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viletomato
10th Dec 2010, 12:59
Since there is all this negative talk about third person view, why not have it as an option for the player?

I remember the spy drone in Deus Ex 1 where you could fly the thingy to where ever and explode it. Well if you fly it back to JC you can see him.... Why not extend the idea as having the third person point of view as a drone augmentation. When you deploy it you can see Adam a little further away to allow for the idea of the 3rd person cover system, it gives the advantage of extra sight without pulling the player out of the "immersion". It's a more of a psychological thing, if you believe you are seeing it through the eyes of a drone rather than the game itself it seems to be a more immersive experience? Maybe add a little interface window or tint the screen colour or something to let the player know it is a drone sight.

So the benefits are:
- Allows the player to have the option of 3rd person view, if you don't like it simply don't augment yourself with it
- Allows more immersive experience if you have it as a drone instead of the game camera. (this is debatable since people different preferences)

Negatives
-Kinda weird for those 3rd person take downs.... unless Adam has some fetish of recording his gruesome take downs but I don't think it'll be much of problem if you just add a first person option for the take downs.


What do you think? Too much work for nothing? or do you think it'll work?

K^2
10th Dec 2010, 13:16
I honestly don't care what spin they put on 3rd person if it's optional. But it's not. So what's the point of this?

SageSavage
10th Dec 2010, 14:06
I'd find a fully realized SpyDrone pretty interesting. One that you could monitor as PiP (picture in picture) with your HUD but that can also be toggled to fullscreen. The drone can be configured to auto-follow to provide "hindsight" (upgradable with a defense system) or manually controlled by the player to explore dangerous terrain. It could also be upgraded to record (audio/video/images) or auto-explore/scan the area for potentially interesting stuff.

Ashpolt
10th Dec 2010, 14:19
Make it optional you say? Please everyone you say? What a splendid idea!

Yeah, this is pretty much what people have been suggesting on here for two years. EM decided that options are bad though, and we should be forced to watch Adam do his Cool Moves (tm) in third person. As a reward. A reward that we don't want.

[FGS]Shadowrunner
10th Dec 2010, 14:54
Can't say if I want options, until I tried it, but having it as an augmentation sounds like a bad idea to me.

The ONLY thing so far, that I didn't like the look of, was getting extra cash in the game if you purchase a particular edition. Having options like TP as augs, would further lessen the Deus Ex-ness of the experience I think.

K^2
10th Dec 2010, 15:09
EM decided that options are bad though, and we should be forced to watch Adam do his Cool Moves (tm) in third person. As a reward. A reward that we don't want.
Oh, yes. Climbing ladders. That should be rewarded every single time with a nice view of Adam's posterior. How could we ever live without that.

It's like they have a quota for stupid, and after they including tetris inventory, they had to go out of their way to fulfill it.

That's the part that bothers me more than anything, perhaps. With IW, almost every single decision was a bad one. With HR, there is just enough done right to make you feel like everything that's wrong is just downright intentional.

Happy
10th Dec 2010, 15:13
Yay - another third person discssion thread - I've so misseed them.

Sorry OP.

El_Bel
10th Dec 2010, 16:13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_16Uuy4lQQ


First person take downs.

Much better and more brutal then stupid dancing Adam takedown's we see in Human Regeneration.

Crane
10th Dec 2010, 16:19
Make it optional you say? Please everyone you say? What a splendid idea!

Yeah, this is pretty much what people have been suggesting on here for two years. EM decided that options are bad though, and we should be forced to watch Adam do his Cool Moves (tm) in third person. As a reward. A reward that we don't want.

Look, people keep saying that they think it should be optional, but do you actually realise how much extra work it would entail?

They'd have to create different animations for every action that can be performed both in third/first person (believe me, what looks fine from one perspective often looks awful from the other).
They'd quite likely have to balance the game differently between the two vision modes to account for the difference in peripheral vision and situational awareness.
They'd have to create a whole new set of viewmodels for things like ladder climbing and takedowns.
Oh, and they'd have to program it, as well.

It is not a trivial "Oh, let's just enable this hidden option!" kind of thing, not if you want to have it look professional and work properly with the rest of the game.

El_Bel
10th Dec 2010, 16:24
I just dont want to see Adam's ass every time i climb a ladder. Dont tell me that this needs extra work.
The i would like a crowbar, a sword or a batton, that way i would not need the takedowns. No extra work.
Finally i would like to jump down from height, without taking any damage, without triggering a 3d person switch. How hard is that?

