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Pretentious Old Man.
13th Jan 2011, 16:10
Yes, it's another one of those nebulous threads again. But on what I feel to be an important idea.

"Hardcore" is a word used a lot in the gaming industry, and always has been. No matter how far you go back in videogame journalism, "hardcore" has always come up. However, what does it mean?

In my recollection, games like Operation Flashpoint and Microsoft Flight Simulator 2003 were "hardcore". Simulations, basically. Games that were unforgiving, usually had average to bad graphics, often had terrible interfaces (see: "Jutland"), and were designed to not cost very much to make, appeal to a small demographic of people who would usually pay well for their niche genre. Alternatively, "hardcore" might also mean a game with an ultra-dedicated fanbase, like Counter Strike, usually deeply competitive.

Now, I'm not going to suggest that this kind of game has been dying lately, absolutely the reverse. The advent of superior digital distribution means that now is a better time than ever to make that kind of game, free of publishing shackles. However, no longer do the mainstream press limit their use of "hardcore" to these types of games any more. They tend not to even report them any more.

See this article here (http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/114/1143660p1.html). It's an IGN article (I know, I know) about Dragon Age 2, and gives a kind of summary of the story so far, if you like. Some people here might find it interesting in its own right. Anyway, the following passage caught my eye:


I won't name names, but yes, you will run into characters from the previous game and expansion packs in Dragon Age 2. It's a nice touch for hardcore fans to see familiar faces, but newcomers don't need to know their backstories in order to appreciate them.

Excuse me, IGN? All of a sudden, a "hardcore fan" is someone who has merely played the first game in the franchise?

This trend is everywhere, not just on my pet hate gaming site. Gamespot referred to the Stronghold series as "hardcore castle simulators", whereas in fact they are little more than a pleasant hybrid of RTS and city builder, certainly none too challenging or "hardcore". Activision famously differentiates between CoD (an allegedly "hardcore" game) and its more casual (ha!) movie-tie in dross, stating that CoD is for "hardcore gamers". Mmmm. Presumably these hardcore gamers enjoy not using dedicated servers and being locked at 30-odd fps? The list goes on. Facebook have been talking about introducing some "hardcore" games, meaning of course a generic first person shooty thing as opposed to farmville.

This is ridiculous. I never have been, nor have I ever aspired to be, a "hardcore" gamer. However, this ridiculous misnomer is just bugging me. Once, people (well, alright, nerds) used to be labelled "hardcore" for either playing incredibly niche games, or playing mainstream games with a massive degree of skill and also a massive degree of douchish ego. (Again, Counter Strike). Now, all of a sudden, it means "anyone who did not decide to start transiently gaming just yesterday", i.e. the old and the young. Passing trade, who everyone wants a piece of.

Why does this bother me? Well, I believe this is one of the first mechanisms towards marginalising "real" (note: not hardcore) gamers. If genuine gamers are being turned into the kind of paranoid and over-sensitive gaming zealots that hardcore gamers are, they will be demonised and by turns phased out, since they represent a much smaller market than the general public at large (see: Nintendo Wii, Microsoft Kinect). Warren Spector peddles a lot of what I firmly believe to be nonsense about the two facts not being related, but I think he's wrong. This is part of an underlying trend to move where the money goes. Just like the PC got dumped for the consoles, sooner or later the HD consoles will be dumped in favour of Kinect-style equipment, in the race to the Lowest Common Denominator. This might spell a rosy future for the daddy, the PC, in the shape of those easy-to-distribute indie games I mentioned earlier.

However, in my humble opinion, as a medium the game is going the way of the book and especially a film: don't expect to find genius in the mainstream any more, you'll have to look for it on the sidelines. It'll still be there, just not as obviously.

/peaceout

AzureForge
13th Jan 2011, 16:38
I agree that the meaning of hardcore is currently shifting and I will propose the theory that it's now used as the reverse of casual. The middle ground between what should be two extreme is gone so you are either a casual player who is playing Wii Fit or a hardcore gamer who plays Call of Duty.

pha
13th Jan 2011, 16:41
They will keep using this terminology for games designed for kids and soccer moms with ultra short attention spans, as long as lazy people expect to have all merits and no burdens of being called "hardcore".

Substance over style, high difficulty, no hand holding, no easy mode directions, no "cinematic explanation" nonsense... I think Mount and Blade: Warband is the only "hardcore" game I've played last year.

And I agree, the original Operation Flashpoint is one of the most hardcore games which does justice to the word.

Ashpolt
13th Jan 2011, 16:43
I agree with your points, and don't really have much to add: it's struck me as odd for a while that games like CoD are considered "hardcore" nowadays, whereas as little as 10 years ago they would've been the lower end of "normal" - fun, pretty, but ultimately shallow experiences.

Sadly, the trouble with looking to smaller developers for your niche experiences is that they (obviously) have less budget, and I don't know about anyone else but I would quite like depth, originality and decent production values. It's fine for books because publishing a niche book doesn't cost any more than publishing a mainstream one: just run off fewer copies and you can still get a decent ROI. Even for films, a fairly professional looking movie can be made on a relatively low budget. For games, however, "low budget" by necessity means either 2D or poor 3D (a la Minecraft) and while I can overlook that for games that are truly brilliant (....a la Minecraft) I wouldn't want, for instance, an indie take on Deus Ex to look that poor. Also, while indie devs may have some great ideas, without the financial backing they're going to be limited in how well they can realise those ideas.

