PDA

View Full Version : Personal Plea from the community manager



Pages : [1] 2 3

Coyotegrey
30th Nov 2010, 23:20
You don't like the information released today? That's okay! You're entitled to your opinion! Opinion away, and all that stuff! But using this as "proof" that we don't understand the essence of Deus Ex, and then making negative assumptions on the game's quality, isn't just disrespectful to the people here who've spent four years of their lives working very passionately on a labor of love, it's not how I expect the users of this forum to behave.

I understand that many of you have been here for years, and may or may not have grown up with Deus Ex. You're emotionally attached to the series, and that's absolutely fantastic. We couldn't ask for more dedicated fans. Really.

We often talk about the complexity and subtleties that made Deus Ex great, so how about we learn from this game with which we so closely associate. Can we carry ourselves with a bit more grace, and act less on knee-jerk feelings?

By the way, I'm not asking for you to blindly follow everything we do. That's just dumb, and I don't want it.

But...please. Give me a hand here. :( It makes my job easier, and a positive forum can promote more growth and cooperation than one buried under its own negativity. Do you want more forum and community-related contests, exclusive material, etc.? You need to help me grow this community. I can't do it by myself.

Thank you, everyone.

Dead-Eye
30th Nov 2010, 23:26
ummm.... careful man, sometimes it's better to just be cool, clam, and indifferent to the communities *****ing. I really hope this thread doesn't get out of hand.

FuzzyPuffin
30th Nov 2010, 23:30
It would have been nice if somebody official had clarified the fact that the augmented edition contains both preorder bonuses, rather than somebody stumbling on the French Eidos store.

That would have placated a lot of people.

Fox89
30th Nov 2010, 23:31
ummm.... careful man, sometimes it's better to just be cool, clam, and indifferent to the communities *****ing. I really hope this thread doesn't get out of hand.

It had to be said really. Creating a game is not easy and I think I'd go nuts to see people complaining about every single thing before it's even released. Maybe for the people who have put their hearts into it for four years it just rolls right off their backs by now but still...

I think this was all about reminding people that there's a line between 'criticism' and 'insult'. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

ThePrecursor
30th Nov 2010, 23:33
Are you serious Dead-Eye? As the community manager he has the right to voice his thoughts on the developments of this forum and to ask forummembers to tone it down a little.
Why should he be indifferent about it, he's here to manage the community after all.

I'm with you on this Kyle. Disapproving of certain decisions on EM's side is one thing, but being disrespectful to EM and the people that put hard work into this title is uncalled for.

ZakKa89
30th Nov 2010, 23:35
Don´t worry Coyotegrey I got your back!

Irate_Iguana
30th Nov 2010, 23:37
You reap what you sow.

AlexOfSpades
30th Nov 2010, 23:38
Ouch.

Well, Kyle, this is actually something that always made me wonder.

When i joined the forum, after seeing all of those trailers, i was so amazed. But when i started seeing the posts, some of them were very negative.

Of course that after some time i learned that a few of them were quite right. But also, there are a lot of people who are just very negative, all the time. Apparently, it doesnt matter what Eidos does, they'll disapprove it.

And i somewhat felt bad for Eidos. They paid a lot for the game franchise, they paid a lot for all of those hundred employees, all of those months - or years - of hard work...

... and then, when they came to the forums to check people's reactions, everyone was hating what they've done.

I wonder how many "hearts" were broken, inside Eidos Montreal's office?

And i like a lot of what you guys are doing. And i agree with you, that some people should be more... empathic, at least.

3rdmillhouse
30th Nov 2010, 23:42
I remmember something like this is what made George Broussard stop posting in 3dRealms forums..

ZakKa89
30th Nov 2010, 23:42
Don´t get your hopes down negative people on this forum are just a drop of water in the ocean. Have you seen the comments on gametrailers.com or other gamesites? Seriously people are hyped as hell for this game.

Mindmute
30th Nov 2010, 23:42
Not trying to be a jerk here, but if enough people seem upset about the information to warrant this type of plea, then the fault could lie with the information or (and this is the one I think is the real issue) the way it is presented rather than with the people complaining.

The whole pre-order rage could've easilly have been avoided with information that it's bonuses are also on the AE and details about if the ones who can't manage to get an AE will be missing much content or if the extra misson will be available at a later date somehow. There was no reason to withold these details from the start, was there? (innocent question from someone who's oblivious to the intricassies of marketing).

Irate_Iguana
30th Nov 2010, 23:44
(innocent question from someone who's oblivious to the intricassies of marketing).

You're in good company. EM cannot into marketing as well.

IOS
30th Nov 2010, 23:44
You reap what you sow.

Shut up.

On topic, I agree that the fanbase is being disrespectful but it doesn't surprise me whatsoever. This has been one of the most irrational fanbases I've ever experienced.DX1 is the second coming of Christ around here.

Fox89
30th Nov 2010, 23:46
Shut up.

On topic, I agree that the fanbase is being disrespectful but it doesn't surprise me whatsoever. This has been one of the most irrational fanbases I've ever experienced.DX1 is the second coming of Christ around here.

The trouble with official boards is this is where people feel the developers will hear them. So the squeaky wheels come here to squeak. And it's the same pretty much everywhere, the last boards I frequented were the Codemasters ones around the release of F1 2010. I think you had about 100 hate threads for every legitimate discussion. It's just the way people are.

Rindill the Red
30th Nov 2010, 23:46
Ouch.

Well, Kyle, this is actually something that always made me wonder.

When i joined the forum, after seeing all of those trailers, i was so amazed. But when i started seeing the posts, some of them were very negative.

Of course that after some time i learned that a few of them were quite right. But also, there are a lot of people who are just very negative, all the time. Apparently, it doesnt matter what Eidos does, they'll disapprove it.

And i somewhat felt bad for Eidos. They paid a lot for the game franchise, they paid a lot for all of those hundred employees, all of those months - or years - of hard work...

... and then, when they came to the forums to check people's reactions, everyone was hating what they've done.

I wonder how many "hearts" were broken, inside Eidos Montreal's office?

And i like a lot of what you guys are doing. And i agree with you, that some people should be more... empathic, at least.

Actually, Eidos paid nothing gaining the franchise, they already owned it. It was Warren Spector who tried to reacquire it from them and they turned him down. It was their choice but I still feel like they should have let Warren lead up the next project... :(, of course, soon after he was busy with his own new project.

Rindill the Red
30th Nov 2010, 23:47
Not trying to be a jerk here, but if enough people seem upset about the information to warrant this type of plea, then the fault could lie with the information or (and this is the one I think is the real issue) the way it is presented rather than with the people complaining.

The whole pre-order rage could've easilly have been avoided with information that it's bonuses are also on the AE and details about if the ones who can't manage to get an AE will be missing much content or if the extra misson will be available at a later date somehow. There was no reason to withold these details from the start, was there? (innocent question from someone who's oblivious to the intricassies of marketing).

So what you're saying is someone should have gathered all of the information together about the pre-order release of new information and posted it here first in an organized fashion?

handgriffsorgfaeltig
30th Nov 2010, 23:48
Shut up...

a bit harsh, hu


...DX1 is the second coming of Christ around here.

there you have it...fanatics...BUT these fanatics will buy it anyway, besides all the rants...emotions man, emotions...

3rdmillhouse
30th Nov 2010, 23:48
Actually, Eidos paid nothing gaining the franchise, they already owned it. It was Warren Spector who tried to reacquire it from them and they turned him down. It was their choice but I still feel like they should have let Warren lead up the next project... :(, of course, soon after he was busy with his own new project.

Yeah, a Mickey Mouse game. :mad2: It boggles the mind...

Irate_Iguana
30th Nov 2010, 23:49
Shut up.

Oh, the humanity of it! Your sarcastic wit and profoundly philosophical retort has left me questioning the very nature of posting on this forum.This tour de force of linguistic ability has made me reconsider my stance. Thine silver tongue has cut deep into the heart of this foul beast. Please stay thy quill and pester me no longer for I have seen the folly in my ways. Truly there can be no other recourse than to stop posting.

WildcatPhoenix
30th Nov 2010, 23:49
... and then, when they came to the forums to check people's reactions, everyone was hating what they've done.

I wonder how many "hearts" were broken, inside Eidos Montreal's office?

And i like a lot of what you guys are doing. And i agree with you, that some people should be more... empathic, at least.

Give me a break, Alex.

Kyle, I have nothing but respect for you and the hard work you've done trying to gather as much information for us as possible (and I've said so on these boards numerous times). You say all the right things, you seem to more-or-less enjoy your job, and you deliver on your commitments. This is what it takes to earn respect, in any line of thinking.

Your company has not earned this respect. I've read all these "labor of love" comments before. I've seen the claims of how you are all such huge Deus Ex fans. And while this may be true, I don't think your alleged love of the franchise has made one ounce of difference when it comes to developers standing up to the business end of the company.

This latest backlash over the obnoxious and greed-driven practice of pre-order exclusives is just another in a looooong line of protests from this community which have been utterly, completely ignored. Let me make it clear as possible: I don't care how much "love" you or your colleagues put into this game. I DON'T LIKE THE DECISIONS YOU'VE MADE. And many others here do not like these decisions either. We have made our opinions loud and clear, and basically been told to shove off by the development team.

And we're pissed off by it. It really is as simple as that.

Dead-Eye
30th Nov 2010, 23:50
Well if you're overly insulting then you just get labeled a troll. Part of the problem is that Deus Ex fans by their vary nature are hyper critical to varying degrees, pro-gamers even more so. We're all sort of video game critics and some of us are extremely attached to the franchise, and we don't want to settle for anything that isn't perfect. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's not the best way to win friends.

So the team is upset because they have been trying really hard and the community is only telling them everything they're doing wrong. The thing is, there is a lot of stuff they are doing right, but making a game for Deus Ex fans is sort of like making a game for a Drill Sargent. They will never acknowledge your achievements and only tell you to keep doing it but better.

Mindmute
30th Nov 2010, 23:51
So what you're saying is someone should have gathered all of the information together about the pre-order release of new information and posted it here first in an organized fashion?

Nope, but the official website for the game, the one containing a synthesis of all the relevant information, should have had something close to that.

Kodaemon
30th Nov 2010, 23:51
What was that saying about sowing and reaping?

As far as today's situation goes, I'll just say day zero DLC sucks no matter what the circumstances.

As for the game itself, I'm confident this will be a good game by a talented team. It's just that I'm not sure it was a good idea to call it Deus Ex.

ShadowXOR
30th Nov 2010, 23:53
Coyotegrey your job is a lost cause. People never put down the torches/pitchforks. Imagine being the community manager for a game like CoD with a bunch of insane five year old fans! It's sad how people are so disrespectful but I expect nothing to change. Looking forward to Human Revolution and best of luck to you...

Dead-Eye
30th Nov 2010, 23:54
Actually, Eidos paid nothing gaining the franchise, they already owned it. It was Warren Spector who tried to reacquire it from them and they turned him down. It was their choice but I still feel like they should have let Warren lead up the next project... :(, of course, soon after he was busy with his own new project.
That came out today I might add.

IOS
30th Nov 2010, 23:55
Oh, the humanity of it! Your sarcastic wit and profoundly philosophical retort has left me questioning the very nature of posting on this forum.This tour de force of linguistic ability has made me reconsider my stance. Thine silver tongue has cut deep into the heart of this foul beast. Please stay thy quill and pester me no longer for I have seen the folly in my ways. Truly there can be no other recourse than to stop posting.

Shut up.

spm1138
30th Nov 2010, 23:56
You don't like the information released today? That's okay! You're entitled to your opinion! Opinion away, and all that stuff! But using this as "proof" that we don't understand the essence of Deus Ex, and then making negative assumptions on the game's quality, isn't just disrespectful to the people here who've spent four years of their lives working very passionately on a labor of love, it's not how I expect the users of this forum to behave.

I understand that many of you have been here for years, and may or may not have grown up with Deus Ex. You're emotionally attached to the series, and that's absolutely fantastic. We couldn't ask for more dedicated fans. Really.

We often talk about the complexity and subtleties that made Deus Ex great, so how about we learn from this game with which we so closely associate. Can we carry ourselves with a bit more grace, and act less on knee-jerk feelings?

By the way, I'm not asking for you to blindly follow everything we do. That's just dumb, and I don't want it.

But...please. Give me a hand here. :( It makes my job easier, and a positive forum can promote more growth and cooperation than one buried under its own negativity. Do you want more forum and community-related contests, exclusive material, etc.? You need to help me grow this community. I can't do it by myself.

Thank you, everyone.

Maybe, just maybe, if EM don't like the forums being full of unstable exploding fanboys they should stop doing horrible things and expecting people to like it :whistle:

Obviously hokey sales **** like Day 0 DLC isn't something the game designers are heart and soul behind but I still don't see why you're expecting people to be anything but hostile to it. This stuff is universally terrible and unpopular.

I can at least take some comfort in the silent rifle looking pretty imba and game breaking and as such not something I'd really want to play through with anyway.

Are you a volunteer Community Manager?

3rdmillhouse
30th Nov 2010, 23:56
Coyotegrey your job is a lost cause. People never put down the torches/pitchforks. Imagine being the community manager for a game like CoD with a bunch of insane five year old fans! It's sad how people are so disrespectful but I expect nothing to change. Looking forward to Human Revolution and best of luck to you...

You should've seen the massive sh.tstorm at Codemasters when old time OFP fans came to realize the garbage that OFP2 is.

FuzzyPuffin
30th Nov 2010, 23:57
Shut up.

Time to lock this thread.:rolleyes:

ZakKa89
30th Nov 2010, 23:58
The criticism on this board is nothing compared to what happened on the boards of ubisoft, infinity ward and many other forums I might add.

IOS
30th Nov 2010, 23:59
Give me a break, Alex.

Kyle, I have nothing but respect for you and the hard work you've done trying to gather as much information for us as possible (and I've said so on these boards numerous times). You say all the right things, you seem to more-or-less enjoy your job, and you deliver on your commitments. This is what it takes to earn respect, in any line of thinking.

Your company has not earned this respect. I've read all these "labor of love" comments before. I've seen the claims of how you are all such huge Deus Ex fans. And while this may be true, I don't think your alleged love of the franchise has made one ounce of difference when it comes to developers standing up to the business end of the company.

This latest backlash over the obnoxious and greed-driven practice of pre-order exclusives is just another in a looooong line of protests from this community which have been utterly, completely ignored. Let me make it clear as possible: I don't care how much "love" you or your colleagues put into this game. I DON'T LIKE THE DECISIONS YOU'VE MADE. And many others here do not like these decisions either. We have made our opinions loud and clear, and basically been told to shove off by the development team.

And we're pissed off by it. It really is as simple as that.

Again, why should EM give a **** what a bunch of impossible to please virgins have to say about the development of their game? Their audience is bigger then just you guys.

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 00:01
Your company has not earned this respect. I've read all these "labor of love" comments before. I've seen the claims of how you are all such huge Deus Ex fans. And while this may be true, I don't think your alleged love of the franchise has made one ounce of difference when it comes to developers standing up to the business end of the company.

This latest backlash over the obnoxious and greed-driven practice of pre-order exclusives is just another in a looooong line of protests from this community which have been utterly, completely ignored.

Oh, so a developer is supposed to go back and change the game they've made when 50 people on the forum complain about it? "Whoops, they didn't like 3rd person! Guess we should delay the game a couple of months to fix that!"

And yes, obnoxious and greed driven... I can't believe how much they're charging for the extra content, it is quite frankly disgusting. I think it adds up to something like $0. Which is just ludicrous! I mean, that's money I could have spent on food!

Mindmute
1st Dec 2010, 00:01
Again, why should EM give a **** what a bunch of impossible to please virgins have to say about the development of their game?

ToU much?

Irate_Iguana
1st Dec 2010, 00:01
Shut up.

And again he strikes. The horror! The suffering! Yet another lash from this philosophers barbed tongue. I see that time has not diminished your grasp of the poetic. Neither could its cold and endless embrace deny you of your vitriol and righteous fury!




You should've seen the massive sh.tstorm at Codemasters when old time OFP fans came to realize the garbage that OFP2 is.

The forums for Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel got closed and deleted after fan backlash over the game.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
1st Dec 2010, 00:01
The fundamental point of Kyle's post is already lost on some people...


Anyway. I'll just take this opportunity to offer my appreciation to the guys 'n' gals at EM who have worked so hard these past four years to make us a new DX game. From what I've seen so far - you've done an amazing job. I'm very excited and can't wait to play.

So, yeah, THANK YOU very much. :flowers:

ZakKa89
1st Dec 2010, 00:03
Oh, so a developer is supposed to go back and change the game they've made when 50 people on the forum complain about it? "Whoops, they didn't like 3rd person! Guess we should delay the game a couple of months to fix that!"

And yes, obnoxious and greed driven... how dare a company try and recoup their dev spend back by rewarding people who buy it at full price!

Exactly this. But uhm 50? more like 10. Most people on this board are positive.

Mindmute
1st Dec 2010, 00:04
Exactly this. But uhm 50? more like 10. Most people on this board are positive.

Do I count as positive or negative? I get confused sometimes ;)

thedosbox
1st Dec 2010, 00:05
But using this as "proof" that we don't understand the essence of Deus Ex, and then making negative assumptions on the game's quality, isn't just disrespectful to the people here who've spent four years of their lives working very passionately on a labor of love

It seems evident to me that the people who worked on the game aren't the same people who made the business decision to give gamestop an exclusive.

The marketing people need to realise that they've effectively slapped long time fans in the face (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/11/30/deus-ex-inhuman-revolution/).

Instead of coming up with something original (e.g. reward fans who've got a DX1 savegame by throwing in a little extra twist), they decided to offer exclusive content via a retailer that is distinctly non-PC friendly.

oxoxoxo
1st Dec 2010, 00:05
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/4928/94234501.jpg

Dead-Eye
1st Dec 2010, 00:05
Is this news really that terrible? I mean, who didn't see this coming? It was kinda obvious. I would even say that the news borderlines on good because they didn't take the Augmented Edition to some crazy extreme and charge a ridicules price for it, compared to what Activation thinks it can get away with. If I had conformation that the items from the pre-order are in the regular edition I would say this is good news.

I guess it's too bad about the whole extra mission thing, but I really don't care about that. Edit: Dragon Age had DLC mission and they were basically something that gave you extra items and a completely dumb story for like $26 or something. EM seems to be offering more for less.

Irate_Iguana
1st Dec 2010, 00:06
Do I count as positive or negative? I get confused sometimes ;)

You're no alt of mine so you must be one of the positive people.

ZakKa89
1st Dec 2010, 00:06
Do I count as positive or negative? I get confused sometimes ;)

Well from what I´ve seen from many polls and posts most are postive, a lot are mixed (like you I think), and a few are negative- That´s the impression I have.

pha
1st Dec 2010, 00:10
Kyle, as our beloved community manager, I'm sure you can do much better than this.

In the beginning this forum's only inhabitants were die hard fans of the original game (most of them, anyway) who were very vocal about the changed/simplified stuff, they had many suggestions and ideas and in time, as people discussed and interacted with each other these ideas were refined. There were ****loads of discussion about most controversial game mechanics. You know, regen, cover... I'm really tired of repeating these. People came up with many original ideas, only to see them ignored and mockingly referenced in interviews. (Irate Iguana has a good memory with interviews, maybe he'll lend me a hand to find the exact quote.) I know people worked hard, but don't expect us to feel sympathy for a studio for preparing a commercial product, when they release it they will get rewarded anyway.;)

As for your supposedly awesome surprise today, again there were ****loads of discussion about the pre-order/collector/whatever editions, and again EM chose to ignore most of the suggestions and announced an unimpressive pile of garbage. EM must be downright stupid if they don't understand that 1. exclusive ingame content does nothing but divide the community. 2. some people will not be able to get the full package legally merely because of where they live 3. this will inevitably encourage other means of acquiring all content 4. first day "exclusive content" is a sham, no matter how you slice it.

