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View Full Version : Don't make the same mistake that Force Unleashed did.



Star Helper
11th Apr 2011, 14:54
One big problem with TFUII is that the game play didn't change practically at all; it was like one of it's greatest downfalls. An extra light saber and mind trick; that's all.

When people played the first one, they had to learn a whole new fighting strategy; it was challenging and fun. But when Num. 2 came along the whole tactic was already mastered. Game play became extremely easy and boring. Like it was just some extra 6 level add ons from the first.

Arkham city must learn this lesson; game play has to change up with at least 50% of something new. The whole essence that makes Batman what it is has to stay, but everything new and improved.

Just some examples: instead of just an attack button; throw in some bottom combos like other games. Give the player some options rather than just beginning the fight with the same front punch.

I use the control pad allot in the game, but never in battle mode. It might be the same for the rest of us. I was thinking maybe in battle mode giving the control pad a different function: left/right--dodge punch (like boxing), down--duck, and up--flip (possibly over enemies).

If we combine the dodging the the button combination combos, I really think we could come up with some cool ideas.

Please share your ideas to not have Batman fail like TFUII in this aspect. I always say that the people don't necessarily want different, but new. Like Windows Vista, different isn't necessarily better. Windows 7 came just improving XP, and look how popular it is. Likewise, I hope they newly improve Batman, not just come up with something totally different.

JackWinz
11th Apr 2011, 17:01
Building on Arkham, and recycling TFU are two totally different things.

Nemesis296
12th Apr 2011, 04:41
One big problem with TFUII is that the game play didn't change practically at all; it was like one of it's greatest downfalls. An extra light saber and mind trick; that's all.

When people played the first one, they had to learn a whole new fighting strategy; it was challenging and fun. But when Num. 2 came along the whole tactic was already mastered. Game play became extremely easy and boring. Like it was just some extra 6 level add ons from the first.

Arkham city must learn this lesson; game play has to change up with at least 50% of something new. The whole essence that makes Batman what it is has to stay, but everything new and improved.

Just some examples: instead of just an attack button; throw in some bottom combos like other games. Give the player some options rather than just beginning the fight with the same front punch.

I use the control pad allot in the game, but never in battle mode. It might be the same for the rest of us. I was thinking maybe in battle mode giving the control pad a different function: left/right--dodge punch (like boxing), down--duck, and up--flip (possibly over enemies).

If we combine the dodging the the button combination combos, I really think we could come up with some cool ideas.

Please share your ideas to not have Batman fail like TFUII in this aspect. I always say that the people don't necessarily want different, but new. Like Windows Vista, different isn't necessarily better. Windows 7 came just improving XP, and look how popular it is. Likewise, I hope they newly improve Batman, not just come up with something totally different.

I don't think you're being entirely fair to the Force Unleashed 2. They fixed a LOT of the problems from the first game. Boss fights were way too repetitive, the levels were just boring and grind-filled, the targeting system was horrendous, and you revisited the same locations at least twice. All of that seemed to be lessened in the second game with interactive cut scenes and gameplay events, and the enemy types were vastly improved. While I don't feel like the story was as good in the 2nd one, it did give an interesting 'alternate' take on the story that we all know and love. The gameplay improved significantly, making you feel way more like the badass overpowered force user you were meant to be in the first game. While there were aspects that got repetitive, I felt that the game was fresh, the only problem was that it was over way too soon. A full length game should take well over 5 hours to complete (and I wasn't speed-running).

From the sounds of it, you want Arkham City to follow in the footsteps of inFamous 2; reinventing the character, new moves, over 100 abilities, combos, etc. etc. That game looks like a true sequel. What I've heard and seen so far about Arkham City gives me every indication that it will also be a true sequel, but time will tell.

By the way, I'm not sure if you just haven't played the game enough, or if you just didn't play it 'right', but there are way more ways than 1 to start off a combo takedown. Maybe not 10, but I think there are at least 3 ways to start it, and then a number of ways to finish it, all with satisfying results.

Why do you want to be able to 'dodge' punches instead of crushing their fists in the palm of your hand? I'm failing to understand how you would rather see a thug punch the air instead. Not to mention that Arkham City has the ability for double and triple takedowns. :whistle:

The_Hylden
12th Apr 2011, 05:31
Catching an incoming fist, crushing it and bringing a thug to his knees, then kneeing him out cold in the face, just trumps most anything in life ;)

Zur-en-ah
12th Apr 2011, 12:54
From what we've heard already, it's been confirmed that there will be way more variation on combat and maneuvreability ... for example, the "cannon-ball" dive, the double take-down, the throwing-objects-as-counter moves, even the stealth takedowns that are environment focused ... also, because there's gonna be more than the standard 12 thugs to take on ... then this had to happen

So what I'm saying is that them making the same mistakes of TFU2 is quite unlikely

Old_BenKenobi
12th Apr 2011, 14:15
Whats the point of making a sequel if you're just going to throw away everything that came before?

kalle90
12th Apr 2011, 20:24
From what I know TFU2 had a lot more problems going to it that recycling old. Story, length, mindless beating of hundreds of stormtroopers...

