their own choice.


Ok first we must mutually agree that poor people aren’t genetically different from the rest of us, so basicly this means that they aren’t born as “stupid scum” (or whatever you prefer to call them), I belive we can both relate to that. Ok, now, do you belive that you really have the same options in life regardless of in wich familyclass/area you were born in? Do you belive that as a human being you REALLY have on average the same change to make it in life if you were born in a ghetto as does the one who was born in a lets say in middle class? If you say that they both have equal change to really “make it” in life then how come it be that there aren’t that many students from ghetto in universitys even though they aren’t genetically any different from other people? Why there aren’t that many people (if any really) from ghetto as high government officials? Why the ones that were born in ghetto usually die in ghetto? The answer is that THEY DO NOT EVEN GET THE SAME OPPRTUNITY IN LIFE AS THE REST OF US GETS! Why this is happening? Well maybe they have their own culture in there, a ghetto culture, and culture can be very brooding especially for kid whos growing up in that kind of environment. Government should do more for these people to try and bring them back to our society, not just hand out apartments, clean needles and condoms, since that’s not really helping them to changing their "culture", that’s like keeping a junkie happy and quiet by giving him some drugs.

I agree that the poor aren't born genetically inferior in anyway - of course I agree with that. And no, they aren't presented with exactly the same opportunities as everyone else, but the crucial point is that they are presented with sufficient opportunity to make a good life for themselves. They may not have the money to go to university, for instance, unlike the middle class - but they've still got free education up to the age of 18 which, if they take it and work hard at it (remember, as we both agreed, they're not genetically inferior, so they're just as capable of learning as the middle class if they work at it) and that will be sufficient to get them a decent job. Hell, even if they don't see their learning through until the end, there's still a whole range of unskilled labour positions. Even if they don't (or can't) get those positions, there's employment benefit. As I've said time and time again, it's not government's job to force people to take responsibility for their own lives, it's only their job to provide people with the opportunity to do so.

As for "ghetto culture," it's self perpetuating, and again it's not a government matter beyond what they're already doing. Ghetto culture teaches kids that learning is for losers and that crime is the way to go, which just breeds more ghetto culture, which just teaches the same lessons to their kids, etc etc. The government already provides a way out, a means for these people to "come back into society" - and again, it's not their job to force people to take it, only to provide it.


Who “made” these ghettos if it wasn’t your society? Who gave these people the “land to settle” in the outskirts of the city and let them build their own “culture of none education” if it wasn’t your society? Who is the only one who can revert this progress? Answer: Society and goverment. I mean of course some people have made some bad decisions in life to get there in the first place, but that’s not a reason for us to shut our eyes from them and from their offspring for generations to come.

No. Government and society made the houses, it was the people living in them turned them into ghettos. Government provided free education, it was the "culture of non-education" which caused those people to reject it. It is up to these people to change their own attitudes to life if they want to be part of society.


YES EXACTLY! But as you can see this also works the other way around, if the society is responsible for all the good things, then it must also be responsible for all the bad things. Thats a great way to say it, you really helped my case here, thanks. All im saying is that we need to develop our society (in good direction) so that we dont have huge amounts of dissent poor people left alone living in one area.

Actually, I don't believe this at all, I was just seeing if you would go all the way with your belief which, admittedly, you did. But I don't say society is to thank for (for example) me getting a degree and a good job. I thank them for providing the schools and university that I attended to get the education to get the job, but it was my hard work and study that got me that degree at the end of the day, not society. I took advantage of the opportunities presented to me, and that was my decision and responsibility, in the same way that it's the choice of these "out of society" people to not take the opportunities that are presented to them.

iloveyouXWORLD
10th Aug 2011, 12:13
No, I'm white, my lineage is purely British (75% English, 25% Welsh) and I've lived in England my entire life, so don't make lazy assumptions. I don't have to be of a different race, nationality or colour to see through your ignorant hate speech.

Ha! no one is purely british. even the queen has german & dutch in her. all the wars throughout the ages has led everyone to become a big mix of everything.

Ashpolt
10th Aug 2011, 13:23
Ha! no one is purely british. even the queen has german & dutch in her. all the wars throughout the ages has led everyone to become a big mix of everything.

If we're going to trace things back as far as we go, then everyone's the same nationality, because we all originally came out of somewhere in Africa. :rolleyes: But, of course, we don't, because that would be stupid. I'm pure British as far as "British" can be defined.

TrickyVein
10th Aug 2011, 13:56
Does anyone here actually think that they're entitled to something? That just because of accident of birth or citizenship, or socioeconomic status that an individual deserves more than someone else? I don't care what underbelly of society you come from, or whatever cocked-up notion you have of race or ethnicity, that is the lamest argument in favor of these riots that I could ever read. Blaming society for not providing? Destroying other peoples lives because of it?

There's a disconnect here. As in not-making-sense. Young people with not enough education and too much freedom to cause harm (to themselves for avoiding said education and others because of it). There's a problem for you.

Also, there is no biologically useful definition of race. In terms of genetic variation, far less separates individuals then some arbitrary, visual characteristic like skin color. It could be hair. The length of your arms. Doesn't matter. It's purely a cultural construct. These are not meritorious arguments.

Tverdyj
10th Aug 2011, 15:14
while it seems the initial death was the fault of the police (although the man still had a gun, which is still illegal),

I don't think that can account for riots all over the country.
While I wouldn't want them to place the country under martial law, I certainly wish the British Governmnet and police stepped up, to actually arrest the rioters, fine them to hell and back, and make young idiots with entitlement issues understand that there are consequences to their actions.

MaceUk
10th Aug 2011, 16:33
even the queen has german & dutch in her. :naughty:

iloveyouXWORLD
10th Aug 2011, 17:01
:naughty:

lol you dirty little man!

s.pasanen
10th Aug 2011, 18:46
Ashpolt@ Now I must say that you are so very, very ignorant to the facts and realities of life.

You admitted that children born in the ghetto doesn’t have the same opportunities that those have who are born in (lets say) middle class, but because they (people born in ghetto that is) have –sufficient- opportunities they should make it in life just as good as the rest of us. If you give some people better possibilities than some other people, then can you really expect the same kind of “results” from both of them? No you cant, and this completely waters down your whole point.


As I've said time and time again, it's not government's job to force people to take responsibility for their own lives, it's only their job to provide people with the opportunity to do so.

Equal opportunities. Government should provide people with equal opportunities, this is not happening now. Even though you say that it is still possible for a child born in ghetto to get a good job and make loads of money. Well yes it is possible, but then again almost anything is possible in life, but the point is, and as you admitted it yourself, that they do not have the same opportunities to make that happen as do the rest of us. So the odds for someone born in ghetto to make loads of money (or even decent amount) is way much smaller than it is for the rest of us. All this is allready decided when the baby is born. That my friend is NOT FAIR! It just isnt, no matter how you try to put it. I don’t care whos fault it is that these people have ended up in the ghetto, but the children born in those circumstances should not be the ones paying for it, but this is EXACTLY what is happening right now, and frankly the only one that can save them from their destiny is the government and the society. They obviously cannot do it by themselves, not least for the reason that they arent even given the same change in life as others. I mean if you really dont care about these people, then at least think this way that we loose hundreds of thousands of talents all the time just because they have different backround than us. We loose artists, sportsman comedians, musicans, scientist etc etc.. There they are! In the same country! What a waste..



