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ZakKa89
26th Nov 2010, 14:04
I am playing trough Deus Ex (still loving it) now on hard difficulty and there are two things that bug me.

First off, the alarms.
It's the future, and guards have to run to some button on the wall to sound the alarm? I have no problem with this early game or in less secure areas, but in the late-game it gets too easy. (sometimes guards in front of you run to the alarm instead of shooting you lol)
So my suggestion for DE HR would be that alarms can be sounded remotely by guards in more secure areas. This would make the stealth more challenging.

Second, camera's.
When a camera spots you in Deus Ex, you have MORE than enough time go out of its vision before the alarm is sounded. So I hope that in DEHR the camera's will sound the alarms a lot faster. Maybe the higher the difficulty setting, the faster the camera's sound the alarm. I believe the Splinter Sell games do this a lot better if i remember correctly.

So basically I think it is too easy avoiding the alarm. Choosing to play the game stealthy should be rewarding because it's challenging, not because it makes the game easier.

Does anybody have any details on alarms and cameras in DEHR? Share your thoughts.

K^2
26th Nov 2010, 14:15
Maybe the higher the difficulty setting, the faster the camera's sound the alarm.
Solid suggestion.

7h30n
26th Nov 2010, 14:34
That is one of the things that Invisible War actually has done better.

Couple of days ago when I started playing IW after original DX it seems to me as if the cameras in IW sound the alarm instantly (that's how slow DX cameras were).

For those who haven't played IW:
- cameras have shorter time interval until sounding off the alarm and I think that time interval was perfect in length

TrickyVein
26th Nov 2010, 15:29
Not to mention the ridiculous, game-breaking "go and hide in a corner until the alarm shuts off and everything turns back to normal" design feature. If AJ trips an alarm in HR, then guards should be permanently put on alert from then on. This will make stealth more challenging as well.

Irate_Iguana
26th Nov 2010, 15:37
Not to mention the ridiculous, game-breaking "go and hide in a corner until the alarm shuts off and everything turns back to normal" design feature. If AJ trips an alarm in HR, then guards should be permanently put on alert from then on. This will make stealth more challenging as well.

They could make it depend on the type of facility and the difficulty level. At the lowest difficulty level in a secure facility you would get one screw-up. At the highest you would find that the guards in a facility come pre-warned. Trip an alarm and they would methodically search the compound.

7h30n
26th Nov 2010, 15:42
Splinter Cell had a good feature which made guards stronger (kevlar, better weapons etc.) each time you triggered an alarm.
Metal Gear Solid 2 also had a nice system when you trigger an alarm patrols would get more guards etc.
Unfortunately the "alert level" would eventually come to zero.

It would be awesome if on "Realistic" difficulty guards would never stop looking for you actively when you trigger an alarm. Something like MGS2's Cautious mode but the one that never ends when you trigger the alarm.

Ashpolt
26th Nov 2010, 15:43
Totally agree about the cameras - I think there should be an ever so slight delay, so not "it got a half second glimpse of my elbow and suddenly SWAT everywhere", but it could certainly do with being shorter than the delay in the original DX, and making it progressively shorter by difficulty level is a good idea.

The bit about alarms though, I'm not so sure - yes it's more realistic to just have them activate the alarm remotely, but having them use the alarm panels did lead to some great emergent gameplay, such as attaching a LAM to a panel, alerting a guard, and then watching him blow himself up! Maybe a nice compromise would be to have guards with walkie-talkies which they will use to call in an alert, but which can be shot out of their hands if you're quick (a la MGS2/3/4) with alarm panels as a backup?

ZakKa89
26th Nov 2010, 16:29
They could make it depend on the type of facility and the difficulty level. At the lowest difficulty level in a secure facility you would get one screw-up. At the highest you would find that the guards in a facility come pre-warned. Trip an alarm and they would methodically search the compound.

O yes, this is exactly what i'm talking about!