Also, an "exclusive" mission is bad news, it implies that missions are independent "modules" instead of pieces of a whole, as they should be.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1531317&postcount=143

If you haven't already, please spare some time to read this post and address Ash's very accurate and cleverly put concerns, and please make sure that those at EM HQ responsible are aware of these concerns, instead of QQ'ing to us about how difficult your job is.

Mindmute
1st Dec 2010, 00:11
Well from what I´ve seen from many polls and posts most are postive, a lot are mixed (like you I think), and a few are negative- That´s the impression I have.

To be honest, today's reaction was neither about being positive nor negative. Like has been previously said, it was a borderline slap on the face from the marketing people, especially to those who can't pre-order. The backlash from it on rock paper shotgun seems as bad as the one here, so I wouldn't point fingers at the community for today...

LeMoN_LiMe
1st Dec 2010, 00:12
First off, let me say I back everything EM has done except health regeneration.

Secondly, it's your forum EM. If you don't like what people say then you really have 2 viable options:

1. Ban those people / and or delete their negative posts.

2. Listen to their feedback and change to please them.

3. Take down / don't put up a forum.

If you don't like their feedback then isn't that a result of what you do? That is the point of a forum after all.

That being said, there have been some pretty insulting posts in the past that go way beyond criticism.
Just ban them or delete their posts. Anyone who can't show respect while stating their opinion, good or bad, shouldn't be allowed to post at all.

Irate_Iguana
1st Dec 2010, 00:14
That being said, there have been some pretty insulting posts in the past that go way beyond criticism.
Just ban them or delete their posts. Anyone who can't show respect while stating their opinion, good or bad, shouldn't be allowed to post at all.

Sweet. Bethesda forum purge all over again. Guess my time here is up.

FuzzyPuffin
1st Dec 2010, 00:15
I guess it's too bad about the whole extra mission thing, but I really don't care about that.

Did you play the original game? The mission contains a DX1 character, so it's going to be one that Deus Ex fans are going to really want to play.

nordoM
1st Dec 2010, 00:17
Give me a break, Alex.

Kyle, I have nothing but respect for you and the hard work you've done trying to gather as much information for us as possible (and I've said so on these boards numerous times). You say all the right things, you seem to more-or-less enjoy your job, and you deliver on your commitments. This is what it takes to earn respect, in any line of thinking.

Your company has not earned this respect. I've read all these "labor of love" comments before. I've seen the claims of how you are all such huge Deus Ex fans. And while this may be true, I don't think your alleged love of the franchise has made one ounce of difference when it comes to developers standing up to the business end of the company.

This latest backlash over the obnoxious and greed-driven practice of pre-order exclusives is just another in a looooong line of protests from this community which have been utterly, completely ignored. Let me make it clear as possible: I don't care how much "love" you or your colleagues put into this game. I DON'T LIKE THE DECISIONS YOU'VE MADE. And many others here do not like these decisions either. We have made our opinions loud and clear, and basically been told to shove off by the development team.

And we're pissed off by it. It really is as simple as that.

While I wouldn't say it as harsh as this regarding some points (I still like the game very much overall) it still pretty much nails what the problem is here.
The "love" is not really getting through imo, the info given is strictly regulated and quite sparse. Same goes for any media that is released, there is little to nothing being done for "the community" only stuff that the PR dep. had scheduled for release anyway suddenly appears.
Not enough communication. Even now it is not certain if the grenade launcher and detonation packs are preorder exclusive or if they're just better versions of the regular stuff, though that might have changed while I was tipeing as I'm pretty slow...

First post from a longtime lurker btw. hi all!

CoDEllite
1st Dec 2010, 00:18
Did you play the original game? The mission contains a DX1 character, so it's going to be one that Deus Ex fans are going to really want to play.

Isn't it going to be the mission with Manderley?

3rdmillhouse
1st Dec 2010, 00:19
The criticism on this board is nothing compared to what happened on the boards of ubisoft

Specially after what they've done to the Rainbow Six and Ghost Reccon franchises.

FuzzyPuffin
1st Dec 2010, 00:21
Isn't it going to be the mission with Manderley?

Tracer Tong.

Dead-Eye
1st Dec 2010, 00:22
Did you play the original game? The mission contains a DX1 character, so it's going to be one that Deus Ex fans are going to really want to play.

Sept I don't because pre-order/DLC missions are almost always crap.

Coyotegrey
1st Dec 2010, 00:23
If you haven't already, please spare some time to read this post and address Ash's very accurate and cleverly put concerns, and please make sure that those at EM HQ responsible are aware of these concerns, instead of QQ'ing to us about how difficult your job is.

Honestly, I didn't mean for this to come across as a complaint about my job. I LOVE it. The whole idea was to point out that if you want to be heard and catered to, creating a positive community/environment that allows for exponential growth is probably the best way.

Our relationship is mutually beneficial.

My apologies if the post indicated otherwise.

Gvaz
1st Dec 2010, 00:24
I want the Augmented edition on steam, and a whole ton of people I've talked to in person or otherwise do as well.

It would be a day 0 purchase for me.

FuzzyPuffin
1st Dec 2010, 00:25
I want the Augmented edition on steam, and a whole ton of people I've talked to in person or otherwise do as well.

It would be a day 0 purchase for me.

Only if it contains all the preorder bonuses...



Sept I don't because pre-order/DLC missions are almost always crap.

Ye of little faith. This is Deus Ex! Tracer Tong is awesome. It will be good.

Irate_Iguana
1st Dec 2010, 00:26
I'm really tired of repeating these. People came up with many original ideas, only to see them ignored and mockingly referenced in interviews.

Only thing that springs to mind is the JJB interview with spong. That caused a bit of outrage. Generally they just point and laugh, tell people that DX fans are unpleasable, that the forum should be ignored and of course that they listen to the fans.

IOS
1st Dec 2010, 00:26
Coyotegrey, I think that if you just clarified a few things, it would put everyone's minds at ease:

1) Does the Augmented Edition come with the Preorder Bonuses
2) Will the Preorder Bonuses be available for download after the game is released?
3) Are variants of the Preorder weapons (Ex: regular grenade launcher or regular sniper rifle) available in the game?
4) Does the Preorder mission tie in directly with the story, or is it just as a bonus that you would choose from the main menu?

Dead-Eye
1st Dec 2010, 00:27
Honestly, I didn't mean for this to come across as a complaint about my job. I LOVE it. The whole idea was to point out that if you want to be heard and catered to, creating a positive community/environment that allows for exponential growth is probably the best way.

Our relationship is mutually beneficial.

My apologies if the post indicated otherwise.

So, you want us to get our friends to pre-order the game and, if we do that, you'll tell us weather or not the double barrel shotgun is in the regular edition?

CoDEllite
1st Dec 2010, 00:28
Tracer Tong.

Oh, thanks :) . Just hope its a long mission.

LeMoN_LiMe
1st Dec 2010, 00:29
Sweet. Bethesda forum purge all over again. Guess my time here is up.

Well I said with disrespect.


You don't go around cursing and calling EM the spawn of Satan like I've seen a few forum members saying.


I only said ban "disrespectful" people.

Rindill the Red
1st Dec 2010, 00:32
Well if you're overly insulting then you just get labeled a troll. Part of the problem is that Deus Ex fans by their vary nature are hyper critical to varying degrees, pro-gamers even more so. We're all sort of video game critics and some of us are extremely attached to the franchise, and we don't want to settle for anything that isn't perfect. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's not the best way to win friends.

So the team is upset because they have been trying really hard and the community is only telling them everything they're doing wrong. The thing is, there is a lot of stuff they are doing right, but making a game for Deus Ex fans is sort of like making a game for a Drill Sargent. They will never acknowledge your achievements and only tell you to keep doing it but better.

Lol. It's so true. The type of gamer Deus Ex appeals to is really the high-brow connoisseurs of gaming. Some of us (myself especially), love Deus Ex to death and hold it up as the gold-standard of gaming. Deus Ex carries a very real emotional weight for many of us.

It's the psychological principle that when something works, it's not news... but if it doesn't work (or someone thinks it won't work) then all of sudden they need to say something. This negative viewpoint will generate conflict with the positive viewpoint, and conflict generates interest in discussion... that is why all forms of entertainment usually contain some sort of conflict.

"Logic is what other people use to prove that you're wrong."

Take a forum, where there are many many differing opinions... and suddenly you get a lot of negative posts by people who have negative opinions on this or that. And while it isn't the same person being negative in all places, it adds up since those happy with the choices don't have much to say other than... I like it or to try to counter-argument the arguments put forward by those disagreeing with the decisions.

As complaints are made and discussed, people can become polarized and their emotions may flare up... when this happens they stop thinking logically and start acting on impulse... which is sometimes to attack the people in charge, in power... the devs. We are all powerless here, and sometimes they flare out in their impotence and try to hurt the ones that they have perceived as hurting them.

The whole deal with the pre-orders is ripe for this lashing out from impotence at the dev's.

Why?

Because it is the main physical form of interaction between us the consumer and the devs.

When EM cuts out content from the game and makes it conditional, it may very easily be taken as a personal slight. The consumer feels taken advantage of, wronged, by those producing the game. Besides that, they may also see it as "unfair", or not in keeping with their view of how the world "should be".

These perceptions create an acute emotional response in the consumer, and now, under the affects of emotion (hate, anger, sadness; however they react to being wronged or taken advantage of), they want to retaliate against those who have wronged them (but are powerless and so can't), so the most they do is lash out against the dev team with hurtful comments... it's the extent of their power.

I may have come across quite negative on these forums more than once, and I believe I have a few times, in the heat of the emotion, insulted the dev team. For those instances I apologize.

I want to make it clear that I'm very happy that they are making another Deus Ex, and that the majority of what I've seen has me optimistic and excited. I want nothing more than to be able to shower the dev's with my undying praise and adoration.

But until then, I'm going to question, discuss, critique, analyze, and maybe even disagree with the decisions they're making and the particular qualities and characteristics of the game they've made public.

Still, I agree that we need to, as a community, cultivate more mature and civilized discussion.

Coyotegrey
1st Dec 2010, 00:35
So, you want us to get our friends to pre-order the game and, if we do that, you'll tell us weather or not the double barrel shotgun is in the regular edition?

Oh, good lord no! That's messed up.

I can't answer 99% of these questions because I really don't know. I'm so busy planning and doing community work that I'm pretty removed from a lot of dev and marketing work.

Irate_Iguana
1st Dec 2010, 00:40
Honestly, I didn't mean for this to come across as a complaint about my job. I LOVE it. The whole idea was to point out that if you want to be heard and catered to, creating a positive community/environment that allows for exponential growth is probably the best way.

Have you ever seen the Constructive Criticism thread? Probably not, it was poorly maintained and faded into obscurity. Point being that we have tried. We still try. There has been no growth. Only snide comments from devs regarding the forums and fans. Really constructive there, boys! People have been getting fed up with it for some time now and this was the proverbial straw for some.

This community didn't start overnight. Things didn't get to be the way they are overnight. Something has been fundamentally wrong for a very long time. This community has been ignored for a very long time. When they did start to acknowledge the forum it was only to make fun of it. The problem you are facing is that time is essentially running out. People have been pretty cemented in their positions for a long time. Nothing has been revealed that has caused anyone to step away from any problems they might have had. There is no time left to smooth things over. To mediate and influence gently. You are now left with two choices. Accept and abandon or delete and ban.

3rdmillhouse
1st Dec 2010, 00:41
I'll only buy this game if there's a sex minigame between Adam and Fedorova.

Rindill the Red
1st Dec 2010, 00:43
I'll only buy this game if there's a sex minigame between Adam and Fedorova.

If there's a sex mini-game between Adam and Fedorova I'll pirate the game because the devs suck.









;)

pha
1st Dec 2010, 00:50
Have you ever seen the Constructive Criticism thread? Probably not, it was poorly maintained and faded into obscurity.

^

IIRC just after Coyote arrived, many people asked him to read that thread to have a general idea.

FuzzyPuffin
1st Dec 2010, 00:53
I can't answer 99% of these questions because I really don't know. I'm so busy planning and doing community work that I'm pretty removed from a lot of dev and marketing work.

You should find out, because it's not going to get quiet around here until they are answered. Isn't finding out answers for the fans "community work?"

handgriffsorgfaeltig
1st Dec 2010, 00:55
... The whole idea was to point out that if you want to be heard and catered ...


Have you ever seen the Constructive Criticism thread? Probably not, it was poorly maintained and faded into obscurity. Point being that we have tried. We still try. There has been no growth...

in the end it comes to two points,whereof people feeling hurt and ingnored.
1. (the little info) about the content split from the game and so from essential experience.
2. the try to reach team-decisions with our ideas ( MyImmortals collectors brainstormin thread is allways on the toppage and have to be seen once).

Mindmute
1st Dec 2010, 00:55
Have you ever seen the Constructive Criticism thread?
(...)

Point being that we have tried. We still try. There has been no growth. Only snide comments from devs regarding the forums and fans.
(...)


Things didn't get to be the way they are overnight.



This is basically what some of us have been trying to say for a while, I think. Irate Iguana put it very clearly in these quotes, in my opinion, and I'm hoping Coyotegrey noticed them in the middle of the clutter of the rest of this thread.

Jerion
1st Dec 2010, 01:00
You should find out, because it's not going to get quiet around here until they are answered. Isn't finding out answers for the fans "community work?"

Community Management involves quite a bit more than just being liaison between the devs and the forum.

mentalkase
1st Dec 2010, 01:01
Shut up.

On topic, I agree that the fanbase is being disrespectful but it doesn't surprise me whatsoever. This has been one of the most irrational fanbases I've ever experienced.DX1 is the second coming of Christ around here.

You know what. That's exactly the point, in games terms this IS the second coming. To a lot of people DX is the best PC game ever made. EM knew what they were getting themselves into when they decided to reboot the franchise.

I have to say though, there is a difference between getting upset about aspects of the game design or marketing decisions and just rashly stating that EM don't care about the franchise and that they're making a bad game, that you haven't even played yet.

FuzzyPuffin
1st Dec 2010, 01:01
Community Management involves quite a bit more than just being liaison between the devs and the forum.

I never said it didn't. But it's an important part.

WildcatPhoenix
1st Dec 2010, 01:05
I haven't seen any of the pessimists or Haters or whatever you want to call them saying that "Eidos Montreal is the spawn of Satan" or "I'm going to blow up Canada because DXHR sucks!" or such nonsense.

What I DO see are lots of posts like this:


Again, why should EM give a **** what a bunch of impossible to please virgins have to say about the development of their game? Their audience is bigger then just you guys.

Yeah. Great call, buddy. I'm 26 years old, divorced, re-engaged, and working full time with a rewarding career and about to go to graduate school.

But I'm just one consumer. The only value I have to Eidos Montreal is $60 USD. I've been condescended to by guys like Dugas, I've been laughed at, mocked, and insulted constantly on this forum. And I'm sick and tired of it.

"Broken-hearted developers?" "Feelings getting hurt?" As previously stated: GIVE ME A BREAK! You've got to be kidding me. I have zero sympathy for this studio. Zero. And that's putting it as rationally and as politely as it can be stated.

ZakKa89
1st Dec 2010, 01:05
So what does Coyotegrey have to do with the ´constructive criticism´thread after reading it hmmm?

motsm
1st Dec 2010, 01:05
But using this as "proof" that we don't understand the essence of Deus Ex, and then making negative assumptions on the game's quality, isn't just disrespectful to the people here who've spent four years of their lives working very passionately on a labor of love, it's not how I expect the users of this forum to behave.If they showed us more respect by properly representing their game, I would love to show them respect. However, all they seem to do is pander to the old Deus Ex fans by making misleading statements, hiding motives, and generally completely misrepresenting the game. I just want to hear a single honest interview, but all we get is people constantly telling us how faithful they are being to Deus Ex, while doing nothing of the sort. I hold no respect for these guys, and I'll stick handily by the "but they started it" defense.

Deus_Ex_Machina
1st Dec 2010, 01:07
I remmember something like this is what made George Broussard stop posting in 3dRealms forums..

3D Realms done goofed.

They worked on DNF for over a decade and had/have nothing to show for it. Any and all criticism that 3D Realms got concerning that project was well deserved.

Gearbox has taken over development of DNF and now it's actually got a release date other than "When It's Done".

Mindmute
1st Dec 2010, 01:08
So what does Coyotegrey have to do with the ´constructive criticism´thread after reading it hmmm?

At least, have a bigger idea of how we tried, rather than to think the current "environment" on the forum is to blame for the lack of community growth.


( related to this quote: )

The whole idea was to point out that if you want to be heard and catered to, creating a positive community/environment that allows for exponential growth is probably the best way.

Rindill the Red
1st Dec 2010, 01:09
If you want us to love you, you have to work for it... like Valve. Who doesn't love Valve?

Dead-Eye
1st Dec 2010, 01:12
Oh, good lord no! That's messed up.
Don't worry about it. I was just pointing out that your post might have been interpreted that way.


I can't answer 99% of these questions because I really don't know. I'm so busy planning and doing community work that I'm pretty removed from a lot of dev and marketing work.
I think this is probably our biggest problem. The team is overworked and they don't have enough time for us and we are all frustrated because our questions go unanswered and our ideas our not heard.

I think what we really need, at times like this, is to have a developer Q&A of some type. If Dugas could somehow manage to take 10 minutes out of his busy schedule and come here to the forums and answer some of these questions, I think it would do wonders for the community.

But I don't expect that to happen.

FuzzyPuffin
1st Dec 2010, 01:12
If you want us to love you, you have to work for it... like Valve. Who doesn't love Valve?

A lot of people on this forum hate Steam, so a lot.


I think what we really need, at times like this, is to have a developer Q&A of some type. If Dugas could somehow manage to take 10 minutes out of his busy schedule and come here to the forums and answer some of these questions, I think it would do wonders for the community.


This is exactly what needs to happen. This forum will remain in this messy state until our questions are answered. It's as simple as that.

Ashpolt
1st Dec 2010, 01:14
You don't like the information released today? That's okay! You're entitled to your opinion! Opinion away, and all that stuff! But using this as "proof" that we don't understand the essence of Deus Ex, and then making negative assumptions on the game's quality, isn't just disrespectful to the people here who've spent four years of their lives working very passionately on a labor of love, it's not how I expect the users of this forum to behave.

Just to address this point: I don't think any of the negative responses we've seen to today's news* have been comments on the game itself, or whether EM understands the essence of Deus Ex, they've been about EM's business practices and community relations. yes, there are people on here and elsewhere online who doubt EM's understanding of the essence of Deus Ex, or at least their commitment to making a game based on that vision - myself definitely one of those people - but that's not what's come out of today's news.

*The exception to this is, ironically, me: and specifically, my comment about the "UR-DED." But I think it was clear that that wasn't a significant criticism of the game, just another in a long line of minor annoyances that hint at targeting a younger audience. Nonetheless, that could be disregarded easily - by itself, it's not a big issue,

What we're seeing today is people complaining about the fact that EM are treating their customers with disrespect. This is something that's festered on this forum for a long time, as others have noted and so I won't repeat it here (if nothing else, I'm pretty sure you know the story already, Kyle.) But what we're seeing today is a new group feeling that: namely, the people who haven't been on these forums for 2+ years, people who've either joined relatively recently and otherwise been happy with things, or (if you read sites like RPS, specifically their comments section) people who've never even set foot on here. So while of a group of us were here for the 2 year media and communications blackout, and that generated a lot of negativity, a new group are now seeing that disrespect manifest in a different way: namely, they're seeing that the game is being cut up to be sold to us piecemeal. Yes, it's industry standard now, but that doesn't make it any less despicable a practice. Even worse is the fact that here, unless of of the many conflicting reports turns out to be correct, we won't actually be able to get the full game experience: even if we choose to pre-order no matter which store we pre-order with, we'll be missing out on something. And that's just for people in the US: as always, the world outside the US has been ignored initially, so we don't know if we'll be able to get any of it.

