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SonicTTH
16th Feb 2011, 11:40
Hello,

I'm really interested in Deus Ex 3, so much, that I'm totally going to buy it.

But not, if it's got DRM which wants you to be connected to the Internet for playing the game or something like that.

I will not support any publisher nor developer doing this kind of stuff. We all know, those are allready out there, and I think this kind of DRM is inacceptable because of the heavy violation of a persons privacy, as well as logging telephone calls and similar.

So whats up with that? Does anyone know about the DRM Deus Ex 3 will use?

I really hope that for this great game the capitalistic needs of the publishers won't destroy all the fun of it for the many really interested and inspired players who think like me.

Greetings,

SonicTTH

Shralla
16th Feb 2011, 19:09
99% chance of Steam integration.

SonicTTH
16th Feb 2011, 20:44
Why?
Will steam activation be needed?

nomotog
16th Feb 2011, 21:32
Why?
Will steam activation be needed?

It's so people won't steal the game. Kind of pointless we know, but ya. If they use steam (99.9% chance of that.) You will have to set up a steam account register the game and then download about 50 to 200 megs before you can play. If you want to know more about how steam works, you should just download it and then install some demos. That should give you a good feel.

Jerion
16th Feb 2011, 21:58
If Steamworks is used, there are two options (the latter being more likely in this case, as it was the case with Just Cause 2): The disc is simply a way of telling Steam to start downloading the game, and contains almost nothing on it, OR the disc requires Steam to be installed for activation, achievements(?), DLC(?) and updates, but the game itself installs directly from the disc.

Kodaemon
16th Feb 2011, 22:18
Oldie but goodie:

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7199/15937kw2.gif

Ashpolt
16th Feb 2011, 22:23
Oldie but goodie:

Moar liek "oldie but now irrelevant and innacurate-ie" amirite?

Kodaemon
16th Feb 2011, 22:37
Nothing has changed at all.

MaxxQ1
17th Feb 2011, 01:16
Oldie but goodie:

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7199/15937kw2.gif

That's funny, and I'm going to steal it.

That said, I just want to mention something about Steam that has endeared me even more to it (no, I'm not trying to convince anybody that it's a must-have, just another nice thing about the service):

I built a new comp over the weekend and I'm just now getting around to reinstalling my games. One of them is the original, five-cd version of Half-Life 2. Twice today, I tried to install it, and twice it failed, apparently because of a scratch on my disc 4. After getting Steam up and running, I redownloaded Civ III and Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines, and just for the hell of it, decided to check and see if I could download Half-Life 2. Guess what? It downloaded just fine, and I can play it.

Nice to see that Valve/Steam has my back and I didn't need to go out and buy another copy of the game...

Kvltism
17th Feb 2011, 07:18
The disc is simply a way of telling Steam to start downloading the game, and contains almost nothing on it

Considering the fact I don't want or need Steam, I'll boycott the PC version if they go down that road.

sackyhack
17th Feb 2011, 12:25
The disc is simply a way of telling Steam to start downloading the game.

When has that ever happened??? Bandwidth is more expensive than blank DVDs. I can't imagine any company going that route

Cupio Minimus
17th Feb 2011, 12:31
I live on a boat, no broadband, maybe I should buy the game and then wait for a pirated copy before playing it eh?

Kvltism
17th Feb 2011, 13:01
When has that ever happened??? Bandwidth is more expensive than blank DVDs. I can't imagine any company going that route

The most recent example I can think of was Sniper: Ghost Warrior. But I haven't actually played the game to confirm; was told to avoid it (for that reason, among others) by the manager at a game store I frequent.

nomotog
17th Feb 2011, 14:39
I live on a boat, no broadband, maybe I should buy the game and then wait for a pirated copy before playing it eh?

Don't you need broadband to pirate the game?

Kvltism
17th Feb 2011, 14:52
Don't you need broadband to pirate the game?

I'd hazard a guess and say he means he'd hold out for a crack.

Kodaemon
17th Feb 2011, 14:59
That's what I do these days if I want to play a Steam-infested game - buy the retail version, use a tool to extract the disk, apply crack, presto!

nomotog
17th Feb 2011, 15:41
Ok you use a crack, but you still have to download the missing data. If there is no missing data, then you don't need broad band in the first place. I am not seeing how pirating is less bandwidth then steam.

