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Natla
10th Jun 2011, 18:14
I apologise for this but my fickle attention was attracted by another thread from another place;


How would your opinion of Crystal Dynamics' upcoming survival/adventure game change if they had promoted it as a brand new IP?

Lots of folks here don't see anything Lara about this new protagonist or anything 'tomb raider' about this Tomb Raider. If the game was no longer under the burden of your expectations for what a TR game should be, how would you look at it? Would this brand new game (let's say it'd just be called A Survivor is Born in this alterverse) and new character (hmm... Aisling Shaw?) interest you?

Try to imagine the trailer and gameplay video were never promoted under the names "Tomb Raider" and "Lara Croft" - what would you think of this upcoming game?

I think the poster's point if that "they" are keeping the four words "Lara Croft Tomb Raider" merely for marketing purposes but that the new game is totally new and nothing to do with Tomb Raider (?) Not sure what I think personally - I think I need more information.

Elliot Kane
10th Jun 2011, 18:44
Way I figure it - until we see the game, there's no way to know.

I tend to save my complaints until I have serious ammunition! :D

Gemma_Darkmoon_
10th Jun 2011, 18:57
It always the big danger with reboots that the original character is lost along the way and all the stuff CD released so far indicates that it could happen here. Not sure yet. Lara is my fav video game character of all time and would be so SO gutted if they end up turning her into somebody else that is nothing like Lara.

Rhanyan
10th Jun 2011, 19:25
Well, I suppose I could play this adventure regardless of the character's name or title of the game.

The concept of a young woman shipwrecked on this strange island, trying to survive against much adversity by using her wits, and the scraps she finds on the island is enough to gain my interest.

You can call her Peggy Sue, or Mary Lou, I don't care. And you can call it Tomb Raider, or Survivor, or Eye of the Tiger, I would still play it.

The story and the image of this character is what has captured my imagination, regardless of game title or character name.

Of course, I am also quite willing to play it as Tomb Raider, with a character called Lara Croft, as well, and I hope this is just the start of a new set of games telling this woman's story.

Donna, Gloria, Lola, Michelle, is that you? Lol.

Natla
10th Jun 2011, 19:34
I'm pretty sure I'd ignore it unless it had Tomb Raider or Lara Croft in the title ... :whistle:

IvanaKC
10th Jun 2011, 22:14
I'm pretty sure I'd ignore it unless it had Tomb Raider or Lara Croft in the title ... :whistle:

Me too. :lol:

Well, I think the best thing would be (don't kill me now) to just leave Tomb Raider alone for a while. They should rename this new game, focus on it and sell it. That would be fine because that way they could make money and revive Tomb Raider without any reboots. I have a feeling they are rebooting just to make money, not to please fans...

dark7angel
10th Jun 2011, 22:32
Crystal is trying to make Tomb Raider and Lara's character relevant again! The franchise was loosing its appeal and even old fans were starting to loose interest! Tomb Raider NEEDED to change!!!

Personally, I find the general direction of this reboot very appealing and the truth is most of the gaming community has its eyes on this new Tomb Raider!

Could this game work without the Tomb Raider/Lara Croft name? Yeah, I think so! At least to me, it looks good so far! BUT the fact that this is actually about Lara makes it even more interesting!

Silvermoth
10th Jun 2011, 22:39
I have no idea how people cannot see how this relates to the other Tomb Raider games or why they are so gunshy about change.

This is how Lara becomes Lara. It's not all new. It's an origin. As for the different events well, I love the X-men and there have been different interpretations of that, such as the Age of Apocalpse, which have actually enhanced the mythos.

WinterSoldierLTE
10th Jun 2011, 22:51
I think it just absolutely kills some people that the new TR is getting shedloads of good publicity and reviews thus far, and that some TR fans are actually looking forward to it. Which is a shame. Especially if it does end up being the one to throw TR back into the spotlight. Nobody has to buy it if it doesn't appeal to them. Not buying won't make you not a fan of TR if you dig the older games. Yeah some people might think that, but eff 'em. You know which TR games you like, and there are plenty of them out to re-play.
Also interesting how threads from TRForrums end up here as well. Can't help but wonder if someone from over there who's here as well is just trying to get people's aggravation into gear. Shame.

Natla
10th Jun 2011, 23:10
I think it just absolutely kills some people that the new TR is getting shedloads of good publicity and reviews thus far, and that some TR fans are actually looking forward to it. Which is a shame. Especially if it does end up being the one to throw TR back into the spotlight. Nobody has to buy it if it doesn't appeal to them. Not buying won't make you not a fan of TR if you dig the older games. Yeah some people might think that, but eff 'em. You know which TR games you like, and there are plenty of them out to re-play.
Also interesting how threads from TRForrums end up here as well. Can't help but wonder if someone from over there who's here as well is just trying to get people's aggravation into gear. Shame.

I'm not trying to aggravate anybody! I just thought these things are interesting to discuss in a discussion forum. I don't see anybody getting aggravated here. :confused:

Andy64
11th Jun 2011, 01:42
The ideas behind the game are fantastic (even if so based on Lost) and if it wasn't supposed a TR game then I would be really looking forward to it. I can see why it got attention for it's theme. I just don't want to see some completely different imposter character pretend to be Lara and just ride off the value of Lara's name. CD seems to have had some other character in mind or just the drama series Lost and tried to superimpose Lara into that vision. Maybe the thoughts went like 'Lost is awesome. Kate is so cool. She looks a little like Lara. I know let's turn Lara into Kate and put her on an island like the one for Lost'. I would really support CD if they got their own brand new character and had her however they wanted.

