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Stevostin
5th Dec 2010, 17:14
I am pretty sure it's something that comes up on a regular basis here... But even if it is I feel like the more this is repeated the more the designers will keep this important thing in mind.

The important thing is : for some people, TPS mode may be a nice addition, but to some other, and especially amongst PC old school gamers (you know, those guys who played Deus Ex 1 :P ), TPS just *ruins* the experience. Yup, some of us are seeking for immersion. And believe it or not but it NEVER happen in my life to suddenly see myself from behind, even when crouched behind a crate. So if I start to see the guy I am supposed to be in that world I want to be immersed in, the very second I jump from "just as if I was that guy" view to "you're just playing a video game" view, immersion is instantly broken.

Oh, and it shall also be noted than "take cover" gameplay ala GoW is typically disliked amongst those "PC" gamers. It's slow paced, and it allows to know what happens on the field without taking the risk of being shot, which means no risk/gain decision = ie no gameplay. Slow and dull...

So my point is : I seriously hope all the brilliant work obviously made on DE:HR will not be ruined by not giving the PC gamers the possibility to prevent any TPS action to occure. I don't mind some people playint with it if they want to. Hey, there's even people enjoying Euro Dance. I just don't want to be forced to hear Euro Dance - or to cope with TPS view. That would be really sad to pass on a game with such obviously brillant work on every other aspect.

Pretentious Old Man.
5th Dec 2010, 17:20
It's not just about immersion. Fact of the matter is that TPS games just don't control as well as FPS games do, especially modern day TPSes (with buggered up strafe). If I play shooty-shooty, I want to have the total contol that FP view brings, not the wierd dislocated camera obscura that is TP view.

That, and not immersion, is why I will not be using the cover mechanic in DXHR.

Stevostin
5th Dec 2010, 17:33
Bonus Track
http://www.nofrag.com/2010/dec/05/36361/

Nofrag is the key french website for FPS gamer community. Nearly everyone here likes Deus Ex. Absolutely everyone here is spitting on what is seen on the video. One of the key reason I did not mention is how TPS just kills the inflitration gameplay. Basically it's all based on "I hide based on visual info there's no way I should be able to have while hiding, thanks to 3rd person view". What this video screams loud and clear is "boys, have we screwed up the infiltration gameplay". Typical disastrous cinematic is checking a corridor while not being seen by a goons two meters away from you, knows exactly when he U turns to attack him from behind. In previous Deus Ex doing this would at least requires to hide in shadow or spend something (skill, item) to allows better hiding. Gameplay decision. Here we have the equivalent of a key that would change the head of the closest target into a frying pan before exploding silently. No sense at all, anti immersion, poor gameplay.

Stevostin
5th Dec 2010, 17:35
That, and not immersion, is why I will not be using the cover mechanic in DXHR.

I didn't find anything in the FAQ that says you'll have a choice. From the video above it seems the infiltration gameplay is based on the assumption that you have a natural wallhack.

Pretentious Old Man.
5th Dec 2010, 17:59
I didn't find anything in the FAQ that says you'll have a choice. From the video above it seems the infiltration gameplay is based on the assumption that you have a natural wallhack.

There is choice implicit in the fact that you have to press a cover button to enter cover, and that LoS stealth is unaffected by being in cover or not.

7h30n
5th Dec 2010, 18:02
My cousin plays only FPS games or isometric perspective RPGs/RTS games. For some reason he can't stand third person games (except for driving games). Only TPS he played was Max Payne and he liked it very much but otherwise he steers clear of third person cameras.
Obviously he is PC gamer only.

Thasc
5th Dec 2010, 18:06
In real life, you would have access to a wide range of stimuli that can't be easily represented in games (far better audio locationifying than is offered by most speaker setups, for instance). I don't see much of a problem with trying to emulate that effect by providing additional information via TPS in games.

SPTX
5th Dec 2010, 18:20
First person infiltration mechanics imply you have a key to lean. So we would need need a key to lean.


I don't see much of a problem with trying to emulate that effect by providing additional information via TPS in games

It's a matter of personal feeling.
For example you don't see problem, someone else does. It's the same issue with the field of view. Myself, can't withstand a fov under 90°, I play on an average 100° fov up to 130° and can withstand 180° with only minor issues on a 4/3 screen.

As a PC gamer, what I want is to be able to change the fov, get rid of the terrible post processing effects such as bloom, blur, SSAO (or all other kind of AO), be able to totally remap the keys layout etc etc. Be it from in-game menus or by modifying a game file.

It's not asking too much, it's just delivering quality product adapted to the market.

Jerion
5th Dec 2010, 20:52
First person sneaking works as is; you have the fairly limited radar instead of leaning. If you want to use the cover system you have that option too.

Similarly all the elements are there for smooth first-person gunplay, though if you want to slip into cover for shooting the option is there.

Now if the mod capabilities appear to make the cover system happen in first person with intuitive controls, I'll be very happy. FP cover gives you the peeking flexibility of cover plus the slickness of all FPP.

Red
5th Dec 2010, 21:03
So, you confirm there's no lean keys? Cool, we are finally getting something out of you.

Though not good news.

Jerion
5th Dec 2010, 21:09
So, you confirm there's no lean keys? Cool, we are finally getting something out of you.

Though not good news.

If you held out hope this long for both lean keys and a fully functional cover system, you're delusional.

Kodaemon
5th Dec 2010, 21:13
And you're an *******. There is no obvious reason why tpp cover and lean keys should be mutually exclusive.

Jerion
5th Dec 2010, 21:18
And you're an *******. There is no obvious reason why tpp cover and lean keys should be mutually exclusive.

Maybe I am right now. It seems like I have to be outright with this. At no point have EM indicated the presence of both, or marked that out as a difference between the console and PC versions. Cover System and Lean occupy the same role from a design standpoint, fulfill the same functional purpose. It would be superfluous to have both in the same version of the game.

Dead-Eye
5th Dec 2010, 21:20
lol, finally tells us something and you call him an *******.

As for no lean keys::mad2::mad2::mad2:


It would be superfluous to have both in the same version of the game.
Sept they said the cover system was optional. One would think they would add lean keys for those who don't want to use the cover system. Except that whole thing about the cover system being optional was complete BS as it would appear. Dammit EM this is unforgivable.

Kodaemon
5th Dec 2010, 21:20
Just as it's superfluous to have a tpp cover system in a theoretically first person game.

What I'm wondering is why they didn't go all the way and just make it fully tpp, seeing how they hate first person so much.

EDIT: @Dead-Eye Mods should set an example. Calling someone delusional isn't a nice thing, wouldn't you agree?

Jerion
5th Dec 2010, 21:22
Nothing theoretical about it.

Kodaemon
5th Dec 2010, 21:25
Oh, yeah, I forgot you don't have to use third person if you don't want to.

Shralla
5th Dec 2010, 21:29
This thread. It wasn't old the first dozen times I saw it.

Where's MyImmortal when you need him?

Dead-Eye
5th Dec 2010, 21:29
EDIT: @Dead-Eye Mods should set an example. Calling someone delusional isn't a nice thing, wouldn't you agree?

Yes I agree, but calling a mod an ******* over saying "Hay that's not vary nice!" doesn't really add a whole lot to the situation.

Jerion
5th Dec 2010, 21:30
It's a her.

CoDEllite
5th Dec 2010, 21:36
Who cares about lean key. That's too "old-school". Today most modern FPS games have some sort of cover system that works great. Killzone 2 even.

Fluffis
5th Dec 2010, 21:37
Where's MyImmortal when you need him?

She will be here... :)

Dead-Eye
5th Dec 2010, 21:44
Who cares about lean key? That's too "old-school". Today most modern FPS games have some sort of cover system that works great. Killzone 2 even.
Who's alt troll account are you?

Seriously, who cares about lean keys? Too old school? Maybe they should make a game for you where at any moment you can pause the game and press "take a brake" and the game will beat itself. I mean who needs interactivity! That's too old school. We just want to see explosions and people getting slaughtered, we don't actually need to play the game or use our brains. That's too hard for poor little Johnny Halo.

Pinky_Powers
5th Dec 2010, 21:48
It's a her.

It's amazing that some old members still don't know that.

Jerion
5th Dec 2010, 21:48
Lean keys are free to use anywhere and anywhen, but limited in functionality and presentation. FPP Cover Systems are the way to go, IMO.

Kodaemon
5th Dec 2010, 21:50
Disputable, but it would definitely be better than tpp cover for a theoretically fpp game.

CoDEllite
5th Dec 2010, 21:50
FPP Cover Systems are the way to go, IMO. :thumb:


Disputable, but it would definitely be better than tpp cover for a theoretically fpp game. While I agree that FPP cover system is the way to go for strictly FPS games I don't think it would work for this kind of "rpg shooter" game. The whole point of take downs and cover system is to connect the player with the character you are building in Human Revolution (be able to view all the augs you upgraded, and their visual effectiveness). So tpp cover is probably best suitable for a "Mass Effect-wannabe" such as Human Revolution :) .

Jerion
5th Dec 2010, 21:55
@Kodaemon:

On a purely functional level, a player can do more with a cover system than with lean keys. Lean lets you view left and right around things. Cover lets you view left and right around things, as well as over them. ;)

Kodaemon
5th Dec 2010, 21:56
Except, I can view over things by, you know, not crouching.

Jerion
5th Dec 2010, 21:58
Except, I can view over things by, you know, not crouching.

Yeah, but then you're fully exposed which defeats the point.

Dead-Eye
5th Dec 2010, 22:00
Lean keys are free to use anywhere and anywhen, but limited in functionality and presentation. FPP Cover Systems are the way to go, IMO.

But there is no FPP cover system. Sure I agree, if they added an FPP cover system then lean keys would be pointlessly redundant. But they didn't. Instead they added a system that completely destroys any thought about having any kind of imersive simulator and then they tell us it's optional only to come out later and say "Hay we lied, we really don't give a **** about you hardcore DX fans. You'll just buy the game anyway."

God EM, go suck a ****.

Kodaemon
5th Dec 2010, 22:01
No, I'm not, my lower half is covered. Unless you're talking about blindfiring, which yeah, I would like the option.

IF it was actual blindfiring, mind you.

Jerion
5th Dec 2010, 22:03
Stand up, your torso and head provide a big target. Cover against a cubicle wall, peer up and over with your gun, and your head makes a small target. Same effect as leaning vs. crouch strafing.

Shralla
5th Dec 2010, 22:05
But there is no FPP cover system.

:|

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gc-09-red-orchestra/55367

Dead-Eye
5th Dec 2010, 22:07
:|

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gc-09-red-orchestra/55367

Did you even read my post?

Shralla
5th Dec 2010, 22:09
Did you even read my post?

Haha, nope. I read your first line and for some reason equated it to "they don't exist."

Kodaemon
5th Dec 2010, 22:10
@Jerion That's just not how cover systems work in games.

Standard tpp cover system: get to conveniently placed chest-high wall, press cover, watch your character crouch behind cover, and pop up when you start shooting, exposing about as much as you would while just standing. Or, you have the option to "blindfire", which here means you-can-see-fine-you-just-have-a-bigger-spread-fire

ZakKa89
5th Dec 2010, 22:11
The darkness had a firstperson cover system as well it was kind off refreshing

Kodaemon
5th Dec 2010, 22:12
Also Call of Juarez 2 for a game that's on PC.

Jerion
5th Dec 2010, 22:17
@Jerion That's just not how cover systems work in games.

Standard tpp cover system: get to conveniently placed chest-high wall, press cover, watch your character crouch behind cover, and pop up when you start shooting, exposing about as much as you would while just standing. Or, you have the option to "blindfire", which here means you-can-see-fine-you-just-have-a-bigger-spread-fire

I think you need to experience this system I'm referencing.

Kodaemon
5th Dec 2010, 22:26
Which one is that?

Bluey71
5th Dec 2010, 22:44
First person sneaking works as is; you have the fairly limited radar instead of leaning.


If an NPC is stood still, does the radar show you the direction the NPC is facing?

K^2
5th Dec 2010, 22:47
I never really used lean keys in the original. Didn't feel the need to. I suppose if you are used to having them, it might be a bit of a drag, but it's really not that difficult to get around it in first person.

Stevostin
5th Dec 2010, 23:07
Thank you for the reply, Jerion.


First person sneaking works as is; you have the fairly limited radar instead of leaning. If you want to use the cover system you have that option too.

Similarly all the elements are there for smooth first-person gunplay, though if you want to slip into cover for shooting the option is there.

Now if the mod capabilities appear to make the cover system happen in first person with intuitive controls, I'll be very happy. FP cover gives you the peeking flexibility of cover plus the slickness of all FPP.

I am not sure what is the "radar". That being said, leaning doesn't mean invisible. You can be seen. Radar, or cover, you can't.

I assume from what you say here that if I crouch in first person behind a cover, I am as efficiently covered as if I were taking cover in TPS view ? More generally, I understand playtesting involves making sure there's an enjoyable and working way of playing all scenes of the game with no 3rd person view at all (except dialog). Would you confirm that ?

Xuri
5th Dec 2010, 23:11
On a purely functional level, a player can do more with a cover system than with lean keys. Lean lets you view left and right around things. Cover lets you view left and right around things, as well as over them. ;)

That's exactly what people who don't like this cover system (including me) are complaining about. You should't be able to see the enemies while they can't see you. It makes things too easy.
I mean, I love situations like "I'm hearing voices (or footsteps), I shall lean to see what's going on, and... oh crap they saw me! I have to fight now".
There's always a risk when you lean that the enemy sees you if he's not too far and looking at your direction. This is what makes infiltration exiting, you don't see everything, you don't know what's waiting for you.
With the cover system, you can see the enemy's moves without taking any risk, staying safe behind your crate. You can safely wait for the enemy to make a U turn so you can sneek up on him a make a kill move.

Overall I think this system ruins gameplay (making things easier/less exiting), and immersion (how can I see someone who has no chance of seeing me).



PS: first post yay

fullhealth
5th Dec 2010, 23:22
You are 100% correct Xuri.

There are things that can make up for the third person cheating, as demonstrated by MGS and Splinter Cell. Though such things are not an option in our modern, games are interactive movies world.

Regardless I'm sure you'll enjoy the defenders jumping ontop of you with such great and hole-proof arguments as "but you can not use third person", "you don't know if the AI is dumb", "they said enemies will flank you", "third personmeans I don't have to backtrack for 5 hours just to find a medkit" and "immersion can mean anything, your elitist view of immersion is an opinion"

biofuel
5th Dec 2010, 23:27
Man threads like these are just ridiculous! and dull..

thedosbox
6th Dec 2010, 00:28
and especially amongst PC old school gamers (you know, those guys who played Deus Ex 1 :P )


Those old school gamers can remember the complaints when 3D made first person the "normal" view. Complaints about perspective were old then, and they're old now.



Oh, and it shall also be noted than "take cover" gameplay ala GoW is typically disliked amongst those "PC" gamers. It's slow paced, and it allows to know what happens on the field without taking the risk of being shot, which means no risk/gain decision = ie no gameplay. Slow and dull...


