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View Full Version : Laeving aside pre-order bonuses for just a moment: chest high walls?



Pretentious Old Man.
2nd Dec 2010, 10:10
Take a look at the now-infamous destructoid trailer for the bonus level: http://www.destructoid.com/details-on-deus-ex-augmented-edition-and-pre-order-items-188738.phtml (And yes, I know it has it's own thread, but that's about something else entirely)

Now, is it just me, or is it facing SEVERE chest-high-walls syndrome? As in, Mass Effect 2 levels of chest high wall syndrome? For me, that was the single biggest problem with ME, and I would hate to see it replicated here. Unless it's just poor level design because it's a bonus mission cobbled together in very little time. Which is not impossible.

Discuss.

K^2
2nd Dec 2010, 10:19
They are definitely there. They don't look quite as artificial, and there is plenty of variation, but you can clearly see objects placed with no other purpose than to create a chest-high cover. I would be surprised if it's going to be as bad as ME, but I'd be equally surprised if you'd be able to play the game without being aware of the symptoms of the choreographed 3rd person stealth.

rokstrombo
2nd Dec 2010, 10:39
Conveniently-placed crates are extremely common in first person shooters whether there is a third-person cover system or not. The frequency of such crates can be used to modulate the difficulty in areas likely to be used for combat or sneaking. From the gameplay footage shown so far, in my opinion there seems to be a slight increase in the number of cover objects in Human Revolution as compared with Deus Ex. There are not a lot of places to hide in a subway, so it's reasonable that the player would choose one of the rooms with conveniently placed handrails to engage the enemy. If the handrails or crates were in every room, then perhaps this issue would be more of a problem but since much of the footage shown so far has included fast-cuts of frantic combat sequences, in my opinion it is a bit early to diagnose Chest-high Walls Syndrome.

Kodaemon
2nd Dec 2010, 11:04
The devs put their hearts and souls into placing those walls, you meanie! :(

Unstoppable
2nd Dec 2010, 11:10
Walls? I think you mean the barricade on the railing. For a story sense it's there so people don't fall over or go through the railing in some spots. For a game play sense it's for cover. Those are not walls though. Walls are

an architectural partition with a height and length greater than its thickness; used to divide or enclose an area or to support another structure; "the south wall had a small window"; "the walls were covered with pictures"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:wall&sa=X&ei=YX73TOeVC4SKlwfPzNSQAg&sqi=2&ved=0CBMQkAE

I wouldn't consider those walls, just cover. What I consider walls usually are built to hold structures and are very high/tall.

Pretentious Old Man.
2nd Dec 2010, 11:24
"Chest high walls" is the accepted gameplay term for the phenomenon. Let's not descend too far into fastidious pedantry, eh?

mentalkase
2nd Dec 2010, 11:40
There's no getting around the fact that with the stealth model they're employing in the game you need regular chest-high cover, we just have to hope they've been clever enough to incorporate it as naturally as possible into the level design. It certainly looks so far that they've done a better job with it than ME, hopefully it's a lot better .. it was highly annoying and immersion killing in ME.

HellKittyDan
2nd Dec 2010, 11:51
I have more of a problem with easily opened man-sized ventilation shafts, but I'm not terribly fussed about either issue.

K^2
2nd Dec 2010, 11:59
Conveniently-placed crates are extremely common in first person shooters whether there is a third-person cover system or not. The frequency of such crates can be used to modulate the difficulty in areas likely to be used for combat or sneaking.
There is a difference between conveniently placed crates, which are as old as FPS genre, and chest-high walls. It's really not so much a difference in the purpose as in the way it's done.

A room with conveniently-placed crates has cover of all shapes and sizes scattered around a room. It might look natural, it might not, but it is generally believable, and there might be some pieces you use and others you don't, and there are multiple ways to circle around between the crates.

A room with chest-high walls has an entry point and an exit point. Between them, there is a path laid out in cover points which you are expected to follow. You might have a few branching options here and there, but either way, you are following a path.