You can knock the top 2 floors your standout 3-floor house to match all the bungalows around it if bungalows are in fashion. Even start a bonfire of the matterials to get tons of attention. Five years later you look back and think I miss the old house. By then finding Lara Croft anywhere in the girl you have left is so hard to do. CD could still come through by geting the script to sound unmistakeably Lara. After their choices on weaponary, outfits, voice actress, breast size went against everything Lara I am not sure. I will still buy the game and give em a shot. Finally thanks to Natla for bringing up the arguement. Is nice to let CD and other forum members know our concerns about their reboot and the scale of changes to Lara.

IvanaKC
11th Jun 2011, 15:16
The ideas behind the game are fantastic (even if so based on Lost) and if it wasn't supposed a TR game then I would be really looking forward to it. I can see why it got attention for it's theme. I just don't want to see some completely different imposter character pretend to be Lara and just ride off the value of Lara's name. CD seems to have had some other character in mind or just the drama series Lost and tried to superimpose Lara into that vision. Maybe the thoughts went like 'Lost is awesome. Kate is so cool. She looks a little like Lara. I know let's turn Lara into Kate and put her on an island like the one for Lost'. I would really support CD if they got their own brand new character and had her however they wanted.




Yup, you are my hero! I won't say anything because you're totally right. But you have to admit that if the title of this game isn't Tomb Raider, it wouldn't be so popular and people wouldn't be so interested in playing it. The brand is the brand...

Elliot Kane
11th Jun 2011, 17:18
Agreeing with Ivana, here. If this game wasn't a Tomb Raider, I'm not sure it would have hit my radar.

'Lara Croft' immediately gains my attention. 'Really short survival horror' - not so much...

LARALOVERnr1
11th Jun 2011, 17:30
Yup, you are my hero! I won't say anything because you're totally right. But you have to admit that if the title of this game isn't Tomb Raider, it wouldn't be so popular and people wouldn't be so interested in playing it. The brand is the brand...

I have to disagree with you on that one. CD did an awesome job for the trailer and the demo, so all the attention and positive comments aren't there just because it's a reboot of TR.

JCpies
11th Jun 2011, 17:30
At least it's not as bad as Brothers in Arms 'Furious Four'.

Sam_kain
11th Jun 2011, 19:07
Well, I suppose I could play this adventure regardless of the character's name or title of the game.

The concept of a young woman shipwrecked on this strange island, trying to survive against much adversity by using her wits, and the scraps she finds on the island is enough to gain my interest.

You can call her Peggy Sue, or Mary Lou, I don't care. And you can call it Tomb Raider, or Survivor, or Eye of the Tiger, I would still play it.

The story and the image of this character is what has captured my imagination, regardless of game title or character name.

Of course, I am also quite willing to play it as Tomb Raider, with a character called Lara Croft, as well, and I hope this is just the start of a new set of games telling this woman's story.

Donna, Gloria, Lola, Michelle, is that you? Lol.

I agree with Rhanyan, even if it wasn't Tomb Raider i will absolutely be in love with the character and what the developers are offering, simply because it looks epic non the less

Beside it's all the fault of the market, new IPs don't get enough attention and don't sell well, look at Enslaved for example, so why take the risk ?!, especially that you are having a dieing long time franchise TR and the new game settings could work with an origin story for TR and reboot the series to a better look and a whole new level, it is better than making another action adventure game that may fail in terms of sales yet satsify the fans, after all big companies needs money, and if that would have to happen it would be the end to TR, check Legacy Of Kain we are praying for a new game, yet Edios isn't giving us one :(, so be glad you got a better looking TR game, with something new to offer to the market

I support the developers, and i love the new TR game non the less, i will support it and buy once it is released, that is it for me :)

Raider126
12th Jun 2011, 05:40
I think I would be interested in it, but I wouldn't be as interested in it if it wasn't Tomb Raider. I really like psychological horror games and survival games, so I would think that a psychological survival game (is that even a genre or is Crystal creating a new one) would appeal to me.

I think if Crystal started this as a new IP, there would certainly be a few issues that they would face. New series tend to be hard because even though they have a target audience, they might not necessarily be fans. One of my favourite games called Alan Wake which is a psychological horror game, was highly anticipated because it was new and interesting, the sales within the first two weeks were a lot lower then predicted and only 15,000 copies were sold apparently. I think that Crystal didn't really to create a new IP anyway but they wanted to see how far they could take the series, Lara Croft has such a huge fanbase and there's lot of places that the character has yet to discover.

Since the game hasn't been released, I'm judging from previews that we've had so far, but I think it will be Tomb Raiderish. But I think that it's going to be later on (not the first few levels) where we see our iconic Lara appear.

Charlie.T.Raider
24th Jun 2011, 00:26
Boot or reboot? If it isn't really TR or Lara then I think I would be sticking the boot into CD over it. I just wouldn't be a happy bunny. Hoping for it only to be partial reboot.

Greenas
24th Jun 2011, 11:22
Crystal is trying to make Tomb Raider and Lara's character relevant again! The franchise was loosing its appeal and even old fans were starting to loose interest! Tomb Raider NEEDED to change!!!

Personally, I find the general direction of this reboot very appealing and the truth is most of the gaming community has its eyes on this new Tomb Raider!

Could this game work without the Tomb Raider/Lara Croft name? Yeah, I think so! At least to me, it looks good so far! BUT the fact that this is actually about Lara makes it even more interesting!