Got to disagree with your point about books though: there are some absolutely fantastic books available "in the mainstream." Heck, if I can pick up House of Leaves at my local Waterstones (which I can, ignoring the fact that I already have 2 copies) and that's one of the most non-conventional, standard reader unfriendly books I can think of, I don't know exactly how you'd even go about defining what counts as "mainstream" for that media.

VectorM
13th Jan 2011, 17:30
I agree with your points, and don't really have much to add: it's struck me as odd for a while that games like CoD are considered "hardcore" nowadays, whereas as little as 10 years ago they would've been the lower end of "normal" - fun, pretty, but ultimately shallow experiences.


Can you give me an example of what the "10 years ago" version of Cod: MW would be? Because when I try to compare it to older games, I think of streight up mindless shooters like Quake.

Pretentious Old Man.
13th Jan 2011, 18:05
Can you give me an example of what the "10 years ago" version of Cod: MW would be? Because when I try to compare it to older games, I think of streight up mindless shooters like Quake.

Mindless they were, but they were also incredibly skilled. Running at those kinds of frames per second, "twitch" just doesn't even begin to cover it. They were definitely more difficult online than CoD.

Coyotegrey
13th Jan 2011, 18:11
I love you right now, Pretentious Old Man.

Pretentious Old Man.
13th Jan 2011, 18:22
I love you right now, Pretentious Old Man.

I love you always, Kyle.

Notice, incidentally, how I purposely didn't mention EM. Sure, Jean-Francois does talk talk about the "hardcore" fans, but that's in-context so one cannot blame him. I am, as it happens, fairy optimistic that EM will get this right, especially if the "Deus Ex" difficulty is broadly analogous to "Realistic" in the original (itself not *that*hard)

VectorM
13th Jan 2011, 18:42
Mindless they were, but they were also incredibly skilled. Running at those kinds of frames per second, "twitch" just doesn't even begin to cover it. They were definitely more difficult online than CoD.

Was playing Half-Life and CS super easy to play back then?

Pretentious Old Man.
13th Jan 2011, 19:00
Was playing Half-Life and CS super easy to play back then?

Half-Life was indeed rather easy for most of its length, CS was not and is not. I don't understand what you're trying to say? Are you really trying to compare the 30fps intensity of CoD with the 60-80fps intensity of Counter Strike?

NKD
13th Jan 2011, 19:09
As with anything really, "hardcore" is a pretty relative term. The definition of "hardcore" has changed because the definition of the average gamer has changed as well. Gaming is more popular than it was 10 or 15 years ago by a huge amount. Almost all of that growth, though, has been in what we would have referred to 15 years ago as casual gaming, if we had such a term back then.

So naturally with all those new gamers ranging from grandma on Farmville to the kiddy talking smack on Xbox Live, the definition of hardcore is going to loosen up quite a bit. Someone who sits on their Xbox playing CoD 4 or 5 hours a day is pretty hardcore by most peoples standards these days.

As with any writing, you want to write for your readers. Sites like IGN and GameSpot are mainly read by the average gamer. So terminology about what is hardcore or isn't hardcore is going to be relative to that average.

VectorM
13th Jan 2011, 19:21
Half-Life was indeed rather easy for most of its length, CS was not and is not. I don't understand what you're trying to say? Are you really trying to compare the 30fps intensity of CoD with the 60-80fps intensity of Counter Strike?

Are you trying to say that the frames you see on your monitor are an indication of "intensity"? Are you also implying that CoD can't run on more than 30 FPS and that CS NEVER run on less than 60 FPS?

NKD
13th Jan 2011, 19:29
Are you trying to say that the frames you see on your monitor are an indication of "intensity"? Are you also implying that CoD can't run on more than 30 FPS and that CS NEVER run on less than 60 FPS?

Yeah I was just thinking that was kind of odd. Higher frame rates were more desirable on older games because of the twitchier pace, but it didn't _cause_ the faster pace. Indeed there were many people on crap machines getting 30fps in Counter Strike.

The twitchy pace was mainly because every player was using a keyboard and mouse and no one cared at all for any kind of realism.

Deus_Ex_Machina
13th Jan 2011, 19:32
My personal definition of a "hardcore" gamer is, but not necessarily limited to,:


A) Someone who invests a lot of time/money into gaming

and/or

B) Someone who typically plays games that have more depth/complexity/difficulty than most other games

and/or

C) Someone who has been gaming for a while (10+ years consistently)



Even though it's just my opinion, I'm sure it will be ripped apart. I would expect nothing less from this forum. :D

ZakKa89
13th Jan 2011, 22:00
There are many ways the term 'hardcore gamer' is interpreted

I like to think that hardcore gaming also applies to the 'way' you play the game. Sometimes I know I get more out of some games than other people who just run and gun trough a whole game without exploring, trying out different approaches, challenge yourself with made up achievements etcetera.

Also, in terms of 'the way you play the game'. Trying to play starcraft 1/2 competitively and watching matches, reading strategies on forums/wiki and being actively involved in a community can also be described as hardcore.

I absoltely agree that the term hardcore game applies to games where practise and skill is required to play really well. Both on a competitive level and singleplayer.

