PDA

View Full Version : I hope Lara's motivation in the next game will be simple



Natla
26th Mar 2011, 08:08
I quite like the earlier "motivations";

TR1; Lara is hired to find the Scion
TR2; No particular "motivation" - Lara is after the Dagger of Xian
TR3; Lara is hired to find the meteorite fragments
TR4; No particular "motivation" - Lara is trying to find the Tomb of Seth

Simple, unemotional and mercenary like.

If they insist that the next game will feature a younger Lara I hope they keep the motivation to "survival" and not to "finding herself".

chriss_99
26th Mar 2011, 08:29
To be honest, I liked Lara's motivation in Legend and Underworld. In my opinion, it made the story more exciting and you could see she's emotionally involved in her pursue to find her mother.
Of course, some people see it as a drawback and a portrait of a weak and childish Lara who's got nothing in common with the "old" character, but I strongly disagree with that.

In the upcoming game Lara's motivation will also be emotional simply because her aim is to survive. She's bound to be very emotional at the beginning of the game, but then she'll probably progress. I see it as a transformation from prey to a hunter.
This idea sound pretty interesting to me and can't wait to see what CD came up with.

Kimbo
26th Mar 2011, 15:52
I agree with Natla. I'm currently replaying Legend and all the cut-scenes/dialog/background stories with her mother are just cringeworthy. It's downright cheesy. It's hard to take a really good game seriously when you get thrown off by a crappy storyline. And it doesn't get any better in Underworld.

I prefer the Lara that does it for adventure and passion. Not revenge and ~answers about her past.

Ants_27_
26th Mar 2011, 19:39
I agree with Natla. I'm currently replaying Legend and all the cut-scenes/dialog/background stories with her mother are just cringeworthy. It's downright cheesy. It's hard to take a really good game seriously when you get thrown off by a crappy storyline. And it doesn't get any better in Underworld.

It sounds cheesy cause the dialogue is worded for a woman that is within the stereotypical view on the English accent... that she's stuck up her own backside. Nothing sounds great with that accent, I'm talking the accent in general. Like who in their life ever says, "Said the pot to the kettle?" I mean c'mon... in reality you'll just say "says you-". I think that's what it meant the last time I checked! :lol:

But better dialogue makes anything interesting, even the most pathetic story seem great. Alas Quentin Tarantino. I've yet to see a modern director that can have scene after scene of dialogue, not even connected to the story that much and make me enjoy it to the extent he does.:)

But I do like motivation, personally, as now I'm older I do tend to get greatly frustrated if there isn't a motivation backing the character... although making her throw a paddy in Underworld wasn't a great thing.

larafan25
26th Mar 2011, 22:46
I quite like the earlier "motivations";

TR1; Lara is hired to find the Scion
TR2; No particular "motivation" - Lara is after the Dagger of Xian
TR3; Lara is hired to find the meteorite fragments
TR4; No particular "motivation" - Lara is trying to find the Tomb of Seth

Simple, unemotional and mercenary like.

If they insist that the next game will feature a younger Lara I hope they keep the motivation to "survival" and not to "finding herself".

I don't agree with this at all. Mercenary motivation is money. What motivates Lara to find the scion is the fact that she enjoys the thrill of the self proclaimed sport and the reward. This motivation stays true until Tomb Raider 4 when Lara begins to tire and her quest changes to setting right her mistake and avoiding an apocalypse.

I don't care her motivation. In the next game her motivation is clearly her love for ancient artifacts and the idea of being known for these great finds and proving her abilities.

Gemma_Darkmoon_
27th Mar 2011, 02:02
I agree with Natla. I'm currently replaying Legend and all the cut-scenes/dialog/background stories with her mother are just cringeworthy. It's downright cheesy. It's hard to take a really good game seriously when you get thrown off by a crappy storyline. And it doesn't get any better in Underworld.

I prefer the Lara that does it for adventure and passion. Not revenge and ~answers about her past.