No. Government and society made the houses, it was the people living in them turned them into ghettos. Government provided free education, it was the "culture of non-education" which caused those people to reject it. It is up to these people to change their own attitudes to life if they want to be part of society.

Government puts poor people with problems in the same place, how in the hell that suppose to help them? As far as I can see it only makes things worst, as you should propably see for yourself by whats happening in your country right now. Also, you are damn right about that the "culture of non-education" made these kids to turn down education, you know it, I know it and the goverment knows it, STILL they wont do anything about it. Not good, not good at all.


But I don't say society is to thank for (for example) me getting a degree and a good job. I thank them for providing the schools and university that I attended to get the education to get the job, but it was my hard work and study that got me that degree at the end of the day, not society.

Im not too sure are you pulling my leg here, I mean thats a huge load of :whistle:

So society is not to thank for your degree and good job? Society is not to thank for your “good” social status because it only gave you the opportunity to go to study and get to work in the first place? So you would have somehow managed to get a degree and a good job without the help of society? Excuse me but where would you study or work if the society wouldnt offer you these opportunities? Do you even know what the word “society” even contains? Without society you wouldn’t have anything other than what you can make yourself with your own bare hands. “A society allows its members to realize needs or wishes they cannot fulfill alone. In this circumstance they need to work for the global success of the society as a prerequisite for achieving their own individual success (so social goals and individual goals are not mutually exclusive).” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society


You truly seem to have a twisted image about society and how it works. This “debate” is getting pretty damn hilarious cause first you said that its not the governments job to stop people from hurting themselves and now you say that its not the society to thank for your degree and good job. Im sorry but im really about to give up on this one.

TrickyVein
10th Aug 2011, 19:16
'scuse me.


Equal opportunities. Government should provide people with equal opportunities, this is not happening now. Even though you say that it is still possible for a child born in ghetto to get a good job and make loads of money. Well yes it is possible, but then again almost anything is possible in life, but the point is, and as you admitted it yourself, that they do not have the same opportunities to make that happen as do the rest of us. So the odds for someone born in ghetto to make loads of money (or even decent amount) is way much smaller than it is for the rest of us. All this is allready decided when the baby is born. That my friend is NOT FAIR! It just isnt, no matter how you try to put it. I don’t care whos fault it is that these people have ended up in the ghetto, but the children born in those circumstances should not be the ones paying for it, but this is EXACTLY what is happening right now, and frankly the only one that can save them from their destiny is the government and the society. They obviously cannot do it by themselves, not least for the reason that they arent even given the same change in life as others. I mean if you really dont care about these people, then at least think this way that we loose hundreds of thousands of talents all the time just because they have different backround than us. We loose artists, sportsman comedians, musicans, scientist etc etc.. There they are! In the same country! What a waste. [Bold added]

This sentiment, and whether or not you agree that it is on society to "lift up" disadvantaged individuals is the dividing line - more or less, I think most would say - between conservatives and liberals (though I hate using those buzz-words) at least in the United States; of course we should want everyone to have equal opportunities and for there to be the same future for everyone...but what planet are you from? I also want there to be world-peace and an end to world-hunger and an end to world-pollution and an unlimited supply of cookies and cream for every man woman and child. It's not going to happen, and as you say yourself, you can't blame any group or one institution for what is essentially your life, the situation you are born into. (You could also argue that being too socialist drives towards mediocrity, but that's for another debate. I don't think that, necessarily but many people do and there's probably some truth in that. There will always be haves and have-nots. Whatever, anyway...)

Every person has a choice; granted, not every person is going to accept that or assume personal responsibility for their lives, but these rioters are not "locked" into poverty or their socioeconomic class. Not in the West, not living as they are in one of the more affluent nations in the world. It is horridly pathetic, what we are seeing now. I don't think that Ashpolt is being obtuse or is "blind" to these realities that you have pointed out, and for that matter I think this is one of the better debates that we have going on these boards right now. :thumb:

Also, to address something else you said there (that's bolded) think about who's paying for these "impoverished" young people's circumstances, the fact that they weren't dealt a fair hand (as if anyone deserves such a thing): shop-keepers and people just like them going about there lives making do with what they have. All those businesses that have burned. Is that fair? :)

MaceUk
10th Aug 2011, 19:20
What pisses me off is hearing on the news and programmes discussing this and them calling these idiots 'working class'!

These chav scum have never done a days work in their lives and is an insult to working class people and the history of the label. They are lower class if even that, certainly lower than animals in my view.

JCpies
10th Aug 2011, 19:58
What pisses me off is hearing on the news and programmes discussing this and them calling these idiots 'working class'!

These chav scum have never done a days work in their lives and is an insult to working class people and the history of the label. They are lower class if even that, certainly lower than animals in my view.

:thumb: JCpie likes this post.

s.pasanen
10th Aug 2011, 20:29
TrickyVein@ The goverment should at least try to give everyone the same change at life. I don’t belive they are doing that right now, I mean, I don’t belive they are trying hard enough. Ashpolt (and perhaps you also?) over here seems to think that the government has gave its best shot in this matter because they give them housing, condoms, needles and money but I strongly disagree with him. They aren’t really trying to bring these people back to the society, they are just trying to keep em quiet. I know it is an utopia that everyone in the whole wide world would have the same exact possibilities in life without looking at where he/she was born, since there will always be people who will have better opportunities and there will always be people with worst opportunities, after all we are only humans. But just like the infamous world-piece, we should at least give it our best shot and try to make things better in that matter. If somebody thinks that that’s just like asking cookies and cream for everyone then so be it, that’s their opinion and they are entitled to it. I still would think that many people in this world would choose the equal opportunity in life over the their share of cookies and cream.


It's not going to happen, and as you say yourself, you can't blame any group or one institution for what is essentially your life, the situation you are born into.

In my last post I said this: "Government puts poor people with problems in the same place, how in the hell that suppose to help them? As far as I can see it only makes things worst, as you should propably see for yourself by whats happening in your country right now. Also, you are damn right about that the "culture of non-education" made these kids to turn down education, you know it, I know it and the goverment knows it, STILL they wont do anything about it. Not good, not good at all."

So yes I blame the goverment and the society for not doing enough to help these people, on the contrary, they just put them in the same place, like that would do any good.

What we have now is society that does not (and IMO, doesnt even try to) give even nearly the same opportunity to everyone and also at the same time our society is disqusted by these people who doesnt do as well as they do. :scratch:


Every person has a choice; granted, not every person is going to accept that or assume personal responsibility for their lives, but these rioters are not "locked" into poverty or their socioeconomic class.

I have already pointed out (quite a many times infact) that poor child living in certain area with other poor people have worse opportunities in life than the child has who was born in lets say middle class family. If some people get better change in life than some other people just because they were born elsewhere (or for any other reason for that matter) then on average they are going make better “results”. So its just so damn stupid to say that "they are given a change but they just aren’t using it". Listen, im not any scientist so I cannot give you the correct explanation of why people who are born in ghetto –like places don’t value education, but I certainly know that they aren’t genetically different from us, they aren’t more stupid than we are, they were just raised in different way in different environment. We should try to revert this "ghetto development", the sooner the better.


I don't think that Ashpolt is being obtuse or is "blind" to these realities that you have pointed out..