I absolutely disagree that a game can be called hardcore just because it has a dedicated fanbase. It is one aspect that you see with hardcore games, I agree on that. Still, that doesn't mean that when a game has a dedicated fanbase, it's hardcore.

luminar
13th Jan 2011, 22:25
"Hardcore" gamers in my humble opinion are gamers who invest time in not only playing games but also in learning how to get better at them. Hardcore games are those with depth of features and engaging gameplay which requires you to adapt and grow in skill. Things like handholding and other things people complain about are irrelevant as long as the depth and gameplay is there.

Dead-Eye
14th Jan 2011, 00:02
Has anyone thought that the dumbing down of the gaming industry is an intentional play by the global elite to make us all dumber?

Video games represent a danger zone to the global elite, they require the player to be an active participant in order to progress and indirectly force the player to use their brains. If people started using the brains they might actually figure out what going on. This is already happening. Everyday people are waking up to the reality that they live in a police state, as a result the elite are stepping up their game. It's why we are all getting harassed at airports now, and why their talking about gun control and limiting free speech after the Arizona shooting.

The elites are scared, we already have everything we need to expose them, all it takes now is for the population to start using their critical thinking skills (Something society has been designed to oppress) and pretty soon this 8500+ year old conspiracy is going to fall. Until it dose however we are going to get answers like "The industry has grown up." as an explanation for the obvious and deliberate dumbing down of the industry.

Senka
14th Jan 2011, 00:09
Are you really trying to compare the 30fps intensity of CoD with the 60-80fps intensity of Counter Strike?

Yeah, I'm gunna have to comment on this as well. the fps you run at (as long as its high enough not to distract you) doesn't change the 'intensity' of the gameplay. The number, quality and skill of the opponents as well as game type, map, your mood etc do. Sure you could be in the most amazing game of quake ever, but if you're not really feeling it and not focusing, it's not going to be very intense for you.

Cronstintein
14th Jan 2011, 00:48
My personal definition of a "hardcore" gamer is, but not necessarily limited to,:


A) Someone who invests a lot of time/money into gaming

and/or

B) Someone who typically plays games that have more depth/complexity/difficulty than most other games

and/or

C) Someone who has been gaming for a while (10+ years consistently)



I fit all three, HARDCORE! Woo!

I think a lot of what's described in the OP as 'hardcore' could be described more accurately as 'core' or just 'gamers'.

K^2
14th Jan 2011, 01:07
Was playing Half-Life and CS super easy to play back then?
I stopped playing HL-MP because it was filled with people who didn't know how to frag to save their own worthless lives. Quake and Quake II had the most skilled players out of all FPS games ever made, and nothing before or after ever came close.

Counter Strike is different. Having grown up on Quake deathmatch, I could never grasp the concept of team cooperation. So CS matches I've participated in consisted of either me single-handedly wiping out the other team, or getting cut down by a good ambush.

Don't even start me on Halo players. I was cutting these guys down after 10 minutes of holding an XBox controller for the first time.

Gamespot referred to the Stronghold series as "hardcore castle simulators"
They've never even heard of Dwarf Fortress, have they?

jtr7
14th Jan 2011, 02:04
To list a few rough notions:

Hard, at the core, unbending on specified aspects.
Those who champion a cause with less tolerance than most find comfortable.
Those to whom something is really really important, and if money is at all available, they invest in it, and not necessarily in the game alone, but the paraphernalia can be more important.
Brutal. Pushing the envelope of taste and decency, which may involve realism, but not necessarily.

sonicsidewinder
14th Jan 2011, 02:26
Hardcore is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPkDt6Mfwcc

Never played gunz...well, you aint 'Hardcore'.

Come on people. It's just an evolution of the word. Hardcore. It's edgy and dangerous, while still holding positive connotations. People like being associated with it, so sensationalist journalism rolls with it. The problem now is, that you've heard it too much.

It's the same with 'Epic'.

motsm
14th Jan 2011, 03:06
I think this old adage applies here...

If everyone is hardcore, no one is hardcore.

Deus_Ex_Machina
14th Jan 2011, 05:39
Everyday people are waking up to the reality that they live in a police state, as a result the elite are stepping up their game. It's why we are all getting harassed at airports now, and why their talking about gun control and limiting free speech after the Arizona shooting.

Not trying to start a political debate on a videogame forum or anything, but that line of thinking is mostly produced and funded by Freedomworks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedomworks) and paranoiacs like Alex Jones.

singularity
14th Jan 2011, 08:19
There are many ways the term 'hardcore gamer' is interpreted

I like to think that hardcore gaming also applies to the 'way' you play the game. Sometimes I know I get more out of some games than other people who just run and gun trough a whole game without exploring, trying out different approaches, challenge yourself with made up achievements etcetera.

Also, in terms of 'the way you play the game'. Trying to play starcraft 1/2 competitively and watching matches, reading strategies on forums/wiki and being actively involved in a community can also be described as hardcore.

I absoltely agree that the term hardcore game applies to games where practise and skill is required to play really well. Both on a competitive level and singleplayer.

I absolutely disagree that a game can be called hardcore just because it has a dedicated fanbase. It is one aspect that you see with hardcore games, I agree on that. Still, that doesn't mean that when a game has a dedicated fanbase, it's hardcore.