K^2
10th Dec 2010, 16:27
Yeah... It's really not that much work. Having takedowns in 1st and 3rd, yeah, that'd take some extra animations and some minimum extra code. And I think, people would have been Ok with takedowns always being 3rd person. Maybe not happy with it, but accepting it. Everything else could have been optional with no extra effort.

WildcatPhoenix
10th Dec 2010, 16:33
Yeah... It's really not that much work. Having takedowns in 1st and 3rd, yeah, that'd take some extra animations and some minimum extra code. And I think, people would have been Ok with takedowns always being 3rd person. Maybe not happy with it, but accepting it. Everything else could have been optional with no extra effort.

I can't tell if third person takedowns bother me more than third person cover. I'm pretty sure they both bother me equally.

Third person ladder climbing is just utterly dumb and unnecessary. At least with the takedowns we see Adam using his augmented abilities. I'm pretty sure you don't need augmented arms or legs to climb a ladder though. :hmm:

LeMoN_LiMe
10th Dec 2010, 16:56
Well if you're going to go down that rode then make TPV an option instead of an Augmentation. You know, like in the pause menu? Assuming there is one of course. Then people don't have to spend their XP points just to change their view.

Seeeeeeeeeee?

Ashpolt
10th Dec 2010, 17:32
Look, people keep saying that they think it should be optional, but do you actually realise how much extra work it would entail?

Firstly, these people are being paid to do this. It's their living. "It's hard work" is not a valid excuse for not doing something.

Second, before you make the inevitable misguided response to the above: yes, it's too late to be complaining now. This close to release they can't change it. But there's been a vocal community on this forum complaining about third person since the very day it was announced. They've had more than enough time to implement an alternative system.

Finally, do you have any idea how much work implementing contextual third person cover and ridiculous twirly death animations was in the first place? If we're talking purely in terms of minimising unnecessary workload, simply keeping the game in first person from the start would've been the way to do that.

IOOI
10th Dec 2010, 18:17
I honestly don't care what spin they put on 3rd person if it's optional. But it's not. So what's the point of this?

Yes, I agree with you, but now ideas are pouring and I'll write them. :cool:


I'd find a fully realized SpyDrone pretty interesting. One that you could monitor as PiP (picture in picture) with your HUD but that can also be toggled to fullscreen. The drone can be configured to auto-follow to provide "hindsight" (upgradable with a defense system) or manually controlled by the player to explore dangerous terrain. It could also be upgraded to record (audio/video/images) or auto-explore/scan the area for potentially interesting stuff.

Here's another take.



Spy Bug/Drone

-can be attached to a target (on the sholder of a person, to record door codes and login info; on a bot, to scramble/disable; on other surfaces, to record info, take pictures or scout);
-production is energy dependent - the more energy you have, the more spy bugs can be produced;
-It has a limited use (battery life/effective range/number of recordings) - you can manually drive the spy bug, but you have a certain amount of time (or until its energy runs off, meaning that as long it is landed it will not use energy) to attach it to a person/bot/surface (on a person, it will climb automatically to the sholder to give a good view of the NPC typing codes or login info on a PC screen; on a bot, the player will choose which part he wants to damage), when attached it can only be used once in its original form (eg: one door code record only) and more than once when upgraded (eg: two door code records), which will cost more energy to produce.

-upgrade: wider effective range (or prolonged battery life);
-upgrade: lets you lock on targets - no need for manual driving;
-upgrade: lets you scramble/damage bots (bigger bots need more than one spy bug in order to be disabled, but still can be damaged if only one spy bug is used - Damage examples: weapon malfunction; restrained movements; sensor/camera malfunction)

-once the spy bug use ends, it falls off the persons sholder and "meltsdown" giving it the appearance of a small piece of metal (like a tie clip). For comical and practical effects, the sound made once the spy bug hits the ground will serve to confuse the NPC(s) nearby, and after the NPC notices the small piece of metal on the floor he will reach it to pick it up, creating an opportunity for the player to sneak past the NPC or Knock him out; for further comical effect, some NPCs might use a flyswatter to destroy the bug :D , which, once destroyed, will gain the appearance of a small piece of metal.