So no, no-one's questioning the quality of the game based on this news. If you want to accuse us of being directly disrespectful to the team - which you don't say (you say we're being disrespectful by criticising the game) but which I suspect is really the crux of this - then that's a different question, and it's something we're undoubtedly doing. Not all of us, but certainly a vocal group, myself included. But here's the thing - Eidos Montreal aren't treating us with any respect, and they haven't done - ever - since this game was announced, from completely and utterly ignoring us in every way possible for over 2 years to ridiculing the fanbase in interviews and now to cutting out content from the game and then expecting us to either give you extra money for it or pre-order at your retailer of choice (again, even then only if we're American so far) if we want to get it. If you treat your fanbase with that little respect, you're going to get disrespect back. And I know the obvious (if somewhat childish) thing to say is "well you're doing it too" but a) when we have attempted to offer an olive branch - such as, as mentioned by Irate Iguana above, my "Constructive Feedback" thread - it's gone as completely and totally ignored as everything else the community has done, and b) at the end of the day, we are your customers, so you're the ones who are obliged to start off with offering respect - the fact is, that Constructive Feedback thread should never have been necessary in the first place, because it's not the place for the customer to beg for scraps of information about a product, but that's the position we were put in because EM so stubbornly refused to make the first step to communicate with us - despite their wonderful sounding assurances to the press even early on that they did so. And, as mentioned, even when we offered that olive branch, we were ignored. And you're lecturing us about disrespect?

I'm glad this thread exists, to be honest, because it shows that finally - finally! the community has been acknowledged at all by Eidos Montreal. It's a shame they waited for such an overwhelmingly negative scenario before they acknowledged us, but at least it's happened, even if it is two years too late. Now, instead of immediately jumping back and having a go at us because we're being disrespectful, how about you take a moment to look at yourselves, look at the way you've treated your fanbase - or hell, being as we're talking business here, and it's been made clear that the "personal touch" is worthless, your customers - and see if maybe there's something you can learn from it. I'm not saying we're blameless - we're not - but there are a number of steps that have led to this which EM is directly responsible for, and could have averted, but didn't.

Finally, Kyle: Please know that none of this is directed to you personally, but to Eidos Montreal and Square Enix as a whole. You, personally, have done a fair bit in the communications stakes, but it was two years too late (obviously not your fault) and still too little - and a lot of stuff, like today's announcement, is nothing you could've solved anyway. Some clarification on whether the Augmented Edition includes all the cut content would be good, but still, that's shutting the door after the horse has bolted. But to reiterate: you, personally, are doing a good job with the scenario you've been handed. Your company as a whole though has done an absolutely atrocious job of maintaining community relations.

I can fully see a Bethesda style forum cull coming soon, so if this is my last post, I'm happy with it.

AlexOfSpades
1st Dec 2010, 01:15
Kyle, you're an amazing person with an amazing job, in an amazing company, developing an amazing game.


Dont let the haters blindfold you and your co-workers!

Remember this! Stick with the prod!

Jerion
1st Dec 2010, 01:16
I think what we really need, at times like this, is to have a developer Q&A of some type. If Dugas could somehow manage to take 10 minutes out of his busy schedule and come here to the forums and answer some of these questions, I think it would do wonders for the community.

This idea has been floated before, to mixed response. It would certainly help! Communication, communication, communication.

Deus_Ex_Machina
1st Dec 2010, 01:17
You should've seen the massive sh.tstorm at Codemasters when old time OFP fans came to realize the garbage that OFP2 is.

I was part of that **** storm and yes, OFPDR was indeed an epic fail from the fail developers now known as Trashmasters.

WildcatPhoenix
1st Dec 2010, 01:20
I can fully see a Bethesda style forum cull coming soon, so if this is my last post, I'm happy with it.

I also would wager my time here is coming to an end soon. Hold the door open for me on your way out, Ash.

IOS
1st Dec 2010, 01:21
Yeah. Great call, buddy. I'm 26 years old, divorced, re-engaged, and working full time with a rewarding career and about to go to graduate school.


Wow, I wonder why you ever got divorced? :rolleyes:

Deus_Ex_Machina
1st Dec 2010, 01:22
Specially after what they've done to the Rainbow Six and Ghost Reccon franchises.

Not to mention Splinter Cell.

handgriffsorgfaeltig
1st Dec 2010, 01:22
Wow, I wonder why you ever got divorced? :rolleyes:

maybe , his ex was *****in like you do :rolleyes:

Mindmute
1st Dec 2010, 01:23
Wow, I wonder why you ever got divorced? :rolleyes:

It was obviously his opinion about Deus Ex and games in general. The person he was married to was a Bioshock fan who simply didn't understand why he liked System Shock better. :rolleyes:

(See? I can be snide too!)

Deus_Ex_Machina
1st Dec 2010, 01:25
Have you ever seen the Constructive Criticism thread? Probably not, it was poorly maintained and faded into obscurity. Point being that we have tried. We still try. There has been no growth. Only snide comments from devs regarding the forums and fans. Really constructive there, boys! People have been getting fed up with it for some time now and this was the proverbial straw for some.

This community didn't start overnight. Things didn't get to be the way they are overnight. Something has been fundamentally wrong for a very long time. This community has been ignored for a very long time. When they did start to acknowledge the forum it was only to make fun of it. The problem you are facing is that time is essentially running out. People have been pretty cemented in their positions for a long time. Nothing has been revealed that has caused anyone to step away from any problems they might have had. There is no time left to smooth things over. To mediate and influence gently. You are now left with two choices. Accept and abandon or delete and ban.

Agreed with everything.

FrankCSIS
1st Dec 2010, 01:26
Communication, communication, communication.

The whole communication plan is like a political campaign gone horribly wrong.

What's even more surprising is how an organisation so bent on controlling the message is always one step behind. Why do they insist on allowing others to spread their news, making this entire speculation possible? How difficult can it be to put clear information forward before other websites publish partial news. How can it even be possible that a product up for pre-order is not properly defined? "I don't know what I'm buying" is the last thing you want your people to think!


I can't answer 99% of these questions because I really don't know.

See, that's just unacceptable. Not pointing at you, specifically, of course, but the situation. It's already up for sale, and this simple question can't be answered. If you can't answer, and no doubt you are busy, whoever can should be working overnight to provide the information on the damn website. Sorry to be crude, but it's all a tad ridiculous.

Rindill the Red
1st Dec 2010, 01:28
Again, why should EM give a **** what a bunch of impossible to please virgins have to say about the development of their game? Their audience is bigger then just you guys.

Your fascination and obsession with virgins leads me to believe two things about you...

A. You are obsessed with sex.
B. You are, yourself, obviously a virgin.

3rdmillhouse
1st Dec 2010, 01:30
3D Realms done goofed.

They worked on DNF for over a decade and had/have nothing to show for it. Any and all criticism that 3D Realms got concerning that project was well deserved.

Gearbox has taken over development of DNF and now it's actually got a release date other than "When It's Done".

Funny thing is, 90% of the game was done when 3dRealms sold the IP and handed it over the Gearbox. The irony.

WildcatPhoenix
1st Dec 2010, 01:31
Wow, I wonder why you ever got divorced? :rolleyes:

Wow. Classy.

fullhealth
1st Dec 2010, 01:31
You want a positive community? You shouldn't have broken our hearts by again ruining one of our favorite series. So much hype. So much attention. So much hope - for this. Here's another very delayed "knee jerk" reaction for you.

Health Regen
Compass and waypoints
Highlighted everything
Prequel
Third Person
Retarded AI
Idiotic trailers
Developed by some studio that has only worked on idiot games for idiots
"the four pillars of gameplay"
Moronic dialogue
Cover system for dopes
Made for console so nothing will require any skill or brain activity at all and the graphics will be 2005 standard
Retarded augs for kids
One button takedown cutscenes

And now we have paid pre-game DLC being dangled in front of us and ******* ridiculous auto-win incentives.


One hundred percent confirmed. Deux Ex 3 is a joke. Congrats. Cheers for ruining another series. Dunno if I'll even bother pirating it. Got enough generic console shooters unfinished as it is.

Registered to let you know you ruined my day.

Jerion
1st Dec 2010, 01:32
Keep this thread civil.

Deus_Ex_Machina
1st Dec 2010, 01:32
Funny thing is, 90% of the game was done when 3dRealms sold the IP and handed it over the Gearbox. The irony.

They had over a decade and they chose to keep delaying again and again.

They had their chance.

Gearbox will take all the credit for DNF, better or worse, and I have nothing against that.

3rdmillhouse
1st Dec 2010, 01:33
Just to address this point: I don't think any of the negative responses we've seen to today's news* have been comments on the game itself, or whether EM understands the essence of Deus Ex, they've been about EM's business practices and community relations. yes, there are people on here and elsewhere online who doubt EM's understanding of the essence of Deus Ex, or at least their commitment to making a game based on that vision - myself definitely one of those people - but that's not what's come out of today's news.

*The exception to this is, ironically, me: and specifically, my comment about the "UR-DED." But I think it was clear that that wasn't a significant criticism of the game, just another in a long line of minor annoyances that hint at targeting a younger audience. Nonetheless, that could be disregarded easily - by itself, it's not a big issue,

What we're seeing today is people complaining about the fact that EM are treating their customers with disrespect. This is something that's festered on this forum for a long time, as others have noted and so I won't repeat it here (if nothing else, I'm pretty sure you know the story already, Kyle.) But what we're seeing today is a new group feeling that: namely, the people who haven't been on these forums for 2+ years, people who've either joined relatively recently and otherwise been happy with things, or (if you read sites like RPS, specifically their comments section) people who've never even set foot on here. So while of a group of us were here for the 2 year media and communications blackout, and that generated a lot of negativity, a new group are now seeing that disrespect manifest in a different way: namely, they're seeing that the game is being cut up to be sold to us piecemeal. Yes, it's industry standard now, but that doesn't make it any less despicable a practice. Even worse is the fact that here, unless of of the many conflicting reports turns out to be correct, we won't actually be able to get the full game experience: even if we choose to pre-order no matter which store we pre-order with, we'll be missing out on something. And that's just for people in the US: as always, the world outside the US has been ignored initially, so we don't know if we'll be able to get any of it.

So no, no-one's questioning the quality of the game based on this news. If you want to accuse us of being directly disrespectful to the team - which you don't say (you say we're being disrespectful by criticising the game) but which I suspect is really the crux of this - then that's a different question, and it's something we're undoubtedly doing. Not all of us, but certainly a vocal group, myself included. But here's the thing - Eidos Montreal aren't treating us with any respect, and they haven't done - ever - since this game was announced, from completely and utterly ignoring us in every way possible for over 2 years to ridiculing the fanbase in interviews and now to cutting out content from the game and then expecting us to either give you extra money for it or pre-order at your retailer of choice (again, even then only if we're American so far) if we want to get it. If you treat your fanbase with that little respect, you're going to get disrespect back. And I know the obvious (if somewhat childish) thing to say is "well you're doing it too" but a) when we have attempted to offer an olive branch - such as, as mentioned by Irate Iguana above, my "Constructive Feedback" thread - it's gone as completely and totally ignored as everything else the community has done, and b) at the end of the day, we are your customers, so you're the ones who are obliged to start off with offering respect - the fact is, that Constructive Feedback thread should never have been necessary in the first place, because it's not the place for the customer to beg for scraps of information about a product, but that's the position we were put in because EM so stubbornly refused to make the first step to communicate with us - despite their wonderful sounding assurances to the press even early on that they did so. And, as mentioned, even when we offered that olive branch, we were ignored. And you're lecturing us about disrespect?

I'm glad this thread exists, to be honest, because it shows that finally - finally! the community has been acknowledged at all by Eidos Montreal. It's a shame they waited for such an overwhelmingly negative scenario before they acknowledged us, but at least it's happened, even if it is two years too late. Now, instead of immediately jumping back and having a go at us because we're being disrespectful, how about you take a moment to look at yourselves, look at the way you've treated your fanbase - or hell, being as we're talking business here, and it's been made clear that the "personal touch" is worthless, your customers - and see if maybe there's something you can learn from it. I'm not saying we're blameless - we're not - but there are a number of steps that have led to this which EM is directly responsible for, and could have averted, but didn't.

Finally, Kyle: Please know that none of this is directed to you personally, but to Eidos Montreal and Square Enix as a whole. You, personally, have done a fair bit in the communications stakes, but it was two years too late (obviously not your fault) and still too little - and a lot of stuff, like today's announcement, is nothing you could've solved anyway. Some clarification on whether the Augmented Edition includes all the cut content would be good, but still, that's shutting the door after the horse has bolted. But to reiterate: you, personally, are doing a good job with the scenario you've been handed. Your company as a whole though has done an absolutely atrocious job of maintaining community relations.

I can fully see a Bethesda style forum cull coming soon, so if this is my last post, I'm happy with it.

http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/file.php?2,file=21325,filename=walloftext.jpg

mentalkase
1st Dec 2010, 01:34
Wow, I wonder why you ever got divorced? :rolleyes:

That .. was .. lame.

Anyway, well said Ashpolt. I'm new here and don't have the angst of having waited years for some decent communication. The thing is that even though for some people it's too late, the ball is now rolling. I think it's time for people to lighten up and accept that this game is now a done deal, either you'll come to appreciate it for what it is, or you just won't buy it.

Deus_Ex_Machina
1st Dec 2010, 01:34
Registered to let you know you ruined my day.

You know you done goofed when this happens.

AlexOfSpades
1st Dec 2010, 01:38
Wildcat and Ashpolt, i dont think that there will be any ban, or post deleting, or even a forum "flush".

What you guys - and everyone else - thinks, are your personal opinions and since we have freedom of speech (unless it goes against the ToU), nothing should be done against anyone.

Its almost like McDonalds creates a new burger, and those who dont like it are forbidden to enter McDonalds again. Dictatorship enough?

I may disagree with a few points you guys did so far, here and there, but i think its not reasonable to expect any major post deleting or something.

I doubt its your last post.

El_Bel
1st Dec 2010, 01:41
Oh, good lord no! That's messed up.

I can't answer 99% of these questions because I really don't know. I'm so busy planning and doing community work that I'm pretty removed from a lot of dev and marketing work.

Well then it is time for Eidos Montreal to hire 3-4 more community guys. What the hell? Is that an excuse for a big studio that makes a prequel to the greatest game ever? They dont have the money to hire a guy whose sole job is to connect the Devs and the marketing to the users?


Honestly, I didn't mean for this to come across as a complaint about my job. I LOVE it. The whole idea was to point out that if you want to be heard and catered to, creating a positive community/environment that allows for exponential growth is probably the best way.

Our relationship is mutually beneficial.

My apologies if the post indicated otherwise.

Hell no! We dont have nothing to gain from that, where EM has everything to gain. That whole if you want to be heard you must make this forum big is disgusting. EM will gain money from it and we will still not be heard, its too late to change things. I refuse to be part of the rival marketing, to advertise a game that has butchered the mechanics of my favorite game. I am not going to help EM sell copies. In fact i think i helped lower the sales of this game. I am a member and admin at a few video games forums, some in Greece, some international, and i am the Deus Ex guru on them. When people have questions about Deus Ex they ask me. And they didnt like what they have heard about this game. And i didnt even try to be negative, i just stated the facts. I even made excuses for those guys that you work for.

If EM wanted to create CoD with dialogs, they chose the wrong efin franchise.


Ps: I am not against the people who work in this game. I just think that EM's heads are evil monsters from another dimension.

Edit: Please dont take the time to respond to me. An answer to Irate Iguana is what i would like to see, and if i am satisfied i will take everything back.

68_pie
1st Dec 2010, 01:44
Wow, I wonder why you ever got divorced? :rolleyes:

Mate, there's no need to be a dick.

Dead-Eye
1st Dec 2010, 01:49
Well, to be fair, the devs aren't paid to spend hours reading our, rather long, posts explaining everything we think they're doing wrong and answering all of our questions. They're paid to make a game for hours everyday, and probably when they go home the last thing they want to do is talk about is Deus Ex.

Still, if they think the community is out of hand and they want to do something about it, besides bringing down the ban hammer, then all they really need to do is talk to us. Give us 10 minutes of their time a week and this community will fix itself. James Sallow actually came to the forum and answered some of our question about the book. At first there was a lot of questions but after a little discussion all our question had been answered by the second page. You don't see us talk about the book a lot around here anymore and that's because we actually had some discussion and got back some info.

I just don't understand why, in this day in age, developers feel it's necessary to have a community forum but they don't actually see the need to use it. It's just weird. If they don't want to talk to us, then there isn't a problem. This isn't a problem and whatever we do or say on here doesn't matter.

El_Bel
1st Dec 2010, 01:50
Wow, I wonder why you ever got divorced? :rolleyes:

I reported this guy. You turn.

IOS
1st Dec 2010, 01:57
Your fascination and obsession with virgins leads me to believe two things about you...

A. You are obsessed with sex.
B. You are, yourself, obviously a virgin.

I can admit its the former :lol:

Dead-Eye
1st Dec 2010, 01:59
Wow, I wonder why you ever got divorced? :rolleyes:

OK, I'm starting to think you be trolling.

IOS
1st Dec 2010, 02:01
Alright, I'll admit I went too far there. It was a classless remark, and I do apologize WildcatPhoenix. I was out of line.

Dead-Eye
1st Dec 2010, 02:03
Alright, I'll admit I went too far there. It was a classless remark, and I do apologize WildcatPhoenix. I was out of line.

lol, too late.

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 02:06
Developed by some studio that has only worked on idiot games for idiots
Made for console so nothing will require any skill or brain activity at all and the graphics will be 2005 standard

:lol:


Registered to let you know you ruined my day.

You made mine! :D


Well, to be fair, the devs aren't paid to spend hours reading our, rather long, posts explaining everything we think they're doing wrong and answering all of our questions. They're paid to make a game for hours everyday, and probably when they go home the last thing they want to do is talk about is Deus Ex.

Mmm, most if not all of the team probably have an NDA as well, which means very little can be answered. I will certainly admit though, that I can understand some of the criticisms the community has. Specifically about things being clarified. After the announcement today, it was not clear whether the AE would include all the pre-order content. And it still isn't. Getting some clarification on things like that (when they are asked, not 3 months down the line) would calm people down a lot, guaranteed.

El_Bel
1st Dec 2010, 02:07
lol, too late.

Better then nothing... But still it was a very very stupid thing to do.

WildcatPhoenix
1st Dec 2010, 02:09
Alright, I'll admit I went too far there. It was a classless remark, and I do apologize WildcatPhoenix. I was out of line.


lol, too late.


Better then nothing... But still it was a very very stupid thing to do.

Alright, he apologized, it's one ill-advised comment on an Internet forum. Moving on...

I wonder, how plausible is it that a developer (sorry Kyle, other than you) might actually brave these perilous waters and try answer some of our questions?

AlexOfSpades
1st Dec 2010, 02:11
I guess there's no problem if he apologized.

Only if there's a second ocurrence.

But who am i to say.

Graphics will be 2005 standard?

REALLY?

Dead-Eye
1st Dec 2010, 02:13
I didn't mean to be mean by my last post, I was implying that he had already been banned. Like, right when he posted that.

FuzzyPuffin
1st Dec 2010, 02:14
Graphics will be 2005 standard?

REALLY?

He was being hyperbolic, but he does have a point: consoles do force games to be a lot less pretty than they otherwise could be, because the hardware is five years old.

Mindmute
1st Dec 2010, 02:15
I didn't mean to be mean by my last post but I was implying that he had already been banned. Can you get unbanned?

Do you want to? That was his first direct offensive/agressive post, not his first offensive post in general.

Either way, I doubt it's a permanent ban. He'll probably be back shortly :)

fullhealth
1st Dec 2010, 02:18
Its almost like McDonalds creates a new burger, and those who dont like it are forbidden to enter McDonalds again. Dictatorship enough?


