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K^2
23rd Mar 2011, 21:17
Sorry, I think we need a new head count on this. If the mods would be so kind as to let it be for a while, it'd be appreciated. Thank you.

Edit: Please, only comment on "buy" or "no buy" in posts. No need to tell us what other creative means you have in mind.

Deus_Ex_Machina
23rd Mar 2011, 21:18
Probably not.

If I don't hear something real positive real soon, I will start and organize a boycott.

ArcR
23rd Mar 2011, 21:19
Undecided: Waiting on Demo.

pha
23rd Mar 2011, 21:26
I'll decide after seeing PC footage and playing the demo.

But frankly, I'm inclined to wait for a big sale based on the current information.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
23rd Mar 2011, 21:31
Voted accordingly.
"Buying the game anyways." Nothing's changed... :)

Srosa
23rd Mar 2011, 21:35
Highly undecided, because this game turned out completely different as I imagined it, at the time of the badass Reveal Trailer. Damn, if only I had a small studio with some freaking talented people (not that EM isn't ofcourse) I would have done my own Deus Ex 3, and it would have been freaking dope, with the graphics of Crysis 2 and the gameplay of the most awesome game ever made. This looks like more like a game made after a comic superhero, with some occasionally weak badassary here and there...

At this point (I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for what I'm saying but I think would have been a nice idea) given the CGI trailers being very nice, couldn't Square Enix do the game instead of Eidos Montreal? I mean... why not? Maybe they would have understood better the idea of darkness and dopness shown in the Early trailers.

...and too bad for the apparent missing of the original theme that, if remixed well, could have done a great part in the game and... does anyone like that start menu at the beginning of the new gameplay video? I find it a bit silly and too obvious.

AgentOrange
23rd Mar 2011, 21:39
I voted "Buying the game anyways" but I'll wait until the game gets out and I can see people's reviews... I'm not sure if DX:HR will be good, especially story-wise. I feel it may be predictable and not as original as I hoped...

Lady_Of_The_Vine
23rd Mar 2011, 21:46
Some posts deleted. Maybe read the ToU again.

TrickyVein
23rd Mar 2011, 21:46
As a PC user, should I give my money to a studio that doesn't develop games for the PC?

I've bought the Lara Croft franchise because I like Crystal Dynamics. Am not so sure about Eidos Montreal. We shall see.

Thanks MyImmortal for keeping us clean :)

oscarMike
23rd Mar 2011, 21:58
Some posts deleted. Maybe read the ToU again.

won't happen again :flowers:

Ashpolt
23rd Mar 2011, 22:12
I'm much less likely to buy the game now than I was this time yesterday, but ultimately it depends on how EM handle things from here on out -see the lower half of this post for details. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1586360&postcount=68)

Technically I'm still undecided, but because I really don't expect EM to handle this well from here on out, I've voted for "Was planning to, but not after recent news."

wheresmyskulgun
23rd Mar 2011, 22:17
Waiting for PC footage. I know I've already said this a couple times, but basically if it plays/looks like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmeqbB2cGfA

I'll buy. If it plays and looks like the most recent gameplay, I'll rent or wait until it's on sale. And man, will it be on sale soon...

NKD
23rd Mar 2011, 22:18
Probably not.

If I don't hear something real positive real soon, I will start and organize a boycott.

PC gamers are great at adhering to boycotts.

http://www.digitalbattle.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/mwboyvott.jpg

Irate_Iguana
23rd Mar 2011, 22:21
PC gamers are great at adhering to boycotts.

Those are CoD gamers.

BigBoss
23rd Mar 2011, 22:24
I like how the most positive option is only "I'm buying it anyway". I wasn't aware I had to take any and all recent news as bad.

Arksun
23rd Mar 2011, 22:24
Probably not.

If I don't hear something real positive real soon, I will start and organize a boycott.

A boycott based on PC footage we haven't actually seen yet, that makes sense.....

Also your arguments for pro piracy on the other thread are pathetic and offensive, please grow up and show some respect for hard work.

NKD
23rd Mar 2011, 22:29
Those are CoD gamers.

The same thing happens with every boycott. People will claim to boycott something readily since all it involves is joining a Steam group or posting on a forum. But when a game launches, all bets are off and they are going to make their decision based on whether the game is any good, not whether they signed some silly boycott.

I'm pretty disappointed to learn that the game has been farmed out to some amateurs for the PC, but ultimately I'm not going to boycott the game. If the PC version is crap, I'll get it for my console. If both versions are crap, I won't get either. Worst case scenario I'll wait for the Steam sale to ensure I get the game for as close to free as legally possible.

But I'm still going to wait and see and judge for myself based on a demo or trusted feedback from other players. Anything less would be foolish.

K^2
23rd Mar 2011, 22:30
Those are CoD gamers.
I don't think a boycot of HR will go over much better. First of all, people who join are a tiny minority, and even among them a high percentage will buy the game anyways.

What is necessary is to have a very big group looking at this as a big failure on EM's part. Then even if just a few percent will actually not buy the game, even if just in the first few months, it will be a noticeable hit to the sales. Again, nothing that will actually cause EM any losses, but maybe enough to get the suits at Square to change people in charge. Then, maybe there will at least be some hope for the Thief. This would be an ideal outcome, since most of the guys working in the studio actually done a good job. It's the designers and project leads that failed.

I'll talk to some guys from marketing dept. See if any of them will have any thoughts on this. Granted, they usually work on maximizing sales, but I'm sure they know best ways to make a product tank as well.

Also your arguments for pro piracy on the other thread are pathetic and offensive, please grow up and show some respect for hard work.
Shouldn't respect be something that goes both ways? Because I don't see any from EM.

pha
23rd Mar 2011, 22:32
PC gamers are great at adhering to boycotts.

Amusing pic, but baseless argument. Some people in a Steam group ended up buying it after claiming to boycott it, so what?

Bad Company 2 sold more on PC than console versions combined, and even DICE acknowledged that it was mostly a reaction to MW2's features (or lack thereof). Plus MW2 was the most pirated PC game of 2009.

Ashpolt
23rd Mar 2011, 22:35
Plus MW2 was the most pirated PC game of 2009.

Which in itself shows that the whole "piracy is killing the PC industry" argument is complete bunk, because despite that MW2 still sold like hotcakes on PC.

Deus_Ex_Machina
23rd Mar 2011, 22:38
A boycott based on PC footage we haven't actually seen yet, that makes sense.....

Also your arguments for pro piracy on the other thread are pathetic and offensive, please grow up and show some respect for hard work.

What ever happened to the customer is always right?

zJs9p-VNORw

It makes me so sick to see people settling for mediocrity in videogames, film and music.

If we continue to buy ****, then developers/producers/publishers/etc. will continue to make ****.

We either put our foot down now or lay down and submit.

NKD
23rd Mar 2011, 22:38
Which in itself shows that the whole "piracy is killing the PC industry" argument is complete bunk, because despite that MW2 still sold like hotcakes on PC.

Yep. Popularity of a product increases both piracy and sales. The most pirated games are typically also the highest selling titles.

Deus_Ex_Machina
23rd Mar 2011, 22:40
Shouldn't respect be something that goes both ways? Because I don't see any from EM.

EXACTLY!

As someone's sig on these forums put it: "If you want to make enemies, demand respect while you exhibit none."

Ashpolt
23rd Mar 2011, 22:44
EXACTLY!

As someone's sig on these forums put it: "If you want to make enemies, demand respect while you exhibit none."

Haven't seen that before, but totally stealing it now! Sig'd.

pha
23rd Mar 2011, 22:52
Yep. Popularity of a product increases both piracy and sales. The most pirated games are typically also the highest selling titles.

In general, there are people who pirate every game or almost every game (due to being a wannabe anarchist, poverty, high price/tax in their country, or whatever) so of course a top selling game will typically be pirated much more than a modest South American indie platformer.

Still, in the specific case of MW2, I believe some of the pirated units could be directly transformed to purchased units (where Pirated plus Purchased number is constant) if they didn't make phuxed up decisions to aggravate the fanbase. Many CoD4 fans wouldn't mind paying full price for a good sequel, but they grudgingly pirated MW2.

Aosar
23rd Mar 2011, 22:54
Hmm, personally I think I'll wait until somebody with similar taste towards games as I have will review it.

TB has said he'll do a bit on it when it comes out.

So put me down as wait and see.

Still, much more of a dealbreaker for me wouldn't actually be consolification, but a lack of diversity regarding gameplay. That is to say, not being able to do a non-lethal playtrough.

Thasc
23rd Mar 2011, 23:11
I'll wait until the demo, but the demo is going to have to be seriously amiss to put me off.

Tverdyj
23rd Mar 2011, 23:18
probably not. wasn't gonna get it release day anyhow, but after tpoday it'll take some seriously positive peer ( as in: not IGN/Gamespot) PC reviews to convince me to spend my money on this.

MechBFP
23rd Mar 2011, 23:33
This game is being developed with all the elements that made me love the original Deus Ex in the first place, so this is an easy decision for me.

BigBoss
24th Mar 2011, 00:00
It makes me so sick to see people settling for mediocrity in videogames, film and music.

If we continue to buy ****, then developers/producers/publishers/etc. will continue to make ****.

We either put our foot down now or lay down and submit.

Didn't you just get completely deleted on another thread for advocating piracy? Like literally SECONDS AGO???????

mentalkase
24th Mar 2011, 00:00
If by 'recent news' you mean that the pc version isn't being developed in-house, than that has no weight in whether or not I buy it, unless I see for myself in decent footage and a demo that they haven't taken the pc version seriously.

Otherwise everything i've seen recently has only confirmed that certain elements of the game that i've had concerns with for probably a year are still there, which is what I expected. At the moment i'm a 'still buying'.

K^2
24th Mar 2011, 00:09
If by 'recent news' you mean that the pc version isn't being developed in-house, than that has no weight in whether or not I buy it
By recent news, I am talking about this and everything that came out from the most recent trailer and comments to it. Things like highlighting, objective markers, etc. If it's anything else that's "recent", feel free to add to the list.

What I don't mean by "recent" are things like the fact of regenerating health, experience-based augmentation upgrades, art direction, and anything else we've known for months.

mentalkase
24th Mar 2011, 00:19
By recent news, I am talking about this and everything that came out from the most recent trailer and comments to it. Things like highlighting, objective markers, etc. If it's anything else that's "recent", feel free to add to the list.

What I don't mean by "recent" are things like the fact of regenerating health, experience-based augmentation upgrades, art direction, and anything else we've known for months.

I'm including highlighting and objective markers. We've known how they were being handled for months now haven't we?

K^2
24th Mar 2011, 00:20
Yes, but we assumed it was an in-dev thing. We received confirmation after the latest video that they are not going to tone it down, and are not even willing to consider making them optional.

mentalkase
24th Mar 2011, 00:35
Yes, but we assumed it was an in-dev thing. We received confirmation after the latest video that they are not going to tone it down, and are not even willing to consider making them optional.

When in the footage was it confirmed they're not willing to make them optional? They're showing the game as we've seen them before, doesn't mean there aren't options to adjust or take them off. Apparently i've missed something somewhere. I certainly never expected them to make the objective marker optional though, it'd be great but i'm not expecting it.

It's all a moot point though, they've repeatedly stated that the game is now 'content complete' and that they're just doing bug squishing and fine tuning type things until the game comes out. I for one am taking them on their word on that.

Either way i'm waiting to see pc footage and hear further on the options available with it, not judging from ps3 footage.

NKD
24th Mar 2011, 00:40
When in the footage was it confirmed they're not willing to make them optional? They're showing the game as we've seen them before, doesn't mean there aren't options to adjust or take them off. Apparently i've missed something somewhere. I certainly never expected them to make the objective marker optional though, it'd be great but i'm not expecting it.

It's all a moot point though, they've repeatedly stated that the game is now 'content complete' and that they're just doing bug squishing and fine tuning type things until the game comes out. I for one am taking them on their word on that.

Either way i'm waiting to see pc footage and hear further on the options available with it, not judging from ps3 footage.

Anfossi said on his Twitter, I believe it was, that its mandatory.

K^2
24th Mar 2011, 00:42
When in the footage was it confirmed they're not willing to make them optional?
Not in the footage. Following the footage. It was confirmed in some tweets from the devs.

It's all a moot point though, they've repeatedly stated that the game is now 'content complete' and that they're just doing bug squishing and fine tuning type things until the game comes out.
Something like that should not be difficult to disable via an option. The problem is that they are not even willing to consider that it needs an option, despite an overwhelmingly negative response. That tells you something about how they've developed the rest of the game.

The other part that really troubles me is that they confirmed that ladders always being highlighted, even when in use, is a bug, but they are not sure if they can fix it. That tells me that either their programming department is nowhere near as competent as I believed, or that people in charge of development have no idea what's going on with their project. Either one, really bad.

mentalkase
24th Mar 2011, 00:44
Anfossi said on his Twitter, I believe it was, that its mandatory.

Does that include pc? They've been pretty cagey about what features the pc version will have.

K^2
24th Mar 2011, 00:46
Does that include pc? They've been pretty cagey about what features the pc version will have.
They did not specify, but it was implied in the tone.

MechBFP
24th Mar 2011, 00:47
They did not specify, but it was implied in the tone.

You could imply tone from a 140 char tweet?

mentalkase
24th Mar 2011, 00:57
The other part that really troubles me is that they confirmed that ladders always being highlighted, even when in use, is a bug, but they are not sure if they can fix it. That tells me that either their programming department is nowhere near as competent as I believed, or that people in charge of development have no idea what's going on with their project. Either one, really bad.