I think this is pretty spot on. At least in terms of a "hardcore gamer" -- a hardcore game I define differently.
But look at DX. As Pretentious mentioned before, even on Realistic, DX wasn't too hard. I've met people who played DX and they just played it as a half shooter, half RPG with a little bit of stealth -- nothing too special, especially by today's standards. It really wasn't that hardcore of a game -- but our community, we turned it into something "hardcore" - and we love it because it, as a game, gave us the tools to do so. We're the ones who went through and didn't kill a single person, beat the game by only throwing objects, Built bridges with random crap, learned every damn line from nearly every damn NPC, tinkerred with the AI for forever and found 8 million ways past any circumstance in the game.

As for a hardcore game though? I have no clue any more... but I'll tell you one thing -- most of the stuff I see on the Wii, and all of the stuff I see on the Kinect... aren't it.

I still see "hardcore" as the original mega man. Brutally hard, and if you die enough times, start the whole game over. But It doesn't always boil down to pure difficulty -- Mega man had a D pad and 2 buttons... anyone could learn it and play it (and many did). These days it also comes down to complexity. Is it a game that people are willing to learn? A lot of people put EVE Online in the hardcore catagory due to its complexity. But then what about brain power involved? I know many who put Metal Gear (Solid) in the hardcore catagory because you need a PHd in psychology and a 5th of whisky to understand the plot in all of its entiriety...

I'd say the only game that is without a doubt, hardcore is one that includes a high degree of complexity, unforgiving difficulty, and a lot of brain-power to fully understand. Which would basicly be nothing.

Kvltism
14th Jan 2011, 08:52
Not trying to start a political debate on a videogame forum or anything, but that line of thinking is mostly produced and funded by Freedomworks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedomworks) and paranoiacs like Alex Jones.

Reason Magazine raised that point (political opportunists are using the tragedy to take aim at free speech and gun rights) also, and I'd hardly call them GOP shills, card-carrying members of the Tinfoil Hat Brigade or anything like that. Both parties are guilty of exploiting tragic incidents to drop a deuce on civil liberties.

Back on-topic, I don't really give any thought to such things. Buzzwords like "hardcore" are best left to second-rate journalists imo.

VectorM
14th Jan 2011, 09:37
I stopped playing HL-MP because it was filled with people who didn't know how to frag to save their own worthless lives. Quake and Quake II had the most skilled players out of all FPS games ever made, and nothing before or after ever came close.

Counter Strike is different. Having grown up on Quake deathmatch, I could never grasp the concept of team cooperation. So CS matches I've participated in consisted of either me single-handedly wiping out the other team, or getting cut down by a good ambush.

Don't even start me on Halo players. I was cutting these guys down after 10 minutes of holding an XBox controller for the first time.


Anecdotal evidence, from start to finish. I have also seen REALLY good Half-Life players and really ****ty Quake players. Doesn't prove anything though.


Not trying to start a political debate on a videogame forum or anything, but that line of thinking is mostly produced and funded by Freedomworks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedomworks) and paranoiacs like Alex Jones.

I don't think you know Dead-Eye very well :D


Reason Magazine raised that point (political opportunists are using the tragedy to take aim at free speech and gun rights) also, and I'd hardly call them GOP shills, card-carrying members of the Tinfoil Hat Brigade or anything like that. Both parties are guilty of exploiting tragic incidents to drop a deuce on civil liberties.

That's the biggest problem with conspiracy nuts - they take different facts and spin them in to something outrageous. And now, when people try to talk about the REAL threats, they get associated with the conspiracy nuts.

One the main reasons I hate conspiracy theorists.

Mindmute
14th Jan 2011, 09:56
The only really hardcore game out there is QWOP!


Anecdotal evidence, from start to finish. I have also seen REALLY good Half-Life players and really ****ty Quake players. Doesn't prove anything though.

To be honest, I'd say there's "regular" gamers and hardcore ones in both those games. The people who joined in to play every now and again with friends would be "regular" ones and the ones who played with some extra gusto, (participating in tournaments, arranging clans, events, etc.) would be the hardcore ones.

And I'll fight the notion that Quake players are the most skilled old school FPS players by saying UT ones are superior :D

pha
14th Jan 2011, 10:03
And I'll fight the notion that Quake players are the most skilled old school FPS players by saying UT ones are superior :D

That goes without saying.:D

VectorM
14th Jan 2011, 10:30
Hah, bunny jumping, point and shoot noobies. Silly FPS players. Heroes of Newerth is where it's at :D :D

K^2
14th Jan 2011, 10:59
Anecdotal evidence, from start to finish. I have also seen REALLY good Half-Life players and really ****ty Quake players. Doesn't prove anything though.
Oh, no doubt. The problem is that a descent quaker like myself, and I was nowhere even close to the top ranks, could compete on the level with best of the best in HL. A random room in Quake provided me with at least one worthy opponent. A random room in HL was a waste of my time. There were plenty of idiots in both camps, though. No doubt.


And I'll fight the notion that Quake players are the most skilled old school FPS players by saying UT ones are superior
I can't really say much about UT. I know by UT2003/2004 it was just as much of a waste of time as HL MP, but I've heard good things about Classic, so maybe it had some good deathmatchers.

If you want to do some 1-on-1 in QII or UT99, we can probably set it up.

Edit: In fact, maybe setting up a forum mini-championship across classic deatmatches could be fun. We are probably all rusty enough with them so that it wouldn't make a big difference if somebody has to learn a new game, or just remember the old one.

Mindmute
14th Jan 2011, 11:09
Heh yeah, I meant UT99.


In fact, maybe setting up a forum mini-championship across classic deatmatches could be fun. We are probably all rusty enough with them so that it wouldn't make a big difference if somebody has to learn a new game, or just remember the old one.