Wow what a terrible analogy.

What it's really like is someone putting a huge sandwich you love in front of you on a table, tomato, lettuce, chicken, peppers, thin slice of tasty cheese, meatballs, you name it. You enjoy eating it so much. It redefined your taste buds and the way you think about sandwiches. You have fond memories of inviting your friends over to eat some of the sandwich.

Suddenly, the same company bursts in the door declaring they have a new sandwich with all the modern bells and whistles and you're going to LOVE it. Mayo, cheddar, bacon salt healthy bread - my god this looks amazing! Everyone's going to want it! It's basically just like your favourite sandwich BUT BETTER! Ads are everywhere! You can't NOT want this sandwich!

But wait... you've been staring at this new sandwich for so long that you've realized your old favourite sandwich has started to grow a bit of mould. I mean, sure, it's still alright... but it doesn't have bacon or that new bread. It's getting harder and harder to justify biting your favourite sandwich when the aroma of this new sandwich is still in your flared nostrils.

So you give in. You apologize to that old faithful, you un-wrap the bacon-laden god of food and you take a huge bite.

Wait... uugh... UGHHHH. *SPIT* GROSS. Someone put LEMON in it. And cabbage! and the tomato looks fresh but it's just red paint! You can't eat this!

So now you're left with a bloated, gross, overhyped sandwich that disappointed you, and a rotting faithful that's barely eatable.

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 02:20
Wow what a terrible analogy.

This coming from the guy who was like "OMG IT WILL HAVE 2005 GRAPHICS BECAUSE OF CONSOLES!!" Your opinion on such things is no longer valid :)


So now you're left with a bloated, gross, overhyped sandwich that disappointed you, and a rotting faithful that's barely eatable.

Somebody REALLY doesn't like 3rd person view!

mentalkase
1st Dec 2010, 02:27
DX's graphics aren't overly impressive, they're hardly Crysis 2 standard. They're kind of artistic though. I'll take artistic over impressive in a DX game any day.

thedosbox
1st Dec 2010, 02:28
He was being hyperbolic, but he does have a point: consoles do force games to be a lot less pretty than they otherwise could be, because the hardware is five years old.

Well, at least the game is staying true to it's roots - DX1 graphics weren't state of the art when it was released ;)

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 02:30
DX's graphics aren't overly impressive, they're hardly Crysis 2 standard. They're kind of artistic though. I'll take artistic over impressive in a DX game any day.

No, they're not, but nothing is! What games look better than DX3? On consoles I'd say it's more or less unrivalled (absolutely unrivalled in anything approaching DX3's scale) and on PC there are probably a few contenders but nobody has pointed them out so far!

FuzzyPuffin
1st Dec 2010, 02:31
Well, at least the game is staying true to it's roots - DX1 graphics weren't state of the art when it was released ;)

It did have epic system requirements, though. I remember playing the game on my iMac 350 @ 20-25 FPS...it was painful, but I loved every minute of it anyway.

mentalkase
1st Dec 2010, 02:34
No, they're not, but nothing is! What games look better than DX3? On consoles I'd say it's more or less unrivalled (absolutely unrivalled in anything approaching DX3's scale) and on PC there are probably a few contenders but nobody has pointed them out so far!

Well let me put it this way. I think it looks great, but i'm inclined to think it's not a technical tour-de-force compared to some other shooters.

fullhealth
1st Dec 2010, 02:38
This coming from the guy who was like "OMG IT WILL HAVE 2005 GRAPHICS BECAUSE OF CONSOLES!!" Your opinion on such things is no longer valid :)


That coming from the guy whos idea of a counter point is smiling emoticons.

Your opinion was never valid.

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 02:45
That coming from the guy whos idea of a counter point is smiling emoticons.

Your opinion was never valid.

I wasn't arguing, I was merely laughing at your ludicrous unsupported nonsense. If you CAN support your argument then I'm sure you can give me a nice long list of PC games that look better than DX3, so that we can all compare screenshots and agree with you. You also said EM '"made idiot games for idiots". You can go ahead and provide a list of such games as well. Though seeing as I believe this is the studio's first independent title you may struggle with that, and the Eidos name has been on Tomb Raider, Hitman, and Batman: AA. None of which are "idiot games for idiots"

Starting to see why I laughed?

TrickyVein
1st Dec 2010, 02:45
I've said this before.

http://img574.imageshack.us/img574/57/lara05.jpg

There is nothing wrong with the TR/CD engine. It is capable of great beauty, and in the hands of some pretty competent level designers and concept artists (the likes of which reside in great numbers it seems at EM from what we've seen so far) the game will probably end up looking better *stylistically, say* than most other projects out there.

I am very excited about the animated-esque look that EM is going for, it looks very polished and consistent. And it's maintaining that consistency and devotion to quality that makes a good game a great game. That's what I care about: well designed environments, convincing atmospheres and inspiring spaces.

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 02:51
I've said this before.

There is nothing wrong with the TR/CD engine. It is capable of great beauty, and in the hands of some pretty competent level designers and concept artists (the likes of which reside in great numbers it seems at EM from what we've seen so far) the game will probably end up looking better *stylistically, say* than most other projects out there.

I am very excited about the animated-esque look that EM is going for, it looks very polished and consistent. And it's maintaining that consistency and devotion to quality that makes a good game a great game. That's what I care about: well designed environments, convincing atmospheres and inspiring spaces.

I completed Underworld about an hour ago. Beautiful game, Crystal Dynamics did a wonderful job :)

Is this the engine that EM are using? ...I assumed they developed something brand new but I may be wrong.

TrickyVein
1st Dec 2010, 02:53
...it's based off of the same engine, yes, though I'm sure they've made their fair share of modifications to it along the way.

Congrats on beating Uworld! I think I immediately started a new game and got every damn one of those tetrahedral-artifacts and relics in my next play-through.

In case you haven't already, the relic in Xibalba (S. Mexico) is a real punja to get to.

Pinky_Powers
1st Dec 2010, 02:54
I've kept quiet here for a good long while now. I've read through the thread in its entirety, and thought on what to say. I think I've settled on opening with a nice crisp and chipper note:

Human Revolution looks like an amazing product. The passion of the Team is evident on every level. There's a very real chance this game could stand beside Deus Ex and not shrink in disgrace. I can't say that for any other hybrid game of this sort. And so there is no greater compliment I can offer.

Now... onto the matter at hand:

I wish I could say the forum is being unreasonable, as they so often are. But I can't. Yes, we're seeing gross exaggeration again, but there's no escaping it... this is a very real case of reaping what you sow.

Removing content from the game for the sake of pre-order bulls**t and DLC is a three-tongued lash against our tender hide... people are going to react poorly. These business maneuvers are hideous and shameful, and every company that does it should lose everything they have and never regain a single coin until the end of all things.

If that is the weird dance EM is practicing, even now in its infancy, there is an awful lot of treachery in their DNA and we should cower and scratch out our eyes and go into hiding like dirty hermits, for the future is too horrid to look upon.

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 02:54
...it's based off of the same engine, yes, though I'm sure they've made their fair share of modifications to it along the way.

Excellent! I had no idea, thanks :)

luminar
1st Dec 2010, 02:56
I've kept quiet here for a good long while now. I've read through the thread in its entirety, and thought on what to say. I think I've settled on opening with a nice crisp and chipper note:

Human Revolution looks like an amazing product. The passion of the Team is evident on every level. There's a very real chance this game could stand beside Deus Ex and not shrink in disgrace. I can't say that for any other hybrid game of this sort. And so there is no greater compliment I can offer.

Now... onto the matter at hand:

I wish I could say the forum is being unreasonable, as they so often are. But I can't. Yes, we're seeing gross exaggeration again, but there's no escaping it... this is a very real case of reaping what you sow.

Removing content from the game for the sake of pre-order bulls**t and DLC is a three-tongued lash against our tender hide... people are going to react poorly. These business maneuvers are hideous and shameful, and every company that does it should lose everything they have and never regain a single coin until the end of all things.

If that is the weird dance EM is practicing, even now in its infancy, there is an awful lot of treachery in their DNA and we should cower and scratch out our eyes and go into hiding like dirty hermits, for the future is too horrid to look upon.

So E.M. is... Cthullu?!

TrickyVein
1st Dec 2010, 02:57
Removing content from the game for the sake of pre-order bulls**t and DLC is a three-tongued lash against our tender hide... people are going to react poorly. These business maneuvers are hideous and shameful, and every company that does it should lose everything they have and never regain a single coin until the end of all things.

If that is the weird dance EM is practicing, even now in its infancy, there is an awful lot of treachery in their DNA and we should cower and scratch out our eyes and go into hiding like dirty hermits, for the future is too horrid to look upon.

A veritable **** storm blew up in between waking up this morning and just now sitting down my machine it seems like, so if it is really as you say and what many others have been saying than this is a sad day indeed.

fullhealth
1st Dec 2010, 02:58
I've said this before.
There is nothing wrong with the TR/CD engine. It is capable of great beauty, and in the hands of some pretty competent level designers and concept artists (the likes of which reside in great numbers it seems at EM from what we've seen so far) the game will probably end up looking better *stylistically, say* than most other projects out there.
I am very excited about the animated-esque look that EM is going for, it looks very polished and consistent. And it's

Dudes - the term "graphics" doesn't strictly mean "hey bro take a screenshot and see if it looks good"

Graphics encapulates, level size, FPS, dynamic lighting, character detail, frames of animation, minor details - all things that have to be hugely restricted (and have been) for the sake of the lesser power of consoles.

Just defending my very reasonable accusation.

Rindill the Red
1st Dec 2010, 03:04
He was being hyperbolic, but he does have a point: consoles do force games to be a lot less pretty than they otherwise could be, because the hardware is five years old.

This is a + in my books, it stabilizes the PC market. No more Crysis's. Upgrade your computer once every console cycle and that's it... in fact, it makes it cheaper to go PC over consoles... and you are still getting better graphics on PC.

FrankCSIS
1st Dec 2010, 03:05
What saddens me the most about this exclusive mission is that it taps directly into DX nostalgia as a main selling point. Save an old DX favourite! Buy the exclusive content now!

Really guys? Isn't that a bit low? A bit, dare I say, disrespectful?

It doesn't take anything away from your hard work of course. It's just that class completely went out of the window with this low blow.

thedosbox
1st Dec 2010, 03:05
Dudes - the term "graphics" doesn't strictly mean "hey bro take a screenshot and see if it looks good"

Graphics encapulates, level size, FPS, dynamic lighting, character detail, frames of animation, minor details - all things that have to be hugely restricted (and have been) for the sake of the lesser power of consoles.

Just defending my very reasonable accusation.

Nice of you to turn a thread about the community into a PC vs console war. Class act :thumb:

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 03:06
Graphics encapulates, level size, FPS, dynamic lighting, character detail, frames of animation, minor details - all things that have to be hugely restricted (and have been) for the sake of the lesser power of consoles.

None of these things were an issue on consoles in the game that Tricky took a screenshot of. All that modern consoles lack are the computational power to add all the extras in afterwards. You wont get any Anti-aliasing on the console version, for example. Your textures won't be filtered as thoroughly. The shadows wont be set to their most detailed setting. Everything else is more or less unaffected, and the things that ARE affected you can simply flip to "on" in the PC version.


Nice of you to turn a thread about the community into a PC vs console war. Class act

...It happened so gradually I didn't even notice! Right, back on topic.

fullhealth
1st Dec 2010, 03:10
Starting to see why I laughed?

If you're laughing it's nervously. Go back to your smiling emoticon nonsense, it was serving you better.

I don't have time to educate you about game history.

3rdmillhouse
1st Dec 2010, 03:13
What saddens me the most about this exclusive mission is that it taps directly into DX nostalgia as a main selling point. Save an old DX favourite! Buy the exclusive content now!

Really guys? Isn't that a bit low? A bit, dare I say, disrespectful?

It doesn't take anything away from your hard work of course. It's just that class completely went out of the window with this low blow.

Yeah, that's like jacking off during your grandma's funeral.

Pinky_Powers
1st Dec 2010, 03:14
So E.M. is... Cthullu?!

Possibly. We'll have to wait and see. ;)

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 03:15
If you're laughing it's nervously. Go back to your smiling emoticon nonsense, it was serving you better.

I don't have time to educate you about game history.

See? If you HAD any games in mind you could have just named them and we all could have gone and checked. Would have only taken you ten seconds. But you didn't. So you don't. But yeah, act smug then you'll seem like less of a troll. ;)

On the plus side, negativity from people like you isn't considered insulting to the EM team as nobody takes you seriously. So I don't think you need to worry too much about what Coyote was saying in the OP (there we go! Topic. Got back there in the end!)

fullhealth
1st Dec 2010, 03:16
Nice of you to turn a thread about the community into a PC vs console war. Class act :thumb:

Er, what?

It was one of many comments in my first post of this forum. I am merely responding to attempted arguements.

mentalkase
1st Dec 2010, 03:17
I've said this before.

http://img574.imageshack.us/img574/57/lara05.jpg

There is nothing wrong with the TR/CD engine. It is capable of great beauty, and in the hands of some pretty competent level designers and concept artists (the likes of which reside in great numbers it seems at EM from what we've seen so far) the game will probably end up looking better *stylistically, say* than most other projects out there.

I am very excited about the animated-esque look that EM is going for, it looks very polished and consistent. And it's maintaining that consistency and devotion to quality that makes a good game a great game. That's what I care about: well designed environments, convincing atmospheres and inspiring spaces.

I absolutely agree. I think interesting art direction and an engine that allows for good open level design is more important than technical whizbangery.

Rindill the Red
1st Dec 2010, 03:18
Dudes - the term "graphics" doesn't strictly mean "hey bro take a screenshot and see if it looks good"

Graphics encapulates, level size, FPS, dynamic lighting, character detail, frames of animation, minor details - all things that have to be hugely restricted (and have been) for the sake of the lesser power of consoles.

Just defending my very reasonable accusation.

I'm no graphics whore... as far as I'm concerned Deus Ex (original) has awesome graphics. So long as the graphics represent a cohesive whole and aren't horrid.

For example, I think Deus Ex had better graphics than Invisible War.

And Mario had better graphics than Crysis.

I'd take large open levels with reasonable load times over pretty graphics any day.

And if TR:U is any indication DX:HR is easily going to satisfy me visually.

fullhealth
1st Dec 2010, 03:22
See? If you HAD any games in mind you could have just named them and we all could have gone and checked. Would have only taken you ten seconds. But you didn't. So you don't. But yeah, act smug then you'll seem like less of a troll. ;)

On the plus side, negativity from people like you isn't considered insulting to the EM team as nobody takes you seriously. So I don't think you need to worry too much about what Coyote was saying in the OP (there we go! Topic. Got back there in the end!)

It's amazing that the mods actually let people like you continue to post. Good to see you took my advice with the smiling emoticons, though!

Like I said, I don't have time to educate you. And you don't think EM takes negatively seriously? Umm... do you realize what the thread you're posting in is about? Guess not.

I invite you to take this squabble to PM if you would like to continue it futher, as this will be my last reply to you in this thread.

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 03:28
And you don't think EM takes negatively seriously?

No they do. From people who know what they're talking about. Not from people who post nonsense like how Eidos only make "idiot games for idiot's". I do like that line.


I'd take large open levels with reasonable load times over pretty graphics any day.

Well exactly, and when you bear in mind most people will be limited by their system anyway, it makes the long load times not worth it! Invisible War was a great example of how not to do it. I have a reasonably good system and I was playing it a couple of weeks ago and wondering what was taking the loading screens so long! I mean, it must have a 'minimum load time' built in because that was ridiculous. How would an average computer have coped in 2004!? Boggles the mind.

Of all the lessons I hope (and am confident) EM have learned from, that's top of the list.

rambo73
1st Dec 2010, 03:37
yeah....its true!!!

Senka
1st Dec 2010, 03:38
Yeah trying to lure fans into paying for the extra content using nostalgia is pretty low. Almost as low as steam price gouges, so if this has a crappy price in Aus compared to US.........................

thedosbox
1st Dec 2010, 03:58
Er, what?

It was one of many comments in my first post of this forum. I am merely responding to attempted arguements.

No, you specifically stated your aim was:



Registered to let you know you ruined my day.

And yet you're still here after igniting a platform war.

Reminds me of all the people who said they would boycott modern warfare 2 (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/11/12/why-they-dont-take-boycotts-seriously/) :thumb:

fullhealth
1st Dec 2010, 04:01
No, you specifically stated your aim was:



And yet you're still here after igniting a platform war.

Reminds me of all the people who said they would boycott modern warfare 2 (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/11/12/why-they-dont-take-boycotts-seriously/) :thumb:

None of that relates to your accusation that I turned this thread into a console flame war.

THUMBS UP BRO YEAAAH GOOD SHUTDOWN.

thedosbox
1st Dec 2010, 04:03
None of that relates to your accusation that I turned this thread into a console flame war.

THUMBS UP BRO YEAAAH GOOD SHUTDOWN.

The subsequent direction of the thread, along with your responses, speak for themselves. Bro. :thumb:

TrickyVein
1st Dec 2010, 04:07
THUMBS UP BRO YEAAAH GOOD SHUTDOWN.

You were like:

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5217/85760802.jpg

And then you were:

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9973/84804508.jpg

Health isn't so full now, is it?

fullhealth
1st Dec 2010, 04:12
The subsequent direction of the thread, along with your responses, speak for themselves. Bro. :thumb:

They really, really don't.

I made a point, one of many. I defended that point. Quite the "console flame war" we've got going, right kids? :rolleyes: Feel free to stop drawing this out at any point.

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 04:17
Actually no, you made a point:


Made for console so nothing will require any skill or brain activity at all and the graphics will be 2005 standard

Reiterated that point (notice how all you do is define 'graphics' before asserting something about consoles in general but no evidence that the problem is evident in THIS game.)


Dudes - the term "graphics" doesn't strictly mean "hey bro take a screenshot and see if it looks good"

Graphics encapulates, level size, FPS, dynamic lighting, character detail, frames of animation, minor details - all things that have to be hugely restricted (and have been) for the sake of the lesser power of consoles

And then REFUSED to defend your point, presumably because you couldn't


I don't have time to educate you about game history.

thedosbox
1st Dec 2010, 04:20
http://xkcd.com/386/ :thumb:

Fox - I wouldn't bother responding any further. This "dude" wanted to share how his day was RUINED, ABSOLUTELY RUINED :group_hug:. He's done so, and I expect he'll disappear back into irrelevancy soon.

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 04:22
http://xkcd.com/386/ :thumb:

Fox - I wouldn't bother responding any further. This "dude" wanted to share how his day was RUINED, ABSOLUTELY RUINED. He's done so, and I expect he'll disappear back into irrelevancy soon.

I know... I suffer from the problem in the comic, I really do :lol: Developed bad habits on Final Fantasy forums!

Dragonknight
1st Dec 2010, 04:24
@Coyotegrey

You said "You don't like the information released today? That's okay! You're entitled to your opinion! Opinion away, and all that stuff! But using this as "proof" that we don't understand the essence of Deus Ex, and then making negative assumptions on the game's quality, isn't just disrespectful to the people here who've spent four years of their lives working very passionately on a labor of love, it's not how I expect the users of this forum to behave."

You said that making negative assumptions on the game's quality is disrespectful to those working on the game. With all due respect, so what? In my opinion, Eidos is showing disrespect to the Deus Ex fans by continuing to do things that give the impression that EM isn't listening to the fans. Back when Invisible Wars was being made, we fans posted our views on why we didn't like many of the things being done with IW. Guess what? We were almost completely ignored. A lot of fans left. Then later, EM comes forward and claims they are going to make a proper Deus Ex game. I don't know where it is because so far, this one isn't it.