Well to me it felt like it since he left many (quite simple) things without concideration and I had to point em out for him, for example that it really is the governments job to prevent people from getting hurt and that people need society to get, for example, education and job.


..and for that matter I think this is one of the better debates that we have going on these boards right now. :thumb:

Well at least its time consuming ;)


Also, to address something else you said there (that's bolded) think about who's paying for these "impoverished" young people's circumstances, the fact that they weren't dealt a fair hand (as if anyone deserves such a thing): shop-keepers and people just like them going about there lives making do with what they have. All those businesses that have burned. Is that fair? :)

Im not trying to justify rioting here but history has shown us (in many occasions) that if you suppress people for long enough, ultimately something bads going to happen. I think that answers your question well.

s.pasanen
10th Aug 2011, 20:41
Oh and btw, we are going to London next monday with my girlfriend :) We booked flights and stuff over a month ago. So we are reading these news about London with great precision :hmm:

EDIT: Good night :)

JCpies
10th Aug 2011, 20:48
S.pasanen, what country do you live in?

I'm not saying your arguments are invalid, but you don't seem to know the situations with "ghettos" and "the poor" here with as much precision as others do.

Neuromancer07
10th Aug 2011, 21:04
In this thread: Stereotyping the unemployed or those on government assistance as sub-human, base, lazy, selfish or stupid.

I have no time for people who won't assent to the essential premise that all people deserve dignity. Even the incarcerated must have it afforded to them and the sad history of penitentiaries and prisons will attest to the horror when it's robbed of people. Further this pervasive societal belief actually creates a psychological effect as demonstrated when Jane Elliott pioneered an experiment in her classroom in segregating children based on eye colour and inventing notions of inferiority of one group or another. Children who were one eye colour were claimed to be stupider and less able and their test results actually suffered. When the situation was reversed, the other group's performance declined. This is not counting the emotional strains, apathy, aggression and depression that such beliefs, even externally derived, entail.

Also equality of opportunity should be taken for granted by all rational individuals but it means nothing without equality of outcome.

Ashpolt
10th Aug 2011, 21:19
Ashpolt@ Now I must say that you are so very, very ignorant to the facts and realities of life.

I would say you're ignorant, because you seem to be incapable of believing that people ever just act without thought or reason. On top of that, you're ignoring - presumably wilfully - things I am stating to you about the situation. Not opinions, but cold hard facts about the sheer amounts of benefits these people are given. You say that the government needs to be doing more to help these people, but I ask you, what aren't the government doing to help them? They're giving them cheap housing, free education, money for nothing, free travel - what more could they be doing? They're giving people enough to live without having to work, and giving them the opportunities to work if they want to. The government has already done plenty.


You admitted that children born in the ghetto doesn’t have the same opportunities that those have who are born in (lets say) middle class, but because they (people born in ghetto that is) have –sufficient- opportunities they should make it in life just as good as the rest of us. If you give some people better possibilities than some other people, then can you really expect the same kind of “results” from both of them? No you cant, and this completely waters down your whole point.

You misunderstand me. Those people in the ghettos have the same government-given benefits and opportunities as me - more, actually, as the fact that I come from a middle class background means I wouldn't qualify for half of the benefits they receive. One example, but by no means the only one: I have a friend from a not very well off family (who, incidentally, is as appalled by the riots as I am) who lives in a 3 bedroom council house, the rent for which is about £150 a month. I would not be allowed to live in that house because I earn too much. Instead, I live in a single bedroom flat - the rent for which is £750 a month. I'm getting less living space for much more money simply because I am able to afford it.

Any extra benefits or opportunities I receive, such as the fact that I went to university, are not due to the government, but due to my parents - who worked hard to afford it (and a student loan, but again, that's available to everyone.) But to repeat, in terms of what the government does, I get less benefits than the poorer classes.

And even if we were living in some alternate universe where I did get more government-given benefits, while we may not be able to expect the same "results" from the poorer classes, we can still expect better than rioting, theft and arson. We may not be able to expect them all to become the next Alan Sugar, but that doesn't mean they're justified in become thugs either.

And that noted, it kind of undermines your next couple of paragraphs, so I'll skip ahead to the relevant bit.


I mean if you really dont care about these people, then at least think this way that we loose hundreds of thousands of talents all the time just because they have different backround than us. We loose artists, sportsman comedians, musicans, scientist etc etc.. There they are! In the same country! What a waste..

The 11 years of free education that the government provides these people - the same 11 years of free education I was provided with - are more than sufficient to allow them to become artists, sportsmen, comedians, musicians, scientists, etc etc. What is stopping them from doing so is not a lack of opportunities, but instead the culture of non-education and criminality which is self perpetuating no matter what the government do. Give them free education, and they don't go. Make them go, and they don't pay attention. As I've said time and time and time and time again, the government can only provide the opportunities - which they are doing - they can't force people to take them.


So society is not to thank for your degree and good job? Society is not to thank for your “good” social status because it only gave you the opportunity to go to study and get to work in the first place? So you would have somehow managed to get a degree and a good job without the help of society? Excuse me but where would you study or work if the society wouldnt offer you these opportunities? Do you even know what the word “society” even contains? Without society you wouldn’t have anything other than what you can make yourself with your own bare hands. “A society allows its members to realize needs or wishes they cannot fulfill alone. In this circumstance they need to work for the global success of the society as a prerequisite for achieving their own individual success (so social goals and individual goals are not mutually exclusive).” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society

And as above, this is the same point I've made time and time again: society (and my hard-working parents) provided me with the opportunities, but it was me who took them and made the best of them. Society gave me a university to study at, but it was my hard work that got me the degree. I'd damn well be held responsible for my actions if I developed a drug habit and wasted for my life - and rightly so - so I'm also responsible for taking the opposite path and making something of myself.

Let's set aside university though and just focus on school, that free education that's provided for everyone. With my 11 years of free education, I got 12 GCSEs - more than enough to get a decent job. Why, provided with the very same 11 years of free education, can others not do the same? If we write off the possibility genetic-level intellectual inferiority, which we both did earlier in this discussion, the difference is simply that I made the best of the opportunity, and they didn't. Oh sure, you can claim there's societal reasons they didn't work hard, but at the end of the day, they still had a choice. They were given the same tools as I was, and chose not to utilise them.

So let's end this post the way I started it, with that same question. The government are providing every citizen of this country with enough free education to get them into the job market, unemployment benefit if they fail to do so, cheap housing, benefits for pretty much every range of undesirable circumstances you imagine, free travel - they're even paying underprivileged children to go to school to incentivise them to do so. So what, I ask you, are they not doing?

---

[EDIT] Just seen Neuromancer's post.


In this thread: Stereotyping the unemployed or those on government assistance as sub-human, base, lazy, selfish or stupid.

No. We're claiming that those who riot, start fires and steal are base, lazy, selfish or stupid. There are plenty of poor people out there who weren't involved in the riots, and who do make the best of the opportunities society provides for them, and no negative judgement is being applied to them at all - at least, not by me. In fact, if anything, they prove the point I'm making - that there is enough government support available to everyone to make it if they choose to do so.


I have no time for people who won't assent to the essential premise that all people deserve dignity.

Again, I'm not arguing against this at all - instead, I'm arguing that the government provides sufficient support for people to have their dignity and more if they chose to take it. We're not talking about people lacking dignity here: they have houses, clothes, food, drink, and the freedom to do whatever they want within the boundaries of the law. They're not even close to lacking dignity. These "poor" people in question are better off than the middle classes of any number of other countries.


