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MattAndersn
25th Nov 2010, 19:18
I just read that the augs in this game won't be mutually exclusive like they were in the first two games. Does that mean that you can get every aug in the game or are there still limitations? I always liked that you had to choose certain abilities over others.

sonicsidewinder
25th Nov 2010, 19:24
Think it was said that you can't possibly upgrade everything. There's your 'restriction'.

MattAndersn
25th Nov 2010, 19:29
I only see that as a restriction if all the augs are equally useful, but I guess its something.

Jerion
25th Nov 2010, 19:30
Yes and No. Each aug has it's own upgrade tree. You simply cannot earn enough Praxis points to get every feature of every aug. If you want to really pursue your character's strengths, and improve a cluster (for lack of a better word) of augmentations all the way, then you won't have the ability to expand elsewhere. It's a classic stats dilemma, played out over both individual aug trees and the entire range of base augmentations: Do I go wide and shallow, or do I go narrow and deep?

MattAndersn
25th Nov 2010, 19:35
hmm I guess that is a better system overall then.

This is off topic, but how come people dislike IW? I'm playing through it now for the first time and I think it is superior to the original Deus Ex in a lot of ways.

Fluffis
25th Nov 2010, 19:57
hmm I guess that is a better system overall then.

This is off topic, but how come people dislike IW? I'm playing through it now for the first time and I think it is superior to the original Deus Ex in a lot of ways.


Extremely short levels
Loooong loading times
A lot of loading times
Intrusive HUD
Annoying inventory (personal peeve)
Unified ammo (You run out of one type, you run out of all types)
Unoptimized graphics engine
Badly realized choice/effect system
Many "streamlining" features that were completely unnecessary.


There's more, but these are the things I can think of off-hand.

As a game in its own right, it was pretty good. As a sequel to Deus Ex, it was an abomination.

7h30n
25th Nov 2010, 20:05
hmm I guess that is a better system overall then.

This is off topic, but how come people dislike IW? I'm playing through it now for the first time and I think it is superior to the original Deus Ex in a lot of ways.

I currently playing IW also and I do think in some ways it is superior to originial Deus Ex.

But!

Small levels and constant loading is killing me. When I played original Deus Ex I couldn't stop playing. But in Invisible War just because of small levels and constant loading I can't start playing. The game is constantly reminding me of original Deus Ex and I force myself to play it just for the story. I can't wait to finish it and go back to play original.

Not to mention other problems with the game ...

Overall the game is good and certainly had a lot of potential, but since it's a direct sequel it's hard to look past flaws like that.

OT:

I don't mind that augs aren't mutually exclusive (since you won't be able to get everything), but I hope you won't be able to install new augs on the fly (like in Invisible War). You are going through a level, get a praxis point and suddenly you have cloaking out of nowhere ...
If I remember correctly they mentioned augmentation clinics. I hope that's the only place where you can install new augmentations. (upgrading already acquired ones on the fly is ok)

Mindmute
25th Nov 2010, 20:24
Extremely short levels
Loooong loading times
A lot of loading times
Intrusive HUD
Annoying inventory (personal peeve)
Unified ammo (You run out of one type, you run out of all types)
Unoptimized graphics engine
Badly realized choice/effect system
Many "streamlining" features that were completely unnecessary.


There's more, but these are the things I can think of off-hand.

As a game in its own right, it was pretty good. As a sequel to Deus Ex, it was an abomination.

I'd add a poor plot, poor "factions", shallow characters and ridiculously lackluster endings.




I don't mind that augs aren't mutually exclusive (since you won't be able to get everything), but I hope you won't be able to install new augs on the fly (like in Invisible War). You are going through a level, get a praxis point and suddenly you have cloaking out of nowhere ...
If I remember correctly they mentioned augmentation clinics. I hope that's the only place where you can install new augmentations. (upgrading already acquired ones on the fly is ok)

I'm pretty sure they'd never make the installation of mechanical augs possible on the fly, so I wouldn't worry much about that particular thing.

