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Cristiavano
15th Mar 2011, 20:02
Many people have complained about the legend-underworld storyline a couple of times; but will this be the ONE? The one that changes the way you see tomb raider? Crystal started progress at bringing the archaeologist back from the dead in the Legend storyline but the future of tomb raider will change right?

post your thoughts as long as its not another pointless thread thing please :)

Raider126
15th Mar 2011, 22:46
I played the original games back in the mid 90s but I became involved more with the community just after Tomb Raider Legend's release. Back in the 90s she was quite popular, I was very young then but I remember buying cereal boxes until I got the one with the Lara Croft stickers in, she was on Lucozade, adverts, and there was a whole section in a store on my road where they sold Tomb Raider journals.

The second time when I believe that she made her comeback was back with the release of Legend, there wasn't that much in the way of merchandise and I didn't see her everywhere like with the classic games, but she was a big thing.

With the upcoming game, she will probably be even bigger then the Legend return. It's a brand new genre they're trying. It's also a brand new start for the franchise, and I don't think that I have a gaming magazine yet that doesn't mention something about the reboot. You're also probably going to have other game companies looking at what Crystal does and seeing if it will work, Tomb Raider is and was always one of the biggest video game series and so with this much of a change to such a popular brand, there is going to be more attention.

larafan25
15th Mar 2011, 23:03
Crystal Dynamics need to release an inspirational DVD about the future of the Tomb Raider franchise, it will be called "This is it!" and we will get Oprah to present it because she is good at saying This is it!

Error96_
16th Mar 2011, 01:53
I really hope the answer is no on this one. Sorry if that sounds harsh but as a fan from the start I just desperately don't want to see the new pseudo-Lara look persued after this. I hope for a u-turn on that with the context of this game being a one off origins story.

The original TR games were hugely popular. The vast expances of the levels, puzzle solving and the idea of a strong female protagonist was just incredible for it's time. Now there is so much strong competition with Uncharted, PoP etc that I don't see TR get as big as it was. Think Legend was a good reboot and deserved the attention it got and just a pity Underworld didn't really match up.

As to the question of will the new game change my thoughts of TR, I think if Lara looks like Lara then probably yes. If she looks as little like Lara as in the concept art then I would regard this as non cannon and the only opinion of mine that would change is that I would like CD a whole lot less.

larafan25
16th Mar 2011, 15:57
I really hope the answer is no on this one. Sorry if that sounds harsh but as a fan from the start I just desperately don't want to see the new pseudo-Lara look persued after this. I hope for a u-turn on that with the context of this game being a one off origins story.

It won't happen. The only reason Lara has this "Pseudo-Lara look" is because she is a normal women who has decided to go on this journey that will hopefully launch her life of adventure, fame, and treasure. Why would this women board the ship with dual pistols strapped to her legs, short shorts, and a backpack filled with chocolate bars? To scare the crew? Nobody knows where the series goes after this game, it's safe to say CD has a future planned for TR and this is the start. Lara will constantly grow and evolve within this game and the next but the difference between this game and the next is that Lara will now know the dangers that lie ahead. The dangers these ancient crumbling places present. I am also willing to bet that if not in this game than the next, Lara will discover the dangers of greed by surrounding herself with sneaky backstabbing treasure hunters.



The original TR games were hugely popular. The vast expances of the levels, puzzle solving and the idea of a strong female protagonist was just incredible for it's time. Now there is so much strong competition with Uncharted, PoP etc that I don't see TR get as big as it was. Think Legend was a good reboot and deserved the attention it got and just a pity Underworld didn't really match up.

The games you have mentioned do not have a strong female protagonist, and Uncharted is not famous for it's puzzles and expansive levels. TR and POP have coexisted before and fans get a different fix from each game.


As to the question of will the new game change my thoughts of TR, I think if Lara looks like Lara then probably yes. If she looks as little like Lara as in the concept art then I would regard this as non cannon and the only opinion of mine that would change is that I would like CD a whole lot less.

Obviously who am I to judge what you get out of Tomb Raider, however if you care so much about Lara's looks, then why praise the puzzle solving and expansive levels? You praise the strong female protagonist, well it's not her clothing that makes her strong.

I think many people have this gut reaction that CD have de-sexified (made up words) Lara to make her something else. Lara is still sexy, it may take some loosening up to what you consider sexy however she is. Put Lara in rags for her past adventures and she still would have been Lara. She is sexy because she doesn't try, she's not showing up to cocktail parties to flaunt her body, she is showing up to get the artifact she wants.