Even the incarcerated must have it afforded to them and the sad history of penitentiaries and prisons will attest to the horror when it's robbed of people. Further this pervasive societal belief actually creates a psychological effect as demonstrated when Jane Elliott pioneered an experiment in her classroom in segregating children based on eye colour and inventing notions of inferiority of one group or another. Children who were one eye colour were claimed to be stupider and less able and their test results actually suffered. When the situation was reversed, the other group's performance declined. This is not counting the emotional strains, apathy, aggression and depression that such beliefs, even externally derived, entail.

And who's the biggest purveyor of this negative attitude to the poor? Their own culture.


Also equality of opportunity should be taken for granted by all rational individuals but it means nothing without equality of outcome.

You can't force equality of outcome though. You can create equality of opportunity, but to attempt to force equality of outcome is the exact opposite of freedom: to give people the freedom to make something of themselves, you also have to give them the freedom not to. Trying to guarantee equality of outcome would require a police state, where the government not only provided the schools, but escorted the kids to them to make sure no one skived off, punished anyone who didn't pay attention in class and forced them to work extra time until they understood to the same level as everyone else, then once they'd learned, forced to take a job and forced to work at it until retirement age. This is not a world anyone should have to live in.

It's absolutely the government's job to provide equality of opportunity, and they do. It's neither their job or within their capability to create equality of outcome. As I've said to s.pasanen far too many times, the government can only show people the door, not make them go through it.

Solid_1723
10th Aug 2011, 21:24
Interesting discussion over here!

Well I'll have to side with Ashpolt,Tricky and the ones sharing in their view of things here.
There is only so much governments can do about social disparities. If you wanted to give everyone the exact same chances in life(which would clearly be a good thing), you would probably be heading for socialism/communism, which are nice ideas in theory, but in reality, they defy the very nature of human beings which is far from perfect.

I'm certain that the world you(s.pasanen) would envision will only be a possibility if humanity as a whole advances to a "higher" level. I can't see this happening in the near future though, as our societies are still defined by an still unavoidable disparity of limited recources.

I also have to disagree with the idea that government is always trying put poorer people into the same places/ghettos. Ghettos as such are not formed by governments.
Ghettos are often places where immigrants of a certain ethnicity choose to live, because they prefer to stick together and prefer to live in their specific subculture instead of trying to integrate. Same goes for natives of course.

That said, many governments actually try to integrate those people into society by offering language courses for immigrants for example or offering special job training, but sadly a great many people plainly refuse to integrate. They simply have no interest in doing so.:(

@s.pasanen: Sure you can always blame society for bad things happening, after all it is not even possible to find an explanation for any human behaviour without taking a look at their social background, but would you care to share some ideas of how governments could tackle the aforementioned problems? That would make for some even more interesting discussion perhaps, since the current one is kind of moving in circles.

deusexx
10th Aug 2011, 22:07
These riots are a result of many things. Too long the left wing have been in charge and have taken away ALL sorts of punishment from the authorities. No capital punishment, no corporal punishment, the police cannot even do their jobs as these cheeky fcukers are claiming injustice because a WELL KNOWN gang member who WAS ARMED got shot and killed. The general public should be apllauding the police for making a safer london then condemning them because they killed a 'good daddy' which i find very doubtful.
After the dust settles of these riots the right wing organisation's are going to see their poll's skyrocket as the majority of this country has simply had enough of the lax laws and judicial system and the amounts of handouts these thugs are given. These 'oppressed' youths complain about not having anything and the state already hands out WELL TOO MUCH to them as Ashpolt was saying. If people don't work they should be given nothing and if they die of starvation and poverty then they should have taken a ******* job.
It seems with the many many many vigilantes of all creed's and colours taking to the streets that a civil war is very much brewing.

s.pasanen
10th Aug 2011, 22:20
I should of gone to sleep allready, but what can I say, I took a little peek in here and id just had to answer.


I would say you're ignorant

Says the guy who thinks that society is not to thank for his achievements in studying and in getting a job and that its not the goverments job to protect its citizens..

You don’t get the same benefits from your government than what the poor people get? Really? But wich one needs those benefits more, you or the poor one? I just cant belive what you are actually saying here. Yes they get more money from the government than you, so what? You are not the one growing up in place where there are drugs and unemployment (and everything else) mixed together. Seriously, can you really say that you would have absolutely without a doubt made it to the same level (or perhaps even higher because of all the benefits) if you were born in ghetto –like place?

If people born in a ghetto get, as you said it, -more than sufficent- supply of everything to become practically everything they ever want to, then for example, why in the hell there aren’t any (or at least not too many) high government officials who has ghetto bacround? Or are there many scientist with a ghetto backround? If not then why is it? If things for them are as good as you say they are, then how come they just dont seem to make it in life? Whats the reason? You say that government does basicly all they can (and perhaps even more) to help these people, they get much more benefits than “normal” people gets, they get more than sufficient supply of everything, -WHY- they are still poor people without education? Please, enlighten me!

You really genuinly seem to think that these people get the same change as everyone else, I mean wow, that’s really amazing.


Also, without the help of society you wouldn’t have education nor would you have any job, its that simple. There isn’t really anything there to debate in this matter, you just make yourself look foolish if you continue on insisting otherwise.


S.pasanen, what country do you live in?

Finland

Solid_1723
10th Aug 2011, 22:26
I should of gone to sleep allready, but what can I say, I took a little peek in here and id just had to answer.



Says the guy who thinks that society is not to thank for his achievements in studying and in getting a job and that its not the goverments job to protect its citizens..

You don’t get the same benefits from your government than what the poor people get? Really? But wich one needs those benefits more, you or the poor one? I just cant belive what you are actually saying here. Yes they get more money from the government than you, so what? You are not the one growing up in place where there are drugs and unemployment (and everything else) mixed together. Seriously, can you really say that you would have absolutely without a doubt made it to the same level (or perhaps even higher because of all the benefits) if you were born in ghetto –like place?

If people born in a ghetto get, as you said it, -more than sufficent- supply of everything to become practically everything they ever want to, then for example, why in the hell there aren’t any (or at least not too many) high government officials who has ghetto bacround? Or are there many scientist with a ghetto backround? If not then why is it? If things for them are as good as you say they are, then how come they just dont seem to make it in life? Whats the reason? You say that government does basicly all they can (and perhaps even more) to help these people, they get much more benefits than “normal” people gets, they get more than sufficient supply of everything, -WHY- they are still poor people without education? Please, enlighten me!

You really genuinly seem to think that these people get the same change as everyone else, I mean wow, that’s really amazing.


Also, without the help of society you wouldn’t have education nor would you have any job, its that simple. There isn’t really anything there to debate in this matter, you just make yourself look foolish if you continue on insisting otherwise.



Finland

Again, what would you have governments do to solve this problem? You must have some ideas if you keep insisting that they're not doing enough.

s.pasanen
10th Aug 2011, 22:32
Again, what would you have governments do to solve this problem? You must have some ideas if you keep insisting that they're not doing enough.