I'm up for that! I promised a DM/CTF game (I used to be a CTF junkie) to AlexOfSpades ages ago, but never got around to actually really look for my old copy of UT99. If enough people get together to have some fun with it, I'd be game.


Edit: It would be interesting if CODElite were in too, so we could compare the "new generation" of gamers to us oldies :p

xaduha
14th Jan 2011, 13:07
Count me in.
I play TF2 these days, but UT99 bots taught me a lesson I still remember :)

K^2
14th Jan 2011, 13:52
I'll try to dig up a copy and get a bit of a feeling for weapons and maps. Mostly the later.

I wonder if anyone ever tried porting q2dm4 to UT99 or any other FPS.

Senka
14th Jan 2011, 23:24
And I'll fight the notion that Quake players are the most skilled old school FPS players by saying UT ones are superior :D

Dem fightin' words

Shralla
14th Jan 2011, 23:28
I know by UT2003/2004 it was just as much of a waste of time as HL MP

I don't even know what to say about something so ridiculously elitist.

jtr7
15th Jan 2011, 00:48
Hardcore gamers can be utterly non-hardcore regarding specific titles. A hardcore gamer, in any iteration of the term, can be n00bish about DX, and it's possible to remain n00bish no matter how much the games are played. Astonishing but true. It's mind-blowing to have a serious debate with someone over a game, convinced they've had little experience for all the gaps in basic knowledge, only to find out they've had the game longer, and played it more than yourself.

St. Mellow
15th Jan 2011, 02:08
Count me in for the forum deathmatch! UT99 all the way. Superior to Quake in every way. Though I think we should play both so it's fair for both sides. Bring it on!

TrickyVein
15th Jan 2011, 02:08
Did someone here mention UT99?

The game I've been playing since before the 21st century?

And that I'm still mapping for? I remember something almost starting with alex and mindmute a while ago, but things went South. I've got mine installed for these kinds of situations. ;)

This may require a new thread. Organizing a server a rounding up fresh meat.

Dead-Eye
15th Jan 2011, 03:04
That's the biggest problem with conspiracy nuts - they take different facts and spin them in to something outrageous. And now, when people try to talk about the REAL threats, they get associated with the conspiracy nuts.
And you don't see the paradox in your statement?

Why would they want to associate you with conspiracy nuts?

VectorM
15th Jan 2011, 08:46
Why would they want to associate you with conspiracy nuts?

I wasn't talking about me specifically.

And nobody "wants" to associate anyone with the conspiracy nuts, but such outrageous garbage comes out of their mouths, that when someone says something that barely resembles a conspiracy theory (like, say, being sceptical about the legitimacy of the election process or something like that), you can get associated with the conspiracy theorists and be dismissed on the spot.

Mindmute
15th Jan 2011, 10:45
This may require a new thread. Organizing a server a rounding up fresh meat.

Should we start a forum group and a new thread for the round-up then? With some obscure name or pun, like "Yr hen ddyddiau dedwydd gynt" (Welsh for "The good old times"), to live up to our supposed elitism? :p

Red
15th Jan 2011, 11:18
Can't get more hardcore team mp than RTCW. RTCW:ET too, but sligthly less hardcore than RTCW. Plus the setting (WW2) is awesome :)

JCpies
15th Jan 2011, 11:43
I agree that the meaning of hardcore is currently shifting and I will propose the theory that it's now used as the reverse of casual. The middle ground between what should be two extreme is gone so you are either a casual player who is playing Wii Fit or a hardcore gamer who plays Call of Duty.

You consider Call of Duty hardcore? Every jock and their gran is playing CoD.

II J0SePh X II
15th Jan 2011, 17:10
I'm of the belief that it's the game which carries the title "hardcore" or "casual". You could eat, sleep and drink Tetris, but you'll still be a casual gamer. Whereas lounging on your couch, beer in hand, sucking badly at CoD would make you hardcore. Grannies who enjoy a game of Super Meat Boy are members of the masocore.

Mindmute
15th Jan 2011, 18:54
I'm of the belief that it's the game which carries the title "hardcore" or "casual". You could eat, sleep and drink Tetris, but you'll still be a casual gamer. Whereas lounging on your couch, beer in hand, sucking badly at CoD would make you hardcore. Grannies who enjoy a game of Super Meat Boy are members of the masocore.

Where does the notion that simply playing a specific game, no matter how casually, makes you a hardcore gamer in any way come from? Especially COD... Just how is COD "hardcore"?

PillsAgainstOrders
15th Jan 2011, 19:00
1. Adrenaline junkies.

2. Pioneers of difficulty settings.

3. Self challenging inviduals who keep pushing themselfs over their maximum limits.

4. Misused term when trying to describe Pro.

5. A word, tagged on products that are aimed for gamers.

AlexOfSpades
15th Jan 2011, 19:51
If there's UT, there's Spademan, ready to rock and roll.

puzl
15th Jan 2011, 20:25
Hardcore for me is basically someone who puts a lot of themself into whatever they do. It can be time (which in itself, eventually usually results in skill, hence the "pro" gamer), or simply just monetary. Spending £1000 on a new PC just to play DX:HR using a mouse/keyboard interface is it itself it's own kind of hardcore.

Hardcore games encourage a competitive attitude and usually have a wide gamut between someone who is good at it and someone who is amazing at it. Q3A is the best example of a hardcore game, since you can put 1000+ hours into it and still not learn all there is to know.

