View Full Version : Post-Defiance speculation questions

3rd Dec 2010, 20:30
Hi there, folks,

I'm rewriting The Latter Days to give it a better flow - plus, originally, though I had Malek's Bastion in it, I had it as a vampire city, while it appears to be a Hylden place. I want to update the storyline to account for this.

I'm quite interested in what other fans' opinions about certain subjects are. Please speculate.

At the end of Defiance, do you think that Kain realises that the Hylden fought the vampires because they refused to accept the Elder God as a god? He does not comment on it in Avernus (unlike Raziel, he just walks past the Hylden murals in the underground), and in Blood Omen 2, Janos conveniently avoids mentioning this part. So: yes/no? Why?

Who put the enchantment on the Soul Reaver which draws Raziel's soul into it? Is there an enchantment at all? In Defiance, Raziel seems convinced that there is. But Vorador said that he only forged the blade, it was Janos who enchanted it - and Janos seems to be equally confounded on this point. Did Janos put an enchantment to draw the Hylden Champion's soul into the Reaver, and was surprised that it turned out to be Raziel? Did he not put any enchantment at all, and Raziel's soul was drawn into the Reaver because it always has? Did some third party (e.g. the Seer) put the enchantment?

So, the last game's name was supposed to be 'The Dark Prophecy'. Do you think that this might be the prophecy in this thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=55219), the one that's scattered on blocks in vampire places across Nosgoth? If so, what does the prophecy mean, and why is it in French?

Who/what killed Vorador after Blood Omen 2? Or is he still alive in the altered timeline?

Should the moderators permit, I will be posting the story on the forums.

4th Dec 2010, 03:42
For "Does Kain know he's got common ground with the hylden against EG?" .... I don't know if Kain sees farther than the tip of his nose anymore. He seems to be feeling his way along a path opened up by his paradoxes but not really 'planned ahead' anymore. Maybe when they returned him to the future, that part of the story would have been the culmination of his 'grand plan,' but along the way to get there he's been fairly blind. So he'd probably have to be informed of the truth about the hylden when he bumps into them?

For "What's the details of the enchantment on the reaver?" .... The sword definitely was meant for Raziel's soul all along, because plenty of other folks touched it and didn't poof into it like he did. Janos though believed all along in Raziel's vampire-ish-ness; he thought Raz was destined to carry the sword, not be absorbed. So if Janos put the enchantment on to absorb the hylden champ, he didn't know the part about Raz being both heroes. Personally, I'd limit Janos' involvement in the enchantment because dude doesn't seem to remember anything right. So just because he's the last one kicking doesn't mean he was at the center of all the mysteries back when there were lots of ancients to choose from. Speculation now: How they got the blade matched to Raz's soul back before they could have had access to Raziel, I don't know. Reincarnation? One of the ancients back then was one of Raziel's past lives???? Blood sacrificed to the sword so it'd recognize that soul when it ran across it again? ...mEh. Doesn't make sense. They weren't planning to absorb their own champ!

Re: "What's the dark prophecy?" ..... Ha! My own answer to that has nothing to do with official LOK lore. As for why they used French, maybe it was simply a nod to the French-speaking vampire fans and not a deeply meaningful prophecy? I don't know if they've had good sales over there, but It's one of the most universally understood languages and can be spoken in a creepy voice to good effect, so.... I must have pondered that thread before though, because I've built in to my work some explanations for lots of the spooky quotes from the series they've just left hanging: I've got a Word in mind for "When it becomes necessary to utter a word, the planet must be bathed in blood." And For "The Book is the key to ultimate knowledge," I've got a Necronomicon type grimoire----although for that, they might have just been referring to the book runes in Defiance that open the gate to the Hash altar ("ultimate cult knowledge"??) And it was funny to see "Children of terror, buried under the ruins of oblivion," because that's a great fit for some characters I'm burrying under rubble. Coming up with these loose ends is a fun hobby.

For "Who if anyone killed Vorador a second time?"...... The smart money's on Kain, when their interests diverged and Vorador wouldn't go along with the new order. Which may have been the catalyst for Kain seeking more reliable, deader sons to be his backers. But I've never liked that end for Vorador, and instead gave Vorador a ridiculously complicated path through time (ala Raziel) that explains both his resurrection and where he ends up later on. ( I don't recommend doing this! It's a headache. )

Good luck.