Yeah that's pretty crazy. I recall one of them admitting that the development in no way went smoothly and that there's a lot more bugs than they anticipated .. something along those lines.

K^2
24th Mar 2011, 01:02
You could imply tone from a 140 char tweet?
Decide for yourself. Here is the whole exchange.

@Jeffachoo In DX:HR, will there be an option to disable the orange "glow" around interactive objects?

@FascistTinker No, it is actually part of Jensen's vision. Trust me, it's not intrusive at all; you'll have to play it. Don't trust video.

@Jeffachoo OK, I believe you :) I just found it funny looking that the ladder was still shining while Jensen was climbing on it.

@FascistTinker yeah, that's a bug. Hopefully, we'll have time to fix it.

GamerSam
24th Mar 2011, 01:05
am still buying it-- for the console.

MechBFP
24th Mar 2011, 01:09
Decide for yourself. Here is the whole exchange.

Fair enough. Still hard to say though since in many PC games you can turn off things that you can't in console games. Since he was demo'ing a console version, that may have been the context of his comment.
Doubt we will be able to though if they doubt they will have time to fix glowing ladders. :rolleyes:

Deus_Ex_Machina
24th Mar 2011, 01:11
Decide for yourself. Here is the whole exchange.

lol

Gaunt88
24th Mar 2011, 01:26
Still buying, probably day 1.

The gameplay looks like its going to be fun, and from what I've seen in trailers and the prequel novel, the story is going to live up to the original. Thats pretty much all that matters to me, and recent news hasn't changed that.

K^2
24th Mar 2011, 01:36
Yeah, I still fully expect it to be a descent experience overall. On par with Mass Effect 2, and probably better. If this was original IP, I would have bought it early on, if not day 1. But I cannot support this kind of a sequel to Deus Ex.

ArcR
24th Mar 2011, 01:46
Actually K^2... if you let go of the idea of it being the prequel to Deus Ex it becomes a promising game. I've personally started thinking of it as a part of the Ghost in the Shell universe... right about when prosthetics started rolling out. Everything matches up and the timelines fit too.

Gaunt88
24th Mar 2011, 01:51
I'm half-way through Icarus Effect, and it's tieing in with the original to a surprising degree so far, and with this sort of novel they always write it so it ties in a fair bit with the "mother-game", so I'm not too worried. I'm a story gamer, which I guess makes me a different breed from many of the others on this board (which is fair enough).

But yeah, I noticed the dates match up pretty well with GITS (which is set in the 2030s).

K^2
24th Mar 2011, 01:58
Actually K^2... if you let go of the idea of it being the prequel to Deus Ex it becomes a promising game. I've personally started thinking of it as a part of the Ghost in the Shell universe... right about when prosthetics started rolling out. Everything matches up and the timelines fit too.
To be honest, I've never thought of it as Deus Ex: Human Revolution. I've been thinking of it as Invisible War: Human Revolution, a worthy prequel that might even surpass the "original".

But the Deus Ex logo on the box is sufficient for me to apply different standards. That's what EM wanted, after all, and that's what they get. As such, it does not meet my expectations for a full price buy. It meets my expectations for sub-$10 sale buy. I suspect, it won't take long.

P.S. I would really like to see a good box art for IW:HR.

Serendip1ty
24th Mar 2011, 02:26
The other part that really troubles me is that they confirmed that ladders always being highlighted, even when in use, is a bug, but they are not sure if they can fix it. That tells me that either their programming department is nowhere near as competent as I believed, or that people in charge of development have no idea what's going on with their project. Either one, really bad.

Could you plz show me a link?

If it's really that hard to fix, that doesn't necessarily mean the programmers are "idiots". That would only confirm they built the highlighting system with no off-switch in mind. If it has become an essential part of the (modified) tomb raider engine it's plausible that disabling it requires chunks of code to be rewritten = possible new bugs that would require testing.

As for am i buying the game or not, i'm waiting for some reviews.

K^2
24th Mar 2011, 02:36
Could you plz show me a link?
I've quoted the entire exchange on previous page in this post (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1586569&postcount=42).

And here is the link to the source (http://twitter.com/Jeffachoo), for your convenience.


If it's really that hard to fix, that doesn't necessarily mean the programmers are "idiots".
I've done enough programming under Direct3D 9 to know that it does. But I've also talked to the graphics programmers on this project, and I know they are not idiots. Which leaves only one possibility. Dugas has no clue what he's talking about.

Ashpolt
24th Mar 2011, 02:38
Actually K^2... if you let go of the idea of it being the prequel to Deus Ex it becomes a promising game. I've personally started thinking of it as a part of the Ghost in the Shell universe... right about when prosthetics started rolling out. Everything matches up and the timelines fit too.

I know you weren't talking to me, but:

If I let go of the idea of this being the prequel to Deus Ex, I lose the very reason I was interested in it in the first place. There are loads of games out there I could be interested in, I chose this one in specific because of the very fact that it's meant to be the next instalment in the Deus Ex franchise.

ArcR
24th Mar 2011, 02:57
If I let go of the idea of this being the prequel to Deus Ex, I lose the very reason I was interested in it in the first place. There are loads of games out there I could be interested in, I chose this one in specific because of the very fact that it's meant to be the next instalment in the Deus Ex franchise.

I came here for the same reason. Having invested quite a bit of time here I rather reframe the situation than implode. Granted I don't spend nearly as much time on here as I used to. At this point it's pretty obvious that in design this game is a radical deviation. They said it themselves "we started from scratch". Decision made. Whats next?

K^2
24th Mar 2011, 03:08
Hope that next time we'll have people upset by BOTH IW and HR and maybe THEN somebody's going to listen when they announce DX4?

MechBFP
24th Mar 2011, 03:13
Hope that next time we'll have people upset by BOTH IW and HR and maybe THEN somebody's going to listen when they announce DX4?

Since it is fairly obvious that barely anyone is going to be upset, I doubt it.
But keep fighting the good fight!

Von Paulus
24th Mar 2011, 03:20
I came here for the same reason. Having invested quite a bit of time here I rather reframe the situation than implode. Granted I don't spend nearly as much time on here as I used to. At this point it's pretty obvious that in design this game is a radical deviation. They said it themselves "we started from scratch". Decision made. Whats next?
That reminds me what happened with Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rice. In the end, the only resemblance with the original IP was the name Operation Flashpoint.

Edit: I only saw now that some people in another thread came to the same conclusion.
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1586307&postcount=52

MaxxQ1
24th Mar 2011, 06:19
I know you weren't talking to me, but:

If I let go of the idea of this being the prequel to Deus Ex, I lose the very reason I was interested in it in the first place. There are loads of games out there I could be interested in, I chose this one in specific because of the very fact that it's meant to be the next instalment in the Deus Ex franchise.

^^^This^^^

QFT.

^^^What he said.

I agree.

jtr7
24th Mar 2011, 08:04
Agreed!


I'm still undecided, and will watch for the community reviews for a long time before I make my choice to buy or avoid. The day-one purchasers will be my consumer's guide, the full bell curve of opinions will be taken into account and compared to what matters to me in games.

finc.Loki
24th Mar 2011, 08:46
I voted undecided, but only if this is some kind of disaster, but I doubt that is the case and I will almost certainly buy it.
It will be the same game and it might actually be a blessing in disguise:

Example:
Bioshock 1, was a great game and pretty damn good on PC.
That was a console game and the PC version (mainly the User interface) was made by a third-party developer, just like Nixxus.
That game didn't really feel like a console port, at least to me and I know I'm not alone in thinking so. I credit that to them actually letting a third-party focus 100% of the PC UI..

This could be a good thing, we know most games today are just console ports, but this way we could get a proper PC user interface and inventory etc etc. Especially since the norm today is to slap on a PC UI at the very last month before going gold, leaving it a lot to be desired. This way it might actually get more attention paid to it compared to if it was done "in-house" by clearly console focused development.
The game should still be the same code and same game regards to everything else, I doubt it will be a "different" game with different levels and game play, it should all be the same except PC features made by Nixxus.

So being optimistic I hope that this is just similar as to how it was with Bioshock 1, it felt like a PC game and played really well.

It could even be that we get less "highlighting" and things like that, since they focus on PC version they will do everything from that point of view, DX11 features etc who knows?

I don't really know how it works in game development, but I would imagine that Nixxus simply sit there and implement PC features, IE graphic tweaks and UI?
It's not like they are the primary developers, in regards to the actual game play and story and layout of the levels etc. Even if they code EVERYTHING, it is still approved and decided upon back at the main developers.

Em can't be that stupid that they let the PC game be a "different" game in regards to story/gamplay/levels etc, then again that crap happened with a Splinter cell game I recall *shudder to think that would happen*.

Just look at Crysis 2, no DX11 and no graphical options in menu at all, cause they didn't "have time or care", the console development impacted the PC version (their own words at Crytek).

So here's looking at the glass half-full instead...

SageSavage
24th Mar 2011, 09:00
So, "Buying the game anyways" is taking the lead with 39% vs 26% for "Undecided", huh? That's just great.

K^2
24th Mar 2011, 09:03
Too bad this is not a representative sample. Statistics like that would have given a panic attack to someone at Square. Hopefully, it's enough for a "mild concern" at least.

Brockxz
24th Mar 2011, 09:09
Voted Undecided. Yes, i have already preordered the game but there is still time to cancel it. I will wait for playable pc demo to decide to proceed with preorder or not. And no, pc gameplay trailer will not be enough to convince me. I have to play myself to be sure that it's not another bad port or Invisible Wars frakuo.

K^2
24th Mar 2011, 09:23
So if there is no demo?

biofuel
24th Mar 2011, 09:29
I'll be employing my usual tactic.. pre-owned baby!!

Brockxz
24th Mar 2011, 09:32
So if there is no demo?

Most likely i will downlaod you know what to see if i like the game. And if that won 't be available before store process my preorder then i will just cancel my order. I don 't buy games anymore if i can't try them before (last time i did that was DX IW and you know what was it). No marketing trailer bull**** will convince me to do that.

ZakKa89
24th Mar 2011, 09:36
After some thinking, still buying.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/03/24/eidos-montreal-outsources-deus-ex/

They do have a point. Nixxes atleast has some experience and the pc versions they've worked on were all good apperently. Nothing has changed from before, just like Tecman said: We should still worry as much as before, but no real need to worry more. Tecman tested almost every game Nixxes worked upon and they are all good. I can personaly testify the pc version of lara croft and the guardian of light is GREAT. A lot of graphical options including AA, fully customizable controls (ackowledges every button on my mouse) and it played like a charm. Looks really good as well and no locked FPS. Kane and Lynch 2 have enough options as well.

I've also read from some comment on RPS that the Legacy of Kain pc versions were acceptable.
After giving this some real thought, without assumptions, this really doesn't mean we need to worry more (or less). Nothing changed in that regard.

TheUnbeholden
24th Mar 2011, 12:34
I voted undecided, but only if this is some kind of disaster, but I doubt that is the case and I will almost certainly buy it.
It will be the same game and it might actually be a blessing in disguise:

Example:
Bioshock 1, was a great game and pretty damn good on PC.
That was a console game and the PC version (mainly the User interface) was made by a third-party developer, just like Nixxus.
That game didn't really feel like a console port, at least to me and I know I'm not alone in thinking so. I credit that to them actually letting a third-party focus 100% of the PC UI..

This could be a good thing, we know most games today are just console ports, but this way we could get a proper PC user interface and inventory etc etc. Especially since the norm today is to slap on a PC UI at the very last month before going gold, leaving it a lot to be desired. This way it might actually get more attention paid to it compared to if it was done "in-house" by clearly console focused development.
The game should still be the same code and same game regards to everything else, I doubt it will be a "different" game with different levels and game play, it should all be the same except PC features made by Nixxus.

So being optimistic I hope that this is just similar as to how it was with Bioshock 1, it felt like a PC game and played really well.

It could even be that we get less "highlighting" and things like that, since they focus on PC version they will do everything from that point of view, DX11 features etc who knows?

I don't really know how it works in game development, but I would imagine that Nixxus simply sit there and implement PC features, IE graphic tweaks and UI?
It's not like they are the primary developers, in regards to the actual game play and story and layout of the levels etc. Even if they code EVERYTHING, it is still approved and decided upon back at the main developers.

Em can't be that stupid that they let the PC game be a "different" game in regards to story/gamplay/levels etc, then again that crap happened with a Splinter cell game I recall *shudder to think that would happen*.

Just look at Crysis 2, no DX11 and no graphical options in menu at all, cause they didn't "have time or care", the console development impacted the PC version (their own words at Crytek).

So here's looking at the glass half-full instead...


You do realize Bioshock had serious mouse issues, called mouse acceleration that could not be turned off, it took just over 3 months after the games release before they patched it... what I'm saying is controls and UI are 2 causes for concern.

They delivered on the UI.. mostly.

The game also lacked an inventory (it did have a weapons/plasmids screen, but that only served as a quick way to see what weapons and plasmids you have)... you could still carry all the weapons you find without having to discard one and each time you tried to pick up some food you would automatically scarf it down like a hobo.

It also lacked a screen to show you how much 'components' you've found.. you had to go to a friggin workstation just to see what you've found.
It also suffered from being to easy due to the vitachambers not requiring to be activated or having any penalty for being used. Either way it could have had more PC focus.

ZakKa89
24th Mar 2011, 12:38
bioshock is a bad example because you can't fix something that's broken at it's core ;p. I played the pc version and it had terrible textures and animations, just like on the 360.