Totally agree about the cameras - I think there should be an ever so slight delay, so not "it got a half second glimpse of my elbow and suddenly SWAT everywhere", but it could certainly do with being shorter than the delay in the original DX, and making it progressively shorter by difficulty level is a good idea.

The bit about alarms though, I'm not so sure - yes it's more realistic to just have them activate the alarm remotely, but having them use the alarm panels did lead to some great emergent gameplay, such as attaching a LAM to a panel, alerting a guard, and then watching him blow himself up! Maybe a nice compromise would be to have guards with walkie-talkies which they will use to call in an alert, but which can be shot out of their hands if you're quick (a la MGS2/3/4) with alarm panels as a backup?

Yes, I don't want the alarm panel's to totally disappear either. They should stay in less secure (less difficult) areas.

nomotog
26th Nov 2010, 16:54
The bit about alarms though, I'm not so sure - yes it's more realistic to just have them activate the alarm remotely, but having them use the alarm panels did lead to some great emergent gameplay, such as attaching a LAM to a panel, alerting a guard, and then watching him blow himself up! Maybe a nice compromise would be to have guards with walkie-talkies which they will use to call in an alert, but which can be shot out of their hands if you're quick (a la MGS2/3/4) with alarm panels as a backup?

Ashpolt hit the nail on the head here, but I would add and augment that blocks radios for you.

Pinky_Powers
26th Nov 2010, 17:12
Yeah, I enjoyed that feeling of panic when I saw a guard take off in the direction of an alarm panel, and having to chase him down and kill him before he triggered it. Or hoping that tranqu dart sticking out of his back would drop him before he reached it.


...good times. :D

PlasmaSnake101
26th Nov 2010, 17:26
It would be awesome if on "Realistic" difficulty guards would never stop looking for you actively when you trigger an alarm. Something like MGS2's Cautious mode but the one that never ends when you trigger the alarm.

That sounds wild man, a constant caution mode in Metal Gear Solid 2 would have been hell. A never ending search also wouldn't make much sense in a realistic mind set, I think having a few extra guards doing rounds while a few extra guards watch over key areas, buildings, doors, etc, would be believable and still offer a proper punishment for messing up on stealth play. A never ending caution mode would just be strange, it would be hard to still actively search for a guy after you spent 10 minutes sweeping the area while he was hiding in an air shaft.

Also, since you can activate alarms to lure guards to other areas it would be silly for those guards to search those areas constantly, liking giving a free pass to the level when you hit the first security terminal and have the guards checkout the bathroom while you headshot the leftovers due to economy of force with a stealth pistol. I'd say a 3 to 5 minute tops should suffice after the initial alert dies down. Have enemies with shotguns come out after an alert, those guys were lethal in Metal Gear Solid 2. I wouldn't recommend riot gear unless, to give a Deus Ex example, escaping from the MJ12 labs, it wouldn't make sense on Liberty Island or Battery Park.

Cameras could be like they were in Invisible War, except I'm hoping for a colorized view when you hack into turrets, that black and white vision was a pain. Perhaps even some thermal optics or night vision, the ability to change to all three would be most preferable. I'm also hoping bots would be tuned in to security systems and activate a mini-alert if they've seen you or if you destroyed one without it seeing you. If you destroy it as it looks at you than there should be a full alert. Perhaps in some areas you could dismiss the entire threat of cameras by killing the man in front of the security terminal, like they did in the leaked video. With no one to push buttons it makes sense that some cameras wouldn't go off. They did this in The Nameless Mod and I thought it was a neat idea. You could also limit a total alert in a sense with this too and make it so only guards in the immediate area will know to come together and start searching if they don't have a walkie talkie. This would be appropriate in areas guarded by typical thugs.

Final thought: In Metal Gear Solid 4, the Rat Pack had nano-machines allowing the others to know where enemies were, I guess a signal sent into the brain. That would be neat towards the end. It would make a lot of sense with the Omar or MIBs since they probably have an info-link like JC and Alex.