Kodaemon
17th Feb 2011, 15:46
Actually, even though I'm an opponent of Steam, I don't believe I heard of the missing data thing before. The executable, maybe, but that's around 10-20 megs, not 50-200.

mad825
17th Feb 2011, 16:46
I brought FO:NV via retail but I still had to download around 2GBs of data to play the damn game....The folder for FO:NV doesn't even equal to the amount of data that could've been downloaded/installed to what is read by Windows :mad2:

Kodaemon
17th Feb 2011, 17:23
That's the patches, probably. I bought NV when it came out, and it didn't download anything then.

nomotog
17th Feb 2011, 17:32
Actually, even though I'm an opponent of Steam, I don't believe I heard of the missing data thing before. The executable, maybe, but that's around 10-20 megs, not 50-200.

Well they always make me download a few megs, so I just guessed that was data missing from the disk to keep me from being able to pirate.

SonicTTH
17th Feb 2011, 18:44
@dosbox (and all others as well):

Capitalistic doesnt implicitly means that you want to make money with your stuff, it means that you do everything to get even the last cent out for yourself. Like companies which fire staff even if they could afford having them and being more productive with them rather than saving some money because they say they need to.

What I meant with privacy is: Were living in a world where surveillance is used more and more to control the masses. Steam is one possible way of overwatching people in the most detailed way.

And heres the paradoxon: Deus Ex is exactly about this stuff, showing you how it allready works and how evil this stuff is. How can it be that a this much cultural valuable title is abused by exactly the systems which its ranting about?

thedosbox
18th Feb 2011, 04:00
@dosbox (and all others as well):

Capitalistic doesnt implicitly means that you want to make money with your stuff, it means that you do everything to get even the last cent out for yourself. Like companies which fire staff even if they could afford having them and being more productive with them rather than saving some money because they say they need to.


First of all, "capitalistic" is not a real word. Secondly, I suggest you read up on the role of capital, risk and "return on investment" in the real world.



What I meant with privacy is: Were living in a world where surveillance is used more and more to control the masses. Steam is one possible way of overwatching people in the most detailed way.


I see, so you're saying steam is a method of mind control. It's been suggested that tin foil hats are an effective way to counter this. However, ensure your ears are covered as those are effective antenna that allow for detection by our overlords.

dxb
18th Feb 2011, 04:35
@dosbox (and all others as well):

Capitalistic doesnt implicitly means that you want to make money with your stuff, it means that you do everything to get even the last cent out for yourself. Like companies which fire staff even if they could afford having them and being more productive with them rather than saving some money because they say they need to.


Implicit - Implied though not plainly expressed

Capitalism implicitly means what ever you want it to, because you're the one making the implication.

Now, since capitalism technically (although not implicitly, in this case) has nothing to do with being greedy, let's look at what it actually is:

Capitalism - An economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

So all capitalism means is that you don't have to go to the DMV for a haircut.

That said, your scenario about companies firing their staff (even if they are more productive with said staff) just to save money...it doesn't make sense. If they are more productive with their staff, then firing them doesn't save money. The reason they have to fire people is because they aren't making a surplus, therefore workers are the opposite of productive...they are leeches. In this case, the question has to be asked : Fire a few individuals so that your company can survive hard times; or pay them for a year, but everybody gets fired a year later when the company goes under? Which choice is smarter? Which choice is even more ethical?

Capitalism is not out to get you, bro.

Quillan
18th Feb 2011, 04:52
That said, I just want to mention something about Steam that has endeared me even more to it (no, I'm not trying to convince anybody that it's a must-have, just another nice thing about the service):

I built a new comp over the weekend and I'm just now getting around to reinstalling my games. One of them is the original, five-cd version of Half-Life 2. Twice today, I tried to install it, and twice it failed, apparently because of a scratch on my disc 4. After getting Steam up and running, I redownloaded Civ III and Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines, and just for the hell of it, decided to check and see if I could download Half-Life 2. Guess what? It downloaded just fine, and I can play it.

Nice to see that Valve/Steam has my back and I didn't need to go out and buy another copy of the game...

Back when HL2 came out, I bought the Collector's Edition on DVD. I lost it (and most everything else) in a fire in 2008. All my Steam games can be (and most have been) redownloaded, in some cases several times over.