Note that this isn't black-and-white type of deal, and it's rather subjective. You can have a little bit of both going into the level design, and it might feel natural to one player and immersion-breaking to another. There have been a few places in original DX where I thought, "Ah, this is what the level designer wanted me to do." But these were extremely rare. In ME, in contrast, that was every single room of every single level. HR will fall somewhere in between, hopefully closer to the namesake.

Corpus
2nd Dec 2010, 12:11
Nothing can be as bad as when you're in the collector base on ME2. Endless chest-high walls. It was rather pathetic in terms of level design but at least here we're seeing some decent variation.

TheYouthCounselor
2nd Dec 2010, 12:13
I have more of a problem with easily opened man-sized ventilation shafts, but I'm not terribly fussed about either issue.

If you're going to go there, I'm going to complain about the crate trope.

How many wooden crates do you guys see every day? A lot? Do you work in warehousing or shipping? I rarely see one at all, but I do see many cardboard boxes.

Okay to those who see them a lot, do you smash them open? What do you use? A crowbar? Did the crate shatter in one to three swipes? Oh it did? Oh it was made with thin balsa wood you say? Really? That's strange.

Are you also aware that the crowbar is a prying tool? Yes you could've saved and reused that balsa wood box to cut on costs and resources.

When you smashed open the crate, was just a single item inside 20 times smaller than the box? Did it have no protective packaging? No packing peanuts, sawdust, shredded paper, foam, plastic shrink wrap? Huh. That thing is durable because it must've shook like drunken groupie in mosh pit during transport.

lithos
2nd Dec 2010, 12:35
That's exactly one of the things I can't stand in cover-oriented shooters: the novelty of a cover mode tends to take precedence above all else - like why a warehouse is entirely full of only single layer of (chest-high) crates (despite the impracticality of it, it makes it much harder to manoeuvre a forklift through it.) At least in the warehouse, I suppose, there's an excuse to have all the crates laid out in a nice, neat grid.

The other thing is that with the combat so skewed towards cover-based fighting, you end up with extremely cluttered and claustrophobic levels (fair enough, it's all the Xbox can handle, I suppose.) And the only way to deal with enemies, is the rigmarole of the cover-based slapping match: cover, pop up, shoot, cover, pop up, shoot, while your enemy does the same, except one move behind, only hoping that you magically desynchronise just enough for you to get some hits in.

Any attempt to flank or get closer is severely punished; because if the player can do that, they won't use the cover system, and the devs put so much work into it, you'll use it, dammit.

Kvltism
2nd Dec 2010, 12:41
Ugh, Mass Effect's level design was woeful. It's safe to say that no matter how dubious some of the level design in DX:HR may be, it won't get anywhere close to being that bad.

Brockxz
2nd Dec 2010, 12:48
Nothing can be as bad as when you're in the collector base on ME2. Endless chest-high walls. It was rather pathetic in terms of level design but at least here we're seeing some decent variation.

But still we can see some absolutely out of place concrete block on the road infront of some (most likely warehouse) gates. Really convincing :lol: level design. I just hope noone needs to use those gates to drive in or out of the warehouse. It would be really hard if they need to remove that concrete block.

Ok enough with the sarcasm :D

If such things doesn't occur on every level I will survive without going berserk on level designer. :gamer:

motsm
2nd Dec 2010, 12:50
More than the level design in cover shooters, it's the AI that always ends up bugging me. In every cover based shooter I've played, the AI does almost nothing but run instantly to cover. At this point, with yourself also being behind cover, it just turns into Whack-A-Mole waiting for 'em to pop up. Of course half the time they have their hands, legs, and perhaps heads sticking a few inches out of their cover anyway. My god, do I hate games.

Brockxz
2nd Dec 2010, 12:55
More than the level design in cover shooters, it's the AI that always ends up bugging me. In every cover based shooter I've played, the AI does almost nothing but run instantly to cover. At this point, with yourself also being behind cover, it just turns into Whack-A-Mole waiting for 'em to pop up. Of course half the time they have their hands, legs, and perhaps heads sticking a few inches out of their cover anyway. My god, do I hate games.