K^2
10th Dec 2010, 18:40
I can't tell if third person takedowns bother me more than third person cover. I'm pretty sure they both bother me equally.
Well, I'm sort of seeing takedown options as existing solely for the purpose of showing off cool moves. Nobody's stopping you from sneaking up and shooting the guy in the head point-blank with a crossbow. So these seem more cinematic, and perhaps a cheap trick for less-skilled players than actually useful augs.

So if they ran the game with reasonable AI, which doesn't magically know where you are hiding unless you have cover enabled, and they made takedowns purely cosmetic, and these would be the only times I'd see 3rd person, I could play around it. Maybe not with as much convenience as I would if it was built around pure FPS, but I wouldn't be grinding my teeth over it.

The cut scenes... I could have learned to accept them. But ladders were the last straw. Or more of a shot to the head, seeing how it's absolutely unavoidable.

Jehuty91
10th Dec 2010, 18:58
Since there is all this negative talk about third person view, why not have it as an option for the player?

I remember the spy drone in Deus Ex 1 where you could fly the thingy to where ever and explode it. Well if you fly it back to JC you can see him.... Why not extend the idea as having the third person point of view as a drone augmentation. When you deploy it you can see Adam a little further away to allow for the idea of the 3rd person cover system, it gives the advantage of extra sight without pulling the player out of the "immersion". It's a more of a psychological thing, if you believe you are seeing it through the eyes of a drone rather than the game itself it seems to be a more immersive experience? Maybe add a little interface window or tint the screen colour or something to let the player know it is a drone sight.

So the benefits are:
- Allows the player to have the option of 3rd person view, if you don't like it simply don't augment yourself with it
- Allows more immersive experience if you have it as a drone instead of the game camera. (this is debatable since people different preferences)

Negatives
-Kinda weird for those 3rd person take downs.... unless Adam has some fetish of recording his gruesome take downs but I don't think it'll be much of problem if you just add a first person option for the take downs.


What do you think? Too much work for nothing? or do you think it'll work?

I know 3rd person has been done to death on this forum, but I think this is a really good idea.

OneUp733
10th Dec 2010, 19:35
If i want third person take-downs,I'd watch an action movie like Rambo.

Angel-A
12th Dec 2010, 00:37
Oh, yes. Climbing ladders. That should be rewarded every single time with a nice view of Adam's posterior. How could we ever live without that.

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/e/6/e6467-1238784341130.jpg

Had to be done.

anunnaki
12th Dec 2010, 09:43
I was playing riddick last night and was surrounded by guards, I broke the one guys neck, took his shank, turned around and used it to stab the other guard all in one take down. That's right, a double take down. When I saw that I was highly impressed, and it just saddened me to know I wont see anything like that in HR. I can understand that some of the take downs wouldn't look very good in first person, but riddick just makes it feel like I really did that myself, mainly because I experienced it first person and first hand. Plus I did it mid action which is something I haven't seen in HR yet. The only double take downs we've seen are done on two unsuspecting guards standing a short distance from one another, as if they were placed there for that exact purpose.

mad825
12th Dec 2010, 09:54
I must confess, I've played Deus Ex in third person once. All you cheaters (or debuggers) know that there is a "cheat" along the lines of 'behindview 1' which allows you to...well go in third person for as long as you like(..okay it wasn't implemented very well but hey!).

I will presume that DXHR will also feature such "cheat" along a similar lines.

K^2
12th Dec 2010, 16:14
I will presume that DXHR will also feature such "cheat" along a similar lines.
Absolutely no reason to think that. Base engine doesn't even have a console. Maybe you'd have some sort of an access if you get into debug menu, but I doubt it'd give you 1st person options for takedowns and stealth. There was no reason to code anything like that.


Had to be done.
Sure. Go ahead and rub your ability to enjoy third-person ladder climbing into our faces...

Crane
12th Dec 2010, 17:20
I just dont want to see Adam's ass every time i climb a ladder. Dont tell me that this needs extra work.

Nope! Making a new set of ladder climbing animations is no work at all!


The i would like a crowbar, a sword or a batton, that way i would not need the takedowns. No extra work.

No, you're right! Making a new weapon model and animations, and the code for it is no extra work!


Finally i would like to jump down from height, without taking any damage, without triggering a 3d person switch. How hard is that?

That one really is a piece of piss, so well done on getting one out of three right.