4th Dec 2010, 03:50
Who says vorador died what if he simply went into hiding after BO2 waiting for the right time to return maybe elder kain revives him and gives him some info on the future

dumah's wraith
6th Dec 2010, 11:31
Okay, here's what I think.

Kain might suspect, (he doesn't just trust what he's told, not after being deceived dso many times in BO1.), but I don't think he knows for certain, or would care that much even if he did. The Hylden want to take Nosgoth away from him, so he'll fight them, regardless.

Enchantment on the Reaver: There no real way to know how this happened. Vorador mentiones in Defiance that Janosand the others may have enchanted the Reaver. Wh knows? Maybe one of the others was a Hylden sympathiser, or Janos just messed up his enchantment. Maybe Moebius or EG sabotaged it. Maybe one of them interpreted the prophecies better than the others, and did it on purpose. Maybe he was dragged into the sword just by the will of the wraith blade and the pull of history. There's no way to know for certain.

I have to admit, I like the idea that the Ancients enchanted the blade to consume and imprison the soul of the Hylden Champion, that's be a great twist. Intending to aid their own champion, they shot themselves in the foot.

The 'Dark Prophecy', huh? Thing is, the game has plenty of prophecies, it really could be referring to anything. And that was just a working title, it might not have any major plot significance.

Who killed Vorador? Probably Kain. Or he could still be alive. Again, no way to tell.

I hope my completely inconclusive responses are some help to you.

Guardian of Spirit
25th Dec 2010, 20:31
Kain may not know about the true reasons that moved the Hylden to war and so he should discover them.
About the Reaver, I believe Raziel doesn't have any Hylden essence within himself to be absorbed by the sword if the Ancients had put a spell on it; I think reincarnation, though it may seem very speculative, it's the best theory to explain why Raziel; the events motivation is not good, since many characters know that Raziel is destined to enter the sword, several centuries before and at different eras (like Moebius). Raziel might be an Ancient's soul, perhaps the same the made the Prophecy, lost in ether for far too long and, forgotten his past life, brought to live again as Kain liutenant.
About the Dark Prophecy, I've thought about it and I don't believe this is the same prophecy that regarded Raziel and Kain, as Scion of Balance; I like to think this may be the Prophecy of the Dark allies of EG, coming to cast the world in a second shadow, to avenge the defeat of their master.
About Vorador I have no ideas... Sure it's quite misterious...

21st Dec 2011, 19:36
The temporal distortion and paradox which can reshuffle history and create alternate timelines, isn't created at all by the Blood Reaver. It's created by the soul reaver within, who is Raziel's own soul.

Because all of these different histories require Raziel's presence within the Reaver, for the paradox of their creation to take place, whenever Raziel returns to a time created or drastically altered by his soul reaver inside the blood reaver sword, he is required by that history to return to the empty blade, and continue the paradox itself.

As Janos had kept the Reaver for millenia since it was forged by the Ancients in the very very distant past, during their war with the Hylden (despite what Vorador says, he only provided the basic casting of the blade), Raziel's soul could not have been trapped inside it. Yet it must be, for all of these paralel timelines to remain in existance, since they were all created by two blood reavers clashing together, both with a version of Raziel's soul inside them.

So in order for history to keep it's changes, created by Raziel's soul reaver paradox, the Blood Reaver needed to have his soul within. If he refused the sacrifice, history would simply remain locked for eternity in a "timeless" hopeless situation where Raziel never entered the blade, history cannot ever be changed, everything stays as it is, no one can change it, as much as they try to travel back and forth, and the Reaver is always just a Blood Reaver.

This means that history remains unchanged. Raziel is just a human, and a sarafan, never becomes a vampire. Nosgoth is damned, since Kain cannot save it only with the Blood Reaver, nor can the Oracle be defeated, or even seen without the Purified Soul Reaver.

Raziel understood all of this, aided by Ariel and all the balance guardians before her. When the Ancients forged the pillars and the Reaver, they also create a secret forge, that only the Reaver Guardian, who is Janos Audron, the 11th guardian, in shadow to the first ten. He knew that the Spirit Forge was meant to be used by their vampire Saviour, but the Blood Reaver could never have been "forged" within the Spirit Reaver.