I agree.

If square enix could put enough marketing and hype behind the same game with a different name, it would surely catch on.

Greenas
24th Jun 2011, 11:25
Yup, you are my hero! I won't say anything because you're totally right. But you have to admit that if the title of this game isn't Tomb Raider, it wouldn't be so popular and people wouldn't be so interested in playing it. The brand is the brand...

It's just a name. What really matters is the actual game, not a few fickle and harmless letters that are put on the front cover.

As they say, don't judge a book by its cover.

Elliot Kane
24th Jun 2011, 15:21
It's a name with history, though. Even people who wouldn't dream of picking up any kind of computer or console game know who Lara Croft is. Just by putting the Tomb Raider logo on something, you will gain attention that you would not get with an unknown character.

Turning that instant attention into interest is the trick, and so far, so good, I'd say. Then CD will have to deliver, but there's no way of knowing whether they've managed that until we have the game in our hands...

Greenas
24th Jun 2011, 21:32
If it helps their sales and marketing, good for them. Would probably prompt a sequel, but history isn't the important factor in the new Tomb Raider. If anything, it's the lack of it.

Their decision to throw everything away and begin creating a believable and relevant character is what is important, and how they portray this new person in a tough environment, that too.

What really matters is the data on the disc. The title pales in importance when compared to that.

Error96_
25th Jun 2011, 01:33
It's just a name. What really matters is the actual game, not a few fickle and harmless letters that are put on the front cover

Those letters represent one video game's greatest series and one of it's most iconic heroes. It's over 10 years of heritage. I really love Lara and for me she means so much more than just a name. The TR name is why I will buy this game.


Their decision to throw everything away and begin creating a believable and relevant character is what is important, and how they portray this new person in a tough environment, that too.

What really matters is the data on the disc. The title pales in importance when compared to that.

Their decision to throw everything away and begin creating what CD see as a believable and relevant character is what is...... a dreadful silly decision :mad2::mad2::mad2:. Compromising everything about her is hardy joyous. CD had a great character to work with before this.

If Lara isn't properly going to be Lara 90% I won't be able to like the whole game. CD chose to call the game after the original. They put themselves up for the responsibility of making an actual TR game not everything but that. I want to see CD smudge/rewrite Lara's image and completely alter her looks/personality as much I want to hit myself over the head - which is not at all!!. With any other character I would probably not care. Is so sad that liking who Lara is makes me against this game but thus far I believe it may. Much as I criticize CD here I want them to put lots of Lara in and really then get the game right. Discounting the screw up on Lara the rest of the game and graphics look spot on so far.

Elliot Kane
25th Jun 2011, 08:43
Greenas,

The data on the disk may be the most wonderful thing ever, but that doesn't matter if nobody plays it. There have been some terrific games that went almost completely under the radar and some dreadful games that sold amazingly purely on their name.

History is important to the new Tomb Raider not because it makes the actual game good or bad, but because there can't be a single gamer alive who does not know who Lara Croft is. You cannot buy that kind of name recognition for a new release.

'Sonya Blake is shipwrecked on a mysterious cursed island and must survive until she can break the curse and escape' might or might not catch the world's attention. Substitute 'Lara Croft' for 'Sonya Blake' and suddenly everyone notices.

Fans immediately want the game. Lapsed fans are curious and will look. NON-fans will at least look because they know the name, as they would with any big franchise. And best of all, the gamer press will want all the details soonest.

Lara has been getting huge press attention, lately. Cover stories, long articles, interviews, the works. All stuff that just would not happen without that history.

(For the curious, 'Sonya Blake' is a name I made up on the spur of the moment to illustrate my point. Don't bother Googling her! :D)

dark7angel
25th Jun 2011, 09:24
Greenas,

The data on the disk may be the most wonderful thing ever, but that doesn't matter if nobody plays it. There have been some terrific games that went almost completely under the radar and some dreadful games that sold amazingly purely on their name.

History is important to the new Tomb Raider not because it makes the actual game good or bad, but because there can't be a single gamer alive who does not know who Lara Croft is. You cannot buy that kind of name recognition for a new release.

'Sonya Blake is shipwrecked on a mysterious cursed island and must survive until she can break the curse and escape' might or might not catch the world's attention. Substitute 'Lara Croft' for 'Sonya Blake' and suddenly everyone notices.

Fans immediately want the game. Lapsed fans are curious and will look. NON-fans will at least look because they know the name, as they would with any big franchise. And best of all, the gamer press will want all the details soonest.

Lara has been getting huge press attention, lately. Cover stories, long articles, interviews, the works. All stuff that just would not happen without that history.

(For the curious, 'Sonya Blake' is a name I made up on the spur of the moment to illustrate my point. Don't bother Googling her! :D)

I agree, the name is important, but if CD had continued with the character as she was in Underworld, the game wouldn't have half the attention it's getting now!!!! Mostly, only fans would care, but with this reboot most of the gaming community is paying attention!!!!

So yeah, the name is important, but the name alone is not enough!

Elliot Kane
25th Jun 2011, 09:42
dark7angel,

Agreed on that. The game is going to have to match (Or exceed) the hype if it's to build the audience for future games that CD are clearly after.

Gaining attention is one thing; being worthy of that attention is quite another.

Greenas
28th Jun 2011, 20:43
There have been some terrific games that went almost completely under the radar and some dreadful games that sold amazingly purely on their name.