LeMoN_LiMe
26th Nov 2010, 18:12
Well I thought they looked pretty goofy lol

But as far as sounding the alarm goes, thats the AI so we can only wait and see on that.

The cameras on the other hand I hope are a little better. I mean don't get me wrong, the gameplay in DE:1 was great but I would like to see it a bit more challenging. The thing I never got was how a camera can turn red and make a noise and the guards around still not be alerted? That always seemed kind of funny to me.


But anywho we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

mentalkase
27th Nov 2010, 10:06
Well I thought they looked pretty goofy lol

But as far as sounding the alarm goes, thats the AI so we can only wait and see on that.

The cameras on the other hand I hope are a little better. I mean don't get me wrong, the gameplay in DE:1 was great but I would like to see it a bit more challenging. The thing I never got was how a camera can turn red and make a noise and the guards around still not be alerted? That always seemed kind of funny to me.


But anywho we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

I'm curious to know how HR is handling this issue. I kinda disagree that guards should stay on high alert throughout a level if you're spotted though. Sure if you're spotted, you're spotted - none of this "man in a trenchcoat, going to look" a minute later "oh well, must've been seeing things", but they should just conduct a thorough search for several minutes and then go back to their guard duties, but on a low state of alert, where they still aknowledge that there's someone out there but they couldn't locate him, and radio others to remain aware.

Pinky_Powers
27th Nov 2010, 13:41
We know that in certain places the enemy has a com-link to call in the Boxguard. It makes sense they could call for other reinforcements if available.

ZakKa89
30th Nov 2010, 21:17
We know that in certain places the enemy has a com-link to call in the Boxguard. It makes sense they could call for other reinforcements if available.

This is good to know thanks.

TrickyVein
30th Nov 2010, 21:27
^^ Reinforcement would arrive from where exactly? Elsewhere in the map? What do we know about enemy spawning?

Pinky_Powers
30th Nov 2010, 22:34
^^ Reinforcement would arrive from where exactly? Elsewhere in the map? What do we know about enemy spawning?

The way I'd handle it is simply any NPC you haven't killed will come when called. Someone sounds the alarm, they come running. Seems logical and reasonable enough.

Sechat
3rd Oct 2011, 18:17
Are you guys able to figure out what area/camera/turret/robot has been disarmed when you disable an alarm panel? I tend to play mostly stealthy (after all, Adam is an ex-cop, so I think he would avoid killing when practical), so I disable every alarm panel I can. Is the only function of the alarm panels to give general alert to the guards?

peace sechat

JCpies
3rd Oct 2011, 18:46
You have to hack computers to disable turrets, cameras and bots.

Sechat
3rd Oct 2011, 19:40
yep, definitely hacking security hubs whenever I can....stupid me, I thought that disabling alarm panels would effect the turrets/robots too.

peace, sechat

sonicsidewinder
3rd Oct 2011, 19:53
It would be awesome if on "Realistic" difficulty guards would never stop looking for you actively when you trigger an alarm.

Heehee, You put that thur on porpoise!

:lol:

Kodaemon
3rd Oct 2011, 20:21
You have to hack computers to disable turrets, cameras and bots.

I seem to recall some situations when disabling a panel caused a nearby camera's indicator light to turn red - such a camera would notice me as usual, but wouldn't sound an alarm. I might be wrong though.

JCpies
3rd Oct 2011, 20:25
That's interesting.

pukster
3rd Oct 2011, 21:51
I think you guys need a little more suspension of disbelief.

Why dont they just put cameras on the ceiling and track you constantly?
Why dont they put the patrols around main doors when you are coming in?
Why dont they wait until you are at a load screen, then jump you?
How can jenson have the floor plans to a secret FEMA facility?

the camera and the alarm button are meant to add gameplay elements

ZakKa89
3rd Oct 2011, 22:19
Wow old thread!