Kvltism
24th Mar 2011, 12:52
If they don't cough up some PC screens/footage soon, I'll probably cancel my pre-order and return that c-note to my pocket. Can wait on reviews (or a demo, lol) from that point.

ZakKa89
24th Mar 2011, 12:56
What do you mean with 'soon'? Obviously there still needs to be a lot of work done on the pc version so don't expect any pc footage that resembles what we can expect in the release 'soon'.

Kvltism
24th Mar 2011, 13:00
Someone in the other thread said a fortnight. I'd shift the goalposts a bit. Maybe the end of April; if there's no love for the PC community by then, they lose a sale.

[FGS]Shadowrunner
24th Mar 2011, 13:03
Boycotts, bans, chaining yourself to a copy of DX1 etc and stuff are all very silly, it's better to educate people and develop them and communicate effectively.

The Highlighting is...

1. Very cool trick
2. Very neat
3. Very clever piece of games industry
4. very very very very very very very very very very very very irritating.

Plz no highlighting from a distance, in PC version.

nameless1
24th Mar 2011, 13:17
Dammit, I'm buying the game anyways! I don't like some of the recent news regarding the PC version, but at the same time, I know that this game will have an awesome story, and a setting thats much better than most of the games out there. Even if there are some bad decisions, this game will be more complex than other games (just look at the inventory.. it's grid based, and very functional). Second, this game is not following the same modern, predefined chablons (every shooter nowdays seems the same..), but it's doing it's own thing, and that can only be good (Bioware games, although very good, except DA2, feels the same, and that can be bothersome). Stalker, Witcher, when they came out in 2007, were the breath of fresh air, and I hope it will be the same with Human Revolution..

[FGS]Shadowrunner
24th Mar 2011, 13:30
Inventory grid-based, hmm, didn't this come out in a well-known game in 2000.

Predefined Chablons --- haha predefinement is EXACTLY what highlighting everything at distance is. The arrows on the wall, it's like having a Satnav in your car that won't shut up. Good for kids and shooter fans.

Making things too obvious. The chase is better than the catch, but hey I see no chase...

Lady_Of_The_Vine
24th Mar 2011, 13:33
Dammit, I'm buying the game anyways!
In our present physical condition, you only live once... and rather briefly, huh? :cool:

I can't wait to buy DXHR... more importantly, I can't wait to play it. :)

[FGS]Shadowrunner
24th Mar 2011, 13:38
Me too, but I feel let down to some degree. I had faith that this wasn't going to have IW HUD mistakes all over again, it's really going to make the difference whether I play this game 3 times or for the next ten years solidly.
My genius IQ and ADHD require me to play games that engage brain activity, arrows, conveniently placed stuff, and that orange glow on everything even to the back of the room, is verging on insulting to some fans probably.
I hope it can be understood.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
24th Mar 2011, 13:40
Shadowrunner;1587002']
My genius IQ and ADHD require me to play games that engage brain activity, arrows, conveniently placed stuff....

Me too! I think we should be friends. Check your notifications. :p

chip5541
24th Mar 2011, 13:47
Try having Sleep Apnea and a B-12 Deficiency. I need all the help I can get. BTW, I plan on getting the game although not sure if PC or PS3.

Happy
24th Mar 2011, 13:51
I'm going to wait for the first few patches before I make up my mind :)

Kvltism
24th Mar 2011, 13:56
Shadowrunner;1586981']Boycotts, bans, chaining yourself to a copy of DX1 etc and stuff are all very silly

Which is not what I intend to do. Cutting off the pre-order restores my power as a consumer, as opposed to giving them a guaranteed sale that may not be warranted. It lets me wait to make damn sure the product really is worth $100. That's a lot of money to throw down for a game, after all.

If I do nothing, and the game isn't as good as expected, my grievances won't count for squat because they have already got my money. As the Australian Democrats' motto states bluntly: "keep the bastards honest."

auric
24th Mar 2011, 13:58
Considering the "augmented edition"
never bought an edition of anything before, so this will be my first.
:)

Arksun
24th Mar 2011, 14:08
Which is not what I intend to do. Cutting off the pre-order restores my power as a consumer, as opposed to giving them a guaranteed sale that may not be warranted. It lets me wait to make damn sure the product really is worth $100. That's a lot of money to throw down for a game, after all.

If I do nothing, and the game isn't as good as expected, my grievances won't count for squat because they have already got my money. As the Australian Democrats' motto states bluntly: "keep the bastards honest."

It is extremely unlikely we won't see a single PC-specific gameplay video within the next 4 months, so cancelling a pre-order now based on pure speculation is a bit silly imho, as they only take the money from your account upon shipping.

My pre-order stands, until I have actual facts, and THEN i'll decide whether to cancel.

nameless1
24th Mar 2011, 14:11
Shadowrunner;1586993']Inventory grid-based, hmm, didn't this come out in a well-known game in 2000.

Predefined Chablons --- haha predefinement is EXACTLY what highlighting everything at distance is. The arrows on the wall, it's like having a Satnav in your car that won't shut up. Good for kids and shooter fans.

Making things too obvious. The chase is better than the catch, but hey I see no chase...

Cut the crap!! I already said what I feel about highlighting! But, there are no perfect game, and that's what I was trying to say.. Look at the inventory in modern RPGs (Oblivion, Fallut 3, DA2, Mass Effect..).. they're ******* terrible, but HR did it right..

Arksun
24th Mar 2011, 14:12
It makes me so sick to see people settling for mediocrity in videogames, film and music.

If we continue to buy ****, then developers/producers/publishers/etc. will continue to make ****.

We either put our foot down now or lay down and submit.

I have no problem with taking a stand by not buying. I DO have a problem with trying to justify illegally downloading a game. Pathetic lame excuses to justify stealing don't wash with me.

In fact with the huge budgets that go into making games these days, if there was no piracy at all DX HR could have just been a PC only game and easily covered its costs.

Kvltism
24th Mar 2011, 14:30
It is extremely unlikely we won't see a single PC-specific gameplay video within the next 4 months, so cancelling a pre-order now based on pure speculation is a bit silly imho

The end of April is when I'll be making the call. There are plenty of records, books and games that will provide value for money, where DX:HR is not a sure thing at this juncture. And for $100, I expect nothing less.

Screens and footage would set many minds at ease.

Rainhands
24th Mar 2011, 14:40
How can anybody make a call on this game so early? I have not seen enough to justify a boycott, or even purchase to be honest. The game does not have to be perfect for me to pay money. It just needs to be a good game in its own right. Whether its developed on consoles or not does not matter to me. The only thing that frustrates me is the omnipresent orange glow. It is growing tired and I have not even played the game yet. Beyond that everyone needs to chill and wait for more information before throwing childish fits.

It is also ironic that people complain about the lack of quality in a game, but decide its worth torrenting. Then when the next game arrives that does not meet their standards they wonder why. Perhaps it is because you did not support the developer? This game will not be perfect. It does not have to be. But if it is good then I say you should support Eidos. Boycotting it will only make them cater to the people that loved it for what it is. Understand?

Srosa
24th Mar 2011, 15:07
Try having Sleep Apnea and a B-12 Deficiency. I need all the help I can get. BTW, I plan on getting the game although not sure if PC or PS3.

Who are you? :scratch: :p A new moderator?

[FGS]Shadowrunner
24th Mar 2011, 15:17
You see the problem... Devs are seeing this as just another rant... because some fans ranted about everything from 3rd person to Adam's haircut you have cried wolf one too many time and they don't see this as any different and are probably not taking much notice, just waiting for it to fizzle out.

They rely a lot on what testers tell them. Just I wonder who the hell was giving them advice. Seriously. I'd have done it for a free copy of the game... and been able to spot within 10 seconds that it wasn't going to work, since DX is about choice, choosing paths etc. Remove choice, you've killed the game experience.

Also not only the highlight from a distance issue, there is overkill on actual highlight itself. The ladder, come on, this is Deus Ex and you are telling me that this ladder is a ladder. I can see it's a ladder, why destroy the beautiful art direction and free-roaming of Deus Ex with bloomin' arrows and glow.

If the Dev's can't accept that highlighting from distance is a disaster if in the Alpha, then at least they can accept that highlighting even the ladders, is going too far, It's pretty obviously a LADDER!

Daedalus Ciarán
24th Mar 2011, 16:09
I was undecided when I voted two minutes ago, but I just read the game is a PC port in the meantime. I'd like to change mine to not buying after recent news.

auric
24th Mar 2011, 22:06
Actually, i'm more concern if it'll work on my pc than whether its going to be good or not.
:D

Deus_Ex_Machina
24th Mar 2011, 22:10
Cutting off the pre-order restores my power as a consumer

This guy shows the real power of consumers! :D

zJs9p-VNORw

Lady_Of_The_Vine
24th Mar 2011, 22:10
I was undecided when I voted two minutes ago, but I just read the game is a PC port in the meantime. I'd like to change mine to not buying after recent news.

I would suggest you read this thread: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=117168
You may not wish to change your mind then... ;)

K^2
24th Mar 2011, 22:14
Who are you? :scratch: :p A new moderator?
He's a mod from Battlestation: Midway section. Mods from other parts of this board still show up as mods here.

St. Mellow
25th Mar 2011, 22:25
"Undecided." Not gonna explain further, as I don't wanna break any rules. Haha.

Whompa
25th Mar 2011, 22:32
"buying the game anyways" is implying I give 2 ****s about the nerds complaining on this forum.

jd10013
25th Mar 2011, 23:40
not without a demo. and even with one, probably not till it's in the bargain bin or 9.99 weekend download special on steam.

gh0s7
26th Mar 2011, 03:56
Buying it anyway. :)

Just waiting for Summer to get a better scope of where to pre-order it from...

Senka
26th Mar 2011, 04:34
Haven't cancelled my ridiculously cheap pre order... yet.

jtr7
26th Mar 2011, 04:36
"buying the game anyways" is implying I give 2 ****s about the nerds complaining on this forum.

It also implies you have questionable standards, like to gamble, and are a quasi-philanthropist, even if that isn't true.

auric
27th Mar 2011, 12:50
Haven't cancelled my ridiculously cheap pre order... yet.

ridiculously cheap?
what's the cost difference?

bojo0noja
27th Mar 2011, 12:58
I will still buy it but I am kinda worried about hte PC version of the game. I hope we get to see some PC footage soon or at least some info about the port.

Red
27th Mar 2011, 15:55
ridiculously cheap?
what's the cost difference?

'twas 29,95£ for Augmented Edition.

BigBoss
28th Mar 2011, 07:32
I voted buying because if I honestly put in enough effort to weigh every pro and con of every purchase I make above 50$, I would waste soooooo much time. They aren't making a cod clone like MoH or homefront so just for that I feel ok supporting a different idea, even if it isn't 100% to my liking yet. If it does well, there's always the sequel.

Deus_Ex_Machina
28th Mar 2011, 10:02
So if there is no demo?

If there is no demo, especially BEFORE release, then I think it's safe to say that I won't be purchasing DXHR.

The last game I was anticipating that was supposed to have a demo before release but had its demo canceled was Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising, and when I made the mistake of purchasing that game without playing a demo beforehand, I soon discovered why the marketing guys at Codemasters opted to not release a demo.

In my experience, MOST devs don't release a demo because they don't want to risk losing sales as a result. The only other reason MOST of the time is to maintain hype for high-profile games.

auric
28th Mar 2011, 10:45
'twas 29,95£ for Augmented Edition.

How much is that in Aus?

I tried converting, it confused me. Changing 29.95 to 2995 for what reason I don't know, lol
which leads to 4000

if its just 30£ =$40
how come buying in Au directly costs $99 for pre-order?
:scratch:

ZakKa89
28th Mar 2011, 10:46
If there is no demo, especially BEFORE release, then I think it's safe to say that I won't be purchasing DXHR.

The last game I was anticipating that was supposed to have a demo before release but had its demo canceled was Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising, and when I made the mistake of purchasing that game without playing a demo beforehand, I soon discovered why the marketing guys at Codemasters opted to not release a demo.

In my experience, MOST devs don't release a demo because they don't want to risk losing sales as a result. The only other reason MOST of the time is to maintain hype for high-profile games.

To be honest, deciding if you'll buy a game based upon it's demo alone is silly either way. Even if the demo of a game is amazing, the full game can dissapoint and vice versa.

Jerion
28th Mar 2011, 10:50
To be honest, deciding if you'll buy a game based upon it's demo alone is silly either way. Even if the demo of a game is amazing, the full game can dissapoint and vice versa.

There's a certain amount of risk in anything. The more educated you can make your guess before dropping the cash, the better. Though yes it is a little silly to base the buying decision on the demo alone. :)

Senka
28th Mar 2011, 10:56
How much is that in Aus?

I tried converting, it confused me. Changing 29.95 to 2995 for what reason I don't know, lol
which leads to 4000

if its just 30£ =$40
how come buying in Au directly costs $99 for pre-order?
:scratch:

I got it when it was cheap which equaled $50 aud. Not bad since EB games (the swines) are trying to pilfer the Augmented edition for $120.

auric
28th Mar 2011, 11:02
not much goes higher than $99 here, even StarCraft II don't go higher than it.
:)

Nyysjan
28th Mar 2011, 17:26
Undecided.
After the gameplay trailer this game went from my "buy at launch" list into my "take a few steps back and see if it explodes" list.
Alpha protocol ended up doing the same thing, i finally bought it 3 weeks back for 20€ (new, pc version, was on sale), and frankly, i can't say i regret the decision of waiting (wish i had done the same with Dragon Age 2, oh Bioware, why have you failed me :(), i will most likely end up buying DE:HR, eventually, maybe even at launch (depends on how it meshes with SW:TOR launch, if they're close i will most likely end up waiting for SW:TOR instead unless a miracle happens).