A while back there were 10 (or 11? Let's say 10) things EM was doing to the game. There were many debates about why those things didn't belong, with most fans not liking those things. What happened? 9 of them are in the game. Once again, the fans are being ignored. Since then other things about the game have been mentioned, and EM continues to be ignoring the fans. You want us to be positive? Pay attention: BEING POSITIVE HASN'T DONE ANY GOOD.

EM is unhappy with the fans' attitude? What about the fans EM is insulting? If your developers are getting their feelings hurt, that's too bad. What about us? When people in your company ridicule fans and does their damndest to drive away the Deus Ex fans, do you actually expect love and happiness and that EM is God? Grow up, EM. You never really cared about the Deus Fans, and no words can prove it when your actions prove otherwise.

Shralla
1st Dec 2010, 04:27
I'm sorry, but there is literally no way for you to be "insulted" because of the design decisions in a video game. I don't care how attached you are to the franchise, you're just being butthurt beyond all belief, and sounding completely irrational because of it.

And also, you know what? Just because they don't listen the the microscopic minority who spends all their time whining incessantly on Internet forums doesn't mean they aren't listening to ANY fans.

WildcatPhoenix
1st Dec 2010, 04:27
@Coyotegrey

You said "You don't like the information released today? That's okay! You're entitled to your opinion! Opinion away, and all that stuff! But using this as "proof" that we don't understand the essence of Deus Ex, and then making negative assumptions on the game's quality, isn't just disrespectful to the people here who've spent four years of their lives working very passionately on a labor of love, it's not how I expect the users of this forum to behave."

You said that making negative assumptions on the game's quality is disrespectful to those working on the game. With all due respect, so what? In my opinion, Eidos is showing disrespect to the Deus Ex fans by continuing to do things that give the impression that EM isn't listening to the fans. Back when Invisible Wars was being made, we fans posted our views on why we didn't like many of the things being done with IW. Guess what? We were almost completely ignored. A lot of fans left. Then later, EM comes forward and claims they are going to make a proper Deus Ex game. I don't know where it is because so far, this one isn't it.

A while back there were 10 (or 11? Let's say 10) things EM was doing to the game. There were many debates about why those things didn't belong, with most fans not liking those things. What happened? 9 of them are in the game. Once again, the fans are being ignored. Since then other things about the game have been mentioned, and EM continues to be ignoring the fans. You want us to be positive? Pay attention: BEING POSITIVE HASN'T DONE ANY GOOD.

EM is unhappy with the fans' attitude? What about the fans EM is insulting? If your developers are getting their feelings hurt, that's too bad. What about us? When people in your company ridicule fans and does their damndest to drive away the Deus Ex fans, do you actually expect love and happiness and that EM is God? Grow up, EM. You never really cared about the Deus Fans, and no words can prove it when your actions prove otherwise.

*raps table, Parliament style* Hear hear.

AlexOfSpades
1st Dec 2010, 04:31
You were like:

*doom guy*

And then you were:

*not so well doom guy*

Health isn't so full now, is it?

Lmao, that was classic.

mentalkase
1st Dec 2010, 04:39
There are many layers within the design aesthetic of DXHR. The uniform gold and black colour scheme, a consistant artistic style based on a mathematical representation of renaissance ideas in the form of the constant geometric patterning within the clothing, levels - all over the place, a more literal representation of the renaissance in some the furnishings, and the importance placed on 'atmospheric' effects such as the way they combine reflections, fog, and the lighting.

Everyone mentions these things, but nobody ever seems to notice the obvious attempts to echo certain elements of the way DX1 looked in that mix. Look at the way computer terminals are represented in the laboratory level for example, they look almost retro in the way they're like a flat painted on texture, exactly the way DX1 did it. Or the way the background buildings in Hengsha appear to be a flat simple background and not the complex 3d models most modern games would use (although they may well be 3d). I think they look very much how background buildings look in DX1 in the NYC levels. There are deliberate visual callbacks to DX1 all over the place if you care to see them.

cartridge
1st Dec 2010, 04:39
Whoa! Did I miss something?

The new box art is cool, btw.

cartridge
1st Dec 2010, 04:44
Would have chosen something a little more ambiguous personally, but it works. It's what's inside that I care about most!

fullhealth
1st Dec 2010, 05:27
I know... I suffer from the problem in the comic, I really do :lol: Developed bad habits on Final Fantasy forums!

Hang on hang on. I have to break my previous statement to respond to this. You actually think you're right? Whoa. I thought you were just arguing for the sake of arguing as a lot of twits on this forum base their entire personality on. But you actually believe you're right and I'm wrong? Yeah, against my better judgment, this requires some input. All of your responses have been simple attempts to end the discussion so you can feel like you've "won" - I doubt there's any point trying to help you learn as no matter what I say, your Internet Honor is at stake. However, in kind, I also am not posting for your benefit, but for the benefit of those poor people that might actually think you have any clue what you're talking about

"If you CAN support your argument then I'm sure you can give me a nice long list of PC games that look better than DX3"

Refer to: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1531830&postcount=133

Once you've understood that (read it a few times, maybe listen to some music and close your eyes - even sleep on it if you need to) - Additionally, and this is important so stop trying to think up try-hard responses and instead read careful: This isn't about "DX3 looks worse than current PC games". The fact that you even think that tells me you are either a massive twit or you're, as I've said previously, an uneducated poster trying to "win" some points against people that are clearly more confident in their opinions than you. Probably due to an unconscious attempt to justify your continued interest in the hype of DX2.

What this is about, is potential. This is 2010. Games such as Crysis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3vO01xQ-DM), Cryostasis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob5sutivN6M), STALKER (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qxg9rK086SU), ARMA 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmdz-Ka1O4Q) HAVE BEEN OUT FOR YEARS.

The mere fact that Deus Ex 3, arguably one of the most heralded PC games of all time (regardless of later console ports), is being served up on a tiny plate labeled "limitations due to console" is reason enough to react negatively to it.

You say here:



Of all the lessons I hope (and am confident) EM have learned from, that's top of the list.

You actually think DX3 will load quickly and have expansive levels... without sacrificing anything? What has changed between now and Invisible War? The same limitations are present. The same amount of constant "we can remove this this and this to increase the frame rate" playtesting is present. In fact, EM have themselves already tried to downplay it!;


Will I be able to pick all pieces of junk and different stuff just like in DX1 and use them to distract enemies or do something else with it?

You'll be able to use different types of boxes to distract NPCs indeed. If you're referring to things like a pencil or a glass the answer is no. We have a very detailed and rich world to discover so we had to make some tradeoffs in terms of the scope of interactive objects in order to keep a smooth framerate.

Ignorance sure is bliss - but for someone that claims to know what they're talking about, can you really hide behind it for much longer?


*dusts hands*


Now, onto your next issue:

Previous games from lead-designer Jean-François Dugas

* Far Cry: Instincts - Evolution (2006), Ubisoft, Inc.
* Far Cry: Instincts - Predator (2006), Ubisoft, Inc.
* Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas (2006), Ubisoft, Inc.
* Far Cry: Instincts (2005), Ubisoft, Inc.
* Speed Challenge: Jacques Villeneuve's Racing Vision (2002), Ubi Soft Entertainment Software
* F1 Racing Championship (2000), Video System Co., Ltd.
* F1 Racing Simulation (1997), Ubi Soft Entertainment Software

A bunch of car games and a bunch of dumbed down console shooter sequels.

Idiot games for idiots.

Are we done?

Jerion
1st Dec 2010, 05:36
I have the opposite opinion. It looks like a new and very unique world, but it still has the feel of Deus Ex; the dark and gritty, the sinful void between the poor and ruch, where no middle-class exists, technology overlaying a very old society... Cyberpunk.

And that's just visually. You throw in the music and conspiracies, the characters and literary themes and I start to quiver under the strong Deus Ex vibrations. :)

Not the only one. Twenty minutes after sitting down with it last month, I was grinning like an idiot.

FuzzyPuffin
1st Dec 2010, 05:36
Wow, fullhealth pwnage. I like it. And I was not aware that the lead designer was responsible for such a crappy list games. This, coupled with the fact that the lead writer was responsible for the "meh" story of Homeworld 2, bad story of Myst III, and the promising beginning but awful last 3/4ths story of Myst IV gives me concern.

(That said, I've been decently pleased with what I've seen so far, more so than fullhealth. I think the regen health, takedowns, and orange outline on interactibles are dumb, but I'm loving the art style, and the meaningful choices looks intact. And the music is bloody awesome. There is still hope.)

Rindill the Red
1st Dec 2010, 05:37
Now, onto your next issue:

Previous games from lead-designer Jean-François Dugas

* Far Cry: Instincts - Evolution (2006), Ubisoft, Inc.
* Far Cry: Instincts - Predator (2006), Ubisoft, Inc.
* Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas (2006), Ubisoft, Inc.
* Far Cry: Instincts (2005), Ubisoft, Inc.
* Speed Challenge: Jacques Villeneuve's Racing Vision (2002), Ubi Soft Entertainment Software
* F1 Racing Championship (2000), Video System Co., Ltd.
* F1 Racing Simulation (1997), Ubi Soft Entertainment Software

A bunch of car games and a bunch of dumbed down console shooter sequels.

Idiot games for idiots.

Are we done?

I would just like to point out that David Anfossi worked on Splinter Cell (stealth game).

So I think it's telling that the development team has a diverse background (the better to design the game for multiple play-styles).

fullhealth
1st Dec 2010, 05:45
Wow, fullhealth pwnage. I like it. And I was not aware that the lead designer was responsible for such a crappy list games. This, coupled with the fact that the lead writer was responsible for the "meh" story of Homeworld 2, bad story of Myst III, and the promising beginning but awful last 3/4ths story of Myst IV gives me concern.

(That said, I've been decently pleased with what I've seen so far, more so than fullhealth. I think the regen health, takedowns, and orange outline on interactibles are dumb, but I'm loving the art style, and the meaningful choices looks intact. And the music is bloody awesome. There is still hope.)

I agree with you FuzzyPuffin - I think the art, choices and music give off a great vibe. But I mean... is it so wrong to want something SPECIAL from a Deus Ex game? I wanted something different, something to hold up against the tide of crappy shooters and d to the umbass dumbass gameplay that modern gaming has rammed down our throats since the success of Xbox360. Something inspirational. Something that could prove to younger generations and older ones alike that gaming can be more than what we have now - but instead... we get pre-made DLC and Automatic Door openers... we get treated like morons.

We get let down. Again.

I'm being melodramatic but it's really how I feel. I had so much hope in DX3. I'm just a gamer loser who loves games and losing yet another franchise to the tide saps me of so much.

Pinky_Powers
1st Dec 2010, 05:58
What has changed between now and Invisible War?

We're on a whole new generation of consoles for one... so quite a lot.

The Console is unquestionably limited. It's a set piece of hardware, and it's five years old now. But it has been pushed in recent years well beyond what anyone thought was possible. They are capable of much bigger games than the last generation.

Invisible War was the limitation of the original X-Box. Human Revolution will be the limitation of the 360. Philosophically, nothing has changed. Practically, however, this means a much bigger and better experience than we saw in 2003. This is the generation that's given us Oblivion and Fallout 3, Consoles can handle quite a lot of game.

mentalkase
1st Dec 2010, 06:04
We're on a whole new generation of consoles for one... so quite a lot.

The Console is unquestionably limited. It's a set piece of hardware, and it's five years old now. But it has been pushed in recent years well beyond what anyone thought was possible. They are capable of much bigger games than the last generation.

Invisible War was the limitation of the original X-Box. Human Revolution will be the limitation of the 360. Philosophically, nothing has changed. Practically, however, this means a much bigger and better experience than we saw in 2003. This is the generation that's given us Oblivion and Fallout 3, Consoles can handle quite a lot of game.

I'd just like to point out that original Xbox had Morrowind. It wasn't so much even a limitation of the consoles back then, but a limitation of the engine that DXIW and Thief: Deadly Shadows used. It was good for lighting and shadows, bad for big levels. I have no idea why, but Harvey Smith himself says in an interview that they mismanaged the engine.

Oh .. and PS2 had DX obviously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGIdYl2oN74

jkruse
1st Dec 2010, 06:06
No, you specifically stated your aim was:



And yet you're still here after igniting a platform war.

Reminds me of all the people who said they would boycott modern warfare 2 (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/11/12/why-they-dont-take-boycotts-seriously/) :thumb:

Just popped in to say I must be one of the minority that actually did boycott MW2. After playing about half of the campaign and a few rounds of multi on my friend's copy (360) I'm glad I did, thing was a piece of crap.

On topic, this news, or maybe it's more the lack of news, about preorder bonuses really feels like a slap in the face. I'm sure I have the same questions as everyone else so I won't reiterate, but the lack of clarity and cohesive information management has me slightly more concerned than pretty much anything else up to this point.

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 06:10
Whoa. I thought you were just arguing for the sake of arguing as a lot of twits on this forum base their entire personality on. But you actually believe you're right and I'm wrong?

Yes. Do you know why? because you didn't actually MAKE an argument, you just sat there whining about how the graphics would look hideously out of date because of the consoles. Seeing as you actually HAD some interesting stuff to say maybe it would have been better to just say it, rather than come off like a troll. I mean honestly, I ask you to back up your claim and you say "I don't have time" what am I supposed to think? So now you actually have, let's take a look at it.


What this is about, is potential. This is 2010. Games such as Crysis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3vO01xQ-DM), Cryostasis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob5sutivN6M), STALKER (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qxg9rK086SU), ARMA 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmdz-Ka1O4Q) HAVE BEEN OUT FOR YEARS.

You see you didn't make this clear before. What you SAID was "Consoles will make it look dated/rubbish", when what you MEANT was "DX3 will not look as good as it could, and this in itself is something to be derided even if the overall look is still very good". For future reference, you'll find people 'get' your points better if you actually express them rather than saying something dumb and inflammatory in the hope that your reader is psychic.

In regards to what you SAID, my points are still right. Console limitations stop you from getting a Crysis 2 or loads of intricate physics, but as long as you don't turn on the AA you can still get them looking very detailed, even on a relatively big game (see: MGS4). However in regards to what you MEANT (but didn't say, I feel obliged to keep pointing this out as you made such a big deal out of what a 'twit' I was) then you're right. Yes, presuming the same budget and development time, building a game solely for PC would allow more detail, especially in regards to complex calculations such as dynamic lighting and general things like poly count and texture res.


You actually think DX3 will load quickly and have expansive levels... without sacrificing anything?

No, you mistake my point on this one. If anything my point was I'd like them to sacrifice more if necessary. Nothing to do with PC Vs Consoles this, the lesson I want them to learn was that it is better to have big levels and quick load times than dynamic dust particles that glimmer in the sun. Or similar.


Previous games from lead-designer Jean-François Dugas

* Far Cry: Instincts - Evolution (2006), Ubisoft, Inc.
* Far Cry: Instincts - Predator (2006), Ubisoft, Inc.
* Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas (2006), Ubisoft, Inc.
* Far Cry: Instincts (2005), Ubisoft, Inc.
* Speed Challenge: Jacques Villeneuve's Racing Vision (2002), Ubi Soft Entertainment Software
* F1 Racing Championship (2000), Video System Co., Ltd.
* F1 Racing Simulation (1997), Ubi Soft Entertainment Software


Point taken in that regard, I had assumed Dugas had already been part of EM before DX3. Though he's not the only creative person in "the studio", remember that. I had presumed you were talking of Eidos when you said that, not a particular person who doesn't actually have a history with "the studio".

So there we go. I learned a little something, and perhaps you're not an utter troll after all. There's hope for the world yet. Just remember if you HAVE a valid point to make: make it. Don't just mention something partially relevant and then refuse to defend the point. I can only answer what's in front of me and then you insinuate that I'm an idiot because I (nor others who responded to you) could divine the hidden meaning you had yet to explain.


Automatic Door openers... we get treated like morons.

Incidentally, EM have clarified this one. It's a one use consumable, so will essentially function identically to a lockpick in the original. Although one door will probably always require only one ADU.


I wanted something different, something to hold up against the tide of crappy shooters

Have you seen the gameplay from the EG Expo? A hell of a lot of not shooting things, should be more up your street than the trailers if you haven't. An interesting detail you might also like to know is that a lot of the typical shooting/action you see can be completely avoided. Even a boss fight with a giant robot airlifted into the warehouse you occupy only happened because the player got spotted in the demo. Had the guards not seen him that entire epic battle wouldn't have happened. That sounds pretty different to the over-scripted nature of most other modern games, don't you agree?

Rindill the Red
1st Dec 2010, 06:12
We're on a whole new generation of consoles for one... so quite a lot.

The Console is unquestionably limited. It's a set piece of hardware, and it's five years old now. But it has been pushed in recent years well beyond what anyone thought was possible. They are capable of much bigger games than the last generation.

Invisible War was the limitation of the original X-Box. Human Revolution will be the limitation of the 360. Philosophically, nothing has changed. Practically, however, this means a much bigger and better experience than we saw in 2003. This is the generation that's given us Oblivion and Fallout 3, Consoles can handle quite a lot of game.

Oblivion is unimpressive... Fallout 3 is a little better but not by much. That's another reason I love consoles (even though I don't have any), developers just push and push and push the hardware to it's limits because they can't rely on forcing players to upgrade hardware every year or two. This leads to vastly more efficient engines that look really good. I like to pick an early console-cycle game and compare it to a late console-cycle game. Like compare Halo 1 to Halo 2. Or compare Oblivion to Mass Effect 2.

mentalkase
1st Dec 2010, 06:20
Oblivion is unimpressive... Fallout 3 is a little better but not by much. That's another reason I love consoles (even though I don't have any), developers just push and push and push the hardware to it's limits because they can't rely on forcing players to upgrade hardware every year or two. This leads to vastly more efficient engines that look really good. I like to pick an early console-cycle game and compare it to a late console-cycle game. Like compare Halo 1 to Halo 2. Or compare Oblivion to Mass Effect 2.

It's strange you say that Oblivion is unimpressive, because in that list of games it's Oblivion and Halo 1 that were graphically revolutionary. It's the first generation of a console that really push the envelope, then computers catch up quickly and start kicking their arse. It's true what you say though, the way some games push the capabilities of a console is quite impressive.

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 06:23
It's strange you say that Oblivion is unimpressive, because in that list of games it's Oblivion and Halo 1 that were graphically revolutionary. It's the first generation of a console that really push the envelope, then computers catch up quickly and start kicking their arse. It's true what you say though, the way some games push the capabilities of a console is quite impressive.

Revolutionary but poor by today's standards :) Fallout suffers quite badly, though that's not a console limitation but an engine one. The gamebryo engine is... urgh. I'm working on a mod in it at the moment and it's not a pleasant bit of kit! The only reason that's pushing consoles to the limit is poor optimization. The Unreal 3 engine on the other hand is an amazing piece of technology. Doesn't matter what platform you use it for, you can create some stunning stuff.

AlexOfSpades
1st Dec 2010, 06:24
Hang on hang on. I have to break my previous statement to respond to this. You actually think you're right? Whoa. I thought you were just arguing for the sake of arguing as a lot of twits on this forum base their entire personality on. But you actually believe you're right and I'm wrong? Yeah, against my better judgment, this requires some input. All of your responses have been simple attempts to end the discussion so you can feel like you've "won" - I doubt there's any point trying to help you learn as no matter what I say, your Internet Honor is at stake. However, in kind, I also am not posting for your benefit, but for the benefit of those poor people that might actually think you have any clue what you're talking about.



Apparently, you're making a text in the internet, at a late night. Therefore you're exactly the kind of person that bases his personality on the forum and wants to "keep your internet honor", otherwise you would be sleeping.

So your argument there goes against yourself in quite a shameful way, don't you think?




"If you CAN support your argument then I'm sure you can give me a nice long list of PC games that look better than DX3"

Refer to: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1531830&postcount=133

Once you've understood that (read it a few times, maybe listen to some music and close your eyes - even sleep on it if you need to) - Additionally, and this is important so stop trying to think up try-hard responses and instead read careful: This isn't about "DX3 looks worse than current PC games". The fact that you even think that tells me you are either a massive twit or you're, as I've said previously, an uneducated poster trying to "win" some points against people that are clearly more confident in their opinions than you. Probably due to an unconscious attempt to justify your continued interest in the hype of DX2.