History is important to the new Tomb Raider not because it makes the actual game good or bad, but because there can't be a single gamer alive who does not know who Lara Croft is. You cannot buy that kind of name recognition for a new release.

Fans immediately want the game. Lapsed fans are curious and will look. NON-fans will at least look because they know the name, as they would with any big franchise. And best of all, the gamer press will want all the details soonest.

Lara has been getting huge press attention, lately. Cover stories, long articles, interviews, the works. All stuff that just would not happen without that history.

True, a new series like this wouldn't be nearly as well noticed if it didn't have the words "TOMB RAIDER" printed on the front cover. A dramatic image combined with that title makes all the difference to sales (which is probably all

Square Enix cares about), but to me, as a Lara Croft fan, Lara Croft is what matters to me, not materialistic marketing.
Obviously that does not apply to the vast majority of what they would consider as their potential market, but I'm not talking statistically here, I'm talking emotionally, which is a very subjective viewpoint, but it's mine nevertheless.

But marketing and sales work statistically, not emotionally, so obviously what I think about the franchise doesn't have any affect on what their advertising is like. I wouldn't want it to either, because if the new Tomb Raider doesn't sell well, there likely won't even be a sequel...


I really love Lara and for me she means so much more than just a name.

Their decision to throw everything away and begin creating what CD see as a believable and relevant character is what is...... a dreadful silly decision :mad2::mad2::mad2:. Compromising everything about her is hardy joyous. CD had a great character to work with before this.

If Lara isn't properly going to be Lara 90% I won't be able to like the whole game. CD chose to call the game after the original. They put themselves up for the responsibility of making an actual TR game not everything but that. I want to see CD smudge/rewrite Lara's image and completely alter her looks/personality as much I want to hit myself over the head - which is not at all!!. With any other character I would probably not care. Is so sad that liking who Lara is makes me against this game but thus far I believe it may. Much as I criticize CD here I want them to put lots of Lara in and really then get the game right. Discounting the screw up on Lara the rest of the game and graphics look spot on so far.

Exactly, she means so much more than a title, her character is what is most important.

She may seem like a screw up to you, but to the vast majority of people out there, this is one of the best things to happen to Lara croft in ages. They did have a great character, but now I think they have an even better one.

We don't have the right to decide who Lara is, we have the right to say who she is in out opinions, but the people who really decide who or what kind of a person Lara is are the developers and publishers. They want to create a person, not a British Barbie doll (granted that's an exaggeration), and how some people still want to have a chauvinistic sex symbol over a realistic, emotional (but still strong) human that does justice to the potential of Lara Croft's character is completely beyond me.

So if CD decides to create a Tomb Raider game based on what they perceive to be a viable foundation, they are well within their right to do so. So far, their new idea for Tomb Raider has been very well received by the people who actually want to see justice done to Lara Croft's potential.

Error96_
28th Jun 2011, 22:24
We don't have the right to decide who Lara is, we have the right to say who she is in out opinions, but the people who really decide who or what kind of a person Lara is are the developers and publishers.

The character is already pre-established over many years and games so we do know who she is. I think we definately have the right to criticise CD if they heavily break with Lara's continuity. Look at all the Lara models and it's clear as night and day which one is the anomaly (even if you factor in age difference).

Sorry Greenas but we clearly are on opposite sides of the TR fan spectrum. I am a TR traditionalist so sadly I won't see eye to eye with you on this. It does not mean that I don't think you are arguing your points well.


some people still want to have a chauvinistic sex symbol over a realistic, emotional (but still strong) human that does justice to the potential of Lara Croft's character is completely beyond me.

Chauvinistic sex symbol is a bit of a blunt assessment but sex appeal is a vital to Lara croft expressed through her curvy body, the way she dresses and her edgy attitude/confidence. It's so much of her whole concept, her image and identity. Not to say sex-apperal is everything but rip it out completely and you don't have Lara.

Realism is good to an extent but Lara is no ordinary girl even at 21. I don't want to play as an ordinary girl anyways... I want to play as Lara. In the same sence I don't want Sonic to be a realistic hedgehog. Think more embelished reality. I know the justification would be she hasn't become Lara yet but I get the feeling that CD are shifting in a far more long term way than one game. I want to see a lara who is for the want of a beter expression 'totally kick-ass'. Leave the emotional stuff at the door like she did before. If CD take her more emotional then judging by the TRU incredible sulk then the results won't be good.

With both sexuality and Lara's strength (personality and physically). CD have to stop denying these aspects are a part of LC is and start using them correctly again.


Their new idea for Tomb Raider has been very well received by the people who actually want to see justice done to Lara Croft's potential.

I want to see justice done to Lara Croft's potential again. Morphing her into somebody else who isn't Lara don't fit that bill even if the new girl would be better. They should be using what they have. The fact that they have come up with bold new idea's on game concepts (something which TRU so much didn't do) is more why TR is the spotlight.

d1n0_xD
28th Jun 2011, 22:40
Chauvinistic sex symbol is a bit of a blunt assessment but sex appeal is a vital to Lara croft expressed through her curvy body, the way she dresses and her edgy attitude/confidence. It's so much of her whole concept, her image and identity. Not to say sex-apperal is everything but rip it out completely and you don't have Lara.

Realism is good to an extent but Lara is no ordinary girl even at 21. I don't want to play as an ordinary girl anyways... I want to play as Lara. In the same sence I don't want Sonic to be a realistic hedgehog. Think more embelished reality. I know the justification would be she hasn't become Lara yet but I get the feeling that CD are shifting in a far more long term way than one game. I want to see a lara who is for the want of a beter expression 'totally kick-ass'. Leave the emotional stuff at the door like she did before. If CD take her more emotional then judging by the TRU incredible sulk then the results won't be good.