I completely agree. I love a Lara that is motivitated by her own passion rather than parents or anything else like that. In Legend the writing of Lara motivation was good but the more Lara parents came into it (in TRA and TRU) the more the whole story felt disjointed. I think a more simple motivation brings Lara back to a more classic vibe and will probably make her easier to connect to. Therefore I hope they go more simple on motivation.

I wouldn't agree with those who say her motivation is different in TRLR. Ultimately it is the same hunt for adventure and an artifact (in the form of the amulet of Horus) at the start. Then later in the game the same hunt to stop a huge disaster just like with the scion, Dagger of Xian and Meteorite artifacts.

Denis..
27th Mar 2011, 07:08
i would like lara to have emotion and making difficult choices in the game..
story driven or not i like the cd lara more only coz she has emotion and personality.

Natla
27th Mar 2011, 07:10
I don't agree with this at all. Mercenary motivation is money.

I guess it's lucky that I wrote "mercenary like" and not "mercenary" in my post then. :)

LC is Me
27th Mar 2011, 19:48
I disagree completely.

While I don't think the game should be mushy and fully about finding herself....what else is there when you are a less confident, 21 year old who hasn't had the experience she would have later on in life? Having a simplified source of motivation is, well, stupid to me. It defeats the purpose of revamping Lara and focusing on that younger side of her: how it all began. The point of an origins is a bit about personal discovery. As long as they do it right, I can't say I totally agree with simplicity in this game. Don't make it too complex to understand, but give us some substance. :l

Error96_
27th Mar 2011, 21:44
In Underworld one of the key changes CD tried to make was to give Lara a more emotional side and it really didn't work. They did it so wrong and for that reason I wouldn't want them to go down the lines of deliberately writing a very emotional Lara.

They should keep the motivation simple with adventure as the starting motivation changing to survival. The real intrest in this game is lara's interaction with her shipmates which could show different sides of her personality and she could have a real drive to protect them from attacks. Cutscenes with Lara talking to them could really bring through her innocence, humour and charm. Certainly no more talking to herself.

Lara's emotions should come from her reactions to the misfortune falls upon those around her. More scenes like when she interacts wounded monk in TR2 where she consoles him as he lay there. Instead of sulking though like she did in TRU she should like the Lara of every other game and gain more determination to save herself and the remaining members of the crew

LC is Me
27th Mar 2011, 23:35
Lara's emotions should come from her reactions to the misfortune falls upon those around her. More scenes like when she interacts wounded monk in TR2 where she consoles him as he lay there. Instead of sulking though like she did in TRU she should like the Lara of every other game and gain more determination to save herself and the remaining members of the crew
This is a good idea.
Don't go too in depth but give us something more than "Hey...on an island...kinda stuck. Welp gotta get off."

That's dull and too straight.

Natla
28th Mar 2011, 06:14
I do hope they keep the "innocence" to a minimum. At the very least Lara will have been to an English public school which is quite a tough environment - she wouldn't be like a home schooled American teen with helicopter parents. Think St. Trinians.

Gemma_Darkmoon_
28th Mar 2011, 16:25
I do hope they keep the "innocence" to a minimum. At the very least Lara will have been to an English public school which is quite a tough environment - she wouldn't be like a home schooled American teen with helicopter parents. Think St. Trinians.

There are private schools in England that a family as rich as the croft family probably would have sent Lara to. Even if she had gone public school, with her inteligence it would have been at a grammar school. Having been to one of those I know they are not like the tough image you are thinking and certainly nothing like St Trinians.

There does have to be some innocence in Lara as she is not fully trained yet and finds herself in such an awful situation. I agree though that overplaying her emotion would not be so good and could become annoying.

Natla
28th Mar 2011, 17:46
There are private schools in England that a family as rich as the croft family probably would have sent Lara to. Even if she had gone public school, with her inteligence it would have been at a grammar school. Having been to one of those I know they are not like the tough image you are thinking and certainly nothing like St Trinians.