Here is where Raziel knew his true mission was, as a "hero". His unique survival within the Abyss, allowed his vampiric gift to survive death, and become a true Spectre, that walks both worlds. Thus can weild both the Blood Reaver, and the Soul Reaver, since he is, in fact the Soul Reaver.

The Blood Reaver cannot be forged in the Spirit Forge, that Janos was guarding, as Reaver Guardian. He knew that only the Soul Reaver can be forged in that Spirit Forge, so he sends Raziel there, without a Blood Reaver. Raziel completes this test, and imbues the Soul Reaver (himself) with Purifying Flame of the Balance Guardians, back to the very first Ancient who was called as the Scion of Balance, from when the pillars were first raised.

Only Raziel had the "free will" to survive death, and remain freely on the other side, using a deadly weapon, and reave souls. Only he had the vampiric gift from the Ancients (from Kain himself, who gave him the largest portion of vampirism from the Heart of Darkness, that belongs to Janos, the Reaver Guardian), to weild the Spirit Reaver.

It was history that forced Raziel to be imprisoned within the Blood Reaver, to allow the existance of the Soul Reaver in the first place, after his fall through the Abyss. As this happened, he embraced the paradox, and became a part of it, living it over and over, losing the memory of it, and accepting it in all other alternate histories of that moment.

But since the Oracle was made of flesh, and capable of feeding on souls, and protecting from their wraith abilities in the Spectral, he could not be reaved, having been a soul reaver itself, perhaps the very first one to feed on souls of the dead, weakening their protection against it. So the Blood Reaver was necessary as well, to fight the Oracle, once it united with the Soul Reaver.

I know it's very hard to understand for most of you, but it's all very clear in my head. Nosgoth couldn't have been redeemed through it's time paradoxes, without Raziel's imprisonment in the blade, having to change all those histories, until Kain found the right outcome.

29th Dec 2011, 23:45
- I believe that Kain is getting a better perspective of what's happening. At least he learned that there are things unseen even after all the time. He became a bit less arrogant when it comes to the learning process. Kain realized a long time ago that Hyldens are up to no good and that their magic can hurt vampires and even defy his power if needed. He's unaware of what's going on but yet he still likes his own kind. What came on his mind after the EG confrontation we can only speculate and it's the area free for anything.
I believe that Hyldens did good because they were defying the EG. Makes me to be a bit sympathetic towards them. And they do seem to posses a cultural history behind. But the subject's generally a taboo.

- The enchantment happened when wraith Raziel killed human Raziel, so I believe. That enchantment still lasts even thou it's not the original one but one that's done in a different timeline (Kains timeline). Raziel was considered to be a Hylden champion since they were luring him one step after another. So we have couple of parties
The Hyldens
Each of them have their own versions of the truth. That's the beauty of it since it leaves you to think about it and eventually find the truth between the lines, seeing yourself as Raziel, the truth seeker.

- No comment regarding Dark Prophecy.

- I find Vorador to be mysteriously vanished or dealt with during the pre-clans era. He was always concerned that Kain will try to get his empire back on the feet. However, I see Vorador to still be alive since Kain still possesses his earring. If Kain hated him so much to kill him - he wouldn't be carrying something on his ear. Umah died for that cause, but misguided Kain (blind by the corruption) killed her. I also believe that Vorador would accuse Kain for the betreyal because there's no Janos there. Vorador might think that Kain killed both Janos and the Hylden lord. Kain would deny it, but Vorador in anger would try to attack Kain, and Kain would kill him (coincidentally or deliberately). Than, Kain makes a promise during the dying wish of Vorador "I will return Janos, you old fool" and puts the ring on his ear, using it as an earring.
Janos, while in the Demon realm, probably got followers of his own or they use him to find a way into the Nosgoth since he was the one being there during the beginning of the pillars era.

- However, I see poetical value there. The earring represents something that can be characterized as "youth rebellion" and since Kain is younger than Vorador he doesn't want to be conventional like him so he probably wears it like that as a trophy of "youth kills the older one" or a revolution (which probably occurred).