Cupio Minimus
18th Feb 2011, 08:45
That's actually a great argument for Steam. Unfortunately my scars haven't healed yet from installing HL2 on a system with a 56k dial-up connection. It was last thing on the third evening that I actually got the game fired up and started configuring the options. :nut:

Back to living on a boat... I can access a landline at work, download to lappy and/or USB stick, but if I want the game installed on a boat-bound desktop, I don't see that's gonna help with the legit approach. Steam likes to do considerably more than just okay an installation over a slow connection. :(

Have funds, want game, please let me buy a hard copy, go home, install and play :mad2:

Kodaemon
18th Feb 2011, 09:15
Have funds, want game, please let me buy a hard copy, go home, install and play :mad2:

This. OVER 9000 this. I don't have much against Steam as a distribution service. But putting steamworks in boxed versions should be illegal.

Kvltism
18th Feb 2011, 09:38
buy a hard copy, go home, install and play

That is EXACTLY how the process should be.

SonicTTH
18th Feb 2011, 11:24
@ dosbox and others: I'm sorry if my english isn't as good as I thought it would be, so that could be the source of some mistakes... ('capitalism' might not be the right word) however, I think you can get what I mean.

And if you don't understand what I mean with overwatch and controlling the masses, you should look around in your society and see how it is right now.

What I just wanted to say: I'm worried about the way the world is going. One reason for that is the way people need to authenticate themselves if they just want to play games they allready bought for example. Why needs anybody to know that I bought that game? This is my privacy. If you don't understand what I say, it's okay. But you really shouldn't make fun of this.

It's right, there are reasons for steam, like Quillan said for example. But This is something like with an insurance. If you register this stuff on steam, you got the insurance that you could download the game as much as you want. But if I don't want it, I shouldn't be forced to have it. And in 100 Years, Steam won't exist in its way anymore like it does today. Computers will change really much in that time and If steam isn't there anymore and you want to play a game which you have on a dvd (which will then be nostalgic) like Deus Ex 3 here, you're ffed.

Ok. It's for sure that nothing lasts forever, but we have those kind of problem with today's software as well. f.E. at my company we got some really old software which was build with a program called "Borland J-Builder 2" or something like that. To register this software after installing, you need to communicate with some server - but there's NONE there anymore so we can't do anything else but use cracks. Which IS Illegal - even If we can't use our legally bought software for thousands of euros because of the missing support until today.

This kind of problem, we're facing with steam as well. And nobody will care for people who bought their game 30 years ago and support hosting for it in the future.

sackyhack
18th Feb 2011, 15:18
Valve has said repeatedly in the past that if Steam were to ever be shut down, all games would be released from their DRM. So at worst you'd have to download all your Steam games to a HD or dvds to save them, but you'd be able to play them without the Steam servers. That's no different than having a bunch of non-Steam dvds laying around as we already do. Really, if you research Steam a bit you'll see that it's a solid alternative to discs, and Valve has a great track record with fans. Between their ridiculous sales, pre-order discounts, and other features, I haven't bought a disc-based game for a while, only when I want all the bells and whistles of a special edition like Mass Effect 2 or Deus Ex 3.

thedosbox
18th Feb 2011, 15:29
What I just wanted to say: I'm worried about the way the world is going. One reason for that is the way people need to authenticate themselves if they just want to play games they allready bought for example. Why needs anybody to know that I bought that game? This is my privacy.


So don't buy the game on release. Instead, support GoG where there is no DRM and the installer can be run on any machine as often as you like. Or wait until the price on steam falls low enough where you think it's worth having to use steam.

Point being, there are choices. You just need to figure out whether compromising your principles is worth being able to play the game when it's shiny and new instead of waiting a few years.

However, based on previous history (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/11/12/why-they-dont-take-boycotts-seriously/), I suspect most gamers are "all talk and no trousers".

SonicTTH
18th Feb 2011, 16:28
@sackyhack: Nice information, didn't know about that until now.

@dosbox: Well, it looks like the speech is true: "Each nation has exactly the gouvernment it deserves" - I mean that if we don't or didn't really do anything about this stuff with steam etc., we mabye deserve it the way it is.