And it's always funny when there are 2 different options of cover and he is standing somewhere in between both of those covers. There is almost on every cover based shooter such weirdness that AI can't decide to which cover he must run :D He starts to run to one side and then decides to run to other side because on his way to first side he somehow manage to be closer to other side and change the way he is running. :lol: I hope AI in DXHR will be good and we won 't need to see such things too often :D

lithos
2nd Dec 2010, 13:06
But still we can see some absolutely out of place concrete block on the road infront of some (most likely warehouse) gates.

That concrete block is there to prevent unauthorised people from entering the warehouse area.

Um, doesn't every man and his dog have a personal helicopter in this game?

THIS CONVERSATION IS OVER!!!

Brockxz
2nd Dec 2010, 13:13
That concrete block is there to prevent unauthorised people from entering the warehouse area.

Really? Tactical Enhancement Pack trailer 0:28 minute, when Adam shoots his shotgun, that block is just in front of gates. So not only it blocks entering but also leaving the warehouse with big enough vehicle. ;) But as i said, if that doesn't occur on every step at least it won 't bother me enough to come here and say that level design is just plain stupid. For now i am actually quite pleased that it is not like Mass Effect where such concrete blocks was really out of place everywhere.

lithos
2nd Dec 2010, 13:25
More than the level design in cover shooters, it's the AI that always ends up bugging me. In every cover based shooter I've played, the AI does almost nothing but run instantly to cover.

To compensate, the devs normally massively overpower the enemies or have them severely outnumber you.

Of course, the best bit is when you get flying enemies and a massive tank unit pinning you down.

The colony level in ME2 had all those things.

Pretentious Old Man.
2nd Dec 2010, 13:30
The colony level in ME2

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/05-07-07images/Exorcist.jpg#

CONDUCT THE EXORCIST RITES!

3rdmillhouse
2nd Dec 2010, 13:33
Good Jesus...... people *****ing about the walls now??? What's next? the decoration?

sonicsidewinder
2nd Dec 2010, 13:36
Kinda removes the point of being able to make your own cover if cover is already everywhere.

mentalkase
2nd Dec 2010, 13:38
Good Jesus...... people *****ing about the walls now??? What's next? the decoration?

Have you played ME? Now think back to DX. How would you like to play that if the levels looked like they did in ME.

lithos
2nd Dec 2010, 13:49
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/05-07-07images/Exorcist.jpg

CONDUCT THE EXORCIST RITES!

Yeah...that game is exactly why I don't do pre-order, limited-ultra-uber-platinum-director's-cut-edition BS any more. Got burned so badly on that one.


Have you played ME? Now think back to DX. How would you like to play that if the levels looked like they did in ME.

You couldn't fit a Deus Ex level into the Xbox without a shedload of barriers and loading screens.

StingingVelvet
2nd Dec 2010, 13:54
It is annoying when too obvious, and hopefully DX3 avoids this issue, but I have to say that in the moment its usually something I don't notice.

mentalkase
2nd Dec 2010, 13:54
Yeah...that game is exactly why I don't do pre-order, limited-ultra-uber-platinum-director's-cut-edition BS any more. Got burned so badly on that one.



You couldn't fit a Deus Ex level into the Xbox without a shedload of barriers and loading screens.

DX was on PS2 which was less powerful than the Xbox.

3rdmillhouse
2nd Dec 2010, 14:04
DX was on PS2 which was less powerful than the Xbox.

Some levels had to be redesigned, broken down in sections or shrunken in size.

mentalkase
2nd Dec 2010, 14:07
some levels had to be redesigned, broken down in sections or shrunken in size.

pwnt

NKD
2nd Dec 2010, 14:07
Doesn't look particularly obnoxious to me. I've seen far, far worse. I can imagine these objects being in these locations, and to be honest it looks like it could be any number of real life buildings I've been in.

lithos
2nd Dec 2010, 14:20
Yeah, I know it was on PS2, and of course the Xbox could run the original Deus Ex. Just a facetious joke about its pitiful amount of RAM (That's why CODBLOPS has cut scenes every two minutes - they're over-glorified loading screens.)