DX1 was never a fast paced game in the same way the Unreal Tournament games were. Go play "Medal of Duty Grey Brown and more Brown" if that's what you're looking for.

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 00:57
OMFG no lean keys! The very thought.

You have optional 3rd person cover, and first person which works exactly the bloody same as DX sans lean keys. EM how could you you absolute monsters!

(groan)

K^2
6th Dec 2010, 01:22
Those old school gamers can remember the complaints when 3D made first person the "normal" view. Complaints about perspective were old then, and they're old now.
I don't know if you're remembering wrong, or just making stuff up, but that's not even close to what happened. First of all, the first 3D games were isometric platformers and simulators. Platformers were and remained third-person. The few games that tried first-person platforming never became popular. Simulators were and remained first-person, because third-person simulator just doesn't make sense.

When Wolfenstein 3D and subsequently Doom popularized FPS, it was a start of the new genre. There was never such a thing as third-person shooter before the first-person shooter. There were no complaints about a perspective change because there was never a perspective change. There were complaints over the fact that everyone started rolling out first person shooters, most of which were crap, rather than developing good games in any genre. That was a valid complaint then, and it remains a valid complaint now. Genre du jour changes, but the point is the same.

Yes, 3rd person shooters and slashers currently make up the bulk of the cheap crappy games that are being rolled out. And yes, that's part of the reason why people react negatively to 3rd person view. But if that was the only reason, the initial backlash would have died out as soon as first footage appeared. If it was simply a fear of the game being turned into a cheap generic, people would've calmed down by now. Instead, complaints only amplified when people saw how often view switches back and forward.

People don't want 3rd person view for the same reasons why first person platforming failed and why 3rd person flight simulators never existed and never will. That's not the experience people who liked Deus Ex want. They want to experience the game from first person, where they can feel like they are part of the environment, rather than watching it from perspective of incredibly dexterous camera-man.

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 01:51
Why do people who create the 'we hate 3rd person cover' always disregard the increased enemy difficulty that will come along with improved enemy AI and sight distance? Why does that never factor into the equation?
They've given you cover which allows you to see others before they see you, in either first or 3rd person. Why is that? Because if the enemy sees you at the same time you see them, they will blow your frikkin head off. It's a balancing issue. The radar and 3rd person don't make the game too easy, they just stop it from being too hard.

IOOI
6th Dec 2010, 01:57
I don't know if you're remembering wrong, or just making stuff up, but that's not even close to what happened. First of all, the first 3D games were isometric platformers and simulators. Platformers were and remained third-person. The few games that tried first-person platforming never became popular. Simulators were and remained first-person, because third-person simulator just doesn't make sense.

When Wolfenstein 3D and subsequently Doom popularized FPS, it was a start of the new genre. There was never such a thing as third-person shooter before the first-person shooter. There were no complaints about a perspective change because there was never a perspective change. There were complaints over the fact that everyone started rolling out first person shooters, most of which were crap, rather than developing good games in any genre. That was a valid complaint then, and it remains a valid complaint now. Genre du jour changes, but the point is the same.

Yes, 3rd person shooters and slashers currently make up the bulk of the cheap crappy games that are being rolled out. And yes, that's part of the reason why people react negatively to 3rd person view. But if that was the only reason, the initial backlash would have died out as soon as first footage appeared. If it was simply a fear of the game being turned into a cheap generic, people would've calmed down by now. Instead, complaints only amplified when people saw how often view switches back and forward.

People don't want 3rd person view for the same reasons why first person platforming failed and why 3rd person flight simulators never existed and never will. That's not the experience people who liked Deus Ex want. They want to experience the game from first person, where they can feel like they are part of the environment, rather than watching it from perspective of incredibly dexterous camera-man.

You should know this by now, but I share the same view or ,better saying, the same perspective. :thumb:

mad_red
6th Dec 2010, 02:02
Why do people who create the 'we hate 3rd person cover' always disregard the increased enemy difficulty that will come along with improved enemy AI and sight distance? Why does that never factor into the equation?
They've given you cover which allows you to see others before they see you, in either first or 3rd person. Why is that? Because if the enemy sees you at the same time you see them, they will blow your frikkin head off. It's a balancing issue. The radar and 3rd person don't make the game too easy, they just stop it from being too hard.

So if you designed a game, you would first balance the game, and then decide whether you're making a FPS or a TPS? Sounds a bit odd. Let me think.

Hmmm.... I find the Thief series a bit hard. They should've been in third person. Some racing games are a bit harder than others, better switch to third person so you can see the bends coming. Landing airplanes in flight sim games and the like has also been a bit tricky. Best automatically switch to third person as soon as the gear is down. Oh and Chronicles of Riddick of course. Definitely third person.

On second thought, nah your kind of reasoning doesn't appeal to me after all.

K^2
6th Dec 2010, 02:04
Why do people who create the 'we hate 3rd person cover' always disregard the increased enemy difficulty that will come along with improved enemy AI and sight distance? Why does that never factor into the equation?
Suppose they made combat "push X to win", but kept the controller in a tub of boiling hot water. It'd be at least just as difficult to win. Probably more so. Would you still enjoy the game?

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 02:09
I'm not saying that those design decisions were right. But what would you do to compensate for the increased difficulty? The fact is you could take a peak quite easily in DX because the guards were too blind to see you from not very far away. You don't actually want the miopic and stupid enemies from DX do you?

IOOI
6th Dec 2010, 02:16
Why do people who create the 'we hate 3rd person cover' always disregard the increased enemy difficulty that will come along with improved enemy AI and sight distance? Why does that never factor into the equation?
They've given you cover which allows you to see others before they see you, in either first or 3rd person. Why is that? Because if the enemy sees you at the same time you see them, they will blow your frikkin head off. It's a balancing issue. The radar and 3rd person don't make the game too easy, they just stop it from being too hard.

Because you're missing the FP simulation part. It has been said before that it would be more faithful to DX if there were tools that allowed you to see around concealment while in FP (mini-camera, mirror, Cornershot... ).

If you are able to see every enemy position while in TP cover, there's a loss of the surprise effect of not knowing from where the enemy comes from.

And yes it's a balancing issue. You can balance AI to use with TP or FP. But what should matter most is delivering a similar experience to DX.

motsm
6th Dec 2010, 02:17
The radar and 3rd person don't make the game too easy, they just stop it from being too hard.Nope.

Also, so is it confirmed that the radar is a starting aug and can't be removed? This game really just keeps getting better and better.

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 02:19
Nope.

Also, so is it confirmed that the radar is a starting aug and can't be removed? This game really just keeps getting better and better.

"Nope." Well can't argue with that logic. Damn you got me there.

motsm
6th Dec 2010, 02:21
"Nope." Well can't argue with that logic. Damn you got me there.'Nope' is purely my opinion, so why do I need facts to back up an opinion? I also don't see you with any proof of more challenging AI.

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 02:22
Because you're missing the FP simulation part. It has been said before that it would be more faithful to DX if there were tools that allowed you to see around concealment while in FP (mini-camera, mirror, Cornershot... ).

If you are able to see every enemy position while in TP cover, there's a loss of the surprise effect of not knowing from where the enemy comes from.

And yes it's a balancing issue. You can balance AI to use with TP or FP. But what should matter most is delivering a similar experience to DX.

I'm not missing anything. I'm not arguing that 3rd person is a better option, i'm simply suggesting that they did it because it was a solution to a balancing problem. Not the best solution.

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 02:23
Well, what are you arguing with? I've seen no facts to back up your claims of more challenging AI, so I figured I'd stick with the same train of thought as you.

You're right. It's going to have the same crappy AI as a 10 yr old game. You win. I feel so silly.

IOOI
6th Dec 2010, 02:25
I'm not saying that those design decisions were right. But what would you do to compensate for the increased difficulty? The fact is you could take a peak quite easily in DX because the guards were too blind to see you from not very far away. You don't actually want the miopic and stupid enemies from DX do you?

Why do some of you bring only DX to compare to HR, when there are other FP games outhere that have been improving some features? If you want to compare AI for gunfights, for instance, why don't some of you refer to GRAW games?


I can see the patterns.

motsm
6th Dec 2010, 02:34
You're right. It's going to have the same crappy AI as a 10 yr old game. You win. I feel so silly.No one said it wasn't going to be improved in general intelligence from Deus Ex, but that doesn't mean it will be more challenging. Also, if it had more challenging AI and first person stealth, it would be a real improvement, real progress. Don't you think games should make some progress after 10 years instead of simply dumbing down one thing and compensating for it with something else?

Your using the same silly argument as so many people are using for take downs "Oh yeah, cuz whacking them over the head with a crappy animation is soOO much better than third person take downs". As if to say no game developer could make knocking someone out in first person look good, and they'd have to use the same horrible animations from a 10 year old game that didn't even look good when it was released. This logic is painful to listen to.

[FGS]Shadowrunner
6th Dec 2010, 02:34
I loved the AI in DX1 :D There's nothing more hilarious than MJ12 throwing a lam at themselves.

No-one seems to have picked up on the fact that there is Third Person in DX1.

Commands
behindview 1
behindview 0

It's actually a very useful command in multiplayer, used by most players.
For the same reasons, stealth and dragon's tooth takedowns.
So third person is nothing new to DX to be honest.

IOOI
6th Dec 2010, 02:42
XITER!!! :p

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 02:43
Also, if it had more challenging AI and first person stealth, it would be a real improvement, real progress. Don't you think games should make some progress after 10 years instead of simply dumbing down one thing and compensating for it with something else?

Balancing difficulty has nothing to do with not progressing the games mechanics. The game being harder isn't actually an 'improvement' unless you thought the first one was too easy.

lithos
6th Dec 2010, 02:45
I wouldn't really call the use of the command console playing the game as designed. thereisnospoon is still the best command, though.

The real test of HR revolution, in my opinion, as to whether it's a developer's wanting to show off their skills and force everyone to watch how awesome they are or if they want to create a game that will be fun for all players, is whether there will be two options in the Settings menu: "Cinematic Takedowns: On/Off" and "Cover System: On/Off."

That's it. Everyone wins that way. It's not hard to implement. So far, there's been little communication from EM as to what's happening with regard to that.

Because Deus Ex is meant to be about choice, right?

motsm
6th Dec 2010, 02:55
Balancing difficulty has nothing to do with not progressing the games mechanics. The game being harder isn't actually an 'improvement' unless you thought the first one was too easy.Having more intelligent AI can be balanced in much more subtle ways is all I am saying. There is no need to go straight to a third person view and a radar, as that imbalances the game in the other direction, no matter how good the AI is. I'm not even arguing against the option of a third person camera anyway. I just find it unbearably frustrating that they don't allow the proper use of a first person camera.

I don't see how anyone could argue against entirely optional mechanics, but they keep needlessly shoving crap down our throats. It doesn't even make sense from a sales perspective, so making features optional will only do them good. They seem to be actively against more challenging game play regardless if it's a player choice, so that puts me actively against them.

K^2
6th Dec 2010, 03:02
Shadowrunner;1535491']I loved the AI in DX1 :D There's nothing more hilarious than MJ12 throwing a lam at themselves.

No-one seems to have picked up on the fact that there is Third Person in DX1.

Commands
behindview 1
behindview 0

It's actually a very useful command in multiplayer, used by most players.
For the same reasons, stealth and dragon's tooth takedowns.
So third person is nothing new to DX to be honest.
Nobody has any objections to optional 3rd person view, either. If there was a toggle button, or an option, or a command line, there would be no complaining.

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 03:05
Having more intelligent AI can be balanced in much more subtle ways is all I am saying. There is no need to go straight to a third person view and a radar, as that imbalances the game in the other direction, no matter how good the AI is. I'm not even arguing against the option of a third person camera anyway. I just find it unbearably frustrating that they don't allow the proper use of a first person camera.

I don't see how anyone could argue against entirely optional mechanics, but they keep needlessly shoving crap down our throats. It doesn't even make sense from a sales perspective, so making features optional will only do them good. They seem to be actively against more challenging game play regardless if it's a player choice, so that puts me actively against them.

There's a difference between 'challenging' and 'frustratingly difficult' though.

You're right though. I don't know what the AI will be like in this game, but there is little chance it won't be more challenging than it was in DX if you ask me. There are no doubt better solutions to the problem then what EM came up with. It's just frustated me that nobody ever factors AI balancing issues into why EM went the way they did, instead of just 'they're dumbing it down for Johnny Call of Duty'.

MaxxQ1
6th Dec 2010, 03:05
I wouldn't really call the use of the command console playing the game as designed. thereisnospoon is still the best command, though.

The real test of HR revolution, in my opinion, as to whether it's a developer's wanting to show off their skills and force everyone to watch how awesome they are or if they want to create a game that will be fun for all players, is whether there will be two options in the Settings menu: "Cinematic Takedowns: On/Off" and "Cover System: On/Off."

That's it. Everyone wins that way. It's not hard to implement. So far, there's been little communication from EM as to what's happening with regard to that.

Because Deus Ex is meant to be about choice, right?

That *would* be the smart thing to do. However, it appears that we will have to wait to see if EM are that smart, since they're not saying one way or the other as to whether we have a choice.

And neither is Mr. K. :rasp:

Jerion
6th Dec 2010, 03:13
It's interesting to me how you guys read as much or more into what I don't say as what I do say.

thedosbox
6th Dec 2010, 03:14
I don't know if you're remembering wrong, or just making stuff up, but that's not even close to what happened. First of all, the first 3D games were isometric platformers and simulators. Platformers were and remained third-person. The few games that tried first-person platforming never became popular. Simulators were and remained first-person, because third-person simulator just doesn't make sense.

When Wolfenstein 3D and subsequently Doom popularized FPS, it was a start of the new genre.


I specifically responded to the first post because of the claim that old school PC gamers and first person were one and the same. Thank you for making the point again.

Granted, the switch from 2D to 3D wasn't necessarily about perspective ;)

[Sidebar] As for first-person platforming, Mirror's Edge came very very close to pulling it off. Similarly, I assume you're ignoring the rabid followers of third person train simulators for a reason (other than them being geekier than most geeks).

[FGS]Shadowrunner
6th Dec 2010, 03:15
I wouldn't really call the use of the command console playing the game as designed.

*sighs* If only others shared your view. One reason multiplayer finds it very difficult to attract new players.

motsm
6th Dec 2010, 03:23
It's just frustated me that nobody ever factors AI balancing issues into why EM went the way they did, instead of just 'they're dumbing it down for Johnny Call of Duty'.I would never think to factor it in, because it's too illogical to me. In my opinion, they are doing nothing but dumbing it down for Johnny Call of Duty. That doesn't mean I'm calling them sell outs necessarily, as it's always possible they are Johnny Call of Duty.

uv23
6th Dec 2010, 03:28
I've been playing video games for 25 years and I love TPS, because I feel its actually more immersive than a FPS. There's nothing more satisfying than always seeing my character as I have designed and equipped him/her. Sure, this is more of a factor in RPGs with true character customization, but it still applies here. I'm so sick of people moaning about how TPS is some sort of abomination created to appease young gamers.

motsm
6th Dec 2010, 03:35
I've been playing video games for 25 years and I love TPS, because I feel its actually more immersive than a FPS. There's nothing more satisfying than always seeing my character as I have designed and equipped him/her. Sure, this is more of a factor in RPGs with true character customization, but it still applies here. I'm so sick of people moaning about how TPS is some sort of abomination created to appease young gamers.I don't have a problem with third person in some games, it's just how it's implemented, and what genre it's being implemented into.