There does have to be some innocence in Lara as she is not fully trained yet and finds herself in such an awful situation. I agree though that overplaying her emotion would not be so good and could become annoying.

"Going to Public School" in the UK means "going to private school", or so I've been told. Gordonstoun, where one of Lara's bios said she went is refered to as a "Public School" despite being private. That's what I meant by "Public School". St. Trinians is a private school but it resembles a traditional Public School like Eton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_school
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordonstoun

Part of the Gordonstoun "ethos"; Hahn believed that an important part of education was to challenge a person and take them out of their comfort zone, improving a person’s ability to deal with difficult situations. Although challenge can be found in all areas of education, the school requires that every student takes part in a series of outdoor programmes particularly expeditions in the Cairngorms and sail training on the school's 80 foot vessel, Ocean Spirit.

And if you think schools like Eton are not tough because they are private then I think we may mean different things by "tough". You probably mean "like the streets" whereas I mean like being in the Army.

Gemma_Darkmoon_
28th Mar 2011, 18:49
Ah. You are talking about a independent/boarding school. Now it makes sence what you mean.

Acid_Burn
28th Mar 2011, 19:34
According to all those interviews the only motivation is surviving.

TrickyVein
29th Mar 2011, 02:43
Jeez, people - guess we need some more life perspective here. Surviving is just too dull and boring? Ever played a really good survival horror game like System Shock? Perhaps Dead Space? Have you any idea how powerful a feeling it is to be hunted, to be running out of every kind of imaginable resource, on the run, never safe - just finishing the game in this kind of scenario is enough motivation to play the darned thing.

Denis..
29th Mar 2011, 03:58
i don't know what is wrong with all of u honestly,
i loved lara s emotional type in underworld and u all didn't?!

is this how everyone is at the other countries? no emotion and no feeling?
just keeping the typical hello and how r u?

no no lara was incredible in underworld im sorry to disappoint u and because a person have feelings it makes him\her innocent? really?

from personal experience i can guarantee u that these ppl are by far more dangerous than just bullies at schools and they will hit u only once on where it hurts u most and u won't forget it.

that's how lara should be! an emotional honest person kicking the buts of those who betrayed her..
that's how everyone should be actually.

Andy64
29th Mar 2011, 15:11
I liked the emotional portrayal of Lara in AOD and the way she became really tough in her hunt for revenge but that it also show her sadness over Von Croys death. I was really wanting her to get justice.

I am going to have to agree with the others in that Lara just annoyed me in Underworld. There was way too much 'my father was here' everywhere she went or talking to herself. She just seemed to show the emotion of misserable the whole time. A simple survival motivation sounds alot better.


that's how lara should be! an emotional honest person kicking the buts of those who betrayed her..
that's how everyone should be actually.

That does make me think more classic Lara rather than TRU Lara. Also don't know that everyone should be so vengeful as you suggest. Wouldn't be so nice.

WinterSoldierLTE
29th Mar 2011, 22:28
Jeez, people - guess we need some more life perspective here. Surviving is just too dull and boring? Ever played a really good survival horror game like System Shock? Perhaps Dead Space? Have you any idea how powerful a feeling it is to be hunted, to be running out of every kind of imaginable resource, on the run, never safe - just finishing the game in this kind of scenario is enough motivation to play the darned thing.

I'll agree to that. If done properly, the survival instinct works well enough for motivation.

Denis..
30th Mar 2011, 09:07
That does make me think more classic Lara rather than TRU Lara. Also don't know that everyone should be so vengeful as you suggest. Wouldn't be so nice.

well im not saying to the users here to be vengeful but as they say..
hurt those who have hurt u when u got the chance.

a bit off topic but aw well

Natla
30th Mar 2011, 11:15
I wonder if they will have a cut scene of someone telling Lara "You have to survive" or Lara saying to herself "I must survive", just in case we weren't sure about it. Alternatively they could have Lara having doubts about whether to survive or not and have a flashback of her sitting on her father's knee in front of a roaring fire as he advises her to always try and survive. Or ... she could get on the PDA to Zip and he could jokingly suggest that she try and survive.