With both sexuality and Lara's strength (personality and physically). CD have to stop denying these aspects are a part of LC is and start using them correctly again.




I think Lara will get to there, mate, don't worry ^^ I understand your fear over CD shifting in a far more long term way than one game, but still, they're not idiots... I'm pretty sure, halfway through this new game, we will slowly start to recognize the new Lara, and more and more as we progress through the game ^^

Edit: Nicely said about the sex-appeal, completely agreeing with you, Lara is hot and many things that define sex-appeal, there's no doubt about that, and that shouldn't be taboo, that is part of Lara, and she will definitely NOT go over the edge ^^

Greenas
28th Jun 2011, 22:55
The character is already pre-established over many years and games so we do know who she is. I think we definately have the right to criticise CD if they heavily break with Lara's continuity.

Sorry Greenas but we clearly are on opposite sides of the TR fan spectrum. I am a TR traditionalist so sadly I won't see eye to eye with you on this. It does not mean that I don't think you are arguing your points well.

You see, Lara's continuity was exactly the problem. She didn't change, we didn't see anything substantial change about her character. Fans and critics alike lost faith in her because her initial appeal was becoming much less appealing than it used to be. In an age where women are becoming much more empowered to be in control and not have to fit a sexy stereotype to be given opportunities, Lara began to lose her shine.

And thank you, you also argue your points well :D


Chauvinistic sex symbol is a bit of a blunt assessment but sex appeal is a vital to Lara croft expressed through her curvy body, the way she dresses and her edgy attitude/confidence. It's so much of her whole concept, her image and identity. Not to say sex-apperal is everything but rip it out completely and you don't have Lara.

Sure, they can make Lara beautiful, I'm not saying that she must be full of dirt, blood and grime for all the future instalments :eek:, but in the previous instalments, her sex appeal and figure were exaggerated WAY to much. They only stood to emphasise why Lara needed change.

She's still beautiful, just not unrealistically so.


If CD take her more emotional then judging by the TRU incredible sulk then the results won't be good.

With both sexuality and Lara's strength (personality and physically). CD have to stop denying these aspects are a part of LC is and start using them correctly again.

I want to see justice done to Lara Croft's potential again. Morphing her into somebody else who isn't Lara don't fit that bill even if the new girl would be better. They should be using what they have. The fact that they have come up with bold new idea's on game concepts (something which TRU so much didn't do) is more why TR is the spotlight.

Tomb Raider Underworld wasn't really an attempt to create an emotional Lara, as you should be able to see by playing the game, but instead it was an attempt to create a darker game. The events surrounding Lara became more serious, but she sure didn't become more emotional. :eek:

They're morphing her into somebody you don't consider to be Lara Croft, but that reasoning isn't supported by what seems to be the majority of gamers or even people who know her as a household figure.

I may not be a TR traditionalist, but I an avid Lara Croft fan, and I have maintain loyalty towards what is best for her character.

Gemma_Darkmoon_
29th Jun 2011, 02:11
Chauvinistic sex symbol is a bit of a blunt assessment but sex appeal is a vital to Lara croft expressed through her curvy body, the way she dresses and her edgy attitude/confidence. It's so much of her whole concept, her image and identity. Not to say sex-apperal is everything but rip it out completely and you don't have Lara.


Lara is hot and many things that define sex-appeal, there's no doubt about that, and that shouldn't be taboo, that is part of Lara, and she will definitely NOT go over the edge ^^

I agree completely with both of you. Lara should remain sexy in the various forms Error mentioned and I don't think Lara being sexy should become taboo at all. Lara is an attractive girl and whilst it should be over-played, It shouldn't be under-played either. Care must also be taken not to contrast intelligence and good looks as opposites in the reboot. I like the fact that Lara shows how a good looking girl can be classy and a great adventurer making her a great role model. I don't think too strong of a move to remove Lara's sexuality aspect completely will help.


I understand your fear over CD shifting in a far more long term way than one game, but still, they're not idiots... I'm pretty sure, halfway through this new game, we will slowly start to recognize the new Lara, and more and more as we progress through the game

CD do have this all or nothing culture. We have examples like complaints of too many boss battles in TRL triggering the over the top responce of none in TRU. Too much replayability in TRL causing treasure hunt mode in TRU. I think there is some of that in the whole Lara reboot. The fashion in particular we can see the fantastic outfits Lara has worn replaced with the idea Lara doesn't like fashion and hence a gray plain outfit. How could anyone at CD seriously come up with a gray top gray cargo pants outfit for Lara? A bit worrying. Overall I fear maybe CD have pushed the changes in Lara's image too far, too fast. I am waiting to see if they will push to emotional concept too far.

d1n0_xD
29th Jun 2011, 08:58
I like the fact that Lara shows how a good looking girl can be classy and a great adventurer making her a great role model. I don't think too strong of a move to remove Lara's sexuality aspect completely will help.

My point exactly. :thumb:

Elliot Kane
29th Jun 2011, 10:00
Greenas,


But marketing and sales work statistically, not emotionally, so obviously what I think about the franchise doesn't have any affect on what their advertising is like. I wouldn't want it to either, because if the new Tomb Raider doesn't sell well, there likely won't even be a sequel...

Indeed. A dead TR franchise is something none of us want.