As for the classic outfit, that's gone. Many have realized, however now what fans are trying to hold onto is the concept of the outfit ie. the backpack, short shorts, tank top, dual pistols, those may be iconic however they do not make Lara Croft. Take away all of those force fed ideas and look at what you made Lara do in the game. Lara was resourceful, smart, and athletic. She doesn't need to show it physically, she needs to use it. Lara's enemies are not going to look at her holstered pistols and back away, it's what she can do with them that counts.

Just an idea. I am willing to bet that you will play TR and fall in love with Lara. However you can't be looking for a stone cold warrior from the moment the ship crashes, you need to go with the flow and then you will be pleasantly surprised by Lara and how she deals with certain situations.

Natla
16th Mar 2011, 18:06
Why isn't Lara in the original games a "strong female protagonist?"

larafan25
16th Mar 2011, 19:45
Why isn't Lara in the original games a "strong female protagonist?"

I thought she was strong.

Ants_27_
16th Mar 2011, 19:57
I think coming back isn't the point and never should. The point should be that 'is this the game Crystal really want to make'... that's the important question.

As a result you'll perhaps have a comeback and increased popularity. So they certainly seem to be more enthusiastic about the new game and I think this is the Tomb Raider they want to create as opposed to the previous.

It makes sense in my head at least.:)

WinterSoldierLTE
16th Mar 2011, 23:21
I thought she was strong.

What I think Error meant by saying "the idea of" is the concept of, which they obviously went through with, not "she wasn't what they made her out to be" or "she's not as good as they say" or anything like that. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Error, but that's how I read it. And he or she is right: at the time, there were no female characters in games like Lara, so she really shook things up and got everyone going "Whoa! Look at her!!" back then.

Denis..
17th Mar 2011, 03:26
comeback?!
i wouldn't say that coz underworld sold a well number of copies but..
what im thinking they r actually doing is giving a good game to compared to the others coming in this year..
but yeah a reboot was needed in order to succeed a great game..
so far legend, anni and underworld were just good games for me, (anni doesn't count its my favourite game ever even more favourite of uncharted 2 lol)
so maybe it is time to say again just like in 90s..that's a great game coz its tr!

Error96_
17th Mar 2011, 03:32
What I think Error meant by saying "the idea of" is the concept of, which they obviously went through with, not "she wasn't what they made her out to be" or "she's not as good as they say" or anything like that. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Error, but that's how I read it. And he or she is right: at the time, there were no female characters in games like Lara, so she really shook things up and got everyone going "Whoa! Look at her!!" back then.

Exactly right. Sorry if I didn't make it clear but what I meant was that in 90's Lara was the best thing out there. It was so inventive in the idea of having such a strong female lead and the scale of the game was like nothing else out there at the time. Now we have have rivals making better games in the same genre as TR's so is going to make the game standing out more difficult.


Obviously who am I to judge what you get out of Tomb Raider, however if you care so much about Lara's looks, then why praise the puzzle solving and expansive levels? You praise the strong female protagonist, well it's not her clothing that makes her strong.

I think many people have this gut reaction that CD have de-sexified (made up words) Lara to make her something else. Lara is still sexy, it may take some loosening up to what you consider sexy however she is.

The reason I care so much about Lara's looks is because the new model is not believeable as a young Lara or compatable with the Lara that has appeared in every other TR game. I look at the concept art and very sadly to me I don't see Lara. Lara's clothing is a expresion of her personality. Lara's look is always on trend, functional and sexy but never trashy. The clothes of the concept art are boring, dull and don't fit with her style at all.

As for desexualising Lara it so clear they have done that and CD execs have admitted it in interviews. The breast reduction for this model goes beyond what can be justified by doing it to make her realistic. I don't think that Lara should be trashy but CD's want to remove all the sex appeal aspect is again something which become out of tune with LC. Accept all these changes and pretty soon more will come till we have nothing of Lara left.


As for the classic outfit, that's gone. Many have realized, however now what fans are trying to hold onto is the concept of the outfit ie. the backpack, short shorts, tank top, dual pistols, those may be iconic however they do not make Lara Croft.

They are series staples I'm much happier when I see those appear in the games. I would always want and would always choose the classic options if they were available so why would CD not let us choose them. They don't all need to be in every game but enough of them to feel like TR. The idea of not having duel pistols at the start is though a clever way to show a weaker Lara for this game but I wouldn't want CD to get the idea not to have them on a perminant basis.


Just an idea. I am willing to bet that you will play TR and fall in love with Lara. However you can't be looking for a stone cold warrior from the moment the ship crashes, you need to go with the flow and then you will be pleasantly surprised by Lara and how she deals with certain situations.