Single player games can be just as hardcore. Demon's Souls is a good recent example, since it is very difficult and the initial difficulty can be very discouraging. Wanting to finish it and defeat difficult sections encourages the gamer to put the time/effort into beating it, learning patterns. Games like Pac Man can similarly be hardcore if you're aiming for perfect scores and the likes.

In reality though, anything can be hardcore, as long as there is a challenge to achieve something from it, usually in the company of like minded people who push to get more from it. All the games I mentioned can easily be enjoyed by a casual gamer, so there is no such thing as a "hardcore" game as such. It's an ambiguous term and it's subjective. Also, I don't think a "niche" game (aka something with a limited market) is the same as hardcore, but again, thats my opinion :)

Shralla
15th Jan 2011, 21:14
I'm of the belief that it's the game which carries the title "hardcore" or "casual". You could eat, sleep and drink Tetris, but you'll still be a casual gamer. Whereas lounging on your couch, beer in hand, sucking badly at CoD would make you hardcore.

So Tetris is casual, but Call of Duty is hardcore?

What the **** is wrong with you?

JCpies
15th Jan 2011, 21:59
Is walking hardcore? Not really.
But if you're an athlete who competes in walking races who speedwalks every day and trains yourself to the limit in speed walking, could you be considered a hardcore race walker?

Also, if you walk up mountains, deserts and across countries for fun, you could also be called a hardcore walker.

Just saying.

Pinky_Powers
15th Jan 2011, 21:59
I doubt I could be considered Hardcore. I'm not very competitive on a social level. I like to do my part online, but I never push myself to rise to the top.

In single player, however, I'm much more competitive. If a game has quick-save/quick-load, I'll push myself to some form of perfection. If I feel I could do better in any given encounter, I'll replay it again and again until I'm satisfied. Sometimes it feels like a compulsion I don't have control over.

And I always invest deeply into the story and immersion factor.

Montag
15th Jan 2011, 22:39
Q3TA... Hardest of the Hardcore.

I see a hardcore player as one who attempts to learn everything there is to know about a game and actively seeks to improve at the game.

This is different to somebody who plays through a game and gets better at it, the hardcore seeks more added value than simply playing does.

For me this definition allows any type of game to be played by a hardcore player. Tetris can be played hardcore, COD can be played hardcore, Nintendogs can be played hardcore.

Back in the day I counted myself hardcore for Q3. I actively learnt maps, I practiced with friends just moving through the level, really worked at it.

Same as DEx. Non lethal runs, 1 save runs the lot. I would go back and try to refine my line for speed runs, usual stuff.

Now I would class myself as a casual gamer. Still play daily, but mostly single player. I live in the countryside in Peru so internet isn't good enough for online. Still prefer FPSs, done multiple run throughs of Fallout New Vegas since release and have completed virtually every triple A title you can mention on the 360.

To put it into perspective my first Video game was a Binatone Pong. My 2600 was new!!! I am good at games but sadly no longer hardcore.

I have lost the active improvement mindset.

Rheinhold
15th Jan 2011, 22:48
I see some interesting talk here.

The definition of those three points to check... well... most people on this forum check all three I guess.

The few games I played that ever used the word Hardcore were either from id, or is called FallOut NewVegas.
FO:NV Hardcore mode is not really hardcore. It just adds a few extra thingys to check once in a while. Not really worth the label, not in my eyes.
Quake 3. It had a 'hardcore' mode. On 'I can win', 'bring it on' and 'hurt me plenty', the AI was pretty much sleep-walking. In 'hardcore' they started to do what they were supposed to. 'Nightmare' was challenging, but made use of cheats to make the bots better. True, the enemy was a computer. Waht would stop it from aiming flawlessly with the railgun? If correct, you did.
The only real challenge was in MP. Q3 had really good MP. I played it scarcely, so I would not call myself a 'pro' at Q3, but I handled all Ai there was on hardcore mode.

Now, I'd say it is like this:
Veterans: people who have been playing a given game since the beginning, for at least 5 years. Good because they have experience.
Hardcore gamers: people who seem to fit any game. At least better then average in every game they play, and in order to be a hardcore gamer in my eyes, you are looking at 5+ games at the same time at any given time, for years on end. Can also be coined "lifeless nerds". But I think 'hardcore gamer' is more acceptable.
'pro', or professional gamer: people who are part of the absolute top of a certain game. People who have reached a level of skill and experience that they go to gaming competitions for a living.

For the rest, I dont care how media is squirting their soliva all over casual games, calling it 'hardcore'.
I also dont know whther I fit the picture of a hardcore gamer. I leave that to other people to say. To help out a little: I've been playing racing games since 1998 (2D racegames before that. I have played about 15 race titles), I grew up in FPS gaming with Quake 3 (played 10 odd FPS titles), played it since january 2005 for about one and half year. I have been playing RTS games (TA and 3 others) ever since 1998, and ever since 2003, I have been playing games quite intensively: I average about 28 to 30 hours per week nowadays.

PillsAgainstOrders
16th Jan 2011, 00:54
Hardcore is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPkDt6Mfwcc*whoosh-slash-whoosh-slash-bang-cling-whoosh-slash-bang-whoosh-slash-whoosh-slash-bang-cling-cling-cling-cling-whoosh-slash-bang-whoosh-whoosh*

If only there where more games like this.:hmm:

Shralla
16th Jan 2011, 01:35
Hardcore is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPkDt6Mfwcc

Never played gunz...well, you aint 'Hardcore'.