Ants_27_
30th Mar 2011, 18:00
]Alternatively they could have Lara having doubts about whether to survive or not and have a flashback of her sitting on her father's knee in front of a roaring fire as he advises her to always try and survive.

Well the whole directly telling her to survive will, for me ruin the idea of motivation. Yes, I'm a freak. But...

I think it would have more of an emotional effect to have premonitions that are triggered when things hit rock bottom (not thrown in at the beginning, more towards the end I'm thinking). A current example could be the Danny Boyle film 127 Hours; it works in similar context in terms of needing to survive or more so want to via the means of encouraging him to go the route of self amputation.

As primarily they should show us she needs to survive, not tell us.

TrickyVein
30th Mar 2011, 20:55
I wonder if they will have a cut scene of someone telling Lara "You have to survive" or Lara saying to herself "I must survive", just in case we weren't sure about it. Alternatively they could have Lara having doubts about whether to survive or not and have a flashback of her sitting on her father's knee in front of a roaring fire as he advises her to always try and survive. Or ... she could get on the PDA to Zip and he could jokingly suggest that she try and survive.

...and then, in case players really do forget, they could add messages to loading screens reading "remember to survive!" or "when faced with multiple enemies, don't die!" and "surviving is key to winning the game."

WinterSoldierLTE
30th Mar 2011, 22:18
I wonder if they will have a cut scene of someone telling Lara "You have to survive" or Lara saying to herself "I must survive", just in case we weren't sure about it. Alternatively they could have Lara having doubts about whether to survive or not and have a flashback of her sitting on her father's knee in front of a roaring fire as he advises her to always try and survive. Or ... she could get on the PDA to Zip and he could jokingly suggest that she try and survive.

LoL!

(While persuing an unseen terror in the pitch black of a cave, Lara's PDA beeps)

Lara: The hell is that?! (pulls out PDA)

Zip: Hey, Lara!

Lara: Zip?! What are YOU doing here?!

Zip: (laughs) I'm not there, silly! I'm kickin' it by your pool with Winston. Anyways, just wanted to tell you good luck, and always remember: Survival is the key. You've got to survive if you want to live. 'Cos if you don't live, you can't see the ending. And that's not cool, 'cos baby, it's a cool ending.

Lara: Riiiight. I'm a bit busy at the moment, Zip. I've got to go. (starts to close PDA)

Zip: Hey wait! Pick up some more Dom Perigone on your way ho... (pda closes)

Andy64
31st Mar 2011, 00:35
I wonder if they will have a cut scene of someone telling Lara "You have to survive" or Lara saying to herself "I must survive", just in case we weren't sure about it.

It's just too cheesy. It has to be implied rather than directly stated.

Denis..
31st Mar 2011, 04:44
It's just too cheesy. It has to be implied rather than directly stated.

lol.
and it will!
they said it's not open world game but the levels are big and u got options

QiX
31st Mar 2011, 04:57
I wonder if they will have a cut scene of someone telling Lara "You have to survive" or Lara saying to herself "I must survive", just in case we weren't sure about it. Alternatively they could have Lara having doubts about whether to survive or not and have a flashback of her sitting on her father's knee in front of a roaring fire as he advises her to always try and survive. Or ... she could get on the PDA to Zip and he could jokingly suggest that she try and survive.

LMAO Natla! You are a genious! Survival games will never be the same again! I cant resist picturing the young Lara sitting on her dad's knee: "You must always try and survive, my child. Never forget these words."

I'm laughing to a heart attack, my widow will take you to court for this :lmao:

Natla
31st Mar 2011, 07:30
I admit I was being frivolous. I probably wasn't paying attention properly, but I have an idea that there were scenes in the last few games with Lara talking to herself and saying things like;

"I can see in front of me a big statue. My father mentioned a big statue in his journal. This must be the big statue he mentioned. That means my father saw this big statue before I did."