The overly flashy design of the take downs, gimped stealth game play, and whack a mole shooter tactics is what bugs me about it being implemented in Human Revolution. On the other hand, I have no problems with it in games like The Witcher, Tomb Raider, Knights of the Old Republic, and many other games and genre's.

MaxxQ1
6th Dec 2010, 03:36
I've been playing video games for 25 years and I love TPS, because I feel its actually more immersive than a FPS. There's nothing more satisfying than always seeing my character as I have designed and equipped him/her. Sure, this is more of a factor in RPGs with true character customization, but it still applies here. I'm so sick of people moaning about how TPS is some sort of abomination created to appease young gamers.

Most of us complaining are doing so more because Deus Ex was FPP, and we feel that any game with Deus Ex in its name should remain FPP.

And please don't trot out that dead horse called, "You just want DX with better graphics." Because it was wrong when it was first said two/three-odd years ago, and it's still wrong.

I have no problems with TPP *in other games*, but would like my DX in first person, please.

thedosbox
6th Dec 2010, 03:40
Given there are only three months before the game is due for release, does anyone complaining about third person really think EM are about to change the design of the game to remove it?

If so, there's a bridge I can sell you. :p

motsm
6th Dec 2010, 03:49
Given there are only three months before the game is due for release, does anyone complaining about third person really think EM are about to change the design of the game to remove it?

If so, there's a bridge I can sell you. :pOf course not, but voicing your opinion loud enough, and then taking part in the crucial step of not buying it will make game developers listen to the people supporting them more. Of course until people realize you have to complete both steps of the aforementioned, it is rather useless I'll agree. I won't shut my own mouth based on others lack of self control, or intelligence however.

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 03:52
Of course not, but voicing your opinion loud enough, and then taking part in the crucial step of not buying it will make game developers listen to the people supporting them more. Of course until people realize you have to complete both steps of the aforementioned, it is rather useless I'll agree. I won't shut my own mouth based on others lack of self control, or intelligence however.

If you're not gonna buy it how exactly are you supporting them? Is criticising every element you don't agree with supporting?

uv23
6th Dec 2010, 03:54
Most of us complaining are doing so more because Deus Ex was FPP, and we feel that any game with Deus Ex in its name should remain FPP.

And please don't trot out that dead horse called, "You just want DX with better graphics." Because it was wrong when it was first said two/three-odd years ago, and it's still wrong.

I have no problems with TPP *in other games*, but would like my DX in first person, please.
Things change. You should feel grateful just to be getting a new Deus Ex at all in this day and age of me-too garbage shooters.

That being said, I will agree with the post about shifting perspectives not being ideal. I'd rather be in TPS 100% of the time. By extension, that means a FPS/TPS toggle like in Fallout would work the best and appeal to everyone. But I also wish HR was going to be 100 hours long and that's not going to happen.

So I will take what I can get and be thankful for the massive amount of work that went into it.

motsm
6th Dec 2010, 03:55
If you're not gonna buy it how exactly are you supporting them? Is criticising every element you don't agree with supporting?Do I really have to explain how the very basis of the economy works? No thank you.

thedosbox
6th Dec 2010, 03:57
Of course not, but voicing your opinion loud enough, and then taking part in the crucial step of not buying it will make game developers listen to the people supporting them more. Of course until people realize you have to complete both steps of the aforementioned, it is rather useless I'll agree. I won't shut my own mouth based on others lack of self control, or intelligence however.

So, rather than find a game you do want to play and promote that, you appear more interested in mouthing off about how this game isn't 100% the way you want.

Funny way of trying to get what you want.

Dead-Eye
6th Dec 2010, 03:57
It's just frustated me that nobody ever factors AI balancing issues into why EM went the way they did
I have been aware that this is the reason for the cover system and have stated such in the past.

The third person cover system doesn't even bother me. What bothers me is that EM specifically said things were going to be optional and that they were going to cater to the fans of the original.

So they made the AI smarter and countered it with a TPCS to make it as easy as the original. Fine. But they said it was optional. Yet they didn't even give fans of the original the most basic cover system that was in the original if they choice to not to use TPC. Instead they have basically stated (with their actions) that if you don't like the cover system there is no alternative and you can go piss up a rope because we think you should use our cover system.

This is NOT play style matters! This is play the game our way or die!

On top of that lean keys are something so basic to code that it probably would take a programmer less then an hour to add. They didn't even need to bind them if they had other plans for Q and E, because people who are going to use lean keys are the same people that are going to bind the keyboard to their own play style.

EM ether doesn't understand play style matters or they just don't care. Not only have they flat out lied to us, but now they obviously don't care for player customization. They are treating us all like we are too dumb to set custom keyboard shortcuts. NOT EVERYONE IN THE WORLD IS SO INCOMPETENT THAT THEY NEED THERE HAND HELD ALL THE TIME EM! Who the hell are they even making this game for? My dad? He has trouble with Epic Micky. He asked me to beat a boss that took me 15 seconds to beat. Is that who they have working in there Q&A department. It sure seems that way.

So now we're in the situation were EM is ether totally incompetent or they are just ******* liers. I don't know what's worse. Add on top of that the stupid Dragon Age style money garbing and I don't even know why the hell I'm here. It's becoming too obvious that EM doesn't give a **** about us die hards, and they ether didn't get the most fundamental concept about why Deus Ex is consider the greatest game of all time (HINT HINT PLAY STYLE MATTERS), or they just don't care. It's like they really just care about what stupid people like, because stupid people buy **** without thinking.

And that's what this game is turning into, stupid **** for stupid people.

Man I don't even know if I want to be here anymore. It's not like EM actually reads their own forums or worse they just don't care.

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 04:02
Do I really have to explain how the very basis of the economy works? No thank you.

You might have to explain to me how economy factors into you complaining about a game in a forum yes.

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 04:11
I have been aware that this is the reason for the cover system and have stated such in the past.

The third person cover system doesn't even bother me. What bothers me is that EM specifically said things were going to be optional and that they were going to cater to the fans of the original.

So they made the AI smarter and countered it with a TPCS to make it as easy as the original. Fine. But they said it was optional. Yet they didn't even give fans of the original the most basic cover system that was in the original if they choice to not to use TPC. Instead they have basically stated (with their actions) that if you don't like the cover system there is no alternative and you can go piss up a rope because we think you should use our cover system.

This is NOT play style matters! This is play the game our way or die!

On top of that lean keys are something so basic to code that it probably would take a programmer less then an hour to add. They didn't even need to bind them if they had other plans for Q and E, because people who are going to use lean keys are the same people that are going to bind the keyboard to their own play style.

Third person stealth IS optional. You can still hide behind boxes in first person, just like in the first game. Jerion has clearly stated that the basic radar fulfills the role of lean keys, that of knowing where your enemies behind cover are. The only 3rd person you're actually obliged to enter is in ladder climbing, but obviously we all know that by now.

motsm
6th Dec 2010, 04:14
So, rather than find a game you do want to play and promote that, you appear more interested in mouthing off about how this game isn't 100% the way you want.

Funny way of trying to get what you want.Human Revolution is a game I want to play, just sans EM's ridiculous hand holding features. The same hand holding features seemingly every game developer is adopting, ruining more games I'd potentially love to play. So it affect's the entire industry.

It's just a matter of them coming so close to a great game for both hardcore and casual gamers alike, and then seemingly screwing us on purpose, by not implementing the simplest of entirely optional things.

Third person stealth IS optional. You can still hide behind boxes in first person, just like in the first game. Jerion has clearly stated that the basic radar fulfills the role of lean keys, that of knowing where your enemies behind cover are. The only 3rd person you're actually obliged to enter is in ladder climbing, but obviously we all know that by now.The radar is more similar to a third person cover system, as you can see the enemies location without revealing your own. So it's not even close to a substitute. I'd honestly just rather play an all out kill everything character with the way they are making the game.

lithos
6th Dec 2010, 04:23
That *would* be the smart thing to do. However, it appears that we will have to wait to see if EM are that smart, since they're not saying one way or the other as to whether we have a choice.

The only reason I can think of not including such an option is developer ego: being so convinced that their design choice is so awesome that everyone will love it. That's clearly not the case. With an option to turn it on or off - it's just like having an option to turn off crosshairs in a game, it's not a huge change that would require vast amounts of recoding or work (well, with the takedowns, you'd just have to put a simple swing of the sword arm in there) - it pleases everyone, and offends no one. It's the common sense thing to do.

But it's still seems like we're waiting on the TPS report...

http://s1.hubimg.com/u/237290_f248.jpg

thedosbox
6th Dec 2010, 04:27
Human Revolution is a game I want to play, just sans EM's ridiculous hand holding features. The same hand holding features seemingly every game developer is adopting, ruining more games I'd potentially love to play. So it affect's the entire industry.


Welcome to the 21st century. If you don't like the way things are going, either start your own company and turn out "superior" games, or find another way to spend your leisure time. Complaints on a forum aren't a particularly effective way of effecting the type of change you're looking for.

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 04:30
Human Revolution is a game I want to play, just sans EM's ridiculous hand holding features. The same hand holding features seemingly every game developer is adopting, ruining more games I'd potentially love to play. So it affect's the entire industry.

It's just a matter of them coming so close to a great game for both hardcore and casual gamers alike, and then seemingly screwing us on purpose, by not implementing the simplest of entirely optional things.
The radar is more similar to a third person cover system, as you can see the enemies location without revealing your own. So it's not even close to a substitute. I'd honestly just rather play an all out kill everything character with the way they are making the game.

Yes. That's what I said. They've done all the 3rd (AND 1st person) to make it so you can see the enemy before they see you, even ladder climbing. I can understand why a lot of people don't like that. I can see why they may have done it though.

Anasumtj
6th Dec 2010, 04:37
Complaining about people complain about people who complain about people who complain about people who complain on forums is a waste of time and will never accomplish anything.

There. I think that's cleared up everything. Now all of you shut the **** up.

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 04:41
Complaining about people complain about people who complain about people who complain about people who complain on forums is a waste of time and will never accomplish anything.

There. I think that's cleared up everything. Now all of you shut the **** up.

Complaining about complaining about complaining about complaining etc...

motsm
6th Dec 2010, 04:41
Complaining about people complain about people who complain about people who complain about people who complain on forums is a waste of time and will never accomplish anything.

There. I think that's cleared up everything. Now all of you shut the **** up.I hope you said that in irony, because you just complained about us complaining.

thedosbox
6th Dec 2010, 04:44
Complaining about people complain about people who complain about people who complain about people who complain on forums is a waste of time and will never accomplish anything.

There. I think that's cleared up everything. Now all of you shut the **** up.

I just want the people complaining to complain the way they did ten years ago. ASCII art. Blinking scrolling text. sparkly backgrounds, embedded MIDI sounds etc. It's sad how the quality of complaining has gone down hill.

Jerion
6th Dec 2010, 04:45
Forum whining: A cyclical endeavor.

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 04:48
I just want the people complaining to complain the way they did ten years ago. ASCII art. Blinking scrolling text. sparkly backgrounds, embedded MIDI sounds etc. It's sad how the quality of complaining has gone down hill.

They knew how to complain back in the day didn't they?

Jerion
6th Dec 2010, 05:01
Everything was better when I was twelve.

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 05:07
Everything was better when I was twelve.

Where's the 'like' button?

MaxxQ1
6th Dec 2010, 05:27
Things change.

Change isn't always good. Some changes we've seen are good, some are meh, and others are outright garbage.


You should feel grateful just to be getting a new Deus Ex at all in this day and age of me-too garbage shooters.

I *would* feel grateful, if it was actually a new Deus Ex game I was getting. Unfortunately, with all the changes being made (and based on what little information we have been given over the past couple years), this game is looking and feeling, IMO, Deus Ex-like, but *not* Deus Ex.

And don't tell me I "should feel grateful". It's insulting.

The last time I felt grateful for a follow-up game was when Freespace 2 and Baldur's Gate 2 were released. Those two games took everything that made their predecessors great, and simply expanded upon that, while repairing/replacing things that didn't work. FPP wasn't broken in DX, so why fix, drop, or replace it? Locational damage wasn't broken in DX, so why fix, drop, or replace it? Lockpicks and multitools weren't broken in DX, so why fix, drop, or replace them?

The hacking minigame is a good change, so far as I can tell. Once I found out health regen is similar to The Witcher, I wasn't as upset about it.


That being said, I will agree with the post about shifting perspectives not being ideal. I'd rather be in TPS 100% of the time. By extension, that means a FPS/TPS toggle like in Fallout would work the best and appeal to everyone. But I also wish HR was going to be 100 hours long and that's not going to happen.

We were talking about having an option in place for TPP/FPP all the way back when it was first revealed there was gonna be TPP in the game. They've had plenty of time to implement a toggle and/or lean keys for those *choosing* FPP. If Jerion is right and the radar is supposed to help out those who refuse to use the TP cover, then it's a half-assed bone they threw to us. EM keep talking about "The Four Pillars" of gameplay. Well, Ion Storm gave us one main pillar - choice. EM appears to have taken that one down more than a few notches.


So I will take what I can get and be thankful for the massive amount of work that went into it.

So, when you go out for a steak dinner, and the waiter brings you Cream of Wheat, you'll take what you can get and be thankful for the massive amount of work that went into it? Oh, and unless you called ahead and made a partial prepayment, you won't get any sugar with it - that's an exclusive bonus item.

Edit: Thought of a better analogy. 10 years ago, you had the best steak ever from a fledgling restaurant. Now, this was a new place, but the head cook there was really good, and as I said, it was the best steak you ever had.

Now, you go to a new place that promises steak just as good as the one you had ten years ago. Only, after waiting in line for a couple years, you finally get seated, place your order (16 oz, inch-thick, medium), and after a few months, the waiter brings you a burger (they were working their asses off to make it good).

Waitaminnit! You ordered steak, right? Well, it's still meat - it came from a cow, so they kept the basic premise. Thing is, you find out that they "borrowed" their method of cooking the burger from a mainstream place, like McDonald's. *Their* way of doing it *must* be good, because they've sold billions worldwide (that's what their signs say, anyway), so that's good enough for this steakhouse.

You ask about a baked potato to go with it, but the waiter says that baked potatos are only available if you called ahead by three months, and made a partial payment. On the other hand, for ten dollars extra, you not only get the baked potato, but you also get a CD of the cow mooing, a photo album of the cow and the restaurant, and a 45 minute "making of" DVD that shows them cooking the burger.