Clock is way too much for me to go into those things now, I try to answer that tomorrow if its okay with you. I can say that I saw this one television program about this system that were helping ghetto children to get decent education in decent environments, boy those children were thankful about it. Il try if I will find something for you guys to read or watch, tomorrow that is. In the meantime, why wouldnt you answer to my question.

Solid_1723
10th Aug 2011, 22:40
Clock is way too much for me to go into those things now, I try to answer that tomorrow if its okay with you. I can say that I saw this one television program about this system that were helping ghetto children to get decent education in decent environments, boy those children were thankful about it. Il try if I will find something for you guys to read or watch, tomorrow that is. In the meantime, why wouldnt you answer to my question.

That'll be fine.

I think many countries have similar projects, which try to bring young persons back from a life of crime, but they couldn't possibly set up a system that extends to every single person and again, it is a fact that many many individuals would not take part in such a system anyway as they simply refuse to integrate and actively choose an illegal way of procuring money.

AlexOfSpades
10th Aug 2011, 22:49
Finland

I have only one word to say:


http://media.steampowered.com/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/28/28c8a124eb0f475b27172efc56ed085f23a28fb8_full.jpg

Neuromancer07
11th Aug 2011, 00:06
Trying to guarantee equality of outcome would require a police state, where the government not only provided the schools, but escorted the kids to them to make sure no one skived off, punished anyone who didn't pay attention in class and forced them to work extra time until they understood to the same level as everyone else, then once they'd learned, forced to take a job and forced to work at it until retirement age. This is not a world anyone should have to live in.

It's absolutely the government's job to provide equality of opportunity, and they do. It's neither their job or within their capability to create equality of outcome.

No, that's an absurd reading of the phrase, though you realise that truancy and inattentiveness in class is already punished with your tax dollars. Equality of outcome is not about enforcing absolute equity in achievement defined by a state body but ensuring maximal and equal participation in political power and an egalitarian nature to how wealth is distributed in society; usually a high-minimum wage and high taxation above certain levels. If I had more time right now I could also make a compelling argument for extending this to include participation in industrial and economic decisions but we'll leave that for now. Societies with high wealth inequalities were once considered to be monstrously immoral, contemplate the disgust which 'Banana Republics' (there's quite an interesting and revealing history behind the name and the exploitation of the United Fruit Company, but I digress) were viewed with; the idea of an elite indulging in the combined wealth of thousands in the surrounding barrio who lack basic essentials or avenues to change their lot.

Now, the interesting phenomenon as should be apparent in most developed Western nations is that even if there is assistance to the poor and their condition ameliorated, concentrations of power emerge on the other end of the spectrum with profound effects which distort society, politics and economics. It's redundant and tautological to say that the most powerful actors within a system exert greatest influence upon it. You can find this realisation in Herodotus but remaining in the modern period Adam Smith, the Marxist radical that he was (that's sarcasm for those who don't know of him), observed in Wealth of Nations that the principal architects of policy in 18th Century Britain were the merchants and manufacturers whose needs were most peculiarly attended to.

Exerting disproportionate influence in what is supposed to be a democratic system may be freedom for one individual but it diminishes it for another. This process can be demonstrated to be self-perpetuating with no elegant or internal system of self-correction. The former disgust with inequality has given way to entire corporate-owned think tanks like the Heritage Foundation or Cato Institute actually defending inequality for obvious reasons of self-interest, however myopic. The logical conclusion of this process is an oligarchy and the world as depicted in the first Deus Ex.

I subscribe to Cicero's definition of freedom; participation in power.

Also my comments on stereotyping were intended as something for all people to be mindful of, not merely yourself though the tone of some of your writing does intimate what I stated and you now qualify what you did not before. Also really? 'Their own culture', now that's just wrong.

cartridge
11th Aug 2011, 01:30
The bottom line is, this riot is a direct result of a police action, that could have 100% been avoided if not for their rationalization of law enforcement operating under fascist views. It's their mess, let them clean it up. God forbid they'll learn something about themselves in the process.

[FGS]Shadowrunner
11th Aug 2011, 01:41
Hey, you can bring in the militia, you can bring the A-Team, you can bring in Godzilla if you want...

but that isn't going to BRIDGE the gap between the two societies...

Cameron can do as Churchill did, bring in the Army with medium field artillery firing on the homes of the looters...

it STILL won't teach him anything about the problem he is dealing with...

He doesn't realize that being a heroine addict automatically entitles to you priveleges that are denied to the honest jobseeker. He's the biggest baby of all in this riot. Baroness Warzi sits at Cobra Emergency meetings, you can almost imagine it "How are we going to stop people rioting when cops pin a man down and shoot him and then ignore the family for 3 days"... "Umm well David, let's get tough on them..." - these people don't have any clue how to get this country making money and being happy again. Riots in Bristol were happening for months already, it's just shifted to the retail areas now...

it's like 28 days later, a raging angry mob looking for the next score...

EDIT: actually, the army are already here, have been before 7/7...

SRR

Urban warfare specialists, have been working for the police for a long time now...

MI5 too...

And then you have all the retired military and cops who carry out daily surveillance...

you'd be surprised how much Army is already running London...

Ashpolt
11th Aug 2011, 02:03
Says the guy who thinks that society is not to thank for his achievements in studying and in getting a job and that its not the goverments job to protect its citizens..

If I go into B&Q (a UK hardware store) and buy some bricks and mortar, which I then use to (personally) build a house, I will acknowledge that B&Q provided the material for me, but they didn't build the house. I used the materials they gave me and made something myself. Similarly, I used the materials society gave me - education - to make something - a degree - myself.


You don’t get the same benefits from your government than what the poor people get? Really? But wich one needs those benefits more, you or the poor one? I just cant belive what you are actually saying here. Yes they get more money from the government than you, so what? You are not the one growing up in place where there are drugs and unemployment (and everything else) mixed together.

You're moving on to a different point now and twisting my words to make it sound like I'm saying something I'm not. I never claimed that I needed the benefits more - obviously I don't. But that's not the point I was making. You said "the government needs to give more benefits to these people" and "these people don't get the same benefits as you do" to which I replied "they're receiving plenty already. and actually more than I am." I never made any claim about deserving it more. Don't put words in my mouth.


Seriously, can you really say that you would have absolutely without a doubt made it to the same level (or perhaps even higher because of all the benefits) if you were born in ghetto –like place?

If me, personally, with my exact personality, intelligence and willingness to work, was born in the ghetto? Yes, I can say I would've made it to the same place. But obviously your point is that if I was born in the ghetto, I wouldn't have the same personality etc, I'd be part of the "non-education" culture, but here's the thing: that's the fault of that culture, not society as a whole.


If people born in a ghetto get, as you said it, -more than sufficent- supply of everything to become practically everything they ever want to, then for example, why in the hell there aren’t any (or at least not too many) high government officials who has ghetto bacround? Or are there many scientist with a ghetto backround? If not then why is it? If things for them are as good as you say they are, then how come they just dont seem to make it in life? Whats the reason? You say that government does basicly all they can (and perhaps even more) to help these people, they get much more benefits than “normal” people gets, they get more than sufficient supply of everything, -WHY- they are still poor people without education? Please, enlighten me!

Alan Sugar was born to a poor family and ran in petty criminal gangs when he was a teenager, and is now one of the richest people in Britain. Margaret Thatcher's parents ran a small, self-started greengrocer's shop and she went on to become prime minister. (OK, a terrible PM, but that's beside the point: she found success.) They're just two examples off the top of my head, I can guarantee you there are any number of other examples but I don't happen to be an encyclopaedia of rich people's background stories. They're people who escaped poverty to make successes of themselves. Why? Because they work hard.