AlexOfSpades
25th Nov 2010, 20:27
Bad story, bad character design and unified ammo.

The rest was actually better. The inventory wasnt that bad. And i barely noticed the loading.

Fluffis
25th Nov 2010, 20:30
And i barely noticed the loading.

When it came out, or now? When I play it now, the loading screens are bearable... but only just. Back then, they made me want to rip my hair out.

K^2
25th Nov 2010, 20:46
Yes and No. Each aug has it's own upgrade tree. You simply cannot earn enough Praxis points to get every feature of every aug. If you want to really pursue your character's strengths, and improve a cluster (for lack of a better word) of augmentations all the way, then you won't have the ability to expand elsewhere. It's a classic stats dilemma, played out over both individual aug trees and the entire range of base augmentations: Do I go wide and shallow, or do I go narrow and deep?
That's not really the same thing. I like the idea of having a stat tree, rather than simple chain for each augmentation, but a hybrid system, where you first choose the root augmentation, which determines a tree that follows, would have been far better.

Jerion
25th Nov 2010, 21:37
That's not really the same thing. I like the idea of having a stat tree, rather than simple chain for each augmentation, but a hybrid system, where you first choose the root augmentation, which determines a tree that follows, would have been far better.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you want mutually exclusive paths within each aug's upgrade tree?

Fluffis
25th Nov 2010, 21:43
If I'm understanding you correctly, you want mutually exclusive paths within each aug's upgrade tree?

I thought he meant augs being mutually exclusive at root level, and a tree structure for each aug selected. But I could be mistaken.

It's a system I'd like, anyway. :D

K^2
25th Nov 2010, 21:55
^ That. Branches being mutually exclusive wouldn't be too bad either, but as I said, I like the depth-or-breadth aspect of it. If you get to choose one root augmentation per slot, with 2-3 root augmentations available for most slots, and then have an upgrade tree that's unique for each possible augmentation, that would be the best system.

As far as DX/IW system vs HR system, I'm a bit conflicted. Seems like HR system would be easier to exploit, and it doesn't have the same "unique" feel as DX. I know that distinction between optional augs and optional aug upgrades is purely semantic, but it felt right in DX somehow. On the other hand, HR system gives you more flexibility in actually fine-tunning your character, and I'm all about that. A hybrid could have hit both spots for me, but this isn't bad either.

P.S. A situation where two mutually exclusive augs have a shared branch in their upgrade tree could also be used in interesting ways. For example, you probably wouldn't want to go around without hacking at all, so this could be a sub-tree of all augs you can install in the slot, while some other branches might focus more on hacking terminals vs hacking bots, or something, depending on which aug you actually chose.

JackShandy
26th Nov 2010, 11:35
Mmm, I feel like this way could theoretically give you more choice. Imagine you could have chosen any of the original Deus Ex augs, but didn't have enough points to choose them all. Being able to choose stronger lifting AND better punching, or fast running and silent running, could've let you feel more customisable (Assuming it wouldn't have unbalanced the game).

All depends on the implementation, of course.

AlexOfSpades
26th Nov 2010, 11:54
When it came out, or now? When I play it now, the loading screens are bearable... but only just. Back then, they made me want to rip my hair out.

First time i played Invisible War was in this year. :D

People hated it so much i never cared to play it anyway, but then i thought i should just to "complete" my gamer "library".

Irate_Iguana
26th Nov 2010, 12:08
Imagine you could have chosen any of the original Deus Ex augs, but didn't have enough points to choose them all.

Something tells me that you'll have enough points to choose all 21 augs. You wont have enough points to upgrade all 21 augs to full functionality. Depending on the number of 1 point wonders and dumb upgrades you might be able to go a long way towards a jack-of-all-trades master-of-all character. It comes down to balancing and smart design.