Stormwolf
28th Mar 2011, 17:29
who the hell makes a thread like this when we are trying to get a point across with the highlighting? if enough say **** it, ill buy it anyways they might think it's not worth removing it.

IwantedOrange
28th Mar 2011, 17:38
I personally looking forward to DX3 as a interesting game, but not really as a real DEUS EX game. There's just too many things that go wrong and I think, the third DX will disappear from the memory of many players as fast as the bad second DX.

So if I really buy this game, then not for the full-price.

K^2
28th Mar 2011, 18:23
who the hell makes a thread like this when we are trying to get a point across with the highlighting? if enough say **** it, ill buy it anyways they might think it's not worth removing it.
Because 30 people who changed their mind about buying the game make a bigger impact than 300 who just complain about it.

Stormwolf
28th Mar 2011, 18:26
Because 30 people who changed their mind about buying the game make a bigger impact than 300 who just complain about it.

you say that as if we complain just to complain when that couldn't be farther from the truth (atleast me anyway).

K^2
28th Mar 2011, 18:31
you say that as if we complain just to complain when that couldn't be farther from the truth (atleast me anyway).
I know a lot of people are serious, but most people aren't. Developers know that people who come by the forum, even if just to complain, are very likely to buy the game anyways. 300 people saying, "No, we do not like this," is not going to change their mind.

Of course, of the 30 people who said they won't buy, 2/3 will buy anyways, leaving a tiny margin of people who are actually going to stick with it. And yet, that's still far more significant than complaints.

Shaltiar
28th Mar 2011, 18:37
Of course I'm still buying this. I don't understand threads like this or their purpose.

K^2
28th Mar 2011, 18:45
Of course I'm still buying this. I don't understand threads like this or their purpose.
To show that there are still people who care about the actual gameplay, not whether or not it has a book and a comic to tie into the story. But if these are all you personally care about, I do not expect anything else from you.

Shaltiar
28th Mar 2011, 18:49
How can anyone comment about gameplay when they haven't played it yet?

JCpies
28th Mar 2011, 18:51
Of course I'm still buying this. I don't understand threads like this or their purpose.

That is because you are too simple minded.


I'm still undecided, but I'll most likely wait for it to go down in price. After seeing the gameplay I think it looks like it has a good atmosphere, however I'm not so sure about the gameplay. I can't judge it properly, since I've seen no exploration gameplay... 45% buying on release (depending on future gameplay trailers/demo) and 70% after release.
90% buying the soundtrack. :cool:

K^2
28th Mar 2011, 19:00
How can anyone comment about gameplay when they haven't played it yet?
Oh, I don't know, maybe by having played hundreds of games before? Better yet, having seen videos, PR spins, and pre-release hypes, and then having played them?

There is nothing revolutionary about HR. We've seen all of the elements before. Highlighting was in Thief DS, which a lot of people here are familiar with. It was bad there, and it's even worse in HR. Health regeneration is in just about every frigin' game these days. You really don't need to stretch imagination to know how that's going to work out. Line of sight stealth? Takedowns? Augmentations for experience points? Which part of it are we supposed to not know in terms of gameplay?

Sure, the way all these elements blend is not entirely predictable. But if you take a bunch of elements that do not fit the genre, their blend won't fit the genre either. Especially, when so little thought is put into solving game design problems.

Shaltiar
28th Mar 2011, 19:01
That is because you are too simple minded.



Simple minded enough to insult someone on an internet forum? Yeah that's me.


Oh, I don't know, maybe by having played hundreds of games before? Better yet, having seen videos, PR spins, and pre-release hypes, and then having played them?

There is nothing revolutionary about HR. We've seen all of the elements before. Highlighting was in Thief DS, which a lot of people here are familiar with. It was bad there, and it's even worse in HR. Health regeneration is in just about every frigin' game these days. You really don't need to stretch imagination to know how that's going to work out. Line of sight stealth? Takedowns? Augmentations for experience points? Which part of it are we supposed to not know in terms of gameplay?

Sure, the way all these elements blend is not entirely predictable. But if you take a bunch of elements that do not fit the genre, their blend won't fit the genre either. Especially, when so little thought is put into solving game design problems.

My bad. This is my first game ever. My mistake.

K^2
28th Mar 2011, 19:03
Simple minded enough to insult someone on an internet forum? Yeah that's me.
It took me all of 30 seconds to look through all of your posts here, and I really see no reason to disagree with JCpie's diagnosis. You are not making a good case for the opposite when you are totally sure about buying a game whose gameplay, according to you, you know nothing about.

My bad. This is my first game ever. My mistake.
Your first forum as well, apparently. There is an edit button.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
28th Mar 2011, 19:08
That is because you are too simple minded.



Your first forum as well, apparently. There is an edit button.

Be gentle with the newbies please.



Haven't cancelled my ridiculously cheap pre order... yet.

May I make a request? If you do decide you no longer want the game, please keep the order active and I'll buy it off you (assuming you can have it sent, as a gift, to an alternative address). The initial pre-order price was an amazing offer and too good to miss. Thank you. :)

JCpies
28th Mar 2011, 19:09
Simple minded enough to insult someone on an internet forum? Yeah that's me.

Last time I heard, 'Yo' mama' jokes were the top of the range insults...

I meant no offence, but maybe you misinterpreted it... :confused:


'cause it's true? :scratch:

AlexOfSpades
28th Mar 2011, 19:16
I admire K^2 by his knowledge, but he could really put some points in Charisma over his next level-up.

Just sayin'.

Edit: Still a dick? Boy, if you didnt had 10 posts only, i'd report you.

But apparently you're new, so i'll give you a break. You see that pretty lady over there, "My Immortal" ?

Yea, she loves throwing the ban-hammer over there in people. You know. There. Yup.

So, watch out.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
28th Mar 2011, 19:16
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j472/Twizted_Viewz/emoticons/offtopic.gif

Stop the insults everyone... :hmm:

K^2
28th Mar 2011, 19:19
You and your graphics card are most certainly better than me.
Not yet, but with a right shader program, I think I can get it there.

Look, you've came to a game's forum. You commented on the book and the comic, and you insist that there is no reason to talk about gameplay because we haven't played the game yet. If you seriously can't tell how that's not going to sit well with locals, you really are an idiot. If you can, then you are flamebating, and that still makes you an idiot.

At very least, learn to cut your losses.

Edit: Rogger, Immortal.


I admire K^2 by his knowledge, but he could really put some points in Charisma over his next level-up.
Phft. Everyone knows that charisma is a dump stat.

Shaltiar
28th Mar 2011, 19:33
Not yet, but with a right shader program, I think I can get it there.

Look, you've came to a game's forum. You commented on the book and the comic, and you insist that there is no reason to talk about gameplay because we haven't played the game yet.

That's cause I've READ the book and I've READ the comic, but I have not PLAYED the game. As for the locals well: "You ain't from around these parts is you pilgrim?" And flamebait? Project much?

You win K2. I'll leave your one horse town before I'm locked up in the local jail. Bigger communities make me feel more welcome.

Edit: By one horse town I mean this thread. I'm staying in the forum. :)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
28th Mar 2011, 21:20
^
Posts deleted, you don't need to join in and start an argument all over again.


I'm staying in the forum. :)

Good for you.
And next time you think you are being insulted, don't fall into the trap of responding "likewise". Simply report it to a moderator and it will be dealt with.

BlackFox
28th Mar 2011, 22:25
Yep, cant wait for this. Crysis 2 didn't grab me much and this looks a lot deeper and lovin the style of it.

sonicsidewinder
28th Mar 2011, 22:31
I am Dr. Deus. so of course.

Vasarto
28th Mar 2011, 23:22
What do you mean after recent news? This game is going to be amazing.

What do you have against it that makes you think everyone else besides you does not want this game for some stupid reason?

So far I am convinced it will live up to the original in every aspect that made the original great.

Deus_Ex_Machina
28th Mar 2011, 23:53
So far I am convinced it will live up to the original in every aspect that made the original great.

While you are entitled to your opinion, I am curious as to how you've come to believe that, especially if you've been following the development for the past few years.

K^2
28th Mar 2011, 23:56
What do you have against it that makes you think everyone else besides you does not want this game for some stupid reason?
I'm sorry if this sounds offensive, but I have no other way to reply to this statement. Can you count to more than one? There is mine and 30 other votes on that poll saying we changed our mind about buying the game. Do these 30 votes count for anyone besides me? How about the fact that they stand next to only twice as many people who are still certain they want to buy the game?

For crying out loud, at least try to account for objective reality before making blanket statements like that. Ok?

What do you mean after recent news?
If you are perfectly happy about highlighting, I suggest you go and vote. I only see 2 people saying they like it, and neither of them are you. Then there was the whole deal with the guys in charge of the project not knowing if they can fix the glowing ladders, which ultimately took them what, two days to fix? The news that PC version is going to be co-developed. The fact that we are finding out all of that from 3rd party sites, and so on. Just read the other threads. See what people are saying. Sure, many of these are minor complaints, but they do add up, and people are starting to get fed up with it.


So far I am convinced it will live up to the original in every aspect that made the original great.
If I had a dollar for every person who said exactly that on Ion Storm's forums before release of Invisible War, I'd be a wealthy man.

But hey, I'm not going to try and convince you. Just explaining why you shouldn't underestimate the number of people not happy with development, and maybe prepare you a little for the crash.

k0rdseka
29th Mar 2011, 03:39
Phft. Everyone knows that charisma is a dump stat.

:thumb:

Mobius32
29th Mar 2011, 04:14
Definately getting the game. Whetehr or not they remove highlighting (which is my main gripe with the game), it still offers more freedom and exploration than most FPS's, if not most recent games.

Plus, I'm a sucker for anything that involves stealth :)

MaxxQ1
29th Mar 2011, 06:04
If I had a dollar for every person who said exactly that on Ion Storm's forums before release of Invisible War, I'd be a wealthy man.

Fine. Gimme your address and I'll send you a buck.

Sheesh! Some people just won't let the past stay in the past...





:rasp:

Kvltism
29th Mar 2011, 07:48
how come buying in Au directly costs $99 for pre-order?

Legalised price-fixing. It's why I generally refuse to support stores like EB Games.

Senka
29th Mar 2011, 07:59
May I make a request? If you do decide you no longer want the game, please keep the order active and I'll buy it off you (assuming you can have it sent, as a gift, to an alternative address). The initial pre-order price was an amazing offer and too good to miss. Thank you. :)

If I do decide to cancel (something pretty ridiculous would have to happen though) I'll see if it's possible to change the address on the order.

Donvermicelli
29th Mar 2011, 12:56
Plus, I'm a sucker for anything that involves stealth :)

Stealth?, what stealth?

ZakKa89
29th Mar 2011, 13:26
Stealth?, what stealth?

the stealth in DEHR, duh :hmm:

Whompa
29th Mar 2011, 13:36
he's just trying to be facetious

IOS
29th Mar 2011, 14:18
I'm sorry if this sounds offensive, but I have no other way to reply to this statement. Can you count to more than one? There is mine and 30 other votes on that poll saying we changed our mind about buying the game. Do these 30 votes count for anyone besides me? How about the fact that they stand next to only twice as many people who are still certain they want to buy the game?

If you're not buying the game you have no reason to be here. That or you and the 30 others only voted that option to try to make a statement or some bs like that.

K^2
29th Mar 2011, 14:27
If you're not buying the game you have no reason to be here.
If you are buying the game, you don't really have a reason to be here either. I'm not really sure how useful that logic is.

Besides, I'm still planning to work on modding the game. Since my part consists of writing tools, I might be able to do everything I need from Demo, if such is released. If not, things will get more complicated, but I'll think of something.

BigBoss
29th Mar 2011, 14:42
Phft. Everyone knows that charisma is a dump stat.

The only game I think it has actually been useful in was Arcanum. Every two points spent in that equaled another follower up to like 6. So a massive group of 7 high level badasses would dominate any fight.

Anywho, I bet half the people if not more who voted on the I'm not buying it or changed my mind bit actually are going to and just being dramatic at the moment.:whistle:

68_pie
29th Mar 2011, 14:51
The only game I think it has actually been useful in was Arcanum. Every two points spent in that equaled another follower up to like 6. So a massive group of 7 high level badasses would dominate any fight.

In Fallout 1 and 2 it was important for followers and dialogue (though Int was more important).

pha
29th Mar 2011, 14:57
If you're not buying the game you have no reason to be here.

Horse****.

K^2
29th Mar 2011, 15:05
The only game I think it has actually been useful in was Arcanum. Every two points spent in that equaled another follower up to like 6. So a massive group of 7 high level badasses would dominate any fight.
I've seen some good uses in conversation systems, like FO3/Vegas and Bloodline, off the top of my head. But yeah, as far as actual gameplay, it tends to not do much. Hence it being a dump stat in most RPGs.


Anywho, I bet half the people if not more who voted on the I'm not buying it or changed my mind bit actually are going to and just being dramatic at the moment.:whistle:
Probably more than half, and of the rest, most will pick it up at bargain prices anyways. Still, this is more telling than the general, "I don't like it, but I'm going to buy anyways," attitude of highlighting thread.

BigBoss
29th Mar 2011, 19:44
In Fallout 1 and 2 it was important for followers and dialogue (though Int was more important).