I'm sure you can win a discussion without having to call anyone a "twit" or "uneducated". This, together with what i quoted above, could be classified as "personal attack", which is against the ToU and could ban your ass out of this place.

I dont have anything to do with this since i'm not a mod, but if i was Fox, i'd report you right away.




What this is about, is potential. This is 2010. Games such as Crysis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3vO01xQ-DM), Cryostasis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob5sutivN6M), STALKER (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qxg9rK086SU), ARMA 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmdz-Ka1O4Q) HAVE BEEN OUT FOR YEARS.

The mere fact that Deus Ex 3, arguably one of the most heralded PC games of all time (regardless of later console ports), is being served up on a tiny plate labeled "limitations due to console" is reason enough to react negatively to it.



I dont quite get your point. First you mention Crysis (which is a dumb game), then you criticize Dugas for making "dumb games".

And also, DXHR - PC Version is actually way better than the console. If you watched carefully all of the recent news, you'd know that. I wont quote and post here each feature, because i dont have the time to, but i'm sure you can find them for yourself.

The ones i can remember mention that the computer version will have better AI (said by EM themselves), grid-like inventory (which is friendly to PC users), damn, a lot of stuff. Just search it.

And if you're talking about the graphics, not the features, then you must be blind. Simple.

Actually, its even more obvious that the console version is more limited (which is the exact opposite of your point): The console screenshots have no anti-aliasing. Again, computer version is better.

Lastly, watch the gameplay videos. With the exception of the Eyefinity one, all of them were done in consoles.
And they present us with solid framerates and i barely noticed a loading screen. Its impossible, though, to check if the levels are wide enough or the animations are good.

Which also makes impossible for you to say that Deus Ex wasted its graphical potential, since all you can do is SUPPOSE that the graphics will be reduced because of the consoles.




You actually think DX3 will load quickly and have expansive levels... without sacrificing anything? What has changed between now and Invisible War? The same limitations are present.


Uh, no. Different engine, different mappers. Where are the "same limitations" ?




Ignorance sure is bliss - but for someone that claims to know what they're talking about, can you really hide behind it for much longer?


Your arrogance isnt taking you anywhere ; Just making the entire forum hate you. I'm sure that's not your best option.




Now, onto your next issue:

Previous games from lead-designer Jean-François Dugas

* Far Cry: Instincts - Evolution (2006), Ubisoft, Inc.
* Far Cry: Instincts - Predator (2006), Ubisoft, Inc.
* Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas (2006), Ubisoft, Inc.
* Far Cry: Instincts (2005), Ubisoft, Inc.
* Speed Challenge: Jacques Villeneuve's Racing Vision (2002), Ubi Soft Entertainment Software
* F1 Racing Championship (2000), Video System Co., Ltd.
* F1 Racing Simulation (1997), Ubi Soft Entertainment Software

A bunch of car games and a bunch of dumbed down console shooter sequels.



This is kinda funny, you know. First you mention "Crysis! These games have been there for yeeeears!", and now you say that Far Cry is an idiot game for idiots.

The funny part is that Crysis and Far Cry are extremely similar games (yes, i played both).

Contradiction? Confusion? You name it.

Also, this game could be Dugas chance of redeeming himself from the past bad games. Its just a matter of pessimism or optimism.


Are we done?

Yes, i believe we are done. You're a noob with 10 posts in the forum that barely joined and already made yourself embarassed.

I guess you should just crawl back to where the ***** you came from.

Unstoppable
1st Dec 2010, 06:29
Some of you need to look in yourself in the mirror and get a reality check. Community manager I think it's time to take out the ban hammer to those that have no respect for other members and the development team. Seems they are just here to instigate and bash hard working people or people that are excited about the game.

Lets make a few things clear.

1. Nobody here except someone that works at Eidos Montreal knows who had the final say on the pre order bonuses. For all you know it was up to Squaresoft since they now own Eidos. So instead of blaming Eidos Montreal for everything find out who is to blame and then talk to them about it.

2. To post a list of what a developer has worked on and then call the games idiots just goes to show you have no respect for anybody. Hiding behind a computer monitor and bashing a hard working person who is doing his best to make this a great game.

If anything all you have accomplished to show is that the person who worked on those games, worked on games that were actually finished, published, and released to the public. That in it of itself is quite an accomplishment. Good job Jean.

3. Finally I will be reporting trolls, personal attacks, and any post that is created in order to cause problems among forum members.

If you don't like the way the game is headed that's fine but that does not give you the right to spread lies and speculation about things you simply do not know.

Finally to the developers and staff I think you guys are doing a great job. I love the viral marketing website, the information about pre ordering, and the augmented edition. Please thank the developers and tell them that I am proud of what they have accomplished. I look forward to playing the game in March. Goodluck to them and I hope Thief 4 is headed in a great direction as well.

Brockxz
1st Dec 2010, 06:31
I will just refer to this post made by Ash: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1531663&postcount=81
I sign under every word he said because I don't see any need to repeat all that wall of text.

Also this:

I'm sorry, but there is literally no way for you to be "insulted" because of the design decisions in a video game. I don't care how attached you are to the franchise, you're just being butthurt beyond all belief, and sounding completely irrational because of it.
And also, you know what? Just because they don't listen the the microscopic minority who spends all their time whining incessantly on Internet forums doesn't mean they aren't listening to ANY fans.

Are you sure Deus Ex fanbase here or at all are minority? Because i can easily proof you that you even don 't know how many people actually follow every bit of information scrap here (and they are not registered users) and on other gaming sites/forums etc and they say a lot more harsh words about some EM decisions than we do here. For example, I and some other gaming enthusiasts have one of the largest Latvian gaming forum pages and you really don 't want to know what people say about the newest information about bonus preorder bonuses because than EM really will feel disrespected etc. I even already deleted 2 topics because there was already going a flame war between pessimists and optimists about Deus Ex game involving personal insults to each other and not just to EM..
We, here in Latvia, most likely won 't see the game bonuses at all and we will need to do what we do already for the last few years - we will import game from UK or other country to get at least something more than just a game.

Also i really hope we won't see the repeat of IW scenario and forums here when the game will finally comes out.

FuzzyPuffin
1st Dec 2010, 06:31
This is kinda funny, you know. First you mention "Crysis! These games have been there for yeeeears!", and now you say that Far Cry is an idiot game for idiots.

The funny part is that Crysis and Far Cry are extremely similar games (yes, i played both).

Contradiction? Confusion? You name it.

I guess you should just crawl back to where the ***** you came from.

It's not a contradiction. He was using Crysis (and the others) as an example of impressive graphics, not gameplay.

Pinky_Powers
1st Dec 2010, 06:38
Oblivion is unimpressive... Fallout 3 is a little better but not by much.

On the subject of scale and complexity, they are powerfully impressive titles. They just didn't make very good games at the end of the day. :lol:

mentalkase
1st Dec 2010, 06:39
On the subject of scale and complexity, they are powerfully impressive titles. They just didn't make very good games at the end of the day. :lol:

I like Fallout 3 :( I think it's a much better game than Oblivion. The Fallout purists hate its guts but that's mostly because they have an irrational set against Bethesda. That company does some things well, other things not so well. The things it doesn't do well ticks off leet rpg power gamer types.

AlexOfSpades
1st Dec 2010, 06:42
I like Fallout 3 :( I think it's a much better game than Oblivion. The Fallout purists hate its guts but that's mostly because they have an irrational set against Bethesda. That company does some things well, other things not so well. The things it doesn't do well ticks off leet rpg power gamer types.

Yea i'm with you.

And it shows us, once more ,that the consoles are able to create vast areas.

It just depends of the engine.

FuzzyPuffin
1st Dec 2010, 06:42
Finally to the developers and staff I think you guys are doing a great job. I love the viral marketing website, the information about pre ordering, and the augmented edition.

Sorry, but what preorder information? 95% of the *****ing today could have easily been avoided with some simple clarification by Eidos. When somebody has to make a "Clearing the confusion" thread and scavenge hunt for information from a French website, they've blown it.

TrickyVein
1st Dec 2010, 06:45
FuzzyPuffin, might I suggest you update your profile pick?

With an image of a fuzzy puffin? :cool:

If you do that, I may go back to the flaming emperor penguin.

Pinky_Powers
1st Dec 2010, 06:47
I like Fallout 3 :( I think it's a much better game than Oblivion. The Fallout purists hate its guts but that's mostly because they have an irrational set against Bethesda. That company does some things well, other things not so well. The things it doesn't do well ticks off leet rpg power gamer types.

I never played the original Fallouts, so I was basing my opinions on the game as I experienced it. And I've gone into good detail in the past on what I like and don't like about Bethesda games, but I don't feel this is a good time or place to repeat all that... even though this thread is wildly off its rails already. :)

FuzzyPuffin
1st Dec 2010, 06:52
FuzzyPuffin, might I suggest you update your profile pick?

With an image of a fuzzy puffin? :cool:

If you do that, I may go back to the flaming emperor penguin.

Done, now show your penguin self!

fullhealth
1st Dec 2010, 06:52
Stupidity - The Text Based Adventure

Uhh, wow. See, at least with that fox guy it was worth it. With you... I don't think you even have the capacity to understand how hard I could destroy you.

I'll respond to the only part I read though - I don't live in your time-zone. You see, we live on Earth. It's a big place. The Sun can't actually light it all up at once so one half is dark (night time) and one half is light (day time!).

I just... yeah. I'll leave it there.


We're on a whole new generation of consoles for one... so quite a lot.

The Console is unquestionably limited. It's a set piece of hardware, and it's five years old now. But it has been pushed in recent years well beyond what anyone thought was possible. They are capable of much bigger games than the last generation.

Invisible War was the limitation of the original X-Box. Human Revolution will be the limitation of the 360. Philosophically, nothing has changed. Practically, however, this means a much bigger and better experience than we saw in 2003. This is the generation that's given us Oblivion and Fallout 3, Consoles can handle quite a lot of game.

The point is, they are scaled by the same limitations. As you say, console hardware improved with the set set of consoles - though... so did the graphics. So with the graphics taking up just as much "power" (percentage wise) as Halo 1 did on Xbox 1, we're still at exactly the same place.

"Consoles can handle quite a lot of game"

Yeah but no matter how you cut it, it either:

a) looks like crap

or

b) has huge load times and zero interactivity

PC development, however, can make the game they want to make - without any sacrifices. So when you say "We're on a whole new generation of consoles for one... so quite a lot" - you're wrong. Nothing has changed.

Then again... Metal Gear Solid 4...

Either way, potential, PC, obvious - etc.

mentalkase
1st Dec 2010, 06:53
I never played the original Fallouts, so I was basing my opinions on the game as I experienced it. And I've gone into good detail in the past on what I like and don't like about Bethesda games, but I don't feel this is a good time or place to repeat all that... even though this thread is wildly off its rails already. :)

I've tried to play the original Fallouts and i'm ashamed to admit I found them too slow and well .. kinda .. hard. I should probably have my gamer card revoked for saying that. But yeah you're right .. this thread has wildly careened off the road into some thorny bushes and should be put put back on the path before it becomes a smoking wreck. Or something.

Rindill the Red
1st Dec 2010, 06:57
I've tried to play the original Fallouts and i'm ashamed to admit I found them too slow and well .. kinda .. hard. I should probably have my gamer card revoked for saying that. But yeah you're right .. this thread has wildly careened off the road into some thorny bushes and should be put put back on the path before it becomes a smoking wreck. Or something.

Nah, no gamer card revoked.

I'm an extremely patient gamer... but I too found Fallout's combat to be tedious.

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 07:01
b) has huge load times and zero interactivity

Hah! I was going to counter this but then I remembered the game I was going to reference (MGS4) had massive load times and a 50 minute install every Act. So maybe I wont lol.

TrickyVein
1st Dec 2010, 07:04
Nah, no gamer card revoked.

I'm an extremely patient gamer... but I too found Fallout's combat to be tedious.

By the upteenth time you miss with a 95% critical chance to hit from one hex away, you'll want to start throwing crap across the room.

There is no player skill in involved in FO1/2 combat. All you can hope to do is stack the deck progressively in your favor. There are probably many invisible die rolls that take place which aren't reported in HUD statistics. All this means is that lower level players can't actually do anything. Your best bet is to get some high DT armor early on and build up XP killing rats. It takes a looooooong time to get to a point at which you feel confident enough to actually initiate combat yourself. I have a love-hate relationship with it all.

AlexOfSpades
1st Dec 2010, 07:09
Uhh, wow. See, at least with that fox guy it was worth it. With you... I don't think you even have the capacity to understand how hard I could destroy you.

I'll respond to the only part I read though - I don't live in your time-zone. You see, we live on Earth. It's a big place. The Sun can't actually light it all up at once so one half is dark (night time) and one half is light (day time!).

I just... yeah. I'll leave it there.


That's not even one percent of the point of my post. Apparently, you're just unable to reply me with proper arguments.

Actually, you're not only unable to read what we posted, you're also unable to see all of the Eidos news and latest gameplay footages to actually have any solid point.

You're insisting that the game's graphical features are reduced, when any gameplay video shows the opposite - or shows nothing about it.

Then i think you're just unable to post anything without embarassing yourself or nit-picking 1% of one's post and ignoring the rest.

Unstoppable
1st Dec 2010, 07:09
Erm just so that we are clear the Invisible War engine was crippled because of poor decision by Harvey Smith. Him being project lead instead of Warren Spector meant the following.

1. The programmer hired to create the renderer created the engine instead. (They were trying to do 3d lights but instead the moron created an engine.)

2. To make matters worth the engine was chosen by Harvey and then they realized a year later you couldn't do large levels. Moron.

3. He was going through a divorce but still that's not really an excuse.


Eidos Montreal knows what they are doing. The engine they have chosen from Crystal Dynamics means they have people from CD working on the project and the engine is tailored specifically for Deus Ex: Human Revolution. It features large levels (just like Tomb Raider which has huge exploring levels and outdoor scenery).

Don't expect this to be another small level type game. I have not played the game but I don't see any reason why the game wouldn't have larger levels. The Xbox 360 and PS 3 are capable of such things.

I sure as hell don't expect any mid level loading like Invisible War and Thief 3. So have no worries in that regard the engine is much better and so is the development team.

mentalkase
1st Dec 2010, 07:16
Erm just so that we are clear the Invisible War engine was crippled because of poor decision by Harvey Smith. Him being project lead instead of Warren Spector meant the following.

1. The programmer hired to create the renderer created the engine instead. (They were trying to do 3d lights but instead the moron created an engine.)

2. To make matters worth the engine was chosen by Harvey and then they realized a year later you couldn't do large levels. Moron.

3. He was going through a divorce but still that's not really an excuse.


Eidos Montreal knows what they are doing. The engine they have chosen from Crystal Dynamics means they have people from CD working on the project and the engine is tailored specifically for Deus Ex: Human Revolution. It features large levels (just like Tomb Raider which has huge exploring levels and outdoor scenery).

Don't expect this to be another small level type game. I have not played the game but I don't see any reason why the game wouldn't have larger levels. The Xbox 360 and PS 3 are capable of such things.

I sure as hell don't expect any mid level loading like Invisible War and Thief 3. So have no worries in that regard the engine is much better and so is the development team.

Going by the year you joined this forum i'm gonna guess you know what you're talking about.

Pinky_Powers
1st Dec 2010, 07:20
PC development, however, can make the game they want to make - without any sacrifices.

lol. Tell that to the old PC developers. Before cross-platform was very common, studios had to always cater to the less powerful machines, and we got much the same limitations we have today with consoles. The only difference is, consoles are the principle platforms now, and they're five years old.

Also, your contention that the current generation of console is balanced in precisely the same was as the last set of machines seems unsupportable and baseless. Especially when I know its wrong from personal experience.
Yes, the games look phenomenally better, but they also have longer draw distances, more details, more map complexity, and the scenes you're exposed to are just... bigger... in every way.

So to clarify: yes, we are limited by consoles... of course we are. But we should still get a glorious Deus Ex game out of the hardware available today.
Invisible War was a failure of design and experience in developing for the X-Box. EM is made up by a whole new team who has lots of experience making titles for the 360. This may frighten you all the more, but in the real world, this is a strong point.

Unstoppable
1st Dec 2010, 07:25
After completing Invisible War I was so disappointed I spent over a year researching the internet and talking to people on the original development team to find out what the heck happened. It was then that I discovered it was largely Harvey Smith's fault. It just seems he is a great designer, but not the proper person for project lead.

His other game Blacksite: Area 51 bombed as well from Midway. He also worked on Gauntlet: Seven Sorrows and that game was not good to say the least. He deserves credit for what he designed in Deus Ex, it just seems he is not a leader. Sorry to bash ya Harvey but I'm just speaking from your last 2 games, I wonder if he even reads these forums.

Here is proof from Harvey himself, let him tell you why Invisible War bombed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGIdYl2oN74

"We ****ed up, the technology management, we had bad team chemistry, shipped to early, bad story"

Harvey Smith deserves tons of credits for admitting all his errors. These errors were noticed quickly by Eidos Montreal and don't expect them. :D

Invisible War estimated budget 20 million.
Human Revolution estimated budget 30 million.

mentalkase
1st Dec 2010, 07:28
After completing Invisible War I was so disappointed I spent over a year researching the internet and talking to people on the original development team to find out what the heck happened. It was then that I discovered it was largely Harvey Smith's fault. It just seems he is a great designer, but not the proper person for project lead.

His other game Blacksite: Area 51 bombed as well from Midway. He also worked on Gauntlet: Seven Sorrows and that game was not good to say the least. He deserves credit for what he designed in Deus Ex, it just seems he is not a leader. Sorry to bash ya Harvey but I'm just speaking from your last 2 games, I wonder if he even reads these forums.

Here is proof from Harvey himself, let him tell you why Invisible War bombed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGIdYl2oN74

"We ****ed up, the technology management, we had bad team chemistry, shipped to early, bad story"

Harvey Smith deserves tons of credits for admitting all his errors. These errors were noticed quickly by Eidos Montreal and don't expect them. :D

From what I know of Harvey Smith I think that he'll probably be instrumental in more really good games in the future. He does seem to have some vision and passion for what he does. I really wish Ion Storm were still around and they had a chance to correct the mistakes they made.

Brockxz
1st Dec 2010, 07:30
About consoles and PCs and limitations:


"As long as the current console generation exists and as long as we keep pushing the PC as well, the more difficult it will be to really get the benefit of both," Cevat Yerli, founder, CEO, and President of Crytek, told the latest issue of Edge, according to CVG. "PC is easily a generation ahead right now. With 360 and PS3, we believe the quality of the games beyond Crysis 2 and other CryEngine developments will be pretty much limited to what their creative expressions is, what the content is. You won't be able to squeeze more juice from these rocks."

Unstoppable
1st Dec 2010, 07:33
Perhaps if Human Revolution is successful Harvey will be able to join a future team. He would get into the offices at around 7 am while he worked on Deus Ex, a little earlier than other developers. Spector credits him for huge contributions to the original Deus Ex. Like redesigning the skill system which he changed from Spector and actually made the game better. (Spector himself says so)

It seems in the original Deus Ex you would be able to use a skill only if you had it. Harvey changed that :D.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTWvsGA77T4&feature=related

ZakKa89
1st Dec 2010, 07:53
Just woke up and laughing my ass off to some posts here. AI will be terrible? How the hell would you know? Some people are trolling or are just really, really stupid.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
1st Dec 2010, 08:06
Chill people. We just need some Omar love around here. :group_hug:

Unstoppable
1st Dec 2010, 08:13
The best thing you can do if someone posts as a troll is to report and ignore them. (Usually a troll has very few forum posts and what he or she posts is geared toward making people angry and starting fights).