So, anyway, you take a look at this burger. Boy it sure is pretty. The bun is nice and golden, the meat is a little burnt though, almost black, but for some reason, the gold and black look good in candlelight. Hmmm, there's a bottle of ketchup on a table across the room that seems strangely outlined in gold, but you really like A-1 on your burgers. Waiter says ketchup is all they have. No choice in the matter.

So, now you're ready to eat it, and suddenly, the waiter takes it out of your hands and gives it to your twin across the table. You have no control as your twin eats your burger-that's-supposed-to-be-steak. After your twin finishes, you get the plate back.

Now, you should be grateful that they actually brought you meat from a cow, and that they worked long and hard to make you that McDonald's burger.

K^2
6th Dec 2010, 05:40
I specifically responded to the first post because of the claim that old school PC gamers and first person were one and the same. Thank you for making the point again.

Granted, the switch from 2D to 3D wasn't necessarily about perspective ;)

[Sidebar] As for first-person platforming, Mirror's Edge came very very close to pulling it off. Similarly, I assume you're ignoring the rabid followers of third person train simulators for a reason (other than them being geekier than most geeks).
I think old school shooters is sort of implied when people say that. Otherwise, we'd have to insist that HR goes back to two paddles and a ball. And shooters of the non-scrolling variety have had their roots solidly in first person.

I was thinking of Mirror's Edge when I wrote this, but it's hardly a platformer. There have been genuine platformers done in first person. They generated a good deal of suction. Mirror's Edge is closer to Portal in its genre. It's a first-person something, and we'll have to see a few more games in the genre to define that something.

And, no, that's pretty much the reason on the train sims. Though, to be honest, these aren't as bad as ATC sims. You look at a blinking dot on a screen and pretend that it's a 747. Does that constitute a 1st person or 3rd person? Or should we go all the way and call it a first person simulation of a third person simulation?

Rindill the Red
6th Dec 2010, 06:00
Things change. You should feel grateful just to be getting a new Deus Ex at all in this day and age of me-too garbage shooters.

Well, there is your problem right there. "should" Your particular world-view can differ greatly from others, and is in no way the absolutely correct world-view.

And if you actually looked at the video-game-scape at all you would see that me-too garbage shooters actually make up a very small percent of the games coming out.

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 06:18
We were talking about having an option in place for TPP/FPP all the way back when it was first revealed there was gonna be TPP in the game. They've had plenty of time to implement a toggle and/or lean keys for those *choosing* FPP. If Jerion is right and the radar is supposed to help out those who refuse to use the TP cover, then it's a half-assed bone they threw to us. EM keep talking about "The Four Pillars" of gameplay. Well, Ion Storm gave us one main pillar - choice. EM appears to have taken that one down more than a few notches.



So, when you go out for a steak dinner, and the waiter brings you Cream of Wheat, you'll take what you can get and be thankful for the massive amount of work that went into it? Oh, and unless you called ahead and made a partial prepayment, you won't get any sugar with it - that's an exclusive bonus item.

I know you're not addressing me but I just thought i'd add my 2 cents to this. How is radar more half-assed than lean keys, when it no doubt takes longer and is more difficult to implement? and .. why do you need 1st person stealth to involve the cover system instead of being like it was in the first game? Wouldn't doing it that way be less like getting a steak dinner when you order one than what they've done? They've given you back your DX stealth model just as you ordered, with a side order of radar.

MaxxQ1
6th Dec 2010, 06:38
I know you're not addressing me but I just thought i'd add my 2 cents to this. How is radar more half-assed than lean keys, when it no doubt takes longer and is more difficult to implement? and .. why do you need 1st person stealth to involve the cover system instead of being like it was in the first game? Wouldn't doing it that way be less like getting a steak dinner when you order one than what they've done? They've given you back your DX stealth model just as you ordered, with a side order of radar.

Sorry, I like my my steak lean, and not microwaved.

Edit: Look at it this way. When you try to sneak up on someone, you get against the wall and lean around the corner to see where they are. Yes, you risk that person seeing you, but if they don't, the reward when you say "BOO!" is worth the risk.

You don't have some floating camera above and behind you that shows where the person is without any risk to yourself, and while the radar can/could be plausible, as someone else said, if the person isn't moving, it's hard to tell which way they're facing. Sure, it's just as much a risk as leaning, but leaning worked fine in DX. With improved AI, as I'm sure HR has, it would work even better, and IMO have a greater risk/reward ratio.

As I, and others, have said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Leaning wasn't broke in DX.

I call radar half-assed because it almost seems like they implemented it simply because they didn't *want* to implement leaning. Like they have some grudge against it. By going with radar, they hope to make it seem more gee-whiz than simply peeking around a corner, and supposedly quiets those who feel a disembodied camera floating behind you is ****.

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 06:45
Sorry, I like my my steak lean, and not microwaved.

I like mine in a sandwich.

Yeah I have no idea what you mean ...

MaxxQ1
6th Dec 2010, 06:53
I like mine in a sandwich.

Yeah I have no idea what you mean ...

It was a pun on a couple of words. A lean steak has most of the fat cut off and we were discussing leaning in the game.

Microwave ovens use essentially the same technology as radar, and some of the more powerful radars in use by the military can literally cook a bird from a few thousand feet away. Or your balls...

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 06:58
It was a pun on a couple of words. A lean steak has most of the fat cut off and we were discussing leaning in the game.

Microwave ovens use essentially the same technology as radar, and some of the more powerful radars in use by the military can literally cook a bird from a few thousand feet away. Or your balls...

oh :thumb: That was actually pretty good .. and obvious. Don't mind me.

MaxxQ1
6th Dec 2010, 07:02
oh :thumb: That was actually pretty good .. and obvious. Don't mind me.

I have my moments. Not many, but I have them. :D

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 07:06
I call radar half-assed because it almost seems like they implemented it simply because they didn't *want* to implement leaning. Like they have some grudge against it. By going with radar, they hope to make it seem more gee-whiz than simply peeking around a corner, and supposedly quiets those who feel a disembodied camera floating behind you is ****.

I'd be willing to bet that they went with radar because they didn't want to go with leaning. I think it has very little to do with any gee-whiz factor, though and everything to do with the 'not getting your face shot off' factor.

MaxxQ1
6th Dec 2010, 07:19
I'd be willing to bet that they went with radar because they didn't want to go with leaning. I think it has very little to do with any gee-whiz factor, though and everything to do with the 'not getting your face shot off' factor.

That could very well be true, but again, that eliminates the tenseness of stealth to begin with - that risk/reward factor I mentioned.

When I first played DX, the most exciting moments were trying to sneak up on somebody, poppong my head around the corner real quick to see where they were and what direction they were facing. Granted, the AI was dumb enough that it wasn't necessary to be too quick in the peek, but it was still tense, and a total thrill when I pulled off a sucessful sneak attack - with melee weapons, or the prod (which, of course are *not* in this game either).

Imagine the excitment of doing the same thing now with the improved AI...

... but that's all you can do - imagine.

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 07:22
That could very well be true, but again, that eliminates the tenseness of stealth to begin with - that risk/reward factor I mentioned.

When I first played DX, the most exciting moments were trying to sneak up on somebody, poppong my head around the corner real quick to see where they were and what direction they were facing. Granted, the AI was dumb enough that it wasn't necessary to be too quick in the peek, but it was still tense, and a total thrill when I pulled off a sucessful sneak attack - with melee weapons, or the prod (which, of course are *not* in this game either).

Imagine the excitment of doing the same thing now with the improved AI...

... but that's all you can do - imagine.

Use 1st person and tape up the radar or wait until it's modded out. Then you have the added thrill of having to strafe instead of using lean. I'm kinda kidding, but this is exactly what I think a lot of the die-hards will end up doing, and it'll probably end up being a decent solution.

fullhealth
6th Dec 2010, 07:23
though and everything to do with the 'not getting your face shot off' factor.

Coupled with the "never run out of health" factor, the "always look like a badass" factor, the "aim assist" factor and the "highlight everything" factor I think we've got a really grown-up game on our hands!

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 07:27
Coupled with the "never run out of health" factor, the "always look like a badass" factor, the "aim assist" factor and the "highlight everything" factor I think we've got a really grown-up game on our hands!

You forgot the 'make the stupid comment without looking at context' factor.

fullhealth
6th Dec 2010, 07:29
You forgot the 'make the stupid comment without looking at context' factor.

I'm very, very sorry.

Could you please look at the context for all of those points for me?

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 07:31
I'm very, very sorry.

Could you please look at the context for all of those points for me?

Since most of those points are grossly exaggerated or non-existant I don't think i'll bother. Or bother with anything you say troll.

fullhealth
6th Dec 2010, 08:16
How predictable and disappointing.

"grossly exaggerated or non-existant" gave me a good chuckle. I purposely stuck to being very reasonable so you'd have no choice but to forfeit the point or make a ridiculous argument and you managed to do both.

Stevostin
6th Dec 2010, 08:26
Those old school gamers can remember the complaints when 3D made first person the "normal" view. Complaints about perspective were old then, and they're old now.


I certainly can't remember anything like it. Firstly because I wouldn't say 3D made the first person the "normal" view, second because first person view existed way before 3D (as in classic RPGs like Dungeon Master or Captive), thirs because complaining about FPP wouldn't make any sense : a great deal of what video games were seeking to achieve since their beginning was waiting for this realtime fpp to exist. Complaining about it would have been like complaining about jumbing from 16 to 256 color.


Why do people who create the 'we hate 3rd person cover' always disregard the increased enemy difficulty that will come along with improved enemy AI and sight distance? Why does that never factor into the equation?
Because it simply isn't true ?


They've given you cover which allows you to see others before they see you, in either first or 3rd person. Why is that? Because if the enemy sees you at the same time you see them, they will blow your frikkin head off. It's a balancing issue. The radar and 3rd person don't make the game too easy, they just stop it from being too hard.

Dude, I really wonder how I played through Thief (1-3) or Deus Ex (1-2) @ Max difficulty. Seriously, you're just proving the point about TPS being designed for unskilled lazy console players. What you say is you need to prepare your aim then expose so you can aim faster than AI. Well, for some of us, playing the hero means playing the fast guy, not the cheating guy. What we grown up men do is to rely on fast aiming to outshoot the baddies. Of course, this requires keyboard and mouse, not a pad :P

Shralla
6th Dec 2010, 08:55
Because it simply isn't true ?

I see you got your advance copy in the mail. Do let us know how it is.

Stevostin
6th Dec 2010, 09:07
It's interesting to me how you guys read as much or more into what I don't say as what I do say.

It think I at least didn't do that. I reformulated what I understood you said and asked you for confirmation (you didn't answered that so far).

Again, can you confirm to me that the whole game is also being playtested without any use of third person view apart from dialog (I'd prefer FPP dialog too but I can stand cinematic dialog so let's no fight on this too) with the requirement of not only being doable but also still being fun and interesting ? Or to ask it the opposite way can you confirm third person view to be a bonus for the people who're used to it but not a core element of the infiltration and fight gameplay ? Thanks in advance.

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 09:08
Dude, I really wonder how I played through Thief (1-3) or Deus Ex (1-2) @ Max difficulty. Seriously, you're just proving the point about TPS being designed for unskilled lazy console players. What you say is you need to prepare your aim then expose so you can aim faster than AI. Well, for some of us, playing the hero means playing the fast guy, not the cheating guy. What we grown up men do is to rely on fast aiming to outshoot the baddies. Of course, this requires keyboard and mouse, not a pad :P

I don't even own a console dude. I'll be playing on pc. I don't know how i'll do against the better AI, but I haven't been talking about myself anyway, i've been talking about why they may have decided to implement 3rd person. You can disagree if you like, I don't care.

SPTX
6th Dec 2010, 09:09
Who cares about lean key. That's too "old-school". Today most modern FPS games have some sort of cover system that works great. Killzone 2 even.

In killzone it's still lean...


So tpp cover is probably best suitable for a "Mass Effect-wannabe" such as Human Revolution :) .


And then Deus Ex died again.



Originally Posted by Kodaemon View Post
Except, I can view over things by, you know, not crouching.
Yeah, but then you're fully exposed which defeats the point.
When you want to see something you HAVE to be exposed. No challenge, no game. You are confirmed to be casual to the extreme.



DX1 was never a fast paced game in the same way the Unreal Tournament games were. Go play "Medal of Duty Grey Brown and more Brown" if that's what you're looking for.

actually that's what the game is, just instead of grey and brown you have orange and black.

Stevostin
6th Dec 2010, 09:23
I see you got your advance copy in the mail. Do let us know how it is.

Actually, he's the one making assumption that there will be an increased enemy difficulty - being confused about improving AI and making it more difficult. This is absolutely false : a raw AI that shoot you with 100% accuracy as soon as there is a line of fire for it to do so is incredibly difficult to play against but very simple to code.

That being said, the " not true" part is to state it "should factor into the equation". As wisely said by somebody else here, first you define the gameplay then you adjust the difficulty. Now I understand some people just like crap. Crap movie, crap music, crap game. They buy a console to play a FPS, which is like using a fly tap to play tennis. And if business implies to sell to those guys too, well so be it. But they aren't the only guys in the crowd. I don't pick my music based on the boobs I can see in the video, I don't see any movie without strong recommandations from tasted people I know and if DE:HR reviews say playing TPP is mandatory, Eidos will starve for my money and see me *****ing in forum on how they ruined a franchise by spitting on the people who made it strong in the first place. Mandatory TPP
is way wronger than all DE 2 failures, and that's saying something.


I don't even own a console dude. I'll be playing on pc. I don't know how i'll do against the better AI, but I haven't been talking about myself anyway, i've been talking about why they may have decided to implement 3rd person. You can disagree if you like, I don't care.
I did say you were feeding a cliche and that is what you did - you didn't need to live the cliche to promote it, as you can see. BTW I created the topic on which you're giving your opinion which is that you disagree. I am polite enough to discuss it with you. Are you polite enough to discuss this with me ? Because else it's not really fair to come and give your opinion in the first place...

Jerion
6th Dec 2010, 09:26
When you want to see something you HAVE to be exposed. No challenge, no game. You are confirmed to be casual to the extreme.


Missing the point, missing the context. Do I have to draw stick figure pictures to communicate this? It seems that text does not convey the meaning of my words.

I'm also happy that you know more about this title than I do, apparently.

Stevostin
6th Dec 2010, 09:39
Welcome to the 21st century. If you don't like the way things are going, either start your own company and turn out "superior" games, or find another way to spend your leisure time. Complaints on a forum aren't a particularly effective way of effecting the type of change you're looking for.

Valve reads its forums and from time to time, acts according to what people say. Blizzard does that too. Those are the the two leading companies on the PC market. So voicing our opinions definitely makes sense. What EM doest with it is up to them, but I am sure you agree it wouldn't make sense for me to blame them for ignoring something I wouldn't say ?

Stevostin
6th Dec 2010, 09:47
It seems that text does not convey the meaning of my words.