Her personality and skill should be weaker then so I wouldn't expect her to be a warrior. I will fall in love with Lara (like with every TR game) if Lara is there. Based on the concept art and interviews it doesn't look like CD have captured enough of the essence of LC for the character to actually be Lara. seems far enough out to be a game killer. I do really hope I am wrong on that.

larafan25
17th Mar 2011, 17:33
Exactly right. Sorry if I didn't make it clear but what I meant was that in 90's Lara was the best thing out there. It was so inventive in the idea of having such a strong female lead and the scale of the game was like nothing else out there at the time. Now we have have rivals making better games in the same genre as TR's so is going to make the game standing out more difficult.




The reason I care so much about Lara's looks is because the new model is not believeable as a young Lara or compatable with the Lara that has appeared in every other TR game. I look at the concept art and very sadly to me I don't see Lara. Lara's clothing is a expresion of her personality. Lara's look is always on trend, functional and sexy but never trashy. The clothes of the concept art are boring, dull and don't fit with her style at all.

I think the new Lara is believable as a young Lara Croft. She is 21 years old, she looks it. She has a passion for antiquity and the ancient world however she has an untamed wild side. This is clear through the mini bio given in the GI article. Although the bio is (obviously) different, it's a modern take on the original. Lara Croft has been brought up among archaeologists who most likely have respect for ancient sites and share their findings with a wealthy and high class community of Archaeologists. Whereas Lara has a dare devil side of her which cannot be fulfilled merely by excavating ancient sites and spending long hours in laboratories.

As for compatibility, this is a reboot. There has been debate on whether the past few adaptations were a full reboot or just a re-imagining, though this is truly a reboot, the seventh age of Tomb Raider basically. You can either outcast this Lara Croft or go with the flow, however as said before, I'm willing to bet you will fall for her and the universe she inhabits.

As for Lara's looks being on trend, up until AOD Lara was clearly a 90's girl, I'm no stylist however we could at least date the clothing she wore. Crystal Dynamics brought her into modern style and she adopted some American style however still maintained her usual uniform. Honestly it's just part of realism that Lara has lost the symmetrical outfit that truly had become a uniform for her adventures. Now she wears clothing for coverage and protection, her clothing makes sense now and the uniform comes from the tools she must use in game which get strapped on. I don't see a problem with this. Her outfit is definitely not trashy, I mean on behalf of Lara Croft I apologize she couldn't stay clean throughout the shipwreck however the clothing itself is far from trashy. Lara is wearing tank tops and cargo pants, is that not Lara Croft? Here is my challenge, without mentioning preference over colour tell me what Lara Croft would wear when going on a voyage to recover artifacts on the coast of Japan.


As for desexualising Lara it so clear they have done that and CD execs have admitted it in interviews. The breast reduction for this model goes beyond what can be justified by doing it to make her realistic. I don't think that Lara should be trashy but CD's want to remove all the sex appeal aspect is again something which become out of tune with LC. Accept all these changes and pretty soon more will come till we have nothing of Lara left.


Does Lara Croft need large breasts to be sexy though? I'll admit right here and now that there are probably women in the world who have had naturally large breasts similar to Lara's and a body shape which mimics Lara. However CD have toned it down not as a substitute for chemical castration, more as a step to bringing Lara into the real world. It's hard to take Lara seriously when she is what the general public consider hot. There I said it, it's unfortunate however it's the truth. This is a statement being made though, and a good one. Lara Croft can be your average women and still be sexy, what makes her sexy is the fact that she doesn't try. No she is not a bum and she bathes, however she doesn't need to wear tight uncomfortable clothes on adventures to become this femme fatale. Lara Croft gets strength from mind and body, she is fit and athletic and she has intense focus and determination. That is where her strength comes from. However she isn't just a jock, she is smart too, book smart thanks to her upbringing. All this proves is that you can be this wealthy smart girl without being a complete outcast, you can embrace it and not flaunt it either. It's just raw Lara Croft. I see it no other way.



They are series staples I'm much happier when I see those appear in the games. I would always want and would always choose the classic options if they were available so why would CD not let us choose them. They don't all need to be in every game but enough of them to feel like TR. The idea of not having duel pistols at the start is though a clever way to show a weaker Lara for this game but I wouldn't want CD to get the idea not to have them on a perminant basis.