Anyway I'm real happy about the game and won't let the trolls ruin that for me. Deus Ex 3 is coming naa naa!

rhalibus
1st Dec 2010, 08:23
Many of us have been following this forum for years; getting excited when something they liked was announced or confirmed and disappointed when they received information they didn't like. We're of all different ages and temperaments, and you just can't please everyone--including me.

Eidos Montreal is a collection of developers, coders, marketers, etc. working together to balance financial expectations with artistic vision. I'm actually amazed at how close they've been allowed to conform to many of the ideas of Deus Ex, at the same time being saddened by some of the design choices...But convincing the people who front the money that a large percentage of the game assets will not be seen on the first run-through is a small miracle in this age of flashy rail-shooters.

There will always be passionate gamers who will both criticize and extol DX:HR with great fervency, and none deserve to be banned or blacklisted for their passion; at the end of the day it's all just symbols on a monitor.

This forum is awesome, and one of the only sites I visit seven days a week. I wouldn't want it any different.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
1st Dec 2010, 08:24
Twenty minutes after sitting down with it last month, I was grinning like an idiot.

OMG. I seriously can't wait to wear that grin too.

anunnaki
1st Dec 2010, 08:27
I personally like just about everything i've seen about HR. They have changed things as far as the original Deus Ex goes, but I wasn't expecting an exact and improved replica to begin with. There are still alot of things i'd like to learn more about, but that of course wont be so until the game is in my hands. I don't mind the 3rd person too much "though 1st person take downs would have been grand" and I think I can get over regenerating health as long as it works in a respectable manner, but this pre-order deal is somewhat upsetting. I WILL get all of this content no matter what, but I think they went a little far adding so many things and putting them into two different packages. The only thing I disapproved of more was removing melee weapons. I don't think it will be so in my opinion, but I still just really really hope this doesn't wind up like Operation Flashpoint.....

Senka
1st Dec 2010, 08:38
Deus Ex wasn't perfect though. Points where invisible collision stops you from jumping over parts with the speed aug, poor AI etc. I'm willing to give HR a chance but I might wait for reviews / demo before buying, unless the starting steam price is under 60AUD - if it is, chances are it'll get marked up soon when the publishers realise Australians pay more for no reason. Happens allll the time.

anunnaki
1st Dec 2010, 09:01
Deus Ex wasn't perfect though. Points where invisible collision stops you from jumping over parts with the speed aug, poor AI etc. I'm willing to give HR a chance but I might wait for reviews / demo before buying, unless the starting steam price is under 60AUD - if it is, chances are it'll get marked up soon when the publishers realise Australians pay more for no reason. Happens allll the time.

Exactly, it wasn't perfect. And considering it is such an old game there's really no other choice but to change some things. Some people might not like the changes made but to me they seem fitting for the most part. The thing i'm most worried about them changing is the overall style and feel of the game as well as the story and the way you as the main character effect and determine the outcome of the story. The thing that made Deus Ex so great to me was the freedom in both environment and actual game play, and from what I can tell they worked hard to keep and improve upon that in HR. With operation flashpoint they took everything that made the original so great and completely changed, downgraded or flat out removed it all while trying to tell people they did just the opposite, luckily I don't recall seeing so much info and footage showing these things like HR is doing so I wasn't surprised when it bombed. I think these guys are doing a good job not only on the game but on showing people the game before it's released so we have a decent idea of what to expect without giving away too much. A 25 or so minute demo which covered the four pillars, screens, a question forum, and a load of trailers. All of these things show plenty of info on the game and it's impressive in my eyes, as well as the game itself. All I ask for now is a demo in HD quality.

Red
1st Dec 2010, 11:01
Personal plea? So this one comes from you and not the company in general as their stance (therefore they don't give a fu*k)? You are a swell guy an' all, but you know...

Heh. Will continue watching the drama.

lithos
1st Dec 2010, 11:06
I think Kyle would do well to remember that the sale of Human Revolution will not be a one-way street; it's not like they're releasing it for free.

It's not nice nor financially prudent to be condescending to your customer base, in short.

Spyhopping
1st Dec 2010, 13:10
I don't feel strongly enough about this to make much of a comment, but Kyle is making quite a plain and valid point. The emotional attachment to this game can really negate the use of... well, logic and reason. We are often a bunch of rabid vulture/hyena hybrids, but it is still true that there has been coldness from EM. Things are warming up now though, I'm enjoying the start of some very pro viral marketing, and we have some active personal feedback from Kyle who is doing a good job at "keeping it classy" in the face of negativity and criticism.

As usual there are some wonderful, well thought out responses here, and the obligatory couple of embarrassingly dim ones too. I just hope EM keep an eye out for the constructive ones, and ignore the rest.

puzl
1st Dec 2010, 13:28
The best part is Kyle wasn't here around 2 years ago when there wasn't a single positive thread in this whole forum :lol:

Really though (and I said this in a previous thread only a few days or so ago) this forum has just been flooded with a very vocal minority of DX hardcore fans, who constantly bombard threads with negativism and doubt the developers every step of the way... often being quite rude and pompous in the process. We all want the game to be the best it can be and nobody is going to agree with design decisions 100% of the time, but for many users here, spending nearly 3 years of your life posting daily on a forum dedicated to a game you constantly doubt and dismiss is just not healthy behaviour. In fact, it's very, very sad.

Either wait for the game to be released and then flood the forum with the obligatory "I TOLD YOU SO!!!!!" posts, or just move on. As I said before, Eidos are making their game, not your game.

In fact, it is only a very recent process that developers have ANY communication with their fanbase in the first place. You certainly didn't get fans trying to dictate the development of Legend of Mana, Chrono Trigger, Super Mario World or any of the other classic SNES games of past and it didn't do them any harm.

ZakKa89
1st Dec 2010, 13:38
Well said puzl

I think some people dont understand the point of this forum. They think devs must listen to them and make the game the way they tell them to. Well that's not the way it works.

SageSavage
1st Dec 2010, 13:40
just move on.
...can't. :(

Gaunt88
1st Dec 2010, 13:44
Uhh, wow. See, at least with that fox guy it was worth it. With you... I don't think you even have the capacity to understand how hard I could destroy you.

Is this guy for real? Can someone really be this arrogant and just plain d*ck-ish in a discussion about videogames?

No, you know what, don't answer that. My faith in humanity is already low enough.

Still, on the off chance that fullhealth isn't a massive troll, currently sitting back and lauging his ass off at how he's managed to get us to take him seriously, he needs to learn that arrogance doesn't do anyone any favours. Fullhealth may have good points, but his attitude predisposes me to dissagree with them - I don't like the way he treats the people he's arguing with, so I want to side with the other guy.

... and if he is a massive troll, I just gave him another post's worth of attention... great.

@ All the complaining: I have to say that I couldn't be happier with DX:HR, because I play some games for the story, atmosphere and world/universe. Deus Ex is one of them. Graphics and gameplay are secondary for me, I don't care if it's different from the original, or not on-par with the prettiest games on the market. So long as it's entertaining and challenging and not completely broken, I'll enjoy it - so long as the plot, the worldbuilding, the writing and the voiceacting is up to scratch.

From the (admitedly) little we've seen, I have no worries on this score. I know a lot of people here think differently, and that's cool. This is just the way I roll, I'm not trying to convert anyone.


@ The actual topic:

I think that, as people have said, the problem stems from the fact EM is relatively small and new. Coyotegrey is doing the job that other companies (Like, say, Bungie or Valve, the two pinnacles of community management in my eyes) have whole departments for, and for that he has my sympathy and respect.

Spyhopping
1st Dec 2010, 13:47
Well said puzl

I think some people dont understand the point of this forum. They think devs must listen to them and make the game the way they tell them to. Well that's not the way it works.


You're thinking of a minority. Generally speaking, people don't want to tell them how to make the game. They just believe that this place should be an environment to provide the devs with feedback on their work, and that there is little evidence that the feedback has been taken to heart.

Then everyone gets fiery and over enthusiastic.

Ulysses
1st Dec 2010, 14:02
Ah, the pleasant whining of another CM.

Brockxz
1st Dec 2010, 14:09
Well said puzl

I think some people dont understand the point of this forum. They think devs must listen to them and make the game the way they tell them to. Well that's not the way it works.

emm then what the point of this forum before game has been shipped to stores? To talk about what? I understand that noone wants to hear that they are doing something wrong, that they don't know ***** about something etc but well that's the point of this forum is, to gather the information and to discuss it here until we get the game. It's their choice to listen to us or not. If they don 't want us to discuss the development process and didn't want to hear our disagreement with some decisions they make and even some harsh words about that then there was no point to open this forum for us this early.

All i can say after all this: Это Интернет, детка. Здесь могут послать на хуй
Use google to translate to your language this text. It's in Russian.

lithos
1st Dec 2010, 14:20
They're charging money for the game, right?

JCpies
1st Dec 2010, 14:26
That's terror.

Kvltism
1st Dec 2010, 14:40
Ha, it's taken a lot of time to sift through all the content this ****storm has generated. I must say that posts from the likes of WildcatPhoenix and Ashpolt (especially the epic read on page 4) summed up how I, and a fair few of my friends that aren't registered forum members, feel. DX fans really do seem like nothing more than a reliable $60US, maybe more to unlock the whizzbang release-day extras.

Having lurked this forum for nearly two years prior to registering, it has always been apparent that the CM (Rene, then Kyle) would be facing an uphill struggle. The line of communication from the development team ---> the fanbase has been laughable at best. Even some of the more optimistic members of this community will concede that point. Leaving the CM as the forum's resident scapegoat, unable to reveal much and representing the company's only visible presence on the forum, is shameful.

Jerion's visit to EM presented a fantastic opportunity for the situation to be remedied, and for a little while I thought things may be set to improve. Honestly, this forum is pointless if Eidos Montreal aren't going to actively participate in the community - members are essentially thrashing out the issues in a vacuum. As I have said before, this miscommunication is only going to fuel speculation about the product, for better or worse.

Deus Ex: Human Revolution promises to be a really good product. I don't doubt that. But my friends and I have reservations about ponying up $100AU and rewarding Eidos Montreal when they have treated fans with contempt. It would feel like tacit approval of their lackluster attitude toward the franchise's fanbase.

puzl
1st Dec 2010, 14:45
well that's the point of this forum is, to gather the information and to discuss it here until we get the game. It's their choice to listen to us or not.

Of course. Unfortunately a very vocal minority seem to think that Eidos must listen to their every word and change their game according to what they say. There is a big difference between suggesting improvements and calling the development team idiots because they ignore them.

And yes, we are paying for this game, so vote with your wallet when the time comes. The best way to make a developer/publisher listen to the community is to cut off their revenue afterall. Whining on this forum, which has proven time and time again not to wield the desired results, is ultimately fruitless.

puzl
1st Dec 2010, 14:54
Oh and I concede that having a CM in the first place means that Eidos obviously does want community input... or at least some line of relationship between the studio and the fans, even if it is only on a marketing level. In that respect, the CMs have done a very poor job... sorry Kyle, but it's true! In fact, it's probably not even Kyles fault and I bet he has a very difficult time getting information released from the actual developers.

Thats why I often feel this whole forum IS quite useless. The developers have seemingly made the project very closed and shielded from community interference, yet they still have a forum and community guy. It just makes very little sense and as I say, my main complaint with Eidos and this project in general is that from a community/marketing perspective, they really aren't very good at all. It's quite contradtictory.

It still doesn't excuse the very rude behaviour we often see here though. Frustration is one thing, but being an arrogant pr!ck is something else entirely.

WildcatPhoenix
1st Dec 2010, 14:54
Of course. Unfortunately a very vocal minority seem to think that Eidos must listen to their every word and change their game according to what they say. There is a big difference between suggesting improvements and calling the development team idiots because they ignore them.

And yes, we are paying for this game, so vote with your wallet when the time comes. The best way to make a developer/publisher listen to the community is to cut off their revenue afterall. Whining on this forum, which has proven time and time again not to wield the desired results, is ultimately fruitless.

So, if we disagree or disapprove of decisions by Eidos Montreal, we're a "very vocal minority" that should be ignored and ridiculed?

Conversely if we agree that Eidos Montreal has never made a mistake, they have treated their fanbase (not just this forum, but fans of Deus Ex...of whom there are many) wonderfully, they have effectively implemented a coherent marketing strategy, then we should be assumed to speak for the majority like you, eh puzl?

Nice to know you've got such an inside line to the opinions of those masses of people who are excited about pre-order exclusives or have no problems with EM's inability to communicate. For a second there, I thought Eidos Montreal had just caused a massive ****storm yesterday that resulted in multiple (clumsy) attempts to clarify and an entire thread from the CM begging us to "let us explain" and "don't be mean."

Glad to see I was wrong about that.

Kvltism
1st Dec 2010, 15:02
Oh and I concede that having a CM in the first place means that Eidos obviously does want community input... or at least some line of relationship between the studio and the fans, even if it is only on a marketing level. In that respect, the CMs we have had have done a very poor job in this respect... sorry Kyle, but it's true!

I disagree with that assessment. The CM can only say what someone higher up the pecking order allows him/her to say. Kyle's hamstrung. I'm sure there would be a lot less resentment and frustration if these people allowed Kyle to engage the community with a little more candour.

Don't you remember how it was with Rene? "I'll be able to reveal some new information soon." Too bad the goalposts kept getting moved, as he was made to cop a lot of (undeserved) flak from the community.

ZakKa89
1st Dec 2010, 15:03
emm then what the point of this forum before game has been shipped to stores? To talk about what? I understand that noone wants to hear that they are doing something wrong, that they don't know ***** about something etc but well that's the point of this forum is, to gather the information and to discuss it here until we get the game. It's their choice to listen to us or not. If they don 't want us to discuss the development process and didn't want to hear our disagreement with some decisions they make and even some harsh words about that then there was no point to open this forum for us this early.

All i can say after all this: Это Интернет, детка. Здесь могут послать на хуй
Use google to translate to your language this text. It's in Russian.

Lol it's a discussion forum that means you can express your opnion but doesn't mean the developers should make the game the way you like it. That's what I was saying. I'm not saying you can't express your concerns, big difference.

Oh and I am too lazy to translate that.

puzl
1st Dec 2010, 15:04
So, if we disagree or disapprove of decisions by Eidos Montreal, we're a "very vocal minority" that should be ignored and ridiculed?

Nope, not at all. But Eidos have made it abudantly clear they are ignoring EVERYONE from this forum. They are making their game. Noone at this forum is a special little snowflake, nor does anyone have a direct line to the developers, who simply must do exactly what they ask for.

puzl
1st Dec 2010, 15:05
I disagree with that assessment. The CM can only say what someone higher up the pecking order allows him/her to say. Kyle's hamstrung. I'm sure there would be a lot less resentment and frustration if these people allowed Kyle to engage the community with a little more candour.

Don't you remember how it was with Rene? "I'll be able to reveal some new information soon." Too bad the goalposts kept getting moved, as he was made to cop a lot of (undeserved) flak from the community.

Yeah, I added a little line to the end of that sentence, just before you posted a reply. I agree.

puzl
1st Dec 2010, 15:07
Lol it's a discussion forum that means you can express your opnion but doesn't mean you the developers should make the game you like it. That's what I was saying. I'm not saying you can't express your concerns, big difference.


Amen, brother. Glad to see someone gets it.

lithos
1st Dec 2010, 15:20
What's even more surprising is how an organisation so bent on controlling the message is always one step behind.

Well, it's a little too early for Eidos to start bribing Gamespot again.

And since the game's not due to be released for a while, no point in hiring another PR firm to get reviewers to delay their any reviews less than a 8/10 for a month to delay bad publicity.

WildcatPhoenix
1st Dec 2010, 15:28
Amen, brother. Glad to see someone gets it.

What I "get" is the money in my wallet, which remains in my possession and not Eidos' if they refuse to make a product that interests me.

No, dangling a little nostalgia carrot in front of my face ("Hey, pre-order this game and you will get an exclusive cameo appearance from an original Deus Ex character!") will not persuade me to give you my $60. Neither will pandering to every popular FPS trend or laughing at my opinions.

This whole concept of "they are making their game and there is nothing you can do to change it" is unacceptable. Eidos will survive without my $60, but I will certainly voice my displeasure with their behavior and decisions to as many people as possible, on this forum and outside of it, as is my right as the customer. And I don't feel like I should be forced to defend that right on this forum ad nauseum. :hmm:

puzl
1st Dec 2010, 15:33
What I "get" is the money in my wallet, which remains in my possession and not Eidos' if they refuse to make a product that interests me.

No, dangling a little nostalgia carrot in front of my face ("Hey, pre-order this game and you will get an exclusive cameo appearance from an original Deus Ex character!") will not persuade me to give you my $60. Neither will pandering to every popular FPS trend or laughing at my opinions.

This whole concept of "they are making their game and there is nothing you can do to change it" is unacceptable. Eidos will survive without my $60, but I will certainly voice my displeasure with their behavior and decisions to as many people as possible, on this forum and outside of it, as is my right as the customer. And I don't feel like I should be forced to defend that right on this forum ad nauseum. :hmm:

Absolutely and I agree 100%. Depriving a publisher of your hard earned cash because you don't like something is the only effective means of making them change. Whining on a forum does not, sadly.

And indeed, I said just as much in a previous post in this very thread.

handgriffsorgfaeltig
1st Dec 2010, 15:45
... Depriving a publisher of your hard earned cash because you don't like something is the only effective means of making them change. Whining on a forum does not, sadly...

...

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/3944/50239370.jpg

lithos
1st Dec 2010, 15:49
To me, though, the cameo appearance of a character from the original game as a marketing gimmick shows just how much EM are reliant on the creativity and work of others to sell this game.

Besides, it's only the PC users who really have to pay for the game.

Rindill the Red
1st Dec 2010, 15:50
Deus Ex wasn't perfect though. Points where invisible collision stops you from jumping over parts with the speed aug, poor AI etc. I'm willing to give HR a chance but I might wait for reviews / demo before buying, unless the starting steam price is under 60AUD - if it is, chances are it'll get marked up soon when the publishers realise Australians pay more for no reason. Happens allll the time.

Deus Ex was perfect.

The AI was damn near perfect for the game.

They had to stop you from jumping over parts with the speed aug to keep levels contained (it's not GTA after all).

SageSavage
1st Dec 2010, 15:51
@handgriff sorgfältig: :lmao:

Happy
1st Dec 2010, 15:57
Dear Edios,

I hear what you say and am not immune to your plea.

Going forward, please let the fans that you love know about game critical information prior to us finding out about it on the web - I feel like a jilted wife who has only just discovered her husband has been cheating with her best frined for 10 years.

If you would like more positive engagement - then please engage us. But unfortunately you'll always have negative people no matter how you act or what you say - I'll share with you what someone once told me.

"It's the Internet - get used to it." anon

Rindill the Red
1st Dec 2010, 15:58
...

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/3944/50239370.jpg

EM sees the community for what it is. A single angry ant-hill, unrepresentative of the wider public.

Why should they care?

The ball is really in our court.

What do we, as a community, want to be?

Do we want to be a community of trolling and *****ing and illogical arguments.

Or do we want to add something meaningful to our lives and the lives of others.

We want Eidos Montreal's attention? Then we need to do something noteworthy to gain attention.

People come on these forums, feeling that simply their presence here, or their love of Deus Ex immediately entitles them to help dictate the direction the series goes.

Well, your viewpoint is one of many, and only a child thinks that his is the only one.

So, what I think Kyle is saying is, if our community wants to interact with DX:HR and the dev team in any meaningful way, the best way to do that is to make stuff happen that will make them see a reason to or want to interact with us. And the best way to do that is through some positive additive endeavor.

Happy
1st Dec 2010, 15:59
Give me a break, Alex.

Kyle, I have nothing but respect for you and the hard work you've done trying to gather as much information for us as possible (and I've said so on these boards numerous times). You say all the right things, you seem to more-or-less enjoy your job, and you deliver on your commitments. This is what it takes to earn respect, in any line of thinking.