I will not use this against you but seriously, I now have asked you twice a pretty accurate question that you've been ignoring so far. Considering the question is central to the current topic you're coming here to comment, it would make sense to reply (even an honest "I don't know" that would at least makes it clear about the state of the question).

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 09:49
[QUOTE=Stevostin;1535717

I did say you were feeding a cliche and that is what you did - you didn't need to live the cliche to promote it, as you can see. BTW I created the topic on which you're giving your opinion which is that you disagree. I am polite enough to discuss it with you. Are you polite enough to discuss this with me ? Because else it's not really fair to come and give your opinion in the first place...[/QUOTE]

I haven't disagreed with the thread you created. You said 3rd person is mandatory, and it is, but only for climbing ladders. 3rd person stealth is optional, and takedowns are optional. If you don't want to use them, don't.

Red
6th Dec 2010, 09:57
If you held out hope this long for both lean keys and a fully functional cover system, you're delusional.

wat?

A code snippet that does while (lean keypress) {tilt screen} is delusional? Who are EM kidding? Wanting more options is all we express here so stick an umbrella up my ass and call me Nancy if this one isn't implementable in an hour, including testing, excluding building. No need to support shooting if you meant that, although that shouldn't be an issue either along with it, the gun shoots where the crosshair points anyways.

What was all that "you don't (smug mode)really(/smug mode) have to go into tpp cover if you don't want to" talk then? I mean wow, what an attitude from them. And then, Kyle comes out with a personal plea not to complain 'cause y'know, they LOVE the game and put their blood and sweat in it. I guess there's not enough love for a goddamn 4-liner while sentence in the code.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not holding anything against you in particular, Jerion, and this post isn't directed towards you except for the part of you saying I'm delusional, with which I disagreed and moved on to rip on EM.

Why is(EM) making things difficult for everyone? I mean, all the talk about PC version being awesomely designed separately for it and then ****load of news of "well, maybe not actually, BUT THE EXPERIENCE WILL BE THE SAME! ->ololo Dugas-mode<-"? You really hate us, don't you? Yeah, I'll stop here, it wasn't a very good start of monday this morning anyways -.-

lithos
6th Dec 2010, 10:07
When you want to see something you HAVE to be exposed. No challenge, no game. You are confirmed to be casual to the extreme.

Agreed. That's what I don't get about cover systems. Despite what devs seem to think, it's quite possible to take cover in a game that lacks a dedicated cover system. Now, be warned, this information may be so shocking to some that it may cause a spontaneous stroke in those persons. This is fair warning.

To take cover in a shooter is can be done like this:

1) Note source of incoming fire.

2) Move so that there is something solid between you and said incoming fire.

That's it. I realise there's a downside for the casuals with this: it takes skill. You actually have to find something solid, and position your character manually so as to be protected. It's a mind-blowing concept. I'll give the casuals a few moments to sit down, maybe breathe into a paper bag for a bit. Grab a wet cloth for their forehead. I'll wait.

Back? All better? There's an O2 tank in the corner, if you need it.

Now, as SPTX has said, there's a reason for this. See, when you do something that has a lot of your own, personal effort into it - whether it be, say, baking a cake instead of buying it, or not having to wet yourself and reach for someone's hand in a shooter when the bullets start flying (I mean, you're playing a shooter, right? It shouldn't really be a surprise) - there's a greater psychological payoff. It feels better, because you overcame a challenge yourself!

motsm
6th Dec 2010, 10:08
I haven't disagreed with the thread you created. You said 3rd person is mandatory, and it is, but only for climbing ladders. 3rd person stealth is optional, and takedowns are optional. If you don't want to use them, don't.We know it's possible to play stealth in first person, but they also gimped everything to do with playing stealth in first person, so it won't be fun anyway. Why would I want to play stealth in first person and never have the option to take anyone down, and have to stare at a radar which I don't even want in the game to begin with. Them saying the entire game can be played in first person is just more half truth's and double speak.

Irate_Iguana
6th Dec 2010, 10:10
Who's alt troll account are you?

Often I had entertained the notion of a troll account. I had several 'templates' lying around. My favorite would be the 12 year old /v/-gamer.



Also, so is it confirmed that the radar is a starting aug and can't be removed? This game really just keeps getting better and better.

Yeah, it's been confirmed. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1521079&postcount=26)



I'd be willing to bet that they went with radar because they didn't want to go with leaning. I think it has very little to do with any gee-whiz factor, though and everything to do with the 'not getting your face shot off' factor.

The radar is part of the games hand-holding features. It has nothing to do with them removing lean. Radar would have always been included with the game. Even for those only wanting to use the TPP. ME featured one and it is one of the more standard features of cover-shooters.

Between standard radar and TPP cheat cam I'm really wondering how they are even going to pose a challenge in the stealth department. You are now fully aware of all guards and you didn't even need to get out of hiding or listen to audio cues.

SPTX
6th Dec 2010, 10:11
Also will the crosshair be optional ? While it makes sense with a augmented vision, I still prefer playing with out for additional challenge.

In the original DX I kept it from time to time because there was no other way of aiming. But DX3 is confirmed to have iron sights so... I'd like to get rid of the crosshair.

motsm
6th Dec 2010, 10:21
Yeah, it's been confirmed. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1521079&postcount=26)So third person cover, forced radar, single button take downs, no light based visibility.

Stealth gameplay is so utterly ruined, I see no possibility to ever find it entertaining. Perhaps HR will make a passable shooter?

mentalkase
6th Dec 2010, 10:22
First person sneaking works as is; you have the fairly limited radar instead of leaning. If you want to use the cover system you have that option too.

Similarly all the elements are there for smooth first-person gunplay, though if you want to slip into cover for shooting the option is there.

Now if the mod capabilities appear to make the cover system happen in first person with intuitive controls, I'll be very happy. FP cover gives you the peeking flexibility of cover plus the slickness of all FPP.

I've been basing my statements on this comment from Jerion. You know .. the guy who's played the game? He might be someone you would want to consult.

SPTX
6th Dec 2010, 10:31
The same who says that third person perspective is better for infiltration so first person players can go **** themselves?

Nonostanovich
6th Dec 2010, 10:48
In real life, you would have access to a wide range of stimuli that can't be easily represented in games (far better audio locationifying than is offered by most speaker setups, for instance). I don't see much of a problem with trying to emulate that effect by providing additional information via TPS in games.
It's a lazy way of giving us information, and some people don't like to be "out of their body", especially when view alternates between TPS and FPS every 10 seconds.

In the past, some developpers manage to give us information about our body (Dark Messiah, Mirror's Edge, Amnesia), without using TPS view. It's a part of the success of these games. Another talented developper promises to implement new ways of body awareness. It's Tripwire with Red Orchestra 2.

TPS view is clearly a choice, and IMHO not the bettest way to let us feel something in a game.

Brockxz
6th Dec 2010, 10:57
Between standard radar and TPP cheat cam I'm really wondering how they are even going to pose a challenge in the stealth department. You are now fully aware of all guards and you didn't even need to get out of hiding or listen to audio cues.

That's what makes me worry about this game. Upgraded radar (i will speculate that that will allow us to see enemies in the radar even further than around the corner), third person cover and maybe some more stealth upgrades like quiet footsteps etc. and you most likely won 't be able to fail stealth approach unless you are really terrible playing games. Could it be any easier???

Senka
6th Dec 2010, 11:02
Well in DX it was pretty easy too =/ Dumb AI is dumb

Irate_Iguana
6th Dec 2010, 11:02
Upgraded radar (i will speculate that that will allow us to see enemies in the radar even further than around the corner), third person cover and maybe some more stealth upgrades like quiet footsteps etc.

It's not that I'm worried that stealth will be easy once you upgrade your augs. It should get easier because you commit resources to that path and close off others. I wonder how they are keeping stealth a challenge with everything at base level. You can already see around corners without fear of being exposed. The guard routes can't be as tightly controlled as a SC or MGS game because HR is more multi-path. How are you going to give the stealth players any incentive for upgrading?



Well in DX it was pretty easy too =/ Dumb AI is dumb

This is a really ****ty excuse.

Senka
6th Dec 2010, 11:07
So they cant change anything and they can't have it as it was......

>_>

Brockxz
6th Dec 2010, 11:08
It's not that I'm worried that stealth will be easy once you upgrade your augs. It should get easier because you commit resources to that path and close off others. I wonder how they are keeping stealth a challenge with everything at base level. You can already see around corners without fear of being exposed. The guard routes can't be as tightly controlled as a SC or MGS game because HR is more multi-path. How are you going to give the stealth players any incentive for upgrading?
This is a really ****ty excuse.

I'm not worried that upgrading makes stealth easier but that you basically only need to upgrade just one or maybe two augs and you already master stealth character. Also they position increased strength augmentation as stealth aug. That is just ridiculous. Ou well, let's just wait for the game and hope that it won 't be that easy how i imagine (already have seen in trailers) it will be.

subtlesnake
6th Dec 2010, 12:33
Agreed. That's what I don't get about cover systems. Despite what devs seem to think, it's quite possible to take cover in a game that lacks a dedicated cover system. Now, be warned, this information may be so shocking to some that it may cause a spontaneous stroke in those persons. This is fair warning.

To take cover in a shooter is can be done like this:

1) Note source of incoming fire.

2) Move so that there is something solid between you and said incoming fire.

That's it. I realise there's a downside for the casuals with this: it takes skill. You actually have to find something solid, and position your character manually so as to be protected. It's a mind-blowing concept. I'll give the casuals a few moments to sit down, maybe breathe into a paper bag for a bit. Grab a wet cloth for their forehead. I'll wait.

Isn't this exactly how it's done in 'casual' shooters like CoD or Halo?

Irate_Iguana
6th Dec 2010, 12:50
So they cant change anything and they can't have it as it was......

>_>

Maybe I misunderstood your comment. That the AI in DX was pants-on-head retarded is generally used as a way of saying that it doesn't matter that the stealth portion in HR seems to be really easy. Or that leaning also was overpowered.

lithos
6th Dec 2010, 12:51
Isn't this exactly how it's done in 'casual' shooters like CoD or Halo?

Yup.

The problems with Halo and COD aren't with the cover system (because, well, there ain't one.) Sorry to piss on your association fallacy, though.

subtlesnake
6th Dec 2010, 13:00
I was just pointing out there's no inherant reason why you have to have a 'cover' system in a (cover based) casual shooter, and that this is something developers obviously recognise.

SPTX
6th Dec 2010, 13:10
I was just pointing out there's no inherant reason why you have to have a 'cover' system in a (cover based) casual shooter, and that this is something developers obviously recognise.

Same thing always and always. The problem is not having a cover system, but the way it's done.

Stevostin
6th Dec 2010, 13:23
3rd person stealth is optional, and takedowns are optional. If you don't want to use them, don't.

I am not trusty to this affirmation ("3rd person stealth is optional") and that's why I keep on asking the question more specifically. My concern is that no one @EM is actually working on the "no TPC" gameplay and making sure it's every bit as good as in the sole game so far of the franchise that was a commercial succes i.e. DE1. My concern is that Eidos wants to turn a 1-2million copy PC license to a 10 million multi platform license ala MGS / Splinter Cell and is watching those games as a "how it should be done" reference rather than Deus Ex 1. My concern is that realistically either the game will be balanced to be challenging with TPC and radar, which means it will be painfully hard without it, either it will be too easy even in hard mode so TPC isn't needed. To me gameplay isn't good by accident, that's why I am asking "does anyone @EM care that the core DE gameplay is working good in DE3" ?

Fact is I am not getting any answer so far. This doesn't smell good. I can already say FPS action will be at best average (good FPS action for most core PC FPS gamers : STALKER, Left4Dead...) and it seems quite sure stealth action is doomed. I like the visual, and if the story is good I *may* buy this for €15 on a steam sale. But I want this to be perfectly clear : it's fine that EM and anyone has to make their game multiplatform. It's fine they make sure the console gamers are happy. It's not fine not to make the same for PC crowd. Sure it's a smaller one, but it's still a decent market with enough potential money to justify investing in the extra miles so that we, PC gamers, are happy with DE3. What irritates me is that it seems just poor business decision leading to ruin a loved franchise from OUR platform, OUR culture, FFS.

IOOI
6th Dec 2010, 14:44
So, when you go out for a steak dinner, and the waiter brings you Cream of Wheat, you'll take what you can get and be thankful for the massive amount of work that went into it? Oh, and unless you called ahead and made a partial prepayment, you won't get any sugar with it - that's an exclusive bonus item.

Edit: Thought of a better analogy. 10 years ago, you had the best steak ever from a fledgling restaurant. Now, this was a new place, but the head cook there was really good, and as I said, it was the best steak you ever had.

Now, you go to a new place that promises steak just as good as the one you had ten years ago. Only, after waiting in line for a couple years, you finally get seated, place your order (16 oz, inch-thick, medium), and after a few months, the waiter brings you a burger (they were working their asses off to make it good).

Waitaminnit! You ordered steak, right? Well, it's still meat - it came from a cow, so they kept the basic premise. Thing is, you find out that they "borrowed" their method of cooking the burger from a mainstream place, like McDonald's. *Their* way of doing it *must* be good, because they've sold billions worldwide (that's what their signs say, anyway), so that's good enough for this steakhouse.

You ask about a baked potato to go with it, but the waiter says that baked potatos are only available if you called ahead by three months, and made a partial payment. On the other hand, for ten dollars extra, you not only get the baked potato, but you also get a CD of the cow mooing, a photo album of the cow and the restaurant, and a 45 minute "making of" DVD that shows them cooking the burger.

So, anyway, you take a look at this burger. Boy it sure is pretty. The bun is nice and golden, the meat is a little burnt though, almost black, but for some reason, the gold and black look good in candlelight. Hmmm, there's a bottle of ketchup on a table across the room that seems strangely outlined in gold, but you really like A-1 on your burgers. Waiter says ketchup is all they have. No choice in the matter.

So, now you're ready to eat it, and suddenly, the waiter takes it out of your hands and gives it to your twin across the table. You have no control as your twin eats your burger-that's-supposed-to-be-steak. After your twin finishes, you get the plate back.

Now, you should be grateful that they actually brought you meat from a cow, and that they worked long and hard to make you that McDonald's burger.


Too funny! :D



Dude, I really wonder how I played through Thief (1-3) or Deus Ex (1-2) @ Max difficulty. Seriously, you're just proving the point about TPS being designed for unskilled lazy console players. What you say is you need to prepare your aim then expose so you can aim faster than AI. Well, for some of us, playing the hero means playing the fast guy, not the cheating guy. What we grown up men do is to rely on fast aiming to outshoot the baddies. Of course, this requires keyboard and mouse, not a pad :P

OMG! Someone that makes sense. :thumb:



takedowns are optional. If you don't want to use them, don't.

Optional in the sense that you may miss the tiny amount of Melee/HTH combat available if you don't like TPP? No, that doesn't sound right.

Instead of giving the option to use FPP like in stealth and gunfights it's alienating the Melee/HTH player that doesn't like the takedowns. Best way to screw the game. :rolleyes:

And this is why some say that this constant switch between TPP and FPP is a broken system. It's jarring and breaks the immersion.