***


I like the fact that Lara shows how a good looking girl can be classy and a great adventurer making her a great role model

Gemma's summed up my view, too, here.

Personally, I don't find anything chauvinistic about believing that strong, intelligent and independent minded women can also be beautiful.

If you look at the most popular real life stars, be they male or female, musical artists, sports stars, actor/esses or anything else, they tend to have one thing in common: they are aspirational figures to their own gender and desired by the other gender (With the obvious overlap/exceptions for gays).

Lara has always had that, too, as evidenced by her strong fan base amongst both genders. I'd hate to see her lose either aspect of that. She's one of very, very few game characters who is also a superstar in her own right.

Danielsun_
29th Jun 2011, 23:03
I agree, the name is important, but if CD had continued with the character as she was in Underworld, the game wouldn't have half the attention it's getting now!!!! Mostly, only fans would care, but with this reboot most of the gaming community is paying attention!!!!

So yeah, the name is important, but the name alone is not enough!

Haha dont worry Dark7angel im sure itll work out for the best, im with you on this i know this change is needed, teflon coated lara is not something that is relevant in this day an age, a person who can sustain injury and be human is, i look forward to this release

Driber
30th Jun 2011, 07:30
I'm enjoying reading the comments in this thread :)

TR fans fiercely arguing their (contradicting) opinions and feelings about Lara while staying mature and not resorting to flaming to get their points across.

That is how I like to see it :thumb:

JRod108
30th Jun 2011, 07:36
I really wouldn't have payed attention to this game if Lara's name wasn't on it. Not because this didn't look like a good game, mind you, but the survival genre has never been my forte. In fact, I've never played a game like this, really. However, once I thought it through, I've come to the conclusion that I like the direction this game is going.

CD has so far made two very similar games and one remake that wasn't really that different from what they came up with on their own. Aside from the obvious lack of boss fights in TRU, the only real differences between these games were the plot lines and what outfits CD decided we could dress Lara up in. I didn't really like that the only thing that was sure to be different in the series (if they were to continue with this last rendition) was how we could dress up Lara. She's not a Barbie Doll, she's supposed to be an awesome explorer. And the linear, A to B platforming from the 90s isn't going to cut it now.

Hopefully they're going open-world with this, but they weren't too clear on that.... No, this new TR game is just what they need IMO. TR has a problem with lack of interest, but this new game has garnered a whole lot of attention, and I don't think it is because Lara's name is on the front. The idea is fresh as far as TR is concerned and that's what this series needs. I don't think anyone would be this excited if CD came out with a game that was along the lines as the last few.

IvanaKC
30th Jun 2011, 15:17
I really wouldn't have payed attention to this game if Lara's name wasn't on it. Not because this didn't look like a good game, mind you, but the survival genre has never been my forte. In fact, I've never played a game like this, really. However, once I thought it through, I've come to the conclusion that I like the direction this game is going.

CD has so far made two very similar games and one remake that wasn't really that different from what they came up with on their own. Aside from the obvious lack of boss fights in TRU, the only real differences between these games were the plot lines and what outfits CD decided we could dress Lara up in. I didn't really like that the only thing that was sure to be different in the series (if they were to continue with this last rendition) was how we could dress up Lara. She's not a Barbie Doll, she's supposed to be an awesome explorer. And the linear, A to B platforming from the 90s isn't going to cut it now.

Hopefully they're going open-world with this, but they weren't too clear on that.... No, this new TR game is just what they need IMO. TR has a problem with lack of interest, but this new game has garnered a whole lot of attention, and I don't think it is because Lara's name is on the front. The idea is fresh as far as TR is concerned and that's what this series needs. I don't think anyone would be this excited if CD came out with a game that was along the lines as the last few.





I can admit I wouldn't pay too much attention to the game if it wasn't Tomb Raider. You said idea is fresh, but I think we've seen enough shipwreck/plain crashes on a mystic island.

But one idea came to my mind. There are some great games from CD, but what if they just don't know what to do with Tomb Raider? It's like they were so desperate that they had to reboot the series? I have that feeling for a long time. Although this new games doesn't look bad, I still miss that 'raiding tombs and exploring' feeling when I look at the gameplay and screenshots.

Greenas
30th Jun 2011, 15:19
Hopefully they're going open-world with this, but they weren't too clear on that.... No, this new TR game is just what they need IMO. TR has a problem with lack of interest, but this new game has garnered a whole lot of attention, and I don't think it is because Lara's name is on the front. The idea is fresh as far as TR is concerned and that's what this series needs. I don't think anyone would be this excited if CD came out with a game that was along the lines as the last few.

Exactly. I agree completely.
The reason this Tomb Raider is gaining most of its attention is because it is changing its previously predictable guidelines.

JRod108
30th Jun 2011, 16:56
I can admit I wouldn't pay too much attention to the game if it wasn't Tomb Raider. You said idea is fresh, but I think we've seen enough shipwreck/plain crashes on a mystic island.

But one idea came to my mind. There are some great games from CD, but what if they just don't know what to do with Tomb Raider? It's like they were so desperate that they had to reboot the series? I have that feeling for a long time. Although this new games doesn't look bad, I still miss that 'raiding tombs and exploring' feeling when I look at the gameplay and screenshots.

No, I agree that we have seen the actual idea behind this game before, but what's different is that Tomb Raider is on the box. Like I said, the game looks good, but it has been done before. If Lara wasn't in it, no one would be as excited as they are. The fact that Lara is an icon, and their stripping her of her experience and attitude is what makes this interesting. Not that the game is simply set on an island. We have to look at this as a whole, not just it's parts. Many ideas feel fresh simply because their creators have put together old ideas in a new way.