Firstly, these people are being paid to do this. It's their living. "It's hard work" is not a valid excuse for not doing something.

It's not a valid excuse for the people who'd have to do the work.
It is however, a totally valid reason for their employers not to direct them to spend time on something optional when there are more critical things to work on.


Finally, do you have any idea how much work implementing contextual third person cover and ridiculous twirly death animations was in the first place? If we're talking purely in terms of minimising unnecessary workload, simply keeping the game in first person from the start would've been the way to do that.

You're correct that it would most likely have been less work from an art perspective, but:
Firstly, I'm uncertain that it wouldn't have required more work from a design perspective in order to achieve the same gameplay goals they were aiming for.
Secondly, work you define as unnecessary isn't always going to be unnecessary from the point of view of the designers.

Pinky_Powers
12th Dec 2010, 17:29
Wait one god damn minute! ... There's third-person in this game?! :eek:

TheUnbeholden
13th Dec 2010, 08:50
Make it optional you say? Please everyone you say? What a splendid idea!

Yeah, this is pretty much what people have been suggesting on here for two years. EM decided that options are bad though, and we should be forced to watch Adam do his Cool Moves (tm) in third person. As a reward. A reward that we don't want.

What makes you think EM hasn't already implemented a optional full first person view?

sonicsidewinder
13th Dec 2010, 09:08
Wait one god damn minute! ... There's third-person in this game?! :eek:

Hoo-HAR!!! :P

Ashpolt
13th Dec 2010, 10:57
What makes you think EM hasn't already implemented a optional full first person view?

Assuming you mean "optional fully functional first person view" rather than simply first person at all, as obviously we know first person is in the game to a degree...

...Simply, the fact that they haven't told us about it if it is in there. They've spent a lot of time in interviews defending (poorly, IMO) their decision to use third person for takedowns, the cover system, certain augs and ladder climbing - if there was the option to do these things in first person, they would have mentioned it by now, or at least Kyle would have told us simply to stop the endless debates about it. The game's apparently around 3 months from release, it's not like this kind of thing is still being decided: if the option to disable third person entirely was in there, EM would have spoken about it by now.

Red
13th Dec 2010, 13:44
Wait one god damn minute! ... There's third-person in this game?! :eek:

You didn't know? Man, he's a cool guy and doesn't afraid of anything.

Pinky_Powers
13th Dec 2010, 13:48
What makes you think EM hasn't already implemented a optional full first person view?

They would've screamed it from the rooftops if this were the case... their PR firm would've seen to it. ;)

IOOI
13th Dec 2010, 14:46
The game's apparently around 3 months from release

OT: I read on some gaming site (don't remember which) that it was expected to be released in June or July. If it's true, I hope this delay is for a good reason (to make the game more DX-y, for instance).

Pinky_Powers
13th Dec 2010, 14:58
Hoo-HAR!!! :P

It needed to be said; you know it as well as I. ;)

Ashpolt
13th Dec 2010, 15:38
OT: I read on some gaming site (don't remember which) that it was expected to be released in June or July. If it's true, I hope this delay is for a good reason (to make the game more DX-y, for instance).

I'd have no problem with that as long as, as you say, the time is spent on improving the more DX-y aspects of the game, and not on adding more "sweet" third person takedowns and explosive cinematic moments, or preparing more day-zero DLC.

EM did say that it would be out "early" 2011 though, so June and July wouldn't really count, and they've said that it definitely won't slip. That said, EM are about as good at keeping their word as Nick Clegg - oh-ho! A bit of topical humour for all the Brits on here.

Why did Eidos Montreal cross the road? Because they said they wouldn't!

68_pie
13th Dec 2010, 19:22
That said, EM are about as good at keeping their word as Nick Clegg - oh-ho! A bit of topical humour for all the Brits on here.

man, am I happy I avoided the fee rises

Certis Baliano
13th Dec 2010, 21:22
I don't understand why most people here seem to hate the idea of some third person parts. From the posts I've seen here, it comes off exactly as the reason why males use female characters in games; to avoid "seeing a male character all the time". I don't play games for some girls with big breasts in skimpy outfits; well, I do, but different types of games in a different mindset. I like become the character, even more-so if the character is cool (like Adam).

Making choices and having different approaches to problems definitely helps with that. And if I happen to "be" a cool character, it's natural for me to want to do all kinds of different cool things. First person is a step backwards in that aspect for me.