Your company has not earned this respect. I've read all these "labor of love" comments before. I've seen the claims of how you are all such huge Deus Ex fans. And while this may be true, I don't think your alleged love of the franchise has made one ounce of difference when it comes to developers standing up to the business end of the company.

This latest backlash over the obnoxious and greed-driven practice of pre-order exclusives is just another in a looooong line of protests from this community which have been utterly, completely ignored. Let me make it clear as possible: I don't care how much "love" you or your colleagues put into this game. I DON'T LIKE THE DECISIONS YOU'VE MADE. And many others here do not like these decisions either. We have made our opinions loud and clear, and basically been told to shove off by the development team.

And we're pissed off by it. It really is as simple as that.

+rep

WildcatPhoenix
1st Dec 2010, 16:32
We want Eidos Montreal's attention? Then we need to do something noteworthy to gain attention.

People come on these forums, feeling that simply their presence here, or their love of Deus Ex immediately entitles them to help dictate the direction the series goes.

Well, your viewpoint is one of many, and only a child thinks that his is the only one.

So, what I think Kyle is saying is, if our community wants to interact with DX:HR and the dev team in any meaningful way, the best way to do that is to make stuff happen that will make them see a reason to or want to interact with us. And the best way to do that is through some positive additive endeavor.

And what type of, to quote, "positive additive endeavor" are you suggesting, Rindill?

I disagree vehemently that we have to somehow earn the attention or respect of this studio. To hell with that! We are the customers, they are the ones who want our money. The only thing we owe them is simple civility, which in truth should be extended to every human being. Other than that, we don't owe them jack sh.it.

I'm not about to go recruit more people to this forum and act as an unpaid marketing TOOL just so Eidos will listen to my complaints. Not a chance in hell.

Kodaemon
1st Dec 2010, 16:38
I disagree vehemently that we have to somehow earn the attention or respect of this studio. To hell with that! We are the customers, they are the ones who want our money. The only thing we owe them is simple civility, which in truth should be extended to every human being.

Amen.

InGroove2
1st Dec 2010, 16:43
You don't like the information released today? That's okay! You're entitled to your opinion! Opinion away, and all that stuff! But using this as "proof" that we don't understand the essence of Deus Ex, and then making negative assumptions on the game's quality, isn't just disrespectful to the people here who've spent four years of their lives working very passionately on a labor of love, it's not how I expect the users of this forum to behave.

....

Thank you, everyone.

i definitely agree with this.

i think the most obvious thing to point out is... most of the best games were developed in times when the internet was not nearly as saturated with opinions. Times when people didn't think their opinion necessarily mattered. Times when expertise had respect, though NOT unconditional. The problem with the development of this game is the audience.

reading through the complaints on this board is like reading the diary of a mental patient. There is absolutely no coherent message. The vast marjority of incessant complainers blast EM for not fully understanding every subtelty and nuance of the very refined and pedantic opinions of hard core DX fans. They want EM to see the original DX with the same measurements of strengths and flaws that they've been carrying around for years yet fail to avail them of their OWN opinion of what THEY think are the flaws and strengths of the game.

Art has only suffered from the internet and its intrusion into everything. from "comment" sections on youtube and news articles to forums where fans of something attempt to influence the production of MORE from their favorite IP
by sitting on their asses...


And what type of, to quote, "positive additive endeavor" are you suggesting, Rindill?

I disagree vehemently that we have to somehow earn the attention or respect of this studio. To hell with that! We are the customers, they are the ones who want our money. The only thing we owe them is simple civility, which in truth should be extended to every human being. Other than that, we don't owe them jack sh.it.

I'm not about to go recruit more people to this forum and act as an unpaid marketing TOOL just so Eidos will listen to my complaints. Not a chance in hell.


they MAY be the ones who want our money but we are also the ones who WANT more DX-like gameplay. this forum stands there with arms folded, tapping a foot saying "if you want our money, make a good game, but not just a good game a good DX game, not just a good DX game but a good DX game that respects these certain spects of DX and improves on the weaknesses... but not just that but these specific strengths and weaknesses and not just those but also...."

it's endless. they're not begging for our money. they want us to buy the game and like it... but that's only mild percentage of the things they "want" and/or "need".

what's hard to keep in mind here is that for the most part it's the modern audience who puts artists and game companies alike in the position of having to be both artistically viable and commerically successful.

SageSavage
1st Dec 2010, 17:03
Or do we want to add something meaningful to our lives and the lives of others.
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4695/arrowthruhead2.jpg

handgriffsorgfaeltig
1st Dec 2010, 17:06
...
Dont get me wrong, i have my opinions and complaints about what i see. but they're only mine. anyone who is "PISSED" at EM has a right to be pissed, but is completely out of their mind if they feel their anger should be rectified by EM....


nahh..is it really so easy...at some point somebody should tell whats going on wrong...the basic or casual consumer out on the street will buy or just go further without telling anything, their you have only feedback through sales figures...and if the product failes, comes the question: why had nobody told us???...it's allways a difficult communication between customer and producer, especially with that amount of emotions in place...

puzl
1st Dec 2010, 17:11
nahh..is it really so easy...at some point somebody should tell whats going on wrong...the basic or casual consumer out on the street will buy or just go further without telling anything, their you have only feedback through sales figures...and if the product failes, comes the question: why had nobody told us???...it's allways a difficult communication between customer and producer, especially with that amount of emotions in place...

...

Ashpolt
1st Dec 2010, 17:24
Watch as this is the last post on the page and gets ignored as soon as page 11 flicks over...

To all those who are criticising the "dissenters" on here on the basis that we can't expect to dictate the direction of this game: please stop. I agree with you! The problem is, you're attacking a straw man, because that's not what the dissenters are saying in the first place. (OK, maybe one or two: but if I scoured the forums for long enough I'm sure I could find someone who thinks Eidos Montreal are all secretly lizards releasing a game that will brainwash with placating messages, enabling them to bend us to their will - so let's not take one or two people as indicative of a whole group, hey?) Sure, I would absolutely freaking love it if Eidos Montreal turned around tomorrow and went "OK, we've heard your complaints, and so we've implemented a toggle to allow you to turn off third person." Seriously, I'd love it. But that's not what this is about.

What this is about is treating your fanbase with respect. The latest example is, of course, cutting up the game and then forcing us to either pre-order or spend extra in order to get the full game - if it was just weapons, I doubt they'd have seen such a backlash, but to cut out a whole mission? Making it worse is the fact that they've cut out a mission that will specifically appeal to long-term Deus Ex fans: it's essentially saying "Big fan of the series? Then pay more than everybody else or commit to buying it on day one!" This isn't even the biggest issue though, it's just the latest one. The biggest issue is, and always has been, communication - or rather, the almost total lack of it. Kyle's been doing what he can - and as I said in my last post, for what it's worth I think Kyle is doing a great job within the excessive limitations placed on him - but the fact is he's not even given the freedom to answer simple questions. Sure, we've had answers to a couple of our questions, but have you seen how many questions have gone unanswered in the questions thread? Some of them would be spoilers, sure, but a lot of them are ridiculously simple - "Will the PC version use the mouse to scroll over and select items like it should?", "Are there any unskippable videos / cutscenes?", "Are there any FMV sequences, or are all cutscenes handled in-engine?"* - or purely gameplay based - for instance, a big one, "How does the regenerating health work exactly?" Why are these questions not being answered? I think it's safe to say that it will not spoil anyone's enjoyment of the game if they know ahead of time whether there will be unskippable cutscenes in the game. Just knowing simple things like this, getting answers to simple questions, would go a lot of way towards reassuring people.

*This one has, technically, been answered - but a long time ago, and recent information seems to contradict that answer, so clarification is needed.

And then there's the Big Questions - I touched on regenerating health above, but the other obvious one is third person. No-one expects these things to change at this late stage of the game (though dear God I would love it if they did) but if we could at least get a genuine, honest, non PR-speak answer to why these features were implemented, and why they were decided to be the right decision for this game - and those answers directed to the straight to the community that's questioning them, not to a magazine or website that we can then happen to stumble across - it'd help. Chances are still people will stick to their opinions - I honestly don't think anything EM say could convince me that third person is a good decision for a Deus Ex game - but at least we'd know that these decisions have been made for good reason, and not just because they're popular mechanics nowadays and will (apparently, theoretically) help sell this game to the Gears of War crowd. These kind of things could - and really should - have been addressed over two years ago when they were first announced. By leaving us in the dark, they've allowed the dislike about these mechanics to fester on here for over two years - and you can all see the result.

Really, the communication throughout has been piss-poor, and that's the crux of the issue - not dictating to EM the direction they take the franchise, just knowing that they acknowledge the fact that the community dislikes certain decisions, and giving us information on why they have chosen to overlook that dislike, and why these elements won't negatively affect the game for those of us who want a game in the vein of Deus Ex, rather than just "a good game" generically. EM have told us time and time and time again that they listen to their fans, but they have never once given us reason to believe this is actually true.

And as for the "vocal minority" argument: give it a break, that argument has more holes than Swiss cheese. Did you go on Rock Paper Scissors yesterday? Did you read the comments? Have you read other gaming forums? Until you can give proof that the majority of people are not only happy with the elements that are controversial on here, but would actively be put off the game if those elements were made optional, then you're making exactly the same assumption (that your view is the majority view) that you're accusing us of making.

SquidPirate
1st Dec 2010, 17:27
You want a positive community? You shouldn't have broken our hearts by again ruining one of our favorite series. So much hype. So much attention. So much hope - for this. Here's another very delayed "knee jerk" reaction for you.

Health Regen
Compass and waypoints
Highlighted everything
Prequel
Third Person
Retarded AI
Idiotic trailers
Developed by some studio that has only worked on idiot games for idiots
"the four pillars of gameplay"
Moronic dialogue
Cover system for dopes
Made for console so nothing will require any skill or brain activity at all and the graphics will be 2005 standard
Retarded augs for kids
One button takedown cutscenes

And now we have paid pre-game DLC being dangled in front of us and ******* ridiculous auto-win incentives.


One hundred percent confirmed. Deux Ex 3 is a joke. Congrats. Cheers for ruining another series. Dunno if I'll even bother pirating it. Got enough generic console shooters unfinished as it is.

Registered to let you know you ruined my day.



Against MY better judgment, I have to respond to this childish troll.

I am one of the original DX fans and an old-school gamer. I am very excited about DX3, and you have no way to justify your absolutism about how it is a "joke." Your laundry list is yet another example of how the Internet turns people into @$$es.



One hundred percent confirmed. Deux Ex 3 is a joke. Congrats. Cheers for ruining another series.



Really? One hundred percent confirmed? How does it feel, being a time-traveler?

I loved the trailers. You call them idiotic. Fine, we disagree.

You call the AI "retarded." I've seen the same clips you have and there isn't enough info to judge it yet... but DX had pretty lame AI as well. Fact is, I can count on one hand the games that have good AI, and (gasp) some of them are even console games! Oh, the horror!

You complain that this is a prequel. Personally, I would have wanted IW redone entirely to create a new launch point for the continuing story, but I see nothing inherently wrong with a prequel. A lot was going on in the backstory to DX, and concurrently with DX. There is ample room for more stories.



"Developed by some studio that has only worked on idiot games for idiots"


Congratulations! You're the great troll, Charlie Brown! Your sweeping judgment about other people's intelligences is without merit or documentation; it is the ultimate in juvenile proclamation.



"Retarded augs for kids"


I notice you use the same words, a lot. Methinks you protest too much.



"Moronic dialogue"



Really? Again, from your time-traveling perspective, you have of course played through the entire game and can judge its literary merit. That's great! Because otherwise you're making yet another sweeping unjustified statement based on the very limited information released thus far. Do you judge books this way, too? Do you glimpse a page and then proclaim the book is "retarded"?

I find posters like you to be the very lowest specimens of the web. I consider the original DX to be one of the very best games ever made, but I don't buy into the cult of Warren (he was intimately involved in IW, lest you forget) and I also refuse to subscribe to the limitless hatred for this newest installation. I like most of what I've seen so far. I have concerns, but as I've stated many times in other threads, it is inconceivable that this game will make the mistakes that IW did. When I read the FAQ and see the released info, for the most part I like it.

Posters like you have turned this place utterly toxic. You don't offer criticism, you just go off on an irrational rage-a-holic rant.

At this point, I don't think EM should release anything else until the game itself, period. I think its a sad commentary that a virtual "meeting place" for fans of a game has become so poisonous and divisive, and I blame the fanatics... most of which come from the absolutist "DX3 will suck" crowd. We don't know if it will suck, be great, or somewhere in the middle, but the fanatics have definitely poisoned the community well.

puzl
1st Dec 2010, 17:43
Watch as this is the last post on the page and gets ignored as soon as page 11 flicks over...

To all those who are criticising the "dissenters" on here on the basis that we can't expect to dictate the direction of this game: please stop. I agree with you! The problem is, you're attacking a straw man, because that's not what the dissenters are saying in the first place. (OK, maybe one or two: but if I scoured the forums for long enough I'm sure I could find someone who thinks Eidos Montreal are all secretly lizards releasing a game that will brainwash with placating messages, enabling them to bend us to their will - so let's not take one or two people as indicative of a whole group, hey?) Sure, I would absolutely freaking love it if Eidos Montreal turned around tomorrow and went "OK, we've heard your complaints, and so we've implemented a toggle to allow you to turn off third person." Seriously, I'd love it. But that's not what this is about.

What this is about is treating your fanbase with respect. The latest example is, of course, cutting up the game and then forcing us to either pre-order or spend extra in order to get the full game - if it was just weapons, I doubt they'd have seen such a backlash, but to cut out a whole mission? Making it worse is the fact that they've cut out a mission that will specifically appeal to long-term Deus Ex fans: it's essentially saying "Big fan of the series? Then pay more than everybody else or commit to buying it on day one!" This isn't even the biggest issue though, it's just the latest one. The biggest issue is, and always has been, communication - or rather, the almost total lack of it. Kyle's been doing what he can - and as I said in my last post, for what it's worth I think Kyle is doing a great job within the excessive limitations placed on him - but the fact is he's not even given the freedom to answer simple questions. Sure, we've had answers to a couple of our questions, but have you seen how many questions have gone unanswered in the questions thread? Some of them would be spoilers, sure, but a lot of them are ridiculously simple - "Will the PC version use the mouse to scroll over and select items like it should?", "Are there any unskippable videos / cutscenes?", "Are there any FMV sequences, or are all cutscenes handled in-engine?"* - or purely gameplay based - for instance, a big one, "How does the regenerating health work exactly?" Why are these questions not being answered? I think it's safe to say that it will not spoil anyone's enjoyment of the game if they know ahead of time whether there will be unskippable cutscenes in the game. Just knowing simple things like this, getting answers to simple questions, would go a lot of way towards reassuring people.

*This one has, technically, been answered - but a long time ago, and recent information seems to contradict that answer, so clarification is needed.

And then there's the Big Questions - I touched on regenerating health above, but the other obvious one is third person. No-one expects these things to change at this late stage of the game (though dear God I would love it if they did) but if we could at least get a genuine, honest, non PR-speak answer to why these features were implemented, and why they were decided to be the right decision for this game - and those answers directed to the straight to the community that's questioning them, not to a magazine or website that we can then happen to stumble across - it'd help. Chances are still people will stick to their opinions - I honestly don't think anything EM say could convince me that third person is a good decision for a Deus Ex game - but at least we'd know that these decisions have been made for good reason, and not just because they're popular mechanics nowadays and will (apparently, theoretically) help sell this game to the Gears of War crowd. These kind of things could - and really should - have been addressed over two years ago when they were first announced. By leaving us in the dark, they've allowed the dislike about these mechanics to fester on here for over two years - and you can all see the result.

Really, the communication throughout has been piss-poor, and that's the crux of the issue - not dictating to EM the direction they take the franchise, just knowing that they acknowledge the fact that the community dislikes certain decisions, and giving us information on why they have chosen to overlook that dislike, and why these elements won't negatively affect the game for those of us who want a game in the vein of Deus Ex, rather than just "a good game" generically. EM have told us time and time and time again that they listen to their fans, but they have never once given us reason to believe this is actually true.

And as for the "vocal minority" argument: give it a break, that argument has more holes than Swiss cheese. Did you go on Rock Paper Scissors yesterday? Did you read the comments? Have you read other gaming forums? Until you can give proof that the majority of people are not only happy with the elements that are controversial on here, but would actively be put off the game if those elements were made optional, then you're making exactly the same assumption (that your view is the majority view) that you're accusing us of making.

By that logic, if you read all the forums who actively said they were gonna boycott MW2 for not including dedicated servers + the myriad of other complaints, you'd think THEY were the majority and the only voice that mattered. Low and behold, it became the fastest selling game ever.. until the next one. I've said it time and time again - this forum represents a very small share of the people who will buy the game. Very, very small indeed.

Go read your average comment/rating at gametrailers for DX:HR and compare it to the attitude in this forum. They're radically different.

I'm not saying either community is right, but you're just assuming that Eidos has to listen to your opinion (and those of people like you in this forum) otherwise they're doing the wrong thing. The exclusive-content thing was just the latest in a long line of nerd-rage fuel for this forum. Pretty much EVERY single detail announced by Eidos has been ripped to shreds by the regulars in this forum. It's no wonder Eidos is keeping things close to their chest, when their own official forum gives the impression that their community hates them - even though its the same handful of people who do all the moaning (and yes, this includes you Ashpolt).

I'll let you into something pretty obvious here: Eidos HAS read all the complaints this forum has highlighted over the last few years, but is continuing to make their own vision of the game anyway. I remember reading that JJB interview once where he said something along the lines of "have you read our forum?!" in relation to criticism and how they respond to it. They know exactly what you have been saying, but have chosen to ignore you. As I say, they're making their game and their vision for it is very different to yours. You can either find a middle ground, or choose not to play it. Sulking and being generally bitter just because they haven't listened to you is just making you and the others like you look like spoilt little children.

I certainly know I wouldn't invest all these years of my life in a game I know i'm going to be disappointed in.

SageSavage
1st Dec 2010, 17:45
I think its a sad commentary that a virtual "meeting place" for fans of a game has become so poisonous and divisive, and I blame the fanatics... most of which come from the absolutist "DX3 will suck" crowd. We don't know if it will suck, be great, or somewhere in the middle, but the fanatics have definitely poisoned the community well.

I don't come from the "DX3 will suck crowd". In fact I have been "on the fence" for years and I still will give it a chance to change my current opinion but at this point said opinion is not merely based on rumours or assumptions anymore. There is official information and from that there's a growing number of things that I don't like at all. That is what has changed and I don't think the "We don't know yet"-argument (that I frequently used myself) is outdated for quite a number of aspects.

@Puzl:
I still boycott MW2 to this day.

Rindill the Red
1st Dec 2010, 17:50
And what type of, to quote, "positive additive endeavor" are you suggesting, Rindill?

I disagree vehemently that we have to somehow earn the attention or respect of this studio. To hell with that! We are the customers, they are the ones who want our money. The only thing we owe them is simple civility, which in truth should be extended to every human being. Other than that, we don't owe them jack sh.it.

I'm not about to go recruit more people to this forum and act as an unpaid marketing TOOL just so Eidos will listen to my complaints. Not a chance in hell.

Every single person on this forum could refuse to buy Deus Ex: Human Revolution and it would still sell thousands if not millions of copies.

What's a few thousand compared to the millions of other gamers out there?

What makes us so special?

We don't owe them anything.

They don't owe us anything either.

In fact there is no reason at all that we would communicate or interact at all, unless someone creates that reason.

SageSavage
1st Dec 2010, 17:57
You underestimate how much impact a number of vocal people can have on "innocent" customers when they are angry enough. It may not be devastating but bad customer reviews, forum posts on general gaming sites and mouth to mouth propaganda sure can have a noticeable impact.