Gunz is retarded. The entire "hardcore" community in that game is based on K-Styling, which is gayer than wavedashing in Smash Bros.

Pretentious Old Man.
16th Jan 2011, 20:47
Well this thread went...differently. :)

AlexOfSpades
16th Jan 2011, 20:57
Gunz is retarded. The entire "hardcore" community in that game is based on K-Styling, which is gayer than wavedashing in Smash Bros.

Just because you cant do it, doesnt mean that it is "gay"

Rheinhold
16th Jan 2011, 21:07
But using a game like GunZ as a yardstick to calling people hardcore?

Nah. Just.... Nah...

UT or Quake - Half-Life - Deus Ex
I think that anyone who dares trying to call himself 'hardcore' must at least have played all three. Plus lots more, of course...

AlexOfSpades
16th Jan 2011, 21:11
I'm an Unreal lover, as my brother is a Quake lover.

So i dont play Quake since its my "rival".

I'm far away from being the best, perhaps i'm the worst UT player in the forum, but i still can duel Godlike bots any day.

UT 99, that is.

JCpies
16th Jan 2011, 21:12
Can anyone suggest any good PC games similar to Deus Ex and HL which are 'old' as in pre 2003?

Rheinhold
16th Jan 2011, 21:25
Ehm... how about Soldier of Fortune (2)?
Return to Castle Wolfenstein?
Or perhaps you like UT or Quake 3?

I can't think of another right now...

Ow and Spades...: isnt it just that UT and Quake are pretty much the same deal? I know, it's not EXACTLY the same deal, but you are still running for dear life in some sort of maze without entrance or exit, trying to shoot guys, picking up guns on the way, ammo, health and powerups? (adrenaline pretty much is like Haste. Does Quad damage have its equal in UT?)

I'd like to know what would make UT better then Quake?

AlexOfSpades
16th Jan 2011, 21:32
)?
Ow and Spades...: isnt it just that UT and Quake are pretty much the same deal? I know, it's not EXACTLY the same deal, but you are still running for dear life in some sort of maze without entrance or exit, trying to shoot guys, picking up guns on the way, ammo, health and powerups? (adrenaline pretty much is like Haste. Does Quad damage have its equal in UT?)

I'd like to know what would make UT better then Quake?

Well, yes, its pretty much the same deal.

Quad Damage is the U-Damage in Unreal (same thing)

However i think that the UT weapons are more variated and strategic (shock combo por example, or charged bio rifle) and the maps are way more variated and realistic (from ships, to forests, to temples) while Quake keeps almost the same color pattern (always metal, rust, blood and some organic thingies).

Just compare DM-Hyperblast (UT's last boss map) to Xaero's map. Hyperblast is a three-leveled spaceship with full interior and exterior ; Xaero's map is a few floating rectangles with no background at all.

But the gameplay is very similar.

Pretentious Old Man.
16th Jan 2011, 21:35
Can anyone suggest any good PC games similar to Deus Ex and HL which are 'old' as in pre 2003?

Hidden and Dangerous 2. Overlook gem of a game, probably my favourite pure fps.

Now, with the level of tactical nuance required from both it and its predecessor, they *were* hardcore.

CoDEllite
16th Jan 2011, 21:51
You consider Call of Duty hardcore? Every jock and their gran is playing CoD.

Well games like Black Ops, Halo Reach and a few other competitive FPS require some serious skill to succeed. That's what makes them hardcore as opposed to some singleplayer-only adventure games coming out these days (Telltale games, Heavy Rain ect).

ZakKa89
16th Jan 2011, 21:53
Haaaahahahaahahahahahaahahaha

Says the man who thinks mirror's edge is too difficult, doesn't surprise me you think you need skill for CoD. You would get slaughtered in Battlefield BC2 or Counterstrike.

Pretentious Old Man.
16th Jan 2011, 22:11
Well games like Black Ops, Halo Reach and a few other competitive FPS require some serious skill to succeed.

http://lolmart.com/files/2010/07/orly.jpg

iPfaQJuWGvU

Try achieving that kind of speed with a pair of analogue sticks and auto-aim.

Rheinhold
16th Jan 2011, 22:12
Haaaahahahaahahahahahaahahaha

Says the man who thinks mirror's edge is to difficult, doesn't siurprise me you think you need skill for CoD. You would get slaughtered in Battlefield BC2 or Counterstrike.


http://images.*********************.com/images/1/12/O_RLY.jpg

iPfaQJuWGvU

Try achieving that kind of speed with a pair of analogue sticks and auto-aim.

You guys get my vote. :thumb:

motsm
17th Jan 2011, 01:08
Unfortunately, you really can't tell just how hard that stuff is in Quake 3 until you try it. Not to mention even something as basic as moving quickly involves 3 buttons synced with subtle mouse movement that has to be planned based on level location and target destination.

Red
17th Jan 2011, 12:44
Yea. I love strafe jumping the most in Q3 engine.

TrickyVein
17th Jan 2011, 15:21
UT all the way, baby. When it comes to hardcore, I play with my FOV set to around 120 degrees (like how the alien sees in Fincher's Aliens 3).