The other thing that people who don't like the third person parts talk about seems to be messing with the immersion. I guess it's a valid point for them, but it has the opposite effect on me. Also, I've disliked first person ladder climbing for a long time. It just feels so awkward for me. So, to reply to someone earlier - yes, I want to see Adam climb ladders.

Since the points against third person seem to be completely subjective, this post is pretty much completely meaningless; I just want to know if there really are that many people who think differently from me. I think that some parts really are better in first person, such as shooting, but for most other parts - I would love to see them in third person.

Programming and animating both first person and third person points of views is a way to satisfy everyone but it would probably take too much time and money. I have no idea of the technical side though, so this might be complete nonsense. Just don't let small things, such as this bother you and enjoy Deus Ex 3.

viletomato
13th Dec 2010, 21:48
I don't understand why most people here seem to hate the idea of some third person parts. From the posts I've seen here, it comes off exactly as the reason why males use female characters in games; to avoid "seeing a male character all the time". I don't play games for some girls with big breasts in skimpy outfits; well, I do, but different types of games in a different mindset. I like become the character, even more-so if the character is cool (like Adam).

Making choices and having different approaches to problems definitely helps with that. And if I happen to "be" a cool character, it's natural for me to want to do all kinds of different cool things. First person is a step backwards in that aspect for me.

The other thing that people who don't like the third person parts talk about seems to be messing with the immersion. I guess it's a valid point for them, but it has the opposite effect on me. Also, I've disliked first person ladder climbing for a long time. It just feels so awkward for me. So, to reply to someone earlier - yes, I want to see Adam climb ladders.

Since the points against third person seem to be completely subjective, this post is pretty much completely meaningless; I just want to know if there really are that many people who think differently from me. I think that some parts really are better in first person, such as shooting, but for most other parts - I would love to see them in third person.

Programming and animating both first person and third person points of views is a way to satisfy everyone but it would probably take too much time and money. I have no idea of the technical side though, so this might be complete nonsense. Just don't let small things, such as this bother you and enjoy Deus Ex 3.

well the only work that would be extra animation work will be the take downs...because the 3rd person cover system/climbing can easily be first person. Let's just say Eidos has no time for re-animating the take downs, fine. Giving the player an option for first person climbing/cover without messing with the 3rd person takedowns shouldn't be a problem, it just a matter of choice/consistency that has to be made by EM.

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
13th Dec 2010, 21:49
People love to whine about third person, which is funny especially when you consider Deus Ex had plenty of third-person in cut-scenes. They're just looking for something to complain about.

Mindmute
13th Dec 2010, 22:18
People love to whine about third person, which is funny especially when you consider Deus Ex had plenty of third-person in cut-scenes. They're just looking for something to complain about.

Cutscenes and gameplay aren't the same thing. The perpective used for a cutscene isn't going to alter anything about the game's design, however the perspective used for combat/stealth might.

K^2
13th Dec 2010, 23:22
What makes you think EM hasn't already implemented a optional full first person view?
Ability to read and comprehend the written.

People love to whine about third person, which is funny especially when you consider Deus Ex had plenty of third-person in cut-scenes. They're just looking for something to complain about.
You are a disgrace to your user name.

Pinky_Powers
13th Dec 2010, 23:27
Ability to read and comprehend the written.

You are a disgrace to your user name.

He he he. :lol:

You smell nice today.

K^2
13th Dec 2010, 23:52
Thanks. It's my new aftershave.

Angel-A
14th Dec 2010, 01:42
Sure. Go ahead and rub your ability to enjoy third-person ladder climbing into our faces...
you welcome http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8434/cooltrollplz.png

OneUp733
14th Dec 2010, 05:19
Seems Eidos is sold on the idea that the third person deal is gonna help the game succeed.

motsm
14th Dec 2010, 05:50
Seems Eidos is sold on the idea that the third person deal is gonna help the game succeed.Which I'm sure it will, and I don't fault them for implementing it. On the other hand, it's down right enraging that they don't make it optional, and give us a proper first person perspective. They are doing nothing but trading one group for another, albeit, they will indeed find a larger group who drool over the flashy third person stuff, but there is no logical reason any sane person could make for disabling proper first person play.

Deus_Ex_Machina
14th Dec 2010, 06:16
Make it optional you say? Please everyone you say? What a splendid idea!