Didn't INT affect health? That was pretty pretty random. And wasn't there only like 2 people you could recruit in fallout 1? Never played much of 2 (lost the disc)

Pretentious Old Man.
29th Mar 2011, 19:51
It's a Deus Ex game. I have to buy it, just to be sure, no matter what.

Besides, even if gameplay sucks, it will have a nice story for us to plough through.

BlackFox
29th Mar 2011, 20:03
If you're not buying the game you have no reason to be here. That or you and the 30 others only voted that option to try to make a statement or some bs like that.

I wouldn't say that the shouldn't be here but I wonder why they would bother investing their time into a game forum that they have no interest in getting.

If this is not looking like living up to your expectations why not spend your time on a game you thinkn you might actually like? Just seems a bit of a waste of your time otherwise, well it would to me but hey everyones different.

At the end of the day I spose folk can spend their time how they see fit:thumb:

Tristram Shandy
29th Mar 2011, 20:04
I've lurked on this board for a long time and I've held my tongue at all manner of lunacy until now...

People, Eidos Montreal do not owe you a video game, let alone one made to your exact specification. The notion of boycotting a video game becuase you dislike its design is truly absurd, as the only people who join in would be people who dislike the game's design: i.e. people who wouldn't have bought the game anyway.

EM's obligation is to their shareholders, and while it may appear to *some* that they're iconoclasts raring to sacrifice everything you hold dear on the altar of "consolisation", they're simply making what they think people will like, which is what all art is, free of pretense. Video games need money, and they get that money from shareholders. If you understood the vast amount of money it takes to make a game to modern standards, you'd realise that in order for any games studio to keep making video games, they're going to have to make some concessions in indulging the every single petty whim of the miniscule "fan"base.

Why do you, who say they won't purchase the game, continue to post on these forums? What is the point in exausting the precious hours of your life in discussing a product you have no intention of buying? Deus Ex is not a sacred cow, and doesn't need proverbial internet-monks to vent impotent rage at the people who are making something to please the not-so self entitled Deus Ex fans across the globe.

In short, be grateful you're getting DX game with highlighting, becuase your ideal DX sequel ain't gonna happen in the real world.

Pretentious Old Man.
29th Mar 2011, 20:08
I've lurked on this board for a long time and I've held my tongue at all manner of lunacy until now...

People, Eidos Montreal do not owe you a video game, let alone one made to your exact specification. The notion of boycotting a video game becuase you dislike its design is truly absurd, as the only people who join in would be people who dislike the game's design: i.e. people who wouldn't have bought the game anyway.

EM's obligation is to their shareholders, and while it may appear to *some* that they're iconoclasts raring to sacrifice everything you hold dear on the altar of "consolisation", they're simply making what they think people will like, which is what all art is, free of pretense. Video games need money, and they get that money from shareholders. If you understood the vast amount of money it takes to make a game to modern standards, you'd realise that in order for any games studio to keep making video games, they're going to have to make some concessions in indulging the every single petty whim of the miniscule "fan"base.

Why do you, who say they won't purchase the game, continue to post on these forums? What is the point in exausting the precious hours of your life in discussing a product you have no intention of buying? Deus Ex is not a sacred cow, and doesn't need proverbial internet-monks to vent impotent rage at the people who are making something to please the not-so self entitled Deus Ex fans across the globe.

In short, be grateful you're getting DX game with highlighting, becuase your ideal DX sequel ain't gonna happen in the real world.

http://flywithbats.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/u-mad.jpg

BlackFox
29th Mar 2011, 20:09
I've lurked on this board for a long time and I've held my tongue at all manner of lunacy until now...

People, Eidos Montreal do not owe you a video game, let alone one made to your exact specification. The notion of boycotting a video game becuase you dislike its design is truly absurd, as the only people who join in would be people who dislike the game's design: i.e. people who wouldn't have bought the game anyway.

EM's obligation is to their shareholders, and while it may appear to *some* that they're iconoclasts raring to sacrifice everything you hold dear on the altar of "consolisation", they're simply making what they think people will like, which is what all art is, free of pretense. Video games need money, and they get that money from shareholders. If you understood the vast amount of money it takes to make a game to modern standards, you'd realise that in order for any games studio to keep making video games, they're going to have to make some concessions in indulging the every single petty whim of the miniscule "fan"base.

Why do you, who say they won't purchase the game, continue to post on these forums? What is the point in exausting the precious hours of your life in discussing a product you have no intention of buying? Deus Ex is not a sacred cow, and doesn't need proverbial internet-monks to vent impotent rage at the people who are making something to please the not-so self entitled Deus Ex fans across the globe.

In short, be grateful you're getting DX game with highlighting, becuase your ideal DX sequel ain't gonna happen in the real world.

Yep I conceed, you said that 100x better than I did:wave:

K^2
29th Mar 2011, 20:17
In short, be grateful you're getting DX game with highlighting
I don't see a DX game or a product worth buying at full price. What exactly am I supposed to be grateful for? You are making it sound like EM are doing something out of the kindness of their heart. They are trying to make money off a popular name without any regard for what it stands for. "Grateful" is very far from the words I'd like to use.

Tristram Shandy
29th Mar 2011, 20:33
EM's obligation is to their shareholders


You are making it sound like EM are doing something out of the kindness of their heart.

That's the antithesis of my point, I was saying that EM need to make money over pleasing everyone. Fans ought to be grateful that EM are making a game wich is as faithful as it can be while still being profitable, rather than leaving Deus Ex at IW as a relic of the past.

Deus_Ex_Machina
29th Mar 2011, 20:33
I don't see a DX game or a product worth buying at full price. What exactly am I supposed to be grateful for? You are making it sound like EM are doing something out of the kindness of their heart. They are trying to make money off a popular name without any regard for what it stands for. "Grateful" is very far from the words I'd like to use.

I couldn't agree more. Well done.

K^2
29th Mar 2011, 20:48
Fans ought to be grateful that EM are making a game wich is as faithful as it can be while still being profitable
They are not. They are completely selling out the name without any regard for the fans. I'm sure there are people on the team who want to make as good a sequel to Deus Ex as they can, but these are not people running the whole thing. People in charge are looking at it purely as a sales project. "Here is a brand and a budget. Get as many suckers as you can."

I probably shouldn't expect anything else, really. But being grateful? Again, for what?

Tristram Shandy
29th Mar 2011, 20:57
So what would this fantastical, mythical, 'faithful' Deus Ex sequel contain?

A lack of 3rd person cover? a lack of highlighting? Anything beyond the unalteration of superficial features?
Deus Ex's fantastically sophisticated "Hack" button? A blue colour scheme?

Any meaningful features at all?

When I played Deus Ex, I remember it was a cyberpunk Action-RPG with stealth elements with a pop-culture conspiracy theory story. I don't see much fundamental difference. Unless you count the plot, but then the whole "sequel" thing wouldn't work.

Irate_Iguana
29th Mar 2011, 21:01
Didn't INT affect health? That was pretty pretty random. And wasn't there only like 2 people you could recruit in fallout 1? Never played much of 2 (lost the disc)

It didn't. Endurance determined health. You could recruit Ian, Tycho, Dogmeat and Katja in Fallout 1. Tandi worked as a sort-of follower. You didn't need Charisma for that. You needed Cha for followers in Fallout 2.

BlackFox
29th Mar 2011, 21:03
They are not. They are completely selling out the name without any regard for the fans. I'm sure there are people on the team who want to make as good a sequel to Deus Ex as they can, but these are not people running the whole thing. People in charge are looking at it purely as a sales project. "Here is a brand and a budget. Get as many suckers as you can."

I probably shouldn't expect anything else, really. But being grateful? Again, for what?

Come on be realistic, what game nowadays is not made like this? Gaming is a business now not some niche market run for an elite few.

K^2
29th Mar 2011, 21:09
So what would this fantastical, mythical, 'faithful' Deus Ex sequel contain?
This would be a very lengthy discussion was I even to attempt to cover all of the main elements. But the main difference is the philosophy behind the game. Deus Ex started with a solid FPS base and a solid table RPG base. It cut each down to essentials, and put them into a single game. Word "simulation" has been thrown around. It's not perfectly descriptive, since a lot of things have been greatly simplified for sake of gameplay. But the idea was to create an environment and let player explore it.

Human Revolution is built entirely from the other direction. It starts out with a generic shooter PRG, Mass Effect style, and tries to add elements from Deus Ex. Furthermore, instead of simply throwing the player in the deep end, they create a guided experience. It's more like showing a movie than letting player play a game.

As far as story and visual elements, they might get close. I don't know. But when you screwed up the game portion of the game, that doesn't really matter all that much. If I just care about the story, I can watch someone's run through the game on YouTube absolutely for free. I have a feeling, I'd be getting the same experience either way.

Come on be realistic, what game nowadays is not made like this? Gaming is a business now not some niche market run for an elite few.
So is the food business, but I'm not forced to eat in a McDonalds if I don't want to. I have other options.

Tristram Shandy
29th Mar 2011, 21:18
solid table RPG base

Have you ever played a table RPG? Deus Ex had RPG elements as sherely nominal as Mass Effect (I.e. Extened no further than a few weapons skills) . I don't think many of the hardcore PC RPGs can be compared with table RPGs for depth, let alone almost-RPGs like Deus Ex.


So is the food business, but I'm not forced to eat in a McDonalds if I don't want to. I have other options.

Nor does anyone force you to play HR, what's your point?

BlackFox
29th Mar 2011, 21:23
So is the food business, but I'm not forced to eat in a McDonalds if I don't want to. I have other options.

As you do with games as well, if DE:HR is not looking like a meal you would enjoy, which is entirely your decision, then you have the choice of other items on offer that might fill you up more satisfactorily.

Perhaps this might not be the sequal you want Deus Ex to be, but perhaps it may still yet provide a different experience that you'll enjoy in another way. Again of course this may not be the case, but thats the great thing about games there is always another around the corner that may grab your fancy.

Perhaps Deus Ex has run its course with you.

BigBoss
29th Mar 2011, 21:23
They are not. They are completely selling out the name without any regard for the fans. I'm sure there are people on the team who want to make as good a sequel to Deus Ex as they can, but these are not people running the whole thing. People in charge are looking at it purely as a sales project. "Here is a brand and a budget. Get as many suckers as you can."

I probably shouldn't expect anything else, really. But being grateful? Again, for what?

I'd love to hear what coyotegrey has to say about that

ZakKa89
29th Mar 2011, 21:25
Yet another one who doesn't understand the point of a discussion forum.

This should be copypasta material by now

Ashpolt
29th Mar 2011, 21:25
Come on be realistic, what game nowadays is not made like this? Gaming is a business now not some niche market run for an elite few.

Going for maximum sales may be realistic. but it doesn't mean that we, as consumers, have to take it - or much less defend it. When musicians start making music designed to appeal to the largest possible crowd, it makes business sense, but it's labelled as "selling out" and is widely criticised - why does the gaming industry not get the same treatment? Why are we so much more willing to allow the industry to screw us over for the sake of a few extra dollars?

TrickyVein
29th Mar 2011, 21:27
I'm going to say that you can't upgrade your Shepard as much or in as many different ways as you can with JC.

Take into account the class restrictions which limit what armor, weapons, and abilities that are available to you. There is no equivalent augmentation system.

TrickyVein
29th Mar 2011, 21:29
Going for maximum sales may be realistic. but it doesn't mean that we, as consumers, have to take it - or much less defend it. When musicians start making music designed to appeal to the largest possible crowd, it makes business sense, but it's labelled as "selling out" and is widely criticised - why does the gaming industry not get the same treatment? Why are we so much more willing to allow the industry to screw us over for the sake of a few extra dollars?

There are very little non-mainstream, "underground" kind of games being produced that I'm aware of that parallel this kind of trend in music where small time musicians can get heard.

Tristram Shandy
29th Mar 2011, 21:30
Going for maximum sales may be realistic. but it doesn't mean that we, as consumers, have to take it - or much less defend it. When musicians start making music designed to appeal to the largest possible crowd, it makes business sense, but it's labelled as "selling out" and is widely criticised - why does the gaming industry not get the same treatment? Why are we so much more willing to allow the industry to screw us over for the sake of a few extra dollars?

So all artists are bound for life to the will of the few people who liked the work at the start? They're not screwing you over, they don't owe you anything. Making art that someone likes does not put someone into a contract that obliges the artist to keep that person entertained for the rest of their life. You don't like it, you don't buy it, go enjoy something else, there's no bargain for them to uphold.

BigBoss
29th Mar 2011, 21:32
Yet another one who doesn't understand the point of a discussion forum.

This should be copypasta material by now

What? I'm not saying Kyle should ban him or take the comment down, I honestly want to hear what he would say

K^2
29th Mar 2011, 21:33
Have you ever played a table RPG? Deus Ex had RPG elements as sherely nominal as Mass Effect (I.e. Extened no further than a few weapons skills) . I don't think many of the hardcore PC RPGs can be compared with table RPGs for depth, let alone almost-RPGs like Deus Ex.
I'm one of the people who complained that D&D 3.0/3.5 was over-simplified. (Don't get me started on 4.0). But this is very different. Deus Ex is not an RPG game. It takes enough RPG elements to allow player flexibility and goes with it. This is very different from Mass Effect, where I basically have the same options for each character, with slightly different visuals. Deus Ex took a minimal set of weapon and ammo variations to fit each game style. A minimal set of skills needed to fit each style. A minimum set of augmentations to fit each style. It then allowed you to complement these to hand-tailor the character you needed, all within 3-5 gradations of each, to make sure it fits the "short", by RPG standards, game. That doesn't make a true RPG game, but it does give you the right mechanic to explore the environment.