I think they were desperate. I think they've been desperate since Anniversary. These past few games always gave me the feeling that they were trying to he epic (especially TRU) but CD never really pulled it off. And how could they? They kept rehashing everything we've seen before. Really, this most recent series wasn't too complicated. If they took away the eye candy, I think Underworld could have been played on the last generation of consoles. The reboot, however, looks like it will be a game that actually feels like it belongs with Uncharted and AC.

As far as her raiding tombs, I think she will get there. Actually, perhaps there will be a tomb in this game. Just because she's stuck on an island, doesn't mean it's not historically significant. What made that ridiculous number of ships wreck? Sea monster, perhaps? The answer can only be found on the island, and no one said it won't be found in a tomb.

Gemma_Darkmoon_
30th Jun 2011, 17:23
I didn't really like that the only thing that was sure to be different in the series (if they were to continue with this last rendition) was how we could dress up Lara. She's not a Barbie Doll, she's supposed to be an awesome explorer. And the linear, A to B platforming from the 90s isn't going to cut it now.

They didn't bring enough new idea's with TRU and that was a mistake. I will stick up for the unlockable outfit aspect of the recent TR's and think it's a brilliant addition CD made to the series. Customisation is what so many recent games are all about and don't want to see that dropped from TR.
The idea that linearity is an issue of the 90's games doesn't seem right as there are so many areas in the classics where you may complete tasks and explore areas in the order you choose. Is very little of that now. There is a huge issue of too much linearity but that started with TRL rather than the 90's games.


TR has a problem with lack of interest, but this new game has garnered a whole lot of attention, and I don't think it is because Lara's name is on the front. The idea is fresh as far as TR is concerned and that's what this series needs.

There are some great games from CD, but what if they just don't know what to do with Tomb Raider? It's like they were so desperate that they had to reboot the series?

After the great game that was Legend I agree with Ivana that CD didn't know what to with TR. The scrappy end to the TRU story really shows that and the game lost series intrest as the game lacked any big ideas. Even GOL seemed a shot in the dark. On this one I think they have really got a stronger fresh vision and direction that can get gamers intrest again (even if much of it came from Lost). CD have now got their act together however from what I have seen so far though they seem too narrowly focused on their vision. Maybe they aren't seeing the bigger picture of how it fits in with the rest of the TR series. If they don't make this Lara believeable as a younger version of the Lara from the other games then it won't work.

JRod108
30th Jun 2011, 17:44
The previous renditions weren't working, though. I'm of the belief that if TR wasn't changed in a big enough way, then it would have died. We've already seen Lara as an adventurer for the past eight games. The only things that were different were the enviroments and whatever artifact she has to track down. It's predictable. Just because this game is fundamentally different from the rest of the series, doesn't make it bad. And it doesn't mean that it won't be TR. It has plenty of the exploration aspect and perhaps the puzzles of games past.

Really, I don't think this game is bringing the survival aspect out of left field. It's actually something that was always there, but merely implied. Lara's always gone through enviroments that many people would die in. She was just too badass for us to notice it. Now, however, she's has to get to that point and I think it will be fun to see that.

As for the outfits, I never thought they were bad. Not most of them anyway, I just thought it sucked that CD seemed to focus solely on making them different across the games rather than making the actual games different from each other. Like I said, she isn't a Barbie Doll, but an explorer. She can have different outfits, just don't focus in them.

The linearity has always been an issue, no matter how you look at it. Just because the originals had slightly more options, doesn't mean they aren't linear. Lara always goes through the game on the same path, in the same room order. However, there tombs are centuries old. Why can't they be in such a shape that we can go through holes in the walls or ground? Yes, past games have had this, but it was always the same hole. Why not make the tombs in such a way that they're essentially open world? There's no reason for us to always go through them in the same room order.

d1n0_xD
30th Jun 2011, 17:56
The previous renditions weren't working, though. I'm of the belief that if TR wasn't changed in a big enough way, then it would have died. We've already seen Lara as an adventurer for the past eight games. The only things that were different were the enviroments and whatever artifact she has to track down. It's predictable. Just because this game is fundamentally different from the rest of the series, doesn't make it bad. And it doesn't mean that it won't be TR. It has plenty of the exploration aspect and perhaps the puzzles of games past.

Really, I don't think this game is bringing the survival aspect out of left field. It's actually something that was always there, but merely implied. Lara's always gone through enviroments that many people would die in. She was just too badass for us to notice it. Now, however, she's has to get to that point and I think it will be fun to see that.

Seconded. :)

JRod108
30th Jun 2011, 18:17
You know, this Lara doesn't have to be a younger Lara of the past games. She's simply a young Lara. This is a reboot, whatever Lara was doesn't have to have any affect on what whis Lara could be. Granted, I'm sure that she will turn into something we're familiar with, but we seem to be expecting this Lara to become exactly the same as the old one. She probably won't be, though. Are her parents even dead or gone? Will she even be motivated by the same things? That's what always made up Lara, but she's different now. We can't expect her to turn into the old Lara.

dark7angel
30th Jun 2011, 18:33
You know, this Lara doesn't have to be a younger Lara of the past games. She's simply a young Lara. This is a reboot, whatever Lara was doesn't have to have any affect on what whis Lara could be. Granted, I'm sure that she will turn into something we're familiar with, but we seem to be expecting this Lara to become exactly the same as the old one. She probably won't be, though. Are her parents even dead or gone? Will she even be motivated by the same things? That's what always made up Lara, but she's different now. We can't expect her to turn into the old Lara.