Xuri
6th Dec 2010, 15:30
I agree with most of Stevostin's and SPTX's points. (I made my own points at page 2)

All we want is for the game to be also designed for people who don't intent to use the cover system. I'm sure EM is proud of it and has worked hard on it, but sometimes you have to put your ego asside and listen to the community.

All we need is for the cover system to be entirely optional. And a lean key. Please.

Is that so hard to understand? (it certainly isn't hard to implement)

They have a chance to make both sides happy, why wouldn't they do it? I think this is the main question here.

IOOI
6th Dec 2010, 15:50
Rokstrombo made a good point awhile back, saying that it might not be necessary if we use crouch+strafe, but only if movement is slow like in DX.

Stevostin
6th Dec 2010, 16:10
I'm also happy that you know more about this title than I do, apparently.

You wouldn't be the first CM whith an history of fast aging quotes that gets embarassing once the game has been published and the reception has becomed clearly not as good as the publisher was claiming. I am pretty sure there was someone doing exactly your job on a forum to convince ppl that, say Deux EX2 wouldn't be consolised disaster with annoying clumsy interface and ridiculously small maps. Maybe he or she was sarcastic too, sometimes - who knows ?

Senka
7th Dec 2010, 00:04
Maybe I misunderstood your comment. That the AI in DX was pants-on-head retarded is generally used as a way of saying that it doesn't matter that the stealth portion in HR seems to be really easy. Or that leaning also was overpowered.
Could you actually be seen when leaning out? For memory it just shifted the camera, and I can't remember if AI/security cameras would detect you if you were leaning out there.

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
7th Dec 2010, 00:44
I am pretty sure it's something that comes up on a regular basis here... But even if it is I feel like the more this is repeated the more the designers will keep this important thing in mind.

The important thing is : for some people, TPS mode may be a nice addition, but to some other, and especially amongst PC old school gamers (you know, those guys who played Deus Ex 1 :P ), TPS just *ruins* the experience. Yup, some of us are seeking for immersion. And believe it or not but it NEVER happen in my life to suddenly see myself from behind, even when crouched behind a crate. So if I start to see the guy I am supposed to be in that world I want to be immersed in, the very second I jump from "just as if I was that guy" view to "you're just playing a video game" view, immersion is instantly broken.

Oh, and it shall also be noted than "take cover" gameplay ala GoW is typically disliked amongst those "PC" gamers. It's slow paced, and it allows to know what happens on the field without taking the risk of being shot, which means no risk/gain decision = ie no gameplay. Slow and dull...

So my point is : I seriously hope all the brilliant work obviously made on DE:HR will not be ruined by not giving the PC gamers the possibility to prevent any TPS action to occure. I don't mind some people playint with it if they want to. Hey, there's even people enjoying Euro Dance. I just don't want to be forced to hear Euro Dance - or to cope with TPS view. That would be really sad to pass on a game with such obviously brillant work on every other aspect.

/Facepalm

Another zealot who thinks he's important enough to duplicate this topic 400 times. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

cartridge
7th Dec 2010, 00:57
Now, that's augmented:

YzLQMO0W9U8&fmt=22

Also an awesome game.

thedosbox
7th Dec 2010, 01:26
Valve reads its forums and from time to time, acts according to what people say. Blizzard does that too. Those are the the two leading companies on the PC market. So voicing our opinions definitely makes sense. What EM doest with it is up to them, but I am sure you agree it wouldn't make sense for me to blame them for ignoring something I wouldn't say ?

You're missing the point, along with the reality of the current market. EM have previously indicated they don't take what's posted on this forum particularly seriously. And given that it's the same crowd (i.e. motsm in this particular case) repeating the same old arguments ad infinitum, that's unlikely to change.

I hope you all enjoy your rants, as I'm done with this thread. Though I suggest you consider the opportunity cost before continuing.

Blade_hunter
7th Dec 2010, 01:27
Pour répondre * notre posteur ça fait depuis 2009 que j'ai moi et beaucoup de membres fans de Deus Ex et de Thief (aimant Deus Ex pour cet aspect) dès l'annonce de ce Rainbow Six vegassisme avions fait des sondages montrant clairement que la majorité des gens étaient contre ce cover et ce changement de vue forcé en fonction des mouvements, crois moi, on a vu des débats interminables sur la vie auto régénérante, la 3e personne, les takedowns (qui suppriment au passage les combats au corps * corps puisque c'est une action qui enclanche une cinématique) et blah blah.
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=91480

Je suis content de voir que les NoFraggeurs se réveillent :) mais trop tard fallait venir avant

dixieflatline
7th Dec 2010, 01:37
I'm as old school of a hardcore PC gamer as you can get, and personally, the TPS doesn't bother me that much. I would definetly prefer it not be there, but it doesn't really bother me. Perhaps because I never been into the stealth aspects at all.

Health regen was defintely a bigger thing for me because it has so many more reprecussions for the entire design idealogy of the game.

I'm sort of over both now. From all that I have seen I more optimistic for the game than ever, really. I also realize that my personal preferences for game design are a minority audience, so I'm sort of just going with the flow.

I.E Mass Effect 2 was in a RPG-lite in mind, and had a lot of things I'd change in it, but nonetheless, was a vastly enjoyable game. It is looking like to me H.R has far, far, far more things I like than things I don't like.

mad_red
7th Dec 2010, 05:55
Nobody here is bothered by third person. Most people like it.

But there is no excuse for the lack of a stay-in-first-person option.

Is there any good reason why the option should be excluded? If there is no good reason, Eidos Fails.

Fail when they chose forced third person, and Fail if they release DX:HR without first person option.

Can't be any more rational than that.

MaxxQ1
7th Dec 2010, 06:07
Could you actually be seen when leaning out? For memory it just shifted the camera, and I can't remember if AI/security cameras would detect you if you were leaning out there.

Yes. Countless times I leaned out from behind a crate or from around a corner and the camera would lock on if it was pointed in my direction and I'd have to duck back.

Human enemies would take a little longer to spot you, but they eventually would if you leaned out for too long.

This is why I don't like the TPP cover mechanic. You can see everything going on around you without the risk of being spotted. It's nothing but a cheat.

lithos
7th Dec 2010, 06:10
But there is no excuse for the lack of a stay-in-first-person option.

Because the game isn't for the players. It's for the devs to show off. It's gotta look good for the trailers and the screenshots. We're just meant to "ooo" and "aaah" at how everything looks. Besides, job security in the gaming industry is pretty much non-existent, so all the people working on it have to have something that looks good for their demo reels.

It's funny that they've hired a bunch of Ubisoft refugees. Ubisoft is the king of ram-it-down-your-throat-my-way-or-the-highway game design.

After playing Assassins Creed, I came to the conclusion Ubisoft hires people by putting a dozen applicants in a room with with a dozen Xboxes for them to play.

The one guy who doesn't touch the controller but instead goes around the room and yells instructions at the other players ("All right - get the shotgun, and go down there - no, I said get the shotgun and go there, then kill that guy and grab his rocket launcher- STRAFE LEFT! LEFT OR YOU'RE GONNA GET POUNDED! JUMP OV- oh, look. See. I told you that would happen...") is the guy Ubisoft hires.

Rindill the Red
7th Dec 2010, 07:41
Yes. Countless times I leaned out from behind a crate or from around a corner and the camera would lock on if it was pointed in my direction and I'd have to duck back.

Human enemies would take a little longer to spot you, but they eventually would if you leaned out for too long.

This is why I don't like the TPP cover mechanic. You can see everything going on around you without the risk of being spotted. It's nothing but a cheat.

Sure, but now they can make the AI's better. The camera's won't sit there blinking at you as if you were a spec they were trying to get out of their lens, and the NPC's will react as if they could actually see and think.

Rindill the Red
7th Dec 2010, 07:42
Nobody here is bothered by third person. Most people like it.

But there is no excuse for the lack of a stay-in-first-person option.

Is there any good reason why the option should be excluded? If there is no good reason, Eidos Fails.

Fail when they chose forced third person, and Fail if they release DX:HR without first person option.

Can't be any more rational than that.

Balance.

Stealth would be impossible if you could never see around corners without getting spotted.

SPTX
7th Dec 2010, 08:38
Balance.

Stealth would be impossible if you could never see around corners without getting spotted.

What the...? Either it's a joke or you are actually... too young? Want some more playschool?


Could you actually be seen when leaning out? For memory it just shifted the camera, and I can't remember if AI/security cameras would detect you if you were leaning out there.

Yes you can be seen. But the AI is still slow to react. The mod Shifter make it quicker and also better shot, etc etc, but thats still to slow imo. But at least we have first person stealth, melee weapons and true melee takedowns (you have to aim) !



Je suis content de voir que les NoFraggeurs se réveillent :) mais trop tard fallait venir avant

Dès l'annonce je m'était fait * l'idée que ce serait une merde casual qui mériterait tout juste l'utilisation de ma bande passante. Et connaissant l'industrie qui n'en a rien * branler des joueurs j'avais pas trop envie de m'investir.

motsm
7th Dec 2010, 09:03
The camera's won't sit there blinking at you as if you were a spec they were trying to get out of their lens, and the NPC's will react as if they could actually see and think.How will they ever get the chance? Besides, you don't know how they will react anyway.

Balance.

Stealth would be impossible if you could never see around corners without getting spotted.Ever play the Thief series? I'd guess you haven't.

Stevostin
7th Dec 2010, 09:04
Nobody here is bothered by third person. Most people like it.

But there is no excuse for the lack of a stay-in-first-person option.

Is there any good reason why the option should be excluded? If there is no good reason, Eidos Fails.

Fail when they chose forced third person, and Fail if they release DX:HR without first person option.

Can't be any more rational than that.

That's so rational that we can add
- top view option
- isometric view option
- switch all color to blue option
- play all sounds backward option
- and of course, wheel support.

You know, so the people can chose. Chose is rational by nature, just because you said so, see... ? :P

That being said, option is all we're asking. But option is more than a line in a menu : it implies playtesting. The game shall be balanced and fun without TPP. Like DE1 for instance.

Stevostin
7th Dec 2010, 09:09
And given that it's the same crowd

Actually, not really. A lot of ppl (me included) just created an account and are coming from a famous french FPS forum. I understand you live here and you're tired of barbarian invasion, but you have to understand we were DE players every much (or even more) than you, are having interest in DEHR, and have a right and even a duty to voice our concern. If a thread comes up 500 times, it's either a big concern in term of how many ppl have it, either a big concern in term of how much they have it. If EM isn't using this forum to anticipate what the public reaction and the reviews will be, that's their right. But at least they have the info, which is not only the rant, but also how much often it pops up.

IOOI
7th Dec 2010, 09:13
It's funny that they've hired a bunch of Ubisoft refugees. Ubisoft is the king of ram-it-down-your-throat-my-way-or-the-highway game design.

I think I understand why JJB left Ubisoft while working on Avatar to work on HR. I mean, he would have such a restricted input on Avatar (a Universe set in stone) that it wouldn't be funny.

Stevostin
7th Dec 2010, 09:14
Balance.

Stealth would be impossible if you could never see around corners without getting spotted.


Noob Spotted. How did I finish Thief or Deux Ex without that cheat code you need as a basis ? By hiding in shadows, playing with headphones, leaning quickly, taking risks, improving stealth related implants. It's called gameplay. We want gameplay, that's all.

Blade_hunter
7th Dec 2010, 12:23
Dès l'annonce je m'était fait * l'idée que ce serait une merde casual qui mériterait tout juste l'utilisation de ma bande passante. Et connaissant l'industrie qui n'en a rien * branler des joueurs j'avais pas trop envie de m'investir.

Mouais, en fait j'aurais jamais dut mettre les pieds ici ... j'avais des doutes moi aussi, mais j'ai cru qu'avec l'aide de la communauté, on aurait pu influencer les developpeurs et faire en sorte d'obtenir un Deus Ex digne de ce nom. :/ je suis bien déçu ...
Ils auraient pu faire comme Thief 3 mettre un bouton 1e/3e pers et personne ne se serait plein...

D'ailleurs je ne débat meme plus sur ce sujet, il y a toujours des abrutis qui viennent poster alors qu'ils ne savent meme pas que n'importe quelle vue peut faire l'affaire en furtivité.
Sauf que l'intérret de Deus Ex coté furtivité était de proposer de la furtivité * la première personne pas un limbo indigeste entre les deux vues.


Ever play the Thief series? I'd guess you haven't.

Yeah like everyone who say stealth is impossible in first person. leaning and even tools like an optiwand can do the job. also most tactical shooters have stealth even if that's not their main aspect.

Rindill the Red
7th Dec 2010, 14:59
How will they ever get the chance? Besides, you don't know how they will react anyway.
Ever play the Thief series? I'd guess you haven't.


Noob Spotted. How did I finish Thief or Deux Ex without that cheat code you need as a basis ? By hiding in shadows, playing with headphones, leaning quickly, taking risks, improving stealth related implants. It's called gameplay. We want gameplay, that's all.

Are you forgetting that there is NO shadow based stealth?

This is about making the stealth game-play fun.

Is it fun to be sneaking about and peek around the corner only to get your head shot off by the guard standing silently right there?

Blade_hunter
7th Dec 2010, 15:13
Even if there is no shadow stealth it works; most tactical shooters have stealth, and the leaning is the mean to reduce full exposure.

motsm
7th Dec 2010, 15:29
Is it fun to be sneaking about and peek around the corner only to get your head shot off by the guard standing silently right there?Dying is part of gaming, are you suggesting it should be removed? I really don't understand your argument here anyway, everyone I've seen here that is making any amount of sense is asking for the option of proper first person stealth. You don't have to use it if you would prefer seeing that enemy around the corner using the cover system, or looking at him on the radar. Why is it so hard for you to understand that adding a lean key takes nothing away from your third person camera?

Rindill the Red
7th Dec 2010, 15:53
Even if there is no shadow stealth it works; most tactical shooters have stealth, and the leaning is the mean to reduce full exposure.

So... what? The lean key keeps you invisible? How is that any different than third person camera around the corner? In terms of stealth gameplay.


Dying is part of gaming, are you suggesting it should be removed? I really don't understand your argument here anyway, everyone I've seen here that is making any amount of sense is asking for the option of proper first person stealth. You don't have to use it if you would prefer seeing that enemy around the corner using the cover system, or looking at him on the radar. Why is it so hard for you to understand that adding a lean key takes nothing away from your third person camera?

Noob alert. These guys probably keep their fingers glued to the quick-save/quick-load buttons throughout the entire level. So that they can find out everything they need to by just dying and reloading 20 times.

Gvaz
7th Dec 2010, 15:59
I don't care about the TPS part of DX3. It's integrated pretty seamlessly, and makes sneaking around and cover activities flow better.

I'm also getting this for the PC only.

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
7th Dec 2010, 15:59
So... what? The lean key keeps you invisible? How is that any different than third person camera around the corner? In terms of stealth gameplay.