Mass Effect, in contrast, second one in particular, is basically a rail shooter, so you only need a certain type of character to get through it, and that's what you are given.


Nor does anyone force you to play HR, what's your point?
My point was rather that with food I have other options. With games, it's just a choice of which fast food place I get my burger from. They even offer me fries, in form of DLC.

TrickyVein
29th Mar 2011, 21:40
So all artists are bound for life to the will of the few people who liked the work at the start? They're not screwing you over, they don't owe you anything. Making art that someone likes does not put someone into a contract that obliges the artist to keep that person entertained for the rest of their life. You don't like it, you don't buy it, go enjoy something else, there's no bargain for them to uphold.

Both the consumer and the producer should be bound to the quality of the product, in this case, good music. Otherwise, it's called selling out.

Pretentious Old Man.
29th Mar 2011, 21:41
^^Where would DRM fit into that analogy, K^2? Do MacDonalds reserve the right to pump your stomache after you've eaten the burger? :D

I'll get my coat.

BlackFox
29th Mar 2011, 21:45
Going for maximum sales may be realistic. but it doesn't mean that we, as consumers, have to take it - or much less defend it. When musicians start making music designed to appeal to the largest possible crowd, it makes business sense, but it's labelled as "selling out" and is widely criticised - why does the gaming industry not get the same treatment? Why are we so much more willing to allow the industry to screw us over for the sake of a few extra dollars?

A good point well made. (Damn this actually looks like an intelligent forum, can it be true?!)

I'm afraid as long as we live in a capital world, then we will always have to "take it". Nothing is made or produced for the consumer without the bottom line being the prime driving force in producing it in the first place. Nobody does these things free willingly out of the shear "love" of the product. Maybe it would be a better world if it did, but its again unrealistic.

If you feel they are "selling out", and we dont really know untill we try the thing, then there will be plenty of feedback from users and other sources that will surely let you form an opinion as to wether you feel you are being ripped off with your hard earned cash.

Maybe they just wanted to try new things, to push boundries, evolve the Deus Ex franchise, maybe somethings will work and others not but at least they are willing to give it another try. Perhaps some things will be percieved as "selling out" maybe some will be percieved as "revolutionary".

Pretentious Old Man.
29th Mar 2011, 21:46
Both the consumer and the producer should be bound to the quality of the product, in this case, good music. Otherwise, it's called selling out.

I don't like this music analogy at all (partly due to my distaste for virtually all modern music, and inability to tell good modern song from a bad one, but just roll with it). For one thing, who is the supreme arbiter of music? If Katy Perry wrote a violin concerto, her fanbase would probably either deem her a sellout and buy from other artists, or they would just buy the violin concerto due to hype. Remember, we don't really have gaming "celebrities" in the same way that music does, that sells games (see Warren Spector/Epic Mickey and Richard Garriot/Tabula Rasa)

I think that it should be compulsory that games release a pre-release demo and a certain amount of uncut footage, so that developers can do what they want on the one hand, but consumers can see what they're buying on the other. Everybody wins. But I would be very reticent to slur all development of games with the same brush, since lack of developer creativity is what got us in the present mess in the first place.

Ashpolt
29th Mar 2011, 21:46
So all artists are bound for life to the will of the few people who liked the work at the start?

Not even remotely what I said, and if you're going to misunderstand one post I make so wildly, I won't bother explaining why because you'll just do the same thing again.

Tristram Shandy
29th Mar 2011, 21:51
Both the consumer and the producer should be bound to the quality of the product, in this case, good music. Otherwise, it's called selling out.

Quality is entirely subjective, so you can't really base someones obligations on it. Unless you claim that your own tastes are the be all end all of judgement, the only way to judge quality is by how many people like it. So in that case, "selling out" to make more people like it can be said to make the music better


I'm one of the people who complained that D&D 3.0/3.5 was over-simplified. (Don't get me started on 4.0). But this is very different. Deus Ex is not an RPG game. It takes enough RPG elements to allow player flexibility and goes with it. This is very different from Mass Effect, where I basically have the same options for each character, with slightly different visuals.

That's the old No True Scotsman fallacy, ME doesn't have adequate RPG elemst becuase you say it doesn't, and nothing you don't want DX compared to will.

An action-RPG is an action-RPG, regardless of arbitrary qualifications of what makes them differ.

TrickyVein
29th Mar 2011, 21:51
Hmm.

I'm going to be a bit of dick, POM, and say that there should be absolutes on what qualifies good music from bad. And that involves a certain vision and dedication of the musician to his craft that both he and the listener should be able to identify.

I can appreciate that kind of quality in music, in a performer, even if I don't agree with the particular sound.

ZakKa89
29th Mar 2011, 21:52
What? I'm not saying Kyle should ban him or take the comment down, I honestly want to hear what he would say

I am just talking about the new poster who tells us "What's the point of discussing a game you haven't bought'
It was a direct reaction to that, sorry should've been more clear.

Reven
29th Mar 2011, 21:57
If Katy Perry wrote a violin concerto, her fanbase would probably either deem her a sellout and buy from other artists, or they would just buy the violin concerto due to hype.

If Katy Perry wrote anything worth listening to then her "fans" would consider her a sellout anyway.

Pretentious Old Man.
29th Mar 2011, 22:00
Hmm.

I'm going to be a bit of dick, POM, and say that there should be absolutes on what qualifies good music from bad. And that involves a certain vision and dedication of the musician to his craft that both he and the listener should be able to identify.

I can appreciate that kind of quality in music, in a performer, even if I don't agree with the particular sound.

See, I don't believe you can do that. For example, I regard this as a work of genius:

HQal-lJrSLI

And this as a work of trash

QGJuMBdaqIw

Now, you might well argue that other factors sell song. (like the fact that Perry is blatant eye candy, for example). This is true, but then, objectively, I have to confess that the sheer awesomeness of Hank Marvin and poignancy of Roy Orbison are part of the reason why I like these artists. If people want to like Perry because she's hot, well, I wouldn't approve of them, but I can't objectively prove that the music does not in some way move them.

K^2
29th Mar 2011, 22:00
That's the old No True Scotsman fallacy, ME doesn't have adequate RPG elemst becuase you say it doesn't, and nothing you don't want DX compared to will.

An action-RPG is an action-RPG, regardless of arbitrary qualifications of what makes them differ.
After I've already said that Deus Ex isn't an RPG either, this is kind of a pointless argument.

Let me put it in the simplest way possible. In Deus Ex, exploring environment consists of more than checking out a side room in the corridor you are following, and tactics consist of more than choosing whether to enter the obvious ambush from the left or the right.

Deus Ex' "RPG" elements are designed around these factors.

BlackFox
29th Mar 2011, 22:03
If Katy Perry wrote anything worth listening to then her "fans" would consider her a sellout anyway.

Ah but why?

Becuase the quality of her music had gone down?

Or that her music had improved and was liked by a bigger populas and therefore her "fans" no longer felt part of a cool, elite club that not everyone was a part of?

If Deus Ex HR is a critical and financial success is it therefore "selling out"?

Tristram Shandy
29th Mar 2011, 22:05
I am just talking about the new poster who tells us "What's the point of discussing a game you haven't bought'
It was a direct reaction to that, sorry should've been more clear.

I never asked what's the point in discussing agame that isn't out, I'm asking whats the point in discussing a game which you have no intention of buying when it does come out? As the poll indicates is the position of many posters.

K^2
29th Mar 2011, 22:08
And what is the point of discussing a game you are buying anyways?

P.S. I'm also not interested in going over to Japan to work on earthquake relief or over to Libya to fight against Gadaffi's forces. But that doesn't stop me from discussing these either. I guess, I just like talking about disasters.

Reven
29th Mar 2011, 22:09
Ah but why?

Becuase the quality of mer music had gone down?

Or that her music had improved and was liked by a bigger populas and therefore her "fans" no longer felt part of a cool, elite club that not everyone was a part of?

If Deus Ex HR is a critical and financial success is it therefore "selling out"?

Its only a sellout if it sells out its ideas. as for katy perry i will say what most people in europe say. "Who the feck is katy perry ?"

Pretentious Old Man.
29th Mar 2011, 22:13
Its only a sellout if it sells out its ideas. as for katy perry i will say what most people in europe say. "Who the feck is katy perry ?"

Substitute "Who the" for "Can I" and you're about right there.

EDIT: Oh and remove the "is". This joke has become rather laboured, I shall beat a hasty retreat.

Tristram Shandy
29th Mar 2011, 22:14
And what is the point of discussing a game you are buying anyways?

Becuase when the game does come out, my life will have changed very slightly as I will be playing a new game, and I want to ponder how this change will go. If you don't buy the game, nothing will have changed for you whatsoever, so why discuss nothing happening?

You can hardly compare discussing world events to discussing computer games, Earthquakes in developed nations and civil wars with foreign intervention have a lot more indirect impact on life and history than the release of a toy.

BlackFox
29th Mar 2011, 22:16
And what is the point of discussing a game you are buying anyways?


(Ah thats a nice easy one)

To pass the time before it's release!!

BlackFox
29th Mar 2011, 22:20
Substitute "Who the" for "Can I" and you're about right there.

EDIT: Oh and remove the "is". This joke has become rather laboured, I shall beat a hasty retreat.

Ouch, I really should post something like "epic fail" to be down with the kids.

But I would feel like an absolute *** in doing so, I kind of want to help you through this difficult post and move on to better times.

You have my sympothies you really do:flowers:

Pretentious Old Man.
29th Mar 2011, 22:21
Becuase when the game does come out, my life will have changed very slightly as I will be playing a new game, and I want to ponder how this change will go. If you don't buy the game, nothing will have changed for you whatsoever, so why discuss nothing happening?

You can hardly compare discussing world events to discussing computer games, Earthquakes in developed nations and civil wars with foreign intervention have a lot more indirect impact on life and history than the release of a toy.

So basically you're saying that games can never be art?

Some people would say that Katy Perry can never be music. I agree, but it is subjective, whether or not one listens to Katy Perry, and indeed "music" that is similar to that of Katy Perry.

Tristram Shandy
29th Mar 2011, 22:27
So basically you're saying that games can never be art?

No, I'm simply saying that ther is more gravitas to discussing current affairs than there is to discussing art. I know it seems that way when I refer to games as "toys", but I do see them as toys, but that is not to say a toy cannot be a great work of art. All art is pretty mucha toy, a diversion from life.

K^2
29th Mar 2011, 22:28
Becuase when the game does come out, my life will have changed very slightly as I will be playing a new game, and I want to ponder how this change will go. If you don't buy the game, nothing will have changed for you whatsoever, so why discuss nothing happening?
Why, I'd be able to come back and enjoy posting "I told you so" comments. That would also make a slight change in my life. I might even enjoy that slightly more than some people will enjoy the game. At least, it worked out for a lot of people on IS forums. I missed out back then. I was one of the optimistic suckers until IW got released.


You can hardly compare discussing world events to discussing computer games, Earthquakes in developed nations and civil wars with foreign intervention have a lot more indirect impact on life and history than the release of a toy.
I'm interested in working in game development. Release of any game has much more impact on my life than an earthquake in another country.

TrickyVein
29th Mar 2011, 22:28
See, I don't believe you can do that.

OK, POM. 'Scuse me for a moment.

I have a really tough time with this kind of stuff.

Ever since I read: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5187VZ5EZ4L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

and: http://img.amazon.ca/images/I/41FWhmVlAJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

I've been fighting with the idea of what makes quality objective or subjective for a while now. I find there are less contradictions when you take the objective approach. If I say there is a definitive "good" music, I do not necessarily imply that I know what that "good" music is, or that it is even knowable.

I'm not saying this because I can't admit that I'm wrong, I probably am. I just can't completely agree with the idea that "all art is in the eye of the beholder" or that "all music is subjective." There IS something there, whether it appeals to everyone because we are all human, are built more or less at some base level, or are linked into some kind of collective, Jungian consciousness. I don't know. But I do know that I'm not comfortable with saying that Katy Perry could possibly make "good" music. :)

Pretentious Old Man.
29th Mar 2011, 22:29
No, I'm simply saying that ther is more gravitas to discussing current affairs than there is to discussing art. I know it seems that way when I refer to games as "toys", but I do see them as toys, but that is not to say a toy cannot be a great work of art. All art is pretty mucha toy, a diversion from life.

I see. You are absolutely right in that this does not compare with, say, the nuclear blast in Japan, and when people view games with such entitlement and attach such importance to them then it is truly a shameful display. However, I still think one should be able to dissect trends/patterns in the industry, as we are indeed doing now.

Pretentious Old Man.
29th Mar 2011, 22:35
OK, POM. 'Scuse me for a moment.

I have a really tough time with this kind of stuff.

Ever since I read: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5187VZ5EZ4L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

and: http://img.amazon.ca/images/I/41FWhmVlAJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

I've been fighting with the idea of what makes quality objective or subjective for a while now. I find there are less contradictions when you take the objective approach. If I say there is a definitive "good" music, I do not necessarily imply that I know what that "good" music is, or that it is even knowable.

I'm not saying this because I can't admit that I'm wrong, I probably am. I just can't completely agree with the idea that "all art is in the eye of the beholder" or that "all music is subjective." There IS something there, whether it appeals to everyone because we are all human, are built more or less at some base level, or are linked into some kind of collective, Jungian consciousness. I don't know. But I do know that I'm not comfortable with saying that Katy Perry could possibly make "good" music. :)

I have to respectfully disagree. For ME (and apparently, for you too) Katy Perry could not possibly make good music, since it is lowest common denominator, three-four chord nonsense with highly cynical committee designed lyrics. All this is true. Having just finished writing a symphony myself (purely a vanity project, but one that I take great pride and care in), I totally understand what you are saying.