The lack of dual pistols does not make Lara weak, that actually screams a very shallow assumption of everything CD are doing. What makes Lara weak is the fact that she is on foreign territory, she is seriously injured, she is young and unexperienced, as well she is not used to the idea of fighting for her life. So now we know what makes her weak and strong. I'm not sure how CD plan on dishing out the tools in this game however it's clear there is an upgrade system. I bet that as Lara's skill levels increase her accuracy and ability to wield weapons will become better, therefor perhaps she will be able to dual wield. With that said it's also clear that we will not have dual aiming, Tomb Raider is using a new free aim system which adds strategy to combat, it would be near impossible to dual aim with free aim. However that never stopped them from giving Lara dual weapons in the past.

Something I do notice is that the reason people want the dual pistols is merely just for the look of it. People find it appealing to jump around as this lanky women and shoot dual pistols in sleek and stylish combat encounters. Yeah it's appealing however it's not very mature IMO.



Her personality and skill should be weaker then so I wouldn't expect her to be a warrior. I will fall in love with Lara (like with every TR game) if Lara is there. Based on the concept art and interviews it doesn't look like CD have captured enough of the essence of LC for the character to actually be Lara. seems far enough out to be a game killer. I do really hope I am wrong on that.

You will let the lack of a classic outfit kill the game for you? Lara Croft is more than an outfit and more than a pretty girl. I understand why there is such focus on Lara Croft right now given the large changes and being a reboot, however the game is about Tomb Raider too. Exploring these dangerous environments that are far away from civilization and crumble at a touch. Places people are not meant to be in whilst living. I'm sure that will shine through in the coming sequels once Lara's character is cemented and comfortably growing and evolving.

However if all you are missing is an outfit, you will be one of the fans who gets left behind. :/

Natla
17th Mar 2011, 19:01
I think you can still be a TR fan without "keeping up". :)

larafan25
17th Mar 2011, 21:02
I think you can still be a TR fan without "keeping up". :)

You can be a fan of the past games. However if Lara's outfit is going to stop you from playing future games then you will get left behind. The developers have a vision and it's going to be brought to life, they won't revert back just because a bunch of fans miss the size of Lara's boobs and her tight clothes. They knew people would long for the past when making these decisions and they will not give in. At least I can hope.

Ants_27_
17th Mar 2011, 21:32
You can be a fan of the past games. However if Lara's outfit is going to stop you from playing future games then you will get left behind. The developers have a vision and it's going to be brought to life, they won't revert back just because a bunch of fans miss the size of Lara's boobs and her tight clothes. They knew people would long for the past when making these decisions and they will not give in. At least I can hope.

No, I doubt they'll give in with this game. I think Crystal did give in with Underworld, at least in parts and look were it got them a game that was on God knows how many platforms not really selling as great as other franchises that have been around for a similar time frame.

So I think this is really Crystals game as opposed to the fans game. Well a few fans anyway.:)

larafan25
18th Mar 2011, 00:22
No, I doubt they'll give in with this game. I think Crystal did give in with Underworld, at least in parts and look were it got them a game that was on God knows how many platforms not really selling as great as other franchises that have been around for a similar time frame.

So I think this is really Crystals game as opposed to the fans game. Well a few fans anyway.:)

My only worry now I how they are creating the game with so many different player types in mind. Why can't they just make Tomb Raider with intensely complex area designed in vast vertical and horizontal directions. Why can't these places be filled with intense traps that are hidden, whether they are natural or mechanical? Why can't we be forced to explore for the next piece of gameplay?

Now everything is "We've added in these optional things for the hard core fans" honestly, the game should be Tomb Raider and appeal to people who casually play second.

Error96_
18th Mar 2011, 02:23
Wasn't going to get drawn in deeper but here goes. In terms of Lara's bio I actually think it is spot on and true to Lara. It's only Lara's look that is a mess. I don't as misquoted think the classic outfit HAS to appear though it is a bonus if it does. Looking at all her outfits though over the years, including the CD games it is clear Lara cares about BOTH fashion AND functionality. The problem with the new outfit is not that it isn't classic or that is trashy. No it's they couldn't have chosen a look more dull than gray and gray. Lara of any age wouldn't wear something so boring.


Does Lara Croft need large breasts to be sexy though?

No not at all but LC does need large breasts to be Lara croft. She may be more sexy with small breasts but that is not Lara.


However CD have toned it down not as a substitute for chemical castration, more as a step to bringing Lara into the real world. It's hard to take Lara seriously when she is what the general public consider hot. There I said it, it's unfortunate however it's the truth. This is a statement being made though, and a good one. Lara Croft can be your average women and still be sexy, what makes her sexy is the fact that she doesn't try.

It's a scape goat excuse of CD's to blame whatever they can for Lara's lack of connectability. The problem was Lara going into stupid monologues about her parents every 2 minutes in TRA/TRU. Lara personality and looks is what have maintained the series for so long. As for LC being average... no way.