And you ask why do so many others not make it? Because, as I've said all along, some people just choose not to take the opportunities presented to them. Some people are lazy. Some people do make bad decisions. So we come back to the big theme of this entire discussion: people are responsible for their own actions, and trying to blame every bad decision they make on "society" is not helping anyone, least of all them.

[QUOTE=s.pasanen;1646667]You really genuinly seem to think that these people get the same change as everyone else, I mean wow, that’s really amazing.

And you seem to believe that no-one could possibly just be a bad person or make bad decisions without it being the government's fault.


Also, without the help of society you wouldn’t have education nor would you have any job, its that simple. There isn’t really anything there to debate in this matter, you just make yourself look foolish if you continue on insisting otherwise.

I never said I did it without the help of society. You're putting words in my mouth again. I said they provided the same level of "help" to me as they did to everyone else, I just chose to make something of it.

And as Solid1723 pointed out, you completely failed to respond to the question asked twice in my last post of "What aren't the government doing?" You're so sure that something's being done wrong, even though you don't know what it is, and you can't say how to fix it. That's the kind of ignorance you're accusing me of, and the kind of misdirected and ill-informed anger at "the man" that the rioters are using to justify their actions. Congratulations.


No, that's an absurd reading of the phrase, though you realise that truancy and inattentiveness in class is already punished with your tax dollars. Equality of outcome is not about enforcing absolute equity in achievement defined by a state body but ensuring maximal and equal participation in political power and an egalitarian nature to how wealth is distributed in society; usually a high-minimum wage and high taxation above certain levels. If I had more time right now I could also make a compelling argument for extending this to include participation in industrial and economic decisions but we'll leave that for now. Societies with high wealth inequalities were once considered to be monstrously immoral, contemplate the disgust which 'Banana Republics' (there's quite an interesting and revealing history behind the name and the exploitation of the United Fruit Company, but I digress) were viewed with; the idea of an elite indulging in the combined wealth of thousands in the surrounding barrio who lack basic essentials or avenues to change their lot.

Now, the interesting phenomenon as should be apparent in most developed Western nations is that even if there is assistance to the poor and their condition ameliorated, concentrations of power emerge on the other end of the spectrum with profound effects which distort society, politics and economics. It's redundant and tautological to say that the most powerful actors within a system exert greatest influence upon it. You can find this realisation in Herodotus but remaining in the modern period Adam Smith, the Marxist radical that he was (that's sarcasm for those who don't know of him), observed in Wealth of Nations that the principal architects of policy in 18th Century Britain were the merchants and manufacturers whose needs were most peculiarly attended to.

Exerting disproportionate influence in what is supposed to be a democratic system may be freedom for one individual but it diminishes it for another. This process can be demonstrated to be self-perpetuating with no elegant or internal system of self-correction. The former disgust with inequality has given way to entire corporate-owned think tanks like the Heritage Foundation or Cato Institute actually defending inequality for obvious reasons of self-interest, however myopic. The logical conclusion of this process is an oligarchy and the world as depicted in the first Deus Ex.

I subscribe to Cicero's definition of freedom; participation in power.

....Which is all an over-verbose, "aren't I clever for referencing these books I've read" way of saying "the rich are getting rich and the poor are getting poorer, and that's the problem with society"? Well, the flaw in that argument (or at least its relevance in this situation) lies in the fact that, in this instance, we're not talking about people who lack "the bare essentials", we're talking about people who have the bare essentials and more but still expect more for nothing. While what you're saying may very well be true in certain societies, it's not in the UK. Except for the very, very thinnest end of the wedge, our "poor" are granted a standard of living that to many cultures would be considered a blessing, and the people who are participating in these riots are definitely not the thinnest end of the wedge. Nor are they stealing the "bare essentials," they're stealing luxury items - booze, cigarettes, designer clothes, televisions for goodness' sake. The "wealth inequality" is here, sure, but it's because people have the freedom and opportunity to earn ludicrous amounts of money, so the fat end of the wedge is very fat, not because the poor classes are starving in the streets.


Also really? 'Their own culture', now that's just wrong.

...You want to explain why that's wrong, rather than just making a statement with nothing to back it up?

[EDIT]
The bottom line is, this riot is a direct result of a police action, that could have 100% been avoided if not for their rationalization of law enforcement operating under fascist views. It's their mess, let them clean it up. God forbid they'll learn something about themselves in the process.

...No. No, it's really, really not. The police shooting (of an armed suspect, I remind you) was the spark, but not the cause: if it hadn't have been that, it would've been something else sooner or later.

And claiming that the UK law enforcement is in any way "fascist" is utterly, utterly laughable. We have just about the softest, most lenient police force imaginable - most of our cops don't carry guns, and are trained to only use their batons in extreme situations, and even then they have to go through a whole mountain of paperwork if they do use them. Hell, it took 2 days of full on rioting for the police to be approved to use rubber bullets, and as far as I'm aware they still haven't been allowed to use water cannons. That's right: our police force can't use water against people, even in a full blown riot situation. And you call that fascist?

TrickyVein
11th Aug 2011, 02:09
Now, considering everything which has been said (by that I mean "skimming"), I do think it rather concerning that you have the numbers of people who are willing to bandwagon and commit theft, arson, even murder (there was the one guy who was shot in his car...right?) as crimes of opportunity - some values or worldview is not being communicated to a large number of young people and this is very worrisome. Say what you will about the role of government to make good for its citizens or what-have-you, the violence that we have seen is tantamount to something gone horridly awry. That's quite the generation gap.

Perhaps it seems like I'm being insensitive to there being a real problem which needs to be addressed here (I feel like I am, reading my own posts) - whether it is providing education or equal opportunity, or the lack of it - I couldn't say what (not living on the island and not being really familiar with British politicking or even the mindset which POM mentioned) - but I think you'd be a blind fool to dismiss an event such as this and not expect something similar to happen again in the future - without re-examining these issues: is the government doing enough? Should it, could it be doing more? I like to think that I'm pretty familiar with the capitalist model and the relationship between race and socioeconomic class, all those statistics you see in Harper's Index - yes, of course we want people to live healthy, privileged lives, and I hope that no one here would believe in forcibly relegating someone to a life of hardship "because that's the way it is and sucks to be you" but then again, that is capitalism. It's better for me than living in a communist dictatorship (*ahem* CHINA)

I don't know what else to say. Except that I'm still disappointed that more people thought it a good idea to impose martial law than not.

dannybates
11th Aug 2011, 02:22
I say bring in the army and outfit every soldier with AA-12's loaded with bean bag rounds.

AlexOfSpades
11th Aug 2011, 02:34
I don't know what else to say. Except that I'm still disappointed that more people thought it a good idea to impose martial law than not.

I've been studying this thread recently and loving the debate. I'm not posting because, well, Ashpolt and Romeo already said everything i wanted, so i'm just watching.

But still i didnt managed to grasp why would the martial law be a bad idea. Its obvious that the police wont hold them off. The army should fight for their own safety.

Unless the British plan to change their police officers to Brazilian style Police Force (http://www.sempretops.com/wp-content/uploads/Bope-Fotos-9.jpg) (like the BOPE Deathsquad), they better bring the soldiers and let them do justice.