You are entirely correct. :p This would be a good question to ask the Thief fanboys who ripped the third person features.

Blade_hunter
7th Dec 2010, 16:05
So... what? The lean key keeps you invisible? How is that any different than third person camera around the corner? In terms of stealth gameplay.

Now that's stupid, it never keeps you invisible but less visible, and if you stay too long under the NPC sight (in range) it will spot you or if the NPC is to close of you it will detect you and react.
With a third person camera you will be perfectly invisible since you are hidden and can watch freely what's happening without risking your ass because your character is safely behind cover, while the floating camera can watch everything.

motsm
7th Dec 2010, 16:09
Noob alert. These guys probably keep their fingers glued to the quick-save/quick-load buttons throughout the entire level. So that they can find out everything they need to by just dying and reloading 20 times.What is your problem, really? The option to play the game with proper first person features takes nothing away from you, so what logical reason could you possibly have to argue against it?

MaxxQ1
7th Dec 2010, 16:16
So... what? The lean key keeps you invisible? How is that any different than third person camera around the corner? In terms of stealth gameplay.

Who said the lean keys make you invisible? He said it *reduces* your exposure. As I've said before, it's always a risk to lean around a corner to see what's there, but that's part of the thrill of the game. I think this is where the disconnect is with the two camps - the TP-er's are thinking in terms of TP keeping you invisible, and think that's what the FP-er's want. Believe it or not, the *last* thing we want is to be completely, 100% invisible while in stealth. That would be boring, silly, and100% unrealistic. Sure, it's a game, and isn't supposed to be completely realistic, but suspension of disbelief only goes so far.

Third-person cover/stealth completely removes that thrill of risk *and* makes you invisible. IOW, a cheat. The only time TP stealth has *any* risk involved is when you finally come out of it to initiate an attack, or move to a new location.

And don't give me that crap about smarter AI. The AI will not always 100% spot you when you lean, otherwise, that *would* be frustrating. That's where game balance comes in. With TP, balancing is easier because the enemies *can't* see you when in cover. *AT ALL*. But of course, all nice and safe behind your crate, you can see *everything* at all times.

Stealth is supposed to be challenging. FP stealth with lean is more challenging than TP stealth with skycam. But I suppose this is just more proof that EM are making the game less challenging for all the CoD/GoW peeps they hope to draw in.

MaxxQ1
7th Dec 2010, 16:17
I don't care about the TPS part of DX3. It's integrated pretty seamlessly, and makes sneaking around and cover activities easier.

I'm also getting this for the PC only.

Fixed. :D

Anasumtj
7th Dec 2010, 16:31
There are other options that could have been attempted. A pocket mirror or snakecam could have worked if leaning is too inelegant some peoples' tastes here. Surely in a game like Deus Ex you can conceivably have a gadget that aids in seeing around corners.

But no, EM went for the magical sky camera. How daring.

Fluffis
7th Dec 2010, 16:33
Is it fun to be sneaking about and peek around the corner only to get your head shot off by the guard standing silently right there?

YES! Yes it is!

It's part of the game. I don't want to be invulnerable, even as a stealther.

MaxxQ1
7th Dec 2010, 16:34
There are other options that could have been attempted. A pocket mirror or snakecam could have worked if leaning is too inelegant some peoples' tastes here. Surely in a game like Deus Ex you can conceivably have a gadget that aids in seeing around corners.

Yep, I would have been fine with that, especially since something like that was done in the original DX, at Versalife. There was one of those corner mirrors that helped you to spot the bot and MJ-12 commando around the corner. Of course, if the AI hadn't been so bad, that mirror would also have let them see you...


But no, EM went for the magical sky camera. How daring.

:thumb:

I also agree with what Fluffis said.

The fun of the game is the possibility of getting your head blown off, and trying to minimize the chances of that happening *as much as possible* through skill, instead of eliminating the chances of that happening *completely* through the floating cheatcam.

Stevostin
7th Dec 2010, 16:40
Are you forgetting that there is NO shadow based stealth?

This is about making the stealth game-play fun.


I didn't know there was no shadow based stealth. It's not good news - I remember DE1 claimed to have one although not as detailed as Thief's one. Another "2011 sounds cheap" step back.

That being said, even with no shadow management, that left us with distance, lean and sound. With ranged weapon, that's enough. I am sorry but claiming you need a wallhack to play stealth really is a weak argument.

Stevostin
7th Dec 2010, 16:46
Noob alert. These guys probably keep their fingers glued to the quick-save/quick-load buttons throughout the entire level. So that they can find out everything they need to by just dying and reloading 20 times.

You have a point here. Yes, I play with quicksave, although it's rather one every "challenge clear" step. I would be all in for quick save becoming an option, or limited (like in soldier of fortune) or even removed as long as the game is tested without it. A lot of game are balanced with the idea you can try a difficult section 3 times per minute.

That being said if one game is an appropriate support for quicksave, it's DE kind of game. Those are based on exploring options and complex quest that can be screwed up in many ways, some of them riciulously linked to the game engine flows (all have some).

Xuri
7th Dec 2010, 18:04
Sure, but now they can make the AI's better. The camera's won't sit there blinking at you as if you were a spec they were trying to get out of their lens, and the NPC's will react as if they could actually see and think.

Do you seriously believe this?

The NPCs will probably act as usual : "huh I think I saw something", look for a few moments, then give up if you found a good place to hide.

There are zillions of games out there that work this way (a few classics: thief, deus ex 1, no one lives for ever), why should it be any different? if enemies start shooting as soon as they see or hear something, that would definitely ruin the stealth experience.

Of course you have to make sure to avoid ridiculous situations (in deus ex 1 enemies would sometimes say "I saw a guy in a trench coat", and then give up looking for you, what the hell?) that make the AI look stupid while it's classic & great gameplay.

In one word : Stressfull situation = good! not just black/white situations (nobody sees me/everybody shoots at me)

I don't understand how some people are not familiar with this system (that's the impression I get when a read your posts and others'). There are so many games where enemies have different "awareness status", basically : not suspecting anything / suspecting something - looking for possible intruder / maximum alert - shooting at you.

The only explanation I can think of is people are either totally dishonest or have never played the classic games I've mentioned before (too young?).



PS: as for cameras, I wouldn't mind the alarm starting as soon as the camera sees you. Having to wait for the camera to point at another direction would make things harder, but not necessarily less interesting (you could for exemple have a few augmentations to help you out).

Happy
7th Dec 2010, 18:09
^ remember fracry? If you shoot someone from cover with one shot from a siper rifle - they all know where you are and come running - terrible AI

MaxxQ1
7th Dec 2010, 18:15
^ remember fracry? If you shoot someone from cover with one shot from a siper rifle - they all know where you are and come running - terrible AI

Far Cry was actually pretty good. If you sniped someone, they ran in your direction, but couldn't really find you unless you broke cover, or if they happened to walk right up to you. The AI had a general idea of where you were, and would search the area, without giving up. You had to move carefully to avoid being spotted once you took your first shot, but it can be done.

OTOH, Far Cry 2 enemies locked on as soon as you fired the shot, no matter how well you were hidden. One of many reasons I never finished that game, whereas I've replayed Far Cry several times, and love it every single time.

Happy
7th Dec 2010, 18:19
I love Farcy but never could beat it - thean life took over and I had to move on :(

BTW - if someone shoots at you from a canyon - how would you know from where the shot came? That's what I meant by broken AI

oscarMike
7th Dec 2010, 18:23
Who said the lean keys make you invisible? He said it *reduces* your exposure. As I've said before, it's always a risk to lean around a corner to see what's there, but that's part of the thrill of the game. I think this is where the disconnect is with the two camps - the TP-er's are thinking in terms of TP keeping you invisible, and think that's what the FP-er's want. Believe it or not, the *last* thing we want is to be completely, 100% invisible while in stealth. That would be boring, silly, and100% unrealistic. Sure, it's a game, and isn't supposed to be completely realistic, but suspension of disbelief only goes so far.

Third-person cover/stealth completely removes that thrill of risk *and* makes you invisible. IOW, a cheat. The only time TP stealth has *any* risk involved is when you finally come out of it to initiate an attack, or move to a new location.

And don't give me that crap about smarter AI. The AI will not always 100% spot you when you lean, otherwise, that *would* be frustrating. That's where game balance comes in. With TP, balancing is easier because the enemies *can't* see you when in cover. *AT ALL*. But of course, all nice and safe behind your crate, you can see *everything* at all times.

Stealth is supposed to be challenging. FP stealth with lean is more challenging than TP stealth with skycam. But I suppose this is just more proof that EM are making the game less challenging for all the CoD/GoW peeps they hope to draw in.

:thumb:

MaxxQ1
7th Dec 2010, 18:29
I love Farcy but never could beat it - thean life took over and I had to move on :(

Just guessing, but did you get stuck at the part where Jack is dropped out of the helicopter with nothing but an M-16 with half a clip, and a waterfall you have to jump over to get away from the mutants? That was the worst part of the whole game for me. I must have reloaded 50 or more times before I finally got past that.


BTW - if someone shoots at you from a canyon - how would you know from where the shot came? That's what I meant by broken AI

In Real Life (tm), you could use the sound of the shot to figure it out, although echoes may cause problems with that. Also, if you're hit, you could determine the general direction the shot came from depending on where the round hit you - if you get hit in the back of the leg, they're obviously behind you. If the wound is going at a downward angle, then the shot came from behind and above. Even if the round misses, but hit something close enough to you that you could see the hit, you can still get an idea of where the shot came from.

Ideally, a game would simulate that as much as possible. I don't think it's currently possible to implement that completely in a game nowadays, which is one reason why a lot of games have directional hit indicators on the HUD.

Happy
7th Dec 2010, 18:36
Just guessing, but did you get stuck at the part where Jack is dropped out of the helicopter with nothing but an M-16 with half a clip, and a waterfall you have to jump over to get away from the mutants? That was the worst part of the whole game for me. I must have reloaded 50 or more times before I finally got past that..

That was ultra hard - yes! No, I stopped playing when you got out of the bunker and had to fight 5 or 6 super mutants that shot at you with rocket launchers - how the heck am I supposed to beat that??




In Real Life (tm), you could use the sound of the shot to figure it out, although echoes may cause problems with that. Also, if you're hit, you could determine the general direction the shot came from depending on where the round hit you - if you get hit in the back of the leg, they're obviously behind you. If the wound is going at a downward angle, then the shot came from behind and above. Even if the round misses, but hit something close enough to you that you could see the hit, you can still get an idea of where the shot came from.

Ideally, a game would simulate that as much as possible. I don't think it's currently possible to implement that completely in a game nowadays, which is one reason why a lot of games have directional hit indicators on the HUD.

You are right about all the indicators - but I was laying in cover and shot a guy in the head in a canyon - he died and everyone made a beeline to me - I mean - how the heck did they know where that shot came from? What is this, Deus Ex? (see what I did there?) :)

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
7th Dec 2010, 18:42
F.E.A.R has the best stealth AI I've ever seen. Hated the game to begin with, really grew on me when the AI showed me how unpredictable it was.

MaxxQ1
7th Dec 2010, 18:56
That was ultra hard - yes! No, I stopped playing when you got out of the bunker and had to fight 5 or 6 super mutants that shot at you with rocket launchers - how the heck am I supposed to beat that??

Hmmmm... I don't recall having much of a problem in that part. Sure, it was difficult, but it's definitely not unbeatable.


You are right about all the indicators - but I was laying in cover and shot a guy in the head in a canyon - he died and everyone made a beeline to me - I mean - how the heck did they know where that shot came from? What is this, Deus Ex? (see what I did there?) :)

I don't really know what to say. Did you try it several times from different locations? If so, I can't really say what happened. I don't recall ever having that sort of problem.* In general, the AI in Far Cry is pretty good for it's time, but that doesn't mean there's a couple flukes here and there.

The closest might be towards the beginning where Jack is trying to get into the cave, and there are all those mercs wandering around on the other side of the cove. I usually park myself where I have a clear shot at the other side of the cove, and with a slight mouse movement, can cover the tunnel in the rocks off to the left. This way, when I shoot someone, they all usually head for the tunnel, coming towards me, and I can pick 'em off one by one as they come through.

Xuri
7th Dec 2010, 19:19
What is this, Deus Ex? (see what I did there?) :)

That made me laught :rolleyes:

Good way to get back on topic too.

Rindill the Red
7th Dec 2010, 19:51
Now that's stupid, it never keeps you invisible but less visible, and if you stay too long under the NPC sight (in range) it will spot you or if the NPC is to close of you it will detect you and react.
With a third person camera you will be perfectly invisible since you are hidden and can watch freely what's happening without risking your ass because your character is safely behind cover, while the floating camera can watch everything.

Okay, I get that, but then the devs would have to program two different AI's to account for the different play-styles.

Stevostin
7th Dec 2010, 20:21
But that doesn't matter because there is NO shadow based stealth. It's purely LOS.

Ok, you made your point. It's stupid to say it's terrible because it's actually worth than that.

Shralla
7th Dec 2010, 20:22
Far Cry was actually pretty good. If you sniped someone, they ran in your direction, but couldn't really find you unless you broke cover, or if they happened to walk right up to you. The AI had a general idea of where you were, and would search the area, without giving up. You had to move carefully to avoid being spotted once you took your first shot, but it can be done.

I disbelieve this, because I feel like nobody could possibly have written such a rage-fueled rant about AI and game balance as Robert Coffey did several years ago in CGW if there wasn't something horrible happening.

Jerion
7th Dec 2010, 21:02
But that doesn't matter because there is NO shadow based stealth. It's purely LOS.

Not "purely" by anyone's definition. It's LoS, Sound Propagation and environmental awareness in HR.

Happy
7th Dec 2010, 21:11
Hmmmm... I don't recall having much of a problem in that part. Sure, it was difficult, but it's definitely not unbeatable.



I don't really know what to say. Did you try it several times from different locations? If so, I can't really say what happened. I don't recall ever having that sort of problem.* In general, the AI in Far Cry is pretty good for it's time, but that doesn't mean there's a couple flukes here and there.

The closest might be towards the beginning where Jack is trying to get into the cave, and there are all those mercs wandering around on the other side of the cove. I usually park myself where I have a clear shot at the other side of the cove, and with a slight mouse movement, can cover the tunnel in the rocks off to the left. This way, when I shoot someone, they all usually head for the tunnel, coming towards me, and I can pick 'em off one by one as they come through.

The cave - yes - you get let off the boat and have to shoot the guys to get in the cave - I always had trouble staying hidden :)

mad_red
7th Dec 2010, 21:34
That's so rational that we can add
- top view option
- isometric view option
- switch all color to blue option
- play all sounds backward option
- and of course, wheel support.

You know, so the people can chose. Chose is rational by nature, just because you said so, see... ? :P


It is not rational because I said so, but because:


option is all we're asking.

Nobody is asking for top down isometric views. But a lot of people are asking for first person. And I have heard not excuse to exclude first person.


But option is more than a line in a menu : it implies playtesting. The game shall be balanced and fun without TPP. Like DE1 for instance.