However, I cannot deny that, to millions, Katy Perry and her music represent something genuinely moving. Just watch the screaming hordes at her concerts. Clearly, she must be able to elicit SOME reaction from them. This signifies to me that, grudgingly, whether it is the hype machine or what, these people regard her music as something that can uplift them. That qualifies it, subjectively, as art, and there's nothing either of us can do about it.

TrickyVein
29th Mar 2011, 22:45
KP aside, being tongue in cheek, it is possible for large numbers of people to all be wrong.

GBush was re-elected. That many people can't all be wrong, could they? ;)

I get what you're saying, and I think it sucks, that to so many people, then, what they believe they are experiencing IS art, "good," and musical, and so practically, I would have to concede.

Because that is the level at which we operate and experience life: in practice. Not somewhere up in the clouds where you can debate things like quality and subjective vs. objective experiences. Thanks for reminding me of that. :thumb:

Tristram Shandy
29th Mar 2011, 22:46
Why, I'd be able to come back and enjoy posting "I told you so" comments.

Well, I'm sure as hell not posting on here after HR comes out, so you'll not fall upon my ears.


I'm interested in working in game development. Release of any game has much more impact on my life than an earthquake in another country.

Not if you change your mind about your career, and the effect the release of one game has on a developer before his career begins is hardly a tangible one. The implications of an earthquake, however, in a mass exporter will affect the economic state of your country regardless.

BlackFox
29th Mar 2011, 22:49
Admit it though, we all listened to "Firework" and have it stuck in our head now.

Nope just me......................

Pretentious Old Man.
29th Mar 2011, 22:53
KP aside, being tongue in cheek, it is possible for large numbers of people to all be wrong.

"Katy Perry represents the pinnacle of musical evolvement through the generations, including the most advanced symbiosis of tonality, modulations, harmony, melody, counter-melody, instrumentation and word-painting" is just factually wrong.

"Katy Perry's music makes me feel better" is wholly subjective, though. Ultimately, surely the technical detail is subordinate to emotions invoked?

K^2
29th Mar 2011, 22:56
Well, I'm sure as hell not posting on here after HR comes out, so you'll not fall upon my ears.
See? I'm feeling better already. And you said I had no reason to stick around.


Not if you change your mind about your career, and the effect the release of one game has on a developer before his career begins is hardly a tangible one. The implications of an earthquake, however, in a mass exporter will affect the economic state of your country regardless.
I'm a top notch programmer, I have detailed understanding of every aspect of a game engine. I am proficient with optimization problems, AI, physics, and rendering techniques. I've studied game theory. I've been playing games since early 90's. With this background I can go into finance, academia, or game development. The first to would bore me to death. The later is actually something I can have fun doing. Why would I change my mind?

The state of economy of my country, however, has virtually no impact on me. But good try.

Tristram Shandy
29th Mar 2011, 23:00
is wholly subjective, though. Ultimately, surely the technical detail is subordinate to emotions invoked?

Absoloutley! Art has no purpose than to inspire emotion, for such is what differentiates a well made piece of art from a well made piece of engineering!

If we start to judge artistic value on technical achievement, then I could say the Forth Rail Bridge is a better work of art than Picasso's Guernica. Sure it's probably harder to make a cantilever bridge then a cubist painting, but the Forth inspires nothing in me, Guernica however, makes me feel.

Pretentious Old Man.
29th Mar 2011, 23:03
I'm a top notch programmer, I have detailed understanding of every aspect of a game engine. I am proficient with optimization problems, AI, physics, and rendering techniques. I've studied game theory. I've been playing games since early 90's. With this background I can go into finance, academia, or game development.

Cool story, bro. But I have a friend who is an expert in top-notch programming, so I just need to consult him before we go any further.


The state of economy of my country, however, has virtually no impact on me. But good try.

Yes, because the state of the domestic economy has no effect on videogame sales and thus by proxy the number of developers being employed at any given juncture.

I'm sorry K^2, but that post just came across as petulant and ignorant. I admit that I'm a little miffed by your dismissal of the Japanese earthquake, but c'mon, no need to further knock down the importance of a recession that has impacted tens of millions of lives, and could well do yours. That's just tasteless.

TrickyVein
29th Mar 2011, 23:04
^^ Now that's interesting.

John Cage might say the exact opposite. Composing with a 12 sided die, or engineering sounds into a piece of software that returns melodies and harmonies -

The resolution of tension, a tritone that resolves inwards to complete the move from a dominant seventh back to tonic, the root movement of a fourth -

these are very technical relationships between sound that Bach thought provided the basis for what IS, objectively, good music. There are kinds of sounds that I think every human would agree are dissonant, and sound like they need to move to a certain sonic sphere. There is a reason why the I - IV - V - I progression is so predominantly used in modern music. It sounds good.

I think experience, and familiarity with certain kinds of sounds also plays a key role. Most of what I talk about here applies only to Western music. There is a history of being familiar with that kind of tonality that dictates what kinds of sounds we expect to hear. It is different across the world.

Tristram Shandy
29th Mar 2011, 23:07
The state of economy of my country, however, has virtually no impact on me. But good try.

You beleive that, yet you beleive you could have a career in finance? No wonder the 2007 recession happened if that's how our financiers think, but then again, you probably didn't notice, what with the economy having so little impact on you.

K^2
29th Mar 2011, 23:11
Yes, because the state of the domestic economy has no effect on videogame sales and thus by proxy the number of developers being employed at any given juncture.
Actually, very little. Entertainment industry is one of the best at maintaining profit during recession. And even if the economy collapses completely, I'd be one of the last people to be hit.


I'm sorry K^2, but that post just came across as petulant and ignorant. I admit that I'm a little miffed by your dismissal of the Japanese earthquake, but c'mon, no need to further knock down the importance of a recession that has impacted tens of millions of lives, and could well do yours. That's just tasteless.
We are talking about personal impact. All of these things make none on me. I'm not saying I'm not sympathetic. But as far as actual changes in my life, these things didn't make any.

You beleive that, yet you beleive you could have a career in finance? No wonder the 2007 recession happened if that's how our financiers think, but then again, you probably didn't notice, what with the economy having so little impact on you.
I haven't. My income has increased by nearly 50% since 2007, and my work load has decreased. I also moved to a nicer apartment. If I didn't read the news, I wouldn't be aware of the recession at all.

Pretentious Old Man.
29th Mar 2011, 23:15
^^ Now that's interesting.

John Cage might say the exact opposite. Composing with a 12 sided die, or engineering sounds into a piece of software that returns melodies and harmonies -

The resolution of tension, a tritone that resolves inwards to complete the move from a dominant seventh back to tonic, the root movement of a fourth -

these are very technical relationships between sound that Bach thought provided the basis for what IS, objectively, good music. There are kinds of sounds that I think every human would agree are dissonant, and sound like they need to move to a certain sonic sphere. There is a reason why the I - IV - V - I progression is so predominantly used in modern music. It sounds good.

I think experience, and familiarity with certain kinds of sounds also plays a key role. Most of what I talk about here applies only to Western music. There is a history of being familiar with that kind of tonality that dictates what kinds of sounds we expect to hear. It is different across the world.

BUT THIS IS EXACTLY THE POINT! In the seventeeth century, parallel octaves and fifths were banned, as was the augmented fourth/tritone/"Diabolus in Musica". Why? Incredibly spurious reasons, like music sounding "bare" with parallels, etc. Same with the hatred for chromatic notes in anything pre-20th century. Are there times where chromaticism can be incredible? Absolutely!

In a way, you are arguing for the exact same orthodoxy that brings us the same old CoD games every year, since some big-cheese arbiter like Kotick decides that "objectively" a particular formula is best. This is absurd. I love the baroque period best, personally, but I recognise that this is mainly for reasons of my upbringing, and the fact that I studyed and played music extensively in my youth. For the technically illiterate, talking about perfect cadences , I-IV-V-I chord progressions (especially if you phrase it "Tonic-SubDominant--Dominant-Tonic"), and so forth means nothing. Are they necessarily unable to appreciate music, or feel moved by it?

Tristram Shandy
29th Mar 2011, 23:16
Actually, very little. Entertainment industry is one of the best at maintaining profit during recession. And even if the economy collapses completely, I'd be one of the last people to be hit.

You do realise that all this "consolisation" that forumites bemoan, as well as most of the the trends bemoaned as "the death of gaming" are a direct result of the recession?

Recession happens > People have less dispoable income > People buy less games > Games without mass appeal become unprofitable > Developes try to stay afloat with risk averse design.

The games industry has been HUGELY affected by the recession, plenty of studios have closed, and developers laid off, because of the recessing industry.

Pretentious Old Man.
29th Mar 2011, 23:18
K^2, I merely ask, but do you mind giving an inkling as to what sorts of software you work on? Just curious.

K^2
29th Mar 2011, 23:21
You do realise that all this "consolisation" that forumites bemoan, as well as most of the the trends bemoaned as "the death of gaming" are a direct result of the recession?

Recession happens > People have less dispoable income > People buy less games > Games without mass appeal become unprofitable > Developes try to stay afloat with risk averse design.

The games industry has been HUGELY affected by the recession, plenty of studios have closed, and developers laid off, because of the recessing industry.
Game quality has been on a decline since '99. Unless you are going to suggest that gaming industry leads economic recession, you should cut your losses right now.

Besides, we are talking about a job. I don't mind making cheap console shooters, so long as I don't have to play them, and the total sales have been pretty stable despite economy going into a nose-dive.


K^2, I merely ask, but do you mind giving an inkling as to what sorts of software you work on? Just curious.
Right now? Just stuff for my research. Numerical analysis of this and that. Nothing fun or exciting. A lot of useful techniques, though.

Or do you mean for fun? I have been putting a physics engine together. Works fairly well, but it looks like it's not going to be needed for a while. Also need to finish up the AI for the Eternal Silence guys.

Pretentious Old Man.
29th Mar 2011, 23:25
Game quality has been on a decline since '99. Unless you are going to suggest that gaming industry leads economic recession, you should cut your losses right now.

Really? I would say they peaked around 2004. Deus Ex, Morrowind, Rome: Total War, Operation Flashpoint, Hidden and Dangerous 2, Hitman: Blood Money all these incredible games came out after '99. There have been others, of course, I'm merely picking them out. In fact, apart from stealth games (Thief: the Metal Age), I can't think of one genre that has not actually advanced considerably.

What kind of console shooters are we talking about, when we say you would be happy to make console shooters? I merely ask out of curiosity, partly because I'm curious to see how you define "cheap console shooters" if you think '99 was the pinnacle of gaming... :D

Pretentious Old Man.
29th Mar 2011, 23:28
Also need to finish up the AI for the Eternal Silence guys.

Seriously? I thought that was supposed to be a "revolutionary" AI? That's pretty impressive, if you're working on that. :D

Tristram Shandy
29th Mar 2011, 23:30
Game quality has been on a decline since '99.
Deus Ex wasn't very good then?


Unless you are going to suggest that gaming industry leads economic recession, you should cut your losses right now.

So once something goes into a decline, it cannot be negatively affected by anything? You've made quite a leap of logic from my post to that... bizarre suggestion that my only argument now would be to say that the decline lead to the recession.

Publishers: Well it looks like we need to make more populist titles in order to remain profitable.
Developers: Never mind that! We've been too busy "declining" for the last 8 years to change our output!

And bloody hell, If you have that much disdain for the industry I'd probably chase the finance pipedream if I were you.

K^2
29th Mar 2011, 23:31
That's the thing. After '99, we are starting to pick at exceptions. Before, good games were not so easily numerable. That's not to say that bad games weren't a majority even back then, but there were still more great games than I had time to play, and I had considerably more time.

Also, not all of the games from back then aged well. Still, I find more games that I feel the same way about replaying them now than I find games that lost their spark.

Basically... Any shooter on a console is a cheap console shooter. The last good shooter I played on a console was 8 bit.


Deus Ex wasn't very good then?
Honestly, how am I supposed to argue with a person that tries to use that as an argument against a trend?

So once something goes into a decline, it cannot be negatively affected by anything? You've made quite a leap of logic from my post to that... bizarre suggestion that my only argument now would be to say that the decline lead to the recession.
Your evidence for effect is the decline of the game quality. I tell you that decline happened earlier, so unless you think gaming industry starts to suffer economic problems before everyone else, you are not making a strong argument.

Yes, of course, it could be affected still. Do you have evidence to suggest that game quality has declined faster after recession? No? Moving on.


Seriously? I thought that was supposed to be a "revolutionary" AI? That's pretty impressive, if you're working on that.
Erm. I guess I'm glad to hear the guys have such good faith in me.

Pretentious Old Man.
29th Mar 2011, 23:37
I think it's just a personal circumstance thing. Mechanically, the medium has become significantly more sophisticated since then. I don't know what your personal goal from games and gaming is, but for me, it's verisimilitude in escapism, and by extension immersion. Thus, I like all my games to be as mechanically accurate as possible. Suffice it to say that in this, games like ArmaII are able to be far in advance of games like quake and doom, and indeed the original rainbow six. Sprite-based gameplay and isometric engines were always about trickery and falsehood, and there's no getting round that. At least physics engines try and simulate real life. Design might have regressed, but CAPACITY is light years ahead.

Saying that, my favourite RPG ever is from 1993, but that's only because no-one ever bothered to surpass it, not because it could not have been surpassed many times over (I'm still waiting for that Darklands sequel...:( ) I suppose the same is true of Deus Ex. But I think it's just wrong to set the cut-off at '99.