PS: Is there any more badass logo for the police than this (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_x3qdyYfBq8Q/R74S0wD5gRI/AAAAAAAAAPI/U12ag6xreRE/s400/BOPE3.jpg)?

iloveyouXWORLD
11th Aug 2011, 02:48
I say bring in the army and outfit every soldier with AA-12's loaded with bean bag rounds.

Now THAT is how to end a riot!

cartridge
11th Aug 2011, 03:10
...No. No, it's really, really not. The police shooting (of an armed suspect, I remind you) was the spark, but not the cause: if it hadn't have been that, it would've been something else sooner or later.

And claiming that the UK law enforcement is in any way "fascist" is utterly, utterly laughable. We have just about the softest, most lenient police force imaginable - most of our cops don't carry guns, and are trained to only use their batons in extreme situations, and even then they have to go through a whole mountain of paperwork if they do use them. Hell, it took 2 days of full on rioting for the police to be approved to use rubber bullets, and as far as I'm aware they still haven't been allowed to use water cannons. That's right: our police force can't use water against people, even in a full blown riot situation. And you call that fascist?

I was referring to a police force that has a special unit for colored neighborhoods. The guy they shot (in the face if i remember correctly) was black, was he not?

iloveyouXWORLD
11th Aug 2011, 03:17
I was referring to a police force that has a special unit for colored neighborhoods. The guy they shot (in the face if i remember correctly) was black, was he not?

i remember when i got stopped at gatwick airport randomly. during my friendly chat with the officer she was saying how her team deals mainly with Black gangs(her words) in london. I was shocked how she just outright said that.

Neuromancer07
11th Aug 2011, 03:34
....Which is all an over-verbose, "aren't I clever for referencing these books I've read" way of saying "the rich are getting rich and the poor are getting poorer, and that's the problem with society"? Well, the flaw in that argument (or at least its relevance in this situation) lies in the fact that, in this instance, we're not talking about people who lack "the bare essentials", we're talking about people who have the bare essentials and more but still expect more for nothing. While what you're saying may very well be true in certain societies, it's not in the UK. Except for the very, very thinnest end of the wedge, our "poor" are granted a standard of living that to many cultures would be considered a blessing, and the people who are participating in these riots are definitely not the thinnest end of the wedge. Nor are they stealing the "bare essentials," they're stealing luxury items - booze, cigarettes, designer clothes, televisions for goodness' sake. The "wealth inequality" is here, sure, but it's because people have the freedom and opportunity to earn ludicrous amounts of money, so the fat end of the wedge is very fat, not because the poor classes are starving in the streets.

Well if you had read carefully, you'd see my post was one defending equality of outcome, a tangent from the present situation which I did not remark upon. I apologise for providing the requisite evidence for my assertion, I shall remember that you have a distaste for only games being dumbed-down. I even briefly assented to a less crude version of your premise that the poor in welfare states aren't really poor in the sentence; 'even if there is assistance to the poor and their condition ameliorated, concentrations of power emerge'. So why you repeat it or fail to see the point is due to your own misunderstanding.


...You want to explain why that's wrong, rather than just making a statement with nothing to back it up?

Well I would if your culture of milquetoast bourgeois living didn't ingrain some reflexively passive aggressive class-consciousness I'd answer you statement. I mean to suggest "their culture" is one of mindless self-hate in which they're willing participants is entirely inoffensive and free from any prejudice or gross generalisation. I mean for a moment I also thought that your comment was like if one 'just made a statement with nothing to back it up with'.

Just to clarify as I seemingly must, the first part of the last paragraph is indeed a mocking reversal and not a serious endorsement of the pop sociology employed here.

Just to inform you in your other replies; an independent examination of the bullet lodged in one of the police officer's radios turned out to be a jacketed round from an MP5. Source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516). Also you say 'armed suspect' as if that in anyway justifies that he was murdered. He is a suspect, therefore innocent as you or I till proven guilty and if he was truly such a danger why did the police then decide -in an act of peerless and short-sighted stupidity- to fire into one of their own radios?

TrickyVein
11th Aug 2011, 03:49
i remember when i got stopped at gatwick airport randomly. during my friendly chat with the officer she was saying how her team deals mainly with Black gangs(her words) in london. I was shocked how she just outright said that.

OK.

Why do you find that shocking?

It's probably true that they are black gangs. When was the last time you heard of a gang that didn't discriminate amongst its members?

ApertureRat
11th Aug 2011, 05:31
Mandatory sterilisation for all convicted. (I think its around 800 so far ) The last thing the world needs are these TW@'s reproducing.
...and, over time, you reduce the chances of this ever happening again.
Government needs to Issue a warning across all social media news and print, " Clear off the streets or catch a bullet in the face". It'll only take a few death's but they'll eventually get the point. And hey, its not like you would have lost anyone terribly important, you're not gonna lose any doctors or astronauts. A little bit of hardcore lawkeeping will go a very long way, I promise you.
As long as they provide a clear and concise warning, there will be no-one to blame except the criminals.
Simple. Try rioting in Russia China or Brazil, see how long you live.

Reply from out of touch bleeding heart liberal in 3, 2, 1 and......

JCpies
11th Aug 2011, 07:13
I think more people would riot if they went about killing people... It's best just to intimidate them.

ApertureRat
11th Aug 2011, 07:17
I think more people would riot if they went about killing people... It's best just to intimidate them.

fine, just aim for the knee's then.
the problem is that the only punishment is a slap on the wrist. there really is no incentive not to riot. The promise of forever walking with a limp might change that.

Brockxz
11th Aug 2011, 07:26
a little bit more funny look at all those demolitions with a help of photoshop http://trinixy.ru/60131-fotozhaby-s-uchastiem-londonskix-myatezhnikov-46.html

ApertureRat
11th Aug 2011, 07:39
LMAO! the pic of the guy with the miniature horse is brilliant.

Gemuesepizza
11th Aug 2011, 08:15
Mandatory sterilisation for all convicted. (I think its around 800 so far ) The last thing the world needs are these TW@'s reproducing.
...and, over time, you reduce the chances of this ever happening again.
Government needs to Issue a warning across all social media news and print, " Clear off the streets or catch a bullet in the face". It'll only take a few death's but they'll eventually get the point. And hey, its not like you would have lost anyone terribly important, you're not gonna lose any doctors or astronauts. A little bit of hardcore lawkeeping will go a very long way, I promise you.
As long as they provide a clear and concise warning, there will be no-one to blame except the criminals.
Simple. Try rioting in Russia China or Brazil, see how long you live.

Reply from out of touch bleeding heart liberal in 3, 2, 1 and......

What is wrong with you, you sick psycho...? Spare us with your insane nazi methods. Oh and I have reported you, hopefully you get banned.

It's funny how people don't realise what's the cause of the riots. There are massive social tensions in great britain, which are a result of the failed social and education politics of the goverment. The people have no future, no hope... indeed it's not a political movement, but it is caused by politics. Of course it is necessary that the police acts here, but that's only a short term solution. This will not solve the problem. And if people like Cameron don't look at the true reasons for the riots they will continue, and they will be more intense. Maybe that's exactly what Cameron wants, so he can reduce civil rights and get more votes from the more simple minded people who just want simple solutions and a strong leader. If you want an outlook for the future, look to south america where there are gated communities and massive criminality. Do people really want such a society? Or do they want a society where people live peacefully side by side and have chances and a good life?

simonm
11th Aug 2011, 08:30
The Brits don't know how good they have it. Innocents get shot and killed every day in America and slightly less often in Australia but still way more than Britain. Sadly people just don't care here that police can shoot to kill here and suffer no recriminations. I'm somewhat glad that there is such a response in Britain but not so sure that it is the right response.