I'd be happier if Lara actually said nothing in a TR game except very briefly in cut scenes. But then I'm a fan of the first few Core games, so I would say that.

RosePetals
31st Mar 2011, 09:00
"I can see in front of me a big statue. My father mentioned a big statue in his journal. This must be the big statue he mentioned. That means my father saw this big statue before I did."

Yes, especially in Underworld.
@Natla, you kill me. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Andy64
31st Mar 2011, 10:44
there were scenes in the last few games with Lara talking to herself and saying things like;

"I can see in front of me a big statue. My father mentioned a big statue in his journal. This must be the big statue he mentioned. That means my father saw this big statue before I did."

I'd be happier if Lara actually said nothing in a TR game except very briefly in cut scenes. But then I'm a fan of the first few Core games, so I would say that.

That I agree with you completely on. What the Core cutscenes could take 10 words to say the CD ones take 100. Lara's dialogue was so much sharper and quick wited in the Core games with so many classic one liners. The conversations (particually Lara/Natla ones) flowed better then.

The classic TR equivelent of Natla's parody would be 'ah. This is the statue out of my fathers journal'. Exactly same meaning just more concise and makes Lara sound more believeable.

larafan25
31st Mar 2011, 17:20
According to all those interviews the only motivation is surviving.

That says nothing.

What's your motivation right now? What's your motivation when going to the grocery store? When getting up and going to work? Everything is survival, humans have just made the act of survival more complex.

We already know why Lara sets off on the voyage, to gain experience, to prove herself, and to find fame through an awesome discovery.

Chances are given this is a Tomb Raider game, sometime down the road Lara will be dealing with powerful artifacts and mysticism in order to survive as physically leaving the island at this point appears to be impossible.

Jurre
3rd Apr 2011, 19:43
This discussion has been going on since Legend - I think it is obvious to everyone by now that there are two groups of thought: the oldskoolers who want little story and character development and the progressives who want more of that.

You can't argue over someone's preferences but I think the oldskoolers need to understand that story and character development play a big role in adventure games these days. Its basicly the one thing that made Uncharted a big succes (it must be, since in all other aspects it brought nothing new to the table).

I think Crystal D simply cannot ignore story and character anymore if they want Tr to continue to be a mainstream adventure game. Judging from what we know about the next installment I think they understand that.

Natla
4th Apr 2011, 06:23
the oldskoolers who want little story and character development and the progressives who want more of that.

Interesting choice of pejorative words to describe your two camps. It's about as fair as dividing the fans into "real TR fans" and "little kiddies with attention deficit disorder who like American teen soaps". What's "progressive" about neophilia, sentimentality and infantilism?

Jurre
4th Apr 2011, 12:11
Progressive is generally used to describe the people who want to keep up with the changing times, unlike oldskoolers or conservatives who want to conserve the old ways. I don't see whats pejorative about either words.
Sure; it's a generalisation to divide the participants into two groups, but then of course I am speeking in generality. It happens all the time; I don't see what your problem is.

Rather than arguing over the exact words I prefer you would respond to what I am actually saying about the choice Crystal D has to make.

LC is Me
5th Apr 2011, 00:56
Progressive is generally used to describe the people who want to keep up with the changing times, unlike oldskoolers or conservatives who want to conserve the old ways. I don't see whats pejorative about either words.
Sure; it's a generalisation to divide the participants into two groups, but then of course I am speeking in generality. It happens all the time; I don't see what your problem is.

Rather than arguing over the exact words I prefer you would respond to what I am actually saying about the choice Crystal D has to make.

QFT.
The words weren't meant to be insulting but meant to properly describe the two different trains of thought experienced here on the forums.
Though I must say, I'm an old-schooler who wants sort of...both?

Natla
5th Apr 2011, 06:04
Progressive is generally used to describe the people who want to keep up with the changing times, unlike oldskoolers or conservatives who want to conserve the old ways. I don't see whats pejorative about either words.
Sure; it's a generalisation to divide the participants into two groups, but then of course I am speeking in generality. It happens all the time; I don't see what your problem is.