Really, why did you pick up FU2 as example when there are so many good sequels that don't change much at all (Uncharted, Halo, Original Splinter Cells, God of War and Gears of War...)?

I don't care if the control scheme stays exactly the same (and gadget inventory, enemy classes etc.) as long as Arkham City is different from Asylum and the story is tight and sensible. Based on how AA was (amazing) compared to both TFUs (mediocre, bland space ships and very little athmosphere) in that sense I have no worries.

On the other hand changing too much can be negative. Mass Effect 2, Resident Evils since 4th and Splinter Cell Conviction have gotten much criticism (from fans, most critics have praised even though stating it's perhaps too different) for changing so much

Batman The Trailer Hunter
13th Apr 2011, 14:13
The Force Unleashed 2 was an excelent sequel, The combat was subperb. The reason why it suffered was that it was simply shorter than expected, and random idiots did the same moves over and over and over expected it to be different when they didnt even try new combo's.

Same with AA i remember people complasining how its just a butten masher and all you do is press X or Square. That is simply not true, the game is better when the player makes it better, If arkham city was 100% the same as AA (which it isnt) I would have no problem jumping in and pwning

BigBoss
13th Apr 2011, 15:37
TFU2 wasn't even a sequel. I beat it in 4 hours, went on the internet to see what happened, and found that levels were on the disc but I had to pay more to unlock it. That's when I realized that I was glad that I rented it.

Star Helper
13th Apr 2011, 18:20
I don't think you're being entirely fair to the Force Unleashed 2.

By the way, I'm not sure if you just haven't played the game enough, or if you just didn't play it 'right', but there are way more ways than 1 to start off a combo takedown. Maybe not 10, but I think there are at least 3 ways to start it, and then a number of ways to finish it, all with satisfying results.

Why do you want to be able to 'dodge' punches instead of crushing their fists in the palm of your hand? I'm failing to understand how you would rather see a thug punch the air instead. Not to mention that Arkham City has the ability for double and triple takedowns. :whistle:

I`ve played the game through very well, I may consider myself as an above average player (that`s how I matched up on the internet). I`m very familiar with the ten different ways mentioned: grabbling, counter, and even blowing up with the explosives). I was refering specifically to the attack button. After grabbling someone, what if you wanted to do a Van Dame roundhouse instead of a front punch. Buttom combos can add more creatividy and intellectual stimulation.

I like counters, I do them all the time. I just would like more variety. Maybe counter three at once, but later on dodge a couple followed by a good combo made for dodgeing punches. It would be cool if we could duck the crow bar and have them hit their own ally.

Just give us an endless selection of oportunites so we´re never forced to do the same thing twice. Open the doors to creativity, and let us use or abilities to the max.

About TFUII, I never said it was a bad sequel. I really wanted to focus on the fact that we loved to learn the whole battle format in the first. It was mentally challenging and we were rewarded for our efforts. But when 2 came along with almost the exact same battle format, it just got boring. No longer having to learn new combos; it all being mastered, we just flew through the game like there was no tomorrow. Everyone thinking: what the heck!

I loved learning and mastering the completly new battle format of AA, I´m just worried that that if Eidos thinks that just sticking with the same game play is a definate winner, they better think again. That`s what Lucas Arts thought, and look what happened.

Joseph Kerstein
13th Apr 2011, 18:56
I`ve played the game through very well, I may consider myself as an above average player (that`s how I matched up on the internet). I`m very familiar with the ten different ways mentioned: grabbling, counter, and even blowing up with the explosives). I was refering specifically to the attack button. After grabbling someone, what if you wanted to do a Van Dame roundhouse instead of a front punch. Buttom combos can add more creatividy and intellectual stimulation.

I like counters, I do them all the time. I just would like more variety. Maybe counter three at once, but later on dodge a couple followed by a good combo made for dodgeing punches. It would be cool if we could duck the crow bar and have them hit their own ally.

Just give us an endless selection of oportunites so we´re never forced to do the same thing twice. Open the doors to creativity, and let us use or abilities to the max.