I should've added "with modern graphics," because it sums up nicely the chief problem of developing for Xbox: MS, the devs, gamers et al, want the same level of graphical advancement seen on PCs, but, someone, don't want to upgrade the hardware. Blood from a stone...


Some levels had to be redesigned, broken down in sections or shrunken in size.

Funny how they never extend a reversed version of that for console-to-PC ports, eh?

3rdmillhouse
2nd Dec 2010, 15:11
Funny how they never extend a reversed version of that for console-to-PC ports, eh?

Sad, but true. I think GRAW and GRAW 2 are the exception that proves the rule.

Rindill the Red
2nd Dec 2010, 15:29
I'll take big open levels and reasonable/non-existent load times over pretty graphics any day.

Consoles CAN handle big open environments, so I don't see who keeps saying that they can't.
GTA, TES, Fallout, B:AA.

It's all about streaming technology these days and streaming REALLY helps when dealing with low RAM.

Back to matter at hand. Most of what I've seen looks natural.

That clip from the "exclusive" mission does include pointless walls though... somewhat disturbing, we'll have to wait and see.

K^2
2nd Dec 2010, 15:41
Consoles CAN handle big open environments, so I don't see who keeps saying that they can't.
GTA, TES, Fallout, B:AA.
Just Cause 2 - because if you need a big bleepin' open environment...

3rdmillhouse
2nd Dec 2010, 15:57
More than the level design in cover shooters, it's the AI that always ends up bugging me. In every cover based shooter I've played, the AI does almost nothing but run instantly to cover.

The hell are you complaining about? Are you expecting the AI to just stand there dumbfounded, in the middle of a shootout, and charge headfirst towards you while unloading his gun? Do you know how many years it took for combat AI to evolve to the point that they've became able to recognize a situation of danger and actually try to improve their survivability by actively seeking cover? :hmm:

AlexOfSpades
2nd Dec 2010, 16:06
To be honest i dont reeeeeally mind the chesthigh walls.

I mean, its one of those gameplay things that you "pretend you're not seeing" to keep immersed.

Deus Ex had those crates as mentioned by Youth Counselor, for example.

I dont reaally care, then. Also because DXHR wont be extremely immersive.

Now, Thief 4 in the other hand...

Rindill the Red
2nd Dec 2010, 16:23
To be honest i dont reeeeeally mind the chesthigh walls.

I mean, its one of those gameplay things that you "pretend you're not seeing" to keep immersed.

Deus Ex had those crates as mentioned by Youth Counselor, for example.

I dont reaally care, then. Also because DXHR wont be extremely immersive.

Now, Thief 4 in the other hand...

There were never any out of place crates in Deus Ex 1. I'm trying to think of an example but I can't think of a single one.

Pretentious Old Man.
2nd Dec 2010, 16:26
I mean, its one of those gameplay things that you "pretend you're not seeing" to keep immersed.
.

http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/

It's an immersive simulator! That kind of thinking just isn't acceptable in this genre.

nomotog
2nd Dec 2010, 16:27
I re watched the trailers and only found one place where the cover looked a little placed. The first one, is at top trailer 21 seconds in. It looks like a bridge railing with no bridge. It's not all random cover, look at 38 it's a street that looks like what a street should look like.

It maybe off topic, but did anyone notice the guards using cloaking and we also got to see a door shot open with a shotgun.

Shralla
2nd Dec 2010, 18:26
Do you have any idea how many chest-high walls there were on Liberty Island alone? I mean really. The original Deus Ex is just as much of a cover-based shooter as this, only the cover functions slightly differently. It still required crouching behind objects and peeking out, and the only way for that to work is for there to be objects to crouch behind. I can tell you right now that this game is going to abuse crates just as much as the first one, which is fine.