Fluffis
26th Nov 2010, 12:48
First time i played Invisible War was in this year. :D

People hated it so much i never cared to play it anyway, but then i thought i should just to "complete" my gamer "library".

I see. That explains why you may not have felt any problems with the loading times. :)

subtlesnake
26th Nov 2010, 13:02
Something tells me that you'll have enough points to choose all 21 augs. You wont have enough points to upgrade all 21 augs to full functionality. Depending on the number of 1 point wonders and dumb upgrades you might be able to go a long way towards a jack-of-all-trades master-of-all character. It comes down to balancing and smart design.
You would still need to buy all the augs, though, and we don't know how expensive they are.

LeMoN_LiMe
26th Nov 2010, 18:15
They already said that you won't have enough points to get every Aug on one playthrough so you'll have to make "choices".

AxiomaticBadger
26th Nov 2010, 20:14
Invisible War was not a good game in the slightest.

-Firstly, and above all, it was buggy as all hell. I almost had to restart the game because it sudenly decided it didn't like the look of my saves.
-Bad graphics. The characters all looked like the terrifying puppets that come in the night and try to eat my soul. This was the game that defined the uncanny valley imo. I honestly thing DE looks better.
-Bad level design.
-Long loading times.
-God awfull voice acting. JC comes across as stoic, but compared to Alex D he's bleedin' Brian Blessed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP11L9jRW94). The only characters who came across as having any type of emotion were the Omar and the friggin' AI jukebox.
-Even worse writing. Seriously. "You're the clone/brother of the universally despised cyborg terrorist who destroyed civilisation that one time" "Huh. Okay."
-An augmentation system completely devoid of any sense of character definition, advancement or reward.
-And last, but by no means least, a set of Endings which managed to completely negate any possibility of a future sequel.

My lucious Beems it's not a bad game.

MattAndersn
27th Nov 2010, 21:07
Well the weapons in IW were way more balanced at least and I felt augs were much more useful.

Pinky_Powers
27th Nov 2010, 22:03
Invisible War was not a good game in the slightest.

Everything you said was a gross exaggeration... save the part about it being buggy. But if you play the game on the platform is was foolishly designed for, then you get a stable experience.

There really should be an award for ridiculousness, but you'll just have to settle for this... :flowers:

LeMoN_LiMe
28th Nov 2010, 01:02
Its a whole different system so we just have to wait and see what it will have.

K^2
28th Nov 2010, 01:23
-And last, but by no means least, a set of Endings which managed to completely negate any possibility of a future sequel.
That's not true. Party ending opened up any number of possibilities for a sequel.

Jerion
28th Nov 2010, 01:31
That's not true. Party ending opened up any number of possibilities for a sequel.

Dance Dance Deus Ex: the gritty cyberpunk dance game set in 2093.

For XBOX 360 Kinect.

Rindill the Red
28th Nov 2010, 02:41
-And last, but by no means least, a set of Endings which managed to completely negate any possibility of a future sequel.

If you can't think of sequels to each of the endings you are just not very creative at all.

You might say that having any "world-changing" multiple endings would make it impossible to have sequels.

JC-HELIOS: A small rebel movement with genetic quirks that make them immune to the democracy-nanites + something goes terribly wrong. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoneHorriblyWrong)

Templar Ending: Religion in government... need I say more?

Omar ending: A hell of a lot happens before the earth is a barren wasteland...
Also, I had an idea of a game that basically involved your character attempting to hunt down and kill all the Omar + the Omar attempt to bring about the end of the world artificially so as to "persuade" the rest of the human race to join them.

Illuminati ending: Essentially the same as any other Deus Ex game... corrupt officials with centralized power... conspiracies, etc.

And this is without moving super far into the future with some sort of setting more similar to Star Trek or Mass Effect. If there is one thing history has taught us, it's that empires rise and fall and that human society is a fickle dynamic thing.