I'm working on finishing a map for UT3: a remake of eternal caves. When it gets closer to completion I'll post some pics and hopefully have something to share with y'all. Or maybe just those who still play UT3. Purely self-promotional.

AlexOfSpades
17th Jan 2011, 15:53
I'm working on finishing a map for UT3: a remake of eternal caves.

I love you

sonicsidewinder
17th Jan 2011, 17:03
Gunz is retarded. The entire "hardcore" community in that game is based on K-Styling, which is gayer than wavedashing in Smash Bros.

lmao! I know right?

It was just a play on words due to the song name.

Pinky_Powers
17th Jan 2011, 18:05
I'm an Unreal lover, as my brother is a Quake lover.

So i dont play Quake since its my "rival".

I'm far away from being the best, perhaps i'm the worst UT player in the forum, but i still can duel Godlike bots any day.

UT 99, that is.

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/214699599_UMQPh-L-2.jpg

Mindmute
17th Jan 2011, 19:30
Off Topic Post!


Managed to dig up my old copy of UT, so if you guys are still up for it, then so am I ;)

St. Mellow
17th Jan 2011, 19:48
I'm just waiting for it. Was playing some 2004 earlier. Man, those skillz degrade fast.

TrickyVein
17th Jan 2011, 20:05
2004...what a cluster****. Those acrobatics. I remember playing against some dude online, for like three minutes we just dodged, wall dodged, strafed, trying to hit each other with god knows what and neither of us could land a blow. I think he finally put me down. :hmm:

A map I made for UT2004 right before insite died (http://insite.beyondunreal.com/map.php?id=1333).

Rheinhold
17th Jan 2011, 23:32
Dunno wehere to get the UT version you guys are planning to play... I'd like to get in that mix and see how my arena skills are nowadays...

AlexOfSpades
17th Jan 2011, 23:45
2004...what a cluster****. Those acrobatics. I remember playing against some dude online, for like three minutes we just dodged, wall dodged, strafed, trying to hit each other with god knows what and neither of us could land a blow. I think he finally put me down. :hmm:

A map I made for UT2004 right before insite died (http://insite.beyondunreal.com/map.php?id=1333).




Map Author: Icarus



Icarus eh...

So you knew about the Icarus symbols in DXHR even back in 2004?

pha
18th Jan 2011, 00:02
Dunno wehere to get the UT version you guys are planning to play... I'd like to get in that mix and see how my arena skills are nowadays...

If you don't have UT, you can buy "Unreal Anthology" which has UT, UT2004, Unreal, and Unreal 2. It's one of the best game compilations alongside The Orange Box.

sonicsidewinder
18th Jan 2011, 02:21
If you don't have UT, you can buy "Unreal Anthology" which has UT, UT2004, Unreal, and Unreal 2. It's one of the best game compilations alongside The Orange Box.

But is it 'hardcore'? :nut:

TrickyVein
18th Jan 2011, 02:48
Icarus eh...

So you knew about the Icarus symbols in DXHR even back in 2004?

I foresaw the entire thing. :rolleyes:

I did mean for my user-name to be a reference to DX though. That was before the visit to the doctor...

Rheinhold
18th Jan 2011, 11:48
If you don't have UT, you can buy "Unreal Anthology" which has UT, UT2004, Unreal, and Unreal 2. It's one of the best game compilations alongside The Orange Box.

With UT, you mean UT99, right???
I hope it runs on W7 then...

pha
18th Jan 2011, 14:14
Yes, UT=UT99, unless you're a next gen nooblet who calls Fallout 3 "Fallout". :D It works fine on my computer with Win7x64 out of the box, but if you have any problems feel free to send me a PM.

Rheinhold
18th Jan 2011, 14:31
Don't you worry, I am NOT that new generation, I was merely verifying, because I am new to the whole UT thingy. (Having learned the FPS games with Doom, Deus Ex and Quake 3. Fun combo for beginners...)

AlexOfSpades
18th Jan 2011, 15:00
UT99 works even inside a memory stick.

This way i can open my UnrealED anywhere!

Rheinhold
18th Jan 2011, 16:29
UT99 works even inside a memory stick.

This way i can open my UnrealED anywhere!

You lucky man...

...so you are a hardcore mod builder? :D

sonicsidewinder
19th Jan 2011, 00:19
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-mPnmfrm6I :whistle:

Rheinhold
19th Jan 2011, 18:04
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-mPnmfrm6I :whistle:

Ow yeah....

By the way, I just tried the demo of UT99. I think the graphics are not on par with Quake 3, and the gameplay felt a bit less polished to me.
I know its not much of a victory, but for starters, I tried the 'experienced' bots. So I tried the 'Godlike' bots for challenge after finishing the demo in a blink. It was different enough from Quake to have me lose that round. :D

TrickyVein
19th Jan 2011, 19:57
UT99 works even inside a memory stick.

This way i can open my UnrealED anywhere!

All of the assets for the game fit onto a stick? :scratch:

Wait. ;)

That was 10 years ago when *checking my system now* games were only ~ less than or close to a gig. My C:/Unreal Tournament folder is 1.03G. So it could fit on flash USB, correct.

Wow. Mapping for UT99 at a public work-terminal. :nut:

Shralla
19th Jan 2011, 20:51
I was playing Quake 3 and UT off flash drives on school computers like seven years ago.

Rheinhold
20th Jan 2011, 08:48
Hehe... that is such a gooood idea!

I think Ima buy myself a memory stick for this purpose.