About TFUII, I never said it was a bad sequel. I really wanted to focus on the fact that we loved to learn the whole battle format in the first. It was mentally challenging and we were rewarded for our efforts. But when 2 came along with almost the exact same battle format, it just got boring. No longer having to learn new combos; it all being mastered, we just flew through the game like there was no tomorrow. Everyone thinking: what the heck!

I loved learning and mastering the completly new battle format of AA, I´m just worried that that if Eidos thinks that just sticking with the same game play is a definate winner, they better think again. That`s what Lucas Arts thought, and look what happened.

It's already been established that we can counter two and even three attackers at once, counter thrown objects, pick up objects to use as melee weapons (including guns, but don't expect Batman to fire them), use explosive gel and other gadgets in hand-to-hand combat, fight quite possibly twice if not three times as many thugs compared to the first game, etc, etc, etc.

They stuck with the format and expanded it. That's the proper way to do it, not make a new formula or completely recycle the same crap. That gets annoying.

Nemesis296
14th Apr 2011, 03:31
They stuck with the format and expanded it. That's the proper way to do it, not make a new formula or completely recycle the same crap. That gets annoying.

As I said, this thread would be more appropriately titled "Make Arkham City like inFamous 2"

By the way, @Star Helper, TFU2 had a lot of new combos, and I don't even think I managed to unlock everything and find every holocron in my first playthrough. Granted, that it would only take a few hours to play it again, but there were elements of the game that were challenging enough to keep me guessing, and I enjoyed that for what it's worth. Oh, and you cannot possibly tell me that you got sick of mind tricking people by saying "Your friends will betray you!" "Not if I kill them first!"...that *NEVER* got old I don't care how many times you did it.

Star Helper
15th Apr 2011, 04:08
Thanks for the input; I really appreciate it!

One last thing: another mistake that TFU did was recycle the same enemies keeping the personalities the same. All I hear is just Storm Trooper after Storm Trooper..... Until you start getting dizzy and literally hypnotized in front of your TV. The 1st one did a good job in a good variety of enemies, I don't know what happened in the second.

This sounds very similar to past threads that we commented on: thugs repetitive. I like the idea of thugs, I think they should keep them in AC; but they do have to newly improve the personalities and fighting styles of them. Thugs are dumb, but not that dumb. Throwing the same front punch and kick every single time just seems improbable considering they supposedly grew up fighting on the streets. They also know something about defense. I know we have to keep the game user friendly, but just blocking one or 2 now and then keeps the game more life like.

They were Caucasians and African Americans, but that was it; all symbolic Americans. Gotham is a symbolic New York, quite possibly the second capital of the world. Just for variety they could include immigrant hoodlums. Hispanic, oriental, eastern European, whatever. Just provide some variety in the personality to keep it interesting. "you hit like a girl!" "Get him on the ground and smash his face in" in the same accent and personality, over and over again, just gets really repetitive by the end of the game.

Improving the thugs is important, but we can also throw in more variety of enemies. Thugs (snipers, and other weapons included), knifers, lunatics and mutants... that makes up just about the variety of enemies we had in the first (unless you want to include the mutant plants). In AC, they could bring in more types of enemies. Just look at the comics: Penguin's and Two Face's henchman, just to name a few. It wasn't just Joker and his thugs and clowns. I would really like to see more variety in AC.

The Jedi Guardian
15th Apr 2011, 05:12
The reason I would say there wasn't as much variety in the with thugs was the costumes and clothes. All of them, including scarecrow, zsasz, bane and croc had the same pair of pants. The facepaint and hairstyles were limited because they were locked up.

I know what you mean by other ethnicities. I'd like to have some of those other races but it would be a lot of templates they would have to make. AC is going by dress, a lot of them will have clothing from their gang and look diferrently.

The mercenary group Tyger has a different fighting style, and there will be some brutes that you can give heavy damage to.

About the AI, I think sometimes they are too smart. Sometimes in predator they turn around and start shooting and I didnt even make a noise. I'm betting there will be a lot of new dialogue. Some should be scared to heck if you appear. More arrogant comments, more dialogue about him as a myth. Some thugs should even make a run for it too. -would be sweet for bat-bola. I wish the knocked ou thugs were still there because I was always curious if they came back for a second fight or how many thugs were really there.

Arkham guns were limited to what the guards had in the armory. Sniper rifles and regular machine guns. They will definitely have more. In the turret there was a part where batman was flying and dodging turret or anti-aircraft fire. I'm hoping there are pistols, more snipers and more explosives in this game.