Ilves
2nd Dec 2010, 18:39
Main problem with chest-high walls for me isn't the structural credibility of an environment; a degree of abstraction in order to facilitate gameplay is perfectly fine.

I'm much more worried about the cover mechanism. My only experience with 3rd person sticky cover has been with the Uncharted series, and having the same button used both for going into cover and dodge-rolling was just about the stupidest design choice I've seen in a long time. I sincerely hope HR has the controls worked out properly.

Rindill the Red
2nd Dec 2010, 18:43
Do you have any idea how many chest-high walls there were on Liberty Island alone? I mean really. The original Deus Ex is just as much of a cover-based shooter as this, only the cover functions slightly differently. It still required crouching behind objects and peeking out, and the only way for that to work is for there to be objects to crouch behind. I can tell you right now that this game is going to abuse crates just as much as the first one, which is fine.

What are you talking about? There were no chest high walls on liberty island.

There were crates... occasionally, but nothing out of place.

I swear, did these people even PLAY Deus Ex 1?

Shralla
2nd Dec 2010, 18:57
What are you talking about? There were no chest high walls on liberty island.

There were crates... occasionally, but nothing out of place.

I swear, did these people even PLAY Deus Ex 1?

This is one of those times where I'm tempted to start up FRAPS and the game and tell you that you're wrong. What the hell do you think crates are? They're WALLS. That are typically chest-high. If I can stand behind it and shoot out, but crouch behind it and be hidden, it's a "chest-high wall" according to what we're talking about in this thread. All those immovable stacks of crates on Liberty Island? Chest-high walls. All the desks and stone railings in the statue itself? Chest high walls.

NOTHING in those trailers was any more out of place than anything in the FIRST LEVEL of Deus Ex.

Cronstintein
2nd Dec 2010, 19:14
Liberty island also had long stretches of open area with no cover at all which is something you'll rarely see in a TP cover-shooter.
That said, I don't find chest-high-wall-syndrome all that irritating, I tend not to notice.

neoWilks
2nd Dec 2010, 19:19
This is one of those times where I'm tempted to start up FRAPS and the game and tell you that you're wrong. What the hell do you think crates are? They're WALLS. That are typically chest-high. If I can stand behind it and shoot out, but crouch behind it and be hidden, it's a "chest-high wall" according to what we're talking about in this thread. All those immovable stacks of crates on Liberty Island? Chest-high walls. All the desks and stone railings in the statue itself? Chest high walls.

NOTHING in those trailers was any more out of place than anything in the FIRST LEVEL of Deus Ex.
So true... (http://gropingtheelephant.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/LibertyIsland_38.jpg)

Irate_Iguana
2nd Dec 2010, 19:19
That said, I don't find chest-high-wall-syndrome all that irritating, I tend not to notice.

It's so ubiquitous these days that it is both something to be expected and ignored. I see a screenshot and tick off the box that says 'conveniently placed waist-high walls' and then go and analyze the screenshot. It can make for some odd level design in games, but meh.

Anasumtj
2nd Dec 2010, 19:21
Both crates and chest-high walls are used for cover: Yes.

The mechanics and their usual implementation are still very different. You can't honestly argue that they're practically the same.

[FGS]Shadowrunner
2nd Dec 2010, 19:29
Cover is good, more chance we will see decent multiplayer maps one day...

Pretentious Old Man.
2nd Dec 2010, 19:30
I grow tired of saying this, but "Deus Ex had that fault too!" is not sufficient reason for it being excused in the new one. I'm sorry to be the one to say this, but Deus Ex was riddled with faults, which I would find inexcusable if repeated ten years later with no lessons learned!

Incidentally, there is one element in which crates are indeed better than CHWs: they don't typically funnel you down a particular path. They're there, and can be used as cover. It's not an ideal scenario, but it works. Chest high walls, on the other hand, typically bottle up the action into just one or two paths (hence their ubiquity in ME)

This is my single biggest issue with HR right now, by the way...