Yeah, this is pretty much what people have been suggesting on here for two years. EM decided that options are bad though, and we should be forced to watch Adam do his Cool Moves (tm) in third person. As a reward. A reward that we don't want.

In the words of Napoleon:

"We must give them freedom. By force, if necessary."

Pinky_Powers
14th Dec 2010, 15:35
Which I'm sure it will, and I don't fault them for implementing it.

I still don't understand this line of reasoning. If it's a matter of marketing to the masses, the masses are clearly in favor of fully first-person games. The sales for Call of Duty outreach all other titles right now. There is no fiscal logic in implementing third-person.

"I'm thinking about adding in third-person cover, to capitalize on the Gears of War crowd."
"Why GoW? The big bucks are with Call of Duty or Halo."
"But I really like third-person cover"

^... that's the heart of it; a personal inkling.
Rationally, perspective is not a selling point if you look at the principle block busters on the market today...

Call of Duty, Halo, Gears of War, Mass Effect... they all sell really well, and they're very, very different from one another. But if you're not cloning Call of Duty, then you're making "creative decisions"... simple as.

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
14th Dec 2010, 16:24
Cutscenes and gameplay aren't the same thing. The perpective used for a cutscene isn't going to alter anything about the game's design, however the perspective used for combat/stealth might.

Believe me there's plenty of people who would consider the first-person to third-person cutscenes an "immersion breaker". They have and will until this new game where they have more concerns, but really all it amounts to is a lot of whinging about nothing in particular. Those people will still buy the game and line the publishers pockets. ;)

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
14th Dec 2010, 16:28
actually, I've been told not to feed the trolls so I'll leave it at that.

Mindmute
14th Dec 2010, 16:30
Believe me there's plenty of people who would consider the first-person to third-person cutscenes an "immersion breaker". They have and will until this new game where they have more concerns, but really all it amounts to is a lot of whinging about nothing in particular.

I don't think I've seen a single serious post from anyone here argueing against a 3rd person perspective being used in the cutscenes.
I'll even pay you a dinner if you're ever in my stretch of Europe if you can show me one and prove you're not just trying to make another inflamatory "They're just whining for the sake of it" post.

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
14th Dec 2010, 16:45
I don't think I've seen a single serious post from anyone here argueing against a 3rd person perspective being used in the cutscenes.
I'll even pay you a dinner if you're ever in my stretch of Europe if you can show me one and prove you're not just trying to make another inflamatory "They're just whining for the sake of it" post.

There’s plenty of people who said that Deus Ex was a great game and how the devs were wrong to implement third-person in the new game - but specifically FORGOT the fact that the cut-scenes in the first game were third-person. So what I’m saying is these people should learn to adapt with change which is occurring here and they won’t even notice it. It is simply idiotic to complain about third-person mode when your perspective in game is OPTIONAL and not forced. Third-person moves could also be considered cut-scenes as well since you're not in control and you can see the carnage from a cinematic view.

Fluffis
14th Dec 2010, 16:51
There’s plenty of people who said that Deus Ex was a great game and how the devs were wrong to implement third-person in the new game - but specifically FORGOT the fact that the cut-scenes in the first game were third-person.


There were two possible cut-scenes per game (apart from the dialogues); one of which didn't involve JC at all.

So what I’m saying is these people should learn to adapt with change which is occurring here and they won’t even notice it. It is simply idiotic to complain about third-person mode when your perspective in game is OPTIONAL and not forced. Third-person moves could also be considered cut-scenes as well since you're not in control and you can see the carnage from a cinematic view.


Ah, so climbing a ladder can be considered a cut-scene? And taking cover? This is worse than I thought...

Mindmute
14th Dec 2010, 16:51
There’s plenty of people who said that Deus Ex was a great game and how the devs were wrong to implement third-person in the new game - but specifically FORGOT the fact that the cut-scenes in the first game were third-person.

Alright, I think I see where you're coming from, but like I said before, DX having 3rd person on cutscenes had no effect on it's gameplay or level design. Since DX:HR is being specifically built to be played (in part) with a 3rd person view, there's absolutely no way that the overall design of the game won't be affected by it.
To make my point shorter: the perspective in a cutscene has no effect on the gameplay, so saying DX had 3rd person cutscenes is a moot point. Those had no effect on it's gameplay.