Rather than arguing over the exact words I prefer you would respond to what I am actually saying about the choice Crystal D has to make.

OK, sorry :). I misunderstood.

As to what you said; I don't see why Tomb Raider has to mimic other "modern" games in terms of "characterisation". I prefered a mysterious and slightly unknowable Lara. Surely there's enough other games on the market without Tomb Raider having to be more like them. I think good game design, uniquely Tomb Raider-ish, is the way to sell more games. Calling people who like the traditional approach "old school" makes it sound as if their opinion is only something from the past - I disagree.:)

Jurre
5th Apr 2011, 13:51
QFT.

Quantum Field Theory??



OK, sorry . I misunderstood.

As to what you said; I don't see why Tomb Raider has to mimic other "modern" games in terms of "characterisation". I prefered a mysterious and slightly unknowable Lara. Surely there's enough other games on the market without Tomb Raider having to be more like them. I think good game design, uniquely Tomb Raider-ish, is the way to sell more games.
From my point of view it's basicly about whether Tr wants to be a mainstream game for a broad audience or a specialised game for a select audience. If they choose for the former I think they'll have to mimic certain things from games like Uncharted and Assassins Creed because that is what the big audience expects. It expects a modern game to keep up with the main streams of game evolution, if you see what I mean...

I do not think that the big audience will like a Tr that is made in the way the original Core games were made, even with things like graphical update and such... Times have simply changed to much for that... It will sell games to the old fanbase, sure, but -I am sorry for you- I think Eidos aspires their franchise to be bigger than that.



Calling people who like the traditional approach "old school" makes it sound as if their opinion is only something from the past - I disagree.
No, I mean the traditional approach itself is oldskool - the approach from the mid 90's. If you like 'conservative' better I can call it that instead...?

Flintmelody
6th Apr 2011, 03:51
From my point of view it's basicly about whether Tr wants to be a mainstream game for a broad audience or a specialised game for a select audience. If they choose for the former I think they'll have to mimic certain things from games like Uncharted and Assassins Creed because that is what the big audience expects. It expects a modern game to keep up with the main streams of game evolution, if you see what I mean...

I do not think that the big audience will like a Tr that is made in the way the original Core games were made, even with things like graphical update and such... Times have simply changed to much for that... It will sell games to the old fanbase, sure, but -I am sorry for you- I think Eidos aspires their franchise to be bigger than that.

No, I mean the traditional approach itself is oldskool - the approach from the mid 90's. If you like 'conservative' better I can call it that instead...?

As a TR classicist I am fine with being called an old skool fan. The bit I don't like is when you describe the old skooler term and really it is just a big jibe at us. The contrasting term to old skooler should be something more like modernist.

Old skool fans are for progression in the series. We just want it to be in a vain that is more true and continuous with the series roots. I will say I loved many new features of the CD games other than graphics including the grapple, TRL intercom humour, Amanda, unlockable outfits, time trials and many more. CD games are more pick up and play and ofter more acessability to new gamers with less fine skills needed to control Lara. There are indeed some aspects like music, atmosphere and level design that I think CD could improve by studying the Core games. However that don't mean I want an exact 90's game.

Going back to Lara's motivation ..some development is good. I sure don't want to see Lara link everything on the island to her parents or emotional become miserable strop. Lara's speech must be deconvoluted to a Legend/Core level. The danger with this game is overplaying the vulnerability as whinyness. I want to see more the survival instinct and fight in her to fit the survivor is born title.

Natla
6th Apr 2011, 06:03
I should add as a "oldskooler" - I prefer the term "connoisseur" - that I'm not supporting the old engine and the old graphics. I feel it is perfectly possible to have a modern game with minimal "dialogue" and with an emphasis on atmosphere, platform puzzles and black humor. It requires more creativity and risk-taking from the game creators and less listening to the money men and PR gonks. Less "filmics" and more "challenge".