Reven
22nd Feb 2011, 19:48
That's actually a great argument for Steam. Unfortunately my scars haven't healed yet from installing HL2 on a system with a 56k dial-up connection. It was last thing on the third evening that I actually got the game fired up and started configuring the options. :nut:

Back to living on a boat... I can access a landline at work, download to lappy and/or USB stick, but if I want the game installed on a boat-bound desktop, I don't see that's gonna help with the legit approach. Steam likes to do considerably more than just okay an installation over a slow connection. :(

Have funds, want game, please let me buy a hard copy, go home, install and play :mad2:

Count yourself lucky i got the game the same day it came out and i didnt get a net connection in my house until 3 years later.

Dr_Bob
23rd Feb 2011, 12:47
This. OVER 9000 this. I don't have much against Steam as a distribution service. But putting steamworks in boxed versions should be illegal.

Drama queen.

You'd be a great contributor to a newspaper like the Daily Mail or The Sun.

You could blow things out of proportion and attempt to scare people with your stories.

Daracus
23rd Feb 2011, 17:29
I don't want to sound like a fanboy, but I have to give Steam/Valve credit... they showed the industry that: Their is a very profitable market for PC gaming and their are people who are willing to pay for games if they are of good qualify, not subject to intrusive copy protection schemes and allow users to have unlimited use* of the product they paid for. Especially when a good portion of the industry was crying "Piracy is killing us on the PC market!"

If anything more publishers and digital distribution services are copying steam's business model because it works and they now control a large portion of the PC digital gaming market. EA/D2D, dropped the re-download fees for their digital stores (making them steam-like) and Ubisoft just announced that they will not be using the persistent online connection for Assassin's Creed Brotherhood.

Personally I don't trust any company.... but Steam/Valve genuinely seem to be on side of the customer... and for that I support 'em.

Note*: "use" as in playing ur game w/o installation limits.... yes some games of steam do have install limits (via 3rd party copy protection implemented by publisher) but not Steamworks games.

Ashpolt
23rd Feb 2011, 18:20
A great article about DRM from RockPaperShotgun. (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/02/23/opinion-ubisoft-drm/)

I agree with pretty much everything they say in this article.

Quillan
24th Feb 2011, 00:51
Well, this is not a certainty, but I just read over on Gamespot that the PC release of Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood will not have the Ubisoft DRM that AC II and Splinter Cell: Conviction both had. It'll still require online activation, but after that may be played fully offline. If they're not using it for AC:B, then I hope that means they've abandoned the idea.

Ashpolt
24th Feb 2011, 00:58
Well, this is not a certainty, but I just read over on Gamespot that the PC release of Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood will not have the Ubisoft DRM that AC II and Splinter Cell: Conviction both had. It'll still require online activation, but after that may be played fully offline. If they're not using it for AC:B, then I hope that means they've abandoned the idea.

Read the article I've posted above, it talks about AC: Brotherhood's DRM in length. It doesn't require you to be online constantly, but you do have to be online every time you launch the game (not just the first time.) So, better than Ubisoft's old DRM, but still worse than it should be. And, ironically, still worse than the product the pirates will put out.

mentalkase
24th Feb 2011, 07:51
"And therefore your customers, literally unable to use the product you’re selling, will turn to the better offer. At the moment you are charging £35/$60 for a product that is much, much worse than one that can be obtained for free."

Ahh I see ..

BigBoss
24th Feb 2011, 11:26
The day Internet connectivity DRM becomes the mainstay of all video games is the day I quit my favorite hobby.

St. Mellow
25th Feb 2011, 01:47
^ How come you haven't quit yet then? Unless you mean absolute technical 100%, we're pretty much there my friend.

EDIT: Now my comment doesn't make any sense. :P Read on for explanation. Or don't.

BigBoss
25th Feb 2011, 04:45
^ Exactly. I'm not a pc player so It doesn't affect me much

K^2
25th Feb 2011, 05:07
^ Exactly. I'm not a pc player so It doesn't affect me much
Erm. DRM has been on consoles since NES, and it's stronger than ever now.

BigBoss
25th Feb 2011, 05:12
On Dlc and xbox live arcade yes, but I can play all the games that I enjoy offline.

jtr7
25th Feb 2011, 05:52
Offline 100% of the entire time you possess the game? Or did you ever have to go online at any point for any reason, say, during installation, or starting the game for the first time?