It is simply idiotic to complain about third-person mode when your perspective in game is OPTIONAL and not forced.

The optional arguement has lost a LOT of strength as more info was released if you play attention.
Cover is played in 3rd person, some augmentations activate 3rd person when used and even climbing a ladder will cause the perspective to switch.
You could only avoid it if you never take cover, never climb a ladder, never use a takedown and never use some of the augmentations. That's not being optional as much as it is being restrictive.

Pinky_Powers
14th Dec 2010, 16:57
It is simply idiotic to complain about third-person mode when your perspective in game is OPTIONAL and not forced.

I love how you call people trolls and then make comments like this. :rolleyes:

It is not reasonable to still call third-person "optional" at this point. Besides ladder-climbing, you cannot use the cover-system, or the Icarus Landing system, or any number of Augmentations. You cannot avoid third-person entirely, and to avoid it as much as possible you must avoid a good portion of the game.

"Optional" is not the right word for it. You're just embarrassing yourself if you can't grasp this, so at least pretend that you do.

K^2
14th Dec 2010, 18:34
Pinky, you jumped fence?

Also, your cool rationality scares me.

MaxxQ1
14th Dec 2010, 18:41
Pinky, you jumped fence?

Also, your cool rationality scares me.

And his... odd... sense of humour scares *me*. :rasp:

Pinky_Powers
14th Dec 2010, 18:51
Pinky, you jumped fence?

Also, your cool rationality scares me.

Naw, haven't changed sides or anything that dramatic. It's been clear for a long time now that third-person is too prevalent to truly consider "optional".

Don't worry, I'm not cured of my insanity yet; I still don't see it as a real problem of any great consequence. ;)

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
14th Dec 2010, 18:51
There were two possible cut-scenes per game (apart from the dialogues); one of which didn't involve JC at all.

Don't know if you were playing the same game as me but there was dialogue shown from third person all the time . ANd yes I consider those cut-scenes.

I don't see why there's hate for third-person combat moves considering you are not being forced to control the character in third-person.

MaxxQ1
14th Dec 2010, 18:56
Don't know if you were playing the same game as me but there was dialogue shown from third person all the time . ANd yes I consider those cut-scenes.

I don't see why there's hate for third-person combat moves considering you are not being forced to control the character in third-person.

No, you're being forced to *not* have control of Adam. *That's* the issue.

K^2
14th Dec 2010, 19:26
There were two possible cut-scenes per game (apart from the dialogues);

Don't know if you were playing the same game as me but there was dialogue shown from third person all the time.
You have sand in your eyes? Even if you consider dialog to be cut scenes, post you are quoting clearly states that it does not count these. Starting your reply with "Don't know if you were playing the same game" shows either a lack of comprehension fit for a rock, or inability to process letters into words, or maybe some other problem. Whatever it is, solve it, or don't even bother posting.

Besides that inability to form a reply that follows logically from the text you are replying to, you also show the lapse of judgement. Yes, dialog may be considered a form of cut scene. And while we can argue whether dialogs should or should not be done in 3rd person, we have a separate issue. The cut scenes we see when Adam is spying on a conversation from an air duct and the scene with the bomb are entirely different breed of cut scenes. That's not just dialog. That's continuation of game's action, except you loose any kind of control over that action. These sort of cut scenes have only been present in the introduction and finale of Deus Ex, which makes sense, as they play the prologue and epilogue roles. Things that happen outside of your control.

A cut scene that shows your character doing something on his own in the middle of the game, while you are supposed to be playing that character is fundamentally bad. None of the things we've seen so far actually needed a cut scene. Spying from the air shaft could have been done in first person. It worked well enough in IW. And if you don't care to listen, and turn around, that should be your choice. The scene with explosives did not need a cut scene. Create an auto-save point before it. If the player doesn't figure out that he should run when he sees the timer, he'll know better after he reloads the game. That's part of gameplay. Simply being shown how Adam jumps out of window does nothing good for gameplay. It's just another place where the game reminds you that you're just playing the game, and none of what you do has any real consequence, because it has all been scripted for you anyways.

This is the issue. And no, Deus Ex was not perfect. It had problems with obvious scripting, but not anywhere close to this extent. Saying that a bad choice isn't bad because Deus Ex didn't manage to make it perfect either is a moronic argument which can only make sense to someone truly believing the crazy notion that DX fans just want Deus Ex with better graphics. No, we do not. We know that many things can be improved, and we want them improved. Taking a player out of the action completely, and showing him the cool movie of what the EM execs thought the Adam should do in this situation is not improving the game where you are supposed to make your own choices and live with their consequences.