Rindill the Red
2nd Dec 2010, 20:34
So true... (http://gropingtheelephant.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/LibertyIsland_38.jpg)

WTF? That image just proves my point! Wide open areas.

nomotog
2nd Dec 2010, 21:47
WTF? That image just proves my point! Wide open areas.
I think he was being sarcastic, but it's the internet so who knows. People need to stop being sarcastic on the internet. It dosen't work well in text.

Pinky_Powers
2nd Dec 2010, 22:08
I've had an eye out for this from day one. But I've been very pleased with how they've handled it.

Every map in every game is designed around the requirements of the gameplay. Everything is contrived. But it doesn't have to look that way. Even Deus Ex had a lot of this with overly convenient obstacles and shadows... it can't be helped.
Human Revolution has a cover-mechanic, and it needs a lot of cover objects. But from what I've seen, the level artists have done a wonderful job making everything feel plausible and natural... even if it isn't really. :)

TrickyVein
2nd Dec 2010, 22:14
^^ Otherwise, I hate to say it, you get disasters like Fallout New Vegas. Absolutely no regard for a FPS type of gameplay-environment. DX:HR, let's face it, is a third person shooter. So environments that support that kind of gameplay should be in place.

Jerion
3rd Dec 2010, 00:30
^^ Otherwise, I hate to say it, you get disasters like Fallout New Vegas. Absolutely no regard for a FPS type of gameplay-environment. DX:HR, let's face it, is a third person shooter. So environments that support that kind of gameplay should be in place.

It's got a fair helping of TPS in the combat side of things, but first person combat stuff is there too (there's even iron sights to support first person shooting). F/TPS more like it.

motsm
3rd Dec 2010, 00:49
Sad, but true. I think GRAW and GRAW 2 are the exception that proves the rule.Technically, they weren't ports however. It was an entirely different development team, in another studio. I agree though, this is how thing's should be done if they really want the best products possible on both platforms.

FrankCSIS
3rd Dec 2010, 04:30
I see no love for Gears of War 2 in this thread, and its chest high walls litterally spawning out of the ground when cover was needed. Has there ever been something as pathetic in level design?

I like to rant just as much as the other guy, but I haven't seen something nearly ressembling this in the trailers so far. We've seen a bunch of stacked crates too, offering a less linear path of covers.

TrickyVein
3rd Dec 2010, 04:36
I see no love for Gears of War 2 in this thread, and its chest high walls litterally spawning out of the grown when cover was needed. Has there ever been something as pathetic in level design?

That was a challenging part of the game, after the shard-rain and the train ride. Actually quite good level design. Because that's the kind of game it is.

FrankCSIS
3rd Dec 2010, 04:51
I was thinking about the mother base at the end or whatever, with open areas suddenly spawning walls about thirty seconds before enemies would suddenly rush in. The only thing missing was "take cover" in big flashing letters. I felt like crying a little.

nomotog
3rd Dec 2010, 04:58
I see no love for Gears of War 2 in this thread, and its chest high walls litterally spawning out of the grown when cover was needed. Has there ever been something as pathetic in level design?

I like to rant just as much as the other guy, but I haven't seen something nearly ressembling this in the trailers so far. We've seen a bunch of stacked crates too, offering a less linear path of covers.

I know that part. I found that to be the oddest use of cover in that game. This after you used fruit to to guide a CoverWorm (TM) around a cave. Basically they knew what they knew that people loved their cover system in GOW1, so for GOW2 they came up with as many variants on that system as they could. Turns out there is a lot.

pringlepower
3rd Dec 2010, 05:11
^^ Otherwise, I hate to say it, you get disasters like Fallout New Vegas. Absolutely no regard for a FPS type of gameplay-environment. DX:HR, let's face it, is a third person shooter. So environments that support that kind of gameplay should be in place.

New Vegas works pretty darn well as an FPS, considering that it is an open world game, and you can't expect cover in the middle of a freaking desert. On the other hand, it's also mainly an RPG, so if you can't seem to defeat an enemy due to bad cover, go away and level for a few hours then come back.