I agree with you!!! In fact, what would be the point in rebooting her if we ended up with the same Lara?!? No. She will turn into something we are familiar with, but she won't be the exact same character from the past games. And I think I'm glad with that...

Greenas
30th Jun 2011, 20:13
I agree with you!!! In fact, what would be the point in rebooting her if we ended up with the same Lara?!? No. She will turn into something we are familiar with, but she won't be the exact same character from the past games. And I think I'm glad with that...

Precisely! Just because she isn't going to be exactly the same, it by no means means that she's going to be a failure or worse than her previous incarnation.
This is change for the better, not worse. :D:D

Error96_
30th Jun 2011, 22:09
I'm enjoying reading the comments in this thread :)

TR fans fiercely arguing their (contradicting) opinions and feelings about Lara while staying mature and not resorting to flaming to get their points across.


I too love how the forum showcases such a wide view of TR perspectives without any flaming and it shows what a great community we have. Everyone argues their points so well and is wonderful to see how passionate everyone is about Lara. Hope CD come by here and see that.


The previous renditions weren't working, though. I'm of the belief that if TR wasn't changed in a big enough way, then it would have died.

Agreed. I think Core had already figured that out when they went with something very diferent in AOD (shame about the execution). The survival idea gels quite well for this origins game and I like it alot.


The linearity has always been an issue, no matter how you look at it.

The classics are no more linear than most of the new games I have played in the last few years. Some of the more open TR exploration bits like Lost valley, St Frances folly, Opera House, Lost City of Tinnos etc I really liked. I agree TR should go more open-world but don't think it's a fair jibe at the classics to say they didn't. TR1 was so open world for it's time and I remember being amazed by that. Straight A to B like TRU isn't going to make TR stand out. Maybe we will be amazed again if they get a more full open world.


In fact, what would be the point in rebooting her if we ended up with the same Lara?!? No. She will turn into something we are familiar with, but she won't be the exact same character from the past games.

Will she end up something familiar? I think it will be a second reboot from younger Lara back up to an older Lara after this game. By the time we have had that I am not sure how much of Lara's identity won't have been ravaged and rewriten. I would rather have a new hero than an imposter. The origins is getting big changes fans wouldn't accept through the backdoor with the young Lara context. Hope the changes are for the positive but I am not sure.

JRod108
6th Jul 2011, 15:30
The classics are no more linear than most of the new games I have played in the last few years. Some of the more open TR exploration bits like Lost valley, St Frances folly, Opera House, Lost City of Tinnos etc I really liked. I agree TR should go more open-world but don't think it's a fair jibe at the classics to say they didn't. TR1 was so open world for it's time and I remember being amazed by that. Straight A to B like TRU isn't going to make TR stand out. Maybe we will be amazed again if they get a more full open world.

I certainly hope for an openworld enviroment. I really think that should be very, very high on the list of things to do for this game. It's certainly even high on my own wishlist. In fact, that's even higher than my desire for 3PS....


Will she end up something familiar? I think it will be a second reboot from younger Lara back up to an older Lara after this game. By the time we have had that I am not sure how much of Lara's identity won't have been ravaged and rewriten. I would rather have a new hero than an imposter. The origins is getting big changes fans wouldn't accept through the backdoor with the young Lara context. Hope the changes are for the positive but I am not sure.

What can we really call Lara's identity? She has two different stories and some of the parts in one contradict parts of the other. If this new Lara has a more radically different identity beyond her being a strong, independent adventurer, then this will just be another Lara to add to our list of favorite Crofts.

sierra xb
8th Jul 2011, 02:59
I can think of a movie analogy to this issue...if we have any Star Trek fans in the house, you remember that they made one original series, four spin-off series, and nine feature films that all had continuity with eachother...same crews, same history, same direction. Somewhere along the line, people started getting bored with all of that. Each successive movie or new series was less popular than the previous versions. Even considering all of that, there are more than enough die-hard trekkers and trekkies out there that they would have been extremely dissapointed if Star trek just died out completely. So what to do? Do they just keep going with what they have? new spin-offs, new Enterprise F, G, H...?

Instead of just keeping an old franchise rolling along, they decided to "reboot" the entire thing with an "origins" story and a very clever way to restart the entire Star Trek universe. Now we have a new crew with familiar names, a new "different but similar" Enterprise, and a wide-open canvas to keep Star Trek going for years to come. Sounds EXACTLY like what is happening with Tomb Raider. Just like with the new Star Trek, we will see a revisioned Lara with maybe some different looks, different voice and a (still developing) backstory that will likely deviate from what we are used to,but in the end, I believe if this new game is sucessful, we'll see the best parts of the old Lara develop in the new one. We need to always keep in mind that Lara is going to change, whether we like it or not, and that this is just the BEGINNING of her new life. If we are the devoted Lara Croft fans that I think we are, she will grow on us and we'll end up loving the new Lara just as much as the old one...besides, in the end, we still have all of our old games to go back to if we miss the huge boobs ;)

LadyRufina
19th Jul 2011, 09:01
ARGH! :mad2: This is what is annoying me! It's not supposed to be the Tomb Raider we all know and love yet. It is an origins story, a background story about HOW Lara become a Tomb Raider right? To be the total badass that she is, she must have gone through something very disturbing in her past and this is it...