The reason people want the dual pistols is merely just for the look of it. People find it appealing to jump around as this lanky women and shoot dual pistols in sleek and stylish combat encounters.

The Core games had incredible agility with Lara and very fast paced combat with charging enemies and lots of acrobatics. The jump around thing was perfect for those games. The CD version of that combat style doesn't work as well so maybe you are right that it needs a revamp.


My only worry now I how they are creating the game with so many different player types in mind. Why can't they just make Tomb Raider with intensely complex area designed in vast vertical and horizontal directions. Why can't these places be filled with intense traps that are hidden, whether they are natural or mechanical? Why can't we be forced to explore for the next piece of gameplay?

Now everything is "We've added in these optional things for the hard core fans"

Nothing they have done has been to cater to the hardcore fans. In fact the exact opposite. In terms of the vast complex area's it's been CD's choice not to do that. You say you are so against classic TR aspects and yet what you want in level design and exploration sound like a classic TR game.

Is very much fun to see our very different TR perspectives and to debate our different views on the series. I do love how this forum lets us do this.

larafan25
18th Mar 2011, 15:16
Wasn't going to get drawn in deeper but here goes. In terms of Lara's bio I actually think it is spot on and true to Lara. It's only Lara's look that is a mess. I don't as misquoted think the classic outfit HAS to appear though it is a bonus if it does. Looking at all her outfits though over the years, including the CD games it is clear Lara cares about BOTH fashion AND functionality. The problem with the new outfit is not that it isn't classic or that is trashy. No it's they couldn't have chosen a look more dull than gray and gray. Lara of any age wouldn't wear something so boring.

Not that I think it has to do with Lara's choice or preference herself, however I too miss the colour in her wardrobe. I miss that orange shirt from the leaked concept art. It's nice that the grey shirt appears blue and pink in different lighting though, I'm sure it will appear very green in jungle settings. However that is definitely something CD need to change, the lack of colour in Lara's wardrobe.



No not at all but LC does need large breasts to be Lara croft. She may be more sexy with small breasts but that is not Lara.


Then I think everything is just right, her breasts are still big. ust not as big as they used to be, or as big as they were on the TR4 box cover.



It's a scape goat excuse of CD's to blame whatever they can for Lara's lack of connectability. The problem was Lara going into stupid monologues about her parents every 2 minutes in TRA/TRU. Lara personality and looks is what have maintained the series for so long. As for LC being average... no way.


I think Lara being average is important. Regardless of whether she comes from an aristocratic background or an archaeological background, Lara is still this average sized women who will surprise you.

I felt awkward having to listen to some of Lara's aloud deep thinking and I also believe it's not the right way to go about making Lara deep. I think there is more to deep than loss, Lara needs to experience some new and foreign emotions. I just think Lara was (as said by the GI article) too tefflon.

When I get into a depressing slump I always think back to that moment in Tomb Raider Chronicles. We have worked our way up the building only to have the elevator crash down to the floor, now we must climb back up. This is very appealing, the idea of Lara being pushed to her limits and hitting rock bottom but still being able to recover. This is what I want to see, whether it span one game or be a gradual fall into darkness and then a rise again.



The Core games had incredible agility with Lara and very fast paced combat with charging enemies and lots of acrobatics. The jump around thing was perfect for those games. The CD version of that combat style doesn't work as well so maybe you are right that it needs a revamp.

IMO the best display ever of the acrobatic, fast, agile combat of Tomb Raider was TRA. Aside from the adrenaline dodge which could have been done better. I just think it's time to move away from that in the name of strategy and expansion. Combat needs to evolve into something humans can do, Lara was very incapable with just having guns glued to her hands. This is very clear in TRU and LS, Lara is confronted by the fast doppelganger, she goes to pull out her guns and because the doppelganger is so close the scene just looks awkward. Lara needs to get trained in resourceful combat. Using things around her and every item and limb to her advantage.


Nothing they have done has been to cater to the hardcore fans. In fact the exact opposite. In terms of the vast complex area's it's been CD's choice not to do that. You say you are so against classic TR aspects and yet what you want in level design and exploration sound like a classic TR game.

I want the danger, responsibility, and scale of the classic games with the up to date technology and fluid controls of the newer games. As for any of the aesthetic qualities associated with the classic games, I couldn't care less right now. I do enjoy those styles, classic outfits, globe trotting, etc...however there is more important business to take care of right now IMO.


Is very much fun to see our very different TR perspectives and to debate our different views on the series. I do love how this forum lets us do this.

I agree, it is fun discussing with you too. As long as we can all debate facts and allow each other to have differing opinions these fun debates could go on forever.:)