HellKittyDan
3rd Dec 2010, 05:20
Do you have any idea how many chest-high walls there were on Liberty Island alone?

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/477/coverkr.jpg

fullhealth
3rd Dec 2010, 05:27
Oh look it's another thread where someone brings up a very relvant and clear-cut issue and the exact same posters that disagree with everything show themselves to defend something they have no idea about.

Are you all paid to do this? Is this actually Eidos's idea of community communication? You guys are so predictable. I see your names and already know whatever you're about to say will be stupid.

TrickyVein
3rd Dec 2010, 05:31
I was waiting for that. Now I can add you to my ignore list pronto. :)

mentalkase
3rd Dec 2010, 05:52
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/477/coverkr.jpg

What mods did you use to make the game look like this if you don't mind me asking?

Jerion
3rd Dec 2010, 06:47
New Vision and DX10 renderer make it look like that.

Pinky_Powers
3rd Dec 2010, 07:03
What mods did you use to make the game look like this if you don't mind me asking?

I'm not a fan, personally. It looks... awkward.

PS. I am using DX10 rendering, though. It adds a bit of life to the visuals, but still looks like Deus Ex. :)

HellKittyDan
3rd Dec 2010, 07:04
I'm using the ENB Series Mod but I have XP so no DX10.

Rindill the Red
3rd Dec 2010, 07:06
I prefer the DX 10 renderer with vanilla textures/etc. Sometimes I'll play the shifter mod.

The high-res textures always come off as too busy.

Rindill the Red
3rd Dec 2010, 07:09
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/477/coverkr.jpg

So what's that? Like four areas with crates?

Nah... just pulling your leg.

But the pictures prove nothing.

No one is saying that there isn't any cover in the game, but that by and large it's pretty open with the cover always being plausible within the game world.

What someone needs to do is pull up a map of Liberty Island in the DX editor, take an overhead snapshot and outline the crates... that would give a better feel for how the cover worked.

Pinky_Powers
3rd Dec 2010, 07:10
Oh yeah, the Shifter Mod is a must! :thumb:

But that's not a visual thing...

mentalkase
3rd Dec 2010, 07:10
Thanks Jerion.

Yeah if it's the same effect i've seen in a Youtube video, I didn't really care for it that much. It has bumpmapping all over the place in an unrealistic way.

There hasn't ever been that many texture mods i've tried that I thought were an improvement on a vanilla game, maybe higher res or something, but they often look a bit amateurish in some way.

TheYouthCounselor
3rd Dec 2010, 08:25
Thanks Jerion.

Yeah if it's the same effect i've seen in a Youtube video, I didn't really care for it that much. It has bumpmapping all over the place in an unrealistic way.

There hasn't ever been that many texture mods i've tried that I thought were an improvement on a vanilla game, maybe higher res or something, but they often look a bit amateurish in some way.

I thought John P's high resolution packs for Thief 3 and Invisible War were top notch. There still were some faults such as him over detailing some things, that shouldn't really be noticable due to distance and lighting and over emphasizing things such as pores on the skin and scars that make some look hideous. But overall it was great.

mentalkase
3rd Dec 2010, 08:38
I thought John P's high resolution packs for Thief 3 and Invisible War were top notch. There still were some faults such as him over detailing some things, that shouldn't really be noticable due to distance and lighting and over emphasizing things such as pores on the skin and scars that make some look hideous. But overall it was great.

I'm a bit picky when it comes to aesthetics, in that I don't need something to adhere to a particular vision to enjoy its art direction, it can look all different kinds of ways, but it does need to have certain artistry to its textures and internal visual harmony, basically I like it to look professional and to look like they put a lot of thought into how each aspect harmonises. I think you can ruin that with mods, if you're not very selective with them at least.

HellKittyDan
3rd Dec 2010, 09:34
I think you can ruin that with mods, if you're not very selective with them at least.

I agree with this. I haven't played much with either the texture or the ENB mods but what I've seen so far hasn't impressed me that much. I also tried the mod that swaps about models for higher poly versions and thought it looked horrible.