Option is a line in a menu. The word you're looking for is "feature" - something you advertise. I can understand if you would prefer to have a polished game that or something like that, but I on the other hand would be perfectly happy with a yes/no line in a menu, no matter how much more difficult it will be to play without radar and third-person cheat camera. It's unfortunate that critics like myself are portrayed as implacable grumps who demand Eidos to cure cancer and bring world peace.

Yes we hate the lack of first person balancing, and yes I'm guessing most of us will play DX:HR without first person as a prominent feature. But once again I've heard no excuse to remove the option.

To show everyone that I'm completely reasonable: "Where's the option?! The LONG-FORM option?!" ;)

Rindill the Red
7th Dec 2010, 21:41
Not "purely" by anyone's definition. It's LoS, Sound Propagation and environmental awareness in HR.

Wait, Jerion... okay, so he can't provide any answers.

It would be nice to know more about the AI and stealth in general.

Maybe EM could have one of the AI programmers... or the guy in charge of AI talk about it a little bit (that wouldn't be revealing too much, would it?)

Do the enemies have a recognition time? A reaction time? Are they dependent on how close you are, how obscured you are?

When you say sound propagation does that mean they won't hear you through walls (like many guards in Deus Ex annoyingly did)? Does that mean that if you echo down along hallway they will hear you? Do softer surfaces make less noise and harder surfaces make more noise? Can they hear Jensen drop things, or bump into and move things?

Just because they hear you do they immediately know where you are or do they have to go looking for you?

When you say environmental awareness do you mean that they notice when something is out of place (say, a box is moved or a computer has been hacked, or Jensen left wet dirty foot prints on the floor)? Do you mean that they can shift between cover, and advance using cover, and throw grenades to force Jensen out of cover, and retreat using cover, and hide inside vents, and pop out of vents to scare Jensen, and shoot explosive barrels near Jensen, and learn from Jensen, and learn from other npcs, and not run blindly to their deaths when they see a fallen comrade but actually get into cover and look for Jensen, and set up traps for Jensen using explosive barrels and loot, and set up traps for Jensen by attaching mines to walls and running away, and notice when Jensen set up traps for them by setting mines and running away, and use tactics like flanking and suppressive fire, and talk to each other during battle (rather than just shouting stuff like, "we're gonna find you Jensen... you're augmentations look really good Jensen, where did you get them?... Your augmentations would look great as trophies on my wall, Jensen... and, you'll never find'em, Jensen".

Do different enemies and even different npc's of the same type have different levels of ability, like how easily they can see you, how easily they can hear you, how good they are searching for you?

Can Adam wear disguises that keep NPC's from recognizing him at certain distances?

K^2
7th Dec 2010, 21:43
He can't actually answer most of these things. He signed a piece of paper that says so.

Jerion
7th Dec 2010, 21:45
I don't think I can answer those as they haven't been publicly talked about at any length by EM; The NDA (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t191/Zeoman1001/Hi-res%20Eidos%20pics/IMG_1265.jpg) restricts me. I'll find out though, having some public clarification on some of these points would be nice.

Rindill the Red
7th Dec 2010, 22:01
I don't think I can answer those as they haven't been publicly talked about at any length by EM; The NDA (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t191/Zeoman1001/Hi-res%20Eidos%20pics/IMG_1265.jpg) restricts me. I'll find out though, having some public clarification on some of these points would be nice.

Maybe you could talk about the AI and stealth a little... or perhaps EM could get an AI programmer or whoever is in charge of AI to do a little Q and A...

Then you could add that to the F.A.Q.

I mean, unless the AI sucks worse than Deus Ex (which shouldn't be possible by today's standards), they have no reason to hide this stuff from us.

Jerion
7th Dec 2010, 22:08
It's really just a matter of getting the official OK (http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/MES2073.jpg) to talk about things that would otherwise be covered by the NDA. In any case, if I'm given that OK, then I would almost certainly not be able to go into any specific subject at great length. If I do get cleared to speak on it then the FAQ will be revised with the new info.

Blade_hunter
7th Dec 2010, 22:16
Okay, I get that, but then the devs would have to program two different AI's to account for the different play-styles.

In what way ?

K^2
7th Dec 2010, 22:30
They wouldn't, since first person cover would work exactly the same way as the third person cover, minus the third person. It will take a little bit more skill and patience for the player to deal with the AI that way, but that's really up to the player to choose such a route.

Jerion
7th Dec 2010, 22:33
They wouldn't, since first person cover would work exactly the same way as the third person cover, minus the third person. It will take a little bit more skill and patience for the player to deal with the AI that way, but that's really up to the player to choose such a route.

Yep, the largest change would be the level of skill, memory and patience the player has to employ.

Rindill the Red
8th Dec 2010, 01:24
Yep, the largest change would be the level of skill, memory and patience the player has to employ.

So then... what's the point of adding lean-keys? It's harder but hey, that's the gamer's choice.

K^2
8th Dec 2010, 01:43
To reduce the number of frustrating things like tapping a key to partially move out of cover and ending up moving too much. Lean lets you move sideways by a fixed amount every time, so you can take the correct position while still behind cover, shifting all of the subsequent problems you might encounter from dumb luck category to lack of skill category, and that's really what making a game challenging rather than just difficult is all about.

68_pie
8th Dec 2010, 02:05
that's really what making a game challenging rather than just difficult is all about.

This. A thousand times, this.

lithos
8th Dec 2010, 02:24
To reduce the number of frustrating things like tapping a key to partially move out of cover and ending up moving too much. Lean lets you move sideways by a fixed amount every time, so you can take the correct position while still behind cover, shifting all of the subsequent problems you might encounter from dumb luck category to lack of skill category, and that's really what making a game challenging rather than just difficult is all about.

Well put, and the principles work with things other than the cover systems.

Fluffis
8th Dec 2010, 02:44
shifting all of the subsequent problems you might encounter from dumb luck category to lack of skill category, and that's really what making a game challenging rather than just difficult is all about.

Very nicely put.

mentalkase
8th Dec 2010, 05:05
Seriously. You guys are overestimating the difficulty of strafing just to back up your point. Strafing is easy and you know it. Btw you may have seen I asked JJB about the 1st person stealth in that thread. I'm sure a lot of you guys could've asked it in much more depth but nobody seems to have done it that I saw.

K^2
8th Dec 2010, 06:14
I talked to developers about third person. Everyone, including myself, was concerned about it a year ago. I was informed that it was only when you use cover and entirely optional. That I was content with. Then it became known that it's stealth and takedowns. Then stealth, takedowns, and cut scenes. Then stealth, takedowns, cutscenes, and ladders. The list keeps growing despite all previous assurances from developers. I see no reasons to ask questions at this point, because I won't believe a word of what is being answered, and that's assuming it will be answered.

mentalkase
8th Dec 2010, 06:30
I talked to developers about third person. Everyone, including myself, was concerned about it a year ago. I was informed that it was only when you use cover and entirely optional. That I was content with. Then it became known that it's stealth and takedowns. Then stealth, takedowns, and cut scenes. Then stealth, takedowns, cutscenes, and ladders. The list keeps growing despite all previous assurances from developers. I see no reasons to ask questions at this point, because I won't believe a word of what is being answered, and that's assuming it will be answered.

Understandable. I realise that a lot of you have been screwed around, you especially by the sounds of it, but now that things are starting to come to a finish with the game maybe they're ready to clear a few things up. To be honest i'm not expecting a thorough answer to that question but it doesn't hurt to put it on the list.

K^2
8th Dec 2010, 06:55
At this point, it's easier to just wait for the game to come out. Hopefully, they'll make a demo. If not, I'll have to find another way to try the game before buying.

I was thinking of buying a PS3. Might try rental.

mentalkase
8th Dec 2010, 07:02
At this point, it's easier to just wait for the game to come out. Hopefully, they'll make a demo. If not, I'll have to find another way to try the game before buying.

I was thinking of buying a PS3. Might try rental.


It'd be nice to hear about a demo soon.

Hopefully it will be at least a marginally different experience on consoles with the altered interface and AI tinkering for pc.

SPTX
8th Dec 2010, 08:23
Okay, I get that, but then the devs would have to program two different AI's to account for the different play-styles.

No. The same AI fulfil both roles.


Not "purely" by anyone's definition. It's LoS, Sound Propagation and environmental awareness in HR.

Every game with stealth does it. Even the worst. Also environmental awareness are big words that mean nothing. Kind of Words that make jerk most of the actual gaming public but sorry, it doesn't work on "us", the actual gamers.
Just compare with food again. We can eat Fast food once in a while but still prefer quality food. When you want a steak you don't go to a fast food (silly me, I am stealing the analogy to someone else of this thread).


When you say sound propagation does that mean they won't hear you through walls (like many guards in Deus Ex annoyingly did)?
Sound. How does it work?

Jerion
8th Dec 2010, 08:26
I'm pretty sure the food analogy has been thrown around here before. I've used the "recipe" bit myself on more than one occasion. For some reason I recall comparing Borscht and Beef Stew. Not sure if that actually ever happened though.

MaxxQ1
8th Dec 2010, 08:27
No. The same AI fulfil both roles.



Every game with stealth does it. Even the worst. Also environmental awareness are big words that mean nothing. Kind of Words that make jerk most of the actual gaming public but sorry, it doesn't work on "us", the actual gamers.
Just compare with food again. We can eat Fast food once in a while but still prefer quality food. When you want a steak you don't go to a fast food (silly me, I am stealing the analogy to someone else of this thread).

That would be my analogy. But you're welcome to use and abuse it any way you see fit.

Stevostin
8th Dec 2010, 08:28
It's unfortunate that critics like myself are portrayed as implacable grumps who demand Eidos to cure cancer and bring world peace.

Well said, but asking that Game N°3 does have the core gameplay ppl enjoyed in Game N°1 is hardly asking to cure cancer either. :P


Yes we hate the lack of first person balancing, and yes I'm guessing most of us will play DX:HR without first person as a prominent feature.

To be honest, most of people who played DE1 on a pretty big community like Nofrag.com probably won't play DE3 at all - at least not before it sells really cheap - largely because TPC and all the gameplay philosophy that comes with it.

K^2
8th Dec 2010, 14:42
For some reason I recall comparing Borscht and Beef Stew.
You can't compare borshch to a beef stew. Borshch's the thing. That reminds me. I should add beets to my shopping list.

Jerion
8th Dec 2010, 15:04
You can't compare borshch to a beef stew. Borshch's the thing. That reminds me. I should add beets to my shopping list.

Precisely why I'm confused at this memory.

mad_red
9th Dec 2010, 14:30
To be honest, most of people who played DE1 on a pretty big community like Nofrag.com probably won't play DE3 at all - at least not before it sells really cheap - largely because TPC and all the gameplay philosophy that comes with it.

You're probably right. I'm just easy to appease, and trusting to a fault.

Which reminds me. DX4 needs to have an AI that is SO GOOD, that the game begins with MANY CHEATS, and as it progresses it will automatically activate MORE AND MORE CHEATS, so that at the end THE GAME WILL AUTOMATICALLY ACTIVATE GOD MODE.
Sorry for shouting - I did it for effect ;)

Bluey71
9th Dec 2010, 16:07
To be honest, most of people who played DE1 on a pretty big community like Nofrag.com probably won't play DE3 at all - at least not before it sells really cheap - largely because TPC and all the gameplay philosophy that comes with it.

I'm glad you said that, it's what I've been thinking for the last 12 to 18 months.

[FGS]Shadowrunner
9th Dec 2010, 23:55
Dunno, but I reckon this game is going to pull a lot of players out of the woodwork, I've seen how many old GODZ players are on this forums...

MaxxQ1
10th Dec 2010, 07:13
Shadowrunner;1538892']Dunno, but I reckon this game is going to pull a lot of players out of the woodwork, I've seen how many old GODZ players are on this forums...

Did someone mention The Godz?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-t4hU3hhc8

Stick around and listen between 2:50 and 6:05...

Heh... from the same place I am. Been listening to 'em for decades.

IOOI
10th Dec 2010, 19:09
To be honest, most of people who played DE1 on a pretty big community like Nofrag.com probably won't play DE3 at all - at least not before it sells really cheap - largely because TPC and all the gameplay philosophy that comes with it.

OH ****! I'm at the wrong community.

EDIT: OH ****! It's french. :o

SPTX
11th Dec 2010, 09:22
FYI I hate this piece of **** called mass effect. So when I see everyone happy with DX3 being a (better than) mass effect clone (can't be worse anyway), that make me sick.

Pinky_Powers
11th Dec 2010, 11:00
FYI I hate this piece of **** called mass effect. So when I see everyone happy with DX3 being a (better than) mass effect clone (can't be worse anyway), that make me sick.

Yes, but being sick is probably a default reaction for you, and it suits you well, I must say.

SPTX
12th Dec 2010, 09:58
You have your beloved ****
We don't because of you.

As a game designer I call that, a design flaw. That's a basic. This kind of game must satisfy all of its targeted player base, thus it doesn't, it fails.

Now as a Deus Ex (not mass defect) fan, that make me sick.

Pinky_Powers
12th Dec 2010, 10:21
You have your beloved ****
We don't because of you.

As a game designer I call that, a design flaw. That's a basic. This kind of game must satisfy all of its targeted player base, thus it doesn't, it fails.

Now as a Deus Ex (not mass defect) fan, that make me sick.

You're going to have to elaborate for me. I've read your post a few times now, and I still can't understand what you're saying.

Senka
12th Dec 2010, 11:36
That last post by SPTX reminds me of that jessi slaughters dad. THE CONSEQUENCES WILL NEVER BE THE SAME!

Gvaz
12th Dec 2010, 16:13
Why is anyone comparing this to Mass Effect anyways?

It's not Mass Effect.

K^2
12th Dec 2010, 16:18
You're going to have to elaborate for me. I've read your post a few times now, and I still can't understand what you're saying.
It makes perfect sense. He complaints that all of the TPS fans got their ME/ME2/ME3, and popularity of said games screwed up the chances of DX3 being done the right way. Keep that in mind, read it again, and if it still doesn't make sense, schedule a visit to an oculist.

Pinky_Powers
12th Dec 2010, 16:34
It makes perfect sense. He complaints that all of the TPS fans got their ME/ME2/ME3, and popularity of said games screwed up the chances of DX3 being done the right way. Keep that in mind, read it again, and if it still doesn't make sense, schedule a visit to an oculist.

I gotch'ya now. ;)

However, I demand you make recompense for your first sentence. "It makes perfect sense"?? His grammar is beyond poor and he unfolds his logic in reverse... he doesn't even make haphazard sense, let alone anything near "perfect".

Also, he doesn't like Mass Effect, so... :cool:

TheMorten
12th Dec 2010, 16:47
Also, he doesn't like Mass Effect, so... :cool:

The original Mass Effect was incredibly boring IMO, it was like KotoR on the UnrealEngine 3 and with very basic gunplay, while eschewing any melee options. Not my cuppa tea. ;)