Cronstintein
25th Feb 2011, 06:03
There's cd-required DRM on consoles but other than that what do you mean?

rokstrombo
25th Feb 2011, 06:23
Perhaps my friends are just a bunch of thieves, but many, many of the people I know pirate software and multimedia without a second thought. If they can get it for free they will, even if it costs <$10 to buy. The best predictors of a non-pirate are 1) Small-time software developers or artists, 2) Collectors, 3) Uncommonly enthusiastic about protecting intellectual property, 4) Can't figure out how to use .torrent files, 5) Older than 70, and 5) Already own everything else they could ever want.

I wouldn't be surprised if DRM protected publishers profits.

BigBoss
25th Feb 2011, 06:26
Ok, well when you put it that way that it requires the disc, then fine. What I was talking about was connectivity with the internet. I thought that it was implied that's what the topic was, so I'll fix my statement.

Edit: But to clarify, when I buy a single player game I never have to first connect to the internet. When that becomes the norm is when I'll quit.

Brockxz
25th Feb 2011, 06:32
Well, soon we will see what happens when someone releases game without DRM because The Witcher 2 will be like that. I hope that move won't destroy them because i like what they are doing with RPG genre and PC gaming.

Cronstintein
25th Feb 2011, 06:43
I'm with you on this one, BigBoss, that's why I was trying to clarify what K^2 meant by "DRM". There's certainly no online DRM a la Ubisoft.

K^2
25th Feb 2011, 06:58
360 does checks that it reports on Live. It's not going to prevent you from playing the game, but it can ban you from Live for cracking disk-check. And both Sony and Microsoft are now moving towards on-line DRM methods.

You are stuck with DRM on any platform. If anything, you have more flexibility on PC, because you have more ways to circumvent DRM if it's a pain. You can disable on-line checks even with most Steam games. Sure, you have to install a crack, but you have that option. With console, you usually don't.

Cronstintein
25th Feb 2011, 07:27
Oh yeah I did hear about that coming out not that long ago, busting a bunch of chipped boxes. In my mind though, this is the ideal DRM. I'm not generally a DRM fan but basically the result is:
a) Non-pirates are completely uneffected to the point of being unaware of the DRM's existence.
b) It has some negative effect on piracy. I'm kind of guessing on this point, but I imagine you'd think twice if it can cause you problems. Though realistically, this is probably minimal.

Compare this to PC DRM where pirates almost instantly remove it from pirate versions but the actual consumers are punished repeatedly with ridiculous conditions.

EDIT: I have a feeling the witcher 2 will do fine. Also they're releasing on consoles so they got those sales in the bag ;)
This game looks good. Even though I'm a little burnt out on the fantasy setting, the grittiness gives it some appeal.

K^2
25th Feb 2011, 07:53
The difference is that console gamers have already been pushed into the corner. "This is the hardware you play it on, this is the content you are going to have, this is the list of extras you need to pay for." PC gamers don't stand for it. They want to choose their own hardware, their own software configuration, and play games on their terms. Of course, they get hit harder by DRM inconveniences. But that's not an argument for console DRM being less restrictive. Just the opposite.

Brockxz
25th Feb 2011, 10:27
EDIT: I have a feeling the witcher 2 will do fine. Also they're releasing on consoles so they got those sales in the bag ;)
This game looks good. Even though I'm a little burnt out on the fantasy setting, the grittiness gives it some appeal.

The console version isn 't confirmed yet. Yes, game looks great and most likely will hit 1 million sold pretty easy as it did with the first one but i fear that won't be enough for them to continue to convince publishers about making pc only games etc.

BigBoss
25th Feb 2011, 18:41
The console version isn 't confirmed yet. Yes, game looks great and most likely will hit 1 million sold pretty easy as it did with the first one but i fear that won't be enough for them to continue to convince publishers about making pc only games etc.

I thought it was confirmed cancelled, you can't buy it anymore on amazon or gamestop

Reven
25th Feb 2011, 19:01
I thought it was confirmed cancelled, you can't buy it anymore on amazon or gamestop


I know the console version of The witcher were canned (whitewolf?) dont know about 2.

Brockxz
25th Feb 2011, 19:04
I thought it was confirmed cancelled, you can't buy it anymore on amazon or gamestop

i was talking about the second game. Yes, the first game's console version was canceled.

Reven
25th Feb 2011, 19:29
The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings looks to be PC exclusive. CDPR dont have any experience in the console market, their trouble with the whitewolf game proves it. so i would be suprised if they try again after launch.