Spyhopping
11th Aug 2011, 08:34
It's funny how people don't realise what's the cause of the riots. There are massive social tensions in great britain, which are a result of the failed social and education politics of the goverment. The people have no future, no hope...

Seriously, no. Relatively speaking, we have it good here. People who live in this country have massive opportunity, and they very often fail to see it. A lot of social supports are deteriorating at the moment, but there's no reason for us to collectively feel sorry for ourselves.

There is no well reasoned purpose for these riots other than a collection of criminally minded people being easily led.

Gemuesepizza
11th Aug 2011, 08:39
You obviously don't know what you are talking about, because you have never been poor. If you have no future, no chances, then it's not a long way to criminality. And you missunderstand me: I don't try to justify these actions, but I try to explain it. That's a difference.

Spyhopping
11th Aug 2011, 09:14
I think I came across a little pushy there, but it's not the way I am. All it is, is that I believe we are lucky in this country, and are given a good chance at a future. Also, I'll choose not to apply my personal situation as leverage into this discussion, because it is irrelevant. As I said, relatively speaking, we have it good here. Have a look around the rest of the world and compare.

Brockxz
11th Aug 2011, 09:22
You obviously don't know what you are talking about, because you have never been poor. If you have no future, no chances, then it's not a long way to criminality. And you missunderstand me: I don't try to justify these actions, but I try to explain it. That's a difference.

as i said previously if that's how look poor people in UK, i don 't know how to call 70% people in my country. That's not even close to poor so stop calling them poor. Even in my country those 70% won 't be poor compare to some Asian or African region. They don't know how lucky they are living there and that's their stupidity and blindness to not see and use opportunities UK gives them.

and here something more for fun - Riots now hitting San Francisco:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSQ09f2Ro14

ApertureRat
11th Aug 2011, 10:36
Agreed Brock, on all points.


What is wrong with you, you sick psycho...? Spare us with your insane nazi methods. Oh and I have reported you, hopefully you get banned.


yeah because if I was unhappy with the current political party, I would go and immediately steal TV's and and burn down family business'.
You sir, are a moron.
why have you reported me? do you go and have a cry on mummy's shoulder when someone says something you dont agree with?...aww diddums , there there. shall I heat you up some milk? shall I fetch your blanky?

spare us your drivel kid, Its NOTHING to do with politics. Most of them couldn't spell the word. Its a bunch of low-life opportunistic scum that we'd be much better without.
wait till they rock up at your house or business , bash you and your family, and destroy your livelihood.
I bet your tune will soon change.

keep your bleeding heart to yourself, your ideals are the reason this is ALLOWED to happen.
ooooh I've been reported, fine I hate pizza, I'm gonna report you and I hope you get banned you cheese-laden thick crusted fool.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th Aug 2011, 10:58
Shame discussion ended up getting 'personal', threads relating to religion or politics rarely stay on topic.
Closed.

s.pasanen
11th Aug 2011, 20:41
This thread was created in continuation for the conversation that took place in “Martial law in London” –thread before it was closed. Heres the link to that:http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=119194 I would like to have a civil conversation about this issue so if you have racist opinions then please keep them to yourself, because I don’t want another lockdown. And even though we don’t have a specific term (like the word racist) for a person who calls people of different class with names, for example calling all (or even most) poor people as stupid and/or lazy is just not ok. Its not right to call people with names and as a side note: Money does not make you wise.

Ok lets begin, heres the question: It is clear that education plays a key role in how people succeeds in society, but does the environment effect childrens attitudes on learning? If so, then are we doing enough as a society to provide this good environment for the children that live in so called “bad neighbourhoods”? In option number three with "they" I mean children that are born in bad neighbourhood

Here is something to watch before you make your mind. Yes I know its titled “Race and intelligence” but belive me it really relates to this topic as well. This program is about that some scientists have openly suggested that race has something to do with persons IQ, but the program might as well be that somebody states that for example people that are born in poor families would be less intelligent because they don’t usually do well in school. This program suggests that it is the environment wich determines childrens attitude towards education, not so much the genetic heritage and it certainly isn’t determined by race.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xb9i7a_race-and-intelligence-1-7_school


@Ashpolt Because the earlier thread was locked down I weren’t able to answer to you, but id like to answer to you now. I have directly copied your text from that previous threat and I haven’t edited it in any way.

Ashpolt: "If me, personally, with my exact personality, intelligence and willingness to work, was born in the ghetto? Yes, I can say I would've made it to the same place. But obviously your point is that if I was born in the ghetto, I wouldn't have the same personality etc, I'd be part of the "non-education" culture, but here's the thing: that's the fault of that culture, not society as a whole."

Yes it is the “cultures” fault but you must understand that culture belongs in to the society, it is part of the society. So it really is the societys responsibility to replace that “bad culture” with a better one, mostly because the society is pretty much the only one that can help these children in this situation. Also, the thing is that the culture is not going to change just by giving these people houses, condoms, clean needles and money. You seem to think this is, as you said it, -sufficent- way to actually change this “culture” but it really isn’t. I mean that of course it is good that they get houses, condoms, clean needles and money, since that’s very human, but it just does so little to actually change that environment for a better one.

So the critical difference between me and you is that you belive that we are already doing our best to help children who are born in poor and/or otherwise bad environment to get the same change for good education as all the other gets. In the film that I linked, you can see that there are professors, teachers and other highly educated people who strongly disagree with your view, just saying.

Also, it isn’t very fruitful to talk about societys responsibilities with you since you seem to belive that for example society is not to thank for your degree and your job, wich frankly is very ignorant to say because without society you wouldn’t have neither of those.

Ashpolt: "If I go into B&Q (a UK hardware store) and buy some bricks and mortar, which I then use to (personally) build a house, I will acknowledge that B&Q provided the material for me, but they didn't build the house. I used the materials they gave me and made something myself. Similarly, I used the materials society gave me - education - to make something - a degree - myself."

If you aren’t a builder who builds houses for living then I really doubt that you could just go to a hardware store to buy some stuff and then build a house, even if you worked very, VERY hard. Well, without any special building skills you might still come up with some sort shack so ill give you that, but I wouldn’t call it a “house”. If you haven’t got any experience about building houses then, (for your own and also for your familys safety) I would suggest you to go hire a professional = you need the help of your society. You as everyone else needs the help of society to get stuff, in exchange for money of course. For example; if you want a new GPU for your computer then you cant just build it yourself, you need to buy it from the company that makes them. If you want a car you cant just build it, you must buy it from the company that makes them. You have to thank society for allowing you to have education, job, cars, computers, (proper) houses etc etc.. pretty much anything you could imagine. Saying that society is not to thank for all these things is kind of ignorant, because without the help of society you wouldn’t even have that hardware store where you could buy those materials to build your vey own shack. If you wouldnt have society offering you all these things, you wouldnt have anything other than what you can build yourself with your own bare hands.