TrickyVein
14th Dec 2010, 19:38
In other words, people need to learn to be quiet when grown folks is talkin'

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
14th Dec 2010, 19:49
In other words, people need to learn to be quiet when grown folks is talkin'

Last time I checked grown folks didn't use insults against other posters which would be complained about if the shoe was on the other foot. It's what happens when someone cannot debate and the result is he tries to exert his insecurity on others online. I had a good chuckle though. :)

The last two paragraphs he actually tried to make a point but from the others why would I bother responding - I;m in the right here when I am already willing to accept change with Human Revolution which other stubborn gamers can't be bothered with and continue to complain about? I play games to enjoy them and if it doesn't look like my cup of tea I simply don't bother.

Mindmute
14th Dec 2010, 19:52
I had a good chuckle though as he also tried to troll me in another thread to no results. ;)

Love it when you simply say he is trolling and completely disregard his points. Not to mention all the others who repplied to you in the last few posts. Were they "trolling" aswell?



I;m in the right here when I am already willing to accept change with Human Revolution which other stubborn gamers can't be bothered with and continue to complain about?

So if all the change was for the worse or had the potencial to be for the worse would you still accept it? Because that's the bottom line here. Most of the people complaining were doing so because the changes will affect their enjoyment of the game. They're not complaining simply for the sake of complaining as you previously implied.


You're suffering from a very bad case of misguided preconceptions and labelling everyone who disagrees with you as a troll. The comment "I'm on the right" is enough to show that you have absolutely no idea what makes a discussion. There *is* a reason why you see various people from the "positive" and "negative" side and none agreed with what you've been saying here.

Know something, fella? Everytime you start throwing those preconceptions around and saying everyone is just whining, especially in this thread where new ideas were actually being discussed at a point, you'rre being a troll.

K^2
14th Dec 2010, 19:53
Stupidity annoys me greatly. I should have better control of myself, though. You're right. Doesn't invalidate anything I said. Unlike some other people that just call you an idiot, I call you an idiot and bring good arguments to support that claim.

BigBoss
14th Dec 2010, 20:55
Last time I checked grown folks didn't use insults against other posters which would be complained about if the shoe was on the other foot. It's what happens when someone cannot debate and the result is he tries to exert his insecurity on others online.

That's pretty much a forum in a nutshell

ZippyDSMlee
14th Dec 2010, 21:41
As long as it dose not take up a slot and is used very early in the story as a extra mechanic that can be turned on/off, it could work.

IOOI
15th Dec 2010, 23:21
Naw, haven't changed sides or anything that dramatic. It's been clear for a long time now that third-person is too prevalent to truly consider "optional".

Don't worry, I'm not cured of my insanity yet; I still don't see it as a real problem of any great consequence. ;)


Voodoo is working, Voodoo is workiiiing!





One day, child, your soul will be mine.

K^2
16th Dec 2010, 00:03
What is that voodoo that you do?

Donvermicelli
16th Dec 2010, 07:49
Nope! Making a new set of ladder climbing animations is no work at all!

So right you are telling me you see yourself when you climb a ladder? it doesn't require new animations because it is first-person. All it requires is placing a new view cam?



No, you're right! Making a new weapon model and animations, and the code for it is no extra work!

Being completly honest with you? I'd have a crowbar, baton and knife modeled and animated within an hour or 3 or so. These items are so simple in design you could ask a kid to make them.




That one really is a piece of piss, so well done on getting one out of three right.

Then let me answer the others correctly.



It's not a valid excuse for the people who'd have to do the work.
It is however, a totally valid reason for their employers not to direct them to spend time on something optional when there are more critical things to work on.


Such as... getting people who are on the edge of decision on wether or not to buy this game to actually buy it? The whole reason they implemented third-person and take-downs was to make it apeal more to the masses in the first place. Why throw these costumers out of the window?



You're correct that it would most likely have been less work from an art perspective, but:
Firstly, I'm uncertain that it wouldn't have required more work from a design perspective in order to achieve the same gameplay goals they were aiming for.

Then perhaps they had the wrong gameplay goals in mind from the beginning.