Tristram Shandy
29th Mar 2011, 23:41
Honestly, how am I supposed to argue with a person that tries to use that as an argument against a trend?

Well I assumed you thought Deus Ex was good considering your 3000 or so posts on its forums, so saying it comes from an era in which produced sub-par games seems to be in contradiction to what you stand for.


Do you have evidence to suggest that game quality has declined faster after recession? No? Moving on.

Do you have evidence to suggest that game quality has declined at all? No? Moving on.

K^2
29th Mar 2011, 23:48
POM, the tech has improved, so yes, in terms of escapism, the games have improved greatly. But a game, at its core, is not about escapism. It's, well, a game. A set of goals to be achieved following certain rules.

I suspect, the only possible outcome is a split between the two media. At some point, you have to choose whether you are giving a player a story and an environment to escape into, or if you want to put player in a cage and give him a challenge.

I do enjoy both directions in different ways. And there are plenty of games I have enjoyed because of their environment. Almost all of them happened after '99. But I grew up on games. Games that made me work hard to advance. I miss that. Gaming industry has been on a decline since '99. What we are seeing afterwards is emergence of a new medium that's causing industry serious pains as they try to separate.

Edit:

Well I assumed you thought Deus Ex was good considering your 3000 or so posts on its forums, so saying it comes from an era in which produced sub-par games seems to be in contradiction to what you stand for.
http://rankbuilder.com/images/dot.jpg
- This picture is mostly white.
- But that black dot in the middle clearly contradicts your point!

The fact that I had to resort to props and dialogs is just sad.


Do you have evidence to suggest that game quality has declined at all? No? Moving on.
Suits me. Since my point was about economy not having an effect, you aren't helping yourself.

Tristram Shandy
30th Mar 2011, 00:09
I don't think you understand what contradiction is, judging by the surreal diagram. When you take a position:

DXHR is bad becuase it's not like DX (Circa 2000), which is good!

Then make a statement mutually exclusive to that:

Games Circa 2000 are bad!

THAT is contradiction and it cheapens your argument.

I've read and reread your post and it makes absoloutley no sense.


Suits me. Since my point was about economy not having an effect, you aren't helping yourself

That is a triumphant failure of logic

Prima: You've no evidence for your claims!
Secunda: You've no eveidence for YOUR claims!
Prima: MY CLAIMS REQUIRE NO EVIDENCE HAHA!

It's like arguing with a brick wall. You've come up with a response there which invalidates your previous point about me not having evidence to back up my claims about the recession, by acting as if there is no requirement for evidence in anyones claims. This is an exercise in futility, so long and goodnight!

TrickyVein
30th Mar 2011, 00:11
...but I recognise that this is mainly for reasons of my upbringing, and the fact that I studyed and played music extensively in my youth.

I didn't mean to be excluding people on the basis that they were unfamiliar with that kind notation. That was not my intention. It served to illustrate what I was trying to get at - you asked if the emotional aspects of music come before the technical understanding of how it works (right?)

I would argue that "emotional depth" or any one person's subjective enjoyment of music is a function of its technicality. There are real relationships between sounds which dictate what sounds better or worse to people, and it's the combination of what we expect to hear, are comfortable with, are surprised by that brings us the best listening experiences.

What those relationships are is dictated by experience and culture. I am completely unfamiliar with semitones, and yet a large part of the world's population can distinguish between them.

K^2
30th Mar 2011, 00:24
DXHR is bad becuase it's not like DX (Circa 2000), which is good!
I'm just going to fiat this one, because I don't feel like arguing and repeating everything again. That's not why it's bad, but whatever. Lets just say it is for the sake of argument.


Then make a statement mutually exclusive to that:

Games Circa 2000 are bad!
Compare: "Games have been on decline since '99" vs "Games Circa 2000 are bad!"


THAT is contradiction and it cheapens your argument.
Learn what a contradiction is.


Prima: You've no evidence for your claims!
Secunda: You've no eveidence for YOUR claims!
Prima: MY CLAIMS REQUIRE NO EVIDENCE HAHA!
I did not make the claim. The industry's revenue has been steady. You've dragged in a tangent about game quality. So yeah, lacking a claim, I do not require evidence.

Whatever you are drinking, stop.

BigBoss
30th Mar 2011, 00:32
I'm a top notch programmer, I have detailed understanding of every aspect of a game engine. I am proficient with optimization problems, AI, physics, and rendering techniques. I've studied game theory. I've been playing games since early 90's. With this background I can go into finance, academia, or game development.

But do you have a degree in any kind of financial accounting or Business financing? Oh right you're a Ph.D. candidate in theoretical particle physics, (but still working towards your first publication) and are proficient in relativity (mostly special), quantum mechanics, and field theory as well as being top notch in pure and computational mathematics. All at the ripe age of 25.:D

I'm sorry, but either you're gods gift to this earth having time to post daily on this forum, let alone master AI and developing physics engines, (things that companies hire specialists to lead small teams for) while at school for a Ph.D. in one of the most complicated areas of study offered, as well as mastery of other fields others take decades to master.......or you're slightly reaching past your grasp of credibility:whistle:

Seriously man. Somethings gotta give.

K^2
30th Mar 2011, 00:46
High intellect, good memory, good Soviet schooling, and very little social life. These things do add up.

If you'd like, I can post references on most of that. This (http://www.kent.edu/CAS/Physics/people/gradstudents.cfm) is the list of graduate students at my dept. I'm right there in the 07/08 batch. Name's Konstantin. What else? I can probably find some info on my REU research, showing that I've done work in scientific visualization as far back as, what was it, 05?

The only one you'd have to wait on is AI, but I'm hoping that the code I have will go live on ES servers soon enough, so you'd be able to see even that for yourself.


things that companies hire specialists to lead small teams for
Yeah, I'm always shocked that they do all that, and still manage to screw up such simple things. Hence I'm thinking it'd be a nice career. It's something I do anyways, it's something I can do without much effort, and it's something I can get payed good money for.

Shaltiar
30th Mar 2011, 02:43
You're Sheldon Cooper?

K^2
30th Mar 2011, 03:14
Heh. I don't really have any OCD tendencies, and I'm not quite that antisocial. But you'll probably save yourself some time if you start with that archetype and sift out the differences, yeah.

I'm also not a safety freak. Rock climbing, flying, fast driving. My sort of fun.

BigBoss
30th Mar 2011, 03:48
And I'll bet you're an expert on those things too.

P.S. If you are rock climbing properly, you technically become more safe the higher you get. Unless you're using a rope that is.

K^2
30th Mar 2011, 04:04
Nah. I'm pretty terrible at rock climbing. Top-rope only. But I enjoy it anyways. As far as flying, I can land a Cessna. That's pretty much the limit of my abilities at this point. I want to get the hours for the license, but it's a bit of a pain without citizenship.

Shralla
30th Mar 2011, 04:11
The only one you'd have to wait on is AI, but I'm hoping that the code I have will go live on ES servers soon enough, so you'd be able to see even that for yourself.

You mean Eternal Silence, right? I forgot you were the one here who worked on that game. I'm interested to know what the bots will end up like, though I have a feeling that it won't even come close to the thrill you get from dogfighting a live player. Still though, perhaps servers being more constantly populated in conjunction with tutorials will get more people to stick around.

K^2
30th Mar 2011, 04:16
Actually, the dog fight itself should be pretty good. I'm more concerned with team dynamics. Individual ship AI is just optimal control. I can make them predict your movements using a record of your previous maneuvers and shoot you down with nearly 100% accuracy. I'll have to find a way to tone it down to simulate human error, if anything. But even with perfect AI, two human players can lure it into a trap and do nasty things to it, so I'd need AIs working as a team to prevent such things. Not to mention such basic things as fighters looking after the bombers and transports. That's where the real challenge is.

Frog
30th Mar 2011, 20:06
Most definitely!

While DX1 was better, I still played and really enjoyed Invisible War completing it 4 times.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
31st Mar 2011, 21:50
Most definitely!

While DX1 was better, I still played and really enjoyed Invisible War completing it 4 times.

^

Did you like the Omar?
If so, good to hear it. I shall be happy to award you with preferred customer status. :cool:

Frog
1st Apr 2011, 02:01
^

Did you like the Omar?
If so, good to hear it. I shall be happy to award you with preferred customer status. :cool:
Of course!

jamhaw
4th Apr 2011, 03:22
I am beginning to think that I may not purchase this game. I keep getting disappointed by what they are telling us, and I think that the pre-order bonuses look like a ripoff. Additionally I still have not figured out how to purchase them in Canada and I feel that if I will not get the whole DX III experience why should I spend my hard earned money on the game? I may get this game a year or two from now after it has been patched up and in the bargain bin but that is about it. Which is a shame, as I have been looking forward to this game for years.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Apr 2011, 09:28
Of course!

Noted.
You will get special customer service now. ;)



I am beginning to think that I may not purchase this game. I keep getting disappointed by what they are telling us, and I think that the pre-order bonuses look like a ripoff. Additionally I still have not figured out how to purchase them in Canada and I feel that if I will not get the whole DX III experience why should I spend my hard earned money on the game? I may get this game a year or two from now after it has been patched up and in the bargain bin but that is about it. Which is a shame, as I have been looking forward to this game for years.

Disappointed by what EM are telling you, or from what others are telling you?
Why are the pre-order bonuses a rip-off?
Just asking for more details so I can understand what you are saying. :)

Walmart offer the game in Canada, afaik.

More details in this thread:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=115011

jd10013
4th Apr 2011, 11:46
^

Did you like the Omar?
If so, good to hear it. I shall be happy to award you with preferred customer status. :cool:

the Omar were just another example of the failed potential of that game. in the end, all you really got from them if you befriended them and did their jobs was a black market upgrade canister, at best. But those things were a dime a dozen in the game.

like every other thing/situation in IW, It didn't really matter what you did. and just like with all the other factions, you could treat them one way the entire game but change your mind at the very end.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Apr 2011, 12:28
^
I agree that we didn't get to see much of the Omar.... a wasted potential there. So sad... so very sad. :(
Agree on the rest of your post too, but you're preaching to the choir as far as the game narrative and mechanics go. Despite these flaws, I still enjoyed the game. :)

jd10013
4th Apr 2011, 14:35
^
yea, It was still a good game, though I couldn't force myself through it 4 times. it was just a bit frustrating to see them implement some pretty cool stuff like the Omar and then do absolutely nothing with them.

jamhaw
9th Apr 2011, 17:30
Noted.
You will get special customer service now. ;)




Disappointed by what EM are telling you, or from what others are telling you?
Why are the pre-order bonuses a rip-off?
Just asking for more details so I can understand what you are saying. :)

Walmart offer the game in Canada, afaik.

More details in this thread:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=115011

I think they are a ripoff because I will not be able to have all of the weapons, tools, mission etc. that the developers produced for the game, it looks like I would have to preorder the game twice to get access to both pre-order bonus packs. Additional, I have not been able to figure out how to get a preorder bonus in Canada see http://www.deusex.com/preorder I do not see the Canadian flag anywhere, and it looks like the "EXPLOSIVE MISSION PACK" is not available in through Wal -Mart.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
9th Apr 2011, 18:42
I think they are a ripoff because I will not be able to have all of the weapons, tools, mission etc. that the developers produced for the game, it looks like I would have to preorder the game twice to get access to both pre-order bonus packs. Additional, I have not been able to figure out how to get a preorder bonus in Canada see http://www.deusex.com/preorder I do not see the Canadian flag anywhere, and it looks like the "EXPLOSIVE MISSION PACK" is not available in through Wal -Mart.


It might help explain if I quote this (dated 6 Dec 2010):


Originally Posted by Coyotegrey View Post
Alright I have some news regarding the GameStop exclusive level.

This was originally cut from the game. The content was revived to incentivize pre-order sales. Really, this content wouldn't be there if not for the pre-order element.

Now, we realize some, if not all, want everything for the game. That's why we're looking into providing this content to as many people as we can through some other option. As usual, stay tuned.

As for ordering, have you considered making an international order from participating stores, or even through eBay?
Check first post of this thread for further details:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=115011

TheUnbeholden
26th Apr 2011, 06:33
Really? I would say they peaked around 2004. Deus Ex, Morrowind, Rome: Total War, Operation Flashpoint, Hidden and Dangerous 2, Hitman: Blood Money all these incredible games came out after '99. There have been others, of course, I'm merely picking them out. In fact, apart from stealth games (Thief: the Metal Age), I can't think of one genre that has not actually advanced considerably.

What kind of console shooters are we talking about, when we say you would be happy to make console shooters? I merely ask out of curiosity, partly because I'm curious to see how you define "cheap console shooters" if you think '99 was the pinnacle of gaming... :D



Agreed. I would say Hitman: Blood money is the last game I've played that has really impressed me, and restored my faith in video games in general. Its multi-path solutions (similar to that of Deus Ex) really gives a big broad view of what games are capable in terms of freedom and giving the player tools and allowing them to play how they like using those tools. I think this can summaries it better then I can ....

http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2007/07/01/puzzles-vs-problems/

That and I just get a hard on for contract killing.

Apart from that I thought Fallout 3 was fun (a step up from the complete failure that was Oblivion) But it didn't impress me. Dead Space 1 and 2 gave me something I haven't seen, stomping on aliens & zero gravity, but it didn't impress me as much as I would like to have been. It was light on story, and character development, would have been scarier if people slowly turned in monsters instead of instantaneously.

(on topic) I'm not going to buy it without playing the PC demo.